#EP37: Everyone is Important! with Greg Reed

Speaker A: Welcome to Humans Leading humans towards the future of work that works for people. A smorgasbord of snackable stories to help you be a more effective leader. Good morning, morning, good afternoon, good evening wherever you are, whatever you're doing. Thank you so much for dedicating the next half hour ish of your one precious life to listen to this episode and I do not think you will regret it. So my guest in this episode is the lovely, basically Greg Reed, who is now the CEO of Places for People, which is the UK's biggest social enterprise, which is managing assets of nearly 5 billion quid. So nice to know that social enterprises can grow that big. He is a phenomenal storyteller and he's a lot of fun. So I genuinely cannot wait to hear and share his stories with you. But before I do, I wanted to thank you for your feedback. I do love to hear from from you and I appreciate your thoughts and your suggestions and your advice. I wonder as well, because of some of the things I've heard over the last couple of weeks. Has listening to this podcast changed the way that you lead? Has it helped you to understand how a corporation can be and how culture is not set in stone? It is something that you can keep improving. If any of these have run, you know, run true for you, then I would love to hear your story because your feedback is just really important to me. It gives m me energy and, uh, I know for me every single conversation has at least one thing that I then put into action. So for me, the last. Over the last year, it's changed the way that I lead and think about leadership. So I'd love to hear from you. Of course, if you know somebody that you think is an imaginal leader who deserves to have her own episode of Humans Needing Humans, then please do reach out and suggest a way people who send me suggestions for leaders of startups. That's not what this particular podcast is about. It's about leading in really complex large organizations. So thank you for your suggestions, but they're not right for this particular podcast. This is about how behavioral science can help leaders to drive success in big, complex organizations. So how do you reach out to me? Well, you can head over to katzkeely.com and there you can sign up also to the Humans Leading Humans newsletter, which is few and far between. All of you people. We've now got 1,000 people subscribed to our, uh, newsletter, which is really exciting. So basically they are fairly few and far between and they're an opportunity for me to Kind of update you with the stories of BEAP and the work we're doing with our partners. Also, Frontline Live, which is the charity that I run and love Passion Project, um, with a bunch of amazing, amazing other leaders who give their time for free. Or you can head over to werbeep, uh.com to find out more about how we help leaders to succeed and by shifting mindsets, attitudes, behaviors, or because it's you, dear listener, and, uh, because I trust you. If you have something you want to say to me, just email me@catsearbeep.com because I love to get your emails. Okay, so if you're sitting comfortably, get ready to meet the lovely, grand Greg Read. Greg, I am so, so, so delighted that you've agreed to be a guest on Humans Leading Humans. Um, so we've only just met. We met through the phenomenal Sophie Devonshire who listeners, you will know all about by now. So I haven't got much to say about how we met, apart from I already know from, uh, our brief conversations that you are, uh, a storyteller too, and understand the power of stories. So, Greg, do you want to tell the listeners, how did you get to where you are?

Speaker B: Sure. Just to give a bit of context on me, I currently run the UK's largest social enterprise, Places for People. We, uh, have about 11,000 staff. We have a million customers in and out of our properties over a week. We've got a housing association, we have leisure centers. Um, we have investment funds that are socially focused. So all kinds of exciting things and sort of. How did I get to hear from a small town in Delaware? It's a very long story, but, um, I'll speed it up for you. So, went to school, got my undergraduate degree. I was on my way to being a lawyer. I was in law school. That sort of had always been a destiny for me. I'd always thought I wanted to be a lawyer, do a little bit of social justice and save the world maybe. And when I was in school, obviously I started really experiencing what it might be like and what the craft might entail. And, um, it's a very long degree in America getting through law school. So it's seven years after you finished high school, so a lot was going on. I started working in a bank called MB and A, um, in the mornings and at night. And then I was going to school in the middle, um, because, um, you know, I didn't come from the kind of background where we had money for school, so I had to pay for it myself. And along the way I really realized that I was really enjoying going to work in the call center, uh, and working at MB&A.A lot more than I was enjoying, um, what I thought I was going to be when I was a lawyer. So this sort of, where did I get, you know, and how did I get here? It really just started with, um, me having an honest conversation with my family, with my wife, um, and really, um, the other person who supported me was my grandmother, uh, and just sort of saying, you know, hey, I don't think this is what I want to do. I want to do something else. And then they're like, what is it you want to do? And I'm like, well, I think I might like working in this bank. Um, you know, they seem to be really customer focused. It's very exciting. Um, you know, they do lots in the community. I just. I just liked everything about it. And as you can imagine, there were lots of people in my family or who knew me who thought I was insane because I was just finishing law school. And, you know, I was right at the end of this big journey. Um, and so I got my Juris Doctor and just decided I was going to keep working at the bank. And really how I got to where I got started there with two people just saying, um, you're a good person. You work hard, be happy, carry on, Go for it. We're here for you. And then MBA took me to the uk, where I worked, uh, for Chester, for them. Then I was, um, at, uh, RBS for a little bit. I moved from law to marketing to finance as a finance director. All kinds of weird things. Um, I ended up at HomeServe UK, which was, uh, more of an operational business with insurance attached. I ended up as the CEO of that. And really, um, eventually, um, I'd had enough, as many execs do, and my time had sort of come to an end there. And I had that period where you can think about what do I want to do with the rest of my life? And then, um, places for people and their huge sort of social focus and purpose, um, came along. I met the board, they swept me off my feet. And, um, I've been with them for seven months. And it's, you know, the best decision I've ever made. And I really feel, uh, very excited to be making a difference.

Speaker A: And, yeah, it's funny. So basically the thread that runs throughout your life is the feeling that you want to make a positive difference.

Speaker B: Exactly. And I'm, you know, when we talk later, you know, I always made a difference in what I was doing. But you know, a lot of times in banking I'm rationalizing what we're doing, but making it better than, um, you know, other people might do it or making it better to work there. So I was always trying to make things a bit better. I think I've really jumped now to the. I'm going to change a few things, um, you know, positively for people versus just sort of tinkering around the edges on better.

Speaker A: And this is the thing, isn't it? I keep getting across to people that you don't have to necessarily be working at a social enterprise to be making the world a better place. You can do that wherever you are, every organization that you're in, just by making people feel better. And I know that's what you do, Greg, because Sophie's told me all about you. Uh, you can make the world a better place from wherever you are, from whatever you're doing, just by making sure you're doing the right things by people.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, I think, uh, I never was shy and that's why I love the business that I'm in now because we've got about a billion pounds in turnover, um, and if I can make a lot of money out of that, I can do a lot of good things with that because I don't have a shareholder, um, and I can put it right back into society.

Speaker A: Love your story. Absolutely love, love your story. And resonates, ah, with me on so many levels because there hasn't been a job that I've done where I haven't been aware of the fact that actually my key role, no matter what I was doing, of course it's to make more money and to be profitable and effective. But really it's about making sure that you make things better and that the rest of it happens by nature. So I passed you the Create Framework. What did that make you feel?

Speaker B: Oh, well, I think it validates a lot of the things that um, you know, I've done, um, over the years. And so when I, when I went through, I looked at the framework, looked at the words, and there were quite a few that, you know, really resonated with me and really are part of the messaging that um, you know, I give my team, uh, and the whole company really on what it's going to feel like to work at pfp. Um, and so, um, I thought, I thought it was great, I thought it looked really useful. Um, and it was sort of, you know, there's, that's one of those things where you can't look at any of those words and go, that's, that's terrible. But, you know, there are certain ones on there, empathy, trust, integrity, authenticity, that, you know, really resonate with me.

Speaker A: And it's strange when we do the culture audits, how many of those words which are completely common sense, they're the things that make people feel good and therefore more productive. But it's amazing how many times you go through a cultural audit and people score really low on so many of those pillars and yet wondering, why can't we win? And, uh, why can't we win and keep talent?

Speaker B: I don't think there's enough talk, um, in the boardroom and in exec meetings about how people feel. There's a lot of metrics and a lot of what's. And then maybe once a year someone does the survey and then they look at it. But I do think, well, if you work for me, it's something that we talk about every meeting, every time. And there's always something you can do to think about how, uh, your team are feeling. Um, and really, usually those things are, you know, they're not always work related. You know, there's a lot of things going on in society now that we're very concerned about and trying to make sure our people feel okay and know that they're supported, um, and they've really got nothing to do with us.

Speaker A: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. And, you know, and we're back to the empathy piece. It's just like, just figure out where people are. Start from there. I can't wait for your stories because I know you're a storyteller. Ah. What's your story? Number one?

Speaker B: Okay, well, it's really impossible to work with me and not hear me go on and on about doing the right thing and about taking time to do the right thing and about how it's not always obvious, it's not always easy, and everyone sort of says that that's something they do or they think that's something they do. And everyone's like, yeah, of course that is. But it is really hard, um, sometimes to put, you know, the long term future for people and to do the right thing and to sort of put the short term aside and explain to someone, okay, this is why we're doing this. Um, and so you really have to balance that. And I, someone who was lucky enough to learn that at a very, very young age. Um, my grandfather was really, really important to me. My parents were young when they had me. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents. So I think I matured quickly as a youngster. And um, my grandfather was a really, really important figure. I can remember, um, when I was growing up, he was a farmer and I would ride in that big pickup truck with him on the big bench seat. And he'd be over there way on one side and I'd be way on the other side. And um, we just always going and doing something, it was always something fun. And I can remember we were going once to a family event and I don't really know what it was, but it was at a place in America. It was at a place called, ah, an American Legion, just like a veterans club. And they would sort of hold events there. Um, um, and you could rent out the venue and you would have your little event. So it must have been someone's like, big birthday or maybe even the wedding or whatever. But either way I was really excited. And we're going along and it's summertime and I can remember the windows are down and it's, you know, it's probably about August and it's very, very hot in America and it's sweaty. And we pull into the car park and it's not paved and it's grass and you kind of roll in and you roll across the grass and, you know, you jump out. And I'm walking in with them, just very excited. And I see this car and I know whose car it is. I know it's my uncle's car. And I see that the lights are on and I'm really, really excited. And I just sort of say, oh, Joey's left his lights on. I'm going to turn them off. And I don't know if you remember when you're like these times when, you know, cars were unlocked and you could leave the lights on, which seems kind of weird these days. Um, you know, and I was maybe like eight or nine years old. Um, and I can remember going over to this big car. It was a. The big gto and opening the door, enormous door, big click sound again. Another big giant leather bench seat. And I could see, uh, that the lights were on because you could see the switch was pulled out. And I can remember pushing the switch in that little. There's a little sound it used to make when it went in, little smooth sound and slamming the door and then looking around. And my grandfather was gone. And so he hadn't stayed to see the miracle of me turning off the lights, which I was pretty impressed with at my age that I knew how to do it. Um, and so I ran And I caught up with him and we were just about ready to go into the American Legion. And I looked up at him and I said, oh, we need to tell Uncle Joey. I could tell, like, his face, he got really cross with me. And he looked at me and he said, why do we need to tell Joey? And I said, well, I just, I turned his lights off. He left his lights on. And he just said to me, did you do it because you wanted credit? And I said, no, I. No, didn't. That wasn't. No. That wasn't the reason. He was like, no, uh, that's why he did it. He says, you know, if you do the right thing for the wrong reason, it becomes the wrong thing and just turn the lights off and you don't need to tell anything. And that's been a guiding principle in my life ever since then of, uh, just constantly, if I see something that needs doing, I do it. If someone has to know, I will tell them because maybe they needed to know. But generally no one knows. Um, I just go along trying to do the right thing. And as a father, as a friend, um, as a husband, as, um, ah, an executive, that's sort of how I lead my life. And when I sort of manage my teams and coach my teams, um, this story and this sort of message is something they hear, uh, right up front, and it really guides everything else that comes after it.

Speaker A: And there is a fine balance there. So as I'm listening to, you, agreed, you do things because they're the right thing to do, but there's also a human need and a response that happens when we are recognized, rewarded for doing the right thing. So how do you embed that across a company, a complex company where often people aren't rewarded and recognized anyway?

Speaker B: I think it's fine to reward and recognize people when you see it as a leader, you know. So, um, I'm on that all the time. And you know, uh, particularly like in our internal social media, I will tell my exec team who, you know, are a bit older and they don't really know how to do these things. I say, hey, here's what you do. It's called a humble brag. Go in there and thank your team for something great they've done and, oh, by the way, they're your team and I'll know you've done it too. And you know, so there are, there are ways to do these things. I mean, you definitely should recognize people when they've done something. But whether you need to tell someone you've done the right thing or not, I think is a much different thing. It's easy for someone like me. And I'll tell you, you do get paid back eventually. Uh, you know, in ways that. When they remind you, in ways that they've helped them. I like to raise money for different things. And I saw an email because it got back to me that my chief of staff had sent out to people. And one of the things she said in it is, has Greg done one of these things where he's helped you and he's not told us all? And, uh, you know, he's helped you? This is a time when you can help a cause that he cares about. And, you know, so that's credit back to me. So it made me feel really warm and nice when I read that, that that's what people might think. Um, but, you know, that's. Luckily someone else said that and I didn't, so I didn't.

Speaker A: That is a fantastic tip, and I think it's much, much deeper than it sounds, and it's making my brain buzz about whether or not I do that. Um, where do I ask for praise, do I do something? And I. Yeah, that's fascinating.

Speaker B: It's a great feeling to do the right thing and not say anything. And you can really feel good about that. You can feel fantastic about that, you know, in your heart, in your own way and you. And especially in a role like mine, I can nudge along and help many, many people. And it doesn't have to be, well, Greg helped them. That's how they got that, Got that. They can keep that for themselves.

Speaker A: I'm also thinking, as you're talking, that one of the things that I've noticed, and it's a huge stereotype, is that I've often watched women particularly, and not just women, um, that do a hell of a lot and never really bring it to a meeting. You know, they're quite happy for somebody else to actually take the credit for what they've done. And so I've often said you need to take. You have to take. You have to be more forthright about what you've put in. So, again, how do you. How do you balance your brilliant tip, and it is a brilliant tip, with the fact that other people will seek recognition and will make absolutely sure that they say something that will put them in a good place in the company?

Speaker B: I don't know. The thing that I always tell people is, you know, I'm not someone who seeks recognition. I'm a quiet person. Uh, you know, I don't seem that remarkable when people meet me. And yet I've had, you know, huge success. I've had jobs people would kill for, you know, manage, you know, tens of thousands of people. It's, you know, so I do have this kind of belief that, you know, maybe in the short term, and I can remember this in my 30s, thinking, that guy's no good, I'm better than him. Um, you know, but then eventually, you know, people figure it out and, and, you know, you will get to a point where you will be given the role on merit. Now, as far as women go, I think, well, you know, we're going to talk stereotypes. I'll go ahead and I'll talk about it. And this is one I talk to them to all about all the time is, you know, just have. Just have a go. That, you know, men, you know, the famous example of, you know, the job application says you have to speak French and 75 men apply and no women apply because they don't speak French. But then none of the men speak French. And so there is this sort of, you know, have a go, put your name forward, get on with it. And I won't tell a story about it today, but my ending up in the uk, my ending up in three different companies and three different careers is all about taking a chance and taking opportunities when they come because they don't come by again. So people think, well, I'll just wait. And so I think rather than worried about showing the work for the meeting and all that stuff, that's all fine, just do your best job. But then when you see opportunities, people just, you really need to go for them, because there's never that perfect time, there's never that perfect moment. Um, and put, put your name forward. And then sometimes that's the best thing when you don't get it, because then you can say, tell me why I didn't get it. And then you can have a really good, honest discussion about why you should have got it. And then next time we'll get it.

Speaker A: Yes. And I think your point there about saying, well, I'm not sure whether, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, I am somebody who doesn't seek recognition and, um, I've done really well. So that does actually speak to everything you need. Everything you need to say. Right? Yeah, it's like, it's worked. That's good enough.

Speaker B: It does work. And then, you know, I think you, you have to, as I've learned in my career now, and I think people, you know, have to make Their own choices. Um, be careful about where you work. Think about the stakeholders, you know, think, think about, you know, is the type of culture, if you're not going to own it, like I can own our culture, then is that what you want to be a part of? Um, and um, you know, you can really be successful, um, and do a great thing, but if you're in the wrong culture, um, it starts to feel uncomfortable after a while. Even if you're doing, you know, times. I've been an island to myself and a company like doing many great things and you know, but, you know, if you're not the one calling me, if you're not the board, if you're not, you know, the person who controls the shares, then, um, just think about whether it's the right place. Um, and you know, kind of that's another moment to get on with it.

Speaker A: If it isn't the right place, find place that is. And of course I think the last figures. I was just writing a post about this. 4.3 million people resigned in March.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Voting with their feet and going, I don't like this culture. I don't feel good here. I'm going to find somewhere else that I do.

Speaker B: I hate the term work life balance. Uh, I always tell people that, you know, because work is so important part of life and, you know, they're not, they're not competing and it's not a fulcrum, you know, it's life. And life is full of passions and, you know, work needs to be one of them. And if you find yourself in a role and look, I act like I have all the answers. I found myself in a role once where I didn't realize it at the time, but I look back on it and remember thinking, the bus is late, I don't want to go. Um, if you find yourself in something like that, you just need to think about, you know, it's not going to all be rainbows and unicorns, but is this where I want to be? You know, if I went someplace else, if I took a chance, maybe I go laterally and you know, I learned something different. But, you know, in the long run, will I be in a better place? Um, those are the types of things I hope people in this grace resignation, this is what I hope they're thinking

Speaker A: about, what they're doing absolutely right. And I hope the leaders respond to that in the right way and realize that, oh my goodness, culture is a business imperative. Who knew? I love your first story. And it's a tip that I'm going to spend a lot of time thinking about over the next couple of days. What's your story number two?

Speaker B: Okay, well, like a lot of people when you're young, you think you know everything, don't you? And especially when you're someone who had some academic success like me. And my career was going well, and I got myself to a point at, um, at MB and A where I was chief marketing officer for Europe. And, um, you know, thinking I knew everything and, you know, I would get up and I would do these presentations and anyway, eventually a friend of mine came to me and said, look, we're going to do some media training with you. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, in case the press comes along. But it was a lot more than that. And I went, um, to someone named Richard Phillips, who's very talented in this sort of arena. And, uh, the first thing he did, which was very uncomfortable, which was. Was have him sort of record me. And then, uh, you had to watch it. And, you know, it's very painful to do, even if you think you're an accomplished communicator. It is just really difficult to watch yourself. And back then especially, I think, you know. So I gave him a presentation that I'd just given to hundreds of people, and I was all full of myself. It was all very important business stuff and slides and blah, blah. And, um, he said to me, okay, that was interesting. He said, I don't think we need to watch it. And I said, oh, okay. Well, you know, why not? Just said, well, you are, you know, you're someone who I've met, who I know. You know, you're funny, you're warm, you're caring, you're mischievous, you got a great sense of humor. You know, all these things. He said, none of that was in what I just saw. He said, absolutely none of it. And he said, well, I think you're trying to do is do an impression of what you think a chief marketing officer of a big company is, and that's what you're trying to be. And he says, and no one will connect with you and no one will understand you. And it just makes, you know, it makes no sense. You know, you need. You need to do more being yourself. I talked about how m. I'm an introvert, how I'm shy. This is really the beginning of me doing stories. Because he said, look, if you tell a true story, it'll be easy for you to get up there and get going. And then after three or four minutes, you'll be comfortable and you Know, your hands will come up and everything will work fine for you. And, um, it's weird because that was advice about giving a presentation, and it was really just about, you know, bringing yourself to work, which is a phrase people like to use. But for me, I really took it to heart and, um, even though I'd had a lot of success at that moment, that was the moment when my career really switched into higher gear and I started to be a lot more effective, um, and a bigger influence on culture and, you know, bigger influence across the business. Um, and it was just me being me. And so, you know, sometimes you get advice that's very specific, but you can take that advice and just actually say, well, that work in a presentation, will that work in a meeting? Will that work someplace else? Will that, you know, is that. And it sounds stupid to just be yourself, but I think a lot of people, as, uh, part of doing their job, pretend to be what they think that person doing that job is supposed to be. But if they were actually, actually just more like themselves, they'd be more effective. And then maybe they wouldn't even be in that job, they'd be in another job when someone saw how effective they were or, you know, everything else they're bringing to the table. So that's my, um. My second story is just how horrible a presenter I was. And I was told to just be a bit more myself.

Speaker A: I was told about, uh, a little while ago, somebody said, could you be a little less like yourself? Because I'm very ticker and I'm very positive and I make silly comments all the time and I don't necessarily always think through what I say. And I definitely don't play professional. I stopped playing professional some time ago. And I suppose that in itself is an indication of the culture. So I'm wondering that now, as a leader, now that you've made it to the top, you know, to the top position, as it were, the culture maker, uh, how do you make sure that the people inside your organization can be 100% themselves?

Speaker B: The easiest thing I can do because I've got quite platform, don't I? So, you know, I can be myself and I can. I can, you know, I can do that. I can be a bit mischievous and I can do things that, you know, one of my core words, which, um, I can't remember if it was in yours or not, for me in a culture is fun, um, and that, you know, people need to laugh and have fun. And I, in the same conversation with Richard that day, he told me that you know, it's okay in the most serious of business circumstances to make people laugh. He said. He said it's really, really effective and that even, you know, they won't think you're less of a serious businessman if you can make them laugh while you're telling them something important. And I've sort of never forgotten that. And the whole idea that you work hard and play hard, you know, those are like, you know, cat poster kind of things. But I do think it's true. And I would do silly things. You know, when I was CEO at HomeServe, like, we had a giant call center with 800 people in it. And, uh, my office was in one corner of it and wasn't an office, it's just my desk, basically. But I would, uh, I had a bike and, you know, when I had to take something to the other side, I would ride my bike across the call center and. And it would just make people laugh and they would think it was ridiculous. And, you know, but I, you know, I would. When someone sort of questioned me about it, I was like, no, I'm doing it very intentionally. It is, you know, I want people to know that, you know, I work hard, I'm in early, I do my job, you know, the company's being run well. But also, you know, why not have a bit of fun when I'm going across there, uh, if I'm going to drop something off, I'll just ride my bike with my little bell. And, um, you know, that's just a small example. But you can do this, you can do those kind of things. And then, you know, in our internal social media network at the company uh, I work at now, we happen to use Yammer. Um, you know, I do lots of, you know, I've made sure that people know, you know, there's nothing on. And you can put GIFs in there and you can use real language and you can, um, you know, just be yourself. I do think it takes a while. And then people are like, oh, okay, that's interesting. And then you see a few. It's very weird how it happens, especially in that type of social media. In the company, you see, uh, a few people get it, and they might not be the most senior people or they might be someone you never heard of, but all of a sudden you know them and they get it and they're doing it and they're sort of crazy people and they're putting lots of things out there. And, um, you know, it just happens, you know, it's weird. And then we're at a point now where it started small when I joined seven months ago. And I said, I want to turn this on. And they were like, okay. Then I said, it's really important that the executives get involved in this and that we, you know, comment on it. And now we're at the stage now where I was, I was traveling. I said I was in a car for a long time, and I was just sitting there going, I couldn't get through it all. You know, there's so, so many people sharing pictures of things they're proud of. Um, you know, and it's just kind of, you know, me supporting it lets people know that it's okay. So that's, you know, that's one small example because we don't have a lot of time. But, you know, you can from my platform if I think being yourself and being fun. And so, you know, I've got my Penn State shirt on. You know, I'm an American. I lived here a long time. I'm very proud to be a British citizen. But I still have my passions. And I'll let people know what they are because I want them to know that it's okay. If I see someone raising money inside the company for any calls, you know, I'll give a small donation because I want all those other people who thought it was inappropriate for them to share that to now. Oh, uh, the CEO thinks it's appropriate, so maybe it is. And all the time I tell people, if you don't like something, just scroll past it or don't look at it or ignore it. You know, don't, don't worry about it. Someone wants to raise money and they're running, they're running a race or walking or doing whatever they're doing. That's lovely. Let them do it. If you don't like it, then just go on.

Speaker A: So you're talking there about a number of things. One of them is about leading by example, which is, you know, the one thing that people get wrong. I go in so many companies where, uh, the board say, we want the company to be more like this. And then when you delve deeper under the hood, you realize, well, they're not behaving. You're not behaving like this, so why would you expect them to? And the second thing that resonated from what you're saying about some people, and they're probably not leaders, start to respond to that more quickly than other people. Those people are the most important people in your organization. They're your change makers. They're your first adopters. And it's by harnessing the power of them that people around them go, oh, well, if it's okay for them, then it's okay for me. And then you get the ripple effect of change. Love that story.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: What is your story number three?

Speaker B: So my story number three is one of those things and I guess it's about how important it is to be a mentor or sponsor for someone or just to be an effective leader for someone. So when I was um, back in mba, when I was early in my career and I was, you know, pretty successful, I think I was my first, um, I'd escaped from finance, I love finance. But I jumped over the fence from finance and I jumped into marketing, which I didn't know anything about. I thought it was a curious choice they'd made, but either way I was doing it. And I got called into my boss's office, a guy named Hugh Chaytor who works for Virgin Money now. And um, back in these days it was a bank, you know, so it was a huge office with big, big gigantic antique desks, oil paintings everywhere, wing back chairs, you know. So I sort of sat down in front of him. My first sort of, you know, he was, he was on the board. So it's a very serious meeting for me. And I was used to sort of these managers who um, you know, when you would have a meeting like that, it was about your job, was about tasks and it was like, how's the report coming? What's the thing doing? And all that. And so he just started in a very different way. Started out, um, saying, you know, well, you know, how are you feeling about the job? How's the family, you know, and all that. And I was like, oh, this is nice, you know, but just m more like I feel comfortable with. And then he said to me, um, what do you need to be in that office? And he pointed through the wall behind him and that was the CEO's office. And I was shocked. I had never really, I was a really quiet, you know, nerdy type person. I had never seen myself as a CEO and I didn't even know what to say. And it was just such an outlandish question. And then I sort of said, what me? You know, and he said, yeah, you know, basically you've got the values, you've got the intellect, people like you. I think you could be a great CEO someday. So I just want to know what you think you need to be a great CEO. And it was just such an amazing question to me. And I said to him, well, uh, you know, the biggest team I've ever managed is 90 people, so I might need sometime some operational experience or something like that. I said, but, you know, obviously I know the P and L and the strategy and all that. So I was really excited by this, and it was a great conversation. And then I went away and was really sort of, uh, first time in my life thinking, okay, could I be a CEO? Wow, that could be exciting. And, um, then the next day he called me in and he said, um, I heard what you said about the operational stuff. Um, I'd like you to take over the sales call center, uh, and add that to your existing responsibilities. And now you have 1500 people working for you. And, um, he said, I don't think you will think it's a problem, but, uh, you know, now we can cross that one off your list. And, yeah, it was a great experience. And it did, you know, it did give me a lot more confidence in the latter part of my career when, you know, sort of big operational roles and things like that came up. I could say, oh, when, you know, I had this role at that time. So when I tell people this story, I just tell them, you know, sometimes you see things in people, um, and they don't see it in themselves. And maybe you're in a better spot to see it because you have more experience. You know that. And you can sort of say to them, you know, what do you need to do this? Or, what do you want to make this happen? And it doesn't have to be like the CEO. I have taken people from one discipline and put them in another and said, trust me, you're going to be really good at this. I can tell you. And then I love it when they come back years later and say, so amazing that you did that. And it's really changed my career, my trajectory and all that. And so I just think as managers and, you know, this and everyone kind of when you get to our roles in life, you know that, you know, it's not about tasks and it's not about what are you getting done this week and all that. And that these discussions and these moments and these times you have with people are really, really important. It's really, really, you know, if you can help them become better, then that's what your job's all about. And what I tell my group is, you know, we're done working on Greg. Greg's going to be what Greg is now, uh, at 52 years old, but there's 10,000 people in this company. And if I could get 1% out of each and every one of them more, then that's way more than we could ever get out of Greg Reed. And, you know, and that's sort of what my objective is, and that's what my story is about, is sort of that question that Hugh asked me, which was, what do you need to. For me, it was to be CEO, but it could be any old questions for someone who's working for you, um, and just find out what that little insecurity they have is. And then also maybe by asking that question, you let them in on a little secret about something. You know, some capabilities they have or something you see in them that they don't see in themselves yet.

Speaker A: Brilliant. And what a leader, that guy. What was the guy's name again?

Speaker B: His name is Hugh Chaytor. So he's really. He's one of these humble leaders. He's really important to me. And I've got a couple other stories sometime, if we have more time that I could go through about Hugh, but he would be funny, because if I said that, he'd be like, oh, you didn't need me. You know, he's one of those, you know, beautiful. You're your own, uh, thing. But, yeah, really, really important person to me, and someone who, I think, as a leader, really was the first person. This is not to, you know, uh, downplay any of my previous bosses, but the first person who really took it to leadership to a new level with me, um, and really helped me be the best that I could be, or at least shoot for it or go for it or put that little, you know, once it's in your head, then you start thinking, I'm a big runner. So, you know, every morning when I was running, I was like, oh, CEO? How could I do that?

Speaker A: You know, it's brilliant, isn't it, that one comment by that one guy has an impact on the rest of your life. And as a leader, you just need to be so aware that you can do that to every single person every day in a small little way. Just put a seed in their mind about potential.

Speaker B: Yeah. There was one person when I left my last role, uh, they sent me an email and they said, three times you made an impact on me. And I didn't remember any of the three times, but I did remember them once I read them, and I just thought, oh, wow, okay, that's good. I'm glad I did that.

Speaker A: Amazing.

Speaker B: You can. You can do these things. People are the most important thing, you know, that's the whole point of this, uh, this podcast. But, um, yeah, it is. You know, I think any leaders who, who, um, are trying to be successful, particularly if they're involved with big customer basis, then they need to be very, very cognizant about their people and the messages they're giving.

Speaker A: Absolutely brilliant. Three stories. I knew there would be. Sophie said you're a brilliant storyteller. You, uh, told me that you use stories. I've loved everything that you've said, and it's resonated on so many levels. So the very last thing we have to ask you before we depart from each other, and I'm sad to do so because I could carry on listening to you for a very long time. What would you like to call your episode of Humans Leading Humans?

Speaker B: Oh, um, you know what, this is strange because I do have a story about this, but I didn't tell it. Um, but you'll probably figure it out from what I've said. So m. One of my main sort of mantras that I go on and on and on about, um, and I do get this repeated back to me is everyone is important. And I do really mean that. Um, you know, when you're a leader and you're managing people and you're paying people, no, uh, one in the company is unimportant. Every single person is important. They need to know what you're there to do, how they fit into it. And when I say this, people will say, oh, but I answer phones in retention and you're the CEO and I just say, we just have different jobs. We're both important, and you're just as important as I am, and you need the things. You need to make sure that you can do your job effectively. And so I think everyone is important is what I would call it. And if you ever have me back, I'll tell my everyone is important story.

Speaker A: I absolutely love that. And it's something that, you know, I think that, again, it's too easy to forget that actually you're only as strong as your weakest link. So make damn sure you're looking after that weakest link I've loved today. Thank you so much, Greg, for your time, your energy, your expertise. Um, and I will invite you back at a later stage.

Speaker B: All right, thanks. It's been a pleasure.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I absolutely loved that, uh, those come that conversation. Everyone is important. What a great title. And it's a simple truth that so many, many companies don't yet realize. Vint Cerf talked about this in his episode of humans leaving humans. If everyone feels that they own a brick of the cathedral, they will be absolutely 100% with you on your journey to success. Um, what a pleasure. It's so important what bubbled up to me, the things that bubbled up to talk about how people feel. Dan Ariely talked about this a lot in his episode of Humans Leading Humans. Even in the last six months, I've worked with a couple of companies who are deeply skeptical and uncomfortable about talking about how people feel, and they avoid it. But the truth is, the unavoidable truth is that how your people feel is absolutely pivotal to whether they are productive, whether they're efficient. All of the leaders I'm talking to at the moment are, uh, wanting to embed growth mindset. And that growth mindset, the bravery, the innovation, the courage of being able to make improvements, to speak up, is all to do with the way that people feel. So don't be avoiding that, because it's. It's listening and being empathetic and actually really giving people the opportunity to talk about how they feel is the thing that will help you be more successful. Simples. Um, so what else? I love Greg's advice. Do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Not because you're seeking some sort of validation or reward or respect for that. And just do it because it's the right thing to do. I just love that. And there are so many companies that don't do that, where people are constantly clamoring for reward and recognition. Um, or even worse than that, where people are accepting recognition and reward for other people's work. But it's like Sarah Benison said in her episode of Humans Leading Humans, if you behave badly to an individual, they will remember that don't be a dick, and you'll end up in the best place, because people remember when people behave badly. So do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. What else? Oh, yeah. Fun is not diametrically opposed to work. If you want something done, make it fun. And don't just say it, do it. Because as a leader, you set the scene. It's okay to be mischievous. It's okay to have a giggle. Be yourself. Because if you do, they can. It's really simple. Change agents will adopt your behaviors first and then the people around them. Because remember, we are herd creatures. Behaviors spread like wildfire. So if you're fun and light and caring and selfless, so will your culture be simple. And the last thing before I sign off and thank you again, for being with me on this journey. Are you like, Greg's boss? Do you set the seed for other people's success? Do you dare them, um, to dream about what they could be? Do you spark the seed of success for other people? Because if you don't, I suggest you start. Today. You have been listening to humans leading humans towards the future of work that works for people. This podcast is brought to you in partnership with the Marketing Society. So if you haven't joined up to their fantastic network of marketing leaders, get over to their website and just sign up now. A massive, massive thanks to the fantastic Super Terrania for the magical sting of stings. Go to we are beep to find out more about the Create framework. You could do worse than doing a Create Culture Audit yourself. Because if you stare where you are right in the face, then you can start to make progress and track it. And if you want to know how we unlock the problem solving potential of leaders to build cultures where people love to work and want to stay, get in touch. Katwe uh, are beep.com if you loved this week's episode, please pass it on to any friends and colleagues you think might need a shot of courage or inspiration. Better still, if you're unlucky enough to have a boss who does not understand how to create environments in which humans thrive, pass this on to them. Thank you so much for joining me. Please subscribe. The links are in the notes. Be inspired, Be imaginal, be more human. And I look forward to seeing you next time. Sam.