Season 3 Episode 8: Saul Cannon: on his career journey to the waterfront, trade amid geopolitical uncertainty, and what's next for Victoria's key trade gateway.

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to Inside Infrastructure. Thanks for, uh, joining us. Um, so currently CEO of Port of Melbourne and we'll come back to that later. But, um, the first thing I want to talk about is your surname. Great surname. So what's the background there?

Speaker C: Um, Canon. It is a good. I do like my surname. Um, it's a lot easier than my first name, Saul. Um, but my parents were both from New Zealand and that was just my father's family name.

Speaker B: So you're a Kiwi?

Speaker C: I was born in Australia and very much grew up here and see myself as 100% Australian. But both of my parents are from New Zealand. Do you have the passport? I do have an expired New Zealand passport that I got when I was in my early 20s, which meant that it was a bit more beneficial back then for a, uh, travel to a couple of countries compared to an Australian one.

Speaker B: It also means you can't stand for Federal Parliament because you're a dual citizen. You'd have to renege your. So that your political career is over before it started.

Speaker C: Well, luckily I have no political aspirations.

Speaker B: So you're born and raised in Melbourne.

Speaker C: So you're a full bird. Born in Melbourne. Really passionate about Melbourne and Victoria. Um, love traveling and experiencing different places and cultures and countries, but really love coming back to Melbourne. So I'm very much, um, a big supporter of Victoria and Melbourne and why my current role is just so well aligned with, uh, what I'm passionate about and so never lived abroad, had a couple of stints in different places, so was very lucky. Um, early on I had nine years at Telstra and through the Telstra experience I ended up having three years in New Zealand, which was totally coincidental. Uh, it had nothing to do with the fact that all of my relatives were living in New Zealand at the time. But that was, that was a fantastic experience. And back then, that was before kids, but it was with my now wife, uh, who moved over with me at the time and we had three years living in Auckland but working, uh, right across New Zealand.

Speaker B: So, uh, just in the timeline of Telstra, when this was when it was

Speaker C: a publicly owned utility or post, this was before T3. So T3 was the third tranche of the uh, Commonwealth sell down, which was the one that dropped the Commonwealth interest below 50%. So our New Zealand experience was uh, 2001 to 2004. And in fact I came back from New Zealand to um, sort of lead, ah, a lot of the work on that T3 privatisation work back here in Melbourne. Yeah, also during the Telstra Journey had six months living in Atlanta. Well, living six months but working and uh, being based over in Atlanta, which was um, a really fantastic, unique experience back then as well.

Speaker B: What was the Telstra interest in the us?

Speaker C: I initially went over. Telstra had a directories business over there and it was right when um, uh, you know through that sort of um, dot com period. And um, I went over um, in fact to sell um, part of the business at the time, um, uh, that Telstra had there. Um, what's a directory's business? Oh like the Yellow Pages business here. Um and so it had been uh, it had its origins back to the Bell south businesses in uh, the U.S.

Speaker B: um, so was that a sale with. Clearly that business model was going to fall apart with the onset of the Internet or was it.

Speaker C: Yes, it was driven by Telstra looking to go down um, a different sort of e commerce path uh with its US business. But in fact, in fact um, I went back some period later to help um, close down part of the business as well, but had an amazing experience there. So New Zealand and Atlanta. When I was young I thought my overseas experience would include uh, New York, London or Hong Kong. But uh, it was a far cry from that. But I really look back quite fondly on those two.

Speaker A: I noticed you had sort of travelled through your career from logistics to telco and even there was this stint in medical research which was there a sliding doors moment that brought you back to ports and logistics as a sector.

Speaker C: Oh, um, Janice, none of it was really planned or um, sort of a considered pathway through and different opportunities came up at different times. The WEHI role was um, quite different. That was really me stepping outside of the corporate environment I'd been working on for a while. So the quick sort of background there was I'd been at a company called Ashiano for about nine years, um, literally from week one after Ashiano demerged from Toll Holdings. And back then uh, Ashiano was an ASX 50 company separately listed after it demerged from Toll and it had the Patrick Ports and Pacific National Rail freight businesses. So I was on the exec team from, from day one and um, in fact the only sort of execration person still there nine years later when it was taken over, which was a big public company, uh, takeover transaction that I ended up um, luckily having the opportunity to run towards the end of that uh, Asiano journey. And so the Wehai one, Walter and Eliza Hall Institute, which is in fact the oldest medical research institute in Australia, that one really did come quite out of the blue, I do remember I was flying back to Melbourne after the completion party of the Ashiano transaction. It was the first time in decades at that point that I was unemployed and actually wondering what is my future going to hold. And literally the day I was going back on a Saturday morning to Melbourne, um, received an email from, uh, the then CFO at WEHI saying they had this really important critical transaction for the institute. My name had been recommended by someone, by one of their board members who in fact had been the chair at Asiano. Uh, would I be willing to help? And so I agreed to go in and have a coffee with him. And this was so different from the corporate world I'd been. Um, and I remember going in and they have this tea room up the top of the institute. All of the labs are there and you've got medical, uh, researchers and uh, world class people who had chosen that pathway because they want to change the world and find a cure for cancer and do those things. Um, on the way there I'd thought that I was not going to do it, that it wasn't for me. And I'd in fact promised my wife and family that I was going to take a break. Sort of two years prior with the last role I had at Asiana was commuting weekly to Sydney. And it was taking a little bit of a toll on things. So I promised I was going to take a break. But then when I sat there in this tea room and had this experience, um, I mean the first thing was I sat there looking at people in the tea break coming out of the laboratories and there was just this buzz and people were smiling and happy and I thought, wow, this is a really um, good, ah, feeling workplace. And I went home and my wife said to me, it's a tea. About time you did something good for society, so why don't you do it? She knew all about the uh, Walter and Eliza Hall Institute. So next thing you know, I agreed to uh, a part time role at wehi and essentially it was running a transaction. So they'd been involved, um, a decade or so earlier in the discovery of an anti cancer drug that was having big success, was being sold and marketed, uh, globally by two of the big pharmaceutical companies. WEHI had this future royalty stream and they were looking at a transaction to partially monetize that royalty stream. So I really just ran an M and a transaction. I had no medical background, no life sciences background, um, but kind of did what I sort of knew how to do at that time and ran a transaction with North American bidders. And for Wehi it really was a one in 100 year project. It ended up raising us $325 million, um, which you know, contributed and went into their endowment fund. It built an early learning centre uh, at the institute there in Parkville. And it really was a um, ah, uh, a significant transaction that I felt was doing good. And so it was right at that point where I was actually thinking maybe I'm not going to go back and be a full time corporate executive and I'll pick and choose and do some things that I really feel are going to make an impact and be positive. And then um, well the phone rang again and it was my old CEO boss from Asiano who'd been asked to take on the chair role at Toll. And, and he just said I think we need you at Toll. Would you consider sort of coming in? And I went in and met the person who was uh, the managing director. Um, and after a couple of hours discussion with him I agreed um, to start at Toll.

Speaker B: Before we get onto Toll I want to take a bit of a step back cause we've skipped over the part where you were a lawyer.

Speaker C: Yes, well I was in fact a lawyer for a long time so. But not in a law firm for very long. I was lucky in Melbourne to get my articles at um, what was Mellison Stephen Jakes then, now Kingwood Mallesons. Um, and um, fantastic firm and a really good structured training program. Um, quite coincidentally when I look back, um, one of my rotations was in maritime and in fact what happened at Malleson's during that rotation, One of the partners and senior associates that I'd been working with said they were looking for someone in the Sydney office, would I consider moving to Sydney. I hadn't really experienced Sydney too much before that and I flew up for a week and I can still remember walking into the Malleson's reception and looking out over uh, Sydney Harbour from the Governor Philip Tower thinking oh my gosh, this is unbelievable. And so literally sort of the day after I finished that articles year I moved to Sydney and I ended up being in a banking and finance team doing some ship finance and things, part of a national maritime group. Um, realised though that that was not what I was enjoying and what I, um, um, I wanted a broader corporate experience. And I was then asked whether I would go on second to um, Telstra. So I went in house to Telstra as a lawyer. As a lawyer and actually never went back. So the first six months as a seconde At Telstra. And then I was asked by uh, the boss at Telstra to stay on. And that was the start of my, my nine years at, Telstra. So do what was. And I was a lawyer. I was a lawyer right through that Telstra experience.

Speaker B: There's a blurring between a lawyer and kind of commercial world. Uh, to what extent were you being a lawyer versus more in the kind of commercial.

Speaker A: That's the common thread.

Speaker C: Oh, I think, uh, I think looking back I was fortunate to have the opportunity to get involved in a lot of transactional work. And I hadn't been, I hadn't been a corporate lawyer, I hadn't been an M and a lawyer at Mallison's. I'd been doing quite different things. And yet it was the exposure I got in house at Telstra. As an example, um, back then when Telstra was making its first foray into a few um, listed company investments into companies back then, Computershare, Solution 6 and Sausage Software. I happened to be in sort of the legal team. That meant that I was the lawyer doing all of that work. So I just started doing M really by chance, um, transactional work which I

Speaker B: enjoyed timing then like you were there during the.

Speaker C: Yeah, I look back and I feel that I was very lucky just being in the right place at the right time to get some amazing experiences. And I never really loved the law. I think I was an okay lawyer but I always enjoyed the commercial business side more. And so it was really though at Asiano where the blur started more, if I can call it that. So I was for the first seven years out of the nine years at Asiano still the General Council. But during those earlier years I did from time to time get given quite a lot of non legal um, responsibility. So at times I had the M and A team, I had the regulatory teams, I had internal audit and Risk. I had even Group hr, ah for a period, um, you know, a number of things that I was not properly qualified for. But it was just that uh, ability to develop and learn and um, get some amazing opportunities along the way. And then it was really just the last two years at Ashiano where I was asked to formally step out and whether I would take on what was called back then, I think the Group Director, the Director of Strategy and Corporate Development. So the equivalent sort of Chief Strategy Officer role that I then ended up moving into at Toll.

Speaker B: Yeah, and um, which brings us back to Toll. So the job there was you were.

Speaker C: I went in as Chief Strategy and Transformation Officer and Toll had sort of a Number of um, challenges to work through. It was a, it was a pretty, it was a challenging period, but really learned a lot and it's a pretty amazing organization. Point. Before the sale of one of its three major divisions, Toll was operating in 50 countries with over 40,000 employees. A very significant global logistics, uh, business with three main divisions. And so that was an incredible uh, experience. And there's some really fantastic people at Toll. And I was lucky to have sort of broad exposure through what we were doing. And then it was the last two and a half years at Toll. So halfway through my time there that I got asked to take on the CFO role, the group CFO role. Um, if I'm being very open and honest, I said no a number of times because I didn't think I was qualified. But I was convinced that uh, they wanted someone to help drive some change. So I ended up stepping into that. Um, my learning from that is that I will never, ever, I promise be a CFO again. Um, but, but.

Speaker A: So your hunch was confirmed?

Speaker C: Well, I didn't enjoy it. It was a really tough time. And when I, you know, there'd been a, an ERP implementation that uh, had gone so well. There was two cyber attacks we worked through, there was the global pandemic and all of the impacts on the business through that. So it was a really um, demanding, quite challenging time to work through. But looking back, if I hadn't done that, then maybe I wouldn't have been picked as the right person to step into my current role at Port of Melbourne. So all of these things have just helped.

Speaker B: There's a bit of a dichotomy though between that, uh, a challenging time as a CFO in a very operationally focused business to quite a lot of long termism in the port space. Like ports, day to day things move fast, but they do move slowly over time. A lot of strategic planning. Does it feel quite different culturally?

Speaker C: Um, culturally it feels a lot different. And there are some other aspects that make it feel quite a lot different. I mean one of them is that as the Port of Melbourne, we are just in Melbourne. So in terms of the balance you get from not having to travel like you do in some of these global companies, that's been um, a real change for me and one that um, I now really appreciate in terms of what that gives me with family dinners and home time and kids growing up and those things. So that's been um, really good. And I feel uh, probably the other big difference with the port is I really do feel that the alignment of what's good for Melbourne, what's good for Victoria, the future economic growth of the state and the other areas beyond Victoria that the port supports is really aligned with the port. So this will sound corny, but when I was, you know, when I was in that process for the CEO role, I was reading a lot of material on the port and I read somewhere that this tagline that said what's good for the port is good for Victoria and the more I thought about it, I really do believe that's right. There's so much self interest across transport logistics and supply chains and that's normal and it's normal in any industry, but it's very strong in. And yet the alignment with what's genuinely good for Victoria and the outcome for um, Victorians and the nation, um, is very closely aligned with what's good for the Port of Melbourne. And so I do like that aspect of our purpose and what we do.

Speaker A: I was going to suggest, I mean just going back to the conversation you had at home around the diversion into medical research is the port role and you do talk a lot around the port and its economic role for the state. It's something of a combination of your logistics, kind of training, but also a bit of that public, public purpose, public infrastructure, you know, a very critical piece of infrastructure.

Speaker C: Um, yes, I fully, I mean that's aligned with how I think about it. And in fact when I look back at the end of Toll, I was planning to take another break as well. So at that point I was thinking, I'm not going to be a full time corporate exec. I'm going to pick and choose the things that really align with my purpose. And then when the opportunity came up around Port of Melbourne, um, and part of it was the M. CFO role at Toll was relocating to Singapore, uh, which wasn't um, sort of the right fit and thing that I wanted to do. I was staying at Toll because I'd committed to concluding and seeing through I was leading the sale of the Global Express division, which was one of the three main sort of the B2B Road Express Division in Melbourne that ended up being sold by Toll to Allegro. So I was completing that and then finishing it. And towards the end of that this Port of Melbourne opportunity came up and when I looked at it again, this will probably sound a bit funny, but when I looked at what the port did, the challenges, the number of moving parts, the stakeholders, the regulated environment that was put in place at the time of the port lease concession, all of it just seemed to fit with my background. And so I just felt this is kind of the perfect role for me. And I still feel that way. I'm a bit over four years in. You know, the phone often rings about opportunities. But quite honestly, there's not another role in Australia that I would want to go and do. I, uh, didn't really aspire to be a CEO. That wasn't a set part of any plan. But this role came up and it's just such a fantastic role that I really feel good about.

Speaker B: My conclusion from all of this is when you're unemployed, you're very easy to sell to.

Speaker C: No, but I've only been unemployed once. It was only that one time after the Asiano transaction. The others all came up before I finished. When you're in a loose end, uh, when I'm thinking about something. Um, so. Well, actually, in fact, that's, ah, another story. I nearly took a step out of legal earlier. I was towards the end of that T3UM process at Telstra. I knew that I didn't want to be a lawyer. And I'd been saying for a while, even back then that I was not going to be a lawyer for much longer. And one of the investment banks who'd been involved in that the T3UM process approached me and offered me a director role. And that was without any kind of hardcore corporate finance background. But they'd seen me as part of the different committees and processes, uh, around the T3 um, Telstra, um process. And at that point in time, um, this firm had mandates for a couple of government privatisations that were lined up before the federal government changed at that point. And so they offered me a job. And then there was a bit of a holdup because one of the principals was off, um, negotiating a deal in, um, to actually merge his firm with another one in New York. And so I had a full offer of employment to go this investment bank. I decided I was leaving Telstra. And that's when the phone rang again. And literally someone said, toll holdings is demerging. They're creating this new infrastructure company. It wasn't even named at that point or was Asiano. Uh, Mark Rosethorn's gonna be the md. Uh, he's looking for a general counsel. Are you interested? And I said, no, I'm not gonna be a lawyer anymore. But I was really intrigued because I'd watched Toll from afar and because of my interest in M and A and transactional work. There was a period where they did over 100 acquisitions in a 10 year period. And they were regarded as a real sort of market, uh, darling and expert around um, transactions. And so I was quite interested to go in and just have a coffee.

Speaker B: It's a different version of the future where you became an investment banker.

Speaker C: And well, this was so different cause I went in and had a coffee with um, this person who was going to be the md. They weren't even through the a CCCC approval for the demerger at the time. And I was offered a job at the end of that. And so I had this. That was probably the most difficult career choice I had because it was still continuing as a lawyer and it was on the other side being an investment banker. And I did a lot of um, soul searching and really that was probably the, the hardest career decision.

Speaker B: Do you reckon made the right call?

Speaker C: 100% made the right call. And in the end there was a couple of things I, you know, I know and like and really respect a lot of investment bankers. But I decided that it wasn't right for me to sell my soul in the way that um, sometimes that happens. Um, I decided that I liked corporate life and that that's what I'd known and that's what I was okay at or good at. So um, so in the end it was the right decision and I took the money out of it because there was an obscene guaranteed amount of sort of money first year at the investment bank compared to a very different prospect, um, in house at a newly listed um, ASX company. But I really had to make the decision on what was going to be right for me in terms of the work and opportunity.

Speaker B: So outside of work there's rugby, tennis, skiing and more recently paddle. Oh, we're going to come back to that one. You have different. Firstly, um, did you get rugby World cup tickets in the recent pre sale?

Speaker C: I didn't. I had friends who were queued online for like there's 10 plus hours. A lot of complaints. I'm quite pleased. I probably didn't go, I can tell

Speaker B: you is once you got to the front of that queue there weren't any

Speaker C: good value options available. Let's more open up.

Speaker B: Uh, I'm sure they will. Um, which team though?

Speaker C: I'm 100 Australian.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: All right, well.

Speaker B: And don't buy following the tickets then I think.

Speaker C: Uh, but paddle tennis.

Speaker B: So you're gonna have to explain what paddle tennis is to the uninitiated because this is not pickleball.

Speaker C: It's not pickleball as paddle or hadel as they might call it in South America and Europe. It's. It's. It's my new passion. It is the most addictive, engaging, um, sport. It's like the best way to describe it is a cross between tennis and squash, um, but it's doubles only. Mostly doubles only. And so the community aspect, the engagement aspect of it, the intensity of the workout you can get with a good game, um, is just really appealing.

Speaker B: And I think you should tell Janice how you nearly played patter after

Speaker C: I. I've been going to a few Masters tournaments, and, um.

Speaker A: For paddle.

Speaker C: For paddle, uh, Masters means the older people age. And so I've been playing in some over 35 and over 45 competitions, um, um, which are the two masters categories. And so my regular partner and I have been traveling to a few tournaments playing, um, because we're both pretty keen on it. Um, and, um, in that 50 to 55 age group, Pat Rafter is the best Padel player in Australia.

Speaker B: But you, uh, told me you got psyched out and didn't quite make it

Speaker C: to the game against. No. Well, there was one tournament where if we'd won one game, which we thought we would and probably should have won, we would have played him. But we, um, yeah, maybe psyched ourselves out because we didn't make it through.

Speaker A: I mean, I was going to ask the question of you, but now I'm also asking you to pat Rafter. Like, why does one graduate from tennis to paddle tennis? Like, what? So is it just the pace and the kind of enforced kind of structure of the doubles that's changing?

Speaker C: Um, I think there's a. There's a few things, and it's really growing significantly overseas. So paddle clubs are opening every other day in all around the world. It's massive in, um, in Europe, in South America, and it's. I don't quite know what it is. It's probably a couple of things. It's. The barriers to entry are, um. Um, a lot lower. So for two beginners who've never played Padel before, you can still go along and pick up a racket and actually have some rallies and hit to each other and have an actual racket and have a fun time. Yeah, it's a smaller, uh. Um. Much smaller racket. Solid, or is it solid made of graphite or carbon? Um, much smaller. Smaller than the tennis racket. But the contrast would be two beginners playing tennis cannot have a, uh, proper decent rally and probably won't enjoy those early hits very much. And you spend a lot of time walking and picking up balls, paddles Enclosed so the ball's in play a whole lot more. The barriers to entry when you start are lower. Uh, but there is then so many layers and levels on how you use the walls and the tactics and for me I think the other thing. So for many years tennis was my sort of big passion and I love tennis, but my biggest weakness in tennis was my serve and my smash from old rugby injuries and shoulder surgery and things and paddle has taken those weaknesses out of the game. So in Padel you serve underarm and I've got a reasonable underarm serve. So my biggest weakness has been removed. And I'm really enjoying the Padel. It's structurally removed but it's the community feel you get from it. So watch the space, it's really going to grow. In Australia, there's clubs continuing, uh, to open. There's now a number down in Melbourne, there's clubs here in Sydney and I know there's a lot of people running around looking for sites for new paddle clubs.

Speaker B: Play it indoors?

Speaker C: Um, no, can, uh, be you can have indoor or outdoor courts, um, indoors you just need enough ceiling height for, you know, lobbing is quite a big part of the game.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Anyway, we digress.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Back to the wheels infrastructure.

Speaker C: You've heard me say this before.

Speaker B: One of the things I love about talking to people, um, at senior levels in ports is you are day to day at the coal face of what's happening in trade. So, um, whilst this, what I'm about to ask you might not age well over time, for people listening to this down the line, we are right now in the first quarter of 2026, what's happening in trade right now, what's changed over the last 12 or 18 months? What are you seeing at the face deport? Because that's an early indicator of what's coming down the line.

Speaker C: It is. And I think in terms of a lead indicator for economic activity, um, full containerised imports is a pretty good one for us here in Australia. I think when you look at car import numbers, that's probably another one that can give you a bit of an indication on discretionary spend and how people are feeling. But overall trade is still very positive. There's clearly a lot of uncertainty and that's the one constant that we've had for a period of time. Now, um, when I look back on the last number of years, one of the key reflections is just how connected we all are. So when you look at global end to end supply chains, an impact or an impost or something in one part of the supply chain has flow on effects right up and down for all of us. So I do try and have quite a focus more broadly on that end to end um, connectivity and efficiency and ensuring that we take a view beyond our own part. So for us that port trade gateway. Yeah but trade overall is very positive and in fact in Melbourne we've had record container volume numbers as an example we did last year, 3.4 million TEU. That's the standard 20 foot size container and that's probably about 38% of the national trade. And that was good.

Speaker B: You know that wouldn't just serve Victoria though.

Speaker C: No. Our catchment area extends beyond Victoria so we're the gateway also pretty much for everything in and out of Tasmania through Melbourne. Uh we also have catchment areas that extend up into the southern parts of New South Wales particularly a lot of exports out of the Riverina region as an example catchment, uh, areas extend over into the eastern part of South Australia. So yes, um, it's clearly beyond Victoria.

Speaker B: I'm sort of intrigued by the noise you get in a geopolitical level is there's, there's risk everywhere you look. Um, Victoria has had some challenges at least at the government level around fiscal capacity and yet the numbers appear from a trade perspective. Consumer spending, etc. New cars is all quite positive.

Speaker C: It has been and I think at a macro level what I'd say is that, and we have a real confidence that those trade numbers and volumes are going to continue growing particularly when you look at Victoria in terms of population growth. So population growth as an island destination where we import a lot of things if not most things, um, trade is going to continue to grow. So we know that and that's consistent with what we've um, been seeing uh through the recent periods despite some of the volatility uncertainty across global supply chains. Um, so it's a robust picture and I think the big challenge that that or what's ahead for us is the big strategic initiative um and focus is we know that trade is going to continue to grow into the medium and longer term and ensuring we're ahead with the right port development to have the right capacity in the right place when it's needed. And that's really the key because from um, the point of view that a port as that trade gateway really underpins economic activity for a region. Uh we need to have investment in the right places ahead of uh, that requirement.

Speaker A: Are there ways that. So certainly container volumes will track population growth and also just economic activity. So the economic cycle to some extent but Are there ways that ports can grow and compete over and above those two factors? Um, and particularly like I took quite an interest when I was sort of preparing for the podcast today, just around the location of the port, like it's right on the edge of the CBD in Melbourne. It takes up a lot of sort of, it's quite a large sort of area along the, along the, the coast of the bay. But yeah, like are there ways in which Port of Melbourne is actually growing, catchment is growing, its sort of markets?

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question and maybe Janice, it would help. I'll give a little bit of context around the port and some of the things that are unique to Melbourne compared to other ports. And you've captured one of those. It's our city location. So we are the only city port located right next to a CBD in terms of the major container ports. So that's quite unique. Um, that does have benefits and other considerations. So from a supply chain point of view, the connectivity um, I think is really benefited from where we're located. So as an example to that, the last time a big container logistics supply chain study was done, 94% of the containers coming into the Port of Melbourne were going within a 50 kilometre radius. So that central location has connectivity benefits in terms of where uh, the freight's going to and coming from. Um, to give you a snapshot of the port, so our uh, land footprint's 534 hectares, which is sizable for that central city location. We've got 55 kilometres of uh, shipping channels that we dredge and maintain. They're the channels that go out through Port Phillip Bay and through the heads that all of the vessels come through. We've got about 95,000 hectares of port waters. Uh, within the, the port confine we've uh, got 30 commercial berths of wharf, uh, infrastructure. So it's a really sizable port and we talk a lot about containers but it is across a really diversified full trade mix of what comes in and out of the port. Um, so in terms of growth and expansion opportunities, one of the recent ones we had was uh, working with the government, uh, around what used to be the former wholesale market site, fruit and vegetable market site on the other side of Footscray Road in Melbourne, just near where that Westgate Tunnel, uh, conic connection, uh, now comes in. Um, that was probably the first key strategic land expansion that we've had and we're well advanced looking at development plans of what we're going to do with that site. It's Just come over to us this year following the Westgate Tunnel project's finishing and us um, um, being handed over the site. But we're really looking at what's the right strategic use of that with the right strategic tenants and indicatively we'll be looking at 500 million of private capital investment by both us and the tenants that come in there, uh, around how that site gets developed. So that in itself when you look at significant global investment into Victoria, does underpin that confidence in future trade and demand and that outlook.

Speaker B: Um, it's about a decade since the port was privatised so I'm going to ask a leading question. Um, does it work well as a privatised port?

Speaker C: Well I think it works really well and if you just look at the experience and what's um, evolved over the last 10 years. So you're right, it was, I think on the 31st of October this year will be the 10 year anniversary of when that port lease transaction was uh, done. Um, the government at the time raised 9.7 billion in terms of that 50 uh year lease concession that was sold. Um, we've got a group of, of really good long term sophisticated shareholders who are genuinely uh, looking at the long term and the investment requirements as well as shareholding.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So our shareholder mix, we've got the Future Fund, Australia's sovereign wealth fund, we've got QIC, uh out of Queensland, we've got GIP, Global Infrastructure Partners now part of BlackRock, very big uh, global um, investment uh, firm and we've got Omers, uh one of the Canadian pension funds. So it's such uh, a uh, I mean I genuinely say to our team and our people that we are so privileged and lucky to have the shareholder group we've got. They all have a long term view, they're all experienced global infrastructure investors and it really helps having that alignment in terms of what we need to do for the next decade plus ahead in terms of the port development plans and

Speaker B: assuming the investments are right, they've got the pockets deep enough to be able to fund the capital you need to meet.

Speaker C: Yes, clearly you have to show the right business cases around significant capital investment. Um, coming back to your question to Adrian, so just on investment since privatisation as private investment, the port's invested over a billion dollars. So there's another sort of indication of what we've done over the last ten years. Um, there's a big investment infrastructure pipeline ahead. So indicatively over the next decade we're probably looking at five times that in terms of, of the port development plans for the next fourth international container terminal, relocating and finding the right home for the Tasmanian trade up river at Victoria Dock. Um, all of our investment across what we call our port capacity enhancement program, those two key projects plus the broader capital investment program indicatively is $5 billion of investment over the next decade. So that's a big step up in terms of scale, intensity, complexity, uh, for what we've got ahead. So a big focus at the moment is actually getting ready that growth.

Speaker B: Does that have to change, um, who you are as an organization and the kind of people you need to be able to deliver that?

Speaker C: Um, yes, and that's very timely. I've just been going through a very comprehensive, we've called it a business readiness review. And it's not about restructures to take out jobs or do those things. It's genuinely about what's the operating model, what's the capability and capacity we need to deliver, uh, on that future.

Speaker B: So it is a step change then from the past that kind of next.

Speaker C: It's what we do. It's not different to what we do, but it's a level of complexity and scale that is a step up from what we've done in the past. So there's a big focus around for me, um, the capability and structures we need. So we are just going through a couple of internal restructures that I've just recently announced and um, there will be a number of new roles with new capability we bring in as part of delivering on that future

Speaker A: and just um, the capacity that's being planned. So I sort of saw there was a inertial plan to really look at you know, growing container capacity, you know, doubling it over a number of years. And is, is the, is the sort of big investment really heading into the container side of the port? Are there other areas like around the automotives and like and is there a kind of. What I'm seeing around a lot of the other ports is um, you know, expansion and investment around serving energy transition and renewables. Is that part of the planning as well? Like what's the sort of set of.

Speaker C: So the, the, the it sounds like you may have had a look at our port development strategy. So in December we put out our 30 year port development strategy to look at what that outlook looks like through to 2055. And uh, and in particular really detail what are the projects that are either underway in planning or potential over the next 15 years through to 2040. The key two ones in there in terms of the bigger Scale of investment is what we call our port capacity enhancement program. So that is the development of the next container terminal capacity at Webdoc North. So that's the area to the north of where we have the fully automated terminal at VICT at Webdoc. That area proposed uh, for um, the development of the next container terminal is where the Tasmanian trade currently operates. So the two bass trade operators who run daily services to and from Tasmania, uh, and so we're working with all of those uh, parties around how we relocate and develop and find the right long term home uh to ensure we continue to support in the right way and have the right capacity for that Tasmanian trade into the future.

Speaker B: Yeah, you've alluded to the kind of um, the landlord model that the port has. I just want to kind of unpack the tensions in that. So you are, you uh, have the 50 year lease for the land but there are tenants that are the facilities Steved or providers, et cetera. Presumably there is a tension there and that they don't want you to over deliver capacity.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, how does that play out? Is it a bit like a Qantas and an airport type tension?

Speaker C: Well there's a couple of things. So um, you're right in terms of the landlord model we currently have I think it's 71 tenants across that broader uh port area and they're all pretty long term, um a number of them long term. So we in fact just announced um, a couple in the last few weeks an extension of the VI C lease out to 2066 uh which is the end of the port concession that we have as the Port of Melbourne landlord. Um and that takes all three of the container stevedores out to 2066. So they are long term leases that a number of the tenants have but they're making big long term investments in terms of um, enhancing their own facilities and building their own ah capacity for what's needed in the future. Um so you know there's always a natural tension. So we've done a lot of work, we do a lot of consultation and uh, we did a lot of work around looking at long term trade forecast, ship fleet forecasts because the size and mix of vessels uh, impacts the capacity um, as well as assessing the capacity across the existing um, port terminal operations. And all of that indicates that it's around 2036 where we need to have operational that next container terminal when we first start hitting our uh, points of congestion.

Speaker B: Just because it's occurred to me right now to what extent is there contestable trade between say you and Sydney or Brisbane, how are you competing for that incremental additional.

Speaker C: Yeah, so that'll depend on where trade's going to and coming from. And there are certainly contestable areas where we really heavily compete, where exporters and importers have an option on where they might um, bring their trade in and out through. Um, as an example, one area would be the southern parts of New South Wales. So where that, that distance and that cost of the land transport might be sort of similar between Botany and Sydney and Melbourne. And uh, there'll be contestable uh, trade in those areas. Um, if congestion gets to a point where ships are queuing and there's costs in the supply chain in undue way, then there's, you know, there's always the potential or if there are impacts to the supply chain and there are port closures or weather event or different things. You know, you do see boxes landing at different ports. But um, I think the difference in Australia to some overseas locations where ports, you know, really compete with full contestability across all trade is just the geographical distance in Australia. So we're about what, 900 meters? 900 meters. 900 kilometres between Sydney and Melbourne and um, must be more than double that to Brisbane. Um, so that cost of bringing a box across the land, whether it's by road or rail, is, you know, do

Speaker B: you think, like, say if the um, the broad concept of inland rail is ultimately delivered, does that change that dynamic?

Speaker C: Well, it should, um, if that's delivered in a really efficient way, that should really extend the contestable M in the areas where contestable trade have different choices, whether it's to go out through Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne. Um, I wanted to talk a bit

Speaker B: about sort of more future focused and the, the issue du jour across the whole economy is productivity. Um, uh, productivity's been pretty stark focus in ports for a long time. We think about Ukraine, race and other stuff. But how do you see ports as an opportunity to lean into that productivity push that the country should be having?

Speaker C: Well, the first thing I would say is I agree with you. As a nation we have a productivity challenge and that's got to be a key focus for all of us. So I think whatever organisation you're in and whatever part of uh, industry, or for us, whatever part of the supply chain you're in, we should all be looking at how we can drive productivity and efficiency gains in the port areas. Um, there's, I mean one example would even just be looking at what VRCT do down in Melbourne. So that's a Bit of a flagship for Australia. That's the only fully automated terminal in the Southern hemisphere.

Speaker B: Can you explain what fully automated means in Laypas?

Speaker C: So um, the mode of operation for that terminal is they have their key cranes, the ship to shore cranes. They're the ones on the wharf that's taking the boxes on and off the ships and bringing them down, um, um, uh, into the terminal area. Um, there's no one driving those cranes at vict. So that's the only terminal in Australia where you, you can still see um, a box, a glass box cabin on those cranes but there's no one driving them. And there's a control tower in the far corner um, of that terminal where you've got some operators sitting with multiple um, screens and are able to take control of uh, those. So there's no one up in the driver cabins. They then use these automated shuttles to run the boxes from where it's put on the ground when the crane, the key crane takes it off the shuttle across to what they call the ASCs, the automated stacking cranes. And then they've got um, a number of bays of automated stacking cranes which can actually stack 5 height. So that's more than what you'll see in some of the different operations that run straddle carriers which might be ah, a one over two straddle. So you'll see a maximum of three height in the container yard. So they have automated stacking cranes. So you do get some greater efficiency of the intensity in your container yard with higher stack heights. Um, and they have ASCs running right through to um, uh the truck.

Speaker B: So um, the computer brain of the system is doing the operations but it's making the decisions as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, making decisions. It's a really impressive visit and if you or um, any listeners are down in Melbourne we can easily arrange a tour. But it's really impressive to see it. You've got that full containerised operation without a single person in there.

Speaker A: And when did that system get introduced? How long has it been automated for?

Speaker C: Um, that was introduced just prior to the lease transaction. So the Victorian government ran a tender process at that point to appoint what was the third operator at that point in time in Melbourne. And VI C is owned by ictsi, a global um, operator out of the Philippines. And that terminal has been operating must be a year or so before. A year or two before the privatization of the port happened. So it'd be more uh, than 10 years.

Speaker B: So I broke your train of thought on um, productivity. So there's the greater Degree of automation.

Speaker C: Yeah, we have to, I mean we have to look at um, technology and what that can drive. Um, we have to. With the port, you know you have to look at all aspects. It's not just on the water side but you have to look at the land side connections, particularly for us here. So, so when you do, you referred to sort of some of the port metrics and how we might compare um, here in Australia you do have to be aware of comparing like for like. So it's very different as an example to say let's look at Singapore which is very impressive. But Singapore is a transshipment port that does 40 million containers Tus, um, each year. But only five of them are actually going to the hinterland. So it's very different for us when all of our cargoes are actually import and exports, uh, that need to travel through the landside connection. And so you know we have to look at that efficiency and connectivity uh, uh, right through the supply chain.

Speaker B: I mean there's a recent addition of the West Gate tunnel that comes direct into the port precinct. Are there other things that need to happen into the future from, in terms of landslide connection capacity to really extract the value?

Speaker C: For me, the other thing I'm quite passionate about is rail. We have to look at how we um, put more um, freight onto rail and that's going to be important just for how we deliver. So when we know that trade growth is going to continue, rail has to play a bigger part of the solution on um, you know, with modal shift and getting more volumes onto rail. So we're pretty focused on that.

Speaker A: Do you have a target? Like is there something you're sort of shooting for in terms of how much could go by?

Speaker C: The challenge Janice, with rail is we have to have all parts of the system in place. And so you know we've just had come online the inland Intermodal terminal at Somerton, uh, in Melbourne. Um, I think we've seen about 40 trains uh, from Somerden into the port since that terminal opened. We're still needing to see, you know, that port shuttle volumes going to Dandenong and to Altona to the other two inland intermodal terminals. But you know, getting the right sort of system in place. And then there is the challenge that to make short haul rail viable and really work, you have to have scale. So we have to work out how we get the volume onto that rail. Um, from a port perspective we're trying to really try and, and help and do what we can. We've actually got a Startup incentive that's in the market at the moment. We've had good expressions of interest around that to try and help bridge some of that um, uh, gap between the competitiveness of road because that's probably the biggest challenge. We've just seen road becoming more and more competitive with high productivity vehicles, with investment into road infrastructure and rail. Um, you know, still still has some challenges but it's a really important one for us as a nation that we get more freight onto rail and um,

Speaker B: just moving away from the land side back to the water side. You mentioned ships getting bigger. Um, that has consequences for the port and the size of vessels you need to be able to meet. Can you just talk us through what the outlook looks like there?

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, sure. So when we look at our port development plans, what we're planning and preparing for is to be able to accommodate the largest size of vessels that are expected to come to Australia. And that's a vessel indicatively 14,000 TU capacity. So 14,000 of those 20 foot standard sized containers, about 367 metres long. And that's a step up from what we see at the moment. So at the moment the largest vessel that's called Australia, that came to uh, us in Melbourne and also Sydney, um, was about 11,000 tu, about 335 meters long.

Speaker B: So where that's like three rugby pitch, a bit more three and a bit rugby pitches.

Speaker C: When you see them up close they're you know.

Speaker B: How many paddle courts is that?

Speaker C: A lot. Um, you know they're really big ships. Now that's not as large as you see on other trade lanes um, around the globe. You know there are, there are ships already in operation with more than 20,002 capacity. So um, when we look at Australia, uh, you know the shipping alliance will typically call at uh, the major container ports, uh, when they're um, down in Australia. And so you actually have to look at what all of us can sort of accommodate in terms of that. And it's expected that what we all need to plan for is that 14,000 TU sized vessel.

Speaker B: What's the constraint on accommodating them?

Speaker C: Well there'll be different constraints in different places. There's the depth of shipping channels. Um, there's another consideration for us in Melbourne with the entry into Port Phillip Bay through the heads as it's called. Um, part of why the container terminal in Melbourne needs to go at Web Dock north that I was explaining before is looking at some other constraints that are unique to Melbourne. When you go up the Yarra, there's The height of the Westgate Bridge and then at Swanson Dock um, uh, where we have the two uh, terminals uh, with Patrick and DP World, there's a consideration around the swing basin so the length of the vessels as they swing around and come in backwards with tugs into Swanson dungeons.

Speaker B: Doc, we've spoken about this before but uh, and I, and I, I know the answer but um, the airline industry and airports, ah, sort of going back 20 years made huge investments to accommodate a Future which had a 380 style super jumbo um type setups. It's a big investment in um, the, the sky bridges and stuff to, to get 5, 600 people out of a plane. Then the technology took a different pathway towards smaller, more fuel efficient point to point transport. Is there a danger that actually those bigger vessels might not come to Australia for some other constraint? And actually uh, the future is more smaller vessels. Is there a danger of kind of stranded assets in the investments you're making?

Speaker C: You've always got to work through that carefully and try and look at different scenarios. But I think we will see vessels of that size. I mean one example of just where we find ourselves today up around that 10, 11,000 TEU size vessel that's larger, significantly larger than what was forecasted and anticipated to be calling Australia at this point in time. So already that history and experience over recent years has been we've seen larger vessels arriving and calling in Australia earlier than what people would have forecasted back uh, at the time. I mean to give you one example of that, when the VI C terminal was developed initially um by government, uh before the lease transaction, the keyline length was 660 metres long and that was thought to be large enough to accommodate two of the largest vessels that were foreseen at that point in time to call to Australia. One of the projects that we completed uh, a couple of years ago, and it was a small one in the context of the port, but it was important was it was called our web dock East Extension and we just extended by 71 metres, um, that 660 metre keyline to be 731 metres. Which meant that there were already times when Vict was effectively um, operating as a one berth terminal if two large ships more than 300 metres long were calling at the same time. And so that small in the context of the port extension um, enables uh, it to uh, you know operate as a two berth terminal with vessels calling now. So we have to look forward. You do need an element of future proofing, uh the investment you make I think the more adverse outcome would be to think that they're not coming, um, and not invest and develop to accommodate that and then get caught short.

Speaker A: Um, can I ask about just sustainability? Um, and I saw the port was awarded very highly on the global real estate sustainability benchmark. It came sort of first amongst globals, like in 2025. I think it was in 2024, like. And is there much that the port has to do, not just in terms of, like, decarbonisation, but also just around sort of hard infrastructure adaptation? Is the bay itself a kind of factor in the way the future port infrastructure needs to be designed?

Speaker C: Yes, we've got a. I mean we have a big ongoing focus on sustainability and how we can look to the future and do things differently. I mean, on that, the Gresbie result. I am actually quite proud of the team and what we've done there. When I, um, started in the first year we were doing Gresbie, we were ranked seventh out of seven, uh, ports. And for the last two years we've now been, um, well, equal. First with another port that's scored the same perfect score as we did, um, this last year. But last year we were the number one on our own. And the challenge with that is maintaining, um, the performance and the continual improvement and those things get harder each year. But a lot of that was putting in what I'd sort of call the foundational pieces around sustainability and our capacity um, and capabilities in that area and our plans and what we do. It's now about how do we really make a, uh, meaningful impact? And so if you take a landlord port model like ours, and we've done a lot of work looking at the port footprint and the footprint we look at is the land boundary, but also, uh, the right out to the port, um, water boundary. And I mentioned sort of the size of the port waters and the length of the shipping channels before. As a landlord port, um, we will be net zero for our own scope one and two, um, emissions by 2030. And we're sort of down the path on that. And. But that's, I won't say relatively, I won't say easy, but it's relatively easy as a landlord port, because when you look at the total footprint, 99% of our footprint is scope 3 emissions. When you then look at the scope 3 emissions, 2/3 of that is from the shipping lines. And that's just measuring the shipping line emissions from when they enter the port waters to when they leave the port waters. And so if we're going to Make a meaningful impact. It is about how do we work with the shipping lines, how do we um, support and invest and do what might be needed to move them to a greener fuel future and the shipping

Speaker A: influence that a port's able to really ship shipping decarbonisation.

Speaker C: Well, we're going to have to be working with them. And part of the solution, so to give you an example Janice of that is that green methanol is talked about as one of the future fuels that the shipping lines might move and some of their forward orders of vessels are uh, for dual powered green methanol, uh, vessels or E methanol vessels that um, um E methanol is more voluminous than uh, the marine fuel they currently use. Um, currently container ships as an example don't bunker or refuel in Australia. If they um, if they don't want to forego all that cargo space to carry double the amount or plus of fuel, they're going to have to bunker us somewhere in Australia. So we're looking at the opportunity. Could Melbourne be a bunkering hub? Um, um, and we've brought together a group of uh, you know, quite sort of relevant key participants to see whether there might be some opportunities to explore there. But there are commercial challenges to make it viable and those things. But, but there's definite opportunities we need to be working with and no one player, you have to look at the supply chain of how we can collaborate and work together on those things.

Speaker A: And the green methanol, does it use the same vessels so you actually just drop it into existing vessels or do you actually need to transition fleets?

Speaker C: Uh, they would need to retrofit um, fleet. But the plan as I understand it with the shipping lines is more about the forward orders for new vessels, uh, with these new fuel types, uh, that will be coming in the fish future.

Speaker B: Um, we've come to the end of the time available but we always ask all of our guests the same question, which is what's your favorite sort of infrastructure and wine?

Speaker C: Well that's a pretty straightforward question for me. Um, I genuinely love ports and so I have to say ports.

Speaker B: But there's more detail in which part of port sorts. The.

Speaker C: I, uh, I just really love the fact that the port is the key trade gateway for everything in and out of that region or the place where the port is and it really is critical. And in Australia I feel like ports are even more critical because of the fact that we're an island, uh, destination. We really rely on our uh, on the trade that comes through our Ports. And so they're such key gateways that I really do believe underpin the economic future of Australia. So if you get back, you know, if you even tie it back to your productivity question, we have to have our port operating well because I genuinely feel that when the ports are operating well, that underpins the economy, the communities and what we all rely on in our daily lives. So, um, I love ports and we need them going well, I'm going to push off.

Speaker B: You said ports, but there's seaports and airports. Now, uh, I know you were talking about seaports, but the role you described would also apply to airports.

Speaker C: There are a lot of parallels. I love catching up and, um, have a good relationship with Laurie Argus at Melbourne Airport. And when I hear Laurie talk about Melbourne Airport, the parallels between our, um, seaports and our port, our airports, um, uh, are very relevant and similar.

Speaker B: All right, top three types of infrastructure then.

Speaker C: Top three. Well, I'll have to go. Um, seaports, uh, as number one. Um, I'll put airports in there as number two. And, um, given the recent opening, which I do think is a game changer of the Westgate Tunnel project in terms of the connectivity and benefits into the Port of Melbourne, um, I'll put toll roads and that kind of infrastructure as number.

Speaker B: Note the theme of, uh, three sorts of infrastructure funded by users rather than taxpayers there as well. So we can put down user charging as one of your preferred options.

Speaker C: Good. Well, you said it.

Speaker B: I forced those answers.

Speaker C: Thank you very much. Thank you both. Enjoyed the discussion.

Speaker B: Really appreciate it. Thanks a lot.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: This episode episode of Inside Infrastructure was recorded, produced and researched by Wingman Tan, Isabel Woodward, Kirsty Timsons and Baronia Morrison.