Leadership in a Hybrid World w/Nola Simon

Speaker A: Welcome back to the in the lead show.

Speaker B: My name is Jennifer Tseng and you're

Speaker A: listening to episode number 42. In today's episode, we're going to talk

Speaker B: about what it means to be a

Speaker A: leader in a hybrid world. And I get to interview today Nola Simon, who is a hybrid remote futurist, approaching the strategy of hybrid or remote work with a futurist perspective. She is the founder of Nola Simon Advisory, a boutique consultancy and the host of Future of Work podcast, the Janus Oasis. Nola has worked some version of hybrid or remote for over 10 years, pioneering work from home for her own team. Her expertise in fine tuning strategy, crafting compelling narratives and operationalizing hybrid remote has was developed far before the pandemic. She's seen the downsides of alternative ways of working too. Overwork led to a life threatening car crash due to undiagnosed pneumonia. Her lung collapsed while she was at the wheel and she hit a fully loaded cement hauler. Shifting to 100% remote work meant that she lost access to the office building she worked in for 16 years. So she understands the impact to belonging, employee engagement and retention. Nola believes the secret to hybrid work is intention. Communication matters. It requires listening, asking great questions, establishing trust and psychological safety. Flexibility and a willingness to experiment and adjust course is the way to build effective culture and process. Storytelling is one of the most powerful ways to implement hybrid work and engage employees. The future of work will be about integrating work into life. Flexibility is essential to work life integration, happier and healthy employees are, uh, key to successful companies. Now on today's show, Nolan and I walk through what it means to be hybrid. How leaders can lead their teams through this new world of this new hybrid approach.

Speaker B: So we have a really great conversation

Speaker A: today, uh, for you and welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Well, thank you for coming on to the show today. So tell me, what is your definition of hybrid work?

Speaker C: So hybrid work, I mean, honestly it's. You're working mostly from home with some in person factored in. So that could be. It's actually a really important thing to define for each company, each individual, because it can mean different things to every person. So I'm glad you actually began with that. My personal version is virtual first, so I prefer to work the majority of my time at home or, you know, from wherever I happen to be, uh, with the option of actually going in person if the work demands it. Right. And that's where, you know, it's not like I'm never going to show up in person, but I want there to be a compelling reason for there to be physical presence. So what am I trying to achieve? And that's where I think a lot of organizations don't necessarily actually define that well for their employees. They just expect everybody knows what they're supposed to do when they actually show up and why that's important. And I think a lot of organizations think that whatever happened in 2019 is still transitioning invalid today. I don't think a lot of people have really gone back to rethink that. Um, but you're asking people to, you know, the pandemic isn't necessarily over either. Uh, you're asking people to, you know, spend a lot more money in gas than they had to in 2018. Uh, nobody's clothes fit anymore because we've all been home in, you know, soft pants for two and a half years. Um, so there's expenses to showing up in person. So you need to get people on board. And it sounds counterintuitive that you really have to sell people on why they need to be in the office. But if you're expecting that transition, and it is a transition and a change, you're going to have to really be intentional about that and have that conversation and spell it out and get people on, um, board.

Speaker B: So what do you think are some of the things that we learned from the pandemic as far as, like, hybrid work or these new ways of working? Because, like you mentioned prior to the pandemic, it felt like it wasn't really a question or an option. It was just, we go in, we were expected to be there, we just show up, we're traveling nonstop. What do you think shifted as far as, I mean, uh, beside the obvious right of like, we physically actually couldn't go in in a lot of situations. But what do you think was the biggest shift between 2019 and 2022 around that mindset of hybrid work? Looking at work differently? I'm just curious your thoughts before the

Speaker C: pandemic, I mean, hybrid, uh, remote was really treated like a nice to have a perk. It was nice if you could get it, you could negotiate for it. Not everybody had access to do it, and not every employer was willing to consider it because a lot of employers didn't think it was possible. Right. For the work that they did. The pandemic demonstrated that in a lot of ways, those employers were wrong and they were able to pivot really quickly when, honestly, lives were on the line. Right. So I think that's fundamentally what changed is employers. The genie is out of the bottle. The Cat is out of the bag. Whatever metaphor you'd like to throw in there, you know, it's hard to put that back in and say, we can't do that work remotely because you've been able to do it for two and a half years now. Whether it was ideal, I mean, that's up to the individual employer. They know whether they were successful. They know the pain points that they experienced during the pandemic. Right. And that's something that they can definitely address. But I think what's fundamentally changed is employees now understand that that's not a perk. That's a. This is helping me live my life in a way that makes me feel better, that allows me to have better relationships in a lot of ways. Um, allows me more flexibility. It's improving my mental health in some cases. Some people don't like work from home. So in some cases, those people, you know, might be glad to go back to the office. Right. I think what it really highlighted is the choice of the individual and the power of the individual to advocate what works best for their life. Um, and it made people have something concrete to reference that gives them a better negotiating position with their employer.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That autonomy piece is huge for a lot of us, especially for someone like me, because autonomy on all the personality, you know, whatevers I'm like, that's like my number one, either skill or desire, or that's when I'm at my best, is when I have a lot of autonomy. And I think you're right. Like, that's one of the gifts that the pandemic gave so many was that opportunity to choose. Like, I can choose my environment, I can choose how I work. I can choose all these different aspects that before I felt like I didn't have a lot of choice. It was just expected. Um, and frankly, for me, what I noticed during the pandemic is what leveled the playing field for a lot of folks, because I work in a global organization, and for years, decades probably, I've heard, wow, it feels like everybody is very San Jose or California focused. And the people who are kind of outside, either in a different state or different country, always felt like they were kind of an outsider where, when we were all forced to be at home, it leveled that playing field and gave people an opportunity to feel more included and to feel more a part of the team. And not just like this afterthought or extension of kind, um, of the headquarters. I think that was also a really big component to at least the psychological and mental health of a lot of Folks, at least that I work with, where it felt like we had to also be more respectable or, uh, respectful of time zones, of, you know, when people were working, if, you know, boundaries. All of those things, I think, came into really sharp focus for a lot of people because for some, they struggled with kind of those boundaries of like, when does the workday start and stop and how do I kind of shut down the computer? Um, I think, at least for me, I noticed that we had to be really mindful of not only ourselves, but other people and being more considerate and, um, understanding that we're all in this together. And, I don't know, it just felt more inclusive than it ever had before because there was no, you know, separation, if that makes sense.

Speaker C: I agree. Yeah. And, uh, honestly, like a lot of people who were working remotely or some version of hybrid before the pandemic, I mean, they had skill sets that they brought to the pandemic to be able to help the people who had never done it before. So, like, the people who had been scheduling the meetings before the pandemic, all of a sudden they're thinking about what it's like to actually be invisible.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And they had to leverage the experience of the people who'd had that previous experience. Right. So I think they started learning what it's like to be subject to proximity bias or recency bias and not necessarily be able to draw attention just because you're physically present. How do you do that visibility in a. In a way that's actually going to serve you and serve your team and really position you well as a leader. And honestly, that comes down to the intention that. Over communication and that thoughtfulness. That's how you stand out as a leader in a hybrid world. Right. M. And that definitely changed because all of a sudden those people just didn't have the visibility that they had had prior. Yeah, right.

Speaker B: What do you. What do you make of the CEOs? I mean, Elon Musk is the most recent that, you know, said, you're here 40 days a week or else, you know, you can find another job. There's been other CEOs that have come out and said, well, if I'm promoting someone or if I'm choosing to keep someone, I'm going to keep the person who's closest to me. So whoever's, you know, in the office, they're next to me every day. I'm curious your thought on. I know we need to shift our mindset, but what do you say to those leaders who still hold on to that idea of if you're not physically present, you're not working, you're not valuable, you don't matter, basically, to the organization,

Speaker C: um, to those leaders, I'd be asking them, is inclusion. Is diversity really important to you to begin with? Right. Because if you are that type of leader where you're only promoting the people that you see that you've got around you, I mean, chances are you don't have a diverse leadership team, you don't have a diverse board, you're not inclusive because, you know, are you accommodating caregivers in any sort of way? Is that important to you in the development of your business? Right. Um. I mean, Elon Musk does not have a great history of treating people and employees extremely well. I mean, there's lots of apocryphal stories about people passing out because they've overworked in his factories. And so I don't know that employee experience is at the top of his priority list. As creative and innovative as he is, I don't think that extends to the people that he surrounds himself with. Now, I'm not 100% certain. I don't know the man, but that's, uh, that's what I understand right now. These are his companies. He can make the decisions that he wants to make. Time will tell whether that's a good choice in terms of attrition and attraction, his ability to hire, his ability to be competitive as an employer. I personally wouldn't choose to work for him.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I don't think he's helping his employer brand. And. And I also think that consumers are becoming more and more savvy. We're being asked to pack our patience as a consumer. Right. Because we understand there's supply chain issues, there's customer service issues because there's been an impact because of the pandemic. But it's like, if we understand that you're starting to create your own problems because you're not treating your employees well. Well, as a consumer, I'm not necessarily really pleased with that either. Right. So are there higher expectations from your customers to treat your employees better, too? Because, honestly, it's all part and parcel of humanity and how we thrive as a society. So personally, I look at that as a consumer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I don't know if other people do, but I mean, I am a customer usually if I'm an employee. Right. I use products that I sell, I use the products that I service. And when I leave, do I take those products with me? Do I continue to use those products? What happens to word of mouth. I mean, that's all part and parcel of your success as an. As an employer. Um, you know, I. I don't know that those types of employers, those types of companies really prioritize the customer experience. If they're not prioritizing the employee experience, I think they're very closely related.

Speaker B: And you made a really great point. Employees are customers. And, you know, I noticed this over the pandemic. Um, but there were a lot of folks online who were saying things like, oh, well, I'm keeping a list and I'm watching closely of how these companies are treating their employees, the steps that they're taking, how they're engaging and interacting. And I've. I've seen people where they. And I know people who were like, yeah, there are certain companies I will no longer ever work for because of either how they treated their employees through the pandemic or, I mean, just imagine it's like any situation, right? Like, let's say you want to date somebody or you're friends with somebody, and you see them treating somebody else in a, you know, certain type of way that you're like, wow, I would never, like, want myself to be treated that way. Like, you're. You're always watching, right? And you're seeing how they're treating other, um, people, and that can be a great indication of how they might treat you. And, you know, I think it's important, too, of also getting really clear on, like, what's important to you. I think that was resonating to me because, like you said, some people love working in the office. Some people want to never go into the office. Um, but I think it's also important the employees really understand what's important to them and what they need out of the experience. That's the other thing I feel like came out of this pandemic was, like. It felt like a lot of the power was in the hands of, like, the corporations, where, again, it became a lot more. Even where people started seeing, like, oh, I have some power in this too. Like, it isn't completely, um, lopsided, where we felt like we had no authority or we had no choice.

Speaker C: Yeah, you can see that, honestly, just from the change in attitude to, like, dogs barking, cats, you know, sitting on your keyboard, toddlers coming into the room and being on camera. Right. Like, before the pandemic, the big thing was the BBC dad and, like, the little girl who kind of invaded that interview and, you know, the mother kind of, like, crawled across the floor to kind of get her out of the room. Right, right. Um, now that's like daily.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: People like, it's not a big deal. Whereas before the pandemic, that made national, international headlines. Right, right. So, like, that's a big shift too. It's just there's this integration of work into life and life into work. And, you know, it, it's just the way it is and it's, it's a lot more accepted and honestly, I hope that's something that continues. There is a concern about privacy. Right. Because not everybody necessarily, necessarily wants to have the people that they work with as part of their lives. Right. So, you know, there are people who aren't necessarily comfortable with that. And that's where I think options can be a great choice. Like you said, some people like the office, some people would benefit from being outside of the home and being like at a co working space. Right. So do they have that choice, do they have that autonomy to choose the work environment that's actually going to be the most beneficial for them as a person, for what's going to fuel their family? You know, that's, that's very interesting. And that was one thing that actually was highlighted, uh, in the Elon Musk thing is, you know, he said that it had to be one of the main Tesla offices, not something that was actually remote. So he shut down co working as well. So I found that interesting too. A lot of people haven't necessarily mentioned that.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he said, yeah, no satellite offices, no, you know, it's a main hub or nothing. And yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I can go on about that, but I'll digress. Um, so, uh, one word I thought you mentioned just in a few minutes ago, which I think is really important in, in all aspects of life actually for me is integration int. It's about not only defining what these different environments look like, but how do we help people start to integrate all of those things so that it feels like an empowered, inspired choice and they feel supported. Um, they can thrive, all those things. So what are your thoughts on some of the things that workplaces can do besides offering. Right. All this flexibility? Um, what are some things they can do to help support their staff as either they're coming back into the office or they're figuring out this remote work. What are some things we can be doing to help with that integration part?

Speaker C: So, I mean, honestly, I think that, um, it comes down to the planning part of it. It's like, you know, what is, what are you going to be able to achieve when you Come into the office. Like, what does that look like? What are you accomplishing when you're there? Um, the way I always used to do it was if I was actually in the office prior to 2018, I was actually doing um, like four days at home, one day in the office. That day in the office, I focused on relationships, right? Like I booked meetings, I was having lunch, I was having coffee, I was doing networking meetings, I wasn't doing task based work. And I would set my out of office. Really just say m. It's counterintuitive again, but the days that I'm in the office, I'm going to be less available to my clients. Uh, right, right. So are you really getting what you want from me when you're actually in the office? Because that was my priority and I had managers that would actually come and like fish me out of those meetings because I wasn't meeting what they expected. Right. So I think that that intention for what you want as an employer in, um, in the office and what the employee wants to achieve in the office, that really needs to be clearly spaced out. Um, in terms of the integration, I think it's all a learning, uh, both on the manager's point of view and the leaders, but also from the employee too. It's like, what does that development piece look like? Because honestly, managers and leaders have to develop that capability of looking for outputs over inputs, right? The achievements and the results versus, you know, just time at a desk where I can happen to see you. You might be watching YouTube, but I can see you. So I consider that you're working. You know, um, I think that there needs to be that development piece. But also an employee is also looking for upskilling, right? How do you manage the transition? Because change is constant. It's, we've seen it. It's just honestly, it seems since the pandemic started, that pace of change, change has just become more and more rapid. So is the employer committing to skill development? Right. At all levels of the organizations, what paths are you building for that employee? And so say, for example, right now, like for the type of work that the employee has to do, right now, the employer is saying you need to be in the office like two or three days or whatever it is, can that employee actually build a path to get to the flexibility that they want? Right? Because like, I had to shift from customer service. I had a bad accident in 2019, 2018 and I wanted to go 100% remote. Well, when I had asked about that because I didn't want to commute as much as I had been. Um, my only choice was to get a sales position and so I managed to get that sales position. But honestly, if I had not had that choice, my only option would have been out the door. Yeah, right, right. So that's the thing. How can you help employees envision what their career is going to look like in, in your organization? Because if you're not building the pathways and you're not helping them with those transferable skills that they need to develop the careers that they want, the only options that they're going to have is, you know, they want the flexibility, they want the, the different skill path. If you're not helping them build it, they're gone. Yeah, right. And if you're not capturing their imagination for what this is going to look like and five or ten years. Right, right at the moment they may stay with you just because they need that stability in that location because they've got small kids, they're in school, they, you know, they need the support of family. But like in 10 years their kids are teenagers, they might want to move. Right. Uh, they might want to achieve something different. Is the career that you're helping them build at your organization, is it something that's they can grow into? Right. And is that, that what you want as an employer? Like if you're, if your goal really is to constantly be training and onboarding and you don't really care if people stay with you long term, well, that's the entire. You are.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Like that's the type of employment you offer. But if you are looking to develop people and keep them with you and you know, build that long term relationship so that you got deep skills, skill knowledge and deep institutional knowledge, then you got to build the paths.

Speaker B: Yep, I couldn't agree more. And you're um, making a lot of uh, connections for me in my mind because actually in a few days I'm giving a talk on how to create a more holistic approach to learning for the, it's called for the future of work. But that is exactly what I'll be talking about is how do we create more of those pathways and creating environments where people can co create. Right. I believe it's a, um, it's a process that you need to create with management, but it's a co creation meaning the employees need to be involved as well. They need to have their, their buy in, their say their, their imagination brought into the process. It's not about, well, this is just what it's going to be and be done. Um, there has to be this path for people, because if they don't see a path forward, you're right, they're going to just leave. And it's almost become. It's not even a nice to have. It's like you need. Because even in tech, I mean, we're seeing attrition at levels they haven't seen in decades. And it is a big problem where they need to retain talent. And the only way you're going to retain talent is by co creating those paths with folks so that they, they have a clear vision.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because I think there's just some psychological need that people have where it's like, I want to understand, like, what is my path, what's my future? What, what is, you know, tomorrow, um, a year from now, five years from now going to look like? If I can't see that, why would I stay? Because it just, it doesn't feel safe to me. It doesn't feel like I have purpose or there's. That's something. Right.

Speaker C: I was waiting for you to say that.

Speaker B: Right. I mean, but how do we create purpose more holistically and more broadly? Not even just around the future of work, but even as leadership, I'm passionate about helping people. How do you define what that purpose looks like for you and then for everybody in your organization? Because all humans need that sense of purpose. And if we don't have that, then people feel confused, lost, out of control, and they're going to fail. It's just human nature. And I feel like that's part of what we're seeing too, with the great resignation and all of that. I think people are starting to realize, like, no, I don't. I want more.

Speaker C: Well, I think it comes down to, like, um, you know, how the type of work that they're doing, whether it's. It's actually tapping into intrinsic motivation. Right. And that's where work, my personal view of it, it's going to become more and more personalized. I mean, we're very used as a society to personalizing almost everything. I mean, marketing is personalized for us. Like personal playlists on Spotify. We can go into Netflix and get personalized recommendations. Why can't we build in personalization to work? And that's where you see job crafting come up, where, you know, you might have a general job description, but can you actually make that living so that you're doing more of what the work that fuels your purpose, your mission, your values, speaks to your skills, the stuff, the work that makes you happy, that you work in it and hours pass because you're in flow. Right. How can you do more of that? And how do you create, um, shifts in the work so that you hand off the work to the people who really enjoy it.

Speaker B: Right, I agree.

Speaker C: And that's where I think that there's lots of opportunities to be more creative, more inventive, and more personalized. But again, that takes upskilling from a management point of view where they need managers in place, they need leaders in place who value the individual. Um, and they're willing to do that work to learn how to coach and lead in that. That way. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And it's also using technology, too. There are a lot of companies that are actually identifying, like, those transferable skills, um, for jobs that don't even exist yet, using AI. Right. So your AI may be able to identify the skills that exist within the people that you currently have that you need to transition into new future jobs, but then you need to actually have managers and individual individuals coach those people to see if it's something that they m. Want to do. Right. Because you might have the technical skills. Like, I could go back and do customer service if I wanted to. Like, I'm excellent at it. It's not something that I'd want to do. Right, Right. So.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Um, how do you. How do you leverage that technology but then also, like, layer on that personal coaching impact?

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that you're bringing that up because I do think it's a layered approach. And I do love that you're also bringing up the personalized approach, because that's something that I try to pre reach to leaders, is that every single person you touch needs a personalized approach. Like, how you approach me is different than how you approach somebody else on the team. Or we all need different things. And yeah, it's hard. Like, I get leaders saying, oh, I don't have the time for that. And it's really hard. And, um, yeah, it is. Leadership is not easy, but especially in the, in the era that we're in right now, it's critical. Like, there is no other option. You have to be able to personalize that experience for each person. The, um, other thing I wanted to highlight is I work at a technology company. We love tools. Another thing that I plan to highlight in my talk is saying, yes, tools are great, and we need to be very intentional about it. Because I found also over the pandemic, it was like, here's all these things.

Speaker A: It's great.

Speaker B: And it's like, whoa, yeah. Yes. All of these. It's great. We have so much technology at our fingertips and we have, especially in learning, because I work in a learning and development organization. It's like we think of all these great, you know, we want to reinvent tools constantly and I think we have to be very, very intentional about how what that experience is like for the end customer, the end learner, whatever. Because then it can get to a point where it's either too much, too complicated to people, just, you know, I think there's some.

Speaker C: Right. How it makes it feel. Mhm, exactly. That's right. Because you could have the best tool in the world and if people do not feel great when they're using it, they're just not going to use it. They're not going to get the benefit out of it. Um, but also like, you know, how do you, how do you even evolve that? Right. How do you, how do you create and work with the companies that are creating those tools to actually make them better? Right. Um, and that again comes down to that autonomy to really use the tool in a way that's going to fuel the work in the individuals and the purpose.

Speaker B: Right. So having a purpose behind the tools, not just, you know, throwing tools for the sake of tools because it's cool, but like what is the intention or purpose behind it, I think is also really critical because I also noticed over the pandemic and we've heard of zoom fatigue and I feel like we all just got really fatigued because now that we all could go online, it was like everything was at our fingertips and it was almost too overwhelming for people because they were, it was just constant stimulation. Um, I think there's also really big self component. I'm sure if you follow any of my tweets online, I'm always talking about self leadership and having that really strong commanded sense of self and that you mentioned that intrinsic motivation earlier. There is some work for each individual employee also to do their own work to understand what motivates them, like what inspires you, what gives you that glow or that, you know, that, that feeling of I'm, uh, really engaged and I love this, I'm passionate about it. I think there's also really big component there. It's not just all on leadership or all on the corporation. It's like you also need to get very clear on what your boundaries are. What, what get, you know, lights you up, what makes you want to go to work every day. Um, and get really clear on that as well. I, um, think that's.

Speaker C: And learn those self advocacy tools. Right. So you know, not everybody naturally feels safe enough to actually advocate for themselves and to state, you know, I can do this, or this is how I can do this instead, and, and really advocate for what lights them up. Right. Um, so there. There needs to be psychological safety within the organization. That's something that leaders could definitely make space for, but then they also have to work with people to really voice that. And that's where, you know, you talk about mindfulness an awful lot. I listened to your podcast earlier where you talked about your. Your December goals for mindfulness. That's being said, something that I've really invested in over the last year as well, too, and that's been hugely helpful. And I was good at advocating for myself to begin with. Right. So there's always room for improvement. Um, and I, I think that that's something that employers could do more of. Um, you know, during the pandemic, a lot of people introduced, like, the yoga sessions, the, the mindfulness, the. The meditation part. But it's like the intent was really to help people cope with, uh, the change. It wasn't necessarily strategic in how they would actually use it and apply it.

Speaker B: Integration again, right?

Speaker C: Exactly. That's right. So now it's like, okay, you've got the basics. How do you integrate that? And how do we use the skills that you've actually spent the last two years learning in a way that's going to advance the work, it's going to advance you as an individual and really help the organization. Right. Because you've invested in these tools, the people have been actually using them and learning them. Then why not use them?

Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I wanted to jump in because I was like, this is one of my biggest pet peeves. And I know it was done in with good intentions, but a lot of times for me, I call it culture work, or, you know, things that we do to help support. It feels noisy. I can't tell you how many times a day I get things like, oh, practice your mindfulness. Practice your yoga practice. And I'm like, I. I can't. I. I've started just to have to decline delete. Like, I can't. Like, it's too much. Like, it feels like it's just, let's dump a bunch of things at you and then expect the employees to go, oh, yeah, I've learned, let's say mindfulness, you know, tools. I'm gonna go, then, you know, integrate that into my life. And I think that's where the biggest disconnect come is there's a lot of people out there with a lot of good ideas and a lot of thought leaders writing books and all. But it's the point of, like, I can read it, I can participate in it, but how do I then integrate it? I think that's the biggest piece that I see missing in all areas of our lives, actually, is like, how do you take, like, that thing I learned in that book to then actually start creating a habit around it or a ritual or start creating a change? That is the biggest piece I see missing in, even in the future. I, uh, mean, when we're talking about this hybrid work, like, yes. How do we get people through that change and actually integrating it in a meaningful way so that there's a lot of benefit to not only the person, but the employer as well, Right?

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. That's right. And it really comes down to that intention. Like, honestly, when the, the mindfulness tools and yoga and all that stuff is really introduced, a lot of the intention there was to relieve pressure from the leaders to be able to do the emotional labor that they weren't necessarily trained to. Right? So it's like, let's teach people how to cope themselves. But now it's just like, okay, we're past that. We need you to now strategically use that in that and do that integration. Right? And that's where it comes down to do you want to do that? And as an employer, are you ready to go to that next level? And that's really, honestly, when it comes to hybrid remote work, what you're looking at as well too. You know the basics, you know what you've been able to accomplish over the last two years. The next step is leveling up and, uh, saying, okay, how do we make this work long term? You really have to commit to it. And that's where the storytelling is really going to be important. When it comes to, like, the great resignation and whatnot, everybody is going to choose the change individually. Right? And it's really going to matter what stories everybody is telling. So if you're not defining what hybrid work is, if you're not defining what happens in the office, people are going to fill in the blanks in the story, and they may not m. Understand the story that you mean to tell. Right? Like, they may fill in the blanks and the gaps in the story with their own, and you're going to lose them because you haven't defined it. You've left that gap. Right. Um, and that's where you need to get in front of it as an employer. And that's where these decisions have to be made at the highest level because that's true. Storytelling is going to filter down from the CEO, from the C suite, from HR into training. And that's like is your front end manager telling the same story as the CEO? And that's what the training is, is emphasizing. And everybody understands how it works and flows because everybody's on the same page.

Speaker B: That's Change Management 101, which I find a lot of corporations don't do that well, at least from my experience. Um, and that's the other part of integration that I think is really important is that it does have to have that natural flow and everybody has to be on the same page. And I feel like a lot of times it's disjointed, fragmented is somewhere along, you know, the chain it breaks down and somebody decides this isn't important, I don't have time. Like I don't like no, I go ahead.

Speaker C: There's a real risk for it because of the great resignation, right? So like you might start the process and then key people who were on um, board with that storytelling and that change management process, they leave, right? And then you've got a whole chunk of institutional M knowledge that walks out the door. You've automatically got disconnects in your, in your breaks, in the change process and your, your, your stakeholder support. It's a challenge.

Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It's hard.

Speaker C: It really needs to be a serious commitment. It needs to be transparent and it really needs to be a priority. Because if you're not treating it as a priority, it's going to break. Mhm Hm.

Speaker B: Now what do you say to the leader who says, like I just said, I don't have time to, you know, I'm worried about hitting my numbers. We got big things launching. There's just too much going on right now to really be focusing on, you know, how do I create meaning or how do I give my team purpose so that they know how to integrate these things and how to make this meaningful. Like what do you say to the leaders on some, maybe some things they can do? Maybe small things?

Speaker C: My first question is how do you hit your numbers if half your team walks out the door? Door. Who's doing that work? Right? Who's going to onboard your new people if your existing people are gone? Because those new people are going to need that storytelling. They're going to need to understand your purpose and your mission. So it really comes down to who do you want to be understanding these things. Do you want the existing employees or do you want the new people. And how are you going to meet those numbers if all. All you're doing is onboarding. Right. And it's really just asking them to envision the reality of what's happening in terms of. Of attrition. Yeah. Right. And, you know, hopefully you're. You're actually got real results and numbers and you can see what's been happening over the last year and you understand how that's been impacting them as a. As an organization, as a team. Right. So there's something concrete that's they're going to understand and relate to. Um, so they need that context. Right. It's not just a, you know, this might happen, but you can put it into the context of what's actually been happening to them. And it really comes down to that choice of you can either do it now or you're going to do it later. And it's just going to get more expensive and more difficult if you do it later. So pick your poison, basically.

Speaker B: Pick your poison. Yeah, I mean, I, Yeah, I agree. I. I, uh, think there are some leaders who are. I think it comes down to maybe being afraid. I don't know if a lot of leaders have really had to face this type of uncertainty and change and just heaviness in the workplace probably ever. Right. Like, we've probably. A lot of people have probably spent a lot of time really avoiding it or kind of just glossing on, you know, just kind of touching the surface. But I think a lot of the pandemic also showed us is that, no, we have to go deeper. Like, uh, it is required that we go deeper because we didn't have an option. Right. I mean, you can't turn your head from all of the pain and suffering, not only just from the pandemic, but all of the racial injustice happening in our society and all of the mass shootings in our society. I mean, there's so many layers to the trauma that people are experiencing on a daily basis. I don't think it's an option anymore. I think for a long time we tried to kind of like, turn our head to it. No, I don't want to look, but I don't think you can't. Yeah, I don't think you can avoid it anymore. And I think the great leaders will find a way to be able to balance and be able to integrate and be able to have those tough conversations and, um, be able to be a little bit uncomfortable. Because I think that's, at least from my experience, what it feels like is people don't want to be uncomfortable. Come to the office, sit here. I want to see you. That makes me feel comfortable. I don't care about how you feel. That's what I need to feel.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: That's where the self work for me comes in. For leaders is like examine, you know, what makes you uncomfortable.

Speaker C: Yeah. But also as an organization, you have to make sure that you've got supports in place for your leaders too. So like, you know, you're mentioning trauma and, and uh, you know, most leaders are not trained to deal with trauma, um, nor should it necessarily be an expectation. Right. Because they're not licensed counselors. They don't have that, that skill set to be able to handle that properly because they don't necessarily understand everything that each individual employee has been through. So. And you're right about fear because those people have been losing their supports as well too. I've seen organizations where people you never expected to leave at really high levels have been choosing to leave because they haven't been on board with how senior management has chosen to bring people back into the office. Um, they're not necessarily respecting the messages they've been asked to deliver. And so they are choosing to leave as well too. But that means that the people who are left are absorbing that workload and those expectations without any extra supports. And so there's a huge amount of pressure on the middle manager to perform at a level that they've never been trained to. And like, you're setting them up for failure if you're really not adding in those supports. And even hiring like, you know, extra leadership coaching, the counseling, all of those different things that they're going to need to be able to, to perform where you expect them to be able to perform.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't think, because this is something I hear a lot because I do try and talk to leaders about trauma. Is that uh, like, ye. I'm not a therapist, I don't have a psychology background. And for me, one of the biggest components of this new way of working in hybrid, um, is not being a trauma specialist. But you need to be trauma informed. So you need to understand that this exists. And how do you make decisions, not only how to. First for me with leaders, it's like, understand your own trauma. Understand like what decisions or biases or things do you have in your life that might be informing you in a way that might be impacting others? Like, get really clear on that, but understand like what's in the environment. I mean, I can't tell you how many Times I've talked to leaders and I. They'll say, oh, well, I don't understand, like, you know, why this disruption's happening or why this team isn't working well or what. And I said, are you. What's been going on in the environment? I mean, there was just a mass shooting, like, let's say last week or the Uvalde shooting. Do you think that people might not be fully engaged because they might be concerned about their children, or maybe they had someone who was impacted, or this might just cause anxiety? I mean, just having the knowledge that this exists, I think is extremely important because that's one way that we can support our staff, is by developing policies, developing even conversations to be able to support them, knowing when they're going through crisis and when it might be impacting them. And I think that's another thing. The pandemic showed us. It was a very clear trauma that people were going through every day. With the pandemic, this is something new. We didn't know. Most of us had never experienced it. But it's important as a leader.

Speaker C: That's something that changed really over the pandemic, too, is like you were more likely to actually have those conversations, to actually understand what was happening individually with each person.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: Really spend time asking them, um, you know, what had happened during their week and how they were feeling. Whereas before it was sort of like, show up to work. I don't really care if you're having a bad day. Like, you need to perform at this level. Right. Don't bring your personal into the workplace. And now it's like you need them to disclose the personal almost. And again, it becomes a privacy thing too. Right. Because not everybody's necessarily comfortable with that too. But I think that's. That's a big change too. So I. You're absolutely right. And I mean, I really did actually respect the, uh, the organizations who were really trying to hire new people, and they were actually rescheduling and reaching out to people who didn't even necessarily work for them yet. To say, I understand that this actually could have impacted you. Like, do you mind if we reschedule for, like, next week? And, you know, we just need to adapt for, uh, our current staff, but also, like, for what you might be going through as well, too. And, you know, that. That was actually. That was hopeful to me. I mean, it's an awful thing to have to adapt, but the fact that companies were out there with that level of consideration for what other people were experiencing, that. That was a positive oh, absolutely.

Speaker B: And that's where the informed comes from. Right. Because it's informing how you make decisions and how you interact. It's not about becoming a therapist and forcing people to tell you their deepest, darkest secrets. It's about understanding how decisions that you make might impact people or how what people are going through and what decisions you can make to support them instead of maybe impede them or make the situation worse in some way. Um, I think that's, for me, that's an important component of kind of this new way of working is you have to kind of be aware, be more self aware and be more aware of what's impacting others and how can we respond better?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because it's. Even if you're in person or not, like those things are going to have an impact on people. And Yeah, I mean, I think you'll retain and attract more talent aligned to your purpose. Right. When you can show up that way and people will feel compelled and drawn to that type of behavior. Like, oh, you actually care about me. And.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: Um, you, you value me as more than just, you know, another person on your team doing a job.

Speaker C: Exactly. You, you feel empowered because they're seeing you as a person. You're not just a number, you're not just replaceable. Like it's your.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Experience and um, your perspective that's really being considered. So. Yes, absolutely, I agree with you.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So we're coming up towards the end of the conversation. So I'm curious, what is maybe one, maybe two things you want to leave with the audience as far as like hybrid work or how we approach kind of this new way of working?

Speaker C: I really think that if I could leave one thing, it's like how you actually work and when you work, that flexibility, the autonomy is really what people are after. Um, and it's, it's sort of almost a distraction for what it needs to be going forward. Right. So you need a solution for right now, but what you really need to be considering is what this looks like in five or 10 years. Right. And how that's actually going to inform your company growth, your ability to help people develop their careers. Um, and, and really comes down to that intention. Right. So how do you do all of that? And it's not just the solution that's going to get you to the end of the year. It's how do you, how do you really invest in it?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's so important. That is so true. And it, I'm excited personally for this new kind of way of working, this new way of being a leader. Because I feel like the pandemic really just shot, uh, it put a spotlight on what was already there. Like, it was all already there. And I think people were sensing and feeling it, but I don't think it really became clear until they were actually in it. And then it was like, oh, yeah, like this doesn't work for me anymore. And I don't like this. And I think, great.

Speaker C: And people are taking action, right? And that's, that's where it's like, you know, people are taking action and they're walking out that door and they're. Yeah, they're just not accepting any job either. Right. So there's a power shift, how long that's going to last. I mean, I think that's going to be interesting. And I really think it comes down to economics, economy, what happens with the pandemic, the government policies, all of that stuff. Right. So it's going to be a very, very interesting time. But I find it optimistic.

Speaker B: Me too. I find it optimistic too, because I feel like it's out there. It's almost like the dirty secrets out and it's kind of there and it'll always be there. So we can always, even if it starts shifting, we can always go back to it and be like, hey, what about that? Right? I think it's great that the spotlight was kind of put on this whole experience, like you said, the employee experience, because for so long wasn't. The emphasis wasn't there. So I'm excited, too. I'm inspired and excited for what the future holds. So thank you so much. Uh, Nola, it was such a pleasure having a conversation with you today. If people are interested in connecting with you, how can they find you?

Speaker C: Uh, so Twitter or LinkedIn? Um, but also my website is, uh, nolasimon.com um, and my podcast is the Janice Oasis. And you actually mentioned co creation. My tagline for my podcast is, let's co create the future of work.

Speaker B: Oh, cool.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: We'll definitely have to check that out. Um, Janice Oasis and nolasimon.com it was such a pleasure meeting you today and having this conversation. Thank you for exploring the new hybrid work and future of work and what we can all do to be, for me, better leaders in our communities, our families, our organizations. So I appreciate that.