The Manager Who Broke the Rule and Was Right

Kandi Gongora & Rebecca Taylor | May 29 === [00:00:00] Welcome to HR Voices, a podcast where people leaders share their side of the story. We talk about the challenges they're facing, how they're addressing them, and what changes they hope to see as the workplace evolves. This podcast is sponsored by All Voices, the all-in-one employee relations platform. Rebecca Taylor: Hello, and welcome to HR Voices. I'm your host, Rebecca Taylor, and I'm here with Candy Gongora, the chief experience officer at The Carr Group. Thank you, Candy, so much for being here. Welcome. Kandi Gongora: Hi, thanks for having me here Rebecca Taylor: I'm so excited for this conversation 'cause I know that it's-- We didn't even get a chance to prep before this, but you and I were just, like, going back and forth over email, and we both kind of... leaning towards the scenario that you chose, so I'm really excited to talk about this. So are you ready for me to read it out? Kandi Gongora: I am ready. I, when I saw it, I was like, "This is it. This is the one." Yes. Rebecca Taylor: this is very topical. I think this Kandi Gongora 2: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: with, like, lot of things that everyone's sort of dealing with and sort of figuring out right now. so I'm excited to pick your brain on kind of how you'd approach something like [00:01:00] this. we're calling this the forced ranking fallout. A company adopts a forced ranking system requiring managers to place 10% of employees in the lowest performance tier annually, regardless of absolute performance. A manager refuses to rank any of her team in the bottom tier, certifying in writing that all her direct reports exceed expectations. HR faces a manager defying a company-mandated process. Several employees who are placed in bottom tiers by other managers file discrimination complaints, arguing the system produces racially disparate outcomes. HR polls supports the claim. Leadership wants to defend the system. HR must advise on both the managerial insubordination and the underlying disparate impact risk. So before we even dive into all of the different components and pieces of this, if we take a step back and look at it from the highest level, what stands out to you, Candy, as the most unclear or the most risky in this scenario? Kandi Gongora: I think for me, I have lots of questions, but at the high level, [00:02:00] what's most unclear to me is what are you trying to achieve? What's the outcome? What's the business outcome? Because I feel like leadership probably has one idea of what they're trying to do and what they're trying to solve, but it's not really clear that that's gonna give the, the, the, the outcome they want. And I'm not even sure if they have a path to that, right? Like, did they even think about that? Um, I think a huge risk to innovation, collaboration, their culture, there's, there's a lot of risk there. I mean, besides legal. Legal is just, that's foundational, right? But there's definitely bigger risk that is usually hidden that leadership doesn't see or isn't aware of, like very big unintended consequences. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Kandi Gongora: Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: There's a lot of, there, there's a lot of layers to this one, I think, and that's sort of where, you know, 'cause you have the, you have sort of the, the concept of performance in general, but then you find that it's inequitable performance management, then you have the fact that there are, you know, that there are [00:03:00] people who are filing claims about this, and then we find out that it's true. It's like, okay, there's, there's a lot. and one of the things that you mentioned is you wanna understand sort of the, the business reason or the why for, you know, for this. So in your experience, or if you've had experience with sort of forced ranking systems what is usually the reason why companies do this, where it's like you have to sort of force rank the bottom X percent of people every year? Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. I think I've actually had managers or leaders bring this up to me, and I'm always, "No." But I know go get the research and bring it forward. But I-- what they're usually looking at is a way to identify the low performers and work them out. Um, a lot of times it's due to our, you know, the manager team not, not having the courage or the skills equipped to have the right conversations to turn the performance around or, or to come to a conclusion of like, "This may not be the right place for you," right? Not working. So I think that's a situation. And als- I mean, I've also seen it, not in the companies I've [00:04:00] worked in, but I've heard from peers where they use it as a mechanism where they don't have to give raises, Rebecca Taylor: Mm-hmm. Kandi Gongora: reason. And I think sometimes they jump to, "We need accountability, and we need better performance, and we need all these things, and I need to see what the talent's doing, and so let's just put it in order." And I think there is some old school practices, you know, like GE did it, Microsoft did it. But okay, they did it. They started piloting that, I think, in the ' 80s, and they gave that, that practice up a long time ago, like double-digit years ago, right? And so I think part of that is just them defaulting to something they've heard or seen as well in the past, and they're not up to speed on the current practices and the, again, the consequences of that decision. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. And it's interesting, I love that you called out that sometimes it means that it's just sort of reasons for them to not give raises. Kandi Gongora 2: Yes Rebecca Taylor: like sometimes if you're in that bottom tier, you're not gonna get a raise. Sometimes if you're in that bottom tier, you're gonna get managed out or pushed Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. [00:05:00] Mm-hmm Rebecca Taylor: sometimes it's a combination. It's like you're not gonna get a raise, and you're gonna get put on a PIP. So not only do we not have to pay you, but now we're gonna try to manage you out, which is sort of a, a whole other of thing. It's one of those things that it's never-- I've never heard of a healthy culture and morale in a forced ranking type of situation Kandi Gongora: No. No. I mean, we, we, we really need... Think about how fast companies move today, all of them, even, even in industries that are normally slower. With AI and all the technology and the way that the world is and how things are changing and disrupted, you have to move quickly. You need to innovate, and that's doesn't happen just at leadership. That happens throughout your workforce, the people who are closest to work. So if you-- if they're worried about being forced ranking, they're not gonna collaborate. They're gonna worry about making mistakes. They're not gonna come forward with truth like this manager did. They're going to keep that to themselves, and they're gonna put their head down and do the work they need to do to, to, to be in that top ranking and be safe. [00:06:00] And, and, and... Or, or if they're really entrepreneurial and they, they are innovative and they like to build, they're gonna go somewhere else. So you'll lose your, your great talent. But there's, I think, so many, so many consequences to the business that is, you know, costs money to the bottom line. Think about the turnover too. Rebecca Taylor: Mm-hmm. Kandi Gongora: If you have these people who are in the bottom 10%, whose fault is that? Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: Like if they truly are or you really wanna put people in the bottom 10%, whose fault? Who hired them? And then who... Either they made a bad hire, or they didn't onboard them well, or they haven't developed them well, or they're not clear enough in the expectations and the, and then to support them to get there. So it really goes all the way back up to leadership and then the managers and how we're supporting managers to, to grow our people and to make sure our people can perform. So I don't think they think about it that way though. Mm-hmm. Maybe. Rebecca Taylor: the impact that we'll make. Kandi Gongora: Maybe. That'd be great. Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: So let's pretend [00:07:00] that this scenario is one that is on your desk, right? So you know, when you're looking at the people that are involved here, so you have the manager. I definitely could probably go on a whole tangent about how the manager not putting their person in below expectations could be a reflection of them not wanting to make themselves look bad, or it could be true. Kandi Gongora 2: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: but I'll, I'll leave that there before I start to draw any fake conclusions from this fake scenario. Kandi Gongora 2: Sure. Rebecca Taylor: you've got the manager, you've got the the employees on their team who, you know, are kind of involved in the way that they're just present, right? And then you have the people who are, who are actually, like, filing complaints. So who do you talk to first in this scenario? And, like, if you're just gonna start an investigation, like, who are you talking to, and what are you trying to learn or find out? Kandi Gongora: First, I would talk... it's a toss-up. Part of me would start with leadership, but part of me would start with the manager. The scenario suggests that we already have the, um, research to show that there [00:08:00] is disparate practices, right? So that's there, that's sitting there, right? I do need to bring that forward to leadership. However, in this scenario, I wanna understand, I think, first with the manager and spend time with this manager who said, "I'm not doing this, and my employees are all meets or exceeds expectations." And I wanna go, I would go in there curious and ask her why, show me the proof, give me-- like really dig into there and understand, because I, I'm going to assume that because she put herself in writing... Like, yes, she could be trying to look good, but she could also have integrity and say like, "This is not right. I believe in my team, and I don't feel right putting them there." So I'm gonna assume that. I'm gonna walk in and have some questions with her and really dive in deep with her metrics and how she's looking at the performance, the conversations she's had with her employees, how she's developing, developing them, all the things of, of how she's managing her team and really get a feel for that. Kandi Gongora 5: Yeah Kandi Gongora: Uh, even though I have the research for the other teams, I would like to do some spot checking and check with [00:09:00] those managers and help- have them help me understand a little bit, just from a conversational versus the investigation that's already happened. But more of just the process and how you think about it and how you, how do you collaborate, how... Or co- not collaborate, but, uh, calibrate and look at that, right? So once I have the information, I'm going to go talk to leadership. And before I even show them the, the research and the, the information I've gathered so far, I wanna come in very curious. It's not about battling them against their system or their choice. I wanna start with what are you trying to achieve? Like, help me understand, 'cause I'm assuming I, either I wasn't involved or in, in their decision, or I wasn't, um- I wasn't including till later. There's a reason why. So I'm gonna see why wasn't involved. So I wanna find out, like, what are you trying to achieve? What's the business problem that we're trying to solve here? And really ask a lot of questions around [00:10:00] that to understand how they got to the forced ranking, Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: that I truly understand where they're coming from, their mindset, what-- where they're going, what they're trying to do. Because without that, it's just, it's just gonna put them on the defense. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: that's not helpful to anybody, and that just makes my job harder and not, not a great outcome for the employees or the company. So once I can understand that, my hope is if they really share their business problem, I can show them where, you know, we can get to a different outcome. And I can do that in a couple ways. I could say, "Are you open to different approaches if we get the same or better outcome?" Right? Um, but-- And also I could ask, "Do we-- can we look at some data to see how we're doing? Do we know how we're doing so far? If this is what you're trying to achieve, can we look at some data to see how we're doing on with this so far?" Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: Um, and I'm sure they're gonna say, "Where are we with this, with the manager? What are we gonna do with that?" And I will get to that, but I, I first want to understand their perspective and start with them. So once [00:11:00] we determine that, if they're willing to let me talk about some other approaches, and we look at the data and the data's not there, then I can let them know that, "Let's co-collaborate together. I want-- Maybe we make some tweaks and some different, um, things that we could do that would get them the results they want, and will take away the risk that has come up." And that, that's where I could bring up some of these things, like share my concerns now. Like, "I, I get where you're trying to go here, what you're trying to do. I have some thoughts on approaches if you're willing. Meanwhile, this is a real concern. This has been brought up. This, we've researched it. This is true. This is happening in the current system, so we're gonna need to address that. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: Also, over here, I did speak with the manager and wanted to find out about her team, and I understand she's not following our process. I understand that. I want to understand why, because sometimes people stand up for the right reasons, and they're not wrong. The system may be wrong, Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: but leadership's not wrong either. You're trying to do something. So it's the [00:12:00] system. So I wanted to look and see if it's the system, and it appears to be the system. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: So I think she's a data point. I think she took courage to stand up, and so let's not ruin that because there may be others that could stand up, too, against the system. But they're, you know, right now they could just be compliant, Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: We, we don't wanna get stuck in a compliance role." So I would start there with leadership. I know that was a lot, but that's kind of where I would start. Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: no, it's good. I mean, there's a lot of people to talk to. There's a lot of Kandi Gongora 2: Right. Right Rebecca Taylor: because especially if you're gonna try to go into problem-solving mode at some Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: you know, this isn't just a typical employee relations situation. It's like this is, this is an employee relations situation that then found out in investigation that it was actually a bigger legal issue, Kandi Gongora: Right Rebecca Taylor: you're discriminating against people intentionally or not intentionally, and now there's stuff happening, right? what's your take on the-- One of the pieces of this scenario is that HR has to deal with manager insubordination. But what's your take on manager [00:13:00] insubordination when the thing that they're being insubordinate about turns out to be a legal issue for the company? Like they're not s- they, they're not supporting a system that is actually very risky for the Kandi Gongora: Right. Right Rebecca Taylor: do you kind of thread that needle? Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think it goes back to looking at the, the data and doing-- It's, it's about, about the research you do, right? So like looking at the data, we have the research to show that there is something there. So I have that data. I go and look at her data. I spent the time with her, and I see that her team is performing. Like she has proof she's performing. She's certified it. She's stated it, right? And so the fact that we have this case, going to leadership and sharing with them, like, "Do we have this investigation? We have proof here. We can't unsee this," right? Like, "We have to address it now and do further investigation," or, and/or, "Here's what I've discovered so far with her and what I've seen here." And [00:14:00] that's proving, like it's proving that the system is not working and the fact that she made the decision to go against us so that she didn't create, uh, you know, a future scenario. So she's actually trying to keep us from having that risk by just standing up and having some integrity. But if we go back to her and say, "No, you have to have 10%," it further fuels the complaints and puts us at greater risk versus we have to address this, right? So it, it-- We do need to... It does thread, there is a needle threaded here, but we also need to make sure that we're taking special care on her side to really understand where that performance is too, and so it doesn't make it larger, right? Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: And I think it's important to kind of define performance in scenarios like this Kandi Gongora 3: உம் Rebecca Taylor: usually with forced ranking, you're comparing someone's performance to the performance of other people on the team to an extent, [00:15:00] right? Maybe it's objectively, you know, do you compare to your goals? But then if, if you've objectively hit the goals that are set for you, Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: still have this forced ranking, then you're now expected to compare employees to each other as a way to lo- like finalize their performance. Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: So what's the risk in that? I mean, know, I, I, I, I, I'm gonna stop. What's the risk in that? Kandi Gongora: Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot of risk, right? Because that's where it comes in where it seems like it's biased, it could be favoritism, Kandi Gongora 5: Yeah Kandi Gongora: and I'm sure, you know, a lot of that came in through the complaints. Kandi Gongora 5: Yeah Kandi Gongora: could be, especially if you look at the groups that are in the lower ranking, like what does that look like compared, right, the minority groups. So that was one of the recommendations I was thinking through is, you know, even when you say... 'cause I think she stated like they all exceed expectations. So, and we use that language. I don't, I don't use that language, but, uh, typical companies use that. Yeah, you use that language a lot. Exceed, meets, you know, below [00:16:00] standards, whatever. That's so vague. We, without truly saying like, what does exceeds look like? What... Are there behaviors in there that we need to see? Are there, uh, what performance metric, performance metrics are in there, and what about your growth potential? So, you know, one of the systems I put in place really looked at those three things. We had behaviors instead of core values. We were very clear on what, how we wanted you to show up at work to best performance. Then we also had very standard performance metrics, but then we also made sure that your growth was at the pace that we need for the organization. So it's really clear. And so for that then if we had more, if they had more structure around that, they could really say, "This is what it looks like." Right now they have no... Everything is, it seems very open to where the employees, it puts us at greater risk. The employee could say like, "But I've done this and this has done that," or they like this person better, or especially like to your point, if they both have the same performance metrics, they both have the hit [00:17:00] goal, then, then what? Then what are you looking at, right? Rebecca Taylor: Are they both put in that bottom tier, or are they both put in that top tier? 'Cause it sounds like what the manager has done, whether intentionally or unintentionally, right? We can only speculate because these are not real people, Kandi Gongora 2: Hmm. Rebecca Taylor: real Kandi Gongora: Sure. Right Rebecca Taylor: But the manager may have, you know, intentionally or unintentionally force ranked them in the bottom. Or, you know, when it come, when it comes down to it, but just didn't put them in that bucket because they didn't have a real reason to consider that poor performance. Kandi Gongora: Right Rebecca Taylor: I think that's the, the, the very hairy part of navigating a lot of this stuff is like, does, you know, what does h- high performance look like when you are, when you're even trying to sort of say specific behaviors? Like I'm, I love that you've mentioned that, you know, you're, you're looking at sort of measurable behaviors Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: Because I do, I... That's sort of a way to just set expectations for here's how, here's how we expect you to per- to perform your job, Kandi Gongora: Right. Rebecca Taylor: hit goals, Kandi Gongora: Great Rebecca Taylor: [00:18:00] things we need you to do the, to do the job. Kandi Gongora: Yes Rebecca Taylor: and then sometimes you can argue, you know, well, if you do things a little bit differently, but you still hit the outcomes, know, where, it, does that mean that maybe it's time to reevaluate your performance system? Kandi Gongora: Right Rebecca Taylor: especially when you look at just, you know, some people just have different work styles where they might need to take a different approach, but they Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Rebecca Taylor: outcome. Does that make them a top, a bottom tier performer, or does that make them meet expectations? You can Kandi Gongora: Right Rebecca Taylor: passionate about this, and I can spiral on this for a long Kandi Gongora: Oh, right. I mean, I think same. I'm sitting here going, "Yes, yes, yes. Keep, Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Kandi Gongora: keep talking, Rebecca." I mean, it is that way. I think too also there... You could think about a high performer. I mean, even using that word is different, unless you have the metrics, right? Because I don't know about you, but I've had people work for me that some people see them as very difficult to manage, Rebecca Taylor: Hmm Kandi Gongora: they're highly creative, right? They're entrepreneurial-like, they're, they like to move fast and break things, and sometimes that can be very difficult to manage, and it feel-- there's a lot of friction. [00:19:00] Or they're very blunt and they will speak up to you, which I love that, right? I want that. But as a leader it can feel, especially if you're a new leader, it can feel very uncomfortable. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: And so that may, you may think like, "Well, yeah, they get their job done and hit their goals, but man, they're so hard to work with. It's hard for me to work with them. There's friction. We have to debate." And that could go into it too. But in reality, they're a great performer because they're innovative, they're moving fast, piloting, breaking stuff. They're honest with you. They don't mind debating with you. Healthy debate's a great thing. Like innovation and truth comes from that. And so I've seen that happen before too, where they're a solid performer, they're just not easy to work with, and so they could also get put in the bottom. Rebecca Taylor: Yes. Oh Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: I have... Okay, moment of vulnerability. I got feedback early in my career, kind of like throughout, you know, the early days when I was figuring myself out. I was early in HR. I was mostly in sort of recruiting, very, you know, competitive type of [00:20:00] environment. I'm a Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: kind of competitive person. Kandi Gongora 3: Uh-huh Rebecca Taylor: and I'd gotten feedback that I was rubbing some of my teammates the wrong way because, you know, I was being too direct with feedback with candidates that they submitted or you know, I was pushing too hard for more resumes for different things, right? Just like little things that you do. And I got feedback that I was not a good team player and all these other things. what was so valuable to me was getting that feedback because in my heart, that's all that I care about, is just being a good team player and showing up. Kandi Gongora 2: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: told me that I was driving everybody crazy, I would not have known what it was I was doing. And so because of that, I'm very, very biased in what I'm about to say. But I believe that when you're trying to evaluate behaviors and whether or not someone's easy to manage or tough to manage, there has to be coachability as the running thread with everything. Kandi Gongora 3: ம்ஹும். ம்ஹும். Rebecca Taylor: it's not, is this person a problem? It's that, it's, is this person doing things that aren't helpful, and are they willing to learn and to [00:21:00] change kind of what that is? And my argument is always when you're measuring someone's behavioral performance like this, it's almost more important to look at the delta change in their Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: more than it is what the behavior is itself. It's the context. ' Cause if you Kandi Gongora 3: Yeah Rebecca Taylor: was bad at something before, and they've gotten a little bit better at it since the last time they were evaluated, that's the right direction, but it might just take more time. Kandi Gongora: Right. Right. Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: that you said that. Kandi Gongora: Yeah, I was going to say, I think that's where, you know, when you said PIP before, to me, I feel like the PIP gets used as a way to work somebody out. It's a long plan. It's usually maybe not as helpful. I mean, sometimes maybe it is, but your example there, that's the way it should happen. It should, it should happen in the flow of work. You should get the feedback when you need it. It shouldn't last too long. We shouldn't wait for a formal review or whatever, whatever companies are doing, and then how do we support them to get there? And I think your example, that happens all the time. Kandi Gongora 5: Yeah Kandi Gongora: Yeah. But we think we're being nice or we're just not going to upset the team if we don't give somebody [00:22:00] real feedback. Yeah. And I'm sure the team could also learn how to appreciate... Once they understood you and you knew like, "Oh, maybe I need to explain who I am a bit better." Yeah, and you just understand me more and, and then I can, I can still be my true self, but the team appreciates me for that. I think, I don't think there's enough time spent around that kind of thing, which goes into like, what would I share with the leadership team? I think the feedback should be more pulse-like and in the flow of work and more, more often than whatever this forced ranking is. And, and it should be based on giving feedback and improving performance, not putting people in a box. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what's so funny in this scenario is that leadership really wants to defend the system, Kandi Gongora: Yes Rebecca Taylor: sometimes leadership wants to defend a system because they believe in it. Sometimes they wanna defend it because they just don't have the energy to change or they're, Kandi Gongora 3: உம் ஹம் உம் Rebecca Taylor: in change, and that is sometimes harder to navigate than them actually just genuinely liking it because, you know, [00:23:00] you have to do a lot of work to convince someone to change something. So I mean, how would you... Like, let's say that we decide that it, that this needs to change because look at the legal risk that's been opened here. You know, we've opened up a can of worms. There's this whole thing. It's now on you to convince leadership that this needs to change in some way. How do you line up that conversation as a starting point, right? Knowing there are probably gonna be multiples, but, like, what approach do you take with leadership to move to the direction of changing this system? Kandi Gongora: Sure. The first approach is going back to what they told me they're trying to solve, the business problem. Because I do believe they, they may be defending it because it's like, you know, HR is too this or that. It's program too complicated. This is easy. I mean, there's all the reasons why they want to, to vend it. And so it's more of saying, understanding like, let's go back to your business problem, what you're trying to solve. Let's look at those metrics. What is it? What is it? Is it performance? Is it that we're not growing? Is it that we need to cut [00:24:00] staff? It-- You know, do we feel like we're overstaffed? What is it? Is it about managing the budget of compensation? ' Cause there's a whole 'nother thing, way we can go about that. Um, what really is it? And understanding that and establishing with them what does success look like? What, what metrics from the business standpoint do you wanna see move, and where do you want it to move to? And are you open to a different approach if we can do that? And how long do I have to prove that, right? And so if they can give me that, then I would come back with, "Here's the approach I recommend." I wouldn't have it... The one thing, I like to co-collaborate with leadership. I don't like to show up with this pretty ta-da, that's all done. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah Kandi Gongora: Because somebody came up with this, somebody owned this, and somebody may feel like they're wrong if we totally go away or they don't get to, you know, co-collaborate with me. So I would bring for-- I would kind of work out loud and bring forth, "Here's what I'm thinking. Here's some approaches." And maybe even have some decision points of we, for example, we [00:25:00] need to calibrate. Maybe we calibrate here or here, or what do you recommend? And give them some, some, um, decision points within the process I'm recommending, so we can have some of the debate around that. Versus just giving them the document and say like, "Give me feedback. What do you think?" Like, really have a constructed conversation where I feel like they can help most. Um, and then agree to... So like, you know, calibration is the, the thing, and then also agree to, um, the timeline I have. And if it's not realistic, then let's talk about that. But, you know, can we pilot this? Can we try it with one business unit? Can we, you know, can we put the forced ranking just on hold for a minute and try this? And really lean in there versus the HR metrics or the HR program and really, you know, get in there with them shoulder to sho- shoulder as a business partner. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. 'Cause it is about kind of speaking their language at the Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: Just getting them to care about the things that you do. Kandi Gongora: Right Rebecca Taylor: there's, there is some [00:26:00] good sort of fodder here just because you're, you know, there are discrimination claims filed, the investigation found that they're warranted, so it's like, okay, there is actually risk. We're probably already gonna be spending money on this Kandi Gongora: Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: problem, right? Kandi Gongora 3: Mm-hmm Rebecca Taylor: the, you know, do we really wanna be in an environment where that just continues to get worse, especially now that it's known? You know, from a-- even just from a pure business perspective, is that really where we wanna be spending our money? And then there's the ethical perspective Kandi Gongora 3: Good night Rebecca Taylor: is obviously not good for... This is not an inclusive practice. This Kandi Gongora 3: உம் ஹம். Rebecca Taylor: for the people in our company. Kandi Gongora 3: ஹம் Rebecca Taylor: you know, so maybe, maybe we need to consider changing. Kandi Gongora: Right. Maybe. I mean, and the, and the whole, like your ringing of the calls about legal, I mean, that's, that is something to hit them with too, because they're gonna care about the bottom line. And it's like, if we go this route, we put something like this in place, pi- pilot it, it shows that we, we acknowledge it and we definitely in good faith are making changes. It shows our employees that too, that we do care and then we, we, [00:27:00] we, we hear them. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Kandi Gongora: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: almost like a, you know, thank you all for speaking up because if you didn't, we wouldn't have known, right? Like, giving people space to say something, and whether it's anonymously or to their manager or to make a for- you know, formal complaint with HR, I think that's also really important because in this story, they never-- HR would never have known, leadership would never have known that this was an issue if the employees who were affected didn't say anything. The manager being insubordinate is almost like a side quest in Kandi Gongora: It is. It is, yes Rebecca Taylor: and this is one of those situations that it's so funny because all you ever hear is HR just works for the company, HR, you know, is blah, blah, blah. I mean, we Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: That's, that's-- Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: here to work for the company. Kandi Gongora: Right Rebecca Taylor: this is one of those scenarios where HR is protecting the company by, if this process does change, right? They are protecting the company and they're pr- by protecting the employees. Like, Kandi Gongora: Exactly Rebecca Taylor: like, really nicely overlaps Kandi Gongora: Hmm.[00:28:00] Rebecca Taylor: lot, there's a lot more of this kind of stuff that we deal with day-to-day that isn't seen, is, like, us protecting the company by protecting employees too. Kandi Gongora: Exactly. Right. I think this is a very good scenario of that, and where if done well, you know, you will go back and communicate the change in a very, you know, a very, uh, meaningful way. So to your point, the employees do know, "Oh, I can speak up, and they do listen to me." And it could truly not only just make the company good and whole again, I guess, basically, but better if we could keep that going. And then if the, if the performance management system really improves and you can get the, the right metrics out of it, like the company could be better overall from this, which is always great to see when s- there's a blip and you're thinking, "Oh no, it's gonna be legal costs and this and that," and it's, we need just to get to work. We need to focus on the work we need to do. But this could actually move us forward so much faster just because this was brought forward and we were [00:29:00] able to address it in a meaningful way. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. This is Kandi Gongora: Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: This is what, this is what it's all about. Kandi Gongora 2: This is Kandi Gongora: the work. This is it Rebecca Taylor: So believe it or not, we're actually at time, which is kind of wild because I feel like we could've gone on a million different other side quests that I tried not to take us down for the sake of time. But before we wrap, I have one final question for you. What is an assumption about HR that you think needs to be challenged? Kandi Gongora: Hmm. I think that assumption is that HR is, you know, HR, we are not business people. Rebecca Taylor: Hmm. Kandi Gongora: I think that, that we, we always think about business, right? We're here-- Like, if you think about what drives business, it's the people. You can have technology and all those things, and yes, you can have AI, but there's still people. And if the people are not working in a great system, then they're not gonna produce. And HR helps create that system and put that system together and make sure that it's working well. And so we do think about it. I just think sometimes we don't use [00:30:00] the business language, so they make that assumption. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, I love that. Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: And believe it or not, we do care about the business because if there's no business, then we also don't have jobs. Kandi Gongora: We're not there. Yeah, exactly. I want, I want the business to win. That makes me so excited. I just, my mechanisms to get there are employees and then taking care of our customers, and then we win. Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. Kandi Gongora: Yeah. Rebecca Taylor: I love that. I love Kandi Gongora: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Taylor: Well, Candy, thank you so much for being here. I had so much fun. I feel like I could chat with you for a while, so Kandi Gongora: I know for sure. Thank you. This is great. I, I enjoy my time with you Rebecca Taylor: Yeah. And thank you everybody for listening, and I hope everybody has a great rest of your day. Bye. Kandi Gongora: Bye