Season 3 Episode 5: Stephanie Graham - on the evolution of the construction industry, its path to recovery, and the landmark projects that have shaped city skylines.

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So welcome to Inside Infrastructure. Today we're joined by Steph Graham, who's Managing Director, Construction at Lendley. Steph, thank you very much for joining us on Inside Infrastructure.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Um, I'm. The easiest way to kick this off is, uh, getting you to tell us who you are and what you do.

Speaker C: Okay. Um, well, look. Yes, thank you. Thank you for having me. I've been really excited about participating. I think I was speaking to you off camera before about some of the great interviews you've done already. So very big shoes to fill today. Um, I've been in the industry about 25 years. Um, I started my career effectively doing architecture at uni. Um, but while I was at uni, I worked for a small house builder and, um, really, really actually fell in love with building during that time. Uh, because it was such a small builder, I did a lot of things, including packaging up the drawings to go to the bricklayer or the roof sheeter. And, um, really got a good understanding of how building actually works. Um, so I really enjoyed that. And my father was a civil engineer and Len Lease had always been, uh, a really important business and organization throughout his life cycle. Um, and he was actually the one that suggested I apply for the lendlease graduate program. Uh, so I did. While I was at uni, I was lucky enough to get a place and have been there ever since.

Speaker B: So was that like a diversion? Of course. Because it wasn't to be an architect.

Speaker C: Yes, I was definitely always wanting to be an architect. Um, I love painting and art and lots of creative things.

Speaker B: Do you regret that you're not an architect?

Speaker C: Quite a bit.

Speaker A: Do you still paint?

Speaker C: Uh, I still paint. You still paint these days with, you know, a busy job and three kids and a bit of a family. But love, um, painting. Love drawing. Have always really loved the creative side of.

Speaker A: So you still have that as an out?

Speaker C: I still have that as an out, yes, yes. Um, but no, absolutely no regrets whatsoever. Loved the degree. Uh, met a lot of amazing people throughout that degree. But, um, it became very apparent, uh, towards the end of that degree that I was less talented, um, in the sort of creating the amazing building type things. And I was much better at the project management side of the piece.

Speaker A: So is that what you loved about it? The relational elements of being something quite complex together?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, part of the other attraction to Lynlease at the time as well, they were doing a project, um, with Renzo Piano, who was an architect that I admired for.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Sorry, the uninformed who?

Speaker C: He's an Italian architect.

Speaker A: Um, he did the AB and Ammo building, so.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, okay.

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker C: beautiful architect. Um, and we'd studied a lot of his work while I was at uni. Phenomenal. And you know, to have like an Australian, I guess, construction and property company that could attract that type of architect to the projects that we do was pretty amazing. And when we were at uni, we actually did a tour of, of um, that project of that building.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I remember the site manager at the time who I ended up getting.

Speaker A: It's a beautiful building.

Speaker C: Yeah. Taking us around and commenting on details of the architect saying that's bloody hard to build and that sort of stuff, which was pretty fun time. Um, but yeah, so again, you know, whilst I did deviate from the path of architecture, I felt very much still connected to it through the opportunities that Lindlease then went on to provide me.

Speaker B: So do you ever dip back into it, like when an architect comes in says,

Speaker C: oh, look, I think no, but I think probably what it did help me with is very early on in my career, I guess, um, earning the trust of the architects that we work with and we still work with, um, they're a very, very, very important part of our industry and uh, they continue to be. And I think it just, it just enabled me to connect with them and you know, work with them in a collaborative way as opposed to sometimes where it can be reasonably.

Speaker B: I, uh, kind of. I've always been a bit intrigued by how that relationship worked so. Particularly for lendlease as a developer and constructor. So you're you, you got the site, you put the deal together, you hire an architect.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: But you're kind of there sandwiched with you as a developer and um, as the people building.

Speaker C: Yeah. And look at that. It depends on the project, it depends on the region. Um, you know, quite often the development business will um, secure the architect and then the architect effectively gets innovated to us. The builder, or often the architect will stay with the developer and continue to work with the developer and then we just deliver on whatever the objectives are. Um, you know, I think it's, it's an interesting dynamic and I think it's evolved over time. I mean 25 years ago, I think architects were um, a lot more the project manager of the project back in the day. Uh, and Len Lease obviously is big on project management and I think that partnership with the architect becomes very important in how the two work together harmoniously to deliver the right outcomes across our jobs.

Speaker B: So why doesn't a business like Glendlease that is doing designs for lots of buildings, it doesn't have its own. It did, it did, it did.

Speaker C: So uh, it grew very big actually at the beginning of the Barangaroo era. Um, so we actually did have in house architecture, structural engineering, services design we

Speaker A: had to for Barangaroo that was actually done in house.

Speaker C: And yeah, Barangaroo was really, really interesting and it's very contextual now and as we move into a boom in work across the business which I'm sure we'll get to later. Um, but at the time um, Barangaroo coming to market there was a huge amount of work and not enough people to do it all. And so I think Lendlease at that point made a decision to bring a lot of that in house ah for a number of reasons to be able to control quality and delivery and effectiveness. Um but it was a really interesting time because we grew up very very big very very quickly in order to support, support that, that supply that was coming to market that we were delivering.

Speaker A: It's such an unusual project isn't it Barangaroo? Yeah. To rehabilitate an area of the city and then master plan it in that way. So then what happened to those services? They are no longer part of the nice. So is that part of that recent restructure that they.

Speaker C: It was probably a restructure that happened some time ago. M. I mean we interestingly uh, this year we mark the celebration of the full completion of Barangaroo in terms of our involvement there. So we finished the last piece of work there but the winding down of that side of our business happened a long time ago. We still have um, really strong in house capability as Lendlease construction with um, a number of things. Uh but it's a much smaller ah, a group of people that don't actually do the actual design work. It's more a ah, um, supervisory type.

Speaker B: I've asked this of a few people in your position but I don't know why has the industry developed that way where you have separate engineering consulting, engineering businesses, contractors who also have engineering capability. Um and why is it so segmented like uh, risk thing or why is it.

Speaker C: I think so it keeps, it keeps, it keeps changing a little bit. I mean the model now seems to be you know say a len lace construction. We would, we would hire a consultant. We, we have um, some technical expertise internally that would kind of oversee the engagement piece and kind of just stay connected across the project in the delivery of that consultancy work. Um, but we feel, you know, that's not our core capability in terms of delivering consultancy type work. Um, where we add the most value is the project management side of it. And that's where it becomes really important, where that sort of knowledge and input into the resolution of stuff, I guess you can say, before it goes to the actual supply chain to deliver, um, that's where the most value is added. We see from what we do in our model.

Speaker B: Now we've done a cardinal podcasting sin here of skipping over the fact that you went from graduate to md and we didn't do the middle bit. So you've got to tell us about what was the journey from graduation.

Speaker C: So, um, graduate day one started on a Norman Foster building, which was also amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's an architect I've heard of.

Speaker C: So you Deutsche Bank Place?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yes. Uh, so that was my first project and like any graduate role in a, in a big tier one company, straight into the deep end. Um, had the best time ever on that project. It was one of the highlights of my careers. You know, again, the opportunity as a graduate to sit in a room when Norman Foster's there and, you know, there's sketching going on on butter paper to show sidecorps. And it was the first side corps that had happened in Sydney and there was.

Speaker B: What's that?

Speaker C: So a, uh, core where all the lifts and usually infrastructure sit in a building. Typically in commercial office, it's always been in the centre.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: And then the works.

Speaker B: No one's on the side. Oh, yeah.

Speaker C: And so what was amazing about this project is there was a real push to put the core to the side of the building because the location of that has full harbour views, spectacular harbour views. And so there was a sense of really trying to push the core to the side at the back so that the full floor plate had use.

Speaker A: Um, I didn't know that about that building, but now that you mention it, that is the lift. Like you've worked in that. Yeah. And I've spent a lot of time in that building and it does have these very novel lifts on the side of the building. Yeah.

Speaker B: And that incredible atrium in the middle as well. That would be three, four stories, that atrium.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you can imagine as a graduate coming into a project like that, hugely complex, you know, even if you were just on the atrium and structure package and the lifts package, you know, um, I can remember the client asking us to slow the lifts down because people were getting.

Speaker B: Is that true? I've heard working in there. It's like the um, full tail, like. Oh, yeah, that's a. It's true. Okay, good. I'm gonna. And that can now spout it as fact.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, um, this was at a time before Destination Control was coming in for beliefs. And you know, we were having conversations about whether we integrate that tech at the time and we were just a bit behind and you know, so I kind of look back on all of those things and think, how amazing is it to be a part of. Yeah. And so that, that job for me just really cemented my love of lendlease, my love of the industry and the stuff that happens when industry come together and, you know, really make the magic, um, happened.

Speaker B: Did you ever do a stint overseas or elsewhere in the country?

Speaker C: I've never worked overseas. It is a regret of mine. Um, I do wish I'd taken advantage at the time when we were a global organisation to move overseas. You know, I think for me my personal career journey has been challenging to do that. I do have three children. Um, there was never really a good time to make that move. But I know a number of colleagues of mine have worked in Asia or the US or the UK and have. Have absolutely loved it. So not a part of my journey. Um, can't say that I regret because I'm still.

Speaker B: Yeah, the flip side is you get to drive around Sydney with your kids and say, I did that one. That one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And look, you know, obviously have worked nationally over many years and you know, been a part of projects nationally. Um, have had lots of opportunities to travel overseas.

Speaker A: I was going to say you happy traveler instead.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely traveled a lot overseas and been a part of things, uh, that the organization has done overseas, but haven't had never worked overseas, which is one of those things. And look, I probably will encourage my kids to do that on Sick of My Own. I'll live through them.

Speaker B: So that would like. You'd characterize that as a reflection of your sort of, uh, disappointment or slight regret at not having slight.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's a funny thing to say. Do I like. Do I. Is it a real regret? Because I wouldn't change a thing. Um, in terms of where I sit today, the role that I'm in. You've loved what you've done. Yeah, like I do not have one single regret. I think it's. And who knows, like, if had I done a stint overseas, would I. Would I be where I am? Who, Who. Who really knows? But I think it's such a great thing to do if. If you get the opportunity to do it. So I, you know, the advice I give to any of the younger cohort coming through, if you get a chance to work somewhere else, whether it's interstate or internationally, you should jump at it is mine.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's pretty sound advice. So, um, other parts of the Sydney skyline you've altered.

Speaker C: Uh, yes. So I obviously worked on Barangaroo and that was again really incredible experience. To your point.

Speaker B: I don't want to interrupt you, but I hold it up as the best example of a Docklands redevelopment I've ever.

Speaker C: It.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It is like if you compare it to Melbourne Docklands or London Docklands, the two I'm probably most familiar with, those places are sort of, you know, big boulevard, wind tunnel, not activated. And then you go to Barangaroo and it's street level activation, walking. It's like it's transform. Very, very different.

Speaker C: Yeah, my.

Speaker B: Actually my first job in Australia 17 years ago was in the office in. In Kent Street. Overlook it. So I got to see that development.

Speaker C: The Aon Building or Synth similar.

Speaker B: Yeah, the one. It's the. The Marathon Towers.

Speaker C: That's where our start office was for a long time.

Speaker B: Right. Well, when I, When I first got there, there was the um, like the marquee cruise. Yeah, like a 10 cruise temporary cruise terminal before they went to Walsh Bay. And then I got to see the early stages of the um, the development.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So to walk around now and say, jeez, this used to be it's.

Speaker C: And it's really incredible.

Speaker A: Well, and even some of the things you can't see are, uh, amazing about the place. Like, you know, apparently it's got those bee colonies and it's got a whole bunch of like circular design built into a base.

Speaker C: The base in itself is most phenomenal piece of infrastructure.

Speaker B: So that would have been tricky given the. That would have been fairly toxic under some parts of it.

Speaker C: Contaminated. Um, and. And look known to be contaminated. And there was a huge piece of work around that and it was kind of.

Speaker B: It was a rubbish dump. That's how they built the.

Speaker C: Yeah, a shipyard. And you know, had it. Had it had lots of lives. Uh, um. So yes, very, very contaminated. But, um, look, I think probably one of the biggest takeaways from that particular part of the Lendlease history. And it's not just a project. I would say that's a historical part of Lendlease's timeline. Um, it didn't matter what your role was on that particular project. You all knew what you were trying to achieve both as an organisation and for the greater good, if you like, or for the greater change to the community. And for Sydney and for New South Wales.

Speaker A: What was your role on that particular?

Speaker C: I had various roles and I think this is where these projects are so interesting and I sort of see Metros in the, in the same way. Um, you know, I started as a, as a project manager looking at um, commercial office design and then I kind of went into a senior project manager role where I managed tenant integration. So there were a lot of tenants that were actually fundamental to the whole project kicking off and Westpac were the biggest part of that. So I was, if you like, the customer manager for westpac and um, the person that was responsible for ensuring that their needs were integrated within the building works. Um, I then did various other roles across that project because it was sort of a 10 year old span in, in my career. So you know, again it's really interesting because you, you sort of think long duration on a, um, on a project, but people were doing something like uh, people had complete career evolutions over that whole, you know, people went from you know, site engineer to CEO kind of. I mean that's an exaggeration.

Speaker A: But were you only on that project for that 10 year period? Oh, were you juggling others on the side?

Speaker C: There were a few other things going on at the time. M. Um, I did a few sort of small businessy type roles at the time. Bank construction, um, where we needed to run some exercises on things. So I sort of kept in, in, in contact with the, with the business itself because there was still a business, a Lend Lease business outside of Barangaroo as well, which is really interesting.

Speaker B: So I might be getting my timeline slightly messed up here, but that would have been a time of um, bit of dislocation for the Lend Lease business because it was extracting itself from civil construction towards the end of that ah, as well. Would that be fair?

Speaker C: So you, you mean the Lend Lease engineering.

Speaker B: Yeah, the kind of, that sort of

Speaker C: was happening at the tail, the T. Yeah, yeah. So that was very much the tail end of Barangaroo. I was really heavily involved at I guess the beginning of the Barangaroo so as being delivered, the commercial office towels were being delivered and you know it's, it was just um, it was just such an incredibly exciting time to be a part of an organization that was doing that. I mean there were so many cool things going on. Like we put our own batching plant in the middle of the precinct because we Just didn't think that the market could supply the concrete needed and the time to deliver three huge office towers and a basement. And just being able to, as a young engineer, project manager, being able, uh, to be a part of those types of decisions and getting those implemented was just so exciting and so interesting.

Speaker A: Does it look like you imagined it would?

Speaker C: Uh, yes. Yeah, it does. And it, and it, and it, um, when you move through all the spaces, it's exactly how the architects described it, which, um, you know, I could.

Speaker B: Would the architect say it's exactly how they described it?

Speaker A: Does any architect ever say that?

Speaker C: Probably. But, you know, I remember these amazing conversations about how people would flow through the precinct. And I remember being really alive to that. Um, because, you know, yes, there were conversations about product, and this needed to be read and this needed to be yellow. But the ones that really stood with me, which goes more to the place making side of what we do as an industry. Um, I remember the conversations about, well, you know, a person coming to the precinct would go here and do this and experience this and, you know, and everything. And every conversation, every detail had the lens of the experience of the person in the precinct, whether it was a visitor, uh, a school kid, an office worker, you know, a cleaner. Uh, and again, it really embedded this sense of what we do ultimately has an end user and an outcome and an impact. So the lens always needs to be with that in mind. And I think that's been a big part of lendlease's remed for such a long time, um, and always will be. And I think a lot of people within our organization really believe in that and really subscribe to that. It's very much about what you're delivering in the outcomes that occur.

Speaker A: Did you anticipate you would spend your career at Lindley's? Like, in a way, you've sort of jumped around the different businesses, haven't you, and now ended up leading the construction business here. Like, what if it was unanticipated? What kept you there? How did you feel when you kind of made it to the MD role?

Speaker C: Yeah, um, look, I never expected to be here as long as I had. Definitely not. I think what's kept me here is the projects, definitely. And then the types of projects we've done, um, they're just, again, they're so interesting. And I just love the outcomes of them. The people, the people, uh, within lendlease, um, they're really amazing. And I think when you look back historically at the training ground that lendlease is, and you Go and look out new industry now and look at some of the heavy hitters in the industry leading different organizations. A lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them will have connections back to lendlease one way or another. Uh, and I think we feel very proud about that. And um, you know, I think it's known as a really great training ground for leaders and for people. Um, and some people leave well and some people don't leave so well and you know, that happens and that's just a part of life. But, um, I will say that the people within the NICE has kept me there as well. The opportunities. I've never felt like I've been stuck in one organisation doing the same thing over and over again. I felt like I've constantly had new opportunities, varied opportunities. Um, and so it's just kept me engaged and interested. The, uh, MD role, I probably never would have sat there as a graduate thinking I'll be, uh, a managing director of a construction business. I just don't think I would have had that in my head at 23 years old. Um, I just was completely, um, so blown away to be given this opportunity. I'm so excited about this opportunity, really humbled by it. Um, but yeah, it's, it is honestly the best job in the whole world. It really is.

Speaker A: Like, how's the first year been?

Speaker C: It's been, it's been great. It's uh.

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker C: I was saying to Adrian offline just before, you know, the first six months were really about, you know, really learning and understanding what's been going on around the grounds. And then these past six months have been fantastic. You know, it's been about setting up and implementing a new strategic plan, uh, and really starting to just go for it and being a part of an industry that's starting to really thrive again from our perspective.

Speaker B: I'm going to come on to the health of the industry in a minute because it needs a really interesting thing to talk about. But I, uh, ah, did just want to talk about Metros and in particular you mentioned a new and exciting project. Those overstation developments and the station boxes and the, the um, Martin Place Integrated Development. Can you just talk about like how different that was unique to or new to Australia and your role in developing us?

Speaker C: Definitely. So, uh, look, I think go back seven or eight years even when the Metro projects were coming to Sydney and this is the sort of the city and southwest portion of was such an interesting time because when you think back from a Lend Lease's perspective, we're not Station builders. Um, we did have the engineering business and that was going through a period of sale to Bede, which I heard on his podcast how that transpired, which was super interesting. Um, but as lendlease construction and I guess a vertical builder, you would never have thought we'd build an in ground station. And it was really the um, discussions early on about, well, building a station is just a building underground. And I think the second that that kind of mentality, um, sunk in, it became a very different conversation about how we would approach it as an organization, but also how I think government started to think about procuring the packages. Um, that, that project I still think has been a game changer, uh, in terms of New South Wales and Sydney. I think we have, um, upskilled a whole generation of people through those projects. Uh, the complexity, uh, is something I don't think we've seen in a long time.

Speaker B: She stand at the bottom of the escalators on the platform level, looking up in that atrium. You don't need to be an engineer to realize how complex and like it is ext.

Speaker C: Like a cathedral underground and, and new to the industry.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: When you, when you think about the capability within New South Wales, for example, um, you know, they've been building metros in Europe for many, many, many years. Sydney hadn't built something like this in a long time. And, and you, and you think about the infrastructure that's gone under the ground in an established city. And it's not just Martin Place, it's all of them. It's quite phenomenal what's been achieved. And now we kind of look back on it and go, oh, that's a great project. But it's been absolutely a game changer.

Speaker B: I'm m having a chat with um, Peter Regan not long after it been opened the first day. Everybody went Metro for the first day and everybody, um, oh, looking round it all and then you went on a week later, everyone just looking at their fights.

Speaker A: Yeah, I still look around,

Speaker C: You know. Again, um, I'll never forget going on the first train ride before the whole thing had been opened. And I was with Peter and I think at the time, Joe Halen and a number of others. And I think there might have been 15 of us on that first train line and we went from Victoria Cross to Martin Place and there'd been all this buzz about it's four minutes, it's four minutes. And it actually was four minutes. And I remember having my phone timer, uh, pushed and I was showing Peter and, and just the excitement in that whole. Yeah Train ride which is your favourite

Speaker B: station of the new kind of marquee ones.

Speaker C: Um. Well I have to say Martin Place.

Speaker B: Okay. Second favourite.

Speaker C: Second favorite is definitely Rhetoric Cross.

Speaker A: Yeah yeah.

Speaker B: I think it's controversial. I obviously Martin Place one's award winning.

Speaker C: That's central.

Speaker B: But I. I think Victoria Cross is a great piece of place making.

Speaker A: Yeah it has changed.

Speaker C: I love all of them. Yeah I think they're all got different. Um so I also love Crow's Nest. Yeah I really love Crow's Nest.

Speaker B: The one I've not been to.

Speaker A: Maybe I like to go there like Central is just.

Speaker C: Central's beautiful.

Speaker A: Has just lifted the place.

Speaker C: Yeah Beautifully. But I think they've each contributed in different ways. Um but Victoria Cross. I agree and this is the power of these types of projects. It's completely revitalized that suburb. It's got more to go 100%.

Speaker B: Uh but you know what just reflecting on this conversation thinking about three Sydneysiders sat around which is their favorite train station like that we would never. That wasn't a thing before but it's yeah so true. It's true that it has lifted the city and I think Melbourne faces that in the near future with the Metro. Yes opening there and the opportunities that variety but it like the legacy of the asset recycling that funded the major investments in infrastructure that then generated growth and an optimism and that all um coming to fruition now uh I think is a. I don't know it's like it makes. Sydney is a grown up city now. It's a global city. It's got a metro.

Speaker A: Yeah yeah but even. Even the legacy you just mentioned that it's upscaled a whole bunch of people. It involved all of these aboriginal businesses in the supply chain like just all of the. These capability kind of developments that are in our own market. Just what that means for future construction. I think it's awesome.

Speaker B: With transport construction coming off. Do you fear a loss of those capabilities to m. Saudi or else I

Speaker A: don't because I think to Saudis on

Speaker B: the right spitter there's. So if you go to the Sydney airport departures lounge on a Sunday night it's the people who did Sydney Metro flying to Saudi Arabia.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well weren't we meant to have benefited from the slowdown in some of European markets because we ended up getting. So we. We sort of borrow and lend maybe. Is that. Is that what happens next or I

Speaker C: think there's a couple of uh. From my perspective the lens I have on all of that is uh Australia has come through a pretty tough time in the industry. Generally it's meeting post Covid and not, not to labor that point because everyone's had so much conversation about COVID and the impact that it's had. But you know, my observations getting around the business, particularly in the early days, the industry was really suffering as a result of the past five years, I would say, like really suffering. Um, and the tail effects of that are still there.

Speaker B: Uh, so it just diagnosed that. So Covid was a part of it, but it can't be entirely that.

Speaker C: It wasn't. But I guess it was the catalyst that then created things like hyperescalation, a huge spike in mental health issues, um, uh, and departure of people from the industries, from the industry for various reasons such as, you know, our younger cohort of talent weren't able to travel and so for ages and then what we saw as a mass exodus of, you know, that, that younger cohort just wanting to go and go overseas for, for six months because they've been sort of trapped in, in their mind. Um, it, it just had, it just had such a bad effect on, on the industry in general. And, and I think we're still recovering.

Speaker B: Uh, like people talk about the health of the construction industry, but I've very rarely got beneath the bonnet on that. What do we mean? Like you say it was in a bad way, it was, it wasn't great. What does that mean?

Speaker C: Uh, well, I think, you know, you can look at the insolvency side of things. You know, so many businesses went under, so many, uh, subcontractors went insolvent. Um, our industry is so incredible, but it's so simplistic in a number of ways in terms of how it actually operates. You know, and a lot of it is cash to mouth in some circumstances, um, probably at the, you know, at the different scale to say a lend lease. Um, and you know, I think the impacts of COVID and the way it uh, played out from ah, government mandating around LGAs and um, how you could operate in the industry and how not to operate, it just, just had an impact on businesses, how they operated, how people felt, um, and how people were managing their, their, their businesses into the future. And I think, would I say that, um, you know, we're out of all of it now. I think we're kind of at the back end of it now and I'm starting to see a complete shift in things and I think it's a lot more hopeful and I think there's a lot of stuff coming to market now. That's great.

Speaker B: Do you think being out of it now is um, just a function of cycles or are we doing things differently? That's uh.

Speaker C: Actually that's a good point. I think probably both. I think there's a cycle aspect to it. So a lot of the more challenged projects are finishing up. Um, so including some projects we've had nationally, uh, that have been impacted by the hyperescalation and everything else that's been talked about to death. Um, we're sort of finishing all of that. Um, but I think the changes now are. And uh, particularly with government for example, they're more open to a conversation around contracting for example, and how um, how contracts could have let us down in circumstances that were outside of everyone's control and how we look at that now to best address risk in the market, who's best holding and managing that risk. Um, but everyone's at the table and that conversation now, which is a really good thing, I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean you've touched on a couple of things that I think are really interesting because there's been so much discussion about the construction industry productivity. It's not always couched in terms of the few years of post Covid recovery that have been there. But um, I suspect where you sit there's a bit of annoyance at the conflation of some of these segments of that like the kind of more fragmented sort of housing construction side versus more dense precincts type developments versus the civils, like in those points where their market's heavily constrained where you know you're losing project managers overseas or um, you know, having trouble getting people through the system. Like what are the dynamics between those different segments? Um, and how do you know, do you find that you're, you know, that any one of those segments is cannibalizing from each other or competing with each other for, for scarce resources.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's. Look, that's a really interesting question and one we debate a lot internally. Uh, from our perspective, again with the benefit of being um, the business that we are. We play in a number of sectors which you'd be aware of. Defence is a huge sector. Uh, health data centres, aviation, housing and metros and infrastructure. What are.

Speaker B: Do you mention hospitals?

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: That you did. Yes.

Speaker C: What I found.

Speaker B: It's a big one.

Speaker A: Just checking various. Any good?

Speaker C: Um, what I've found is really interesting is. And I think this is an opportunity within the industry itself traditionally, and this is a big generalization by the way. Um, traditionally people have stuck to their sectors and you have a Lot of sector expertise within the industry and within organizations. So our health team only work on health projects, et cetera, et cetera. But when you break it down, um, someone who's really good at defense work is actually really fantastic at metro work. And the synergies there are around the assurance piece or the high security piece or the. Which again when you go to its simplest levels, it's about how you manage an assurance piece for a customer, for a product. And once you get your head around that, uh, the skills become very easy to. More transportable. Yes. Yeah. And similarly with health capability, again it's, you know, these clinical health technicians within industry and within our uh, business, they are uh, really, really great in residential space because residential you're so effective when you're very, very succinct in what you're delivering efficiently, quickly to a level of quality, which again is a, is very much a health requirement.

Speaker B: There's a deficiency in moving people between.

Speaker C: I would say it is an opportunity and you know, uh, uh, it's for us internally what we're trying to do is open up those opportunities for people to.

Speaker B: Is there a client resistance?

Speaker C: No, in fact it's the opposite. And when you have a conversation with a, ah, Sydney Metro or a health infrastructure or. They're very interested in that as a proposition. Um, and I remember having a conversation with one particular client about the skills transfer from say health specialists into a metro job. People are very ecstatic and interested.

Speaker B: We see a lot transport to energy.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: The moment, the linear nature of them, I mean notwithstanding there would be particular

Speaker C: skills in the health system and you'll always have that, you'll always have that. And I think you always need specialist skills in that particular discipline. Absolutely. But I think, you know, there is a really great opportunity though to make, break it open a bit more and to really, you know, cross pollinate, I guess, if you like, within those sectors.

Speaker B: Um, so having established then that the construction sector, uh, maybe there's some green shoots of, of health reemerging. Uh, the other thing we hear a lot about is productivity.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, the opportunities around productivity. Um, there's probably some differing views around this table on it. Janice and I have spoken about it a bit about where some of these opportunities are. What, what's your take on it?

Speaker C: General generation. It's generational in my, in my opinion. I think people just want to work differently and live differently and have the two together harmoniously. I think there's that aspect. There's always an IR climate associated with all of that. And you know, things keep evolving, um,

Speaker A: but yet not working smarter. Like we're not generally working much more productive now.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean the other thing about our industry is we're very slow to change. We're very slow to adopt new thinking, new technology, new anything really. It's just always been that way. Um, there's so much to unpack in that whole part of it. But you know the funny thing that you hear a lot about is how we build today is very similar to how we were building 20 years ago. 40 years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And that's um.

Speaker B: I'm going to play devil's advocate. M so ah, if I think about how a construction site looks like I'll maybe take civil construction as the example rather than buildings. Although it would be the same in buildings, it does seem quite different. Even though construction site 20 years ago is vastly different to how it is today. They're much more digitally enabled. I think the projects are bigger but proportionally I m don't think there's more people. There's the tunnel boring machines are faster, the concrete pours more effective that the site and the product are safer.

Speaker C: True.

Speaker B: So I would. My devil's advocate point would be I don't know that we're measuring productivity at sufficiently uh, granular scale. Do we really know that we're diagnosing the specific problem. But also the area, I'd say where this thing there has been reducing productivity is probably in the white collar part.

Speaker C: I would agree with that.

Speaker B: Like that looks. That's grown M Fairly substantially.

Speaker C: There's more people doing less in that. Yes, I, I would agree.

Speaker B: So maybe.

Speaker A: So where's that? Is that in sort of advisors or in project management or all of that? And it's not measure it with the complexity of the projects. It's actually disproportionate too.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean you just. Yes. Said an interesting thing there. Man mark.

Speaker B: I said, I said man mark. I meant person marking because I don't want to be gender. Yeah. Person marking like

Speaker C: that is a really good observation.

Speaker B: I just think where I've seen it happen is you'll sometimes have sort of double marking. You'll have the um, ultimate client will have formed a function that assesses the performance against the contract by the, the delivering entity. And then there will also be a uh, sort of independent.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Observers of that. So you've got this kind of. It creates a system where you need to employ more people to manage the people managing you and it all becomes a bit.

Speaker A: But is that genuinely different to uh, what was There a decade ago. Yes, it is.

Speaker C: Okay. Yes. Uh, I would.

Speaker A: Is that regulatory? Like, is it just driven by regulation, Is it driven by outsourcing or what's it.

Speaker C: It's have just been. It just seems to have evolved over time.

Speaker B: Almost like a calcification of the system.

Speaker A: Yeah. A complete risk aversion or.

Speaker C: Yes, there's probably, there's probably a lot in that. Um, but you're actually, you're right. The evolution of how clients are structuring how they want to manage the outcomes has really led to this layering up of, um, people on projects in the

Speaker A: wrong areas and it's not resulted in any real control benefits or. Because I did think like that Productivity Commission report talked about the debate around whether productivity was capturing sufficiently improvements in quality and it felt it did. So it's quite an interesting question of. Yeah, like if those things are already being captured, then obviously there's more manpower without more person power, without it.

Speaker B: It'd be interesting your view on this stuff. I don't think it's been entirely without benefit. We do probably social license better community engagement better, uh, than we perhaps did in the past. I don't know. Maybe not. But.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, growing up in an organization like Lend Lease, I would say that, um, without being too rah, rah, Lend Lease, that's something that we have been long doing in terms of the services we offer to a customer on approach. It becomes challenging when there are so many layers, um, put across you when you're trying to do your job. Um, both the, uh, white collar and blue collar side of it, um, that, yeah, you can become ineffective in how you're delivering. Um, and it probably also sets up the wrong relationship, uh, from the beginning with how you interact as well. And um, it can also not get the right outcomes on a project.

Speaker B: Yeah. Whereas when you're the developer, the alignment is natural because the.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So we've done a good job there of um, uh, diagnosing the productivity problem. How are you going to solve it?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I was going to ask the same question because to my mind that sounds like something that digitization can give great visibility of and like, might actually have some solution. But yeah, I'm keen to hear your thoughts on like the big shifts, the big things that have happened.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think everyone's in A, in violent agreement that something has to be done to, to resolve what is A plus B is not equaling C. Too much work, not enough people, how's it all going to end? Uh, digitisation is an Interesting one, one that we're really interested in, um, how you apply that in a construction sense. There's unlimitless opportunities there that we see. Um, everyone talks about off site manufacturing and modularization. Again huge opportunities, particularly in the residential space and even to a larger extent I'll be the data center space and even the hospital space, aviation space. So much opportunity there. Um, some of it's going to need industry to come together and really work through some of these things. Um, but in our own right we're very much investing in a lot of that already and have been for some time. Um, and we're really keen to get going with some of it. And even if we test and fail, test and fail and then ultimately become successful, do you develop that in house? We have strategy in house and then we will pull in the right capability from outside of our organization to really make sure that we're setting up for successful outcomes there.

Speaker A: Mhm. I was going to ask about modular construction, like where that's going to go.

Speaker B: Will you go modular?

Speaker A: Modular methods of construction. Like that's quite curious to hear whether uh, Lynn Lisa's finding that it's doing more in that space. M Is that the future? Is it not? Is it going to change productivity outcomes?

Speaker C: Yes, yes. I mean it has to.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: It's um, you know if you look at a housing pipeline, you know you think that lends itself to be. And you know the biggest requirement for housing at the moment is speed to speed to market. I mean the pressures government are seeing, the election promises, the investment spend that's coming rapidly. Um, it has to be about modularisation or even a kit aparts approach or something different. That means you don't have to find 500 tilers to tile 60,000 bathrooms. You know you have to go into a very different space to roll out what is the requirement to meet the need of you know, government and everything else. So and that's just housing.

Speaker A: Are there any exemplar projects though, uh, where you could point out and go well that's got it, that's got it. You know what I mean? Like where are we already seeing it?

Speaker C: We're seeing a lot of great stuff already happening in the tier 2, tier 3 market. I think there's a lot of great innovation coming out of that uh, that side of it.

Speaker B: Uh, should be the volume builders already do.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: For housing.

Speaker C: Yeah. Like you think about a marathon. Right. Um, or even just the big home providers out with the big plots of land. Definitely there's already some models that happen um that enable them speed to market delivery, um, with a lack of reliance on labour at all times. Uh, you know it just, it, it has to change. It has to. That you just, you can see the mats. Yeah, it doesn't add up.

Speaker A: I know. So I don't understand why people keep saying it's still not yet working in terms of cost reduction.

Speaker C: I think it will, I uh, think the, the big thing initially will be that you roll out a bit of this stuff and you'll see program benefits straight off the bat.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And then the cost effectiveness follows after that. Yeah, I would say it does feel

Speaker B: like it's been a false horizon for a long time though. Yeah. It's always five years away.

Speaker C: Yeah, it always away. But I think uh, it's almost like studying for exam the night before in a way everything will drop and then I do feel that everything will just sort of quite happen overnight almost.

Speaker B: And you think housing will be the place it.

Speaker C: I think housing comes in first. Big catalyst for the off site piece. I think data centres will actually drive a lot of that as well. Um, there's a lot of innovation already around how data centres are being thought about mainly because they evolve so quickly in such a short amount of time in terms of the tech that goes into these things. Um, and there's so much of it in the market at the moment. Um, you know you are actually seeing a lot of innovation already being integrated within that hospitals.

Speaker B: I mean there's a huge amount of hospital bill in the current and forward pipeline. Now there must be opportunities in there.

Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. Uh, always opportunities in hospitals. I think the big part about cracking the nut, there is really the um, uh, involvement of the stakeholders and the process that happens there.

Speaker B: Like the clinicians.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: And so they want everything bespoke or like.

Speaker C: Yeah. And there's always a lot of which rightly so, they're the end users of the hospitals and you know that's really important that everything is set up for the success of that particular hospital. But I think the more that can be done to kind of um, simplify that process and um, look for opportunities early on, the better it will be in delivering more um, efficient hospitals. There still seems to be a bit of a um, a good tension between you know, hospital product that needs to come to market and the expectations of the stakeholders using the hospitals.

Speaker B: No, I did, I did, I heard example around things like bathroom pods and it just. The aspiration was there but it just didn't quite work out hard for hospitals

Speaker C: at the M moment. But I mean bathroom pods. We're very much using and loving in a lot of our student housing project.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Okay. And fantastic how that works because these pods arrive, there's no crannies required. They sort of get uh, moved into a project and lifted up via a lift.

Speaker A: And just.

Speaker B: So why not in hospitals? What's different?

Speaker C: They could, they could. And when I say I think um, it just, it's just one of those things where the application is very successful in one sector. It's just about how you're, how you bring it to the customer in a different sector. Uh, try and change the mindset that's potentially been there for, for some time.

Speaker B: And you're seeing material cost benefits in the student housing.

Speaker C: Yep. And time and quality. M. Yeah.

Speaker A: That's how many.

Speaker C: I love bathroom cots. I'm.

Speaker A: I'm really in my mind I'm thinking like plastic kind of. And I'm sure they have come a long way. Do you know what I m mean? But you know the one, the plastic floor, like not, you know. Yeah, but like back on getting the prejudice and I'm sure you are to that.

Speaker C: It's probably a bit harsh in saying we haven't changed a lot in 20 years. You know, there, you know, the bathroom pods are fantastic like that. And that's, that's an amazing thing M. That's occurred over time.

Speaker B: And my observation of it is uh, that so much of the construction sector is effectively um, small company builders doing single dwelling buildings. And if you look at the relative journey of a major infrastructure construction site and how the safety improvements, the quality improvements, the level of digital use and kind of like core productivity stuff about doing stuff faster relative to a single dwelling home building construction site with multiple trades arriving at different times. The inefficiency of that, the sort of latest innovation was a nail gun. I think it's just that the productivity statistics might become skewed against that. And at the same time the cost of housing has gone up because we've put necessary things in like rainwater tanks and solar panels insulation and we're building better houses. I just. Sorry. The point of this diatribe is that I think it causes us to misdiagnose the problem. And um, there are definitely uh, major infrastructure construction, vertical and horizontal productivity challenges, things that need to be solved. But I worry about the. Oh, we're just, we're just worse at building than we were. It's just, it's simply not.

Speaker C: Yeah, sorry.

Speaker B: And not that you were saying.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, no, yeah. We're not, we're not worse at, we're definitely not worse at building uh, look, I think one of our greatest, I say this a lot, one of our greatest opportunities. But our biggest challenges is the, the diversity of generations we have within the industry. So we have 16 year olds right through to sort of 70 year olds. That is our biggest strength as an industry for sure because you just have such an incredible uh, cross section of the community and the generational um, mindset. Uh, but it does become a challenge where you know, you just have such different ideologies within, within one team, even just through generational um, change. So uh, you know, tapping into that I think is, is a key part also in, in solving some of these challenges. But it's the personal side.

Speaker B: AI is going to solve it though. Is it?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean who knows? I uh, think that's, it's already an effective tool in our business. We're seeing a lot of benefits.

Speaker B: So it couched in a joke, it was a serious question which he like so what are you seeing?

Speaker C: AI, do you um, we're seeing it at the moment at a very simplistic level supporting us in doing um, day to day things that would ordinarily be very time consuming for say a site engineer or a project manager. It's an effective tool to support their day to day requirements which kind of frees them up which then you say logically goes to improvement in productivity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So

Speaker C: it's a very interesting um, thing at the moment because you've obviously got the flip side of that around security of you know, your business and your um, infrastructure. Uh, so you've got to balance that with you know, genuine risks to the organization and how it gets rolled out and utilized. But you can see the benefits of it, um, even at its most simplistic application you have to see that the benefits are there. Um, any task that can be done by AI that's ordinarily done by a person doing a role within our organization that doesn't need the smarts and the expertise and the experience of that individual. It's effectively just a, you know, a process thing straight away.

Speaker B: Huge amount of people in your business whose job is essentially to compare this document to that.

Speaker C: That's right.

Speaker B: And to tell difference.

Speaker C: That's right. And, and so utilizing that technology is a, is a, an exciting thing that we're already starting to integrate.

Speaker A: Is it fair to say that you're seeing that as then creating space within roles to kind of concentrate on the more important things or whatever, but more effective stuff? Are there potentially in The. In the future of construction, are there potential changes to the structure of teams and sites? You know what I mean? Like, is it. Will it. Will it change? You know?

Speaker C: M. May it count? I can't. I can't see it impacting us the way it would in other industries at moment, which are definitely at the front of the conversation with the whole AI is going to take module.

Speaker B: Um, as yet, it doesn't pour concrete.

Speaker C: As yet, it doesn't pour concrete. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So, um, but it does drive demand for data centers. So you must be seeing a lot of that.

Speaker C: M. It does.

Speaker B: In forward work program.

Speaker C: Yeah, it does, it does. So plenty going on.

Speaker B: There's an opportunity there. Um, we could keep going all day, but we have come to the end of the time available. We always ask.

Speaker C: It's gone very quickly.

Speaker B: Well, there's still a bit more. We always ask all of our guests what their favorite sort of infrastructure is and why. So what's yours?

Speaker C: Ah, you know, today I have to say Metros. M. It is. I mean, I have a number of career highlights, but I still have to say, um, actually I've got two. Um, I love metros. I really love hospitals though, because, um, what I really love about hospitals is the way, um, customers and our team and everyone else speak about the meaning of the work that they do. It is very much about the service of what's being delivered. And for me, there's a real purpose around it. And, um, if you align yourself to that purpose and you genuinely believe you're doing something in the greater good of the community, I just think that's so powerful. And so I love the hospital side of things because of what it, what it means.

Speaker B: Sort of true of metros as well. Like there's.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Different, different. I mean, hospitals are literally saving lives. Um, but metros, uh, the reason I love the metros so much is because it's. It's just been such a game changer uh, to, to Australia, really. Um, and that program of works personally for me. I even learned so much being a part of that. And you know, we spoke about Peter Re and a number of other really incredible people that have, um, participated in that. And I just think it's, you know, there's the technical side of it and the trains and the, um, you know, the blast and all the really cool stuff that goes into it technically, which I also love. But then it's about the legacy of it.

Speaker B: And so it's metros as a finished product or. Cause some people said they like tunnels, but only when they're being built.

Speaker C: Ah. Uh, no, not only.

Speaker B: But that was.

Speaker C: It was the journey of it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it's the outcome of it. For me. It was the whole lot. It's the whole life cycle of the metro for me. I. You know, I loved the tunnels when they were empty and we were walking up and down, but then getting on that train and going between two stations in four minutes.

Speaker B: Do you prefer the journey or the station?

Speaker C: Um, I think I prefer. I'll say the journey, but the journey in the sense that you. You're on the train, you hop off the train, you work your way through and you.

Speaker B: That's a politician's arm. Both of the things you said.

Speaker C: I want to draw faster my comments about the Barangaroo experience. Right. Which is, you know, it's that. It's that experience as a. As a customer, as a human being, being in a. Being in an environment and how you engage with that. That's probably why I love it so much.

Speaker B: I think that's a great note to finish on. Steph Graham, thank you very much for joining us.

Speaker C: I've had a lot of.