Will AI Replace Jobs? Hartford's Plan for the Future of Work

Speaker A: This is cybersound, your simplified and fundamentals focused source for all things cybersecurity.

Speaker B: Welcome to Cybersound. I'm your host, Jason Puffall. Uh, joined again today by Jeff Auker, the director of development services for the City of Hartford. Um, Jeff, I appreciate you coming back. That's a challenge for having me good conversations.

Speaker C: Uh, I'm glad, I'm glad I enjoyed it last time. Let's see what we can, uh, we can get into this time around. Yeah.

Speaker B: And you know, so honestly, for me, a big, a big part of the podcast is its educative nature and bringing people together who, you know, can provide some insight a little bit into maybe a specific topic or, you know, in this case, you know, the going on in Connecticut, in the, in the city of Hartford in particular. Um, but in fairness to the podcast, I do have to try to find that segue into, hey, you know, technology, security, AI, et cetera. Um, and the last time we spoke, we chatted for quite a while about really Hartford's efforts to start developing, uh, a workforce, uh, that can compete in the age of AI, uh, can address, uh, some of the likelihood of some of the job disappearing and how we actually re, educate, retool folks. Um, and I know you put a lot of effort into that, so I think that's kind of the foundation of where I want to spend our time today. But maybe if you could give a minute of your background for those people who maybe didn't listen to the first podcast and then we'll go from there. Sure.

Speaker C: Um, so everybody, Jeff Hawker, as he said, I run development services in the City of Hartford. And that's, ah, a rather prosaic title, but it covers pretty much anything to do with billing. Um, so economic development, small business development, community development planning, zoning, blight, licensing, inspections, that all comes through here. And on top of that, um, we've been really driving the mayor's agenda around AI, uh, technology and workforce. Um, this is my first gig in the public sector. I'm two years into it now. Um, I came from Infosys where I was, uh, running the Hartford Innovation Center. Uh, we built up about a thousand jobs there twice once before COVID and then had to do it again after Covid. So got some real world experience, um, building a tech workforce here in Hartford and in Connecticut. And before, uh, that I was with PwC in Hartford back in the day. But, uh, you know, had some, had some talks with Roonan and he's a persuasive guy and got me in on the agenda Here.

Speaker B: So if you could then let you know. Last year I think, felt like maybe the beginnings of the conversation, uh, relative to Hartford's. I mean maybe repositioning isn't exactly the right word, but, you know, starting to rethink, uh, the impact that I will have on jobs. Uh, you've had a year now uh, to start sort of building up, uh, the idea of Hartford as a, as an AI hub and I think supporting some of some of the businesses. Right. Some of the big insurance players and some of the big businesses in Hartford. Um, spend a minute, if you would, on where we, you know, where you sit today relative to roughly 12 months ago.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, it's, it's been a whirlwind. Um, I mean the technology has been changing far more rapidly than I think. Well, obviously than anything he has before and faster than we, I think anybody reasonably expected to it. But to ground it in where, you know, what the mission was. The mayor before I joined said he had two things he wanted from AI. One, he wanted to figure out how AI could help us govern better and provide better services to the residents, the businesses, everybody here in the city. And secondly, and this I think was the most important piece was how do we ensure that our residents and our businesses are prepared for this next round of technology. And the workforce piece came in incredibly importantly because if you look back on it, Hartford was able to weather, um, better than some cities. Um, just the collapse of manufacturing back in the 60s and 70s as that was the way you got into the middle class, that was your entry level job. You go down to the factory, down the street, get a job, work your way up. Um, when that went away, we had the benefit of the insurance companies around here which provided some great entry level jobs in the contact centers and claims and all that. Well now as those are starting to be impacted by AI, the mayor wanted to make sure that we had the capabilities to train our workforce and um, provide access and opportunity in an urban area that, you know, we've missed the last few digital cycles. So that was the mission and we started really looking hard at what are the fundamental conditions that Hartford lacks. Like why, what was, what's going to be different this time around and what the learnings that I had from working at emphasis and working in the school systems around here on a couple boards was that the talent is there and the desire is there. It needed some nurturing, it needed some guidance, it needed some facilities. And so we really started focusing in on how do we figure out the right partners with schools, um, understand what the residents want, the small businesses want and what the big corporations want. And it really focused in on workforce. I'm not going to go to Travelers or Hartford Healthcare or the Hartford and tell them, you know what, what I means they're so far ahead of anything that we'd be doing here in the city. That's not what we're, we, we, we may have over rotated a little bit at the beginning like how can we help, like what can hard for you to help you with. And that came across as how can we make you better at AI?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: You know we got some people doing some amazing things here in the city. And what it really always came back to from, from all, you know the, the residents wanted opportunities to learn, improve their businesses and maybe you know, get a career path. The big corporations said hey look, we'll get the data scientists, we'll get the frontier folks. We, we, we got to compete for them. But we need a workforce around here that knows how to use good, use AI with good judgment and their personal in their, in their, and their work lives. Right. Just because that's how it's going to be going. And then you know the small and medium sized businesses were very much like how do we get access to some of these tools and these capabilities. So it really focused us less on content and programs and more on how do we create the utilities in the city that will basically support this, this development of workforce. And it's, we've had some great successes. Uh, we can get into some details there but we opened up um, about 67000 square feet here on Constitution Plaza. It's the old Trinity, uh, Liberal Arts Activation Lab. We're partnering with them and that's our, that's our uh, our pirate ship. That's where we're starting. Uh, we've been having meetups, we've been having um, training sessions, Quantum CTs now taking office hours up here in Hartford, a uh, couple days a week. Um, it's just a place where we can you know, have a place to assemble, attract people, talk about these things and then we can get into the, the bigger capital ask with the state which is still ongoing. And that's a bit of a different uh, driver. But we feel good, we feel good about the attention we were able to gather and partners we've been able to assume.

Speaker B: So you mentioned a couple of interesting things here. That quantum ct, uh, I'm sure they're jumping in because they're trying to figure out how do we utilize AI Less of a Job change, but more of an opportunity to leverage AI to potentially advance their research relative to quantum. Right. So I think we'll set that aside as an idea for a minute. A. I'm curious and maybe this is just your opinion, maybe this is a broader discussion. Um, do you see AI replacing jobs? Do you see AI creating jobs? It has. That has to come up pretty routinely in what you're doing, right? And you know, how, how concerned are companies around potential replacement of jobs or how, how concerned are people even around the replacement of jobs?

Speaker C: Um, I mean the concern is everywhere. I mean AI as a brand is not doing very well right now in the press and some of the people leading it, uh, put us there. But um, in terms of the impact on jobs, Jeff's opinion, mildly well informed. I think the elimination of jobs and the layoffs caused by AI have been overstated. I think the impact on just the dearth of entry level jobs has been understated. So it's not that jobs that exist now are going away at some unexpected or crazy rate. Where I'm most concerned is now people are, uh, businesses are getting rid of that bottom layer, that entry level, because the middle management and the managers can use AI to, to do some of those tasks that are more process driven. But that's how you learn. So that's really what concerns me. And the evidence is strong. And you know, as we were talking before this, I've got five kids, all uh, in their early 20s. So I see how that's impacting them. And it's just the job market is a very different job market for the entry level folks.

Speaker B: And I think some of the conversations we've had, and honestly I think in a way you and I, we, we, we might get some of the time value of AI out of this for a short period of time because I think, uh, not everybody's using it necessarily. There's an opportunity to increase your production and, and get some of that benefit. But I think what we're really seeing is the expectations for production have increased to the point where people say, I know you can turn this around in 30 minutes, where it used to take maybe four hours. So I expect more out of you and I expect you to be using AI and I think it's shifting to your point really quickly to where now people need the tools. If uh, frankly, if you don't have access to the tools, you're at a disadvantage. And if you haven't started to really learn prompt engineering and just some of the basics around how to get repeatable and effective output from them. You're going to fall by the wayside, I would imagine. I don't want to speak for you, but I would imagine that's part of the underpinning of what you're trying to train in.

Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. And here's, here's a, um, just a reality that the kids have to navigate right now. AI in schools, whether it be K through 12 or higher ed, basically is if you use it, you're shamed.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Do this on your own, you're not going to get the value of it. AI is bad in the educational environment. But day one on your first job, they're expecting these students to be AI natives and suddenly like, how do you use it in your job? But, uh, but I was cheating yesterday if I used it and today I'm fired if I don't. And that's this. We, we haven't figured that out. The schools don't know what to do and they get that. But what do you do?

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think, you know, I, the good news, I think is four years ago, that's all it was, was all right, you know, it's plagiarism and cheating, without a doubt. Now, uh, because I also do a fair work with folks in higher ed. Uh, the conversations in the language is much more, it is a tool you should use. Can't be the output, it can't be your intellectual property. But if you need to write a snippet of code to facilitate something, use AI to do it. Because it's a tool and you should use it. And I think now you're starting to get that cool groundswell and that recognition of don't ignore it, don't, don't bury your head in the sand, take advantage of it, but you just can't put a prompt in and then submit it as your, as your work. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And this is where I think the value of, you know, actual real world experience, hand on, hands on project work, mentorship, um, public speaking, uh, the ability to take whatever know code you wrote and explain it to choose which code to write when the cost of shipping is basically zero. Right. You ship anything. Now you have to decide what to ship. Um, and then on the more on the broader side, like if you used AI to give you background or come up with, you know, refine arguments, get up there and defend it. Get up there and defend it in front of other folks. And I, I see the, you see pedagogy going a little more that way, which I think could make us all smarter down Right.

Speaker B: So, um, maybe segue a little bit. Um, can we talk a little like specifically about some of the programs that you have in place, maybe some of the partners that you, that you, that you actually have in place with. Um, the idea of maybe upskilling versus reskilling or you know, trying to replace jobs like that. Like, you know what, somebody who's interested in learning about AI, to take it to the workforce, how do they engage you, how do they kind of go through a curriculum, if maybe that's the best way to think about it. Uh, what does that process look like?

Speaker C: So, um, all work in progress right now, but we do have some, some interesting pilots that have gone on. So I'll go with the architecture and then some examples. The, the core, the core partner in all this is kaya, the Connecticut AI alliance, which started as a, you know, before five schools, um, that were going to be really the backbone, the academic backbone of what we were doing here, including UConn, some of the other local schools. And then we had some folks like University of New Haven step up and say, hey, they're interested in what we're doing. And eventually this grew into all 19 higher education organizations in the state. The first state that has an actual alliance focused on AI and um, the passage of SB5, the, the long standing debated bill for the last three years, um, provided some key funding for Kaya and some key direction that they're going to be the centerpiece for the state. You know, this collection of um, schools for high performance computing for all the high, high volume networks we need to do. So really the things that would take scale, they're going to be that academic partner for the state and that includes UConn and a lot of other folks as well. So that's a great move. And so that's a core partner and what the architecture that we've set up with them that will expand to other areas. Uh, first the, the, the problem statement, you take somebody like Trap. We hear this from Travelers, Hartford, lots of folks, they love the idea of hands on training. They love the idea, especially in tech, of um, internships, use cases, use cases relevant to their business done on their tech stack. But the typical process would be you'd have a manager, hiring manager, have to go school by school, department by department by professor to figure out who's got students in that are working on something like that. By the time you go through all that, you know, semester's over and you move on. So think of what Kaya is putting together here. They're calling it the like, um, it's a capstone connection piece. It's, it's really creating a marketplace so any employer can come to us, right, and can say here is the technology I'm interested in, here are the skill levels I'm looking for and here's the technology stack I'm looking to do what schools have in higher ed, have ah, students that could, could participate in this and how do we triage the use case into a way that will, you know, match the skill sets. And so you're basically just creating a marketplace where you can exchange these, uh, the demand for labor from the people actually hiring for the supply and higher ed, you know, with the skills that are coming in and you get the

Speaker B: feedback loop and that is great feedback to higher ed because they get some clarity on are they actually now, uh, bringing students forward who can, who can have jobs right when they come up.

Speaker C: And the case in point, so Trinity College, one uh, of our great partners in all of this, um, they jumped into it last summer and they got 13 students. They said we're going to do a senior project with you. And basically it was Danny Brer and the entrepreneurship folks over there said well it's going to be AI and helping it develop in Hartford and helping you figure it out. And so we had this group of students that were working with um, different corporations, doing use cases, doing projects, uh, that there was a big one they did for the Connecticut Children's Medical center. And suddenly these guys were getting job offers, internships, um, and just the connections were there. And this was all as we were figuring it out. So that was Trinity kind of jumping in, taking a leap of faith and doing it. And you see the demand, you see the connection and what that's really spawned now is that center I was telling you about up at 10 Constitution Plaza. I point out, because I'm model constitutional, um, you know, we're having meetups two, three times a week. The Connecticut AI Alliance, Women, uh, in AI groups. We've had startups already spin out of that, I mean small ones but you know the people are meeting, you have them, you know, we do a session, it's supposed to go from 5 to 7 and you got people still there at 8:30, 9 o' clock on the whiteboards. So that's creating the intake mechanism here. And so that's the core of what we want to do. And then there's parts that will support that from both a uh, financial standpoint and more of a, uh, seeding the ground to get people interested.

Speaker B: The universities, ah, you were able to get all the universities to participate in this, huh? Yeah.

Speaker C: And so I want to be clear on who did it. So um, the Connecticut Council uh, of Independent Colleges. CCS came out in been a college. I always get it. But Jen Widness, um, okay. You know, really started that uh, that coalition and Vahib Bazadin, a professor from the University of New Haven who's cyber and AI, he may. If, if I haven't connected you with him, I should. He can get.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, he can get into the geekiness all you want there. Um, they really took the lead where Jen worked the, the relationships and the schools and getting you work in higher education, you know, getting schools to agree on a path forward. It was pretty tough. So an amazing job there anchoring of that and then just the, the sheer competence and expertise of the heed out there talking to the other professors, talking to the department heads about what we're trying to do brought, brought that together. So they were the ones that took this from an idea to help, you know, goofy idea in Hartford to really being the centerpiece now. You know, something that's written into law of the Connecticut's approach to high performance computing, networking and AI. So it's pretty cool. And that's all Jen and Vahee.

Speaker B: So uh, yeah, Connecticut's approach. So I know that we talked a little bit about Ah, the 10 Windsor Street. I think it's 10 Windsor Street.

Speaker C: Uh one, uh, hundred fifty, one hundred fifty. One hundred fifty.

Speaker B: I don't know my address well enough. Uh, that's why rough building, uh, one that you are actively remediating. Um. Right. I think you and I chatted a little bit about uh, the. I, you know, the, the maybe the public's idea that it would be a data center but you know, the, the impracticality of that. So I'd love to spend a second there and then you know, and maybe a little bit of a segue of what do you envision that space potentially becoming?

Speaker C: Ultimately yeah, that, that, that's important question here. So um, for those that just cite it, if you've been to a yard goats game, you look out over center field is a really ugly um, old brutalist gray piece of cement. It was built in the late 60s, early 70s to be a data processing center. It's uh, basically check caching center, check clearance center. Um, it's been fallow for going on 20 something years. Horribly blighted, dangerous stuff going on inside. So another benefit of this work, you know, kind of like Tang coming out of the NASA program was it really focused us on that particular lot and got the state and others to come together. It's going to be about a $11 million project, I think, to take that building down. Um, there's floors of water underneath. Just needs to go away from. From a, you know, from a day job point of view. So that's coming down, and that's a huge win for, for the city, no matter what goes there, um, the intent of what we want to do. So we're still working with the state on the, um, that $100 million innovation cluster fund that they had offered up a couple years back. Half of that has gone to New Haven. As, as expected, they did a great job with their bioscience, um, application there. And we've been going back and forth with the state on exactly the technologies and the industries that we would be serving here as we bring all this programmatic work that we were just talking about together to give it a place. Um, you know, we're just working through some of the final details and honestly, I hope we can maybe have an emergency cut in before you go to press on this one.

Speaker B: Okay, that'd be great. We can do that.

Speaker C: Yeah. So we're feeling really encouraged by it. But, um, you know, the, you know, we have something that is there that's been called a data center for decades. Right. Not a data center in any modern sense, but the words matter. Um, when we originally put this thing together, we were calling it the, I don't know, the Hartford Applied AI Center. Um, because you've been in tech. You get techies together to try and name something, you just lost a week of productivity.

Speaker B: Sounds good when you're done.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Oh, we had some bad, bad ideas. Um, so it just kind of stayed prosaically, you know, Hartford Applied AI Center. Um, we never thought about data center for a variety of reasons we get into. But then honestly, data centers over the last 18 months have become one of the legitimately scariest environmental, social issues out here. I mean, you got, you know, people want to put something twice the size of Manhattan in Utah. You got Elon Musk with something like 39 methane processors to, um, to run the Colossus down in Memphis. Um, so there's people doing things with data centers and AI, all the words that we're using but that are. That are horrible for the environment and would never. We, uh, just not something we support. So we're, we're in that. And so we need. It's on us to explain what it is that's not that. Just the sheer practicality of it though. Um, you know, it's billions to build a data center. And you don't build data centers where you have high cost of electricity. And we have the highest cost, I believe, of electricity in the lower 48. Can't do it. Um, the site we're looking at would never be big enough. But the point behind it is it's never. This has always been a place where the compute would be done elsewhere. We'd use the cloud to access what we need to. Um, you know, we're not going to be training LLMs in AI. That's where you need a huge iron. Those dark centers that do all the bad stuff. This legitimately is going to be like, um, a building you'd see with Accenture PwC, similar to what we have at Infosys. Um, of high tech, yes, but no more high tech than, um, you know, a modern office building doing tech work. We do plan to bring Makerspace Connecticut over in there, so there'll be some big industrial stuff there, but they're already in the bottom of G Fox. And that's not, that's CNC machines and lathes and 3D print.

Speaker B: More traditional manufacturing.

Speaker C: It's not, it's not server, Henry. So, you know, those, those data centers of, you know, just racks and racks of thousands of servers that are dark and air conditioned. That's not nothing like what doing we're building, but hopefully what we're doing, we have. We can respond very clearly in the next week or two from what we decide how, how the final pieces of this with the state. We'll be able to be very clear about what's going to be there. And um. But it's, it's not a data center. But that's on us. It's, it's. I understand the messaging and how the gal there.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you know, you, you mentioned already the push and pull between, you know, the benefits of AI, but then AI also, you know, being its own worst marketing engine and all of these negative things, you know, but it's, it's, it's environmental impact, potential impact on jobs. Like there's a lot of things that people take away that are negative about it. And, and I speak to, you know, young people pretty regularly who simply say I don't use it because, you know, morally I think, you know, the, the, the environmental, the climate impact is too great and I don't want to be a part of that. So, so, uh, I don't envision that changing dramatically Here. You still need compute to make all of this stuff work. Uh, but I suspect there's going to be a variety of people who are happy that Harper is not trying to build some big AI data center downtown.

Speaker C: Oh, me too. Me too. And hold us do that.

Speaker B: We're good with that. Yeah, it's just impractical. So it sounds like, if I recall, you're doing a bunch of that work on that building now with the idea of actually it coming down. Probably. Probably sometime in the summer.

Speaker C: Yeah. So it's so dirty on the inside, and it's this weird, complex building. I mean, there's like nine contractors involved, all specialized in very specific things. Blowing up the building wasn't an option. There's too much in it that you could not just have a puff of dust. Um, so they've been working now for several months on the inside, stripping it down to what will probably be like 6, 8 inches of wall, but all stripped out from the inside and carted out. So anything, any of the contaminants on the inside will be stripped down. And then the plan is the day after the last home game this season, we'll have a little bit of a boom. Uh, we might be able to do some, you know, a ceremonial boom in a few weeks. I'm part of it, but, yeah, this. This one's complicated, and we're being very careful because you're doing it in an urban area. Um, it's a dirty building, and it takes expertise. So. Yeah, no, no, no. Dramatic wrecking ball or C4.

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, that I know the yard goats, uh, every year they do, you know, fireworks at a variety of times. I think the last game they might. You could always time it with that, make it a little.

Speaker C: I see chompers and choo choo with, uh, you know, the, the. The Acme Roadrunner, uh, plunger for the.

Speaker B: That's the way to go.

Speaker C: See what we see, what we can pull off.

Speaker B: Uh, so, you know, kind of, kind of trying to wrap this up a little bit. Uh, and frankly, I hope that we can sort of speak annually, at least about this. But what does, say, three years look like for you? What does success in three years sort of manifest itself as?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think the two leading indicators would be, um, our big corporations around here are hiring a lot more locally and they're expanding locally. They're not looking to other markets, um, you know, like Atlanta or Austin or something else to put satellite offices in to get talent.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: They're going, this is a great way for Me to get talent. And then the other side of it would be you have residents and you know, of the city and the region going, this is where I go. As we're figuring out how to teach AI versus how to use it in, in the bill, you know, in your job. We can have these co curricular, we can have these extracurricular, these hands on pieces that extend not just to higher ed, but to adult learners. People have been displaced by AI through different programs of the state. Um, they're going, this is where I go. And you know that, that's really, I mean, both sides of that market working. Well, you know, ideally we've got that building up. Um, um, you've got an entry level which is open to the public. Um, we've been talking about an idea which is basically an AI Genius bar where residents can come in and say, you know, here's my phone. What do I do with this? You, um, can make an appointment for a restaurant. You know, just say, hey, how do I fix my ordering, my scheduling, my food choices, things like that. You know, just spend an hour the same way you walk into a genius bar and you go, I bought this thing, you know, help me make it go.

Speaker B: I don't know what to do with it.

Speaker C: But, but if we don't have that street level connection, we fail. And if we don't have the big corporations and universities going, ah, uh, this, this really help us connect. We failed. And hopefully we've got some bells and whistles around that too that could come with doing something cool.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you know, I applaud you for putting the amount of effort and time into it that you have it. To say I took people by surprise maybe is a little bit of overstatement, but I think the you, the amount of change that has resulted in the growth of AI, I, uh, do think a lot of people by surprise and the ability for AI, especially agentic, to do some of the call center work, which I know is prevalent in Hartford, and you know, some of those lower, lower entry level type jobs, uh, I mean, it's important to be thinking about what's the impact of those folks. How do you actually start, you know, making sure that they are, uh, you know, able to be employed at, you know, at the current or a better level going forward. So I, I mean, I wish you all the luck as you move forward with this.

Speaker C: Appreciate it. I appreciate the support and the, the chance to talk about it. Um, yeah, I mean the mayor's, the mayor's behind this. He's been speaking very um, passionately about this. This is not a cycle of. In the job market that we can miss. And, you know, you talk about the uncertainty and how things are going, um, it's not going to go away.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: So let's. Is the mayor has been saying, let's take the lead here at Hartford. Let's not wait for the federal government. Some of the questionable ideas coming out of there on AI or the CEOs, who are clearly motivated by some other, uh, you know, monetary, um, and financial decisions that, you know, may not be consistent with what we're talking about here to, you know, to run a good city. Um, let's. Let's bring this stuff in, get it out on the table, let's learn it, let's figure out how it works for hard Hartford and, you know, partner and we can be the model for the state, hopefully the region and other municipalities moving forward.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's the goal. Up with it. Honestly, that's part of it. Just try to keep up with it.

Speaker C: Yeah, I know. We're in it. And I mean, every week, you know, another demonstrates something else or, you know, and you're like, what, what, what can we do now? This is awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it is amazing how quickly and then, and then something that worked, you know, a week ago, all of a sudden it says, I don't. I don't do that anymore. Yeah, well, how come? Right.

Speaker C: But, yeah, uh, I've been fighting with Claude on that a little bit. Gemini evolve. We're using Gemini here in the city, um, which has been a great tool. Uh, but, you know, right now it's just for desktop productivity. We haven't created any big apps or anything like that, but, you know, in our own dog food use, our own systems and our own, um, project work here to improve how we do business.

Speaker B: Well, hey, on that note, ah, we'll certainly touch base in 12 months. Uh, if there's, if there's big news in the interim, you reach out, I'm happy to have you on.

Speaker C: I will. You'll hear.

Speaker B: That's cool. Uh, so, as always, it's a pleasure to have you on. Uh, I appreciate it. I always say this, if anybody has any questions, uh, about what's going on in Hartford, um, I'm happy to try to make an introduction to Jeff, but he's clearly visible at LinkedIn and the, uh, city website, so you can find them on your own as well. But happy to chat as always, Jason.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: We'd love to hear your feedback. Feel free to get in touch at, uh, Vancord on LinkedIn. And remember, stay vigilant, stay resilient. This has been Cybersound.