Mental Health, Productivity, and the Numbers Behind It: A Conversations with Travelers

Speaker A: Welcome to Inspired Leadership, where we explore the ideas and experiences shaping today's leaders. I'm Jamie Klein, partner at HR Path. We help organizations transform hr, connecting strategy and tech and execution globally, from advisory through implementation to payroll and outsourcing. I'm absolutely thrilled to be joined today by two real thought leaders in the space around mental health. Um, Rich Ives and Jessica Kearney. And we find ourselves here in the month of May. Every site I'm on is talking about mental health. This will probably go live after May and I love the idea of mental health being on everyone's radar, not just in May, but year round. So it is timely that we're talking now, but may it last a year long. Jessica, Rich, welcome. Thrilled to have you both.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I've been really impressed with travelers and how they really prioritize the focus on mental health, um, for a long time now. And you know, Rich, I would love if you could kind of top, just kind of set the table and kick off the discussion. You know, mental health has become more a prominent conversation in the workplace, especially in the month of May. But you all published a thought paper, a white paper on this a long time ago. I'd love to just kind of set the table on how you are really defining mental health and why should the average employer, even with a low budget. Right. Small companies, big companies, why should employers really care about mental health?

Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you, Jamie, for, uh, the invitation and the opportunity to speak, uh, to all of, uh, your audience on the importance of this topic in your question on the white paper. Let me start off first by saying, um, the white paper that we published began in January of 2025. But our work in this space around mental well being began more than a decade ago. And I'll tell you about the reason that started for us. We started, um, seeing a rise in the frequency of chronic pain claims. And chronic pain claims are those, uh, instances where somebody is diagnosed with chronic pain. It happens months after the acute injury. And what we found is the elements of a chronic pain claim are not just physical, but it's the combination of the physical, the psychological and the social, the mental wellbeing aspect, the lack of support or how you get along socially. And so for us, it really started in embarking on this journey of understanding the whole person, in our whole person relevant approach. Um, we call it really more of a patient centered approach. And so there are a lot of things that we've done in this space. But you know, we didn't just start when the topic became in Vogue. We've been at this for a while now. Our white paper, as you mentioned, it really takes a broad holistic view. It really defines mental health as an individual's emotional, psychological and social well being, not simply the absence or presence of a diagnosed condition. Our work goes beyond that. Uh, think of a diagnosed condition may be more of the tip of the iceberg. We're talking about more of the full spectrum. And think of mental well being, um, similar to. Less like a light switch on. Either you have it or you don't. And more like a dial. It runs along a spectrum from truly thriving all the way to experiencing a crisis. M. And the employee sits somewhere on that dial at any given day. The three of us at some, we are somewhere on that dial. Right. So that tends to take the stigma out of it a little bit. We're all, uh, you know, we all sit in that spectrum in some way.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, mental health affects how we think and how we act. Uh, the definition, the definition of how we would define it really matters because mental health shapes nearly everything at work. How employees process stress, how they partner, how they collaborate with their colleagues, how they make decisions day to day. So we think it's a very important topic. Uh, this spectrum view has a direct implication for leaders because we as leaders don't have an opportunity to choose which part of that spectrum shows up at work. And we need to be prepared for really all of it. No.

Speaker A: And I just want to build on that. I think that there. And, uh, I love that you've been at this for so long. I only heard organizations really talk about meeting people where they were during the pandemic. It was then that I heard at the top of the house, organizations were talking about how you need to meet people where they are. You need to really maybe start a meeting with a mental health check in. But those are new skills that most leaders don't have. And I love that frame that we all are on the spectrum and it can be dialed up, dialed down based on a multitude of factors. I love that. Just, it's a very strategic and holistic view.

Speaker C: Yeah, great, great point. And you're right, we did see a lot of things really start to shift and change with the pandemic. At the same time as we saw new entrances coming to the workforce who were coming more from an expectation that this is more supported. Mental well being is important and supported so that, you know, new entrants come, uh, in a little bit with a different, uh, frame of expectation than maybe typically the workforce, historically speaking. And we Know, the topic is one that's very important to the workforce. Uh, the data really speaks very clearly to that. The American Psychiatric association performs their Work in America survey, and that survey found that 92% of workers say that it's important to them to work for an organization that values their emotional and psychological well being. We also know another important stat. 77% of the workforce would report experiencing workplace stress in just the last month alone. Now, stress in and of itself is not bad. Um, how we deal with it, though, and the support mechanisms to go around it can make all the difference.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Um, so this is an important topic for us. As a leading workers compensation insurer, Travelers sees a connection firsthand between mental well being. Um, it's a factor in both preventing injuries as well as recovering from them. And that really kind of sets the stage for some of the work that we've seen. Because, you know, as one of the largest insurers of businesses in the country, as you can imagine, we deal with a lot of injured employee claims. You start to gain a, uh, level of understanding of these types of things. And our data shows that injured workers who have at least one psychological or social risk factor. We'll define kind of what those are, you know, probably as we go on here in our conversation. Yeah, but if a worker has at least one of them, the. Their amount of time that it takes them to recover, or we call it return to work, is 50% longer when you have a psychological or social risk factor versus someone who does not have one of those.

Speaker A: Wow. And it really, you know, there's so much research about, you know, longevity and, uh, it all goes down to community habit. You know, the. Where you start when there's an injury or a trauma is all about kind of your starting place. Right. Were you nourished, were you healthy for kind of, um, for when something hit. So I love that you just take that holistic view. And for a lot of folks, I'm sure listening to the podcast and folks organizations that we speak to, even top of the heap organizations, they have a really hard time making the link between why this matters and them serving shareholders. And I really think that you put it from a top of the house C level, you really put it in terms you do have that benefit of where employees return to work faster. And, um, just the awareness culturally that these things, all of these factors really play in. It's great.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think that's really good. One last point on this one. I think it's important because I don't want the Audience to think, okay, this is just, uh, a topic that's important for when somebody is injured. I think think of that as a proxy or a correlation to when your workforce is not injured and how they're feeling. We really believe that investing in employee mental health benefits, both the employees, but also your business. It supports a work environment uh, that can increase productivity, it reduces absenteeism, it reduces presenteeism. Maybe folks are there, but they're just not as functionally, um, there or as productive as you would want because they're struggling with some situation. And improved employee morale and retention is a benefit along with lower healthcare costs. So, you know, we think it's an important topic regardless if a person's injured or not injured.

Speaker A: And I think it also, it sends a signal to the folks who are not going through an, uh, injury that they work for an organization that really cares deeply about them as a whole person. I think that it's like anything in life. We learn more about people or organizations sometimes when they're down, right. And how they handle stress and how they bounce back and to even just talk, um, broadly. But, you know, someone's out because they've got something going on in the home front, and we can't wait until they get back. Right. Just small things like that that can really create that type of culture where people then think, all right, if I have something on the home front, health issue, whatever it might be, you know, I will not like people. People will not throw me shade, right? Like, I will not be seen as someone who's, um, who's forgotten because they're out of sight for a little bit. So I think that all those things go a long way. And again, you know, I'm from. I'm cut from the cloth that it's always invoked to care about mental health and someone as the whole person. But I do think that there are a lot of organizations where they don't always see that link, and that's why I was so drawn to you. Um, with travelers, the umbrella's not there for nothing, right? You really care about protecting folks holistically. And I have to say, I've been, you know, proud customer for, I think, 17 years now of travelers. So there's a little bit of love there. So, Jessica, I also, I would love to get your perspective on this because you all created this. I mean, it's really kind of cutting edge, this kind of forces at work initiative and this whole institute mindset. Can you tell us a little bit about and how it really impacts this whole topic?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well Jamie, thanks so much for having me on. And Rich, thanks for um, laying that out so nicely. The definition. I love the dial analogy and really making the business case for why this should matter. Which of course is also echoed in our Travelers Institute white paper. Um, while Rich is coming at this from the business side, um, I sit in the Travelers Institute, which is the public policy division of the company. And we take on different public policy issues that really impact our industry, our customers, our employees, of course, and all the communities where we're doing business. So we host educational forums, webinars, podcasts, present at conferences on any, any of those topics. Think like auto safety to cybersecurity. And you know, I think our forces at work initiative is something really special. It's an educational initiative that began completely organically, as you mentioned, after the pandemic. I think we um, are really fortunate to have, um, the leadership within. Within uh, the company from. From Rich and his team. M. I, um, think also just as you were pointing about, about culture and you know, and really learning about an organization, you know, when. When people are down and how they react. I think, you know, just as an employee here at Travelers, you know, I've been hearing our CEO for years and years and years talk about this issue. And even more recently, um, we had, uh, leaders at uh, Travelers actually film um, videos talking about, um, times in their life when they've um, accessed our mental health benefits and health support and put those out internally for our 30,000 employees to see. And I mean, if you like the vulnerability that that takes, um, and the leadership, uh, something that's really struck me and has propelled this whole forces at work forward and really put a lot of oomph behind it, if you will. Uh, so the series takes on a bunch of different issues. Anything from, um, we look at, uh, talent, we look at the labor market, we look at leadership and management, of course, um, risk and insurance as it relates, um, in that area. But a really big core topic has been mental well being, um, at work. And it's been, I'd say you mentioned during the pandemic, all of these issues really gathering steam. Um, and we host, uh, as I mentioned, webinars, podcasts. Yeah, um, really to stay in touch with our business partners and employees. And of course they've been showing up for all the direct insurance topics. But quite frankly, I think we've been continually surprised by the number of people who show up for topics like mental well being and nutrition and things that feed yourself just as a human being, uh, versus just as the business person. So we've hosted 94 programs through network, uh, that have been attended or viewed more than 140,000 times. Um, and I guess just one anecdote to show you. So we've hosted 160 webinars. They're open to the public, but primarily our business partners. Join our employees. Join. Um, out of the 160, the number four most popular program was on sleep. So that's a topic that really is at the intersection between your personal health and your professional performance. Your ability to learn, um, and retain information and lead and perform on a day to day basis. This um, that was you know, just an example of um, like people showing up for those types of topics and I think continuously giving us the feedback travelers. You're so smart to invest in me, your business partner, as an insurance executive, but also as just a human being walking around this earth. So rewarding.

Speaker A: I love all ah of it. So um, and if those are open to the public, maybe we can even amplify it because I think that so many folks could benefit from it. And there are many organizations that don't have insurance policies where they have that type of support. So just for the masses. Yeah, I'll share with you. Uh, my face lit up when you said sleep. New Arianna Huffington has done a whole lot of work around sleep. And um, she shares a story that she. I'm gonna probably get the details wrong, but she said, you know, she founded Huffington Post, right? So she said she was working like she's like I invented the 24, 7 hour newsreel. Right. So she said she found herself one day having a health issue where she kind of collapsed in her office and she had to go to lots and lots and lots of doctor appointments, right as follow. And if I remember the story correctly, when I heard her in a podcast, she said, you know, when you're in those scary doctor's offices, waiting rooms, it gives you a lot of time to think. And what I realized through this is that a lot of my health moment that I had at work was fueled by a lack of sleep. So she is now obsessed with sleep and she did this whole analysis of all through the ages. If you look at any type of civilization, sleep, wellness, let food be thy healer. Like the basics have always been so important. And eight is the magic number if anybody's wondering what it is. But um, yesterday, just yesterday, a young career professional who I mentor shared with me that they had kind of a, what they called a panic attack, um, at work. And they, you know, we kind of debriefed after. And you know, and I said, you know, just, you know, check in, like, how are you with hydration, with sleep, with exercise, the basics. And they said, you know what, I'm um, in this new job, like I'm like five years into my career, I'm really trying to crush it. And I probably trimmed a little bit on exercise and sleep. So it's like, it's like these basics of like care, water and feeding. No matter where you are in your career, these are the things that matter. And I love that you shine, that you just shined a light in the fact that sleep is so important. And I said to this young career, professional, sleep is the engine. Like just set your alarm for every night, whatever time it is, to make sure you clock those eight hours of sleep. So I'm going to share your information with them. Um, going more broadly, Richard, we go back to you for a sec. There's often this perceived gap between workers comp and mental health. I think a lot of folks, when they think of workers comp, they picture someone coming into the office with crutches. But there's a lot now around, um, workers compensation during mental health challenges. And I will share with you, from a generational perspective, we, in our work we see such an uptick in this younger generation. The newer to work folks being really honest, um, if they need a mental health leave or whatever it might be. So can you talk a little bit? Cause I think a lot of the stigma is kind of breaking down on that. And I think that the work you're doing is really helping that really move that along.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And sure. And um, I will say just to make sure that we are really clear kind of in what we're talking about. You know, we're not necessarily talking about a mental health claim when we talk about the impact. What we're talking about is when a psychological or social risk factor, mental well being, contributes to accidents or recovery from, you know, from illness or um, or just overall engagement. Right. So I just wanted to just make, make sure that that's clear. And I love what you had just walked through because I know I feel that myself, you know, so I have certain disciplines in my life. I know I feel very different when I am able to work out. When I work out, I do it first thing in the morning because nothing gets in the way. Later at night, something's going to get in the way. So I put that right early in the morning. But I feel during the day directly attributed to how am I eating? Am M I sleeping well? Um, am I getting physical activity, motion in? So I think that's super important. Um, and we know that mental and physical health are deeply interconnected. That's kind of a key point. And uh, poor mental wellness can lead to physical problems just as you stated, like heart disease or diabetes or chronic pain. Back to what we mentioned before, regional pain type, uh, symptoms and conversely physical health issues can create anxiety and sleeplessness and can really exacerbate physical health conditions. So we know that there's a strong linkage there. Mental health can also be a factor in accidents and you might kind of recognize that yourself. And I'll make sure I point this out because you're a traveler's customer. If you're driving down the road with your automobile, in the instances where you may have had a close call, I'll bet you were distracted. And so, and we see that you know, leading uh, studies can really have shown that distraction can cause uh, an impact awareness and reaction time issues. And we really do see that distraction is a leading cause of accidents. Um, whether it's physical injury or workplace injury, um, when an employee is injured on the job, we recognize that recovery is not purely physical. Uh, the analysis of our data, and we have got kind of proprietary models because of our work, is able to identify injured employees who have a psychological risk factor. And we find that 40% of all injured employees who lose time from work have at least one psychological or social risk factor. So that gives you a little bit of a understanding of the quantifying the, you know, the, you know, uh, the propensity for it. I think it's a good proxy for, you know, how folks are feeling across the workforce. Now once an injury occurs, mental health, well being risk factors unrelated to the individual's injury, such as fear. This is where I wanted to define a little bit what we mean by psychological or social risk. Social risk factors could be fear, it could be unrealistic expectations such as I don't feel like I'll ever get back to the point of where I was prior to the injury. Or it might be the opposite. I'm going to get better and I'm going to be doing what I was before within three weeks when really it's probably more six to eight weeks. So you know, so that's an example. Um, other examples are lack of sleep. We talked about that one a little bit. Um, minimal support or just lack of positive coping skills. Resilience is a learned trait.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And some individuals have a greater degree of resilience or Positive coping skills. So that certainly is some of what we're talking about. It also could be, um, perceived injustice, meaning that I'm blaming someone else for my current set of circumstances. And you can think how that can work against resolution in recovery. Um, we already talked about before the impact delayed recovery up to 50%. When an individual has one of these types of, uh, mental well being, psychological, social risk factors, uh, we believe that by prioritizing mental well being, employers can really foster a thriving and a productive work environment. That was one of the driving forces behind all of our motivation and our heart and our effort in this space. And we know that managers play a critical role in fostering a culture of well being at work, um, because they are often the first point of contact for employees experiencing stress or anxiety or concern. Uh, and so equipping those leaders with the right knowledge and tools to help support their team is super critical. Um, we also see now this is another learning from when we see an injured, uh, employee, we see employers who see the best overall outcomes are those who have already done the proactive work before an injury ever happens to make sure that they have support mechanisms in place like modified duties. So as the. We know that, um, uh, sedentary does not necessarily promote recovery. So as soon as they have some transitional duty abilities, finding a way to get them more back involved, integrated, uh, community involvement showing value is important. So tools like return to work programs are important. Um, also clear communication protocols, such as, for example, if an employee is injured and they never hear from their manager throughout that recovery process, what does that say to them? Do I have a fear for my job? Is my job at Jeopardy? Do they, do they care? Do they think that, you know, that I'm faking my condition?

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: So you can see how that would just kind of set some of those things up. Lawyers who really bridge that gap and have those support mechanisms in place see overall better results for recovery.

Speaker A: And it's interesting if you think about it. You know, I have loved ones who have had, um, workers comp situations. I'm just thinking of, you know, it's a paperwork thing, right? They're like, oh, I'm on workers comp, and there's forms to fill out. But what I'm hearing from their perspective, but what I'm hearing you say is it's more holistic, right? If it's. I have, I have this workers compensation unfortunate situation. But the, and my, my leader's in touch. I know I'm at a place where people cared about mental health from the jump um, I'm hearing conversations about if I do have some skills that I can do, going back to work sooner than later. That gives you a sense of purpose, that gives you a sense of, like, pride. And it's not as lonely and isolating to be back at home. There's a social piece of work that you miss. So all of those things holistically feel very different than the narrative I sometimes hear at backyard barbecues with people chatting about workers comp. Um, and I think that, you know, what you said earlier about, um, distraction. You know, here we sit in 2026. I mean, the historians will write the book at some point, but, like, I don't know if a society has ever lived with as much distraction as we have now. Like, if you are brave enough to turn on the news, it's a teen spit distraction. Like, you know, if you are, you know, trying to integrate AI and figuring out how to do that, you know, kind of alongside with work and integrate AI into your work, that's distracted. So it's like being a righty and suddenly have to write with your left hand for folks to integrate AI into the way that they work. You know, there's a lot of coming at folks. And so I think at a baseline, I think the world is a little bit distracted right now. So I think if that's kind of table stakes, it's like, where do we go from there? And, um, I just love the holistic approach you take. And if you have an organization that really also just has leaders who are educated on that link between the mental health factors and the recovery, I think you have such a good starting point. There's also something about, um, about the stigma. And can we just talk about that for a second? I think that there can be a bit of a stigma if. In a lot of organizations, if you talk about, uh, mental health. And Jessica, you were talking earlier about leaders kind of being so vulnerable. And I always love, um, on our podcast, when we can give listeners these real, tangible examples. I always say, if you learned three things to take back to your desk, it was a successful podcast. And I made a note of that. Having a true toolkit where leaders are not, um, hesitant to talk about just what it is to be human on the big stage or in a pod, you know, in a series, videos, whatever it might be. But just to show up in a more human way again, if you've got a workers comp situation and you're thinking about, wow, I was at that town hall two years ago where a leader was more vulnerable, you Just you're not as scared, um, of what it is to come back to work. And I just think that that all is big. Are there any other kind of examples, Jessica, that kind of jump out from all the work that you've done at the Institute of other ways that organizations have really made, um, made employees feel that they're seen more holistically?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? I just had a thought as you were talking about, like, toolkit and kind of the practical things that the takeaways. Um, so I think, you know, I think we all have platforms to really enact that are already. We already have them. We already have one. Another example. Um, so the Travelers Institute, uh, we got to, uh, ring the opening bell of the New York Stock Exchange last year. And of course, that's high visibility moment for any. There's a lot of media and other attention that come along with it. So, of course, it's like months and months in planning, and you build a whole campaign around it. So we decided, like, what are we going to use this moment of visibility for? And decided to do it through our Forces at Work initiative on shining a spotlight on employee mental well being. So we invited a former US Surgeon General, we invited a lot of our business in for a symposium afterwards, and the whole day and all the pickup and discussion around it was on shining a light on employee mental wellbeing. So that's just another example of, you know, using what you have and opportunities that you have to really take that message a little bit further.

Speaker A: Yes. And so for a leader, just thinking about kind of what a year, you know, a year unfolding. It could be a quarterly all hands town hall that they do with their employees. It could be weekly huddles that they do. Um, we had, uh, I interviewed years ago, the executive director of nami, which is a, um, mental health organization nationally, and he had shared that a hack was to start every meeting, every week to just kind of say to everyone on the team, where are you one to ten? Like, one is your birthday. Like, you are like on a roller coaster, best life. And 10 is you've got the flu. Like, where are you in between? And just. You would say, where are you one through ten? And folks would just understand over time that if Susie always says A2, and Susie shows up and she's like, hey, I'm at 8 today, that they might realize they don't need the details, but Susie might need a moment to just kind of get the deck done and get the presentation sent to you. Or Susie might be running Late for a meet, whatever it is. But just like Susie might need a little bit of care and feeding more than usual because she usually clocks in at a 2. But just like that consistency of just always trying to get the seven to eight hours of sleep, always trying to have make sure that your plate is full of different colorful foods, right? Always making sure that you're taking the multivitamin, like doing it on the regular so it isn't like such a big shift. And like Richard was saying, like this brand new learned skill when you're suffering from an injury, right? Just kind of creating these habits. And I think leaders just have such a platform as you said, to do those things with consistency. Um, one of our clients was doing this cool thing where everybody kind of logged in their steps or having a contest. Like a team gets to go and like have an extra day off if they get the top number of steps for their team. It's like these little things that you can do as a platform. Um, and making them fun doesn't hurt either.

Speaker C: Um, one of the other things you're making me think of that we try to highlight with our Forces at Work initiative is you named a couple of them. Just being able to ask, are you okay? And there's different ways of being able to do that. Um, or fun activities that build community and involvement. Um, is certainly a really good one. Another one is just observation. A leader who is really in tune is going to notice that someone is just off from their normal baseline. And when that happens, just being able to ask, hey, how are you doing? And sometimes we're afraid to do that as leaders because we think we're going to be, uh, looked for as being able to provide the solution. And sometimes it's just someone feeling like they're cared for enough that you were the asked. And then we forget how powerful just being able to listen is absolutely just being able to walk through, hey, I'm dealing with something, here's what I'm going through. But sometimes it does mean, you know, hearing what somebody might be going through and then pointing them in a direction of a resource or a help. But just, I think just there are different ways to show you care. And as you show that you care, you know, great things can happen always.

Speaker B: And I'll add to when we did that symposium in New York, we also, um, did a survey of small and medium sized business managers, um, in New York about employee mental health. And 63% of managers in New York had already been having those mental conversations with employees. So that was a positive sign. But only 29% have received any real training on how to do it. So I do think that, um, hearing from your organization, um, just to. I think lots of us have gut instincts about what we should do or shouldn't do, but sometimes not enough. And when we've convened these conversations all over the country with our business partners to talk about this, one of the things that I hear the most is, well, I'm not a mental health professional, so it feels I don't want to overstep. So I think what Chris said, uh, is just spot on. Even, even just hearing that or hearing that message reinforced from internally within your organization is so valuable.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And you know, it's. We're, I think in the US Specifically, we're a very litigious society. So I think that so many leaders who are, who uh, are long tenured especially, they've been working a long time, they were taught by their leaders, don't ask a thing. It is so personal if someone don't even ask. And I think there's muscle memory there that leaders have to. But what I see is the more recent. The young career professionals who kind of came of age during the time where there was less stigma and also maybe started their first job or internship during the pandemic. And maybe they're just leading a small group of people now. That's just how they roll. They're more authentic and there's less stigma from the jump. So I also am optimistic if we look ahead 20, 30, 40 years, um, what the workforce holds. I'm very much hoping that there is less stigma and that we can have people kind of show up more holistically and you, um, uh, know, uh, to sit with someone and say, how are you really, really doing? Again, it can feel dangerous. Um, but I think the magic is not to solve the problem. Um, it's more to say. I think that sounds hard. And here are some resources that can help, as you said. Right. Whether it's an employee assistance program or sometimes you do need it is that involved where you do need to take a leave of absence, whatever it is. Or maybe it's more flexibility with your schedule, whatever it is. But just to not. You don't have to solve everything for the employee. It's just more about, um, here are some tools that are available to you and just human to human. It sounds. That sounds like a lot. And I'm thinking of you. Sometimes it's all employees need to hear. So, um, yeah. Jessica, before we wrap any other. Because I'm always looking for Those nuggets. I love that stat that you shared about how 60 plus, um, percent of employers said that they're having conversations and 20 plus employers said, by the way, I've had no training. That's a gap. Are there any other stats that people. And so what that says to me is there's a call to action that we should look for ways for our folks to get additional, um, tools. And that's why I'm so excited about these webinars that you're doing. I want to shine a light on those. But does anything else kind of jump out as a tangible example or just a stat that we can take away from today's conversation?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely, I will. This was a big aha moment for me throughout this whole process of our Forces at Work initiative. We had, um, a former CDC official on Dr. Casey chose Wood, who at the time running a CDC center on Occupational health. And he, um, had also been a family faculty physician for many years prior to that. Uh, so I'll never forget he shared that the influence he had on his patient's health as their primary care provider, in his opinion, paled in comparison to the influence that a direct manager had on someone's health. Um, and I just thought that was. I will never forget it. I will never forget that he. That he shared that. Um, and I just kind of leave that as a final thought in terms of really letting it sink in the role that we all play as managers, leaders. And I will say, um, just for our. You know, I mentioned that our webinar series as well as our podcast series is free and open to the public. So if you're interested in checking out that for Chose Wood or the one on sleep, um, you can find it on our website, travelersinstitute.org or the Traveler Risk and Resilience podcast.

Speaker A: Love. Love with a capital L. Thank you so much. This was, again, you've always been an organization that I've kind of been a fan girl of because I, I just have known how seriously you've taken this and the research behind it because again, I'm in lots of rooms with C level leaders and they say that sounds so squishy. Like, love what you're saying, Jim. But literally, like, it's like, how's it going to earn me money? I mean, they kind of say, you know, that sounds like it costs a lot. We can't get all soft on people. And I'm always really hungry for stats that really ground the leader in the ROI that they get. It doesn't just feel good, but you also can get greater productivity retention, uh, et cetera. And so, um, we have to meet people where they are in the language that they're speaking. And so these stats are really incredibly helpful. Jessica and Rich, thank you so much for really being trailblazers in this space. Keep on doing your work, and I'm just going to keep on being a fan girl here on the sidelines. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thank you, Jamie.

Speaker C: Thank you, Jamie.

Speaker A: Take good care.