No Moonlighting Policy, No Violation, Still a Problem w/ Miriam Chan of Miro

Rebecca Taylor: Welcome to HR Voices, a podcast where people leaders share their side of the story. We talk about the challenges they're facing, how they're addressing them, and what changes they hope to see as the workplace evolves. This podcast is sponsored by All Voices, the all-in-one employee relations platform. speaker-0: Hello and welcome to HR Voices.

I'm your host, Rebecca Taylor, and I'm here with Miriam Chan, Head of Global People Operations at Marrow. Miriam, welcome. speaker-1: Hi, thanks for having me on your show. I'm so excited to be here.

speaker-0: I'm so excited to have you. For those who are listening, Miriam and I are part of an HR community called Troop HR. So we were connected through there. And I have been so excited to talk to her about this specific scenario.

So no pressure for anybody who's listening, but I think this is going to be a really good conversation. So thank you for being here. speaker-1: Thanks again. And I'm excited.

I also know that we're founding members of Troop HR I saw too. speaker-0: Yeah, better. speaker-1: For like five or six years of this organization. speaker-0: Yeah, I know.

It's like such a good community of like HR people too, because it's just, you know, where do you go when you need help with things? It's usually to your other HR community, which is kind of like the impetus of where this podcast even came from. It's like, you know, we're here to talk things through. We're here to kind of offer some kind of, you know, perspective or thought process for anybody who might be going through some kind of random employee relations scenario that's on their plate.

So this is basically When I have conversations with true people, it's usually a lot like this anyway. So thank you for indulging me. Okay, are you ready for me to read our scenario? Okay.

I'm excited to. So this one's called the Moonlighting AI Consultant. An HR analyst employed full-time discovers she can provide AI prompt engineering consulting services on evenings and weekends for $400 an hour. She does not disclose this to her employer.

Her primary employer has no moonlighting policy. speaker-1: I am ready. Can't wait. speaker-0: Her manager discovers her side practice through a LinkedIn post and raises concerns, not about competition since the consulting is in a different domain, but about loyalty, distraction, and whether she's using a company licensed AI tool for personal gain.

HR must determine what, if anything, the company can actually restrict and whether any policy violation occurred in the absence of an explicit moonlighting prohibition. So, let's take a step back before we dive into all of the specifics of things that we could talk about here. When you look at this from like the fifty thousand foot view, Miriam, what stands out to you as the most risky or the most unclear? speaker-1: Think what is most unclear to me is what is the manager's motivation in bringing this up?

Is there something underlining that is causing her to like snoop to her direct reports LinkedIn? Is she having performance issues? That's one of the things that I'm most concerned about, especially depending on where the manager and employee is located, especially with. privacy, ⁓ laws and so what is the impact of that?

And then the other part is like is there another underlining performance issue that needs to be addressed and maybe that's the motivation of the manager. speaker-0: Yeah. I know I'm with you. It's just like, what are you worried about?

It's not competition. Is it that they're not performing? When I see things like they're they're talking about loyalty, distraction, I'm like, mm, those are usually those are complicated words, right? Like what is loyalty in this kind?

speaker-1: Exactly. There's no like substance to like prove of prove that. And like I mean work is also work. And as long as you're doing a great job and you're performing well, you know, we Yeah, it's just really strong to say loyalty.

speaker-0: Mm. And like do you own how you know, do you own someone's time, especially it sounds like this is white collar work either way, right? Whether they're like prompt engineering, like they're not hourly. It doesn't sound like it's an hourly employee.

So it's like there's no such thing as on the clock in that kind of scenario. speaker-1: Yeah. That's what is like most concerning to me. Other parts that I would say if I if this was like a real life scenario for me, I would also kind of understand a little bit, ⁓ try to dive in deeper on the actual ⁓ use of AI tools.

⁓ checking in because there is no moonlighting policy, which also says something about the organization. But is there an acceptable use policy? And a lot of times right now, our acceptable use policies were written before we had AI tools. And so trying to understand, did she also break policy through that ⁓ path as well?

And then that also requires again a level of privacy concern for us to even check her use of AI tools. So that is also something for us to think about as HR leaders when starting the investigation of what is actually happening here. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah.

And even speaking of privacy, I think it's not even just the AI tools, but it's also like social media privacy, right? Because I know LinkedIn is sort of usually in that gray area when it comes to social media, but it's still that is what it is. It is social media. So, you know, can you really punish an employee for something that they posted on social media?

And if so, for what? Like I think that is the part of this. And this is this is a hypothetical scenario. It's not, you know, it's Technically, I think a lot of us are kind of probably seeing this in different ways, probably at different companies, but like technically this is a s is a fabricated scenario.

But I would say if I could add something to it, it's like not just a moonlighting policy, but I think a social media policy needs to kind of be folded into some of the pieces of this. speaker-1: That's a really good call out. speaker-0: So if this were you, like if you were the HR person who's now kind of trying to figure out like what your move is, what do you do next? Like who are you talking to and what information are you looking to find?

speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. So my approach to HR is that I like to start out with discovery to understand what is actually happening, and then I then define what is actually the problem. I have a very product manager approach to HR. And so my first move would be to speak to the manager, try to understand from them what is actually Prompting them to bring this up to HR?

And is it again, like I mentioned earlier, is this is there an underlying concern that she that the manager has about this employee? Is it again performance? Try to also dive in deeper what she means by loyalty. Has there been you know, stuff that has been happening.

So I think that would be my first move is to have a con conversation with a manager, understand what are her objectives. Is it to, you know, talk to her about her performance? Does she wanna terminate her like what is yeah, why is she bringing this up to us? speaker-0: Yeah.

It kind of I try very hard to be unbiased in these situations, but like in real life, but in these things, because they're fabricated, it's like I can be, you know, I can be a little judgy sometimes, I think. But it sounds like the the the manager sounds like they just don't like it and they're trying to find reasons to justify it professionally because they just don't like that this employee is wor is keeping another job. ⁓ And I think one of the more sort of problematic framings of this is the is that HR has to determine what, if anything, the company can actually restrict.

It's like is that really the goal here? Or is it more like why why is it so to like restriction? I just think that's an interesting speaker-1: Yeah, that is actually a really interesting call out, especially like right now culturally, we actually want our employees to be using AI to be successful. I think like I was reading some stat that you know ninety-five percent of ⁓ workers need to be able to use AI to enhance their work and productivity.

And so by even investigating or if if the company actually punishes this employee for moonlighting, that actually can cause an issue with you know the behaviors that organizations are looking for in employees. And then that can prevent other employees from wanting to explore AI. I know a lot of organizations are saying are starting out with being explorers in AI and kind of starting it from a personal level. So then if you're ⁓ trying to police it, that then can have an adverse effect of the organization as well.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And I I think like the as we're kind of going through the the steps of an investigation like this, it's like you have to talk to the manager to understand their motivations or just what is you know, it's almost like what's the issue here? ⁓ do you talk to the employee in question too at this state?

speaker-1: I think it will depend on the outcome of of the manager. Like ideally, like I would if it is just like they have a concern around loyalty, I would like to coach them. Like that's very circumstantial, like it's very subjective. Like we as an organization, we can't really do much because we didn't have a moonlighting policy.

Yeah. I think the other thing is again understanding the acceptable use policy as well, that would be ⁓ another avenue, like if we really wanted to take some sort of action. And then from there, depending on the organization's acceptable use policy, there are also their the employee privacy, then maybe I'd start looking into speaking actually with the employee, maybe looking in their AI history if the if the organization has policies that allow for that. I'm very cognizant of of the privacy element of this too.

And coupled with the social media piece too. So it's a little a little gray on how best to approach this. I think it's very circumstantial of all of the of the organization, where the employees are at. speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: what's actually been written as policy within the organization. I think it's also really important to keep in mind whatever we would be doing or actioning if we were really sets a precedent as well, especially because we didn't have a moonlighting policy before. speaker-0: Yeah. I was gonna ask you about that because whenever you're dealing with a situation where broadly speaking, it's like someone says they don't like something that's happening, but there technically isn't a policy against it, you're not just trying to figure out what to do about the situation at hand.

It's like you're making decisions that are now gonna impact the rest of these types of situations moving forward of the organization. Not to say policies can't change or evolve, but the steps that you take now. Are the ones that are going to be creating precedent for the steps that you might take the next time this comes up. And I think that's like the part that puts some pressure on HR because, you know, it's almost like you have to think about it through the lens of, you know, why, what are what are we trying to accomplish?

Are we trying to control our people's time more? Are we just trying to regulate their AI usage for work for work that has nothing to do with the current company, which is valid? speaker-1: Like. Which is totally valid.

I would say, you know, we're hearing in the market right now, like Uber Service Now, they're like actually putting limits because companies are blowing through their AI budget because tokens are so expensive, which is also something to also keep in mind with this as well. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And I think like the I'm with you where, you know, when you're even when you're talking to the employee at hand, you do need to find out if they are misusing the AI tools that they have and if they're using those tools for that that job.

I think there's like, you know, the pathway of if they are using the tools to perform that job, then that's a like company property type of thing you need to kind of like navigate. But if they're not, then I'm still on the train of like, then what's the issue? You know? speaker-1: Exactly.

That's why I guess I really want to understand what is 'cause I just feel like there's more to the story that the manager is not sharing. And that's why I think it's really important to have that conversation that HR has a trusting relationship with managers. Like I do think it is also, you know, good that the ⁓ manager is bringing this up to HR. I mean it could also be because she is an HR manager.

Yeah. knows the process, but even more so if she knows the process, like again, why is she bringing it up to us? So yeah. speaker-0: Yeah.

And there's like, you know, you talk about sort of trust, so that, you know, it's like trusted to bring this up to HR. And like you said, it seems like this like HR on HR sort of case right now. ⁓ But there's also like the trust of you know, the employee doesn't seem to it doesn't seem like the employee was doing anything explicitly wrong. If we're assuming like let's assume that if if she's using the the company AI tools to do this job, then that's a clear pathway to like, okay.

That's the thing we have to rectify. ⁓ it becomes a little bit more concrete, in my opinion, then. But if not, which I'm gonna assume not, because usually you're usually if you're moonlighting in these types of things, like they give you a tool to to use. ⁓ so let's say, like, if not, then you start to think about this employee didn't think they were doing anything wrong, because technically they weren't.

They were sharing it openly on LinkedIn. So even though they didn't disclose it, they also weren't hiding it. HR people are all over LinkedIn, like that's where we live. So ⁓ You know, so then it's like, okay, then there's the question of of trust between the employee and their manager after this.

Like, you're making a big deal of a LinkedIn post and are you even talking to me about it first? Like what what is that? speaker-1: Yeah, no, exactly. That's why again I really would like to have a coaching conversation with the manager.

Like w what conversations have you had with the employee about this? If you haven't already, ⁓ like I think I I'd be very curious what their working relationship is between the manager and the employee. It sounds a bit to me unfortunate that the employee manager just doesn't trust the employee for some reason. And I like to always think that, you know, we also always have the best intentions.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I always try to keep that frame that mindset too, because like most people don't wake up and say, I'm gonna blow everything up at work today. Like most people don't say that.

So it's like, okay, we're assuming we are all having good intentions. We're approaching this from like a place of just at least bare minimum professionalism, right? So it's like, let's start there and then work our way to wherever it needs to go. And I think there's like the as the So as they're talking and as they're sort of working through this, you know, I know that the write up says that HR must determine what if anything the company can actually restrict.

But I also think that in doing that, you also need to determine what you will allow. So like, let's say this is now starting to be the groundwork that starts to form a moonlighting policy. So, you know, what would you look at, you know, without without saying you're writing policies like every day, right? But like what are some things in a policy like this that you might that might be helpful to allow and what are some things that might be just clear sort of boundaries to start to establish.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question about like how to go about creating a new policy. Again, I have a very product mindset about this. I would first start out with like discovery of like what is the reason we want to have a moonlighting policy? How is that gonna impact the culture?

Especially with tech companies, we really want people who are self-starters who are exploring outside of their traditional lane? Is that going to be preventing employees to be a bit more creative? ⁓ but also at the same time thinking about, you know, the impact of the business, you know, we obviously want to have the company be successful. We want to have, you know, high profitability.

Would that impact ⁓ the company if you know we have a bunch of our employees moonlighting. Yeah. So really kind of taking that time to really discover like what is the actual problem we're trying to solve, like getting very clear and defining that. ⁓ and then as also part of the discovery of this is thinking about, especially I work in a global environment and thinking about what we can actually legally put in place, you know, especially we have a lot of non-competes are illegal in a lot of jurisdictions now.

So just kind of like thinking about you know that layer as well when we're putting a policy in place. ⁓ and then how do we then especially I think a lot of times we need to think about the long term of the policy. I always like whenever I'm developing a policy, I also want to put like together a framework of like revisiting that policy later if that policy actually needs to continue to exist, if like the environment has changed. speaker-0: Yeah.

I love that because you have to kind of think of policies as living, breathing things because the world changes, you know, the world changes all the time. Work changes all the time. So it makes sense that your policies are just gonna have to, if not change, at least be reviewed and stress tested against the current environment that they live in, right? Yeah.

I think there's like there's something to this also. So, you know, I've had employees who've moonlighted I've also moonlit, like I've had side hustles. I've, you know, I've I've done that. Sometimes they've been, you know, like when I was in my last job in the in the COVID years, the early COVID years, I was also doing resume writing and I was doing like, you know, I was helping folks with that.

and you know, so like as someone who's done this and someone who's managed employees who've done this, moonlighting to me always has some sort of an unspoken need. From the employee, in the sense that there's something that they're trying to get that they're not getting from their job. So either it's they're trying to learn a skill that they're not currently learning in their job and this is their way of doing it, or they're trying to earn extra money because they're maybe not satisfied with their compensation, or maybe just because even if their compensation is appropriately leveled, life happens and maybe they need more than that.

So how do you start to look at that kind of stuff and how do you frame those types of conversations to kind of get to the why are you moonlighting without directly asking it in that way. speaker-1: Yeah, I think this again goes back to having HR having good relationships within the business that we're seeing as partners, that we are a trusting organization to for us to like figure out, yeah, like to your point, like is are they moonlighting because of compensation? Maybe then we need to reevaluate our comp leveling and what is actually to market if it's causing them to you know, moonlight as like an Uber driver on the side or something.

⁓ I think I think the other element you had ⁓ mentioned was like developing a skill. It especially in this example, are we not giving this employee enough enablement to learn AI? And that's why they're also moonlighting? Like what can we ⁓ improve from our talent development piece as well?

and then the third is actually trying to understand the motivation of the employee. Are they maybe wanting to eventually make a career shift in and they want to move away from HR. ⁓ if they want to become like an AI you know, consultant or an AI analyst. ⁓ I know there's a lot of people who are interested in the field of, you know, thinking about workflows and defining ⁓ how AI can like ⁓ transform, you know, our work.

And maybe that's what they want to pivot to. And maybe if that is what they do, maybe they could bring those skills in house because every organization right now needs that. So I think there's some level of really also understanding, yeah, the employee motivation. I think that's a really good thing.

To also call out with this example, too. ⁓ one thing I think I forgot to mention, I think it was most important about all of this theoretical, is like what was very clear with this example is that this employee was moonlighting for a customer of theirs that is in a space that the company is currently. And that's where I think I also want to make sure when you're building out moonlighting policies. is thinking again about again the the impact to of the business.

are they using you know company ⁓ tools and resources to build a competitive product, for instance. speaker-0: Yeah. That's a really, really good call out too. Cause it's like there's also company resources is also the customers and the contacts that you gain through that company too, right?

So, you know, you can't if you if you have like let's say, I don't know, you work for a company that has customers that are in the space that maybe your moonlighting work is relevant to, you can't double dip. Well, I guess like Technically you can, right? There's no law against it as far as I know. But that's where policies come in, is just to kind of like maybe that's where there's some of the other pieces that HR can like restrict and allow.

It's like you can't, you know, any any money that we get from people at X company goes to our company, but anybody else outside of that is fair game. You know, maybe that's an interesting sort of, you know, piece of it to add. So just so you're not, I don't know, you're not double dipping and you're not like causing any complication for yourself or for your for anybody. speaker-1: Yeah, exactly.

So much layers to that example. I love it. Thank you so much, Rebecca, for bringing that to me. And I felt like it was so relevant in today's world with with AI and us kind of figuring out what does a post AI world is gonna look like.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, and I think there's a lot of HR people who are listening to this right now who are might who are probably facing something similar or will face something similar or have in the past, right?

So like as a f fo as a final closing question, what advice do you have for someone maybe who's going through this for the first time? Either maybe they're a junior HR person who's like never experienced this before and is trying to figure out where to begin. speaker-1: Yeah, that's a great question. And ⁓ I'm gonna share some advice that I got from my HR leader many years ago, and that is to keep up with what is happening in the world.

I think sometimes as HR people we can focus in our own subject matter expertise and not see what is happening outside of that lens, and I think you know, keeping up with what's happening in the market, keeping up with what's in the news as well. I personally find this enjoyable is like listening to product podcasts, because I like to approach HR as if I'm a product manager. And I think that's kind of where the landscape is going. And so I really encourage someone who's starting out in HR to actually be a good HR person that you're well rounded in what is actually happening in the world because you know so much of what's happening impacts on how you show up also as an employee too.

And so that also builds empathy and an understanding. speaker-0: ⁓ it's so good. Can't bury your head in the sand. You gotta know what's going on.

Love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. And thank you so much for being here. This was so fun.

Maybe we should do a part two because I feel like there's still so many pieces that we could keep talking through. Let us know. Yeah. And if you're listening to this, let us know if you want a part two, because maybe we'll come back and we'll keep chatting.

But in the meantime, thank you, Miriam, so much for being here. And thank you, everybody, for listening. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Bye.

speaker-1: Bye.