S3E30 - Murali Rajagopalan, Senior IT Director

Speaker A: Welcome to the Keeping It Real podcast. This podcast features honest and transparent conversations about what it takes to manage corporate technology and expenses today. Each episode listen to true and personal stories from IT professionals who are working hard to make sure their business stays connected and competitive. I'm um, your host Jethro Castillo and let's meet our next guest. Today I am joined by Murali Rajagopalan, who after 25 years of leadership at Meijer, is embarking on a new chapter as a senior IT Director. Mirali brings deep expertise in IT strategy and transformation, having championed infrastructure modernization and technology innovation across large scale retail operations. Mirali, thanks for being on the podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you for being here. I appreciate uh, you uh, having this conversation with me.

Speaker A: So let's um, start where all good things start, which is the beginning. How did you kind of get started in the world of it?

Speaker B: Absolutely. I always believe in uh, hard work and I always believe in there is a little bit of luck those who take the first step. So my career in IT really started off several decades ago when my father, uh, late father who uh, was a professor in uh, Commerce, Dr. B. Rajagopalan. So he brought a couple of books from his library to read about technologies, uh, specifically the name of the book that I still remember and I still proudly own. I bought a copy for my films just as I remember my dad and my first, very first step into programming and computing. It's called Computers and Common Sense by John Shenton Shelley. It's an amazing book that brought out to me the world of computing and technologies and what computers can and what binary number systems are and how to write algorithms. Flowchart that really popped open my brain about new ways of thinking, new ways of breaking complex stuff into simple steps so it can accomplish. So I would start my, I started my career as uh, part of learning about computer, being curious. So curiosity has been my uh, thing from the very early days on how things work. So I even fondly remember a time that I thought I can fix and solve a problem for ah, Anhelm gaming platform M that was uh, predating all the gaming uh, platforms. So I thought I can break it open and fix it. Yeah, I was successful with 50% of it. I was able to open it and I saw the parts inside. But when I put it together nothing worked. So I have had my share of greatly people are learning that there is a proper way to learn how to think. Audio, video and also I didn't read the instructions or anything. You know, I thought like I can read it. I know this is not difficult, but I did learn that. So that's when it started several decades ago. And then um, in one of the summer sessions I took uh, programming as a ah, hobby and also learning to a couple of other friends. So we did uh, Pascal programming and basic programming. So I did learn a lot about how computers can be taught to solve some simple problems and eventually got into simple graphic solutions. I wrote some programs to do graphics and bouncing balls and things that any kid would love to play when they started programming. That's what I did when I was with my teams. And then um, I had the opportunity, greatest opportunity, to do a master's uh, in computer science from part of Jericho Central University in India where I excelled in uh, programming, software development, software engineering, operating systems and more importantly, which was not a big thing then, but nowadays everybody second word we say, which is artificial intelligence. So I got a bit by the bug of artificial intelligence back then. It was called the classic AI. Uh, so I did learn the pitch and bytes and the uh, read through a lot of books and spent a lot of time with some minds who were willing and uh, thankfully helping me understand some of the concepts. That's where uh, my m journey started 20 years ago.

Speaker A: So when AI really became, when AI blew up like a couple years ago, you were like, I've been there already, I've been studying this for years.

Speaker B: I, I wouldn't necessarily say that that's because what I learned as AI was more on expert systems. You tell the computers what to do and it did what you're supposed to do and used some programming languages like Prologue and Expert System technologies to do something. And then I didn't pay much attention to AI field at all because I was told, AI is dead. You're not going to do anything with AI. Let's focus on cloud computing, let's focus on integrating larger systems. And my career took into various paths where I uh, was put on several initiatives and projects that I took a serious note of that and I solved the business problems. But when AI became uh, another thing again in 2022 when ChatGPT became a thing, I was super fascinated about large language models. It even prompted me to continue my education to do a PhD in machine learning and architecture, which I'm currently pursuing. I wouldn't say I'm done with it, but I'm just in the middle of it. Um, so. But all the things that I learned back then in my college days is coming back to my memories on how I would do uh, programming, how I would do um, uh, Allen Turing testing and other things that I learned back in the day, but trying to apply that huge, uh, improvement and really fascinating world we are living in. AI, uh, all the threats about AI taking jobs and everything, we need to take that with a grain of salt. Uh, there is a fact to that little bit. It's pretty much like when typewriters were getting obsolete because word processes became a thing. But it didn't really replace the jobs. It gave new opportunities and new solutions that people adopted. Humanity is always about adopting to new things. And I always believe that we as individuals and we as IT enthusiasts should always be looking for new changes and software.

Speaker A: Um, you know, you had mentioned that with the return, not the return, but kind of the explosion of uh, generative AI LLMs, uh, more specifically, you know, you were inspired enough to kind of pursue a PhD and kind of continue learning. Has that always been your mindset, just always wanting to learn and constantly pick up new things?

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. You said it right. I always feel like a student and the, either I'm learning at the job or somebody doing something really well. So I talk to them and learn how they do. And then I also feel that I'm obligated to uh, teach others on the things that I know. So because of that intent, I became an ARD tech professor teaching on various software development, web programming and things like that for the last 20 plus years. I'm also being an educationalist and a researcher on, um, newer ways to educate students, newer way to bring them along, teach them what I know. It forced me to learn something new as well. So I always feel that I'm a student and I will always be a student.

Speaker A: I agree with that because I feel like if you want to teach people something that constantly changes, you kind of need to always learn or else you're going to be behind too. So to be a teacher you need to be a student. To be a student, you need to be a teacher kind of thing. And so I really love that kind of mindset, especially in the world of IT and tech. Right? Which is unarguably the fastest moving thing that we study. And so you study finance. 20 years ago today you would probably still be studying very similar things to 20 years ago. Um, but 20 years ago what you were studying in tech and it is almost, and not even almost, it is obsolete now. And so you have to, so you have to be on top of things always. And so I always like asking that question because I feel like to be a good IT professional, to be a good tech leader, to be A good software developer, any of that. You have to have the mindset of I'm waking up and I'm going to learn, I'm going to learn, I'm just going to learn. So I think that's really cool. It is unique to talk to someone who is also a professor. On top of being a, ah, a learner, on top of being a student, on top of also being um, an IT director. I tend to think that there's a lot of overlap there. Right. I think to be a good leader you need to be a good teacher and to be a good teacher you kind of need to be a good leader. I want to hear it from you though. What is it like being both? Somebody who leads, uh, a team in a business perspective, but then also leads, teaches a team, students in a educational perspective. And is there any overlap? How, how does each feed the other? More importantly, how does it feed your life?

Speaker B: I truly believe all these facets of my life are interconnected. One does not stand alone and the uh, other is not standing alone by itself. So me being a senior technical director in an organization also means that I am working with a group of people with different experiences, some with 30 plus years of experience, some with 3 months of experience to varied degrees. Right. When you work with these varied group of people, there's plenty of knowledge and wisdom that they share and they continue to exhibit on what they have learned. And I'm a student of learning these things and this is an exchange as well. Right. So me asking questions, really imparting them, thinking, oh, that is a different way, think a problem can be solved. So there is an interaction and a conversation that happens both ways in my mind. I'm always collecting these pieces of data and information and trying to put a picture in front of me to say this is my role, how do I lead a department to be successful and as part of being successful, how can I bring in more value as a teacher? When I think as a teacher, as someone who is willing to share their knowledge and wisdom and who is always in conversations on improving a system or improving a process or uh, just being, listening to conversation many times I believe just lending your ears to your fellow members helps a lot to share and vent out and things like that. There is plenty of learning opportunity. The other approach I see as learning opportunity is things, as you mentioned, IP keeps changing. So what was relevant 20 years ago is no longer relevant. Things move, but there uh, are foundational elements that are still important. Software engineering for example, or software development practices. Those ah, are foundational Elements that will never change. You still need somebody to tell you what exactly needs to be developed. You still need somebody to really think through an architectural guidelines and principles. Then somebody to core, maybe AI could help you, but it's not the one, at least today to solve everything for you. The thought process behind all these things is you're always thinking, how can you bring in your old value, try to negotiate the new learnings and continue to improve and update your values so that the continuous cycle of learning and asking questions will continue to stir your thoughts is an opportunity as education itself would offer. So one other thing I see valuable to me is when I take my real world work experience and talk to my students in classroom, I can really box that in a way that they can understand when they go into the work field. These things are not new. When we are in a mode where we teach what's there in the book, it's not exactly meeting the work experience. So that's where I feel that I bring in that, uh, view that I like is to bring in the work experience and how it matches the book and things like that. And I see these are all completely interconnected. M. To answer your question, come back to the full circle. It's not a standalone thing. Everybody is going through this portion, whether they realize or not. It's a continuous improvement process all over.

Speaker A: How did you. And, and this is me kind of flattering you a little bit. There is a sense of wisdom behind how you talk and how you speak. And I think that has to do with being a good leader, but also being a good professor and teacher. I would, you know, you would probably agree to be a good teacher, you have to be a good student. We've kind of talked about this for the last ten minutes. Um, where did you kind of. And you can talk about previous projects, you can talk about role models, you can talk about childhood. Where did you pick this up? Unless of course, you were born innately with wisdom. Um, where did you kind of learn all these things from and develop the mindset that I would assume you were proud to kind of have and take with you in this life?

Speaker B: I would like to say start off with one thing. Nobody is born wise, so they are all born at the same level. This world is full of great wisdom already in front of you. It's how much you are open to accepting that and how much you are willing to learn from that is important. I give you a couple of people in my lives who made me think who I am and what I need to go after the first and foremost is always my dad. So my dad, uh, was a professor. I said earlier, I have seen him always talk about wise things. So he's a very careful, cautious person when he explains how things should be working. Um, but at the same time, he is a fun, loving person that he always listens to you when you say something. He is eager to know and he has his opinions and he would challenge and things like that. But then there is a constant back and forth. That's one thing. The second thing I have observed in him is the way that he constantly learns. He reads books and he talks to people. He goes as if he doesn't know anything about that area, but within five minutes he's giving them an advice on how things should be working. So I think that open mind and then, uh, bringing your shield down when you're going to learn is very important. If you keep your shield up, saying that I know better than you, there is no learning that you are definitely shielding yourself from any wealth of information that may be hitting you. That's, uh, one question that has influenced me. There are many folks that have influenced me in my life. One, um, real opportunity that I had was, uh, in my previous jobs, the previous company, and even before I come, great leaders that I interacted with. Um, but this would take like five hours of podcasts if I start mentioning every name. But so I don't want to do that. So I can tell you that I look for teachers, I look for opportunities, somebody can help me understand a concept. And then it is not necessarily for me to tap my ego and say that I know this. It's more for my genuine curiosity, what I can learn. There are projects that I got involved in where I was thrown into a project and with a deadline to say that, hey, you need to finish everything by this day, completely understand the business perspectives. But then initial days, it used to be more like, okay, I was splitting and I was like, working hard and trying to do stuff. I worked over weekends, over weekends. And then when they presented what I did, the answer I got back, this is not what I was asking you to do. So that threw me off balance. You know, where did I miss? So the retrospection was very, very important for me. Where did I miss? I felt angry, I felt upset that I spent all this time thinking that I'm producing an awesome product for my boss. But really what happened was I did not do a closed, uh, loop check with the people who was requesting these things. Now what should I do to better. So those things are very important. For me that I started doing more closed loop check and how do I continue to get feedback based on the work? Those feedback made me course correct everything and accomplish a lot of these different things. So many teachers in my life, they all taught me many things and I have had an opportunity to teach them as well. So I wouldn't say it always one way down. I ask questions and I try to bring in my experiences. Um, I always say that be open in learning, be open in asking questions. Don't be close at uh, whatever stage in your career and life. Be curious. Curiosity is the most important thing.

Speaker A: I like to say that if you have a strong belief, I always want to ask questions to challenge it because all it does is either strengthens the belief I already have or reminds me that I'm wrong and I can then be more right later. And so if you're telling me something that goes against my belief system, I'm just going to go. You're either going to make me believe in my belief system more or you're going to tell me that I have a better way to think about life. And when I like unlocked that way of thinking, it changed my life because all of a sudden I wasn't trying to like prove myself or be something that I wasn't. All I was trying to do is be better than I was yesterday.

Speaker B: There is no reason to make others win and over over an argument and say that you are wrong and I'm right. You should change the way that you're thinking. That could be different ways to do different things. As long as you are not impacting another human being, you are in a better place. Leave the world in a better place than you came in. When I think of ego, I read somewhere that ego is nothing but edging God out. There is a God inside you. When you take that out and throw it out, that's when ego seeps in more. So that's a phrase that is very near and dear to me. There are a few phrases that are near and dear to me. That is one phrase that you don't need to be holding a shield to say that I'm better than everyone else in the world. That's not true.

Speaker A: You're a leader, right? You're also a teacher. You are engaging and interacting with people, which means you don't just get to know tech and learn how to code and that's your life. You also have to understand how to interact and engage with people. And that is way more unpredictable in my opinion than something that follows numbers or logic. Because Humans are emotional. We all do have ego. We all have things that drive us that don't drive other people. Which means that you don't just get to operate as a leader as if everybody else is like you. You have to almost remove yourself and go, how are you? Who are you? And how do I adjust to you so that you get what you want and you benefit? So this is my attempt at, uh, transitioning from a really ethereal psychological sense into, um, business, into it into a more tangible thing. What kind of has been your experience or what have you learned? Um, you know, being who you are, coming into a world of IT and of business. Um, and you're kind of in the middle, right. You don't just get to code and do software development and do tech stuff and IT stuff. You also have to interface with people who have business needs so that you're able to kind of merge the two, translate the two and tell those things. What is it like developing that dialog? And, um, being both a tech person and a business person and being the person in the middle who kind of translates that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So being the person in the middle, that means I started my career as a far right into the technology space. And then when I worked more on the tech space as a developer and an architect and things like that, the more I started learning. I gave you the example, right? I was like, heads down doing some software development after a couple of weeks. That's not exactly what was asked of me, but, uh, completely missed it. So that opened up my thought. Maybe we need to have better way to interact with people who need these kind of solutions. So that opened up my thought process to be more a, uh, listener, more a, uh, feedback person and things like that. So that way I brought from a far right to say whatever I develop is what you should accept. That did work. So I need to start moving towards on, um, the what is the need? What is the true need? Is this your personal need or are you asking for, let's say in a grocery business, which I'm very familiar with, and you are a store operations person, are you asking a need just because it gives your life easy, or are you really asking it would be helpful for the end hoppers who are coming to your store? So there is definitely both are valuable. I'm not saying one is better or more important than the other, but having the conversation and the dialogue to really understand the whys behind this is where the five whys come in. Why do you need it and why is it important? And why should be this of the other one and why is this important for the organization? But when you keep asking those why not necessarily like a pointed out question, hey, I don't like what you said. So I keep, I'm going to keep asking you more why questions until you run away from my space. That's not the income, it's for me to really understand what is the reasoning behind all this thing. When I have, when I started those conversations, I started understanding the nature of business, the nature of operation cancel. Then I was, when I came to become the leader of technology, I can translate need to my technical folks so that they understand and they course correct even before they start developing software. So my role as being the intermediary between the business operations and the technology developers and implementers has uh, tremendously increased my circle of influence if you will, because I was paying more attention to what is concerning for the business and what is influential that I can do. So here I want to mention another piece of learning uh, that I did, uh, through the seven habits of uh, highly efficient people. Stephen Covey um, highly effective people have great wealth in that book and materials. One biggest wealth IPA is the focus on circle of influence and circle of concern. So circle of influence is what I can do day in, day out to make my job better, make the people around me better. Circle of concerns are things that are beyond my control. Like maybe there is uh, a bigger initiative the organization is doing that I can't influence. But it's a concern, but it's an outlier. The more you focus on your circle of influence, that sphere grows. That means you are being more influential, not to the fact that it really adds to your resume or anything like that. It is what's the most important thing. Everybody has their own circle of influence. How can they focus the work that they are doing better and expand out, reach out to others to really listen. And that's when I start putting all these concepts into effect. That's when I started really understanding that I can be a person who can highly get the business need and also can influence the uh, teams that are delivering the solutions better. So when I started building those confidence and things like that, attributing all those things to the lessons I learned through great uh, leaders like Stephen Curry and Mahatma Gandhi and others, there are uh, plenty of learning that we had to apply but there's no point in just learning and reading all the books and not applying. So when I start applying I'm realizing what really works for me and what doesn't really work for me. So this one particular case that I'm talking about, circle of influence, circle of concern, is something that I teach all my mentees as well. I have plenty of mentees and quote in my uh, life that I tell them, teach them, remind them, if they're already aware of it, to apply in their life.

Speaker A: The whole point of life, whether we're thinking about it philosophically or just in business, is to make impact and to provide value to the people around you. Um, and that's all it is, right? Because we're humans, right? Even with AI, even with tech, it's always about people to people, interaction, everything. Right.

Speaker B: Everything. Yep.

Speaker A: So for you to go, I learn a lot and I take a lot, but really it has value because of how I get to influence other people is a great and phenomenal reminder. And so I thank you for kind of diving into that. Truly.

Speaker B: I want to, I want to circle in this point on one note, right. I have had a similar experience of me reading all these books, me attending all this webinars and conferences, learning all those things. At some point I really realized like, why should I learn all those things if I don't apply? So that's when I started to not keep learning, but start applying the concept that one at a time. See how it helped. I can tell you, as per the law of attraction, when you start applying one good concept, the rest of the good concepts automatically come to you and become more applicable, more applicable. And at the end you have your tool set is full of great thoughts and applicable, action oriented things that you always execute. Your mind always goes into an execution mind on, uh, how do I bring in these practices to solve this bubble?

Speaker A: And I think too when you start applying, you start to understand your gaps or you understand your gaps too. So then you know what you need to learn more of as you are applying. So it's not just I need to learn everything perfectly and then I will apply, it's I'll learn, apply, learn, apply, learn, apply. Right. It becomes that cycle.

Speaker B: Like you had mentioned earlier, atomic habits, man, that's what it is.

Speaker A: Thank you for bringing that book up. That is one of the books that really like changed the way I thought about how you like kind of construct your life, if that makes sense.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: So we talked a lot about, you know, your history and how you've learned and um, and, and where you got to today. I, I kind of want to, as we close, look towards the future, moving forward, um, what are kind of your biggest priorities, challenges, whether within your business or personally, um, and how Are you kind of overcoming those or tackling those or looking at those?

Speaker B: With regard to my business and my contribution to my current organization, I'm definitely looking to bring more processes, better improvement of processes, bring in better technology solutions, uh, through my team. Obviously I'm not an individual that can facilitate every change. I need my team to also help me with all those things and I want to be making the organization stronger and effective and efficient. There is a great culture of this organization. It's always thinking about people and always ah, bringing the best to the associates as well as to the customers and others. What I really aspire to do in the short term and the long term is improving the systems that we have today, replacing the systems that don't work for us or it's been uh, old. So there are a lot of opportunities to improving and replacing technology so that the business can run smoothly and then they can start planning a roadmap of what they need to do in the next five years, 10 years, 15 years down the line. So that foundational aspect is what I'm looking in a short run, the long run, help with the road mapping. So the legacy should be there even beyond our times that we are putting a roadmap and the vision that can really take us to the next several decades. So that is what I'm really interested to do on uh, outside of my business, professional things. As I mentioned, I continue to do my PhD. So it is not necessarily a degree just to create the degree. It is a uh, way for me to rediscover my gaps. What are the things in my understanding, uh, one of the things that I don't know today that I would like to equip myself so that I can continue to do research and contribute and give back to the educational society. So what are the things that I can give back? It could be like very small. I'm not saying that I'm going to bring in the next big uh, game changer in the world or anything. Every small change is a game changer for somebody else in the world. It could be as simple as finding a uh, screw that somebody invented several hundred years ago, which we still knew. So that is the type of change that I'm really looking forward to bringing up once as part of me learning these things and things like that. So uh, it's all part of continued learning. I want to contribute and give back to the society. I want to contribute and give back to my organization that really helping me to grow my career. So those are all my ambitions on the personal side Obviously like family, I want to make sure that their needs are taken care of. They are, uh, uh, emotionally being attached and things like that. So then I continue to be a good father and good husband and things like that.

Speaker A: So you're telling me that one of your big priorities and dreams in life is not to create a handheld gaming device? And come back to that.

Speaker B: That's a story that I want to forgive you finish that next time you have a device that needs fixing. You know who definitive, I'll take care of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly. To close Murali, what are some of kind of. And and keep in mind your audience are your peers. It isn't sort of up and coming IT professionals or people like me. It's more like people who are your peers who are learning how to lead better. In general. What are some of the most important lessons? And you can repeat what you have repeated, but what are some of the most important lessons that you've learned over your career that you think kind of are right now the staple of who you are and you believe that it could kind of inspire, um, the leaders that do listen to this.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Uh, few words of uh, thoughts that come in my mind. One is be open minded. So be open minded. So you listen to your folks, you understand what's going on. Don't go with the impression that you know it all and. Or don't go with the impression saying that I have done it this way and there is no other way can be done. But be open minded. Number two is be curious to really understand what's happening under the hood to a level obviously you're not going to go down to the nitty gritty detail on every problem. You won't have the time to do that. But be curious and instill that curiosity. And with me in your team. So when you are asking a question to your team, it is not to test the team, but to impart that coaching moment to the team so that they continue to be curious and giving more answers for you. So that's important. The third important thing that I see is very collaborative. Me collaborating. This is a world where no single person has done anything on their own. It's a world of teamwork. So it's a world of being part of a team. People have different roles, but your role as a leader is to instill the confidence and belief in the team so that they can solve any problem that they face. As a leader, it's your job to coach the team to bring that confidence. You may not know all the answers. That's okay, nobody knows all the answers for all the questions they know. But then one step at a time, develop the confidence, develop the belief in the team way of through conversations, through support, through listening skills. These are all very important for a leader. That's what I would leave to my peers as well as like, continue to train, continue to develop the confidence, continue to trust the team. Uh, develop the skills to be curious and then be open minded.

Speaker A: Well, Murali, thank you so much for this conversation. This was awesome. I really appreciate you really opening up and sharing your wisdom. Like I had said before, thank you for your time, your wisdom, your experience. Um, let's keep in touch. This has been, um, an absolute privilege for sure.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you. It's my privilege to appreciate the time that you hear me.

Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed this Keeping It Real episode and thank you for listening. Make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss a future episode. This podcast is all about celebrating and connecting professional heroes who work hard at it every day. To continue the conversation and learn how Vitecom can help you better buy, manage and pay for your technology, visit us at, uh, vcomsolutions.

Speaker B: Com.

Speaker A: Until next time.