Unlocking Digital Assets: Fireside Chat with OKX Australia’s CEO, Kate Cooper, and Build GM & Director of Sales, Dean Martin

Speaker A: For today's episode, Dean Martin, GM and Director of Sales at Bulk Group, sits down with Kate Cooper, CEO of OKEx Australia. We hope you enjoy today's episode.

Speaker B: I'm Dean Martin, GM M and Director of Sales at Bulk Group. Today I'm delighted to be joined by the Amazing Kate Cooper, CEO, uh, of OkX Australia. Kate, I'm really looking forward to hearing all about your extraordinary globetrotting journey from traditional finance to the brave new world of digital frontiers.

Speaker C: Thanks so much, Dean. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: So Kate, it's coming up to a decade since you moved from the UK and just over six months since you started as CEO, uh, of OKEx Australia. Can you take us through the key milestones in that journey?

Speaker C: Yeah, happy to. And I should start by saying I have a very British accent, but I'm Aussie by birth, born in Tasmania, um, but grew up in London, hence the accent. And you're right, um, 2016 was when I relocated the family back to Australia after 15 years living in the UK and it was a really fascinating time actually to be in Australia. We were directly post the Royal Commission and banking reform and I started in a role at Westpac, uh, where I was originally coming in to lead innovation, but ended up with the broader transformation agenda under me, which was a fascinating journey over a five year period as the bank really adapted to the changing world, really adapted to digitization and became increasingly customer centric, which was really the anchor of the transformation there was. I then went and joined NAB and again leading innovation, but focused very quickly on the digital assets space, which again was fascinating in terms of the extent to which the bank was willing to consider different forms of technology and different forms of financial systems actually. Uh, so that was an amazing four years and then have spent the last two years now in crypto, first of all as a, as the CEO of zodiacustody, which was actually a secondment from NAB after, um, NAB took a strategic investment in them. Um, and then most recently, as you said, I've joined OKEx Australia leading the charge there and it's a fascinating, fascinating time to be in the industry.

Speaker B: Wow. So, I mean the key theme I'm picking up on there is this transition from a traditional banker to, you know, the digital finance and digital industry. Do you want to talk to us a little bit more about what made you decide to make that change?

Speaker C: Yeah, listen, my career has been varied, uh, and I won't go into my history prior to my time in Australia, but there's always been a golden thread and the golden thread has been being a change maker and I've always been at the frontier of technology development. So for example, uh, back in 2007, 2008, I was the first head of social media for the UK government and that was when Web2 was brand new. Uh, government was trying to get its head around transparency and the amount of transparency that was emerging out of Web 2.0. And so really what I've sought to do is always be on that cutting edge. I really enjoy working through the ambiguity and helping especially um, large institutions and individuals on that journey. How do you navigate that edge, especially that technology driven edge. And you know that for me is where the excitement exists. Enjoy being an agent of change, but I hope always change for the better.

Speaker B: So uh, uh, look, I want to pick up on, you know, you've had time in other continents in the UK and Australia. You landed here in 2016. What did the finance and fintech landscape look like to you and has that perspective shifted?

Speaker C: I think Australia has always been very strong from a financial services perspective. We obviously have a really strong local financial services ecosystem. But at the time when I moved over here, uh, given I moved from Europe and I'd been doing some finance projects across Europe, it was definitely a sense that the banking system itself was a year or two behind the innovations that I was seeing, for example in London. What definitely wasn't behind though was consumer appetite and Australians wanting to have effective efficient banking rails and seeking new ways to achieve that. Which is I think one of the reasons why Australia has become, become um, one of the most highest uh, crypto adoption rates in the world. Because Australian consumers are always looking for better and what's next. But the banking system has absolutely come a long way over those last 10 years. We've seen uh, big movements from uh, not just the big banks, but more importantly a really vibrant fintech community. And it's something that I've been involved in for the last 10 years. Reinventure was part of the Westpac portfolio at the time when I was leading innovation there and obviously has been a key investor in the fintech ecosystem. And I think that's been really important to have Australia punch actually above our weight in FinTech over those 10 years and lead the way. And I think uh, you know, innovations like for example afterpay are a really good example of taking something that was created in Australia and has been shipped globally now. So it's definitely an exciting place to be. What I love about Australia is the innovation is grounded. It's not about hype Aussies are very practical, um, individuals. And so it's not about the next shiny thing, it's about actually how do we solve real problems with the latest technology. And so for me, that's one of the exciting things about Australia as an innovation nation.

Speaker B: So I think that's a really interesting point. Do you think that drive for innovation, I mean, you said at the start, uh, that Australians are earlier adopters of technology. Are we seeing the consumers driving help to drive that change? I mean, you mentioned that the banking is catching up. So which one do you think is causal? Is that a fertile dynamic for this industry?

Speaker C: I think it's definitely a fertile dynamic. I think you've got a number of different moving parts at play. You've got Australians being curious, um, and open to new opportunities and new ways of doing things. Uh, you've got a very, kind of vibrant technology scene and Australians are generally very technology enabled and able to work with new technologies. But you've also got the generational shift that's taking place. And we've talked a lot over the last year about the rise of the millennial generation and the subsequent generations that are following. My children and the change we see in the way that they interact with digital technology is utterly extraordinary. I think about my son, who's 13, and the way in which he is able to interact with new apps, new games, without a second thought and completely natively. And I think the challenge for all of us, but in particular the traditional finance sector, is how do we adapt in order to support for what is an increasing pace of change. I always like to say the pace of change will never be this slow again, it's just increasing. And so we have to, uh, in all walks of life, be able to adapt to that.

Speaker B: Thank you. That's a really good segue. Let's talk about digital money, CBDCs, stablecoin, tokenised deposits. These are all hot topics. How do you see them reshaping the future of banking and finance in Australia?

Speaker C: I think they've taken their time to come to fruition and maturity and I think Australia remains a little bit behind the rest of the world. I think we're seeing much more advanced moves, especially in the States, since, um, the election of Trump. And we're seeing, um, certainly 2024 was called the year of stablecoins. As stablecoins very much came into the fore. They're foundational, not just about crypto, this is about the financial system and about the movement of money and in particular the movement of value. And certainly we're Anticipating that there'll be some Australia specific stablecoins that will be entering the market. There are already some in the market. In addition we've seen the Reserve bank of Australia um, through Project Acacia, explore central bank digital currencies. And I think from a consumer perspective when there's an understanding of the efficiency and the effectiveness they drive, in particular in use cases like cross border payments, I think there'll be a uh, real interest in looking at ways to integrate that into our everyday lives as well as in our institutions.

Speaker B: Uh, I think I really like your point about you know, the change in, in the US and I guess in our region we see other governments perhaps more supportive of this change. Do you think the regulator and the Australian government need to play a bigger role in this space? Is that something that you've got some views on?

Speaker C: I think that we have been as an industry been seeking fit for purpose legislation um, from the government certainly for at least two or three years. As an industry we've been welcoming of those guardrails and of safekeeping of consumers and it's been slow and we're definitely lagging uh, behind some other jurisdictions like for example Dubai and Singapore which are really leading the way and becoming global hubs for digital innovation and digital finance innovation. And I think that's a missed opportunity for Australia. We recently worked with ah, DECA and the DFCRC to look at quantifying what could be the opportunity for Australia if we were to adopt fit for purpose regulation, but also put in place the institutional rails that would enable us to benefit from uh, this technology. And the initial findings from that research have indicated that a possible productivity gain of $19 billion or equivalent to 1% of Australia's GDP could be unlocked if we get the digital finance activity right. So I think, and that's per annum. 19 billion per annum. So I think the government now has everything it needs in order to understand the economic potential of this section. And certainly the indications are they're ready to act.

Speaker B: That is a big number and it's something should get the attention of government regulators and the general population. But which sectors do you see benefiting the most from that? What does the research tell us?

Speaker C: So the research is only part way through. The full research will be released by the DFCRC in November. The main area that they focused on in this initial large number was um, around uh, cross border payments and fx. And that's definitely one of the use cases that we're seeing digital money uh, perform a very valuable role obviously from an institutional perspective. Perspective There are huge flows across borders of currencies. But even if you think about me as a consumer, I had to send $2,000 over to the U.K. uh, last week and it took, I had to log into my bank account, I had to put in a whole load of numbers that I didn't easily have access to. It wasn't just a simple bank account, it cost me $80 and the money didn't arrive in the receiving bank account for four days. And so the opportunity is that that happens almost for the cost of an SMS and it happens in near uh, real time. And so I am not missing out on the upside of that $2,000 in the four day transmission that it takes. And I think if you think about all those micro use cases, you can start to see where a $19 billion productivity uplift might come from.

Speaker B: Particularly, you know, Australia, it's geographically isolated, our trading partners are all over the globe. There is this massive transfer of value and being able to do that in near real time at low cost has to be a part of our future, right?

Speaker C: Absolutely. And one of the other interesting stats about Australia is we have um, cities which are amongst the largest penetration of people who've not been born in Australia. So we're, you know, a hugely um, migration driven nation. I believe in Sydney indeed. Yeah. Dean's pointing at both me and him because we're both part of that diaspora really. Um, I believe in Sydney 37% of people were not born in Australia. And so you think about the connectivity that we have as a nation to the world and the friction that all of us who want to send money around the world for various reasons have. We have to find a better way to do that. And of course blockchain technology. And actually OKX is planning and intending to solve for this problem.

Speaker B: You know, this one is just one of those obvious ones that seems like it needs to happen and all the pieces are finally lining up. But look, you've had a front row seat to the evolution of digital finance. Are uh, there signals or ripple effects emerging from crypto which others, particularly those outside industry, might not yet be seeing clearly?

Speaker C: I think this goes back to my point about Australians being grounded, not driven by hype, because one of the biggest hype cycle things in the hype cycle at the moment is AI, um, and actually for me one of the strongest signals that we're seeing globally is the convergence of technology. So I don't think it's acceptable anymore to just think about technology in a silo. So for example, in my case just Talk about blockchain technology. We have to think about how we blend those different technologies to solve problems that haven't been solved up until now, to reduce friction that hasn't been resolved up until now and to deliver better experiences overall. And so for me, you've got blockchain bringing trust and transparency, you've got AI bringing intelligence and scale. And if you think about them together, they really enable trust, minimized decision making and decision, um, making at speed. And for me that's the opportunity. We're seeing a redesign of digital systems. Overall, it's not just about finance, it's about identity verification, it's about compliance, it's even about governance and making sure that fit for purpose governance underpins the financial system.

Speaker B: There's a lot in that. Um, I might sort of broaden the frame a bit. Do you think the banking, financial services and crypto native platforms are on a path to coexist or are we headed for a showdown?

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Speaker C: Well, I've been on both sides of the um, journey and certainly if I think about my time at National Australia bank, there was a lot of defensiveness because DEFI has been fairly kind of anti the traditional system in its ideology. But I think we've learned over the last few years, especially since some of the collapse, uh, scandals like the FTX scandal, that actually if this is going to be a technology that is ubiquitous and used in everyday lives, it needs to operate within a regulated environment and be responsible. And I think that's the thing that traditional finance does really, really well. And so I'd to see a convergence of the two. I'd like to see all of the innovation, all of the, um, speed and efficiency of the technology that underpins crypto combined with the responsible activities of traditional banks and delivering the best outcomes for everyday Australians.

Speaker B: You know, it's the old adage, right? Banks are great at scaling, but they're not great at innovating. So how do we navigate, how do we navigate that path to coexistence?

Speaker C: Well, I think, uh, we've touched on it already, but I think regulation is an unlocker. When I was at nab, it was a Very easy pushback for stakeholders who didn't really understand the technology to say, well, the regulation's grey, so we'll sit and watch until we have the clarity. And so we've got most of the large institutions in Australia still sitting and watching and huge amounts of capital still sitting with those institutions. And so I think the unlocker will undoubtedly be not just the regulation, but the clarity that it brings. What we're all craving is clarity. We want to operate within the rules, but, uh, if the rules are not 100% clear, it's very difficult to interpret them. So for me, clear regulation introduced this year or early next year will be an unlocker of institutional adoption. It will give all market participants the parameters within which to operate responsibly. And we can then move from kind of the death spiral of proof of concepts, which I think the traditional sector has been stuck in for a long time, and we can start to move towards actually opportunities to collaborate. And one of the really good examples of that is the global collaboration between OkX and Standard Chartered bank, where we're working with Standard Chartered, um, using their custody solution, uh, to provide safekeeping of digital assets for our global clients. And I think that that's a really good example of a collaboration from both sides of, of the ponds.

Speaker B: That were great. Look, um, you've touched on this a couple of times, so I just want to pull this thread a bit more. You know, you're sitting at the center of all these industry shifts, regulation, platform innovation, new players. How does that shape the way you're thinking about growing OKx here in Australia?

Speaker C: Yeah, look, listen, for me, um, OKex is investing in Australia for the long term. We haven't just got like a token person on the ground. We've got a team of 30 sitting in an office in Sydney. And, um, so we're very much committed not just to, obviously serving, um, everyday Australians and institutions, but also contributing to the broader agenda. It's one of the reasons why we sponsored the research into the economic impact of digital assets more broadly, because we wanted to contribute to the national dialogue and, uh, contribute to the sector being prioritised. And so I think that that's been a key part of our strategy overall. We're raising the game in terms of trust in the sector. One of the things we do is we issue a, uh, quarterly, what we call responsibility report. And the idea behind that is we give anyone who wants to find out more about our business a look under the hood. And so that includes key data points like proof of reserves, where you can see your assets held one to one on chain, um, all the way through to. Who are the faces that are serving you in Australia? We are not a faceless app. We actually have, you know, people who are representing and serving, you know, customers every day. And so I think that's been a really useful tool to both, um, look under the hood of our business, but also raise standards in the industry overall. You know, partly, I'm hoping that this is a call to action to say other players also operate with the same level of transparency, which I think is really, really important if we're going to, as a sector, be participating as an adult in the room.

Speaker B: So it seems to me you're really thinking about this at an industry and Australian level and perhaps regional level. So, you know, if I were to replay what I'm hearing, look, you're leading a business and being very open with your peers, with government, with the regulators and helping them to mature, perhaps mature their thinking. I mean, Australia, you touched on it earlier in the conversation. You know, this concept of being in a global village, there's a lot of multiculturalism in Australia. There's a lot of money transitioning. This is a better and a smarter way to do it. And yet, you, uh, know, we've got this concept of trying to move to a clever country. It seems like we're still trying to play catch up and it seems like you're really trying to drive that change.

Speaker C: Yes, I think that's fair to say. I take on that mantle with humility though, because I don't believe any individual has all the answers. But I believe that it's very, um, important to ask the right questions and then empower those around you. Mostly I surround myself with the team who are far more skilled than I in their particular subject matter expertise. And then it's like, how do we pull towards a common goal? And the goal is needs to be purpose driven like this. I don't go to work every day just to, you know, follow the motions. Um, I go to work every day to make a difference. And that's the thing, the common thread that I found in all people, in all walks of life. Pretty much everyone wants to make a difference in some way, shape or form. So the extent to which I can enable and empower that is kind of a cornerstone of how I lead OkX, but how I've led throughout my career.

Speaker B: I'd like to hear more about that. I mean, you know, you've led teams across continents, industries, business cycles. You're now in the fastest moving sector globally. You've got 20 years of leadership experience. I understand you've developed a philosophy for navigating uncertainty and complexity. What are the core principles?

Speaker C: Yeah, I call it leading at the edge. Um, and I'm currently exploring the potential to write a book about this concept of the edge, which is how do we navigate the ambiguity that we are facing into? Every single one of us is on the receiving ends of this incredible pace of change. Even if I think about myself over the last 12 months and my own learning journey around AI and how to benefit from AI in my day, day to day life, it's been the most exponential learning journey imaginable. And I think about that then across, you know, 27 million Australians. And I think about the um, incredible challenge that represents to us, but also the incredible opportunity. And I talked earlier about the golden thread of being a change maker throughout my career. And one of the things I've learned is that being a change maker isn't the heir of the rarefied few. Actually we as humans, everyone has the ability to tap into change making potential and actually operate on that edge of technology advancement and thrive, not just survive. And so I'm really keen to look at the ways that we can, I can help share some of the tools I've had to hone and master over my career in order to help others navigate that edge of change.

Speaker B: Let's, I mean, you know, most, I think it's clear to those listening that you've spent time abroad, um, but having resettled back Australia, what surprised you the most, personally or professionally?

Speaker C: It's a good question. I think that from a kind of slightly negative perspective, I'm always quite surprised at how conservative Australia can be as a country. Um, and I think that that's one of the things that can sometimes hold us back. But the flip side of that is we are hugely curious and ambitious at the same time. And so looking at the opportunities that that represents, I think about, you know, the global businesses that have been founded here, like Canva, like Atlassian, and so we absolutely have it in our locker. I'm really keen to understand how do we unlock um, that, that capacity. And so yeah, for me it's continuing to explore that. I have two children, an 11 year old and a 13 year old and obviously the world they're going to be, um, leaving school and entering into is probably almost unimaginable from where we're sitting today. And it's only five years away. And so the extent to which we can help everyday Australians not just be a passenger on that journey, but actually be agents of change themselves and actually be participants I think is a really interesting challenge and one that I'm exploring, um, trying to understand, trying to navigate myself.

Speaker B: Indeed. You've mentioned your family a couple of times. I'm interested to hear a bit about what you do outside of work. Uh, I understand that family and health are all related in your management uh, philosophy. Do you want to talk to us a little bit about that?

Speaker C: Yeah. So a lot of people talk about work life balance. I like to talk about work life blend. I don't think it's realistic, certainly not for me in the way that I operate in my career to switch off at 5pm and switch back on at 9am but what I do know is that time with family, time with friends and time for self care is incredibly important. So for me what that looks like is I have two sacred hours of the day between 7 um am M and 8am in the morning where we have a healthy breakfast together, walk the dogs and get the kids ready for school including making a healthy lunch from scratch every single day. And then from 6pm to 7pm we all put our devices away, we cook together, we eat together, we tell each other about our days. Trying to get a monosyllabic 13 year old to talk about his day in more than one word is definitely very challenging. But I've learned that those techniques so that's really the um, the foundation and the backbone for me and the why I do what I do. But in addition to that, um, I'm a crazy dog lady. I have two Labradors and a cavoodle in a very small house in Hunters Hill in Sydney. And so obviously spend time exercising them and being involved in them. And then I do enjoy creative pursuits. So I recently designed and built a house um, in Tasmania. And so that was definitely a strong creative of expression for me. Um, and yeah, involve myself in um, art projects but I'm not convinced that they're all that good.

Speaker B: How do you find these, so these creative outlets, this focus on family and health, how are you finding that impacts your ability to drive forward with purpose and to lead a company?

Speaker C: Well I think one of the things that you need in order to lead on the edge and participate on the edge is you need energy and energy um, needs replenishing. And so for me it's about constantly dipping back in to the things that fire my belly, fire my soul, um, and work fires my belly and fires my soul too. Like I love the constant um, intellectual challenge of problem solving. Uh, but I do believe that you need to also take time for, well being, uh, for family, for whatever it is that's important to you so you have that blend and can come back recharged to fight another day, um, you know, the next day.

Speaker B: You know, what's really coming through when I sort of hear you relaying this is, you know, this, this sense of purpose and why you're doing it. And a lot of your conversation, a lot of what you talk about relates back to observations. Your own family and your own life and navigating that change and seeing young uh, people navigating that change and the different paces at uh, which we're doing. How do we get that greater sense of responsibility? I mean, you know, government's there to do it, some industries do it. You're in your industry are leading that, that. How do we take other industries and other leaders in industries on that journey? So as you say, we can collectively look at this massive amount of change that we're going through and help as many people respond to that effectively.

Speaker C: I think one of the key concepts is uh, around agency. I think for a lot of us with this pace of change, we lose uh, a sense of ourselves and control in that environment and we just kind of go along for the ride. I call it being a of part passenger. And so the extent to which we can help support people to develop that sense of agency I think is really important. At a very basic level, it's ensuring technology literacy and making sure that we're uplifting everyone in society to be able to participate in new technologies. And that's still very much a problem from a financial perspective. It's financial inclusion. We still have a significant enough sway that of the population in Australia that doesn't have access to banking services or is underbanked. And I think that that's something that helps give people that sense of agency and that sense that they can make a difference, that what they do do does matter. And so I think for me that's a big focus at the moment is how do we use, you know, blockchain, uh, technology, cryptocurrencies to imbue people with a sense of agency and, and m, uh, in control of their lives. And actually in the driving seat, not just in the passenger seat.

Speaker B: Dare I say it, it's one of the founding principles of this decentralized ledger. Right? Like this sense of empowerment. And it sounds like something that you've really got on board with. I mean in Australia we talk about the digital divide, but fundamentally changing the way that we move money can be A really powerful force. And obviously you see that. How do you uh, apart from all the things that you're doing in your professional life, in your personal life, how does that play out? Is this a barbecue conversation with friends? How does it manifest in that part of your life?

Speaker C: I'm very sad to say it is a barbecue conversation with friends. Not from a financial advice perspective because that's not the business I'm in, but much more from how do I enable and empower them to be able to use, use the technologies to do what they want to achieve. Um, the topic at the moment that keeps coming towards um, me is self managed super funds. And um, again if we go back to that idea of agency, like what is the thing that um, connects all self managed super fund trustees? It's the desire to be in control of how their future retirement savings are invested. And so I think that that's a really interesting sense of, you know, ability to empower what is 25% of Australia's future wealth is held in self managed super funds. And is for me an indication of the extent to which Australians really do want to be masters of their own destiny, not just along for the ride. And so that's an area that's coming a lot, uh, coming up a lot in the topics of conversation.

Speaker B: Fuze. It feels like an idea or a concept whose moment has arrived. You know you talk about, you uh, know, addressing the digital divide, people having control of their own future digital currencies at its core philosophy is all about that. So you know, how, why is it now that you're seeing that growth and that uh, interest in this space?

Speaker C: I think uh, the access and the democratic access to investment opportunities has um, underpinned a lot of the appetite in particular of everyday Australians. One of the things now that you have the opportunity to do is invest in asset classes that were only um, available to institutions or only available to sophisticated investors. And so I think the opportunity to think about diversification of your portfolio has never been greater. And we're seeing the appetite um, in droves in everyday Australians. I mean the numbers vary but it certainly indicative numbers suggest between 30 to 35% of Australians have owned crypto or currently own crypto. And so I think that's uh, a good indication of the appetite that Australians have to be masters of their own destiny.

Speaker B: You know, as Australians and we've touched on this, it feels like we're playing catch up a bit. Do you think we will catch up? And what does it look like when we do catch up? You sort of you know, the research has shown us that that $19 billion annually can be unlocked for the Australian economy. How do we get there faster?

Speaker C: So I think everyday Australians are already there. I think it's the systems that underpin it that are playing catch up. I think that that's the technology systems I've talked about, the regulatory environment, um, so those are really what we need is a systemic shift, uh, in uh, both the technology that underpins the banking infrastructure but also um, the regulatory environment. And I think those two things are the key enablers of what Australians are pulling for and asking for, um, which is agency autonomy and choice in how they manage transfer of value, particularly in

Speaker B: a world of uncertainty, ambiguity and complexity.

Speaker C: Indeed. Absolutely. Absolutely. Dean. Hey Dean. So you've asked me so some big questions about change, risk and opportunity. Is it okay if I flip the script for a second and ask you something?

Speaker B: Please.

Speaker C: So tell me about bulk group, um, and how you're preparing for the future of finance. What does resilience look like to you?

Speaker B: Thanks Kate, that's a great question. Let me answer it with three key points. Technology, security and data. You know, as a fintech focused on solving banking and payment problems, we heavily invest in technology. Central to everything we do is security and keeping money safe. As experienced bankers, we know that trust has to be at the heart of everything we do in every business. Um, but we're really obsessed about data, about knowing our customers, uh, and really doubling down there. So you know, we're continuously applying and refining the latest tools. Not to use the cliches, but at AI, machine learning, telemetry and third party data, we invest in anything that we think will help keep money safe and secure and that removes friction. For example, our transaction monitoring system aggregates traditional transactional payment data across all Rails, augments with elements like IP address, device id, demographic details, and we even leveraged open banking and consumer data rights. So I guess you could say our business is obsessed about using data and about knowing our customers and the balance that we have to get right. And we're continuously focusing on as well what's the right amount of friction. Because people expect that both of our businesses will keep their money safe under, in complex dynamic situations. So there needs to be some friction. Right. Um, so we're always looking about, well, m. How can we use the data? There's a lot of data available. We're in the information age, so we try and collect as much of that as possible and use clever systems and processes to really get that balance right. Which is to say, let's keep the money safe. Let's remove the friction that doesn't need to be there but let's have the right amount of friction so everybody knows that we're serious about keeping the money safe.

Speaker C: It sounds just like exactly the theme I talked about earlier which is the conversion of different technologies and using those for the best possible outcome for the customer and also the system actually. So from a systems perspective what are your reflections on the state of play in the Australian system and kind of what, what next looks like?

Speaker B: Oh, that's a great question. Look, you know we talk about this two speed economy and you've touched on it as well. I think the Australian traditional banking system has caught up a lot and I think that's largely been driven by consumer demand. Um, you and others like you, leaders in industry have helped I believe and um, you know we've called out a date that the government is now getting serious about having appropriate legislation and guardrail. So we know this is the reserve, this is where we operate. So for us I think the role we play is we ourselves innovate quickly and move quickly but we're in a two speed economy with, with others that have um, trust at the core of what they do and, and you know as they say those who like sausages and laws shouldn't watch them being made. And we're really in that process now. Right. The banks and the regulators are changing and that's a laborious process. So what we endeavour to keep doing in that system is let's smooth that transition. Much like yourselves, you know, you're playing a very open leadership and guiding role. We're perhaps a little bit more behind the scenes to try and smooth that transition and make sure that we do respect uh, the regulators, all the ecosystem. Right. So the banking and you know, your answer is banking and um, the digital frontier are coming together. We see that as well. So we want to be a part like yourself to really bring that together and make it smooth and the faster we can do it, the faster we can realize this $19 billion of unrealized value, uh the more people we can bring on that journey which is to make it easy for them but to make them feel secure in doing it. You know when people are investing their life savings they need to feel like and they need to know and understand that it's safe and they're secur and they need to know that the participants, they're working with OKX Australia, the bulk group, that we're serious about this, that we want them to come on that journey and so, um, we have lots of external ways to demonstrate that. There's certifications, there's partnering with the right people, and it's, um, you know, what we're doing right now? Right. Let's get people thinking about it and talking about it because as they become familiar with it, they'll become comfortable with it.

Speaker C: Yeah, sounds great.

Speaker B: Thank you so much, Kate, for sharing your deep insight across multiple continents, multiple industries and multiple disciplines. For those who are interested in hearing more, they can grab tickets to the intersect festival@intersectfestival.com to hear more about what you're seeing in the industry and other leaders from industry have to say about this changing dynamic.

Speaker C: I'm really looking forward to Intersect. I think it's always, um, a great event and bringing together kind of key leaders from across Australia to have really interesting conversations.

Speaker B: So 17th to 18th of September in Melbourne, Grand Hyatt, Intersect Festival. Intersect festival.com I look forward to seeing you there, Kate.

Speaker C: Sounds great, Dean. I'm looking forward to it. It's always a great event every year. Loads of really fascinating, thought provoking sessions, but also really great networking opportunities. So I'm looking forward to it.