S3, EP4: From Advisor to Decision Maker: Chris Allenby’s Leap into the CFO Seat

Do you want to become a CFO and take control of your career? Our podcast series from Go to CFO will give you a unique insight into what it takes to become a successful cfo. Hosted by the three amigos at AXR Recruitment and Search, myself, Greg o' Shea and my colleagues Kunal Gupta and Nick Constain, we speak to inspiring and successful CFOs from our network as they share their career journeys with us. It's the closest thing you're going to get to delving into the mind of a cfo. We hope you enjoy it well. Welcome to today's episode of Go to cfo. My name is Nick Constein, Associate Director here at AXR Recruitment and Search. Today we're joined by Chris Allenby, CFO at Lewisland, one of Australia's largest privately owned property groups. Chris's career began at KPMG as a cadet at just 18 and making it to partner by 32. Over his 12 years as a partner, he advised private and mid cap listed companies based on family businesses and high net worth individuals across a broad range of industries with a particular strength in property. In March 2020, at the onset of COVID Chris stepped into the CFO role at Lewisland. Since then he has navigated the transition from chartered accounting into a high network family group environment, shifting from advisor to decision maker while reshaping finance, strengthening culture through decisive hiring and balancing creativity with accountability within what he describes as a true collective. In this episode we'll explore that mindset shift the realities of leading in a private family business, how Chris continually evaluates his own skillset and his teams, and what resilience and leadership looks like in a period of rapid change. Thank you for joining us. How are you doing today? I'm great. Thank you for the warm introduction. It's great to have you. I know we met in December. It's taken a little bit of calendar gymnastics to get this in line, but thank you very much for your time. I was really keen to get your story out there. I feel like sometimes as we were just talking about, I guess you don't even realize what you've been through and what you didn't think. It's a really good moment of reflection. So to kick things off, do you want to just tell us a little bit about your life before your professional life? Yeah, sure. I grew up in the south of Sydney, so in a little suburb called Ingadine, which funny enough is named by the explorer because it reminded him of some magnificent valley in Switzerland. And I've been around ingadine for 45 years and I can't yet see the similarity. Yeah. But it's a great. It was a great place to grow up. And I was the oldest. I am the oldest of five sons. You know, really loving, supportive parents. And, yeah, I grew up. You know, I love school. I just loved it while my kids don't love it. That's another. That's another conversation. I love sport. So, like cricket and, you know, soccer and tennis and, you know, anything with stats and so just the fusion of just like sport and numbers. Yeah. And I was just reflecting. I was sort of really into both and so not a cool guy, but not a. Not a geek, but somewhere in the middle there. How good was the Australian Open? Oh, yeah, it was phenomenal. I'm such a massive tennis fan as well. And I love all the. The data and the analytics behind it. Exactly. It's such a clever way of examining, like, what objectively seems as not that statistically challenging. We watched Moneyball the other day. Oh, yeah. You know, you rewatch these movies. So good. Yeah. And just about stats and, you know, leading into teams and things, I guess. You know, My initials are C.A. so, like, I was destined to, like, either join Cricket Australia or be a chartered accountant. Like one or the other. It's one or the other. It's in the name. So, yeah, I had a great childhood and then was fortunate to, you know, start a career, really, with a really good education and. And loving family. Yeah. That's fantastic. And so then what was it like stepping into KPMG as such a kind of young guy in such a developed accounting world, you know, what did that look like for you? Yeah, well, it was early 1994, so the world was a different place. And, you know, you hear your parents talk about 17% interest rates and we're sort of in that world, but it wasn't really daunting at all. I remember being really excited because the firms really invested in cohorts of, you know, young kids. So many were 17, some were 18. There was a group of 30. And it was a real investment. Investment into them. So you were sort of together. You know, you're part of a tribe and, you know, to be honest, they're still my tribe. I think there's three left in my tribe at KPMG still or Global Partners of, you know, some division doing really well. But, yeah, people go off and do different careers and aren't accountants and. But, yeah, there's that real bond that you have, which, you know, it's a shame the Firms don't still do that because technology's evolved and a lot of work is either outsourced or sort of data driven now. But. Yeah, I love the. But I could see like you're being in the trenches with your team. Yeah. And then all of a sudden that's bond that's forged that you can't replicate force. No, that's right. It's a really interesting experience. Yeah. And what was that like for you? I guess when you started, did you always have in mind aiming for partner or was that something that over time you got, oh, now I have an actual real shot at this or a little bit of both. Yeah, I, I always wanted to be one. Yeah. Yeah. Because I just saw, you know, the guys and they were guys, to be. To be brutally honest, in the early 90s. Yeah, of course it was a different world and thank God it's changed and, and different. But yeah, I just wanted to do it and I saw what they did and working with clients and I just thought that was you, what I was there for. So there wasn't. Yeah, it was sort of. It wasn't something that I put a plan in place or anything like that. I just knew I wanted to be one. Yeah. And also I was lucky enough to join the firm, you know, I think a couple of years later. Yeah, that's fantastic. And so I would talk about your journey to partner because it's fairly uncommon to become partner at 32. Yeah. So what was that like? What do you think you did that differentiated yourself from others? Yeah, I think a couple of things. So one, having a really great sponsor, you can't do it. Like you need a senior person to sponsor you. And I was lucky. I had this, this guy who was, you know, as I was coming to partnership, he was on the retirement path. So there was kind of a natural path and we were from, you know, opposite worlds, but actually had a lot of similar values. And he just helped me through and pushed me into places that were uncomfortable. So I think having a sponsor, hard work, like you got to take opportunity. Yeah. Like you just got to. And I think luck. So I became a partner in 2008 and six weeks later, I think was Lehman Brothers. Right. So Bear Stearns. That was like around October. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember having the pen then on my very first audit opinion As a young 32 year old auditor, like the day after Lehman's went down, I was like, am I signing this or not? Yeah. You know, so it was, yeah, it was, it was quite a time. But I guess Luck. Right. You know, because the next year, they didn't make any partners or not many. So timing, you know, you can't predict. Things happen. But, yeah, it just happens in your career. It's a bit of foreshadowing to your next move. Another big global event happened. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's pretty funny. And, but so named partner, you're starting that. How do you establish credibility with colleagues, clients, you know, being at your age, where maybe people would view you as too young to some degree. Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't really know it at the time, but looking back. Yeah, you're too young. Like, I was too young. But, you know, people had faith and could see that they wanted to invest in young people like me, but I think I just kept doing what I was doing. There's no reason to change who you are or your values just because you become a partner. I do remember Facebook came around the time, and my followers went from 800 to 200 overnight. That's hilarious. No one wants to be friends with a partner on Facebook in the early days. Yeah. Yeah. So things do change, but I thought you just got to be the same. You just get found out. Sure. I guess on reflection, you know, the youth side, I mean, I had and have imposter syndrome. Right. You know, and it's very common out there in business. You know, someone's going to tap you on the shoulder and, you know, are you really the right person for this job? Yeah. And so you're always sort of working with that and conscious of it, and you build strategies over time. But, yeah, I definitely had that. I was then partners with. With, you know, icons of the firm. Sure. You know, and then you're the same. You're in the peer group. Yeah. And he's 55, and you're 32, and no, you're not. You're different. But, yeah, you worked through that, and, yeah, I'm glad I did. Any kind of key moments in your time at KPMG that really had a big impact on your career trajectory? Yeah, probably. I think three come to mind that I've reflected on. The first is, you know, before you could become a manager, and you've been there a couple of years, and in my group, you know, with that sponsor that I mentioned, you know, there was me and two other assistant managers, and they resigned on the same day. And, you know, and the. The guy, he just, well, all right, it's all yours, and you just got to grab it. So, you know, the alternate was, oh, this is too hard. And I'm going to. But I could see the opportunity and. And then got to work with the bigger clients and, you know, spend more time with that partner and, and his director. And yeah, I think that was a pivotal moment. Moment for me. And it was around then he sort of said, you know, we can get you to partner. And you know, I might have been 25, 26, like really young. Yeah. Wow. And then, you know, when I became a part, moment was joining another group of partners that I really respected and were a bit older than me and forming a new group was sort of an offshoot of an existing group within the firm, focused on privates and families and high net worth individuals that we thought was sort of being under resourced and that sort of bonded us. Like I was talking about being in the trenches as a kid. We were then in the trenches as young partners and trying to make something work. Yeah. And they gave us, they could see it and they gave us an older partner as a sort of a mentor and like, we really thrived. It was hard, but yeah, just helping build something I think was something momentous. And thirdly, it was kind of the opposite is the, you know, difficult and more challenging part in my career was, you know, at a time when, you know, I had issues with the regulator and, you know, investigating my work and, you know, the firm's work and responses to various pieces and, you know, all sorts of emotions from, you know, daunted and, you know, terrified and of course, and you know, uncertain about the future future. And you got to go through those things. Those things happen. And maybe not to the extent that I experience, but things happen. It's not perfect. So I think it really gave me that opportunity to be resilient and realize the sun comes up every day and surround myself with great positive people. But yeah, I always feel that you learn most when it's getting really hard as opposed to when everything's going and you're kicking goals, then all of a sudden do you have a big hiccup? That's a real moment of just buckling down and believing in yourself and just going and just persevering, I guess. Absolutely. Like my journey to partner was just straight. Right. I don't know why, but it just happened. All the boxes got ticked and I didn't really have a challenge. And so actually becoming a partner was actually more relief than excitement. And I at the time thought, that's actually not why am I feeling this? It should be more exciting. But it was more relief because it sort of put the pressure on myself. But I hadn't had those sort of horizontal experiences where things don't go to plan and you've got to, you've got to find a different way and navigate. And that's been a big lesson, especially where I am now at Lewisland in a much smaller team and less opportunity and seeing really good people navigate horizontally to go vertical. Yeah, I guess that would bring a good segue into how did you end up at Lewisland? What was that journey like? Why Lewisland? Yeah, well, Lewisland was a long term client of our group in KPMG in the private space and some of my colleagues and a former partner and a really good mate of mine, Matt McCarron had moved to be the CFO. He was a partner with us and he' moved and then, you know, fate happens and he, he becomes the CEO and it's a great story. Well, I like it. He, he said, called me for breakfast and he said, oh, I need a cfo. Can you help me write a job description? And so we met for breakfast and I helped him. He was a young, younger guy and I guess he saw in me someone a bit older that could, he could talk to. And so we wrote it out and then that was 55 minutes of the 60 minute breakfast. And then he just turned to turn the bit of paper around and he said, well, when do you start? And we sort of, sort of co created the role together and this was all in the background of COVID sort of bubbling away. Bubbling away. And so, you know, a bit of back and forth and I, I joined and I just got married. And so it was on my honeymoon and we're in the States flying back, masks on the whole thing. And I started the next day. March. In March. Yeah, yeah. It was the day the lockdown, I would imagine the day of. Oh wow. The day the Prime Minister got up and said, you're all working at home. We're at home for six months. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So it was a way to start. It was amazing. Yeah, amazing. And so what was that like? I mean, you have to start learning basically. You've never worked in a commercial environment outside of your role. Yeah. Like what was that like? Because you have to build all new relationships. You're not the known entity anymore. You're kid on the block. Yeah, all that. And you know, back to that imposter syndrome, you know, that kicks in. So you have that natural. It's not fear, it's just, you know, am I the right person? I was so lucky. So like a couple of People in particular Matt. So he was the former cfo so he knew where everything was and yeah, he didn't leave the ye. I had someone there and then my 2. I see Ty so just so passionate about the business and such a supportive, you know, very capable. Yeah, very, very smart. Yeah. So my first day and he took me through his model, you know we just sat there for two hours and you know. And yeah. And over time I then met the rest of the team and yeah, just spent time. I guess that in those times you had time. Correct. So there was actually time to reflect and you know, talk more. Yeah. So I think just all those things. Did you have like a. Your first 90 day plan as to what you wanting to do in the new gig or how did you approach starting. Yeah, actually no. The answer is no because it was Covid. You didn't know what tomorrow brought. Yeah, yeah, I just knew that I'd sort of needed to get up the curve pretty quickly. Sure. You know I had to run an audit tender process I guess. Yeah. That was the first thing I did. I was. I ran an audit tender process which I was familiar with. I was an auditor and Matt and I were ex kpmg so there was some rules around finding a new auditor. Sure. Oh yeah, yeah. We had to run that process and I think that gave me that, you know, gave me confidence and I knew what I was talking about. Yeah, of course I was the expert in the room and that sort of then built on give me the confidence to then do new things. But I think, you know, the plans sort of slowly evolve once I could see the business, see the people, their skills, you know, where they wanted or needed to go and then you actually meet people. So it was three months until I met anybody. They all thought I was six foot tall and you know, I'm only five foot six. So people have. You're six foot tall. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They think you're tall because you got a suit on. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And so you got to sort of start again. So. No, I didn't really have a plan but it's. It's just feeling your way. Yeah. And maybe for some context because maybe I'm thinking of the pubs business. So. But maybe do you want to give everyone a little bit about Lewisland as a business and maybe that's why I was thinking. Sure. That specifically. Yeah. Well you mentioned earlier it's like a collective. A collective of really unique real estate businesses. We have a developments business which is really our DNA it's how our founder built, you know, the company over the 40 years that he ran it. And then we have a retail business business which operates outlet shopping centers and then a pubs business with four amazing venues in western Sydney and Queensland. So really diverse group of passive and active assets. Yeah. So that first month of COVID you know, the pubs are closed, the shopping centres are closed and no one's paying you a cent. So the cfo, you're, you know, how much turned off. Yeah, that's right. And so we're having to go through cost measures straight away and, you know, discussions with banks who. I'd never done that but had experience as an auditor and yeah, you know, clients. And you're part of trouble. Partnered with someone who's very capable. Capable in that regard with Matt. Yeah, been through some degree of that. Yeah, yeah. And also just your advisors, so leaning on your. On your lawyers and your accountants and your consultants that, you know, they're doing it for the guy next door. So, you know, which I just continue to do over the last six years. Lean on. On your advisors. But yeah, and it's been a feature of the business that as things go up, others go down and, you know, it's kind of a. It's a really sort of bulletproof business in a way and supported by, you know, the different ways that each of the businesses work and they're great fun too. So having a hospitality business. Yeah. Oh, it's a fantastic. It's a fantastic business. But it's also quite shocking when you have to absorb all that cost within the first month. I'm sure you're probably trying to figure out pretty quickly how to make that happen. Yeah, yeah. Well, you remember back the government was, you know, we thought, very generous. Remember the, you know, the jobkeepers, the job starts and, you know, we might still be paying for that. Who knows? Will we ever know? Don't know. But yeah, there was all that which we didn't bank on and, you know, we designed our own systems so we thought, well, we've got 600 staff, most of them casual, you know, and I think the credit to our owners and board is they go that far and they think of, you know, the employees at all our venues. And so we'd had mechanisms in place should the government not be there. But then the government stepped in. Yeah. And again, to their credit, they did those. They went through. We went through the government schemes, but our own support as well. Yeah. For. And not just for employees, but for customers. So tenants in our retail outlets and, you Know, and then the, you know, buyers buying houses. Yeah. As well. So, yeah, really supportive sort of owners that get the long term. Yeah. It shows a human touch element. Yeah. Doesn't it? Yeah, like that, that kind of gives you a pretty good view in as to who they are as people as opposed to obviously very successful business for more than 40 years. But, you know, that's a nice human touch to it. Oh yeah, no, it's very, it's very people focused business. And that sort of suit suited me like the coming across from kpmg. That was sort of my approach as well, that businesses are collectives, like the collectives of people. Governments are collectives of people. You know, we have big corporations and brands and labels on them, but they're just people people. Yeah. And so how do you go about, I guess establishing some credibility and also inspiring change or I guess my question would be you have a, a business that's been wildly successful and probably an owner who's wildly successful and probably has a pretty good view on how to do things. How do you add your own touch to it coming in? Like how do you make suggestions or how do you get the buy in for them to listen to your suggestions? With patience. Yeah, patience. You know, privately owned companies that are successful are successful for a reason. They, they are built on a foundation of something. And so, you know, to you, you have to influence to make changes for the better. And often that's about one, being patient. Two, having a backup plan. Three, showing where it's been done somewhere else. I mean, four, just using your connections. So over a long time in your career, you just, you meet a lot of people and you know somebody's done it. Yeah. You know, and you're building it for change. You're building a package to support the change and you know, how it will add value to the business, how it will add value to the owners. Yeah. But also to, you know, all the stakeholders. Because I guess that's one thing I really, one change I really saw is when I did the transition was the breadth that you have to think about in terms of stakeholder management. Yeah. As a KPMG partner, you have a client. Yeah. And you have a partner in charge. And it's kind of those two people. Yeah. Here you've got, got, you've got all sorts of owners, lenders, insurers. Yeah. Consultants. You know, it's a really broad range that you have to think about. Yeah. That makes sense because it's a collective decision to some degree. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And so then how just Thinking about, you know, leadership and from maybe from your team perspective, how did you. Like, how do you develop your team? Like, how. What's your thought process on building teams and motivating them? Because like you said when we first opened, you know, the. There's not KPMG. You can't say you're going to be promoted in 18 months. Assistant manager. Then you'll be promoted to manager and then director and then partner. Yeah. Here it's kind of like it's a lot less structured. How do you manage that? I think the first thing is you've got to care. Yeah. Like, it's going to be in you to help people. Yeah, yeah. Which is something I learned from my, you know, my grandfather. You know, it's just helping people. I think you need that, number one. And that's not. That's not necessarily sympathizing with people, but it's an empathy, you know, an understanding of them. Second is they're not you. You know, so realizing that we're all different and you're not trying to make them you. You're trying to make them them. Yeah, yeah. And getting rid of yourself, your stubborn self and removing yourself. And the way I kind of do that and have developed over time is it's like a mirror. Your role as someone's mentor or leader or coach or whatever is you just their mirror. You're just holding the mirror up to them and they're voicing, you know, what they want to do, what their challenges are, where they want to go. And I reckon nine times out of 10, they work it out. Yeah. You know, and that's what you want. Sounding board. Yeah. You're a sounding board. Yeah. And I think it goes back to my role in my family. Elves to five sons. The responsible, you know, suit guy. Yeah. You know, you're kind of that one, you know, that's. You're just helping people through their challenges or opportunities and letting them explain it. Yeah. I love the quote. I used to use it when I was a young partner. Let silence do the heavy lifting. Yeah, yeah. And just silence. People work it out. Yeah. So I think, yeah, it's a combination of those. Those couple of things. Yeah. That's perf. What do you think your role as cfo, how does it play into shaping or protecting the organizational culture? Yeah. I mean, you could say it's the most important role. Yeah. You could say that Depends who's asking. It depends whether it's your CEO asking or your board or it's, you know, it's your family. At home. But I think the cfo, and depending on the remit of them, has a really unique role. I know I do at Lewisland, that you're. You can be the glue for a lot of things. Because, like, in my role, it's not only finance, but it's hr, it, overall support, you know, the office. And so you're always there, like I said before, like, for the mirror. Yeah. You know, helping people understand where they're at. Often you're the decipherer of the CEO strategy. So We've had two CEOs in my time, and often people will. You're a safe pair of hands. People can come to you and like, what is this part of his or her strategy? Yeah. And you can kind of help them through it, navigate it, because you're. You're probably a bit closer to the CEO. Yeah. And without the, you know, you're not. There's not the fear factor in coming to you. So you can be part of that, part of that glue. And I really like that. Yeah. That. I think it suits your personality. Seriously. I think people would. You're very approachable and I think people would enjoy that factor and be able to just say, hey, I'm stuck. Can you help me? I feel like that's. Yeah, that comes across. Yeah. Yeah. And back to that care factor. Like, you've actually got to care. Yeah. Which I genuinely do. And then. So what are your views on taking complicated financial matters and taking them to a variety of different people? How do you put them or how do you make it digestible for different audiences? Like, what's your tactic on taking complex information that needs to be, you know, digested properly, but maybe by different audiences who have a varying understanding of finance. Yeah. I generally find there's two sort of people. There's people that love numbers, maybe, like me growing up and, you know, looking at the cricket stats and all that. And then there's people that want to see it in a picture. Yeah. And so I think in presenting something, you've got to do both. Yeah. You can't tell a flowery story and not have numbers to back you up. So you've got to sort of position both things for both sort of audiences. And I sort of start and contextualize stuff by storytelling, you know, by like, putting it into sort of plain English, but with a, you know, an example that might not be financial. You know, you're telling a story and it's a way of expressing, like, what those numbers are or what we're trying to do, because Generally numbers are just a function of output or what's happening in the business. And then, you know, if you're presenting to your board, it's making sure you're hitting both for both audiences. And then, you know, you get a question from one sort of person, you know, they're talking and you're working out. Well, what type of person's this? Yeah, of course, you know, am I going numbers or storytelling? Yeah. And yeah, I think, I think success is having both of those for accountants or, you know, people in finance. Yeah, Being able to do both. And so what, what was it like interacting with a board from a non. Obviously I'm sure you've met plenty of boards and senior people, but being the actual cfo, we're the one being accountable. What was your first board meeting like? Or how has that changed over time? Yeah, terrifying. Yeah, it was on Zoom. Yeah. Oh, that's true. Yeah, that's right. I was really lucky. I had great, great experience at kpmg, like presenting to boards as an. Which I did in the latter part of my time there. Sure. You know, so privates and a lot of private equities that are bought into a company and want to understand, you know, and give your view and that be okay. You know, I'd only met our owners once before starting and then the first board meeting was. Then the next. The next meeting. Yeah. Wow. So yeah, again, lucky, great CEO and Matt who led the way and sort of gave me the Runway. Yeah. To you know, take time but yeah, you realize that you know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. And you just sort of go with it. But yeah, otherwise they wouldn't put you there. Correct. You know, so you're just reminding yourself all the time. Yeah. And have you guys put much thought or is there a plan in place from a technology standpoint on embracing AI, technology, automation, things like that or what's your guys position? Yeah, no, definitely we adopted the, you know, AI sort of general use AI probably 12, 18 months ago and you know, invested in the technology but then the training of the team members, you know, so we put a bit of money into it to be honest, because you can see that this is, this is where we're heading. Headed. Yeah, I guess it's desktop at the moment, so supporting people with, you know, analysis and presentations, you know, things like that. The next phase is, what we're looking at now is, you know, the use of data and you know, having it sort of robotized for those processes. Yeah. At the back end, but then in the front end Say take retail for example, like how can we use AI in our stores? Yeah, yeah. And you know, and our other divisions. How do we use it for customer facing stuff, not just supporting the backend. So I think we're, we're on the train. I like to think we sort of adopted a little earlier. Forums I talk in. We seem to have jumped in early. It's now the next bit. Yeah. I find a lot of people are quick to adopt like the things that will help you on the day to day. Yeah. But then the impact stuff, I think I was reading somewhere that it was, you know, less than 10% of Australian companies believe they've had any meaningful impact using AI. Yep. Yeah. You know, that just seems that will change quickly. Yeah. At least my thoughts are. Well, I mean, I'm old enough to remember the Internet. We didn't know where it was headed. Sure. In the late 90s, but we knew that was different and I think we're in that moment as well. We don't know where this goes. And it will go like a couple of guys in Silicon Valley will figure it out. Figure it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And get us to the next, you know, phase of society and living. That's fascinating. That's very interesting. Alrighty. Were you always a career planner? Did you have an idea that you wanted to leave from partner to that you wanted to be cfo or did that eventuate out of circumstance or what was the, like, what was the thought, you know? Yeah. No, never had a plan saying that. I said earlier I always wanted to be a partner. Yeah. But never had a plan to get there. I just thought that hard work, curiosity, luck, sort of, you know, gets you wherever you're going to get. Yeah. But I, when I was a partner and gave that a red hot crack, I then knew I wanted to do something different at some point and you know, fate occurred and I ended up at, at Lewisland. But I've never planned for it. Yeah. My. I, Yeah, I don't believe in like over planning a career because I think that limits where you go and that like, you know, you have to go horizontal sometimes and sometimes you go backwards and you know, if you don't get where you want to go, like that's a pretty big failure for you to cope that you've set this amazing goal and you don't get there. Whereas I'd prefer a much sort of diverse sort of way of getting somewhere. Yeah. And being happy along the way and you know, having your family support because I always find, you know, it's not linear to get cfo. I mean, there's about a million ways to get there. Yeah. And I always wonder, and this is something that I always ask anyone, which is, you know what, what would be your advice for anybody who's in that, let's call it CFO minus one role, who's aiming to hit cfo? What, what kind of advice would you give them? Sure, yeah. I mean, think horizontal first, you know, so how can you branch out and do other things that improve your skill set, get you wider in the business and then ultimately support your cfo? Because that then just gives you all the skills for when you do become one that you know what you're doing or that puts you in the place. Yeah. I think one thing I learned from that mentor I mentioned earlier is there's kind of two workplaces. I have two workplaces. One is a big office, small office and one is outside. And in the office you're doing the day to day and you're transacting, you need time outside. And he said, you know, you need to dream and you can't dream in sitting in an office. It's not, you know, so, you know, that person aspiring to be a CFO actually needs to get out of the office. Yeah. And what do you do to balance professional and personal? I've got relatively complicated professional and personal life, so it was a single dad for many years. So I'm still picking up from school, you know, a couple of days a week and that's awesome. And doing that. I think you have to accept that there's, you know, compromise and sacrifice. You know, when you're all finished up, which one are you going to remember? Yeah, of course. The school pickup or sitting in a boardroom. It's probably the school pick pickup. So keeping that in mind and that might hold you back a bit in career, that's fine. If you don't want to do, that's fine. But for me I've thought that that's. That is the most important job you've got. Yeah. So I've been really comfortable sort of with that and really enjoyed sort of the variety of, you know, being in a big. In the big smoke and doing that and then being at home being told by your 16 year old, you know, you know, how you could do things better. Yeah, absolutely. No, no. And I think of that now. My son started school. Yeah. Last Monday and I just think he was so excited that I was there for drop off and pick up on the first day. He couldn't believe it, you know, And I think, as you say, that it just really solidifies those decisions of being present, you know, because it is really important. Yeah. A very important moment for him and for me. Yeah, yeah. We left being like, oh, my God, it's happening. You know, he's the proper little boy now. So. Yeah. Yeah. It's just an interesting perspective. I think that's a balance that I would love to see more of. I think I've interviewed, as you can imagine, quite a lot of people and there are some, only way I would describe it, as martyrs, you know, just working. Yeah. To the bun, you know, and then basically never see their families. And I just can't call that successful. Yeah. Even though you might be very financially successful or career driven. But, yeah. The big picture, I'm not sure if that's the right thing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You got to be. You got to be satisfied, you've got to have purpose and. Yeah. And happy in life and. Yeah. Everyone's got to find. Everyone's got to find their way. Yeah. And do you think the way you define success today has changed over time? Do you think like in. When you're younger, you had a different view on what success looks ironically? No, it's the same thing. It's pretty simple. Yeah. You know, you get out of bed and like, you get up and then you swing your feet around and then they hit the floor. And in that moment, like, something goes in your head, I gotta go to work. Right. When the answer to that is, I can't wait to get to work. You know, you're doing the right thing. When the answer over a sustained period is, oh, you know, this is really hard. You're not doing the right thing. Yeah. Like that has been my thing for 30 odd years. I love that. And I like, maybe this should have a different thing, but I haven't found a better one yet. I think that's brilliant. Yeah. Why change it? It's my checker that I'm on the right track. Yeah. The other thing is there's this concept called flow. The psychologist in the, I think the 70s or 80s maybe could be wrong. Hungarian, American. This concept of flow, where you're just working, things are just working and you're not even thinking about it, like, it's just all works, all the cogs are moving and I encourage listeners to look it up and you know, when you're in that state, because it all just works. Most of the time you're not. But if you, if you sort of aspire to find that, then. And I've always found that that's how you can sort of balance everything. Yeah, that's great. We'll find it and put it in the show notes for people to find out. Because I find that that's really an interesting perspective. It's a refreshing perspective to hear that. And so, looking back over your time, what advice would you give your younger self before starting the journey? Oh, great question. I recently turned 50, so you do a lot of reflection on that transition. And it's easy. I would have been more bolder and believed in myself more. Us generally have a more introspective sort of, you know, thought process and sort of, you know, don't take as much risk as we should. I would have allowed myself to do. To be bolder and put myself into, you know, more situations. Definitely. You know, I love that saying. I say to my kids, you know, was the FDR during the Depression? The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Yeah, yeah. And we all run around worried about something that never eventuates. And that was me as a youngster, you know, trying to be, you know, successful and keep on. You know, I said before, up until partner, nothing, it all went right. And I was trying to keep that going by not taking a risk. But you got to. Yeah, yeah. So I guess, yeah, just being bolder and having a go, like, what's the worst that could happen? Yeah, that's interesting. And so we talked a bit. I just want to go back. You were talking earlier about having a mentor and a sponsor, and it sounded like they were kind of a key part of your journey in terms of helping you navigate getting into partnership. But I guess what was the best piece of career advice that you receive from either him or, you know, another mentor? Yeah, sure. I think two great examples. One, I mean, from a very early age, my grandfather, who was American, he migrated to Australia in the 50s and he retired to a peach orchard in the Southern Highlands. And summer holidays, we'd go and pick peaches and he just taught me about, like, caring for, like, the product. So, like, he'd pick the peach and he'd just stare at it like, oh, you know, he'd make sure it was right and then he'd pack it beautifully and he'd go to the customer and he'd. He'd talk to the customer, customer forever. And, you know, my mum was like, you're not making any money. You're looking at these things. And, you know, he would explain, if you're going to do something, like, really care about it. And I think that's always been my mantra. You know, if something left KPMG on a letterhead, it had to look amazing. Yeah. You know, you have to care about your product and your name. So I think that's followed me my whole career. I guess. The other one, you know, through times of, you know, when they're tough and having to be resilient, is another quote from, you know, dear friend Matt McCarron, who I mentioned earlier being he. I didn't mention that he, he contracted brain cancer as a very young man. And, you know, he. He passed a few years ago and he. The trauma and the pain and, you know, what he went through, but he would always had a saying which was onwards and upwards. So no matter what was sort of happening, it was always onwards and upwards. Yeah. And. And, you know, he was able to face his own mortality and still have that positive approach. And, you know, I think about that was remarkable, actually. My spreadsheet or my board report, like, I'm sure it'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I've always, since. Since he, you know, went through that journey and we lost him, like, I've always held that, that it'll be right. You know, just keep looking onwards and upwards. And he was always like, wasn't he? Yeah, I remember meeting him and that was very much the impression I got. Yeah. When I met him. Yeah. A tremendous man. Yeah. It's. It's absolutely tragedy to lose such a young Right mind. Yeah. You know, even better human being than the best. That's a tough one, but, yeah, it's a good way to end it, I think. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. It's been really great to reflect on your time and your career and I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity, Nick. Yeah. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks for tuning in and we hope you enjoy the insights from our network of inspiring finance leaders as they share their journey from Go to cfo. If you're looking to make. Make the next move in your finance career or build your team, get in contact with the team at AXR Recruitment and Search Today. We are passionate about building careers, not jobs, teams, not just hires. If you enjoyed the episode, hit the like button and subscribe today. See you next time.