#38: Valerie Hope - Creating Work Culture through Curiosity, Connection and Centeredness

Speaker A: Welcome to the Inside at Work podcast. I'm, um, your host, Ken Blackwell. On this podcast, I talk with people from diverse fields of work and explore the insights and breakthroughs that have changed the way they work and sometimes even transformed the way they live their lives. Along the way, we'll delve into topics like big hearted leadership, mentoring and coaching, conversational intelligence, and how to create a more human workplace and generally how to make work and life more productive, engaging and rewarding. My guest today is Valerie Hope. She's CEO of Connect2Joy LLC and as a native Spanish speaker from the Republic of Panama, Valerie serves as an empowering globe trotting leadership coach and professional speaker. For more than 20 years. She's inspired and activated leaders to come alive. Leaders from organizations in a variety of industries have benefited from her contributions as a coach and facilitator and having had a front row seat in the lives from people all over the world. She's best known for, uh, having lived with over 400 host families while traveling to more than 30 countries, asking such thought provoking questions that she almost became a criminal investigator and getting strangers to talk to one another. On her podcast, she calls Dallas, Texas home and has the cowboy boots to prove it. And she is my guest today on the Inside at Work podcast. So welcome, Valerie.

Speaker B: Thank you, Ken. Muchas gracias.

Speaker A: We wanted to talk today about diversity. And, uh, one of the things that you have is an incredibly diverse group of friends. Um, you've been around the world here, you've been to 30 different countries. You've got this, uh, amazing diverse group of friends. And so let's start with that. What's the impact of having such a diverse group of friends?

Speaker B: Oh, wow. Well, at the most basic level, my palate has completely expanded. I eat foods from a lot of different places. I grocery shop a lot of different ethnic stores. My music playlist is off the charts with music from all over the world. So I think that's like in just the basics, but I think it just gives me a different perspective on life, how people think and view the world from different perspectives. In Spanish, uh, we have a saying and it goes, cada cabeza es un mundo. I don't know if you. Do you speak Spanish, Ken?

Speaker A: The very smallest amounts.

Speaker B: All right. I don't know if you got that or not, but maybe your listeners may not. The phrase basically means every mind is its own world. And so when you think about how. And that doesn't necessarily mean somebody from a different country or culture, it could be somebody sitting right next to you. Right. Has a whole different level of, different view of life, different life experience. I think for me, it's really opened my eyes up to see things that I probably wouldn't have seen before or heard before, that different perspectives. Um, I'm an immigrant to the United States myself, and so I think a big part of it was just understanding a new country and being put in that position made me very empathetic and compassionate to others who have been in the same boat.

Speaker A: So. Yeah, let's get to the origins of some of this. Right. So you came as a relatively young person.

Speaker B: Yes, nine years old.

Speaker A: Years old.

Speaker B: Right, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and so, you know, that's seems like maybe the first exposure to, uh, a different culture. But then, you know, you did all this other traveling, so bring us through what led you to, to do all this other traveling. And maybe it's rooted, I don't know, uh, in, in that first move at nine years old.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, being originally from the Republic of Panama, we were from the capital city, so there's a lot of different ethnicities represented in Panama. When we moved to the States, it was because my father joined the US Military and in the army. When you live on bases, you also are privy to living with people who have lived in other countries and other states and come from different backgrounds. So that was kind of a constant. Every time we moved, we not only were, uh, introduced to a new culture in the different. For the different bases where we live, but also the different people in school, different neighbors, etc. So we did quite a bit of traveling with my dad. Not as much because we were a little older. My dad was actually on the higher end of, uh, I think it's no longer acceptable to enter the military at age 34, which is how old he was. He was on the high end of the spectrum at the time. So we didn't move as much by the time we hit high school. Um, by the time I hit high school, my brother, my older brother and I, we didn't move as much. We were really reluctant to uproot so often. But right after college, I took a job with a nonprofit leadership program, an international leadership program called Up With People. And in that program, I got to live with host families. I lived out of a suitcase for five years and in that time lived with tons of host families in homes all over the. All over the world, from Estonia to Venezuela, and also lived and worked with young people from all over the world as well. So that was a big, I think, life shifting experience in the Firms. So much of what I already shared about what it means to have a diverse group of friends in my life.

Speaker A: So what was the, I guess, the number one benefit for you of traveling? Was it just that expanding of your mind and your view of things, or what was the, I guess, the biggest positive impact? And then the corollary question, of course, is, so what was kind of the most challenging thing about being in all of those different cultures and all those different places?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me, the number one benefit, I would say, is just the ability to connect with anybody. I feel like the level of confidence that I have to just connect with people, regardless of whether they speak the language well or not. If I speak their language or they speak the language I speak, I have a level of confidence that I'm like, I think I can connect with just about anybody. And part of it was because it was tried and true. Sometimes I would only be in a host family for a number of days. And I'm talking, you live in their home, you sit at their dining room table, you sleep in their bed, you interact with families from all over. And in just a couple of days, being able to have a meaningful connection was inspiring. And so I think for me, that's the number one benefit. And I think I've always valued connecting with people. That's part of my own DNA. My innate sense of humanity was activated there. And the most challenging is probably the same thing. Having to connect with so many people, it can be overwhelming. It can be overwhelming. I sometimes feel a sense of responsibility even when I don't want to. To have to connect with people either because I don't see it happening with others. Others are not taking the time, making the effort to get to know or to include others. And I feel like I have to take on that role. And that can be exhausting. It can be, uh, added pressure. I feel sometimes that level of responsibility is a bit. Saps my energy. I'm an extrovert. I get my energy from people. But sometimes having the responsibility is like that extra you have to do it. It's more almost like an obligation, but it comes from myself. There's nobody telling me I have to. Those are, I think, the most challenging.

Speaker A: But the, the act of connection is work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think mental and emotional.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: One of the, one of the misnomers is that it, you know, particularly if we think about it just even in North American culture here, that it should just happen. And if we're thinking about work, um, culture as well, it should just happen. Um, and it doesn't just happen. You've got to work at it. And so I think if we think about what would be the applications for someone working in a job here in North America, um, as well as anywhere else, um, there probably are some keys to connection there. And that's one of my interests as well, is what creates and drives connection from your international experience, um, where there's some keys there or some commonalities that like, okay, so here's kind of a path where you can make that connection whether you've got the language or not. Right? I mean, it should be easier for us here if we're in the same culture, speaking the same language. It should be easier. Um, what for you are kind of some of the keys of connection? What makes that work happen?

Speaker B: What makes that work happen? One is being curious. I think you mentioned earlier that I could have been a criminal investigator, but that was because out of college, had I not gone the route that I did with this international leadership program, I interviewed for the Department of Homeland Security, which back then in the 90s was not called that. But, uh, a big part of it was I was curious as I was going through the interview process myself, asking questions. I'm sure there are a lot of other things that they look for and they appreciated about what I shared, but I think I would like to think a part of it was how inquisitive I was about how it worked and what they got out of the kind of work that they did and that sort of thing. And so that's probably the mental effort that it requires to connect, is how to suspend judgment and embrace curiosity. Like, okay, I don't really know what this person is saying or why they're saying that or how they're living and why they do things that way. But rather than saying, that's right or that's wrong or I like it or I don't like it, or even thinking that, pausing and just going, hey, Ken, so what. Tell me about what you just did. Why do you do it that way? And not from a way of, like, to challenge, but really because I want to understand where that's coming from. And whenever I've asked that question has opened up fascinating conversations with people. And it creates a sense of safety, which I think then could really highlight and expand the conversation level of connection exponentially.

Speaker A: There's two things there, the suspension of judgment, uh, and then the curiosity. And I think perhaps it is in that suspension of judgment where many people get hung up, uh, and particularly in an environment, kind of broadly speaking, Here, particularly these days where people are under stress, um, on verges of burnout, of just feeling overwhelmed, it is difficult from a default standpoint to not be judgmental, to not be reactive, to not be triggered by things that are different. That makes the curiosity piece, uh, a little bit more difficult to get to, um, being able to put yourself in that place of non judgment, uh, and holding back and then being neutrally curious about it. And I think that, hey, why do you do it that way? All depends on tone of voice. Right? And in terms of how that is, like, hey, howdy, why are you doing that that way? Uh, as opposed to a genuine, like, why did that happen? Um, and the openness and the invitingness that comes with that. Right. So being able to open ourselves to nonjudgment, open ourselves to then be curious. Right. Helps enable that, that connection. And that's kind of at the core of your work. Yes. So let's talk a little bit about your, Your work.

Speaker B: Um, before you, before you say that, there's something you said that just kind of sparked a thought in me. Um, because I think, you know, you said that the amount of stress that we experience sometimes can take us out of being curious or of suspending judgment. You know, when we were living on instinct, and I remember there was an author, her name is Alison Armstrong, she talked about human instinct versus the human spirit. And I think at its basis, at its basis, if the human. You know, as humans, we are programmed to survive. So we have these built in instinct that kick in automatically when all resources are low. Here is our generator. Right. Instinct. And instinct is usually, you know, fight or flight. Instinct is kill or be killed. Right. There's all these different things that we sometimes don't control consciously. But what I, what I m. What you said, that what it brought up to mind is how we have to fill our cup. And when I say fill our cup, I'm thinking about we have to feel so loved and so safe not to resort to that base instinct. In order for the human spirit to really be able to be felt and experienced, we really need to feel cared for. We need to care not only for ourselves, but we need to know that we have a community of people who are supportive and nurturing. And when we don't have that, it's so easy to fall into judgment. It's so easy to fall into fear. I had a conversation with somebody once that, um, expressed some views, some really strong, very controversial to me, uh, views about some political things. And I remember instinctively going, whoa, oh, this is going to be a hard conversation. And because I'm like, I don't have anything to lose. This person is not. This isn't like a family member or close friend necessarily, But I did want to engage in a meaningful interaction. I started embracing curiosity, but that's because I knew that I had plenty of support. I'm not looking for her for validation. I'm not looking for affirmation. I'm not looking for friendship. I didn't expect anything from her. I think when that. When, um, there's no need of reciprocation of any sort. My attachment was very minimal, and so I could be curious much more easily. And I remember asking her, well, where does that come from? What, what. How did you develop these ideas and these perspectives? And when she shared her about her childhood, she shared about her family upbringing, I was like, oh, that makes perfect sense. You know, it makes perfect sense. And when I shared that interaction with other people, other people also got triggered just with me sharing what, uh, the conversation was. And I'm like, what is that trigger in you? Why, why is that such a, uh, you know, why do you have that reaction to this example that I shared? And so those types of questions, I think, help keep the conversation rooted and grounded in who the person is and why they exist in the way they exist and why they've been put together. The way they've been put together. But it's only possible to get to it when I feel a sense of love and safety for myself where I'm not expecting that from you or anybody else.

Speaker A: And I think, yeah, that is so, so key. Right. Is that place that you're coming from. Because biologically, yeah, we're really wired to the negative. Um, you know, assume wrong, assume enemy, assume danger. Um, you know, so when we're at that instinctual level, um, you know, odds are it's a better choice, uh, to assume danger.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And then assume safety and be wrong.

Speaker B: So it's a better choice. It's a. It's the basic choice. And I think we have to insulate ourselves intentionally in order to not resort to that. I think we have other resources that could help us identify, make better choices around what's safe and what isn't. If we're able to use our full capacity of our mind, not just like this amygdala.

Speaker A: Exactly. Right. And so it's getting out of, you know, base. Base human animal to thinking human that enables us to do that. And, you know, the key of love and safety, right. Feeling, uh, that sense of security, you know. Yes. This is what, uh, you know, we talk about with psychological safety and teams and all of this. Um, so obviously that's there and the image of your cup, right. How the intentionality of how we're filling our cup and not letting it filled on us. Um, I think there's something you said for, you know, trying to expand our capacity, expand the size of our cup that allows us to maybe take in more, um, and you know, this idea of differentiating, uh, outcome from output.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Uh, what's, what's going to be the outcome of this interaction? You know, if we get hung up in the outcome of it, um, yeah, things can get really tough or if we instead focus on the output or what we're putting out.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: What is the thing if I'm sending out, you know, kind of open curiosity, you know, curious vibes. Okay, well then, you know, the conversation will go wherever. I'm not tied to a result, I'm not residing tied to an outcome. And if it doesn't go that way, then I'm going to feel, you know, threatened and in danger and all that. So putting yourself in that place, uh, is so critical to again feel, uh, love and safety. Feel, um, feel that sense of security to then open and be curious and ask, um, and at the same time not have to worry about where that other person is coming from. Uh, is again, I think kind of builds in that, that sense of centeredness that allows those difficult conversations to happen.

Speaker B: Yeah, centeredness. Centeredness I think is the key word because it's really a discipline to create a space for love and safety. And I really appreciate that you said expanding our capacity because. Yeah, it's one thing to know. What I think we talk about in terms of love generally has something to do with an exchange of some sort. Right. There's some I give so that I can receive and vice versa. But I do think what you just said about having to expand our capacity makes us responsible for also receiving love in ways that maybe we're not necessarily asking for. You know, that it's a, ah. That if someone is expressing an interest in what we do, that that's a way of showing love. When someone is offering our help and support even though we are capable of doing it ourselves, that's a way of them, um, expressing love. Right. Um, I had to work on that a lot because my family of origin, like my parents, my dad was in the military. I already said that. My mom was a school teacher. I have three brothers, I'm the only girl. So we weren't like A lovey dovey, huggy, touchy feely family. Um, heck, anytime I had a tear in my eye, I was like, what are you crying? There's nothing to cry about. Just get things done right. So, and I don't mean to make my family sound insensitive, but we were just much more focused on being effective and productive, I think. And the, the emotional growth happened much later for me in my life, you know, and my ex husband was from Argentina and much, much more emotionally expressive than I was, which is what attracted me to him, but also drove me crazy. But, um, but I could see he was such a great teacher for me because he really wasn't afraid to express himself. Whether he was sad or he was upset, if he was frustrated or irritated. All of his emotional expression, he had a range, whereas I didn't. And it wasn't until actually through our divorce process that I started to explore and expand myself in that way, the emotional expression of love. And when I came to realize how that was all connected to my own upbringing, um, I had a really powerful conversation. Um, after taking several workshops, I do a lot of personal development work. And um, I remember having a conversation with my brother and I realized, hey, you know what? We don't say I love you to one another. Like, what's up with that? Is that a choice? Do we make that choice intentionally in our family? And he was like, no. And I just shared how much I loved and appreciated him and what he brought to my life. And he said the same to me. And then I called my parents and I called my other two brothers and had a similar conversation. And we're like, you know what, we're not doing that anymore. If we can choose to stop. If we can choose to start something, we can choose to stop something. So I'd like to start saying I love you. We'll do that now. So we do that after every phone call now. Every single one. Whether we see each other face, uh, to face or on the phone. And it's been fascinating how to your point, expanding capacity for love. I feel so much more nurtured and supported now than I did years ago when I was being really self sufficient and effective and productive. Right now I can do both. I can have that and be, um, be as loved as possible.

Speaker A: And the idea even that it is dynamic, right? You know, that it is not a set quantity because there are times when we have more capacity than others. There's something I can grown, but you know, there are also factors that can shrink it. And we can be part of that for someone else. We can help someone grow their capacity, or we could do things that shrink it. Um, and whether that's capacity for love, capacity to deal with stress, uh, what have you, um, understanding the impact we have on others. And that gets to a question I wanted to ask you about some of your work and connecting hearts and minds. Um, why is it so important from your perspective, to make that connection? A lot of times we see people pushing those two apart and like, okay, the mental side is going to be one place. The, the emotions are going to be somewhere else, and we're not going to have that interaction. Um, why is connecting those two so important for you?

Speaker B: Well, before I answer that question, I'm going to ask you, why do you think people separate them?

Speaker A: That's a really good question. I've asked myself that my whole life. Um, growing up in North America and with a white, Anglo Saxon, um, Protestant, um, background. Um, yeah, it was much more of an intellectual, um, you know, kind of upbringing. Um, emotions weren't worn out in your sleeves, of course. Yeah, you had them, but they were, you know, extreme. And the example you gave of, like, what are you crying for? Um, you know, resonates with me.

Speaker B: And we're not white Anglo Saxon family, so I don't know. I don't know that.

Speaker A: Yeah. But, you know, I think there's that. That, uh, ethos of, you know, um, divorce yourself from that and focus on these things. That, uh, there's some reason to. That there's weakness there, perhaps. I think, you know, I look at Brene Brown's, uh, work so much in vulnerability, and, you know, a lot of what she talks about is the exact opposite of how I was brought up. Um, you know, that one didn't open your emotions out, that you didn't, you know, share your vulnerabilities. That that was, you know, tantamount to, um, being weak or certainly not as strong as you could be. Um, and so, you know, there's some of that. And so, yeah, this is my cultural lens, um, that I'm sharing this with. I know there are people who are much more passionate. I've got a good friend from Argentina myself, and she is incredibly passionate. Um, and, you know, emotions are right out front there. Um, so, yes, that's, I guess, where I'm coming from with that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So we all, I think, exist in a spectrum. Right. That the idea of having completely separate emotions and thoughts are not necessary. That could be one way to look at it. We have been trained or programmed, conditioned to pride ourselves one over the other. And depending on the culture in which you're born into, um, and how socially acceptable one over the other is, that's kind of how we show up, right? So if we grow up in a culture where expressing emotions is highly prized and is accepted and it's something that you see your neighbors and your parents and your relatives and people on the bus do, then yeah, then okay, that's okay at least. So the spectrum, it's a little bit narrower perhaps in that sense. And then we have cultures where no, we prize and really, uh, take a lot of pride in being very logical and rational and clear headed. And when we surround ourselves with people like that and that's what's acknowledged, that's appreciated and that's what's praised, then we end up presenting that way. What I'm finding now, as I live my life and have learned so many things about myself, and again, going back to having such a diverse community of people to reflect back to me because had I not had an experience in an intimate relationship, right. With my ex husband, to see that contrast, I don't know if I would have seen it as, uh, clearly. Right. So sometimes seeing people who are completely different allows us to see parts of ourselves that we may have taken for granted or because the water in which we swim looks so much the same that we would never notice the contrast. Um, but I think so. So that's number one is having noticed the differences. I also saw how I am not as aligned as I could be. And I think connecting hearts and mind is, is not about choosing one over the other. One is better and one is worse or one is stronger, one is weaker. No, it's actually how do I find alignment? And that's been kind of my life purpose, if you will, is finding. Okay, uh, yeah. I've developed strong logical, rational instinct in many ways because of the education that I've had and some of my conditioning and the relationships and the travel that I've done and the intuition that comes into it. Yeah, I've expressed and developed the heart side of it too. And now how do I get them to fit together? Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's ugly, sometimes it's beautiful, sometimes it's hard, sometimes it's easy. But I can usually tell. Uh, I meditate and that part of me can usually tell when, okay, I'm not really lining up the best way that I could line up right now. And then I just start getting curious about myself, like why not what's out of line and how Come and what can I do about it? Does that answer your question? That was a very convoluted well of thoughts. Yeah. Yeah. Well.

Speaker A: And, um. And I like that talk about alignment. Right. Because I think that's. That's the thing. There's a lot of possible, uh, good answers, right. On, on the spectrums between, you know, heart, uh, and mind.

Speaker B: Have both. Like our anatomy comes with both. They're pre. The factory installed. Right. Why would we, like, deactivate one over the other? Silliness.

Speaker A: Yes. And the alignment, right. That works for us, works in the context that we find ourselves in. Um, how that changes, how that evolves, that it's not fixed, uh, I think is part of the exploration that we are all doing now. And one of the things that the. The pandemic, I think has shaken up is some of the status quo, some of the things we thought were fixed. Um, it's forced many of us to look at things a bit differently, to make different judgments, uh, about what's out there. And so now the daunting thing is that we now have choices.

Speaker B: The daunting thing is we have.

Speaker A: Right. I mean, it's easy when it's all kind of set. Uh, but, gosh, now, well, yeah, if I have the ability to work from home, you know, do I want to, or how. How much time do I want to be at home, do I want to be in an office, and if so, for what, for how long, where, uh, as opposed to the only place I can work is to go to someplace. Yeah.

Speaker B: And some people have that choice and others do not. Right. So when we think about people who work in healthcare or people who work in the hospitality industry or manufacturing, I guarantee you nobody is making my to go box in their home kitchen. Right? No one is getting ready to give anesthesia to someone going into surgery from their, from their living room. Right. So. So, yeah, so even then, I think to start to notice how different. Different people and different paths give people different types of options.

Speaker A: And along with those options, you know, we, I think, are now reassessing the relationship with. With work and in our daily lives. Right. And family needs and, you know, how those come into play. Um, and yeah, for a lot of folks, yeah, they do need to go to a particular place. You know, I've got a lot of manufacturing clients. Um, but you know, what then is the balance, right? Um, and even if it's just how we're thinking about it a bit differently, that balance is ever so critical. Um, and the needs that, you know, um, of family, of Children of parents, um, you know, all of that comes into play. And I think there's this opportunity right now before us to reassess all of this is wonderful, but also daunting. And so what we've got to find first, I think is that alignment you were talking about. And know ourselves, um, know what we, what we want, what we don't want, and then be able to make those choices into our life, um, and to build that alignment from the center outwards.

Speaker B: Mhm. Yeah. My favorite quote is from Howard Thurman, he's a theologian who said, don't ask what the world needs, ask what makes you come alive. And go do it. Because what the world needs are more people who have come alive. That particular quote spoke to me many years ago. And I think a big piece of it is, it's so hard. Even with the circumstances that are around us changing so rapidly and much of it out of our control. The one thing that we can control and we can really become masters of is what makes us come alive. Like start to notice what inspires you, what makes you curious, what makes you interested, what makes you feel good, what makes you feel powerful, what makes you feel confident and do more of that. But not the false confident, not the, um, powerful because of this particular role or status, but the kind that helps you feel grounded and centered and secure. Not the one that's dependent on how other people react or what people do or don't do. Like you were saying, the output versus the outcome. And um, I think once I started paying attention to that, even in my business as an entrepreneur, I'm just kind of like, does M that feel good to me? Am I feeling like a leaning forward in this particular opportunity? And if so, okay, then maybe I'll give more thought to it or have more conversation around it. If I'm kind of leaning back or just kind of, then that's a good indication too that perhaps this opportunity is not for me, maybe it's for someone else. And having the discipline to know what makes me come alive has been huge in helping me align my heart and mind.

Speaker A: And so I wanted to go back and ask you about your work. Um, and you've described yourself as sort of a reluctant DEI person. Um, uh, what led you into this as a line of work?

Speaker B: Well, it's not only the dei, you know, a leadership coach, and leadership comprised of so many different characteristics and aspects of humanity. What I was doing for so long, and I still am obviously is helping leaders identify what's important to them, what makes them come Alive, supporting them, and building strong relationships with the people that they care about. Right. Their stakeholders. And not only in the professional setting, but also in the personal setting. Because, again, filling up our tank come from so many different sources. It's important to have, to have a, uh, nice flow from all. Well, a couple of years ago, two, three years ago, and I may have shared this with you. So when George Floyd's murder really kind of sparked some. It was an awakening for a lot of people of things that were still quite inequitable in this country. And although it wasn't unique, there's been so many other very violent, very visible, very, um. There's a media frenzy around this particular event that shook some people. And I remember getting a couple calls from human resource professionals who asked me to come in and do some sort of diversity, equity and inclusion training, which is what DEI stands for, for people who are not familiar. And I just really realized that the training. Okay, yeah, training is helpful, but I was really curious about, well, what is it about the training that is what's driving this training? I would ask questions. What are you noticing in your workplace that you feel this is the best way to address it? The conversations that I got into often has some element of our workforce. Our staff is very upset, and they've been really feeling traumatized over everything that's happening, not only with the murder, but also the ensuing protest and some of the things that were happening in the media around this. And, um, when I would ask questions about, well, what, what, you know, what. What did you do first? Oh, we built. We put together a committee, and the committee put together resources and books and videos and all sorts of articles. I was like, okay, well, that's. That's helpful. How are your people doing now after all those things have been put together? What's happened? Well, not really sure. Well, why? How do you know that those things are working or they're having the desired impact? And, uh, in those conversations, there had been nothing more than just action, action, action, and very little conversation. And when I started thinking about this diversity, equity and inclusion work, in my own experience, the only way that I've been able to connect with as many people as I've had and be able to feel that living with 400 host families was successful was because I had an actual connection, some stronger than others. But having a conversation gives access to understanding why people think the way they think and how they're doing. And these organizations, uh, didn't seem to have taken it that far. And so I was reluctant about it because I saw that the trend, um, seemed to be coming at it from a. Let's, uh, fill our minds with knowledge about all things diversity, equity, inclusion. And the alignment was off. Minds, minds, minds. And I'm like, what about the heart, though? This seems to be missing. And heart is all about asking questions and connecting. And how are you doing, Ken? How are you feeling today? Are you having family or friends or members that are somehow impacted by this? How are you helping them? What support do you need? Like, basic stuff. Basic stuff. And I realized that, okay, if I have this, like, basic stuff attitude, and it was actually almost a judgment on these organizations, then I probably had to put my, you know, put some stake in it, put some skin in the game, and actually go out and share this basic stuff in a way that was empowering to others, um, and to me. And so that's kind of how I got into it. And it did help tons. It helped me so much to have people in my life who were mentors, who shared. You know what, Valerie, your perspective matters. Your perspective is helpful. Yes. Having more heart and meaning in these conversations makes a difference. Go for it. Find a way. And my podcast, Not Quite Strangers, was born out of that. That was like the initial, okay, I'll take a step, stab at it, bring some strangers together, have meaningful conversations. That's cool. I can do that. That started to really give me a lot of insight and inspiration. And then from there, taking it went to the heroic public speaking and actually like, okay, I need to take this and make it a craft. How do I take all this information and experiences and put it together in such a way that I have message to deliver? And that's how all of that came together.

Speaker A: And, you know, the reluctance, I think, of some to get into this topic, you know, is that it's scary. Um, and I think some of that fear that goes along with that is why there's that push towards the intellectual.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And to make it more about that. Well, to, uh, make it a training, to make it a thing. Right. Um, as opposed to what you were talking about going in with the heart. Right. And having conversations. When you start having conversations and having them from the heart, you're going to start dealing with feelings. And, you know, feelings can be. Can be scary for some. You know, there can be a lot of. A lot of energy there and to almost, you know, kind of depersonalize it a bit, to, uh, you know, make. Intellectualize it a bit. Um, dry it out. Right. Makes it. Makes it a little safer. Right. If we're just Talking about this textbook kind of approach to it. And the more effective, um, dei, um, sessions, I don't want to call them trainings, I don't call them workshops. Sessions, uh, have been when we have really had conversations, um, and shared experience and shared um, you know, questions and concerns and blind spots and you know, really gotten into it. And the uh, more vulnerable that we were in those, uh, the more fruitful I found them. Um, but, but I think that's that, you know, m. Wow. It's a bunch of unknown there. You know, we start talking about feelings. Ah, ah, you know, this is dangerous. Right. Let's, let's try and protect ourselves from things getting out of control here. Um, and so, yeah, I've seen that too. What you're talking about, the need to go there. And so, yeah, that's back to what you were talking about earlier. Just the basic nature of connection, um, to suspend judgment and be curious, as you were saying earlier. And I think that's a great way to dive into diversity, equity, inclusion conversations is to put yourself in that mindset of no judgment and openly curious, uh, and then start to do the work, work in there, um, to find where the alignment is, find where the uh, you know, the intersections with folks are, um, and then be able to move forward from that. Um, and it's not something that you know, can be done, you know, like, oh, we did it. We work through the curriculum. Done now check, move on to something else. Right. This is a never ending, um, you know, uh, way of looking at how we interact. Right. Um, and I don't think there's. There's ever a done point.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's. Well, when it comes to humanity, I don't think there's ever a done point. You're right.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you know, I want to go back to what you were saying earlier about the feelings. Yeah. If we've been conditioned not to deal with feelings or not to name them, that does become incredibly challenging in these types of conversations. When you said they have a lot of, they may potentially have a lot of energy. And the feelings that are the highest in the energetic, highest meaning not because they're strong, but highest and because they bring the most level of fulfillment. Are feelings like enlightenment, feelings like joy, peace. Those are high energy feelings. Feelings that create, uh, uh, they just fill us with dopamine. We feel good internally and externally when we have feelings like that. The feelings that I would assert when we talk about hard things, when we talk about things that are uncomfortable, the feelings that generally might come up are anger, Shame, guilt, especially around diversity, equity, inclusion conversations. And those are actually the lowest energy feelings that could really drive people into despair and depression. And some of the most heinous crimes could be committed from that particular emotional space. What I think is often missing, I can talk about diversity, equity and inclusion from the perspective of reaching out to another person and having a meaningful conversation. But we have to deal with ourselves, too, because we're bringing whatever we have, whatever energy we're bringing is going to show up in the conversation. And so if our higher. If our higher energy is around peace and joy and all these much more, um, transcendent experiences, that's going to show up in the questions we ask. It's going to show up in the energy in which we receive the answers that we get. But if we're in a state of anger and shame and guilt or. Right, all of that, that brings a different energy to those conversations and we just listen differently. So all that to say, I think we need to just pay closer attention to ourselves. And this is kind of a healing from the inside out. Um, my experience being black is very different because I'm an immigrant and very different from. Who could be very different from my siblings at this point. You know, when we immigrated to the states, I spoke Spanish I'd gone to. At least I think it was when we moved. I was in third grade. My younger siblings are twins. They were only four years old. They weren't even in school yet. All of their education has been in the US With a very American perspective. Um, whereas my older brother and I had a little bit different. We had a little extra chip or different chip in our mindset when it comes to that. For example, um, also the experience of African Americans compared to those of African descent immigrating from other countries is very different. We didn't have parents and grandparents and great grandparents or uncles and aunts and cousins talking about segregation, talking about how they had to live and work in conditions that were so dehumanizing. On a regular, the most basic level, those were not conversations that we had at the dinner table. So my family also, we were conditioned to look and think about things in a different way. Now, having gone to high school and college in the state of Alabama, I came to see and learn some things about the experience of being African American in that particular state. And then also because so many of my friends were from different countries and cultures, even in those communities that I also saw and heard and experienced myself. What? Oh, okay. So this is what that means. But the trauma that is, I can Only imagine. Right. I can only imagine through what I've read and conversations that I've had that the trauma that is handed down from generation to generation, that is unhealed, unaddressed, not discussed. You were talking about if families like ours, who tend to just like, just, you know, buckle down and just get to work and don't think about it, don't feel too much, don't cry if you've been traumatized generation after generation, where does that all go? Where does that all go? How does that come out? And how we raise our children? How does that come out? And how we address our friends or how we address strangers. Right. I think that's a piece that's sometimes missing too. I'm not one to do the trauma work. That's not my expertise. There are other resources out there that are great for that. But, um. There's a. There's a movie actually, if you're interested in this. There's a movie called the Wisdom of Trauma. Have you heard of this?

Speaker A: No. Tell me more.

Speaker B: Yes, well, it's a movie and it's. It's uh, directed or produced by this gentleman. He's Dr. Gabor mate. I believe he's Hungarian, of Hungarian descent. And his focus in there is actually around trauma that generates addictive behavior. Most of his specialty was around healing, addiction. But the information he shares about trauma could be applied to anything. Could be applied to sexual abuse, it could be applied to racism, it could be applied to, um, all sorts of things. Um, I highly recommend that. It taught me to look at things from a different perspective. And. And I think that's. Those of us who are working on getting more alignment with our heart and mind also need to heal something. We need to heal the heart, which also generates some thoughts about ourselves and about others and hopefully healing that will help us heal others.

Speaker A: Yes. And the, uh. I think there's a book called Root Shock, I think it is, that talks, uh, about the. The generational impact of uh, trauma. And uh, you know, we. We know that it actually impacts us, you know, at the genetic level. Um, you know, that we have some expressive genes that um, will. Will show up, you know, what. What the environmental surroundings, uh, are. Whether that's, you know, um, you know, trauma, abuse, uh, environmental, you know, challenges, polluted area. I mean, you know, those things start to carry through. Right. And so we. We carry all of that, uh, that history with us and then pass it on, obviously. So understanding that being able to. To address it, being um, able to heal it eventually, yeah, is I think, uh, the really, really big work, uh, that we have ahead of us. Huge.

Speaker B: And I don't want to. Again, I'm not an expert in trauma, but I can just tell you we are traumatized by some things that we would be completely surprised by. Silly example. My younger brother had a piece of, um, fishbone stuck in his throat when he was very young. Because of that trauma, he doesn't eat fish to this day. I mean, he must have been, I don't know, definitely younger than 10 years old. And that experience has absolutely no fish. Like, no fish whatsoever. And his kids don't get to eat fish because that's not what they cook at home. Right? So that's just an example of a bone being stuck in someone's throat at a very young age. If we're talking about some egregious behavior, whether that was some sort of abuse, physical, mental, emotional abuse, a community conspiring against a particular group of people because of how they looked, how they, what, how they spoke, where they were from, all of that, and that over generations. Right. Um, not only the perpetrators and the victims and perpetrators both have trauma around it. Right. Um, how do they teach their kids how to live, how to keep them safe? My brother doesn't cook fish at home to keep his kids safe. And I know it doesn't make any sense, and he would hate me for saying this about him on a podcast, but it's the most benign example I can give of the impact that trauma can have on a generation when we don't handle it. And so I would hope that his kids at some point get curious enough to eat certain foods. Because the parent doesn't want to, doesn't necessarily mean that they can't either. But some of the stuff that we talk about has. The work is much deeper. It's much deeper. And we notice that we're out of tune in some way, shape or form in our own body, is our responsibility to find ways to tune it back up.

Speaker A: So let's. Let's, um, kind of come back to the idea of connection, but not losing the threat of this. Right? Because, like, this is now, uh, what we've all been talking about the last couple of minutes here is the background, right? Uh, the surface conditions, so to speak, of what might be going on with someone as we're trying to connect, um, and build that in.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And so being aware of all these different layers, um, being aware that, you know, that they're struggling, um, even. Even the, you know, we might think, oh, that's a. They're really Together, they're probably struggling with something, right? Because we all are all trying to put something together, get greater alignment, you know, um, be able to raise ourselves up a little bit. Right. So with all of that and we're thinking about connection, then, um, what maybe is, uh, the next level to think of this beyond that non judgmental, uh, curiosity point for what other sensitivities do we need to have? For instance, um, what other awarenesses we need to have as we're looking to create connection with someone?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the next level, so the first one being, let's just be curious, right? Heal, heal thyself, so that we can make the space to be curious about others. But the second, the second or third piece, I guess would be just being allowed, allowing ourselves, giving ourselves permission to shift our perspective. We have sometimes in this culture doubled down by thinking that our mindset has not changed. We have been consistent from day one. Like, oh, my goodness, seriously, if I thought the same way that I thought When I was 12 years old or 17 years old or 30 years old, my life would not have been very exciting. I would say, uh, gosh, so much of my travel and the impact it has is because I was open enough to challenge myself, to try to eat new things, to speak in languages that I've never learned before, to engage in conversations with people who I hadn't met. And so shifting our, allowing ourselves to shift our perspective is a way of expanding ourselves that we take sometimes for granted. Can we get a new piece of information or new insight about ourselves or someone else that has us go? Well, maybe what I was thinking was actually incomplete. I had an experience and I, uh, share this in one of my keynotes. I had an experience when I was flying, uh, to. I wasn't flying to Denver, the plane was flying to Denver. I was a passenger on the plane. And I sat next to this woman who, she was in the window. I was in the middle seat. And as I was getting all my things together and settled into the seat, I brushed up against her and she jerked her body away from me as if I scorched her or like injured her in some way. And at first I was just like, oh, my gosh, maybe, maybe she is injured. And I just brushed up against some injury. Um, and then my thoughts got darker, just like insulted, almost like, why would some, like, am, uh, I gross? Like, what is this? What's wrong with her? Is she prejudice? Like, what? You know, I had all these darker thoughts kind of rolling through my mind. And as we took off and the Flights in the air. And at one point she had to go to the restroom. So m. The guy that was sitting on the aisle and I both had to get up to allow her. To allow her out. When she came back, I was again just wondering. I'm like, what's wrong with her? She was kind of curled up against the window. And I noticed she sighed a couple of times, just like, you know, shoulders heaved and everything. And. And then I noticed her wipe her face a couple of times as well. And I thought, is she crying? And so I reached. Just touched her lightly. And I said, hey, are you okay? And she nodded. Oh, yes, yes, I'm sorry, of course. And I, um, wasn't convinced. So I was just like, do you need anything? And this one, she turned towards me and she said, I'm so sorry. Um, no, I'm fine. I don't need anything. Um, I just buried my mother. And I was like, oh. And all of the dark thoughts and judgments that I'd been formulating, trying to explain why she reacted, the way she react, all that stuff all just kind of fell away. And, um, we got into really beautiful conversation about life and death and her family and what it was like to have lost her mother and her siblings. Like, it was all of that. And, um, beautiful, beautiful conversation that for that next hour, hour and a half that we were on the flight engaged. And at the end, we gave each other a hug. And we were just so grateful for having had. For having had that connection. And so I think the moral for the. For me and for others I would share is that allowing myself to. Although I had all these ideas and thoughts, I was trying to explain to myself why someone would behave so irrationally because I'm such an amazing person. Like, why would somebody flinch when I touched all that stuff and be able to suspend it, because, okay, let me just be curious. Let me stay in curiosity, at least. Make an attempt, be observant of what's happening in the situation. Make an attempt to connect and then just allow myself to be moved. Allow myself to be moved by what happened afterwards. I think was huge. I don't know if we give ourselves, um, that relief, that relief, we sometimes double down because this is what we learned. This is how we were conditioned, this is how we were taught. And that keeps us so small. Keeps us so small. And the world is big. And if we, you know, if every mind is a. Is a world and we want to have some piece of it, we want to understand how it interacts and intersects with us. We're Going to have to allow some parts of us to shift in order to make room.

Speaker A: And that overvaluation of consistency that has been built up. And I'm not sure if this is. I know it's certainly present in North American culture. I'm not sure if it's much elsewhere,

Speaker B: but that culture so much.

Speaker A: I always, always had these thoughts, always thought this 30, 40 years and thinking this way, um, and then certainly there's some value, uh, to consistency. But the more we lock in on that, uh, the more that, that prevents curiosity, uh, and prevents that shift. Right. So to also think of curiosity is not simply asking some questions, but creating the opportunity for a shift, creating the opportunity for change within us. Um, maybe is the next level up to be thinking about that, uh, and to allow ourselves to be impacted by the people that we are connecting with. You know, I think again, it goes back to that, that thing we were talking earlier, that separation. Like, I'm curious about you and I'm interested, but, but when I keep some force field between, between the two of us so that you don't, you know, come in and change who I am here. Haven't forgotten what, what's going to get changed. Uh, to have that, that, that openness and that willingness to be impacted by one another, um, it certainly seems a core of getting at how do we need to connect with other people. We have to, um, allow for that interchange, that interplay.

Speaker B: Huge. Well, you know, this author, American author, now passed, his name is Wayne Dyer, used to say, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. Right. Um, or when you hear Mahatma Gandhi say, be the change you want to see in the world. Right. All of that is inherent in us to do the changing so that everything else outside of us changes. Right. Now that I'm wearing progressive glasses, the world looks different, literally. Whereas one point it was a little blurry because my eyesight had changed. I mean, there's so many systems in our body that change automatically. You know, I remember going to, I think it was the Field Museum in Chicago, and they had this exhibit about the human body. And you could stand in front of this mirror and it would read, somehow had a sensor that would read how old your kidney is and how old your liver and how old is your heart. Because all the cells in these different, really integral body, uh, these organs continue to regenerate. And because they regenerate, the age of our body changes internally. How often do we regenerate our brain cells, take in some new information, connect with people who are different is already. The structures are there. The structures are always changing. But I think we have a level of input that we need to take responsibility for. That helps it along.

Speaker A: Yes. And our skin is constantly evolving and changing, literally, our bodies are renewing and changing, um, moment to moment. And, uh, the fallacy that things are stable, um, or don't change, I think gets in the way of us being able to accept change elsewhere, um, because it's all change.

Speaker B: Or maybe because of that we're so fearful of change. Oh, my gosh, my liver is changing as I sit here. I got to keep some things constant,

Speaker A: keep my bones together. No. So Valerie, uh, wanted to, as we pull things together here, um, give me an opportunity. If there's, ah, something that you wanted to share with folks, maybe a challenge you wanted to throw out or a closing thought to give people, um, to get them maybe thinking in a new way or maybe cause a change in them. What might be that thought or idea you'd like to share?

Speaker B: Well, you know, so much of what we talked about today was really challenging ourselves first. And a big part of that is to open our mind, reach out to someone that we hadn't reached out to before. And I'm not saying that it has to be a new person. It could be, could be a parent, could be a sibling. It could be someone that we live with, our spouse, our child, and just get curious, you know, I remember my mom had one of the most meaningful conversations she's ever had with, with her first grandson, who at the time I think was 19 years old and wasn't saying much. He's pretty introverted because rather than judging all the tattoos that he'd acquired, she asked him what they meant and he went on this very explicit, very descriptive conversation around the meaning of each one and what inspired him to get it and all of that. So I would encourage and challenge people to do that, to just reach out to someone and ask a question of something that you've been wondering about. It could be something that you've been putting some judgment around. Oh, this person doesn't like, this person doesn't do this person does too much or whatever. And just asking a question nonjudgmentally, I do, as part of my commitment, uh, in my reluctance to do diversity, equity, inclusion work, to make it fun for myself and others, I mentioned the podcast where I introduced two strangers. But in between the weeks that I'm not publishing a new podcast episode, which, by the way, if anyone wants to subscribe, they can go to not quite strangers.com not quite strangers.com to subscribe. The in between weeks where I do the podcast episode, um, my colleague and I, Felipe Ferreira, who's Brazilian, great, great friend, he puts together these challenges. We do these connection challenges where depending on the conversation that was had on the podcast and we ask people, now, go do this in your own way, in your own world, in your own way. Right? Find someone in your community that maybe thinks this way and go have a conversation or ask yourself this and share it with other people. So these connection challenges could be a really easy way to start looking at life differently. It's a great way to shift your perspective because it, uh, encourages us to get into conversations about things or with people that perhaps we haven't done in that level or that level of depth before. So that's my, that's what I would encourage people to do. Go find a way to grow, expand our container for love. Awesome.

Speaker A: Awesome. And so you mentioned the podcast. Is there another place, uh, that you like to direct folks if they would like to, uh, follow you, learn more, um, bring them to your website? Where would you like people to find you?

Speaker B: The website is probably the easiest because that's kind of a catch all. So. Valeriehope.com, v a l e r I e h o p e.come It's a great way to connect with me. There's social media links in there as well as, uh, some of the content, things that I, that I teach, the topics I speak about, and yeah, a little, little bit about me and my background as well. Awesome.

Speaker A: Valerie, thank you for, uh, coming today, sharing your thoughts, your insights, um, sparking all this. This is an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for being here, uh, as a guest on the Inside at Work podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you for exercising your curiosity. Ken. I appreciated you.

Speaker A: Thanks for listening to this episode of Insight at Work. You can find more information about our guest and show notes@www.insightatworkpodcast.com. if you enjoyed this podcast, please consider subscribing and turning on notifications so you can be alerted when new episodes become available. Again, thank you for listening and I hope you'll join me for the next Insight at Work podcast.