#EP36: Leaving a Legacy - with Pete Markey

Speaker A: Welcome to Humans Leading humans towards a future of work that works for people. A smorgasbord of snackable stories to help you be a more effective leader. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are, whatever you're doing. Thank you so much for dedicating the next half hour of your one precious life to listen to this episode, and I do not think you're going to regret it. So my guest is, well, he's lovely Pete Markey. He is the Chief Marketing Officer of Boots uk, uh, which is part of this huge global conglomerate called Walgreens Boots alliance, which is a NASDAQ 100 company. So this is a man who knows how to be successful, how to lead successfully, and he also knows a thing or two about comedy improv. So I've got a feeling we're going to have some tips and treats coming up. So, Pete spoke at an event that I designed for the Marketing Society, um, a few weeks ago, and it really got me thinking. I know very little about the Boots brand. I've never really thought about it before, apart from the only store card that I've got is a Boots card. I insist on having my prescriptions delivered to Boots. So it's clearly a brand that I've got, I've built some sort of allegiance with. And though I've never clocked it until I started talking to Pete, it's just interesting. So I guess that probably means that Pete and his amazing team are pretty good at, ah, doing this marketing and brand stuff. So I'm really looking forward to what he's got to say. But before I introduce you to Pete, I want to say a massive, massive thanks for all of your feedback. You've heard it before. But it's really important for me to understand what you, dear listener, uh, what works for you, what doesn't work for you. Because, as you know, everything can be better always. So your feedback gives me energy, but it also gives me the chance to learn and to get better and to make sure that you get the very best listening experience possible. If there is somebody that you know, love, have worked with, who you believe is an imaginal leader who works in a complex organization, whether that be public or private or international or charity or whatever, please do get in touch to suggest for all of you people who get in touch and ask me to interview people from startups, I don't. The USP of this podcast is that we are trying to help people who want to be brilliant leaders inside large organizations. So I'm sorry that I don't always get back to you guys, but good luck with it. But startup. Startup leaders are not my thing. Not for this particular one anyway. So head over to catskeeley.com and sign up to the Humans Leading Humans newsletter. Believe you me, you will not be inundated by mails. It's been a while since the last one, but there's another one coming up really soon. I will keep you up to the trials and the tribulations and the thoughts and the thinking and the learnings and the triumphs in the world of beef, in the world of catsi, and of course, my wonderful charity. And head over to www.wearebeap um.com to find out about a mind shift and behavior change culture transformation programs or, you know, because I know you, um, and because you're one of my followers, do feel free to just email me. Catsearbeep. That's beep. Beep stands for behavioral Enterprise empowerment platform dot com. I love getting mails, actually. And you know, I don't get inundated, but the mails that I get, I love to read and I will always respond, so please do so. If you're sitting comfortably, get ready to meet the, uh, wonderful and wonderfully warm Peter Markey. Pete Markey. I'm so, so chuffed to have you as a guest on Humans Leading Humans. So, dear listeners, as you know, we record this podcast in partnership with the Marketing Society. Now, um, Sophie has a habit of understanding what an imaginal leader is, and she knows exactly the kind of people that I'm going to want to meet. And she said, you've got to meet Pete Markey. And funnily enough, since then I've heard the same thing from lots and lots of other. Had a chat or two and you obviously joined us for the, for the event as well. And I can tell you now, dear listeners, you've got some stories to listen to. This guy is lovely. So, Pete, tell our lovely listeners, how did you get to where you are?

Speaker B: Oh, brilliant. Thank you, Kat. It's great to be on with you today. Um, I've had quite a journey getting into marketing. I originally, when I was, uh, in my teenage years and went to university, I really wanted to be a journalist or to get public relations or even to be a radio deejay. But, um, I sort of fell in love with marketing and advertising at uni and then reached a pivotal decision point where I was either going to PR or something else. And I actually got accepted to work on a graduate scheme for a PR company in London. But I turned it down to stay with the girl I was going out with at the time in Southampton. I didn't want to move to London and, uh, I'd be married to that girl for 25 years now, so it's clearly the right thing to do. So I turned down a cushy, lovely PR graduate, uh, scheme job for love. And then I end up working on the call center in British Gas, just around the corner from where I was at university, and then worked my way through British Gas into the marketing team and analytics and direct mail Digital and others. And my career went from there, working in the AA talk, working insurance, uh, retail, most recently banking and others. But, yes, started with that decision of going with my heart rather than the most obvious thing to do. So, um, been quite a journey.

Speaker A: That's such a lovely story, Pete. That must have been Monty. I suppose when you're that eight, you don't really know, do you, what life's going to bring anyway. So if you've got something that's real. But anyway, what a lovely story, Pete. So I sent you the Create Framework. How did that make you feel? What did it make you think?

Speaker B: I really liked it. I think for me, there's so much as leaders that, um, you know, sometimes you find it hard to package up what you've seen, experienced and hard to, um, bring to life the skills, the tools, the things you need, the things you bring in your journey. And I really liked how it just. It got me thinking a lot more about the process of what I do, how I do it, how I involve others and how I work each day. And it helped to bring quite a few things to life. So I found it super helpful, uh, super useful.

Speaker A: I'm delighted to hear that. And it's funny because actually it's. It's such a big collection of words and people, you know, but when you start doing an audit, you say to people, they say, oh, yeah, we've, you know, communication, yeah, we've got an Internet, yeah. But, uh, that's not what communication is. Do you communicate? Do you incentivise communication? What does communication mean? Are you incentivizing people to speak up or just listen and receive?

Speaker B: It's such an important thing. It got me thinking about, um. And I've been learning to do improvised comedy now for two or three years, and it reminded me so much of that in the communication, the power of listening and the role of others and bringing others in and building other people's ideas, which I think, again, you're right. There's so many forms of communication. Whether it could be just, am I downloading something to you or actually I'm encouraging free thought, free thinking, building on bringing other people's ideas in. I love hearing other people's opinions. I think it sometimes surprises people when our agency, wpp present creative and they'll go in there and say, what do you think? I always get it to come to me last because I think I'm actually more interested in bringing the other ideas. What do other people think? Because I might not be right. I might get right all the time. What I don't want to do is Pete's spoken, therefore that shuts it down. They go. And that's the opposite. I want to keep the topic open. I want to hear other people's views on this piece of communication and this bit of communication and how it's supposed to work. Um, so yeah, encouraging that, thinking, that creativity from others is really important.

Speaker A: It's a really interesting thing. Before we get into your stories about what happens physiologically when you get into a senior leadership position. Did you know that there are physiological changes in your brain? Isn't that interesting? Because you think you know best more than you ever have in your life. And we're all pre programmed to think our own ideas are the best ideas anyway. So it's really hard to move past that and think maybe I don't know best anyway. What's your story number one?

Speaker B: Well, Kat, my story number one was of a campaign I worked on that just wasn't as good as I would have liked it to be. So I had to launch Post Office Money, which was the Post Office's financial services arm. We come off the back of a really strong Christmas campaign featuring Robert Webb and a sausage dog called Doobie. Very successful campaign and decided to use them all over again to launch Post Office Money a couple of months later. We had a very busy brief though and we had to talk about credit cards, mortgages, savings, all sorts of things. So there's too much in the brief 30 seconds to communicate it. And when I saw the storyboards I thought it's really lovely idea. Robert was appearing in all these different scenes, popping out of sofas, arriving on people's beds on a parachute and popping up through a table with a cream tea. But when it was executed, when it was filmed and you saw the final edit, it was just too busy as a bit of creative. Too busy. And what I'd done is I'd. I compromised with the team on basically, uh, having too much in that brief. Except that we're going to talk about lots of things where we should have been focused on one or two things at most and cutting back on some of the scenes. It was just too busy. When you watch that ad now, it gives you a headache. It's just too frantic. Robert Web is literally shouting products at you. So as a viewer, it's quite, uh, quite disheartening. The company did find, actually did well commercially, but it just could have been so much better if I'd been tougher on the brief, firmer, um, on what we were looking for and not compromise to some of the internal pressures. So I learned a lot from that and, uh, I actually use that and send it to agencies now as an example of what not to do when, uh, you've got a number of things to say. Um, it's very busy work, but I'm not as proud of as I'd like to be.

Speaker A: So now I'm going to ask you because I've worked both sides, agency side and client side. So, um, obviously this is a leadership podcast. So what would you do differently now if you were, uh, because one of the things, when you're working in an agency, you're trying to navigate the complexity of a large organization and therefore you just want to please. So what would you do differently if you were to do that whole project?

Speaker B: Again, it's a great question. I would spend a lot more time working on the brief upfront with the internal team running Post Office money and have a conversation to prioritize where the real energy needed to be and what products we should mention. I also should have done a better job of communicating the difference between brand and response activity. Um, so the sense of we're launching a brand here and that brand will communicate and benefit all of you. But I don't need to name check all of you to say we do all these things. So it would have been a better education within the business, a much tighter brief. And I think that would have helped us and helped the agency, I think a lot through that as well. The other bit I would do is I now feel more adept to what I call busy. I can spot busy ideas when I see a storyboard, so I'm far more adept than when I see work back going. Uh, sometimes it's a challenge for agencies presenting something that clearly is longer than 30 seconds and you have to force fit it down again. So I've got far more attuned to spotting. Hang on, are you really going to be able to fit that in the time blank? Because if you aren't, I'd rather take a scene out or do something different because that's a heck of a lot to fit in. So, yeah, a lot more challenging, a lot more questioning, a lot more stronger work up front. I think cats would definitely help

Speaker A: and I wonder whether. Um, so one of the things when I'm working up any sort of brief, I always try and co create it with people and I always do that. I'm just thinking about there's something here about the user perspective. There's something here about getting people to really understand what the listener or the viewer, uh, wants to hear or see as opposed to what we want to say. So uh, I'm just trying to get your views on that and how, whether or not you ever co create your briefs or whether you can see a benefit in that.

Speaker B: I guess, yeah, I think you can. It's a really super point, isn't it, around, um, just making sure what you're communicating sounds obvious in it. It's really going to resonate with your target audience as it really works. We obviously do. I've done research everywhere I've been. But there is also a danger sometimes we make what we think people want to hear or see as opposed to what they actually need to hear or see. So that co creation, I think I certainly still do co create. I love working directly with agencies. It can be really helpful to tease out. We have this thing called connections planning with wpp which is really good to get the skin together when we're doing a brief on the customer experience we want to create, not just the communications platform. What's the connect to the ecosystem we want as well? Um, I think in the post office money case I, we should have worked on the brief with the product team because as a, as a mechanism it forces discipline, doesn't it? You can't, it forces you to ask certain questions if you do it properly, as opposed to sorts of branding it all in yourself. It would have forced those points of bang on. Do you really want this and that or could you just have this rather than these three things? So yeah, I love co creation. And actually again back to. No one's got a monopoly on good thinking. Having good people around you to input, challenge and have a different perspective is always helpful.

Speaker A: And I always take people back to the IKEA effect that actually if you are um, part of building something, if you're part of making something, you're much more likely to love that thing. And that applies to everything, including strategies and briefs and whatever it is that you're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, it sort of avoids tissue rejection, doesn't it? Cats that way. Because everyone feels like their fingerprints are in the work from day one, which is great.

Speaker A: It's my baby. I want my baby to succeed. It's so simple and yet it's common sense. And common sense isn't as common as it should be inside most organizations.

Speaker B: Sadly, no.

Speaker A: Yeah. Story number two.

Speaker B: This is about pretty, uh, conceptions around a piece of communication. So, um, when I first, first started working insurance, um, we did a lot of press advertising. And, um, at the bottom of all our press ads was a whole bunch of details around our registered office, where it was registered, why it was registered, and, uh, it took up on some short format ads. It was taking up about probably about 25% of the advert. And so I was looking at it going, it's quite awkward, this. And then I kept hearing back, we've got to do it for legal reasons. I was like, really? Because why do we have to put it on there? Because it's stopping the communication, being able to do everything it needs to. Because my view is caveats are fine when you have too many. It looks like it looks a bit, A bit weaselly. And it wasn't weaselly what we were talking about, but it looked that way. And so I went to the legal team and said, uh, well, can we change it? Why is it there? And they said, well, the regulatory team have said it's got to be there. So therefore it's there. I went to the regulatory team and the regulatory team said, well, it's got to be there because the legal team say it needs to be there. So I got them both together and realized that it just didn't need to be there and I hadn't need to be there for years. But there was this preconception that both thought the other needed it to be there, therefore it was holding back this piece of communication. And so I guess very obvious lesson from that around not being afraid to question, not being afraid to challenge, and, um, poke at what's going on with bits of communication to be really clear and to make something better and more effective. So, yeah, I learned a lot from that around. Don't take the first answer if you've got a gut feel about something. If you want to question, challenge, if you want to change the established norm, don't be afraid to do it. And often things that have become a myth in many businesses over years are there to be challenged, not there to be sort of held as a sort of sacred truth.

Speaker A: So obviously this podcast is all about leadership and it's all about leadership inside large, complex organizations. And the story you've just told is a story that I'm sure I've been through many, many times. And so what has it made you do differently as a leader, uh, to make sure that those kind of problems don't happen?

Speaker B: Good question. It's really a lot around, uh, not being afraid to ask questions, I think. And when you. It's particularly important when you come into a new. Into a business that's new to you but is established to others. I've learned to what I call bottle the magic. So I never come into a business with like a toolkit of, I'm going to change everything. Because there are already brilliant people who know brilliant things, doing brilliant work. So you bottle that magic, you find those superstars, you protect them, and you unleash them to be amazing. And then you work around what needs changing. That, huh, maybe is less good or less brilliant. And I've learned over time to get that balance right, but also know where to go to question, know where to challenge. And always a bit of a red ragtable for me is this sort of, well, we can't do it because we can't do that because we've always done it this way. And you go, well, why? Let's, let's, you know. And so many times you find that those things are not set in stone, they aren't concrete, and you can push and change it. And there's part of the human condition, I think, isn't it? Which is. It was particularly true in financial services, where in banking there's a whole sort of, uh, willpower within banking, understandably, to protect the status quo, to be safe. Um, and all those things understandably are correct and right. But sometimes in a business, what it means is you don't advance much. You sort of tread water and you become just another bank that's like every other bank rather than really pushing and really going for it. And so my big learning has been to push to challenge in the right areas and to be positively disruptive, particularly when it comes to, um, making things better for customers and advancing strategy, progressing a brand. I think that's really important. So a lot of these journeys and experiences, um, including that experience with the post office and the ad that went last was taught me a lot around not just, um, accepting that status quo, really pushing the boundaries in the right

Speaker A: way, I think, and I think it's interesting from a behavioral perspective, human beings are hardwired to resist change. And therefore if what you're doing is suggesting something has to change. The first thing a human will do is to find a blocker. I would do it. Apart from it's not possible because all of the things that you've just said are part of that, part of the fact that actually people don't really talk to each other. Back to your communication. People don't have open discussions. They assume if it's been done like this before, it must have to be done like this.

Speaker B: Exactly. Which is incredible, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah. And we've got these predispositions making us hold on to that as well, not even allowing us to see that things can be done differently. And also I see the mistake of, uh, new leaders coming in to large organizations and bulldozing rather than taking people on a journey. Have you had any experiences earlier on in your career where you've done that, where you've kind of followed the animal, as it were?

Speaker B: I think because it's a great question, Kat, because I've seen other people do that and I was in one business where I saw a leader come in and do that and it was quite destructive because it creates a sense that everyone feels like they're rubbish. It's like, oh, you're all rubbish and believe you've done it all wrong m before. And actually, like I'm saying, there's no business I've walked into where there hasn't been superstars who are doing really, really good work. Sometimes they're feeling a bit unloved and a bit. Well, I remember when I went into more than to start with an insurance, there was a whole data driven direct marketing team who was sort of unloved because everyone loved the brand work and didn't really love the data driven stuff. And actually I was able to invest in that team, grow that team, and they became like an engine room of growth in the business. They were amazing people in that team, but they were just a bit unloved. And so, um, often it's about unleashing, releasing that talent, letting people be brilliant and free in what they're doing, but also then spotting areas that need boots is a great example. I've got an amazing leadership team. Half of my lead team of people that have been in boots for 10 plus years, the other half are newly in like me. And it creates this amazing dynamic of people that really know the business and know the history, know what we've done before, but are progressive in their thinking and people that have come in brand new, equally eager to advance, to change, to challenge and transform. It's Presented a really, really great mix, having that working together. But, uh, now I've actively avoided the bulldozer thing. I just. You've got to. You've got to bottle the magic every time.

Speaker A: Completely music to my ears. I mean, I call those people change agents. What do you call them? And so, again, looking at those change agents can be anywhere across the organization. But most of the time, people don't notice them. And as you say, somebody comes in and I know everything because I'm a senior leader, therefore I'm bound to know everything because that's how I'm feeling. Um, but the worst thing is that those change agents, if you don't look after them and reward and respect and give them, they are the worst because people are influenced by them. So you can either bottle the magic as you do, or you can just, like, let the rot set in, which is what too many people do.

Speaker B: Uh, it's not good when that happens, is it? As well, because you've underutilized amazing talent and amazing energy and resource. If you harness it in the right way, it becomes an amazing force for good in the business. Amazing.

Speaker A: M. Yes. And sometimes it's a bit difficult because sometimes it's quite stretching or it's challenging. Orientations tend to be. But that in itself is amazing. Love your story number two. Love your story number. Story number three.

Speaker B: So I'm going to pick more of a specific leadership focus. Story three, which is. So I am by nature someone that loves solving problems. And, uh, you bring me a problem, Katz, I'll blooming love it. I'm like, yeah, I'm your problem guy. I can sort it and deal with it. And so I started to pick up a behavior that I hadn't realized. And I was being coached probably about 10 years ago now, and I was describing situations where I was basically feeling exhausted. What's happening is I had an office at the time. I don't always have an office, um, but I did at that time. And literally members of my, uh, lead team would come in with problems and I'd solve them for them and be like, oh, we got this problem on busy. And I'd be like, ah, we can do this and do that. I was describing this to him, and he's sort of more and more like, shocked. And he said, you know what he said? You are cheating people out of their development. It's like, oh, said, you are solving their problems for them, and, uh, you're allowing them to treat their office like a doctor surgery. It's like someone comes in, you Go, yeah, here's your prescription, go do this. And there was a very powerful lesson is what he said is the next time someone comes in with a problem, ask them what they think they should do about it. And then you can build on that idea, but start from the premise that they might know themselves or they actually would be, would be great for them to think about what they could do. And it was like a revelation how that changed the dynamic with the people that worked for me, how all these ideas started flowing. And it's a bit like you were saying earlier on Katzer, and sometimes as a leader you feel you've got to be all knowing, like, well, uh, you must come to me because I must have the answers. And what was exhausting me was at times I was thinking, you know what? Actually, I've not faced that before. I'm not quite sure what we should do with that, that tricky one. And it was great to have team members suddenly unleash to come up with their own ideas, going, I've, um, got with such and such a project and go, what should you do? Well, actually, you know what, now I think about it, maybe we should do this and this. And it sounds so obvious at the time, but as a leader, uh, I got stuck in this complex of I'm there to help fix problems, solve things, make a difference and I need to play that role. I'd missed the part of, actually my team also needed to grow those skills, get that experience and to develop. And it was a shocking thing where he said, you are, um, robbing people of their development. When you hear that, you go, and you're right. And I was. So it was a pivotal moment in my career to hear that. And it's quite fundamentally changed my approach to leadership over the last 10 years to be far more really, really listen to other ideas, to seek them out and when any challenges emerge, to, yes, have my own view, I always will. But importantly, listen to others because actually others have a different perspective where diversity becomes really important. Different thoughts, different perspectives, which is brilliant and actually could, could in many, many cases be way better than the ideas I've got to help us move things forward. So, yeah, pivotal lesson for me.

Speaker A: But we're still back to this. Humans are hardwired to believe that their own ideas are the best ideas. So do you. And I'm a problem solver and I battle with this all of the time because I want to jump in with the answer because I can see it. So do you have any tips that you might be able to give to the listeners about how to silence that inner. Know all that we all have.

Speaker B: Sometimes it can be as simple as writing down your own thinking on a bit of paper and go, well, my idea is that. And then just, uh, like, I've got it out by writing it down. Yeah. So I find that in a meeting when. When you're solving something naughty is write your thing down. And then. But then let's really listen. And then you can reflect on what you've written down and go, well, maybe I will or won't share that, but let's listen to what else is going on around the room. I guess it's that thing about. It's about active listening, isn't it? Is engaging a different bit of you where you really lean forwards in that moment. Um, so I think there's active listening. There's also a technique which we use in improvised comedy called. Yes. And which I really like, which is. So if you and I were doing an improvised comedy sketch together and you would say to me, pete, it's brilliant that we're on the beach together. And I go, yes. And because we're on the beach, we can get an ice cream and ride a donkey. And you go, yes. And Pete, because we're on the beach, we could go on the fun fair. So suddenly we've built this world out. Now there's blocking in, uh, improvised comedy, which is. Katz, you turn to me and go, pete, what an amazing day at the beach. And I go, I hate the beach. It's really boring. Let's go home. Suddenly I've blocked you, and the scene at. The scene is over. Uh, but importantly for someone watching a scene like that, it's like, oh, it's awful. And then how do you feel like, oh, I love being on the beach. And suddenly I've stopp. I think often we see in meetings things that go on where people's ideas are blocked. Now, look, there's some points where in certain meetings where you just do need to close some ideas down sometimes because they may be not workable. So I'm not saying let's dream that we're all going to fly to space tomorrow, but I do think, yes, sound is a technique. Back to so active listening, building on other people's ideas to see where they could go is not unhelpful. It also builds people's confidence in their own. Uh, so someone's got an idea, you go, actually, something in there. And actually, we did this with that and did that. We could take it over here. Actually validates their thinking. Validates their perspective, but actually could take it on to a different direction. So I do think there's some really important techniques of listening using tools like yes. And to really get the best out of ideas. But also there's something so powerful in having your idea validated. Isn't it all quite fragile human beings actually to go, yeah, it's really good that actually maybe we can do this with a. It's such a powerful thing, makes such a difference to people. So, yeah, those techniques really work for me.

Speaker A: And it's recognition. It's saying to that person, you are worthy of me listening to you. I think your idea has something in it. Just that. Something that simple. And we all know how it feels to have an idea shut down. And it happens again and again and again. And the more formal meetings are, the more likely people are to do that. And it's it. For me, it's always a matter of the empathy piece. Just put yourself in their shoes. How would that feel if it was you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker A: That would never work. You know, that will never work. Let's just move on. Oh, my God.

Speaker B: Oh. And then for the person next time, how likely are they to offer an opinion? Very, very unlikely. So immediately back to the robbing people of their development. If you actually basically shut someone down, where you go, actually, I really want to hear from that person. I want to hear that perspective. Um, you're giving people a voice is so important, I think, particularly as a leader. And I feel that. Not that you should anyway. It doesn't matter what grade anyone is. Everyone will have a voice. So actually really interesting what the marketing manager who's working on the ground on a campaign really thinks about this idea because they're going to be the one taking it to market. Yeah, my opinion is interesting, but actually, what do they think they deal with beauty or health or whatever we're working on at that time. Every single day, they have a voice. Their opinion matters. And it's a really important and a good one. That means hearing.

Speaker A: And I think it's interesting, Dan Ariella, in his podcast, uh, he was talking about the idea that actually just bringing diverse people into Tickerbox does not make any difference to your profitability. Bringing people in and making them feel like they are as important as anyone else in the organization. That is, that leads to exponential growth and profitability and effectiveness and all of those things. And so I think what you're saying is absolutely important. And it's about the inclusion part of the diversity agenda. Uh, at the end of the day, every Single person in this organization has an idea for making this organization better. And if they don't, why on earth did you hire them?

Speaker B: I completely agree. Because people aren't machines, they're not robots, are they? And actually we want that free thinking, we want that creativity, we want that spark in people, particularly in marketing, to really shine through. Because I sit and think the people in my team will be, some of this team will be future CMOs. So the experience they've got now is really important because they're learning things that uh, I would love them in years to come, 10, 15, whatever years, time to look back and uh, go, this was a really brilliant moment in my career where I was allowed to freely manage projects, express an opinion, get a perspective on creative thinking rather than think, oh God, that was the time I was shut down and I didn't feel very happy. A chance to express, you can see the difference in the leadership journey. So I feel I've got personally and with my lead team a huge responsibility to nurture that future talent and see it come forward, not inadvertently suppress and hold it back, but unleash it. Absolutely unleash it. That's what we need.

Speaker A: Pete, I absolutely loved your stories. They resonated with me on so many levels and I know they will with many of the listeners. And for those listeners they didn't resonate with, this is what you need to learn to be a good leader. So the very last question I need to ask you, Pete, is what would you like to call your episode of Humans Leading Humans?

Speaker B: I think it would be m. Uh, I'm going to, I'm going to call it Leaving a Legacy because I think for me that this bit around, um, nurturing future talent, unleashing, um, people's potential, listening, challenging, questioning, are all things about leaving a legacy that I hope will inspire future marketers. So yeah, let's call it Leaving a Legacy.

Speaker A: Uh, absolutely love that. I can't thank you enough for your time and your energy and your experience. I loved that.

Speaker B: Pete, brilliant. Thank you, Kat. Great talking to you today.

Speaker A: I loved that. What a brilliant conversation. It's uh, funny listeners. Sometimes I just kind of forget I'm recording. It just turns into this wonderful free flowing conversation. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. So what bubbled up for me, I guess as uh, such a brilliant marketing brand leader, it would completely make sense that today was all around communication. It's really easy to forget that communication is not about telling people what you want them to hear. It's about imagining how the Communication might make the person feel. It's about listening. It's about creating a dynamic that encourages free thought and inspires new ideas and welcomes opinions and builds on what the other person says. I absolutely love that. Yes. And, um, improv game. Here's the thing. Do listen. So the next meeting you go into, this is a challenge. Take it, please. Set it up as a yes and game. Seriously, just give it a go and mail me or message me, let me know what's happened, what happens, and I'll cover it on next week's podcast. And I was also, you know, because every time I meet one of these amazing leaders that I interview, I look at my own behavior, because that's what humans do. And I wondered, how many times I do that blocking thing. How many times do you do that blocking thing? So all you comms people, before your internal comms, I'm talking about, um, anyone who's doing internal comms, before you write yet another mail, before you commission yet another poster, just think about whether there's another way. Is there a smarter way that you can use comms to provoke real communication between maybe people who are not yet talking to each other and who are definitely not listening to each other? Because success comes from connection. All of the programs that we design for big companies, the mind shift, the behavior change programs, the cultural transformation programs, we use internal comms to provoke thinking and to collect thinking and opinions. They bottle the magic of the change agents that Pete was talking about. Pete, I'm going to totally steal that. I love that little stain. Bottle the magic. I reckon that. Oh, God. Um, here we go again. I'm going to go on a bit of a rant. I reckon internal comms is the most underutilized or actually probably badly utilized tool in most companies. So I reckon that comms, and I've seen it a million times, I don't just reckon it, I know it. Comms is the superpower if you use it right. And that's not when you use it to tell people what the exco want them to hear. And it's definitely not a brilliant tool if it's used to put lipstick on a pig. Oh, look, everything's changed. Yeah, but nothing's changed. So comms, in the world of beep, in our, uh, mind shift programs, is the tool that unleashes the power of change agents. We use it to collect and, um, amplify their diverse thoughts, their opinions, to provide a platform where they feel safe to share the hidden blockers, those barriers, those. Those behaviors that get in the way of them feeling great and get in the way of your company being brilliant. So Comms isn't a standalone thing. It's a tool, um, by which that we use to architect conversations and find ways of provoking and uh, collaboration and problem solving. Comms, dear, is a superpower. So that. I'm just. Sorry I just had to say that. And I love what Pete said about the Create Framework as well. Its function is to do exactly what he said to help to shine a light, if you like, on the things that make them excel as leaders so that they can focus more clearly on that, on those things. And there was one other thing that just popped back into my mind. Um, I'm going to steal your tip to silence my inner blocking know all. I'm going to start writing my question down before I jump in to propose the answer and make sure that I'm the last person on the table that's heard. So thank you, Pete. I just found that incredibly provocative and educational and I loved it. So thank you so much and thank you for listening to humans leading humans. This podcast is brought to you in partnership with the Marketing Society. If you are a senior marketing leader and you need the know how and the networks to succeed and you're not already a member of that brilliant tribe, jump over to their website and become part of the tribe. I would absolutely 100% recommend it. There's some amazing people and some inspiration in there that you don't want to be missing. Thank you to the fantastic superterranea for the magical sting of stings. Go to. We are ah Beep. To find out more about the Create Framework and how we support companies by building cultures of connection and collaboration and unleashing the problem solving potential of humans. If you love this episode, and I certainly did, please pass it on to your friends. Share it on social. Give it to your friends that you think might need a shot of inspiration or motivation or energization. Thank you so much for joining me. If there's a senior leader you'd like me to interview, don't Forget, mail me catsearbeep.com Please subscribe. The links are in the note. Be inspired, be imaginal, be more human. And I look forward to seeing you at the next episode.

Speaker B: Mhm. Sam.