Why Manager Support Needs to Move Beyond Training with Sara Canaday

Speaker A: The right use of AI is what is going to help leaders feel like they're shifting from overload to more clarity, getting on top of things, being more confident, not having that cognitive overload that's constantly keeping them questioning things.

Speaker B: You're listening to HR Superstars, a podcast brought to you by 15Five. On this show we talk to strategic people, leaders who are making a meaningful impact in their organizations and shaping the future of work. So get ready to be inspired and discover the secrets behind building high performing teams and fostering a culture of growth and thriving. The future of HR starts here. Hey everyone, and welcome to HR Superstars. Managers are the most important lever we have for employee performance, engagement and retention. And yet the way we actually support managers hasn't always kept up with what we're asking them to do. We keep adding to their list. They need to be a coach, a strategic thinker, stay on top of well being, hit their numbers, and without support for all of those things and the many things I didn't even mention on that list, managers can easily head to burnout. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Sarah Canada to talk about what managers genuinely need to succeed and how HR can show up as a real partner to them. And, and how does AI fit into all of this? Sarah's a leadership strategist, speaker and author who helps driven but maxed out leaders. Rethink those outdated habits, cut through the noise, and just lead with greater clarity and direction. She's known for turning leadership theory into everyday impact and giving leaders practical tools that they can work with. Something we love here on HR Superstars. Her books, along with her LinkedIn learning courses and innovative AI leadership tools have made her a trusted voice on modern leadership on all across the globe. So, Sarah, welcome to HR Superstars. It's so great to have you. Can you give me a little bit of the movie trailer version of your career?

Speaker A: Certainly. Glad to be here. Like many of your listeners, I spent the early part of my career climbing the corporate ladder, right? And I tell people I was in the very sexy industry of insurance, operational side of things, but nevertheless, uh, insurance industry, first pnc, Property and Casualty, and then workers comp. Worked my way up primarily either through sales, uh, into operations, had a stint as an OD manager for several years and then went back into operations. And the part of the job that I loved the most was what I learned through leading others. The hardships, the fulfilling part of it, all of it. And so when I reached a VP level, I made a decision to leave and start My own boutique leadership development firm and executive coaching.

Speaker B: I uh, love it. Sarah, let's start talking a little bit about manager capacity because that is just a topic that's constantly coming up with HR leaders and I think is almost becoming just exponentially greater and greater as the days go by. You've said before that the pressure managers are under today are bigger than ever. And you know, it doesn't even compare to what you experienced as a vp. What specifically feels different now?

Speaker A: Well for starters, the pace, the pressure, the amount of data and information that's coming at leaders these days doesn't compare. Then add on top of that the expectations. Right. Used to be it was all about hitting metrics. Right. It was a performance based pressure that I know I felt. Right. But nowadays you can read about it. I talk to leaders every day depending on what cycle we've been through. We've got to protect our employees mental health. We've got to accommodate for supply chain issues and the anger that causes our customers. We have got to be trauma informed. We've got to facilitate social and rest conversations or at least open the door for listening sessions. All of this stuff that frankly leaders aren't equipped to do, they haven't been trained to do it, they aren't expert in this area. So the sheer amount of work and the uncertainty and the data that's coming at em, um, and then all these other expectations.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it definitely feels like even in the last five, six years, especially through Covid and afterward, already managers had so much to do. But there is like this other level. Right. Kind of anything that's happening in an employee's world, whether it is personal or professional or it's something happening with the business, the customers, the board, it all comes back to managers who just sit at the center of. Sometimes it can feel like every problem possible. Right. And what's their role in it? When you look at managers who are really struggling, how often do you see it being a, ah, skills gap versus really a systems problem?

Speaker A: Yeah, I would say that I mostly see it as a faulty system problem. Rarely is it very specifically a skill gap. Sometimes it's a fit or behavior gap. But a lot of times what I'm hearing from leaders is that they are purpose driven, they want to make an impact, but they're hijacked by never ending to do lists, a feeling of playing whack a mole with priorities that keep changing. And, and so these intentions and the very reasons they got into leadership to begin with. Right. Which is to be part of a company's evolution to be part of helping grow the people on their team. All those seem to get put in the back burner because they have to be reactive instead of purpose driven.

Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. How do you see that systems gap actually creating a gap too between HR teams and managers? Right. Oftentimes hr, I think wants to support managers. But what we believe in theory will help them versus what they need can be two very different things.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Two things.

Speaker A: I think when it comes to helping leaders, you know, it falls on MADI coming up with a profile of the best in class leader and what are the competencies of that leader? What has helped them or proven to make them successful?

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: We need to train around that. And what happens is right now what leaders need is not what I call a just in case training. They need a just in time, which is really shifting, I think, from training to enablement. Right. So we need to find ways to enable leaders to get their job done. In the messy moments. Right. When priorities are conflicting, they're struggling to have conversations that would be from a concept of really supporting leaders. The other angle I think is because HR includes more than obviously just training, training and development. I think back to a time when I was at the company and at this point I think I was a VP and we had an HR partner who was excellent. They would come to our team meetings and it was really about them understanding our priorities, our pressures and who the players were. And that way when things surfaced, it was not a disconnect between oh, here's the HR policies and here's how to interpret them. It was, okay, I know what's going on. I know your ecosystem, I know the environment, I know who's involved. How do I best support you as a thinking partner right now? Uh, I know that's hard to do. Right. Because we're speaking to HR partners who are in companies where they're supporting so many areas. So I know that's hard to do, but it's an example, I think of where I think HR partners can be a real trusted advisor, not just a policy interpreter, if you will.

Speaker B: That makes sense. Well, and I guess is that how you see hr? Hm. Moving to those just in time trainings that ah, being able to take the business context, what's actually happening in the team and applying it to a problem.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, but I think it's more again, I think it's the entire ecosystem of what training can offer or what HR leadership support can look like. Right. It is not just, just in time training Meaning they can go to a learning management system and pop in their question. Right. That to me is more like a chatbot. It is everything it is offering. For example, the conversation starters, literally. Right. I do this when I do work with groups of leaders and they're brilliant, but sometimes if they just had a way to start the conversation, they're confident in the rest of it. They just want to make sure it started in a way that's productive, not off putting or not causing anybody to build their walls. And so if they just had a starting point, a jumping off point, same thing goes for if they need to present their priorities in a way that really resonates with their team, in a way that their team will engage and enroll. Well, not all leaders find themselves creative and great at telling a story or coming up with an analogy. So maybe you offer some guidelines to leaders of how to frame something. What are their talking points? If you want to make sure that leaders aren't just cascading priorities, but they're bringing them to life, then offer them talking points. A, uh, one pager. Right. Offer peer level and guided support so that people can pop in and out of peer groups to get feedback on something that they're debating or they're struggling with. Again, there are so many things that can be done outside of taking leaders away from the middle of their work to figure something out.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Sarah is oftentimes HR teams, right. Can lean very heavily just into the training. Like we only have these 60 minutes or 30 minutes sometimes I'm going to do whatever I can, but I think just the way people are working today now we have to find ways that meet the flow of work that managers are in. Right. To your point, not everyone's going to have the time or even if they have the time, be really present in those trainings, being able to have those on demand resources or just have the conversation quickly of, um, okay, I know you're about to go into a tough conversations. Here's three things you could do that I think will make it better. How do we bring more of that coaching directly to managers right in the moment they need it. Because I think what can be hard too on um, the opposite end with managers is knowing when to come to hr. Right. If they believe that HR is the policy interpreter, only they don't know that. Can I ask Sarah that, like I'm nervous about this conversation I'm going to have and what could I do to like feel better going into it or what do I Do if my employee says this or that and I don't feel prepared for it, building that relationship is so important. And that's what I hear you kind of saying through this too is holistically just thinking about support as so much greater than a singular training. Right. It's the relationship, it's the tools, it's that ah, everyday interaction that's really helping your managers when they need it.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: The most.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: What do you see, Sarah, as the difference, uh, between I guess helping managers just be more productive versus helping managers create meaningful impact and what's the role that HR has to play there?

Speaker A: A lot of it comes down to clarity, providing clarity first of all and helping leaders get a better sense of how their time is better spent. I think those are two big ones. Right. So if HR partners can be that sort of trusted advisor and quasi leadership coach. Right. If you can get leaders on the right track in stepping back from being reactive and saying what is the highest and best use of my time, what am I working on that's really going to move the needle for my team, for the company and yeah, even for myself as a growth leader, then I think that is critical and can domino into other things.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love that we talk a lot about that at 15:5. We are having a lot more conversations this year too, just around value and waste of like, can you actually identify whether you're a leader, an individual, what is the highest value your role brings to the company and then where are you actually spending time? That has nothing to do with that is wasteful. Right. And some of those wasteful things we have to do we've got to get done. Especially in functions like HR where it's just certain things need to run no matter what. But just being able to have that distinction in your mind helps everyone really prioritize in such a different way and also feel connected to their work in a much more meaningful way. Right. Like nobody wants to leave their 8, 10 hour day sometimes in SaaS companies feeling like, was I just wasting my time? We really want to be able to find that meaning and impact. So I love, I love the way you think about that, Sarah. And Sarah, you've got a recent book which I want to hear a little bit about and specifically about how you think about coaching for managers. Tell me a little bit about kind uh, of what led you into this book and how you think about coaching.

Speaker A: In the past five, maybe seven years, the expectations that leaders be coaches has become more and more prevalent and I think the expectation there, but perhaps not the Support, Right. Because I think leaders want to coach. Maybe not always right. It's a time consuming endeavor, or it can feel like it, but they haven't been trained to do it right. There's an assumption that if you're a leader, you're automatically gifted at being a good coach. And I don't think that's necessarily true because I do think there are some very specific skill sets of what it takes to coach well. And so that's partly why I did it, because I again, talk to leaders every day who want to do it but just don't have the confidence level. And so they either avoid it or they do a drive by, what I call drive by coaching. Or in some cases they may make things worse and not better, or they see it as punitive instead of something that is helpful and, uh, desired by the people that they lead. So that's why I did it. And I did it in a way that I wanted it to be like other things I do. Right? It's practices, it's helpful tips, it's jumping off points, it's a way to organize your prep so that you're ready to coach. It's a way to have some questions already in your back pocket so that you're not struggling. And of course, now with AI at our fingertips, it's a way to use AI to practice before it has implications in the real world.

Speaker B: I love that. Tell me a little bit, Sarah, for our listeners, what do you think is the big thing most people miss about coaching? Because if I'm here, I'm hearing you, and I'm reflecting on the first training I took years ago around what it meant to be a coach. And I remember in that session I was like, whoa, this is not what I thought. I thought I was coaching for years and I was 100% not doing it. Where do you think most people are missing the mark?

Speaker A: Well, I think there's a confusion, right, because there's such a nuance between instructing training, advising, mentoring and coaching. It gets really messy and, uh, they're all sort of distinct. But let's face it, in one coaching conversation, you can move in and out of several of those things. And it's not wrong, by the way, it can happen. But getting clarity on what makes coaching distinct, which is really about being able to ask the right questions for two reasons. One, at the beginning, to get a sense of what does this person I'm coaching, what is their perspective on it? How far or close are they to seeing what is going on, what needs to happen It's a data point. I always say that when you ask a question at the beginning, it's not gratuitous, it's for you to get more information. And then when you ask questions moving forward, it is to get their perspective, to get their take on what maybe is preventing something or what they could do different. Because that's how they grow. If you are just giving them the answers, then um, you're not really growing the person. You're not getting them to think critically. And so that's what distinguishes. Now I always, I always tell people that for the purist in the world, they would call me half coach, half consultant. Right. Especially with executives because if you use this, what they call the Socratic method, which is where you're constantly saying, and why do you think that happened? And where did that take you?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: If you do it constantly, it can be very frustrating for the other person. So I always tell leaders, start with open ended questions. But there's nothing wrong in saying here's what's worked for me. Or would you like to hear what I think may be keeping you from getting to the next level?

Speaker B: Right. Yeah. It's being able to find that balance between the two things. But I do think you bring uh, about a very good point. Which managers just being under so much pressure, it's hard for them today to take the time to just sit back and ask some of those questions. Even if it ultimately leads to something I often ask in those one on one conversations is do you want my advice on this to move it forward or do you want me to help you come up with the answer? What is going to be the thing? And sometimes I also as a leader have to make that call of like, I know I really want to work with you on this, but we're on a deadline, we need to get going. I'm going to be a little more directive now, but like, then let's come back and do some coaching around this. You have to be able to dip in and out. But what you said that really stood out with me is that this is a technique and a skill that needs to be trained, that needs to have the time and the space and the practice to be done well. Yet it's one of those things we put on the list of managers you should be great at, uh, coaching, feedback, mentoring, advice like information strategy, data analytics, all of those things which are totally unique, distinct skills we just don't train people on.

Speaker A: Right. Just measuring employee performance is no longer enough.

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Speaker A: With 15Five's performance management platform, you can easily set up review review cycles, collect ongoing performance data, track employee goals and deploy customized campaigns that empower managers to drive growth.

Speaker B: Learn more@15five.com or click the link in the show notes. Tell me a little bit more too about you had mentioned in there AI, right? Kind of AI being at managers fingertips, making some of this a little bit easier. Where do you see AI being a really key unlock for leaders right now?

Speaker A: I talk so much about how tapped out leaders are and how it's not a lack of commitment, it's not a lack of competency, it's a lack of capacity. That's what I'm seeing. Right. And I think the right use of AI is what is going to help leaders feel like they're shifting from overload to more clarity in some cases edge getting on top of things, being more confident, not having that cognitive overload that's constantly keeping them questioning things like they keep doing, but they're kind of still questioning am I making the right decision? Am I working on the right things? Have I picked the right person to do this job? And I think again, because so much is swirling again the AI can be an incredible tool. It does not take away a leader's judgment. It can if a leader lets it. But uh, that's the key. The leader at the end of the day, it's their discernment, it's their decision, it's their judgment and their experience. But it has had and can have huge implications for leaders. I think right now when you hear or read an article about AI&M leadership, it's very much limited to how the executive teams can make sure that AI is uh, adopted in certain ways across the organization. It's about optimal use cases for AI, whether it's agentic, uh, type AI to take over processes, chatbots for customers. Nobody's really talking about how can leaders use AI to do their jobs. Now uh, that may scare some people, but I think it's the reality. I think a lot of leaders are dipping their toes, they're using it anyway. So why not really grab hold of it as a tool. Back to this idea of an enablement system for leaders to better do their jobs and then train leaders on how to exactly how to do this. I mentioned that I'm doing just that in sort of a different way but a way that helps leaders in the flow of work. So it's leadership first, technology second. And it's also quick learning but more heavy on the execution of their actual work.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. Well, because I think there is an unfortunate fear that I understand why some people have, especially for leaders. Right. That AI is coming to take their job to be a manager. I think I just saw a report the other day that was talking about how many Americans would want to be led by like an AI agent instead of a person. It was like 80 something percent of people said, no, I don't want anything to do with that. Which I'm not surprised. Like we all still crave human connection and human leadership. But I can certainly elevate the best parts of what we do in our jobs as managers that has some opportunity to be automated, to be put into a process so that we can show up with our judgment fully. Because when I think about, again, coming back to all you've said around how overloaded managers are, we also entrust managers to have to make really important strategic decisions about our business, whether it's the direction we're going, if we're going to do one thing or not the other. What's the team we have, what's the skills we're building? That's the space we need managers to have as humans to show up and say, what's the right call for the business? Is this the best decision? I need to think through it. Think through what the risks and the rewards are and make a call that the business can trust. I'm doing the right thing on Right. But when they don't have that time and space, the likelihood that they're going to, um, like just make an off the cuff decision, they're not going to think through it. They're going to say, fingers crossed, let's hope this works is more likely. So if I can be their partner of AI, I need you to give me that on demand feedback that I need. I need you to help me build some skills. Can you look at my priorities and tell me what I'm missing so that I can have this time? To really be a leader, I think is just such a powerful thing that we haven't fully stepped into yet and that I think a lot about what's holding managers back. What do we do to help managers feel more engaged and excited about that journey?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think managers are saying, oh gosh, one more tool I have to learn. Right. And it's something they feel maybe they need to get through or play with or test. And we know what happens with that kind of stuff. Right. It gets put on the back burner. They just don't have the time. And so again, if done Right. Leaders can see that they can take a real challenge in the middle of their day. Instead of saying, oh, I need to carve out time to play around in AI, no, take a challenge and go, okay, I'm going to take this to AI. That's a whole different way of looking at it. And it is amazing. Right. You can ask AI, push back on this idea, tell me what I might be missing, tell me what this might mean for this stakeholder. How might they react? Here's a message I need to send. Can you make sure my tone is there and that there's nothing here that might, you know, fire back at me? There are so many use cases for leaders in the flow of their work. It is amazing.

Speaker B: Exactly. Well, that's that just in time thing you were talking about earlier, right. That in the exact moment where the manager's feeling the most pain, how do we get them that tool right there in their hands to help them?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I know right now if you're in a large company, you may have Copilot, you may have Claude, some of those are talking to each other. But that's the other struggle is there's so many tools that leaders don't know which one to go to. They can't remember which one does what best and. Or they are literally manipulating four or five AI tools at a time. And that right there can be overwhelming.

Speaker B: Exactly. No, I think the tools that are going to be most successful for leaders when it comes to AI and enabling them are those that one learn the manager instead of the manager having to teach them. Right. As much as it can, just integrate into their work and understand who they are. That. Right. Context, have a really rich set of data to work from. That's what's going to be so powerful and make it so it's not. I need to connect Claude to these five things and I've got to do this and I have to make sure I remind it of that. It needs to operate like a real partner, just seamlessly into everything that you're doing. Because managers will not spend the 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes you need them to do to train another LLM. It has to really be actively and proactively working for them.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And then on top of that, the restrictions within their own companies, firewalls, what's connected to their API, what's not, it can feel insurmountable. Uh, on top of an already big to do list and pressure.

Speaker B: Exactly. And that's a real opportunity for HR leaders to think about what are the tools they're bringing into an organization that are helping. Well, I don't want to say helping, but really enabling managers, right. To use your words from earlier, are you bringing in tools that are making this easier, that you're taking kind of care of all those pieces? So it's like, here's something that's plugging into the right data, the right context can help you with your team. And again, just making that one less thing for them to worry about. But I also see HR nowadays sometimes stepping back from that discussion of, well, it's not me that's an it or that's a tech discussion that's for other leaders. It's like this is really a time for us to lean in because we know the value and the uniqueness that humans bring to their job and to our cultures and why we don't want to lose that. We also know the pain points of everyday work much better. Right. Than executives, even if they're peers of ours or not. And so it's just such a prime opportunity to really transform the way work is getting done that I hope more and more HR leaders don't fear and just lean into as much as they can, even if they don't know all the answers yet.

Speaker A: Right. And who else? But I think HR is going to be able to help leaders ensure that they're modeling the right use of AI and that they're imparting some things to their teams about AI, Whether that's false reliance. Right? Because we all know that AI can make mistakes and. Or it's a lens. Right? Whatever you put in it is going to give you a lens back. It doesn't mean it's the answer. Right? So we still have to train leaders on first understanding it themselves, but being able to impart those things to their teams. The other thing that's happening is collaboration is so important, but the more people are using AI, the more isolated they're becoming because they have their little mini thinking partner, right? Or productivity partner. And so it's going to be incumbent upon the leaders to say, okay, I get it, we're all in our vacuums using AI, but we need to come back together and still collaborate. Even if we're using AI as a team, let's see what it comes up with and we talk about it as a team. There's so many of those risks that people are worried about with the use of AI that I think HR is going to be the leader in saying, here's how we mitigate those risks and what are they? Let's point out the risk and how can we mitigate them?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I couldn't agree with you more on that, Sarah. It's so interesting, right, Because I feel like even when, again, like, if we think back to Covid, right, everyone was so worried that, well, when we go remote, no one's going to figure out how to work together and we're going to lose all these things and nothing's going to function. And then to your point, like, you find ways of working, you have to be very intentional about it as a remote organization. Right? 155 has always been fully remote and still is, but we have to do things very differently to make sure we don't lose moments of connection and collaboration. And that's not that dissimilar to what we face now, even with AI because to your point, it's very easy for me to spend a few hours having agents do things, having that thought partner, but I always have to just make sure when I'm going back into a team meeting, I'm asking my team, what did you do with it this week? Or, hey, what answer did you come up with? Let's compare them. Let's go share with other teams who might be having a hard time figuring out how to adopt this. There's still so much opportunity for collaboration, learning. And we're seeing, like, the very tip of the iceberg of what's possible now with AI to think that, like, we don't have room or space to share. It's just so silly. Like, we're going to have so much to share and to learn from one another, and that's why the human element of AI is so important. But I know a lot of people worry about losing authenticity, right? Kind of losing who they are as a person, especially as a leader. What do you say to managers who resist AI because they're worried about kind of losing a piece of themselves using it?

Speaker A: Well, you know, I always say that at the end of the day, it is still your thoughts and your voice, right? Because much of the time that you're using AI, you have to give it context. You have to put in a draft strategy, a draft summary. Sure, you can say, I need a draft and start from scratch. But at the end of the day, as a leader, hopefully you are revising the draft because it doesn't reflect exactly what you need to say. It doesn't slant the way you need it to slant or doesn't include something that you need to include. So at the end of the day, you're still the driver if you're using it. Wisely. And so you don't necessarily have to give up authenticity. Uh, you're not giving up your voice, you're not giving up your judgment, and nor should you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think there are many managers who feel like, well, am I going to lose a skill? Am I going to lose who I am? And I think it is. It's just that awareness of you certainly could. Right. There are certainly people who use AI tools and just plug something in, let it come out, copy, paste it and say goodbye. But, like, we also have the capacity to say, I'm going to interact with this, I'm going to read the draft, I'm going to give it feedback, and I'm going to give the AI feedback. I'm going to engage in this process. I certainly know when I first started using different LLMs for writing help, there was a part of me that I was like, am I going to forget how to write? Am I actually just going to completely forget all the things that I know in my own voice? And it is just making sure that you carve space for yourself. So I think that's such a good reminder that every manager has a voice, and using AI does not take that away. Sarah, as we wrap up this conversation for our listeners, tell me, what would you say, especially for HR leaders? What's the one thing you would want them to change starting today, to show up, um, as a real authentic, more impactful partner to managers?

Speaker A: I think asking a question, right, Go to whoever they serve. And because I think sometimes leaders, they don't know what to ask us, right. Because of this overwhelm. So if you could even prompt and jumpstart the people you serve by saying what could be a challenge today and give them like a little menu. Are you struggling with a hard conversation today? Are you challenged by never ending priorities or priorities that keep shifting? If you ask HR partners, they're going to tell you there's probably the top 10 that they see over and over again, or even the top six challenges. So if you sort of just give leaders a, um, place to say, oh, that sounds like me, then I think they can better connect to being of service to them as opposed to waiting to see if leaders have the presence of mind and the clarity and the space to say, how can I use my HR partner? Or how can HR help me? Right.

Speaker B: I, um, love that. That's beautiful. The best practical advice. I'm a big fan of a little menu of an optional choices. I think that's great. Sarah, where can our listeners find you? Learn more about you and learn more about the incredible books that you've authored.

Speaker A: Uh, LinkedIn is probably the best place. I do a lot of my engagement there, do a lot of my writing and sharing practical tools and resources and strategies on LinkedIn. And obviously my website. Whatever's on LinkedIn is going to be on my blog post as well. My website is sarahcanaday.com, and there's no H on Sarah. And it's Canada. Just like Canada with a Y at the end. And same for LinkedIn. You could look me up on LinkedIn. I'd love for you to follow me, connect, whatever you prefer. Ask me a question. I'm, um, open to it all.

Speaker B: That's incredible. Thank you so much for joining me today, Sarah. Really look forward to it. And thank you for all your insights.

Speaker A: Of course. Thank you for having me.

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