106: People First, with Ryan Pawless

Speaker A: How are the leaders at all levels of management tackling the toughest challenges each day? That's the question, and this podcast is the answer. I'm Rob Fonte, and I'm bringing on the brightest minds in management to share practical solutions to those challenges you're facing. Let's get ready to jam. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Leadership Jam Session podcast. Today's guest is Ryan Paulus, who's the vice president of sales for a large medical device company. Ryan has over 10 years of management experience managing people at all different levels, including managing a global team as a global Director of Commercial Operations. Ryan is here today to talk about his leadership approach, especially related to developing people, and a very unique viewpoint on the balance between empathy versus toxicity, which you'll hear him talk about towards the end of the episode. Ryan, welcome to the Leadership Jam Session.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: I appreciate you coming on. And are you ready to jam?

Speaker B: I am ready to jam.

Speaker A: All right, so let's start off with your leadership philosophy. Maybe you can just share a little bit of your approach to managing people.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, I think the answer is in the question. The approach to managing people. People, in my opinion, matter more than anything. The success of an organization will be defined by its people. So for me, it's people first, nothing is a close second. So for me, it's around finding the right people, finding what's maybe hidden in people, bringing that out of them, investing in people, getting to know people, and ensuring that you're honestly creating an environment for them to, uh, show up, give everything they have, contribute, and to feel successful and rewarded. Um, at the end of the day, you know, when we go to work, we are doing this more than we are doing anything else. You think about a 24 hour given day, you're sleeping six hours. You know, you've got a few hours in the morning, in the evening, and then the bulk of your day is invested into your career. So I've always believed that if I'm going to be in a leadership position, uh, it is my responsibility to make sure that people are happy and want to be here and that I am giving them the best opportunity to be successful. And I think the traditional 40 hour workweek is probably archaic in a thing of past. I mean, people are working 50, 60 hours a week. So I mean, they are spending more time with their peers or working than they are with their spouses or their kids.

Speaker A: Yeah, especially if you're managing people, let's be honest. Right? Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'm constantly getting yelled at by My wife. Are you seriously going to answer the phone right now? Right, so. All right, well, let me ask you this. So, uh, and I actually like the way you kind of laid that out. First step is make sure you got the right people on your team, which is first step, which is very difficult. I mean, let's be honest, a lot of times we inherit the teams, we take over, but, uh, finding the right people is certainly a challenge.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And um, you know, you've got to make sure that when you go to find the right people, I always say interviewing is somebody's typically their best presentation of themselves.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So if you are in an interview process and somebody has not done their research on your company, on your products, on your culture, has not reached out to try to get intel on what it would let look like to work your organization, to me, that's a tell that when they're here, that level of investigation or commitment is probably going to be even less than that. So if they're not bringing their best at the very beginning, uh, typically that's a deal breaker for me.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know what's interesting is a lot of people are. Well, let's take a step back. There's a lot of professional interviewers out there, Right? As you said.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: There are a lot of really great, phenomenal workers that are poor interviewers. Yeah, right. That, um, that get passed over so many times. Uh, it's just interesting, uh, because oftentimes we take the easy path instead of really digging in.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think in those situations you've got to get them comfortable. I've always felt that my interview style is very relaxed. Really want to get to know the individual, want to get to know beyond work. But then if it's work related, and we're trying to find like, does your skillset match what we're hiring for? Over time, if you create a comfortable environment, ask the right questions, get them talking, you get to start listening to the substance of what they're saying and the depth of it versus how articulate it is. And I think to your point, that's where you can really start to differentiate between a professional interviewer and somebody that maybe isn't great in kind of that pressure situation, siloed situation, but does have a tremendous amount to offer. And I've seen that. I've interviewed people that have, um, come across as, you know, not the most articulate. But when you start to dig deep and get the most out of them, there's a lot more there from a substantive standpoint than there is Those people that just can, I have to like to say, they. They talk in circles until you get dizzy m and fall down.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah. I've certainly had a few of those people come through my interviews. But again, you have to kind of take the time and. And really dig in there. It's interesting. I'm very similar. I always tried to create the most relaxing environment. Right. Cause I really wanted to try to learn who they are. But there, as you know, there are those out there that take the opposite approach. They believe in, like, pressure cooker. Right. Uh, let me try to create the most intimidating environment to see how they respond and so forth. Not my style, not my approach. But I know others out there take that approach.

Speaker B: I want them to leave an interview knowing that the person they just spoke with is the personality and the character of the person they're going to work for. Um, so if I'm in an interview and you're putting that type of immense pressure on me early, I can only imagine what it's going to look like when I'm now an employee of yours, how you would treat me. And so if you're going through the process and it's very robotic, you know, you're not. There isn't kind of an emotional connection. There isn't a relational aspect to the interview process. Probably a place I would ask myself, do I want to work for this individual moving forward?

Speaker A: Mm, yeah. It's a great question. And I think what they fail to realize is, yeah, we are interviewing them, but at the same time, if somebody's truly a top performer, top talent, they're interviewing us as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Right. So, all right, so moving on to kind of the way you walked us through your philosophy. And I love how you talk about people first. Right. There's, there's, you know, nothing that's a close second. Love that, that whole philosophy. So in terms of, you know, how you approach your people, what would you say is your superpower?

Speaker B: I like to think that it's getting people to see what they're fully capable of. I've managed so many people that they're in a comfort zone and they don't know that there's more in there. And so it's about this development and kind of self awareness that there's more to offer. You know, putting people on projects that they're uncomfortable, that they don't think they'll be successful at and getting them to see glimmers of, uh, hope and success and venturing into it, uh, putting people's project leads and, uh, Moving them into departments that are completely out of the scope of what they traditionally do. You know, people that are going back to school and getting an education, making sure that we're really intentional about what they're learning and how is it applicable to what they're doing and to make sure that they're not just getting a piece of paper, but they're actually, you know, getting a new skill set. Ultimately, um, I want the people that I've been entrusted to lead to realize their full capabilities and opportunity. And I don't know, I think it's just like an innate human nature. A lot of ways that people don't see themselves for the fullness of who they really are. So it's about getting that out of them and then you see them flourish, which is great. And oftentimes that's led to those individuals no longer working for me. And I'm okay with that. I'll go through the heavy lift of finding the next backfill, the next person, uh, having an open role on my team if it means that somebody has gone on to do bigger and better things.

Speaker A: So, yeah, we were talking yesterday and I was really impressed in terms of what you were sharing with me regarding the amount of people, even within one team that you were able to develop and promote. Because I think you said the team we were talking about yesterday, how many direct reports.

Speaker B: So, uh, my last role I had 19 people that reported to me. And of those 19, uh, 13 of them over the course of five years have been promoted. And then previous to that, in a, um, nine year run, our team or myself, and made President's Club seven of those nine years. And so again, I mean it's, it's a, it really just shows that when you invest in your people, you get the most out of them. Like that success is generated by the people that I'm leading. It's not by me. They're out there doing the heavy lifting and the hard work. And so, yeah, I'm very proud of those statistics because it's also extremely rewarding. I remember the first time I won a President's club and I thought that was the pinnacle of my career. The first time somebody that works for you wins a President's club, that's the pinnacle of a career. Um, and so that's, that's when I knew it was cemented that I wanted to lead people. I wanted to have influence over as many people as possible. And so be careful with your ask for. Yeah, 19 is a lot, but I, but I do think, you know, 13 of those 19, um, being promoted, those were earned promotions. And I think, you know, to kind of piggyback off of that, some may see that as like, well, you just promote everybody. And it's like actually in that time we also had to, you know, let go of three people as well. So there's a, there's accountability, there's a job to be done, there's excellence that's, you know, expected. But if you're doing that and you're being developed, there's certainly opportunity.

Speaker A: So. All right, so before we dive into, you know, how you, because that truly is your superpower, developing people, investing the time into them. But I know there are a few, I know there's probably several of you out there wondering how on earth can you manage 19 people? So let's just talk about that for a little bit because I know this is a common theme in the medical device space where there's, you know, larger, the span of control is larger. Which in my opinion, uh, you know, again, any span of control should be anywhere between six and eight. Yeah.

Speaker B: Depending on the role.

Speaker A: But again, I know that this is a common theme, uh, in medical device. So let me ask you, how do you manage 19 people, let alone even like get to their development? Because developing people takes time in itself.

Speaker B: Well, fortunately it was a global team, so time zones were in my favor. Maybe not my favor, but in their favor. Right? Because if you're talking to somebody in Singapore, you're up at 8 o' clock at night, when it's 8 or 9 o' clock in their morning, and you know, six hour difference in Brussels, etc. So really it's a, I mean a, it's about making sure that you're intentional with your time, you know, so you, you don't cancel the one on ones that you have set up. You make sure that you've got an agenda going into your one on ones. You make sure there's enough time for hearing from them that it's not about what you want to get accomplished in the call. And then you've got to, outside of that really intentional time, you've got to set up, you know, leadership pods. So you take somebody that is a project lead and you say, okay, on this particular project, like, you know, these three people, they don't report to you as far as end of the year performance reviews, but they're going to you for the next three months and you think about what that's doing, that's giving an um, opportunity to lead. Right? So they're gonna have to be making decisions that they would maybe more feel more comfortable letting somebody else make. And then they're also learning about people, leadership and that dynamic that not everybody looks and feels and operates like them. So yeah, it's, it's a bit of a dance to do it. To do it well, there's a lot of self sacrifice in that, but it's, it doesn't feel like sacrifice when it's really rewarding and you're getting to hear from people and they're getting to talk about new skill sets they're developing or new ways they're seeing the business or new opportunities that they want to pursue. I mean, it's extremely gratifying.

Speaker A: So a couple things there, the time zones definitely help that. Uh, that's for sure. Right. I do remember even when I had a team out on the west coast, I would, you know, talk to them on my drive home and so forth. Does that does help. But I think the most important thing that you said was the being very intention about it. You almost have to be in order to do it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And going back to the development piece. So how do you approach developing your employees? Because that in itself takes a lot of time. Uh, and with the amount of people that you have, um, I'm assuming people have different, you know, goals and ambition. Some maybe with enroll. Some may not even realize. They don't even realize what path. So how do you approach developing employees?

Speaker B: Uh, it is interesting. I through different times in my career, the individuals that I've led have been in their mid to early 30s, which I think development's a little bit easier. They're eager, they're hungry for it.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: But I'm in a current situation right now where the average age on the team is probably in the late 50s, early 60s. So, you know, a decade older than myself. And so it doesn't mean that you're ever too old to be developed. Right. So I think that's one of the things that I also challenge the team with, is that, you know, you can be on the back end of your career and this is the role that you want to do. You're not looking for opportunity, you're not looking for promotion. Okay, well what skill set in that role can we develop that's going to make you better?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, like, is it contracting? Because that's what's slowing you down on your tote, on your sales cycle. Then let me help you understand contracting because there's a P and L side to it. There's an roi. You know, there's an investment of the organization. There's an expectation that we have of the customer. Like, let me help you manage that. So let's spend time in, you know, developing you there. If it's a new skill set, like, we've got tremendous amount of resources that somebody can, we can invest into from learning new software, new programs. I mean, in the last five years, I think I've sent three people to school, um, to learn a new CRM software to bring back to the organization and develop them. Um, there. So now think about it. I mean, you think about replaceability. They're not only managing one platform, they solely own a new platform and be rolling out to the organization. I mean, that makes them indispensable. So, you know, those are the ways that I look at and it's really challenging them on, you know, where are they currently at, what do they want to do? And then finding a sweet spot for them with development. But it all starts with developing relationship first. You've got to get to know your people. You've got to get to know spouses, kids, names. You know, be intentional. You know, I. The vast majority of today was catching up with my team coming off of Thanksgiving. And it wasn't about, you know, the numbers we posted last week. It was like, what did you do? Where were you? You know, how was your friends giving? Like, how was vacation? And, you know, Those calls run 30, 45 minutes and you hang up and you think like, you didn't talk about numbers once. But what I do know is that I got to know more about them and they probably felt really comfortable thinking like, wow, that was a breath of fresh air. You know, he wasn't just, you know, hammering on me to hit performance numbers as we finish up Q4 here.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think a lot of leaders fail to realize that in order to get to performance. Can't do it without your people. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Speaker B: And you have to be. We talk about intentional. It's gotta be authentic. Um, you know, I'll give you an example. I. I received a, an email and it was M in the title. Happy Thanksgiving. And the opening line is like, I just want to let you guys know how thankful I am for you. Um, and we've got large quota to hit going into the last month of the year. This email's not about numbers, but since we're on the topic of numbers and the next two paragraphs were about the numbers that we needed to hit. And it was just, it was so inauthentic about that opening line was almost like, what you know, you need to say, because it's the holiday we're celebrating.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And um, you know, I certainly didn't interpret it as somebody that was genuinely like, hey, I hope you had a, I hope you had a good Thanksgiving. You know, like, I interpret that as you emailed me on Thanksgiving and wanted to talk about numbers on my time off that I'm spending with my family. So authenticity is huge. Your team has to be able to trust you. They have to know your real intentions. They have to know, you know, I wear my heart on my sleeve. So I don't think it's very hard for my team, but they've got to know genuinely who you are and what your expectations are to be able to thrive.

Speaker A: Mhm. Totally agree. And you know, it is kind of like the little things that makes the job worth it. Right. Such as somebody winning an award or getting a female like that. Right. Uh, or getting somebody promoted knowing that they worked really hard to get there and just going back to the development piece, uh, was there any. So I do completely agree with you. I think a lot of managers miss, uh, they, they miss the point of developing from the standpoint of that they fall into the trap of thinking that developing employees means that it's developing them towards another career track, when in fact it may include that, but it should always include developing within your current role, such as what you said, you know, what additional skill sets can you learn that's going to help you within your role. Right. Uh, regardless of how old you are, how long you've been doing it. But I am curious, any, any, um, anything that stood out to you, you know, in terms of, of that team that you developed, the 13, uh, promotions, anyone that stood out to you, Any, any, any particular scenario that was more challenging that you or, uh, because I'm assuming you're approaching each person a little bit differently too.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Well, so one thing that's unique is, um, you know, if you're in corporate America, there is a subset of goals that you have to develop in the beginning of the year and that you're accountable to at the end of the year. So one thing I do is, you know, we traditionally have four goals at the company I currently work for. I always ask the team to create a fifth goal and it's a development goal. Uh, so I challenge them to think about where they want to be developed. And sometimes it's public speaking. And so we'll invest a part of our budget on public speaking courses. Sometimes it's, you know, on, uh, selling Technique. Right. So we'll invest in selling skills for those folks, understanding data and analytics, whatever it may be. So I mean it could be full blown getting your master's degree, you know. But I challenge the team to have a annual development goal that I want them to wait equally with the goals of the organization. So I think that's what is the Kickstarter and the foundation then to answer your question, around like some memorable ones. Yeah, there, there's folks that were very uh, introverted and quiet and were doing a lot of just uh, remedial administrative tasks and put them on a team. A ah, sales training team. I was like, I, you, I think you have this in you. I just don't think you believe in yourself. And now they are a crucial part of our sales training team from um, organizing it, taking on parts of the leadership of the trainings. And um, it's, they've, they've flourished. And what it does is it just, it shows somebody that there's an opportunity kind of break through that glass ceiling of their current role and to look beyond what they're currently doing. So uh, that's one that you know, she was, she did not believe she could do it. I've had folks that I wanted to promote into people leadership and they've like, I've never led people. I just don't think that that's my gifting. It's a lot of work and I'm like, but you're incredible with your peers. And then you start to lay out those examples and then you push them into the opportunity. I mean they have to say yes, ultimately. But then you look up in 10 years later and like they're the best manager in the organization.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: There's a lot of opportunities like that, that, that I've been a part of that are just a lot of fun to reflect on. And I mean those are the successes that I'll look back on in my career and be the most proud of is you know, the success of the people that I've had an opportunity to work with.

Speaker A: And you know, you, you, you shared something with me yesterday and you mentioned it briefly here and I want to just go back to it about there are a lot of, you know, individuals, employees that do go for advanced degrees and masters and. But you shared with me something yesterday that I haven't really heard any manager do from a development standpoint, which is, you know, as you're going through the schooling, you also leverage that in your, in your development discussions. Is that right?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean a Typical master's program. I think courses run like every six, six to eight weeks. So two weeks coming out of whatever semester they're in, I'll set up a, a one on one, a pretty lengthy one on one, you know, 90 minutes to two hours. And I want to know what they've learned. Um, and then there's another side to it. I want to know how they're going to apply it to the current job they're doing or to a future opportunity that they're looking at. So it needs to be applicable to the role they're in. And it really challenges them when they're in, in their classroom to think about. It's not just about passing a test. It's not about getting a piece of paper. It's about a skill set that I'm going to bring back to an organization, whether it be the company that, you know, they work with me today or wherever they go in their career. And so I give a lot of breathing room, a lot of just ask a couple of questions, get them talking. I get them to really think through, you know, kind of critically think through. If I'm going to make this investment of time and money, what is the back end benefit of this?

Speaker A: Yeah. So again, I don't think, uh, I know a lot of employees that have gone on and worked with employees, peers that, that go through, you know, whether it's a master's or additional schooling. But I think that is really important where the manager is involved, asking them, um, you know, what they've learned or how they're going to apply it in their current role. So it goes back to two things that you just said. The first is having the goal, the development goal, but then it's, it's holding your people accountable to it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Regardless what they're working on.

Speaker B: It's a nice kind of layered approach to getting to people to start to, um, internalize their own development. I also see individuals too, that they're selfless. Like, they wake up and they think about the organization first. They think about their peers or the teams they're leading. And they need to be selfish in some regard about their own development if they want to continue to succeed. Especially if they're really, really good. I mean, think about it. If they're a people leader and they excel, like I want them to continue to develop so that they can have more influence over a larger group of people. I mean, if you're a regional sales director, you may lead 10 to 12 people. If you're an area vice president, you may lead 75 to 100.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I want our best to have bigger, broader influence over more people.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm just curious, you know, because a lot of managers, particularly newer managers that we work with, struggle with. Well, how often should you be having development discussions? And I'm just curious, you know, how often do you, is it whenever you have your one on ones, is it you just review that monthly with them?

Speaker B: So typically we do a quarterly goal review, um, you know, progression towards our goals. Because not all the goals that you set out at the beginning of the year are going to be accomplished in the first quarter. So we layer them in when we think we're going to, you know, hit those milestones. And so the beauty of having a development goal is that every time you intentionally talk about how you're progressing for your goals, you talk about development. So at a minimum once a quarter and then we, so that's informally. And then formally the current organization I'm at, we twice a year have to do a written goal review.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it'd be a minimum touch point of two times and then typically, you know, four to five.

Speaker A: Well, I'm glad you brought that up. And that was part of the reason for bringing it up was to shed light on the fact that unfortunately many managers only, you know, talk about development either once or twice a year. And when it's. Yeah, when it's, you know, mandated by the organization, the reality is it should be happening a lot more than that, such as you are. Right. So yeah.

Speaker B: And again it's when you kick off your conversation, I mean you have to ask yourself when you're having a one on one with an employee, like is this call gonna just be all about what you want to accomplish or is it going to possibly be about what they want to talk about? A lot of times they want to talk about things that are exciting in their life, like areas they're developing, the breakthroughs they're having, sharing their successes. I mean those should be exciting to you as a manager.

Speaker A: Well, and there is a lot of data behind this where a uh, direct correlation to employee development to uh, performance as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Just from a level of engagement. So and, and particularly you know, with, with Millennials, M for sure. And even the uh, the Gen Zs, you know, development is a big part of what motivates them.

Speaker B: And you know, people have aspirations of, you know, working through, kind of climbing the corporate ladder or working through different positions, organization, even if they're lateral, but just kind of broadening their skill set like you want to focus on their development because if they don't find it in their current organization, look, go somewhere else where people are willing to invest in that. Yeah, right. So, you know, for me, if I'm interviewing, that's one of the things that, you know, it's kind of always the, you know, cliche end of interview. Do you have any questions for us? A lot of people want to know, like, what's the pay of the job? You know, what's your pto? You know, exactly. Uh, you know, the current state of a territory or region. Like for me it's like, what are you guys doing as an organization to intentionally develop your people. Yeah. And then that sheds a lot of light on a company, on where they're headed and what their focus is.

Speaker A: Mhm. So true. Let me, let me ask you this, because this is one that I think a lot of managers struggle with. Talked about the tenured individuals, um, employees, the ones that, you know, may have no desire to do anything else, which is perfectly fine. Yeah. But some of them also are the ones that, that will sit there and say, you know, I've been doing this a long time, I don't need any more development. Even I'm there in my current role.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I'm just curious, how do you approach those discussions?

Speaker B: So I think the, the, their development is going to be probably on a much smaller scale.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: So if somebody's been enrolled for a long time, it's like development could be what's your PowerPoint presentation capabilities as far as building them and delivering them? It m. Could be something as simple as that. It could be, you know, how do you summarize clinical data and put that into a presentation form, a format, email a surgeon on, uh, trying to give them a glimpse into why they should consider your products. It could be Excel. You know, how, you know, efficient are you at navigating formulas in Excel spreadsheets?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: It could be CRM tools. You know, I think development, we always think of it kind of like on this grandiose stage of like, we're gonna go learn a whole new skill set. It can be something small that just makes somebody, you know, 1% better at their job. Um, what I like about development, regardless of the size or the opportunity for development, is that you have people actively engaged in learning and so their brains are working, their, you know, synapses are firing and they're, you know, something new is coming to them because typically what happens is they're in an environment to learn something new. Maybe, just maybe it changes their Perspective on a call where they think they've got it all figured out and they hear a new approach or a new way of thinking about something, they go, huh, maybe that does work. That's wrong. Um, yeah, so, yeah, getting them open minded. But um, yeah, so that's, I mean that's how you tackle that. And I've had that scenario.

Speaker A: Goodness.

Speaker B: I could think of probably half a dozen names right off the bat of folks that are like, I don't want to go anywhere else in my career. I am happy. This is what I want to do. Then I'm like, well, great, that's right. And let's develop you here.

Speaker A: Totally agree. And I love that you served it up too because I think a lot of managers do get lost in this. It's, it's some big grand thing. But the reality is when we're dealing with this population, you're right. It's, it's the small things. Right. It's what day to day coaching should look like.

Speaker B: Another key component development that's happening that I think individuals don't necessarily understand is that as an employee you're always building your brand. And so, you know, if you're somebody who is wanting to be developed, I mean that becomes very recognizable that you're willing to put yourself out there, you're willing to operate in a space of uncertainty, but you're also looking to refine your skills. And I think that becomes very attractive to employees. And so, you know, I tell anybody that I work with, you know, works for me or that you know, or is, you know, kind of ladder down onto other teams is that, you know, every day when you wake up and you work for an organization, like you're building a brand and you have a reputation that people are starting to think about who you are and how you carry yourself. And that's really, really important. So that's also something that's about development. I think there's a, a self awareness piece of development that needs to happen and also kind of uh, an emotional acuity like an EQ piece that people certainly need to develop as well. So it doesn't always have to be like this real tangible. Like now I can read a P and L sometimes development around self awareness, um, or eq, you, uh, know, or business, you know, it doesn't always have to be like a business acumen type development that there's so many different variations development that can happen.

Speaker A: In most cases that's what holds you back.

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. So I'm really glad you brought that up. So the development piece is not only about the skill itself, it could be about the behaviors around that. Right, Right.

Speaker B: Yeah. And to that, I mean, you think about the behaviors around, you know, building a brand. I mean, are you the employee that when we do a product launch, is the last to sell it because you want to see how your peers did, whether it's going to, you know, succeed or fail. When we need somebody to lead a sales training course, you're the first one to put your hand up and say, like, I'll do that. Right. You know, those types of, uh, things where you're willing to say, you know, I'm here beyond what you've hired me to do. I'm willing to take a risk, I'm willing to be a part of a pilot project, whatever it may be. Those things stick around. And when it comes time for promotion, I think it's sad. As I've interviewed people for management level and above jobs, they don't get it. They don't realize how much their brand hurt that opportunity. Because to your point, they may be qualified on paper, but it's about the person and how they've carried themselves. I mean, are you the one in a down quarter that just goes completely negative? Are you the one that, you know, you have empathy, you hear your peers, you know, it's a tough quarter, you're living it too, but you find a way to spend it positive and tell them it's, you know, it. This is a short run, like one quarter of a four quarter year. Like we're going to bounce back from this, you know, and then start to be more of a solution oriented person. I mean, you can't be so optimistic that it's unrealistic.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know what? You should know the difference between when somebody is down and out, needs a pep talk and you're the person that can do that and instead of joining in on it.

Speaker A: There's been, uh, several employees where I've developed m. The development for them had nothing to do with their skills. It was more about the behaviors that was holding them back from getting promoted or developing towards another position. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you have a philosophy that ties into this, related to empathy and toxicity, right?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: You want to share a little bit of that?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think as you're building relationships with the teams that you're leading, the people you work with, you do have to establish the fine line between, you know, you hear this term, it's a buzzword a lot around leadership about being empathetic. And I agree, you do need to be an empathetic leader in many ways, but there is a line between empathy and toxicity. And it's about somebody having a bad day and hearing them out or going through a challenging situation, or maybe they lost a sale or lost an account that they've had for years or missed out an opportunity. I mean, it's a myriad reasons that could happen.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you want to be empathetic, you want to hear them out, you want to be supportive, you want to be encouraging, you want to talk about, like, where do we go next? But that can't continue. Right. Like a bad day can't turn into a bad week and turn into a bad month. Like, you have to know when it's becoming toxic. And it's no longer about you being supportive. And you've got to have a hard conversation. They're, uh, like, listen, you know, Rob, we've talked about this multiple times. Like, I know it was, uh, it was a rough Q1. We're in Q3. Like, we've got to bounce back. We've got to find a way to recover. And let me help you do that, because if not, like, you're getting in a rut that you may not be able to get out of. Um, and so it's. I've used that. I've been in people leadership goodness now for 10 plus years. And I have from early, early on realized that if you let that kind of empathetic leadership go on too long, it can become toxic. And what's tough is when it becomes top toxic in the field or in an office, it spreads quick and it's really, really hard to get rid of.

Speaker A: Yeah. I loved how you just talk about this because. And you know, as I reflect back, I certainly struggled with this in the beginning. Right. Uh, because. Because we are. We're all taught we do need to be empathetic leaders. Yeah. But how you kind of talked about that is a little bit different. Where it can become toxic. I just never seen it that way or thought about it from that point of view, but it makes total sense. And you can see it as you reflect. As I reflect and think back, I'm like, there are times where I was, you know, I should have. I should have been much more direct sooner and held on too long. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that's it. That's the key is, like, we hold on too long of wanting to empathize with our people given the current situation. And you have got to help them understand that, like, we can't continue to live in this Current situation, we have got to find a way out of it. And then that. And then when you do that, a lot of times that's a light bulb moment for them. And that strengthen, Strengthens your relationship. It gives them some cues on how to handle it the next time. I mean, there's a lot of positive that can come out of it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it is, it's a delicate balance. It's a fine, It's a fine line. Right. Cause you do want to be empathetic, but at what point is it too much? Right, right. So. And it's hard. But I think this goes back to what you were talking about before. This is where you do need to invest time to get to know your people and you'll figure out, you know, what is best for them. And that might be. Yeah, it's time to kind of reign them in.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's, I mean, to your point, it is time. I mean, it's like in your very first conversation, you don't want to just start hammering them on, you know, all the things that they could have done different. Like, you're sitting, you're listening, you're. You're making sure that it's about them. You want to make sure they feel supported and comfortable. Um, but then over time, you want to readdress it and come back to that and say, like, hey, you know, when this happened and it was a situation that you weren't happy with, you know, had you thought about this? Did you do those things? And then you start to address it, and so you've allowed their emotions to cool down. You allow them to be a little bit more reflective. Um, but if you don't address it and you don't look to be solution oriented and you just let them continue to run with the negativity, it's really, really hard to pull them back.

Speaker A: Yeah, completely agree. Well, I think there's no better spot than there to end. To end it. So I, um, appreciate you coming on Ryan, and sharing some of your journey and your best practices with all. All my listeners. Appreciate it.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, appreciate the opportunity. You know, definitely feel, um, blessed to be asked. It's not something that I get asked to do a lot. I think, you know, a lot of times you just wake up and you just want to leave the best of your ability. You want to invest into your people and, and really, do you get a chance to sit down and talk through, you know, the philosophy and the way you do it? You know, I'm not somebody that has, like, my resume readily updated and practice my interview skills. Like, I just wake up and look to be the best version of myself. I tell my kids all the time, you don't have to be the best, but you got to be the best version of yourself. And so, you know, rarely do I get to sit down and kind of verbalize the things that I'm trying to do on a daily basis. To lead.

Speaker A: Well, yeah. Well, I mean, think about it. I mean, just in this conversation, if we as leaders did. Did more of this, I mean, look how much we just learned from each other.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So thank you very much for the opportunity.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thanks so much for listening today. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to share it with a friend or colleague who you think might also get some value from it. I'm, um, Rob Fonte and I'll see you on the next episode of the Leadership Jam Session podcast.