S3, EP5: From Career Building to Legacy Leadership: James Mitchell’s Journey to CEO

Do you want to become a CFO and take control of your career? Our podcast series from Go to CFO will give you a unique insight into what it takes to become a successful cfo. Hosted by the three amigos at AXR Recruitment and Search, myself, Greg o' Shea and my colleagues Kunal Gupta and Nick Constain, we speak to inspiring and successful CFOs from our network as they share their career journeys with us. It's the closest thing you're going to get to delving into the mind of a cfo. We hope you enjoy it. Welcome to today's episode of Got a cfo? My name is Nick Constane, Associate Director here at AXR Recruitment and Search. Today we're joined by James Mitchell, a senior finance and executive leader whose career spans professional services, private equity backed environments, large scale property and hospitality businesses and the full journey to CFO through to CEO. James began his career in professional services at Deloitte, building a strong technical and advisory foundation before moving into industry. Over the years he's led complex finance functions, delivered large scale transformations, navigated capital events, trade, sales and private equity ownership, and ultimately stepped into the CEO role, transitioning from functional leadership to full enterprise accountability. In this episode we'll explore James career decisions, the realities of moving from CFO to CEO, how he approaches transformation and value creation, and how senior leaders can think about the next chapter when the market and life shifts. Thank you for joining us James. How are you doing today? Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, great. Thank you so much for coming. I really enjoyed all of our conversations that we've had so far and I think it's a great opportunity for people to get a bit of an insight onto your journey. So I guess to start, where did you grow up? Tell us a little bit about yourself before the professional side. I grew up in Sydney, mainly on or near the water at the beaches. Family. I've got a twin brother and younger sister and we were active all the time down to the beach, sailing, fishing, doing, never really hanging out and having a chance to misbehave but always doing something. Used to love interacting with people but also sports. Found out I was competitive, learned how to win but also how to lose but also got very comfortable with myself. I used to enjoy fishing so time by myself and doing so I got to know myself well and really then followed a career that was natural to my mathematical mind as such rather than humanistic mind mind and ended up in accounting. Yeah. And so tell me about your, I guess a high level overview of Your career so people get a better understanding of what that means. Yeah, career started early. I came straight out of school and did a cadetship. So full time work and university at night. Great technical knowledge and skills and leadership. I was at Deloitte's. It's a large firm that gives you the training for progression but also gives you the softer skills that came through. Started in business services, moved up into tax on the back of some good PY results and then over to London. Great experience, great opportunity with those firms. London was a bit of a holiday, bit of fun. Left chartered and went out into the large international banks. Financial services in London. Bit of a gun for hire. Did projects change implementation before moving back to Australia. Made the decision that Australia was where I wanted to have family and grow up or had my kids grow up. Moved into financial control and management accounting. Found that I had to re establish myself back in Australia. Time away, had lost contacts, had lost networks, but ended up back in financial services. I was with JP Morgan and Deutsche Banks for a period of time. Their career progression was out of Sydney, up into Hong Kong and Singapore. That didn't match with where I wanted my family to be going at the time. Either about to get married or have my first child and so said no to those opportunities. Which was unfortunate because I'd progressed up into the sexier side of accounting. The business partnering, the support of businesses, particularly at JP Morgan CFO for their Asia operations as they really had to change what they were doing. It was a time of onshoring and offshoring, but buying and selling businesses that was going on. So disappointed to leave that and then moved into Westpac. Large organization, different culture. Moved into a group accounting services, so looking after a team of 150 plus. But it was scale, it was daily transactional, monthly close, half yearly close, auditing, reporting, which kind of sounds dull, but the scale of that team was great. The other thing about it was that when I went in, it was time of significant change through implementing afrs, implementing the initial submarines, Oxley controls and then attestation. Once you end up in those large organizations, you get a bit of track record, you get your proof, you get to know the people around and that allowed me to bounce around a little bit. I ended up doing a global best practice, Deloitte's consulting for the best way to set up Westpac's finance model going forward. I went and supported a business getting ready for an IPO and then the IPO and then the separation of that ipo. I was at Westpac at this Time as the GFC arrived at BT Funds Management and how did they have to respond back to that? And then there was the merger with St. George and Westpac and it was doing the financial integrations of their ERP for the wealth or the management accounting systems that they were bringing. All great learnings and experiences that came through. So really enjoyed that period of time. Then got a tap on shoulder to go to Aussie home Loans. Different role again it was working in the business and on the business. There was a liquidity event that was possible when I was going in, that materialized and we had to corporatize the entire entity ready for a listing as such or possible listing. We didn't do the listing, we did a trade sale out to cba. So it's getting the due diligence ready, getting the data ready, getting the financial integrity, but getting the stories ready of what the business was going to do and where the value came through. Then it was the DD with CBA transaction, separation and merger into into cba. At that statement, Aussie becomes a much simpler business. The treasury is different, the funding's different, the financial control is different, stakeholders are different. So I left that and went out to a new industry again still financial services, but debt collecting acor. I went in as cfo, possible successor to the CEO and successfully did that. It was a great journey. Went in, rectified the finance but then whole business wide business transformation. The business was in a downward spiral. We turned that round, became sustainable, positive cash flow, positive earnings. It was PE backed and then it became international US company backed. And it was values, missions, IT people, everything was. Was fantastic. Unfortunately being part of a US multinational at the end there their strategy changed. They had been global expansion to focus on the US and Europe. So got asked to do a trade sale and then successfully completed a trade sale. Took longer than I thought it was. It was about a year trade sale of all up, getting ready for it and then coming out. Finished up just before COVID perhaps no roles out there, but I got an opportunity to spend some time with family, but also to dabble. I went off and did startups, ERP implementation, advising and so on, et cetera with a number of different places which was fantastic. That started opening up again on the back of networks where people saying I've got an opportunity, a role. I went and did a rectification of an EMP ERP implementation that had gone wrong at an engineering services firm. Then I went into Maryville, which was my step into hospitality. They had really been hit hard with loss of IP in their financial control area. They would struggled on closing their accounts, getting the order across the line and making sure the bank covenants worked. So I went in and rectified that. That was a step into hospitality which allowed me to step into my last role which was Red Cape Hospitality Group. It's a retail wholesale fund. It's part of the MA Financial Group as an asset manager. And I went in there or started there before the economic world had changed. Interest rates of were lower, cost of living hadn't hit and there was a exponential growth path of significantly uplifting over a five year period. When I arrived, however, interest rates went up. Input inflation was going through the roof. We had to rectify and solve a number of operational challenges, but financial challenges within the group. We had to redo the bank covenants, we had to close the fund and we were getting a run on the fund. We had to pull costs out, we had to optimize operations. We were selling assets and then we rectified it and we started acquiring assets. We were starting to get 20% growth year on year started coming through but a very different journey than what I'd expected when I'd gone in. It's now a simplified area. We've put a new finance ERP in, we've moved finance to Manila, got a new risk management framework and the business growth is much more stable. Which then meant that simplified role CFO was made redundant. I am now in between roles and looking for my next opportunity. Yeah and I think there's so much to go out so I'm just going to start at the beginning because it just makes it easier. But I think, I guess. Did you always know that you wanted to be a cfo? Is that from the beginning when you first started? What did success look like in your mind? I guess at that point? No, I didn't and I don't think you can. I think you're only aware of what you're aware of. I went in really not knowing that I even wanted to be an accountant. I think I've been very fortunate that actually I can do it. I've enjoyed it and I've seen the variety that comes from it. But when I went in I was just an accountant doing a job originally perhaps the first part was to go to London, go overseas as chartered and then since then, as you get to see more opportunities and get to see what the role can become, you start expanding what it looks like. I would have gone early days success was are you retiring at 40 now? I don't think that is success. I think now success is, you know, what can you give back? What are you contributing? How can you make a difference for years to come? Yeah. So I think it changes as you learn more. Yeah. And I think the theme that's come up in our, in lots of our conversations was there's this natural curiosity or urge to learn more or just not wanting to stand still. Where do you think you got that from? Do you think that started in your non. In your personal life, I guess. Or was it more as you got in through the different businesses, you realized there's just so much you can go at. Like I think it was probably through the business rather than personal life. I think I had a drive that you can get stuck and. Or bored. Accounting is not potentially the most interesting job. You can get bored doing the role. And it was more a drive to be interested, to be engaged. That came through. And that exposure becomes addictive. You start wanting more and learning more and seeing more. I think I've been very fortunate to work in organizations and with people who show you different ways of looking at things and all of a sudden you just start wanting to be that sponge, to adopt that once you've adopted your technical and your leadership in the people skills. One of the things that I have found that I enjoy and hence today perhaps is to actually mentor and coach and develop others. And once you've learned things, you can start giving it back. I think it started at the large chartered firm. You know, you come in, I came in as a school leaver. I knew nothing. My career progression was development, learning and so on, et cetera. You come out as a manager. That's the path they put you on. And that desire of growth and that learning, I think has just extended out. Yeah. And would you say that that was the first kind of big decision that kind of changed your trajectory in terms of where your career went? No. I think the couple of big decisions on trajectory was the one coming back to Australia. As to that, I had to re. Establish myself. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah. And it was the right decision. It was a family decision that came through. But I think the big decision that kept reoccurring along those ways was I was, as I said, doing international investment banks. Their career prior out of Australia is up into Hong Kong, Singapore or Tokyo. I got offered a role into Tokyo, Asia, cfo, outside of the GM of Asia. It's a great role. The decision not to do it was quite hard. And the decision not to do it was because of the balance with family and where I wanted My life and everything else. To go to that trajectory of balancing that out was hard. The trajectory of growth was actually taking the risk of going to westpac. That was where it transformed. Yeah, that makes total sense because I guess if you followed the linear path, you just think, move to Asia, just keep on going where then you have to kind of make that pivot and find your feet in a company where is very well documented. You can make your own journey. You know, it's. There's so much to go out in a place like Westpac. It's almost like choose your own adventure to some degree. Look, I went into Westpac, I went into the Group Mechanic Services scale, 150 people. And it was perhaps a step back into financial control change as opposed to the sexy business support strategy. But it wasn't right. You prove yourself, you learn and you do. And again, that bedrock of what I achieved at westpac, you then transfer across to the other things that you do. I got exposed to systems, global best practices, ERP limitations, gfc, an ipo and I wouldn't have got that anywhere else. And that engagement and the people was fantastic. Yeah, fantastic. And so what is your value proposition? I guess, what are you known for? If, if, if I were to contact any of the previous people that you've come in contact with, what would they say? Look, I think I do a couple of things, but I believe I do transformation for growth. It's kind of a value proposition. I think that's got to come with a humanity side, down to earth, but really good with stakeholders and bringing other people on the journey to, to create that opportunity. Yeah. And where do you think that interest or experience with transformation really kicked off? It started early. I would say it starts at small steps before you start come running. It's change. The difference of transformation to change is, is the extent of what it is and how big that becomes. I was lucky, I got thrown into it. The opportunity or the, or the burning platforms arrived where you had to do something and then the change becomes more encompassing, cultural shifting, etc. That comes through, but it's back on the experience. Right. If you hadn't have done the small changes or the small projects, then you wouldn't have been able to go into the transformations. Once you've done that, it's just a natural extension. Yeah. And so what does that actually mean in practice in terms of systems capability, cadence, culture, defining outcomes? How do you set the tone for a change transformation program like that? I think transformation, the difference between what a transformation really is a mindset You've got to realize that your current position is unsustainable. You have to be going, I have to become something different at the end of this outcome. And I think that once you've got that, you then start componentizing it and going, well, maybe it's just lots of little changes that come through. So you've got to get your objective, your vision that's coming through. You've got to get a buy in that you're going to go and do it. And then it becomes all encompassing. It's every part of an organization, it's changing. And I think that the extent of what that looks like to get the outcome changes, but I think it comes from the people, right? It's the culture. You will change it either during the transformation or it will be different at the end. The processes, the systems, the cadence, everything will be different at the end. And if you're lucky, right, you get a transformation, it's successful and you go on and get the reward that comes out on the back of it. But it is significant change in organization. It's not just continuing improvement, it's not just change. Yeah. And I guess from the people or human element side of this, how do you align people onto this journey when everyone knows exactly what you just said, like this is just not going to be the same place in 12 months. How do you get people comfortable with the unknown? I'm just curious on how you do that. I think it's actually very hard. I think there's a reason that the organization is where it is today and that is because of the people who were there. So to change the people and their thoughts as to actually we have to change is a start and, or make it so that it's safe and the unknown disappears out of it. And as I said, it's lots of little steps and I think everyone contributes to those changes. But I think you've got to have the objective and the vision of where you're going to so that you can hold yourself and the teams and everyone else accountable for what you're delivering to and try and take that ambiguity or the risk or the unknown out. But there will always be some and I think myself for that curious mind and that learning and others, you can really appeal to people. And if you can get the staff engaged, that they will get something out of it, that they will grow and sure there's a risk at the end of it, but they will come out better out of it at the end, then you can get some momentum that comes through. It's Hard work and you need that momentum from an organization to get there. Otherwise you're just dragging. Yeah. And I'm curious, looking up, I guess from CEO and board, when you want to do these large scale changes, how do you interact with the board to that degree? Because I think that's actually almost more difficult to some degree. I think it's different. I think CFO or CEO interaction with investors, board or founders, you've got to be able to tell a story from the facts and getting them to buy into your story or the vision that's there now, I believe you've got to get them engaged and them to own that story and the output of where it comes. And that is a lot of influencing a lot of discussions about where you are, but also where you go and why you've got to change and that opportunity that comes from it. I think most investors, boards up at that level are willing for those conversations and are after that value creation exercise. You've just got to be able to convince them that what you're proposing and what they're doing is the right outcome and then they become your backers or in some situations you can get to the stage well then demanding the change that comes through and again that changes it from a push pull to a pull. So it's much easier once you've got them on board, once you've started or perhaps the start of the program, the part that takes that engagement. After that, you've got to hold yourself accountable, they have to hold you accountable and that's that transparency. And not everything's going to go well and there's some hard journeys and hard things that come out of these. But you've got to be honest and transparent, have your integrity with your investors, the board, CEO, founders, so that they know they can trust you and go through because there will be mistakes along the way and they've got to accept and take that with you before you get the reward out the end. Yeah. And I guess on a slight differentiating topic here, but just to talk a little bit about kind of maybe one of the trade sales or one of the transactions that you went through, how do you go about executing everything that needs to happen when maybe only three or four people in the room know what's going on? Yeah, that's tricky. I mean Ozzy is an example. I think I said I worked in the business and on the business there were very few people who knew the extent of the on that we were doing with getting the business ready, what the story was and what we were doing. And in contrast to that, the rest of the business is out trying to be as nimble or as entrepreneurial as it was before. So there were decisions that we were making up at the top level, that is whether we're putting a new product in or what the price was going to be or where we were setting up a store that on the face of it weren't making a lot of sense because we were saying yes or no to decisions, but we were making them in line of, you know, that end outcome of what you're after. So you do get a separation of what's going on. You've got to be very mindful of that separation and I think you've got to be able to accept that that is going to cause some angst within an organization. I think what you've got to do in general is have built your stakeholders, your engagement across all the time. So even if you're making those decisions, you're not ostracizing or putting off your business. That's still going on because it's got to run. The deal might not happen. You've still got to have your business going correct. And that's the balance that I'm curious about because it's. The business has to function. Business has to function. And if they see this big separation between the actions of the four or five people who know what's going on and the rest of the business, then there's a bit of a gap that needs to be addressed to some degree. 100%, there's privacy and parts of these things where deals go wrong if things leak and come out into the market the wrong way. I was doing a deal where it was very isolated of what was going on. We had got to documents signed, theoretically money transferring and it was a listed. We were very mindful of how that broke and there was a few of us who knew and we weren't meant to tell anyone. We found out that in another office someone had gone and told the team because they wanted to be that nice person. We called the entire team into the boardroom and locks the boardroom down. And theoretically the money was meant to arrive like half an hour later. Money hadn't arrived for four hours. We were walking them backwards and forwards to the toilet, getting them lunch and so on, etc. Because we couldn't have a break. So you've got to be mindful of how that's really interesting and, but even, and forgive my, my ignorance here, when you mean, when you say break, do you mean basically we can't get to contain the information at that stage until the account money hits the accounts. Then your listed company, it's got to come out. They make the announcement to their investors first. Correct. We couldn't come out and leak it now, whether that would have blown the deal up or not, who knows? But deals break because of leaks or so on. And so we were containing that. Now, it's not exactly what you're talking about of working, but that was a point in time. Yeah. That's fascinating. That's absolutely fascinating. And so in your experience at Bay Corp, when you. You were cfo, and then you said in your introduction here that you then seceded into the CEO, can you tell us about that transition, what that was like? Look, it was fantastic. I had thought that I had breadth and depth coming up from CFO. I had been the 2IC to the CEO. I knew everything was going on. But you get into the seat and you realize there is so much more. They are very distinct roles, and there is just so much more that comes at you. You're thinking all the time about opportunities, risks, divestments. But more important, I think from the CEO seat, you're thinking about the team and the culture of that organization and how you get the team of everyone pursuing your goal of what you get to. And that's the big difference of what. What's coming through. The surprise that I found of becoming CEO, and I had been told this by my predecessor, when you become CEO, your role or connection with the organization changed. For me, it feels like it's yours. You own it. You really are engaged into it. It's not a role anymore. It's part of it. And that engagement continues even when you left. I feel very much part of that family of the Bay Corp team and what it looks like. And I think that connection really surprised me. Yeah, that's amazing. And so I guess from the CEO's view, what was it like letting go of the CFO responsibilities? It's an interesting question. I got that question when I was going for the role. I got the question. I got some mentoring and support when I became the CEO and my global chair was asking the same question. It wasn't hard for me. I had understood the finances and I knew what was going on. And I had a very good successor back into the CFO role. But I knew what I wanted into that role. So that was an easy fill. The hard pit wasn't letting go, therefore, of the CFO function. It's all of a sudden you're CEO and you own everything. The Hard part wasn't jumping into every other area, whether it was CIO or people, et cetera, because I've always liked and wanted to do more. And all of a sudden it was mine. Well, it wasn't mine. It was still the experts who were running it. And the CEO role is the leadership and the managing of those people rather than diving into it. So it was holding myself out of the other areas up at the right level was the challenging part. That'd be fascinating because I guess you're having a very dynamic conversation, going from chief marketing to people to tech, and you kind of need to know how far you want to go down into the weeds. Unless there's a serious catastrophic issue, I guess. Then you get right down into it. Yeah, that's exactly it. Right. And particularly for me with that curiosity, you know, I wanted to get into the weeds and I wanted to do. And I had a view and so on, et cetera. But so too did that other leader. And it was tapping into and having conversations with that leader so that you agree of where you're going and then how they going to go and do it. Did the interaction with the board change? Yeah, I think it does. CFO is an advisor, an influencer, trusted partner to the board and again into the investors. I think the CEO is much closer to the board, certainly reports to the board, does the strategy with the board and et cetera. And it's a different dynamic of what you're talking about and what's coming through. I think the CFO is more that control, the protector, making sure everything's right, holding yourself accountable, holding others accountable, whereas the CEO is more, where's the vision, where's the opportunities, perhaps? Where are the risks, what's going on in the people? So your dynamic of the conversation changes and your engagement level perhaps changes as well. The boards are more peers per se, and I think the CFO is still reporting in a little bit more to the board than a CEO. Yeah, I agree with that. That's interesting to take. Yeah. And what I'd like to do in this part of the podcast, if you don't mind making a little bit of a shift here, but just kind of reflecting a little bit back on and maybe going back to the mentoring side of this and asking kind of your thoughts on. We often say, or I often say, that the path to CFO is not linear. It's not. You hop on the escalator and go straight. So there's lots of different ways to get there. What would be your advice for people who have not made it to the CFO seat who want to. What would you suggest they do to access that level? I guess look, I don't think it is linear. I've been fortunate accounting linear type of thing. But the path within that, within accounting and within CFO goes anywhere and everywhere. And you look at the people who are CFOs, it's not linear. The challenge I think for anyone who's after those roles is get the expertise, get your breadth of experience, become a knowledge of whatever else is going on in your business, but push yourself up into as if you were acting as the cfo. Don't become I'm after a role and it's a development step already. Be there already be doing the things that you can do. If that starts becoming too much or too narrow within your organization, then go and expand out. Go and have a look at what's going on in people or operations or risk and go get some of those skills that come through but don't settle. And I think part of a CFO's role is to see where an organization is going to and where those opportunities and what it looks like. You should be forming that view of your career and what it looks like. And if you're going, well, I want to be the cfo, but the person in front of you has just got there and they're not likely to leave, then you should be able to work out yourself that that's not the path and go and explore other paths. So be willing to take the risk, put yourself out there, go do the work, but be ready for it. Don't go, I'll step into CFO and then learn it. Try and be there beforehand. And do you think or do you have a view on which if I was in, let's say I'm in a GM finance in a division or whatever it was. Do you have a view on which other functional leadership role I should be most involved with? And as an example, am I best? Do you think working with the COO and saying hey, how can I support you best? Or the CIO for is that just dependent on the skill set or what do you think? On what do you actually think? It kind of depends on the company that you're in or the industry that you're in. I think finance is a back office kind of role and if you spend a lot of time in the back office role, so you go CIO risk or people, you can still be in the back office side. I would try and get into the front of the business. So operations Sales go really understand what's going on out in, what's driving the revenue streams and the value that's coming from the business. Because if as you step up, it's those relationships that you start building on. And I think some of them are natural to do and easy to do, but the big opening is out into the broader business. Yeah. Okay. And so when you were going through this journey and before you got your first cfo, did you. Were you a career planner? Like, did you think about how to get. If that. If you accepted this role, then that could line you up because ultimately you want to get somewhere? Or was it more? No, it's kind of luck, I guess, but I didn't plan it. I don't think you can. I think what you do, though, is you've got to be real and aware of where you are, where your gaps are, where your learnings are, and then look at what are the next steps and where are those gaps and how to close them if. If you're doing and closing those things. The part that I found was that curious mind or the, that development push of taking on the projects, taking on the risk, putting yourself out there for an upside, and that opens up. But be aware and look, don't just sit there and stagnate. Otherwise you can do something and I've done it right. You can sit in a company and be very comfortable, but at some stage you've got to look at yourself and go, oops, I should be progressing. Am I progressing? Where to? That's the next question that comes from it. Yeah, absolutely. So looking back, what advice would you give your younger self before starting this journey? I think it's pretty clear I've had a great career and enjoyed where I've got to. The thing that I think I've probably missed and I would like to have done better is networking. Understand what that really means. When I was younger, I thought that was going out for drinks or interacting with people. I think actually what it is is building connections and connections who you can stay in touch with and you can share your experiences and go on a journey with people. And the broader that is, the more opportunities of roles or connections or knowledge you can get from people. And I don't think I did that well. When I went overseas, I lost contact. I was gone for a number of years. I lost contact with most people in Australia. When I came back, I worked for large international American banks or international bank and even to Westpac to an extent. And I didn't broaden out the connections within the Australian Sydney market. And that's, I think, something that I've missed. I've picked it up, but it's still a missed opportunity. Yeah, I think maybe from my, I think from my perspective, I think it's getting easier to stay connected than it was back then. Like, I think now technology allows you, technology gives you the platform to be able to just shoot a LinkedIn message. Hey, I haven't seen you in 15 years. Like, know, how are you doing? Well, I'm doing that now and technology changes so fast and I'm not that old, but, you know, when I left Australia, I left with handwritten everyone's address and I was sending postcards or letters by the time I'd got to the uk, although Internet and emails were in existence by the time I got. I threw the book out because everyone was on email. LinkedIn didn't exist, WhatsApp didn't exist, and so on, et cetera. So now it is a much smaller and easier connect world. But I think just the way that people communicate and interact is a lot easier to do that. Non face to face now. Yeah. And what do you think is the best career advice that you've received from a mentor? I was lucky. Years ago, I was comfortable in a role back before I went to the uk. My boss knew that I was interested in the uk, but I'd been comfortable in working and performing. He took me aside and he said, look, I need to know what you're going to do. I'm going to promote you, but I don't want you to leave after I promoted you or leave. And so we had the discussion as to what it was. What he pushed me to realize and advised and got into was, take the risk, go and do it. That's what you wanted. Stop procrastinating, stop being comfortable, Put yourself out there to go do it and be resilient of whatever it's going to look like. Enjoy the journey. That's a great piece of advice. I think we interview quite a lot of people who are comfortable in their jobs, who they're only looking because we kind of tap them up and they said, yeah, I look at stuff, but I'm really comfortable and I don't really want to leave. And then after you unpick it all, you realize they actually really need to leave. And it's often underestimated how important that change and being uncomfortable makes you grow. And so on the reverse side of that, you mentioned, do you enjoy mentoring? How does that look like for you previously and currently? What does that mean? To you? Look, I've found a natural desire to do it. Maybe it started from the chartered firms where you get promoted and you're bringing everyone else up. I think it's the connection with the individual. And it's not formal, it's informal. It's just conversations about where are people going and the sort. I had a conversation with a mentor, now cfo, who was doing a FP and a role, and he thought that was it and was looking at going, doing something else. After conversations, he came back and he said, I never realized what the CFO role was. I want that. So it's making people aware and it's those conversations. I think you can only do it with someone who wants to do it if they're not wanting to do it. I don't get the engagement of trying to drag someone, but if someone wants to do it and someone's hungry, I'll absolutely spend time with them. Yeah, that's fantastic. I think that's interesting. And that brings me kind of to my next question about defining success and thinking what that, what that looks like. Has that changed for you over time? It does. It has. It changes as your perspective of life changes. I think success when I started my career was early retirement out at 40. That's no longer success. I think success becomes more rounded. It's not just career, it's what are you doing with your family, what are you doing with life? And as I've progressed through the opportunity of learning, being engaged, giving back, committed, enjoying what's going out, I can't say that ending. And I really enjoy that my life is now that my kids have left home and I'm expanding conversations of, well, do we go and live and work in Asia and back into London? They're exciting conversations that changed and they weren't there five years ago, 10 years ago. And how do you balance that personal side? Is there plan of, are you a weekly planned guy or how do you manage your personal and your professional. I'm very lucky. My family and career and like has been a partnership. I think it has to be and I think it has to balance out. So that has allowed me to go and pursue a career and do these things and know that I've got the support at home. The opportunity of how do you plan that, I think becomes perhaps, you know, business terms, it's tactical or strategic. Tactically, short term. I know I can go and do and commit to work and do the hard yards or hours or what needs to be done strategically. However, I know that I've Got to fit that. And I've made choices to make it fit within family. Whether it's back in Australia or not over to Asia or the sort, or be at home for the kids, you've got to be able to juggle those. And in any case, you're always going to get a curveball. Whether it's family or work or deal or something, that's going to come through. You've got to be able to juggle that. And at times you're going to feel a stress of that because that's just natural, because it's out of it. But you can't have stress all the time. It's got to balance out and have a cycle for you. Yeah. And I think that balance is always like, how do you keep your family life, your personal life, and then the unknown that comes and hits you when you're not ready for it. And we've talked about that previously, and I think that when it's all in sync and you're humming, you know that that's a pretty unique time, actually. There's always something happening. Yeah. It keeps you alive. It's engaging. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Perfect. If you could give one piece of advice to someone who's currently a CFO and has an interest in becoming a CEO, what would that be? Yeah. The advice is the CEO role is much broader than it appears, the cfo, and therefore try and get exposure to as much as you possibly can. As we were saying, it's operations, it's the board, it's stakeholders, it's everyone. You can get that breadth of experience that comes through because that's what you'll be using. And it's your softer skills, it's your leadership, it's the stakeholder management, it's the negotiations that comes through. And I think that those skills, you just keep developing and building it as you go. I think the other thing is, as the cfo, you've got to want it. Like, CFO is a great role. And it's interesting, Right. You don't have to do it, but. But if you want it, then put yourself out and start doing some of those things. Go to the road shows, go to the investors, go to the boards, go and see some of the stakeholders, go to the operations, go and do some of those things, so you get the experience to it so that it naturally flows through. Yeah, that's fantastic advice. James, thank you so much for your time today. It's been really nice talking to you and thank you very much. Pleasure. Thanks for tuning in and we hope you enjoy the insights from our network of inspiring finance leaders as they share their journey from Go to CFO if you're looking to make the next move in your finance career or build your team, get in contact with the team at AXR Recruitment and Search today. We are passionate about building careers, not jobs, teams, not just hires. If you enjoyed the episode, hit the like button and subscribe today. See you next time.