S3E31 - Nayan Patel, SVP of Transformation and Technology

Speaker A: Welcome to the Keeping It Real podcast. This podcast features honest and transparent conversations about what it takes to manage corporate technology and expenses today. Each episode, listen to true and personal stories from IT professionals who are working hard to make sure their business stays connected and competitive. I'm, um, your host, Jethro Castillo, and let's meet our next guest.

Speaker B: Today I am joined by Nayan Patel, Senior Vice President of Transformation and Technology at uh, Finthrive, and a former hospital CIO with expertise in IT strategy, governance, M and A revenue cycle management and business operations. He has held executive leadership roles at multiple hospital systems, like I said earlier, supporting physician, nursing and community leaders. Nayan, thanks for being on the podcast.

Speaker C: Uh, it's an honor to be here.

Speaker B: So, uh, you know, as all good stories are, let's start from the beginning. How did you kind of get started in the world of it? Know it.

Speaker C: It started when I was in high school when I inherited my, my dad's 74 Ford Gran Torino. It came with an AM radio. Right. So it was just an AM radio, one speaker. That's all it had in the car. And so I said, uh, that's not going to work for me, you know, I need something, you know. So I went to the local car shop and got a, uh, FM radio with the cassette deck right at that time. So I had. And I went through the exercise of taking that existing system out, putting that in and adding two speakers and kind of getting into the tech side of the things best ways. So I learned how to do that. And pretty much ever since then, I've been more into technology. And I'll say that I've got a little bit more math skills than English skills, so. Math skills a little more.

Speaker B: So in high school, you're like, I want to listen to good music. And it was, it was that. That kind of converted you to going into, into tech in that focus.

Speaker C: Yeah. And then that led me into, uh, getting a degree in electrical engineering.

Speaker B: I love that story. That's a really cool story of just, I wanted to improve my life and I realized I could improve my life in this way. And then it kind of was like, I'm going to take that all the way post, post college. Right. You had studied and I, I'm assuming that you had electrical engineering all the way through. You didn't like pivot? Maybe you did and you can let me know. Um, but what kind of like was the career path after that? What did it look like for you?

Speaker C: So, um, I actually ended up getting a master's in electrical Engineering, um, and I went from um, analog, which I did not like, I kind of hated, and I went to digital. So that's kind of where I started. But as soon as I started working I realized that I wasn't somebody who would just sit in front of a computer all day, even though that's what we do at virtual. But um, I recognized that I was a people person. So within the first year of m starting my career, I actually got an mba. So I started getting an MBA part time while I was working and that got me more into the business side of operations and where I moved into eventually more technology management role. So always been involved in tech companies. I was in semiconductors the first 10 years. In the last 20 years I've been in hospital IT. So that's kind of where I've always been more in the technology management side.

Speaker B: When it comes to kind of CIOs, vice presidents, especially in the IT tech world, a lot of people are like, I fell in love with tech at an early age and then later on I had to learn to transition into a role that required to be more people oriented. Have a seat at the table and talk about both, both tech, which I'm obsessed with and passionate about, but also be able to translate that with business needs and vice versa and be able to tell that to your team. Obviously you had just mentioned you had kind of started that from the jump, that you always knew you were a people person and, and you like technology. Um, but you got an MBA literally straight out of when you, as soon as you could. Right. And so clearly there was an interest for you to be a people oriented person, be a business. What? Um, I mean it's kind of a two pronged question or maybe even not a question at all. But where did that, where did you realize your love for people? But also what is it like in the industry of IT and tech to also be the person who isn't just in the basement coding and developing, but also interacting with people and learning what the business needs are that, what is that like?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, you know, you gotta figure out what you love to do. And um, early in my career as well as, even when I was in college, I was that person who took the lead on many things, whether it was starting with the intramural team or when I was in the, you know, when I, uh, started in the workspace, I would join nonprofit professional organizations who are bridging the gap between the industry and the technology. And so getting involved is what I started to do. And that is where, you know, I was involved, I love talking to people. And then it was, you know, the more you learn about the industry that you're involved in, especially when I moved into healthcare, you know, I attended a lot of events, but I learned the terminology and then tried to tie it back to the technology. Right. So it's really focusing on the business outcomes and then really taking back to the leaders. What do you really care about? Right. And you then ask a lot of questions and eventually you can see what matters and then making sure that the conversations you're having ties back to business outcomes.

Speaker B: Yeah. I'm going to ask this a little bit, uh, counterintuitively, but did it have to be tech for you? If it was business problems in general, could it have been any problem from any aspect of the business or is there an aspect to like. I also really, really. I mean, you did study electrical engineering, so there is a huge part to that. But could it have been solving business problems, solving problems for people in general, or is there a tech component that's like crucial to this as well?

Speaker C: I think, um, it is about just solving business problems in general. But I think the tech side of it comes to me is because when you're in a technology role or when you have go down getting any kind of engineering degree, that's what you're really doing. You're a problem solver. Right. And, and, and when you think about designing, whatever it is, whether it's any engineering that you're a part of, you're trying to build something that is solving a problem or gets in a result of doing something, whether it's mechanical, electrical, chemical, and you're putting something together and you're solving the problem, you're addressing something. And so I think that side of it, I'll say for me is I, I want something about the TED side of it. Like, that is what does drive me. That's where my passion is. If it's not techie or somewhat techy, I probably wouldn't be as interested in it. Like, uh, I'm just naturally interested to more technology.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, cool. And so speaking of technology, it, who, uh, it's moving faster than ever and it will only move faster. What are you excited about? What are you concerned about? Um, and where do you kind of go to stay up to date with all of these things? So you know what to be excited about and worried about?

Speaker C: Well, there's, there's so much out there and it's hard. The, the concerns are around filtering out the noise. Right. It's There's a lot of stuff out there and it's hard to figure out what is going to be relevant to you. And this is where you have to get out there and read. Right. So one of my mantras is reading to the mind is like exercises to the body. Right. So you just always need to be reading. What you read is a challenge. Where do you read? Right. And how do you stay adept to so many. There's just information out there in so many paths. So I've got a few places that, you know, I've kind of now tied to really my industry. And so when I look at, there's organizations, like, there's major conferences, right. That we go to, whether it's the HIMS Organization, Chime Beckers, Vive, and now there's an organization called this Week Health. All of these different platforms produce different types of either newsletters or online content. And so I subscribe to some of those things and then I filter out and read, start with the articles that interest me the most by title. Right. And then I try to at least read something every week, almost every day, if I honestly and utilize that. And, um, now I actually tie it back to a newsletter that I published.

Speaker B: Oh, lovely.

Speaker C: Yeah. So I started a newsletter about three months ago, maybe four months now. And it's my optimistic yet pragmatic view on technology, leadership in life. And so I. It's my view is that, you know, you. That the oak, um, adage of is the glass half full or half empty. I say the glass is full. TGIF is my acronym. The glass is full, half full of water and half full of air. And you need both to survive. But then I take from all these articles, right. Every two weeks is my goal to publish something. And because there's always something that you can provide and share knowledge with.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so it, it almost forces me to make sure I'm reading so that I have something that I can share.

Speaker B: I.

Speaker C: It's a very brief kind of update. So that's what I do.

Speaker B: No, but I think that is something that helps me at least. Like, I, I struggle with learning generally, unless I know how to apply it. If you're teaching, you have to learn so that you can actually just teach. And so it becomes like this cool cycle of, like, if I'm going to teach or share, I need to, like, read things so that I can share and learn those things. And then when I share things, there are things I want to learn more about. And so I want to read more about those things so it becomes that cycle. I also want to say I appreciate, uh, a lot of times I ask this question and people are like, oh, I have to read more. And I'm like, no. But the, the actual difficult part of that question is, where do you read and how do you read and how do you split that off and learn how to read? So I really appreciate you kind of being like, okay, no, this is where I kind of go to, to understand how to read that. Um, but I really like hearing this whole idea of. And, and I think this is it in general, but the whole idea of continuous learning, right in, in an industry, as fast as it. You can't just be like, okay, I learned something 10 years ago and it will apply forever, so I don't have to learn anymore. You really have to learn every day, every week, every month, to kind of stay up to date with everything that's going on in our industry. For sure.

Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, you can also, you know, find. Sometimes you might find an interesting article based on the title. It's catchy. Right. And so the problem with some of these articles is they rate books. Like, I don't have time for reading a lot. So then I'll cut, I'll. I'll literally punch that site into, you know, co pilot or whatever and just summarize, give me the three takeaways from this thing. And I get that in, you know, 10 seconds or whatever, five seconds. And then I'm like, okay, if that summary has value, then I'll read the article. More detail. Right? Because we're inundated with too much information today. And so it has to, you know, the content that gets put in front of us has to hit on, on point right away or within a few seconds or max, 30 seconds right after. At some point, we're just ready to move on.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that is kind of, um, the name of the game today, which is the, uh, the attention economy. It's just, do you have what it takes to draw that person for three seconds and then 30 seconds and then a minute and five minutes, then 10 minutes for it to feel worth reading the book or the article or anything like that? So it is when in the world that. And I wish it wasn't like this, right. I wish that we just got really good information all the time. But the truth is there's a lot of noise, right? So figuring out how to filter through the noise.

Speaker C: One other thing that I've been blessed with is to be a part of, uh, one of these book summary applications that I have access To So, um, in my new role, I love the fact that I go to work every day because my commute to work is listening to these.

Speaker B: That's awesome.

Speaker C: Okay. So I uh, you know, I get these 20 minute book summaries or 10 to 20 minutes, whatever they might be. And that's another way, an avenue that I learned from and you know, and I'll voice to text any talking points I can get out of there too on my drive. So I enjoy my drive and my commute now. Um, and I'm. Sometimes I, you know, will take a longer route home, so I can make sure.

Speaker B: That's awesome. No, I love that. That's really, really cool. Taking the I. It's kind of the idea of maximizing everything, uh, maximizing all the things you're doing in your life.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: If you're gonna have this long commute, might as well, might as well learn. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: What is kind of in your role one, uh, of the, some of the challenges that you're facing and how are you kind of choosing to tackle those challenges?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think we kind of hit upon it right now that uh, there's so much noise and so much information. So within our roles in the workplace, it's the same thing. There's so many things we can do. Our company focuses on the revenue cycle world right now for hospitals and you know, hospitals are challenged. And I've been from a hospital for the last 20 years, so I'm eager to see how we can help hospitals. And there are so many different pieces of the revenue cycle world and how hospitals get their um, dollars brought into the hospitals. You break it apart in so many different pieces, but you gotta just kind of pick and choose and prioritize which ones are going to give you the most bang for the buck. I think that's always a hard challenge is what do you prioritize first? Right. And so now we're, you know, really tying it back to like what's revenue generate or what is the most impact, um, down to patient care. Are you going to impact patient care or is it going to bring in dollars somehow? And if you can just simplify the linkage that helps you with the prioritization.

Speaker B: I think that was going to be my next question. And would you say it's as simple as whichever brings in the most roi? And that becomes a more complicated question, but how do you prioritize it and tech?

Speaker C: Yeah, I wouldn't even go to roi because ROI is all over the place. Sometimes it's just focus on the revenue side. Right. You know, uh, now there are some things that you have to do that are process oriented and that like when I was in running hospital for as a PI, we had infrastructure deals, like we had to deal with data center stuff all the time. Right. I'm buying new equipment. There's no real ROI behind that, but that's the cost of doing business. And so you have to make sure you're staying on top of it, that what you're doing in that sense is reducing risk if something breaks. Right. You have to make sure you keep your equipment up to date. It's like driving a car. You're likely not going to keep a car maybe beyond 23, 25 years because you want to make sure the car has later technology, more efficiency, etc, with all the bells and whistles, in addition to just, you know, not breaking down one day.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Speaker C: And that's the biggest thing. Right. You might want to make sure it doesn't break down. So that's the same thing. You deal with technology, you're trying to make it better, but also make sure that it doesn't just stop doing what you needed to do at the core level.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and so obviously you're a, you are a people person or, or, and, and kind of study that. So there probably is an inherent of like, okay, you're probably decently good or pretty good, proficiently good at hearing the needs of the organization and then figuring out how to um, kind of bring that back to your team and go, okay, this is what we need to focus on. Is that an accurate, accurate representation? Are you someone who kind of is like, I'm learning, I'm talking to you guys, the business and translating it to the needs of my IT team, but also vice versa, talking to my IT team and translating it to the business of like, this is our capacity, this is our workload, this is our priorities. How do you want us to adjust? How do you kind of go about being that man?

Speaker C: I, uh, mean, I think a lot of it has to do with just learning and listening. Right. And then when you reshare something, try to see if your audience really understands what you're talking about. Okay. If your audience isn't and you want to uh, you know, read in between the lines, like look at the expressions where sometimes navigate the conversations to see what their feedback is and having them actually see if they can regurgitate what you just said. Right. It's like a good PowerPoint. Right. You know, if your PowerPoint doesn't deliver what you wanted to say. Right. Away, you're going to still talk to it, but it should just say the key points right away and not have, you know, 20 bullet points or whatever it is. So the hardest thing is to do is to, you know, it's like Einstein said, it's, it's easy to make things complex, but it's complex to make things simple. Right. So it's the Apple way of doing, you know, business, whatever. Right. And ah, so I, it's put that mindset into everything you do. You know, I always, if I'm going to communicate something, whether it's email, text or just conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: They're down to three bullet points. What's, what are you really trying to say here? If you can't do that, they're not going to even.

Speaker B: Well, like you said right. Earlier, we, there's a lot of noise, we don't have a lot of time. Right. So we have to go, is this going to be important to me or not? And if you can't prove that to me, I'm going to move on to the next thing. And so if you have 20 bullet points to prove that you're worth listening to, it's too many bullet points to kind of.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's not the right bullet points. Yeah. There's no easy way to do it. But you know, the more you ask questions about what the business drivers are, then you can help figure out how technology supports those.

Speaker B: Yeah. In. And there's going to be a two part question. First part is kind of learning lessons from failure and then the second part is kind of successes you want to celebrate in your career. Can you recall a time or maybe a couple times where you didn't succeed? Um, but you learned from it. I learned sort of some learning lesson, sort of projects, uh, or experiences that you've had.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think, you know, there's been a number of projects along the way that just didn't come to fruition as expected. I think the biggest thing was really not understanding what your outcomes needed to be. And that was one piece of it. The second thing was timing. We weren't able to deliver things on a timely basis. And so because we didn't understand the scope that was really required and we kept adding things and doing what we call scope creep. Right. So if we didn't allow that to happen, we probably would have been able to execute those projects more effectively. That, that's probably what I would say would have prevented some of the, the delays that we had and then also the customer disappointment in the end where that comes down to.

Speaker B: So how do you, you know, as you learn from that, how do you even, how do you, do you reduce scope creep? Like, how do you set the, uh, parameters clearly so that you don't maximize scope creep in that make if that makes sense and meet the actual needs of what you want to accomplish?

Speaker C: Yeah. I think the hardest thing is not to be able to say no. Right. You can't say, we can't do this right now. But it's really, if you want anything more to be added, you have to be ready to say, this is the impact that it's going to have on the project, whether it's going to be delayed or it's going to cost more, you know, and those are the key things. Right. And so m. In our project management world, I think it was the triangle. Right. Time, scope and resources. Right. So one of those things are going to be impacted. So if you, you know, if your scope is changing, it's going to impact the other two somehow. So you have to be able to articulate that back. Yeah, we can do all this, but be realistic. Don't just say, yes, we'll do it and put it into the same time period, uh, if you can. Sometimes you can, right. And you'll squeeze it in. But most of the times you, you probably, um, should identify what the real impact is.

Speaker B: So it's kind of like, hey, you want this? We can do this. But it will lengthen it two weeks. Is it worth it to you to lengthen the whole project by two weeks, get everything two weeks later and have that, or is it more worth it to you to get it out two weeks earlier and not have that and then that becomes the discussion to figure

Speaker C: out or put it into phase two or three kind of thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it's, it's, it's kind of setting the boundaries clear. And if someone wants to expound the boundaries, being like, this is what will change, is that still cool with you? Or do we need to figure out something else? So it is constant communication and conversation. Right. To figure out if things are aligned with all stakeholders.

Speaker C: Right, exactly.

Speaker B: Let's do success stories then. Uh, what are some things that you're proud of in your, your career that you're kind of like, yeah, I think people, I did this. Awesome. And I think people can learn from this.

Speaker C: Yeah. There's a number of things I'd say the, the biggest one is my focus on application rationalization. And I think that is where we're at in the world today with everything, um, in every Organization. We have so many things that we utilize. We've created a spaghetti system of what we depend on. Okay, so, um, in my last hospital, a big thing that we did was, okay, we had 10 different. Actually, no, we probably had more like 16 or 17 security functions or security applications that we used to support our environment. And with each one of these applications, it served a good function. It really did. Um, whether it's email filtering or firewall management, you name it, um, data loss protection, there's all these different functions. With each of them, there's accounts that we have to maintain, our sysadmin team has to learn new tools. Then even on the back end, there's invoicing issues like, okay, how many invoices is it? Accurate licensing cost. And so thinking about an application rationalization effort, we focused on reducing that in half and finding vendors who could do more, do more with less. You hear that all the time. Uh, we actually did end up going down the Microsoft 365 platform with a lot of the function. Not only were we doing it with Outlook and the whole Office products, but they had a lot of security products that could take care of the same function and then put it into one ecosystem. So then it was simplified. You don't have to have multiple accounts and everything's kind of tied into one environment because does it cost a little more? Probably, yes. You know, but in the back end, it saves more because of the less complication, um, that we were involved in and less things to deal with and being able to quickly pivot as things need to change.

Speaker B: Speaking of kind of looking forward and pivoting as things need to change for you, for the business, what are kind of your biggest priorities, challenges, and, um, how are you looking at them, choosing to approach them? How do they support the business? This. So this is a business question, but also a personal question. What are your kind of priorities and challenges moving forward in the future?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I think, you know, everybody's talking AI and agentic AI is the thing right now, today. So how do we utilize things today and get to a point where you're using it regularly? Uh, it is just like a big shift in industry that happened, you know, many years ago. Right. So we'll say when the telephone was invented, it changed things. Wireless telephone, when it came around, it changed things. We all had wireless telephones before we had the Internet. Right. So. And then the Internet came around, it changed things significantly. Um, and that allowed communication and technology pivot in so many different ways. And businesses were impacted by that. Well, the same thing is now going through the phase with AI and agentic AI, and how do you make sure you use it every day in a way that it's just part of your ecosystem? We use the Internet every day. Right. I mean, that's just the world we live in. We use probably our mobile phones every day. And this is the same way. Well, now we're going to use both of these with some version of AI in it. And so how do you apply that into your daily routine? Um, there's a. I forgot the gentleman's name. He wrote the book, the AI Driven Leader. Uh, Jeff Woods, I think is his name. Uh, G, E, O, F, F, just to get the spelling right. Uh, Jeff had said, you know, those who will know how to use AI will outperform those that don't, or something to that effect. Right. And so that's really what it comes down to. It's, you know, everybody will be using it, but how you use it is where it's going to make the difference. And so that's what I'm trying to always improve myself on. Yeah.

Speaker B: Again, back to what we said at the beginning of the conversation is like, especially in the world of it, you can never be complacent. Right? What you. You will fall behind if you don't keep up with what the technology is. And you just got to make sure. And again, technology is always a tool. Right. It's. Humans are always first. People are always first, which is, again, why you pursued people, uh, the MBA and pursuing people. Um, but with tech especially, it's like, keep up so you can learn how to work better, more efficiently, um, and more effectively with people.

Speaker C: Um, yeah, the human element will always be needed. The human is still making the decisions and everything. The question is, how are you becoming more efficient at it? Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: I mean, we've had computer screens to type papers. You know, we could go back to the old typewriter days.

Speaker B: Yeah. We could. We could write.

Speaker C: Right. You could now edit everything, you know, and so you're just using technology and different way.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You still are putting the thought into it and the final thoughts of why any certain decisions are made.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, Nyan, the final question, and this is the soapbox moment, is what are some of the most important things, lessons, um, ideas that you've learned over your career? And you can repeat things that you've said earlier in the conversation that you think are like the punchlines of your career and what you think. And keep in mind, the audience will be like fellow IT professionals and leaders Alongside you. Not like people like me who are up and coming IT professionals, but people who are established in the field leaders. What are some of the lessons you'd like to, um, impart that you've learned that you think could be hugely beneficial and impactful to people listening?

Speaker C: I think, you know what I've already said before. Don't hesitate to ask questions. Um, and then recognize we are all imposters in whatever role we're in. You don't have to know everything. So when I first moved into the role of a cio, you don't say you know exactly what it means to be a cio. Okay. But you can also be an imposter for what your next role you want to be in. So start thinking differently. So wherever you want to grow into or potentially elevate into, start thinking, like, what would it be like to be in that role and what's important. So what do you have to learn? Right. So you ask questions, and it just takes time to keep learning knowledge, and then you eventually learn how to navigate conversation that makes it, uh, meaningful and valuable to whomever you're engaging with with. So. And there is no direct path. That's the. The main thing I would say is, you know, I never would have probably thought I am in the seat that I'm in and how I ended up here, you know, who would have thought or the industry that I was involved in, it's, uh, you know, always changing. So be ready for change and be ready to have luck, meet opportunity. So that means just eat prepared.

Speaker B: I, uh. It is one of my favorite concepts, which is luck is just where opportunity meets preparedness. And I laugh all the time where people are like, oh, you're just lucky. You're just lucky. It's like, yeah, but that person worked really hard so that when that opportunity came, they were able to take advantage of it. That's all it is.

Speaker C: Like, it is. Yeah. And networking is a big piece of it. Right. So even doing something like this, I think, you know, will help me in some fashion and make things if I can help others. Right.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker C: It all goes around kind of thing. But it's trust with that one another.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, uh, not that networking gets a bad rep because it sounds inherently selfish. Like you're networking to get something out of you, but that's. You only get something out of it if you're giving something into it. So really it's just relationship building. Right. And forming trust and stuff like that.

Speaker C: And there's no right way or wrong way of doing it, but you got to do it. And I'll be honest, I had a later start to the networking game. Um, but, you know, that's where I teach my daughters. You know, here's what you need to do, how you do it, and what the purpose behind it is. There is a purpose behind it, and.

Speaker B: And being able to think about that, uh, think about your life in terms of purpose. And working backwards, I think, is a very good trait to have to learn what are you trying to do? And it helps you figure out what the steps you need to take to get there are for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah. And going back to the final point I'll make with purpose is that's kind of what I ended, um, up. Why to start the newsletter that I did is because I said I want to influence 10,000 people or something to that effect at some point in my career. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And so hopefully I will be able to have that through this platform of influencing people in. In a positive way, to leave it as my legacy.

Speaker B: I guess I just want to say thank you for this. This conversation this time. This is awesome. And I also love how concise you are, how clear you are, how efficient you are in the way you communicate, and you don't really, like, kind of tell a really long story and, like, really, like, run away. You kind of just answer a question as directly as possible. And I think that's really important, um, to be able to speak concisely and clearly. So when you were talking about figuring out what those three bullet points are, uh, making an efficient communication, it. It shows, even in our podcast. So I just want to say thank you for the work you've done for yourself, but also it's apparent the expertise you have. So thank you for. For that. First of all.

Speaker C: No, thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then again, like you had just said, thank you for your time and your wisdom and everything that you're sharing. Um, I, um, wish you all the best moving forward. Let's keep in touch. Oh, um, after this is over, please send me the newsletter so that I can subscribe to it and read that, because I'd love to continue to learn from you in that way. But thank you for everything once again.

Speaker C: Sounds, um, good.

Speaker B: All right, take care.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: We hope you enjoyed this Keeping It Real episode, and thank you for listening. Make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss a future episode. This podcast is all about celebrating and connecting professional heroes who work hard at it every day to continue the conversation and learn how Vicom can help you better buy, manage and pay for your technology. Visit us@, uh, veecomsolutions.com until next time.