HR as the Anchor in AI Transformation with Jeff Smith

Speaker A: AI is here now. It's accelerating. Organizations that use AI effectively, meaning not too much, but also not too little, certainly not too slow, are going to be more successful than those that don't.

Speaker B: You're listening to HR Superstars, a podcast brought to you by 15Five. On this show we talk to strategic people, leaders who are making a meaningful impact in their organizations and shaping the future of work. So get ready to be inspired and discover the secrets behind building high performing teams and fostering a culture of growth and thriving. The future of HR starts here. Hey everyone, it's Karina Young, VP of People here at 15 5. I'm so excited to have you here on today's HR Superstars episode. Leaders know AI is changing how work gets done and most are already using it to summarize. Meetings move a little faster on the things that they were already doing. And that was fine as a starting point, but we are well beyond that place now. The companies actually pulling ahead aren't just using AI to speed things up. They are completely rethinking how work happens, what gets done, who is doing it, and what does good even look like when human intelligence meets artificial intelligence. And the pace of this shift has been rapid. We went from curiosity to the board needs to see ROI almost overnight. Least it feels that way. And that's not that usual slow adoption curve, the long window of experimentation on the sidelines. If you're on the sidelines, you're not just behind, you're opting out of one of the biggest transformations in how work gets done. What leaders need right now is not a handful of reactive, hype driven initiatives. It's a clear plan for how work, talent and expectations are going to change. Which is why I'm so excited to have my colleague, author and COO at 15 5, Dr. Jeff Smith here with me today as he spends a lot of time in this question, right, what does this moment actually require from leaders and organizations? And how can you help take your company to that next right step? Not just the easy one. Jeff, as he's writing his next book on AI, uh, transformation is thinking about all these things and really figuring out where is work going to accelerate or where is it going to stall?

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: So, Jeff, first of all, welcome back to HR Superstars. You've been a guest before. Give, um, me and our listeners the movie trailer version of how you got inspired to write this book and why this topic matters to you.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks so much, Karina. Obviously a big fan of yours and of HR Superstars podcast, um, as well. Um, thrilled to be here to talking about this really critical topic. You know, it's once in a generation, maybe once in a century type of transformation that really matters for all organizations. And one reason that I'm writing about this, talking about this all the time, is because of how important it is. AI is here and it's accelerating. CEO, C level executives, they want AI adoption agents and roi. Even if they're not sure exactly what that means, they still want it. But also this has a real human impact as well because people are concerned about developing the skills that they need. How is this going to affect me? Am I going to become, you know, obsolete or replace? Is this something that I should even participate in? What future opportunities does this have for me? And then to the point you made this change has happened so quickly. Like from curiosity to AI assistance being used in many tasks today, almost everyone's using it in one way or another. One of the reasons that this is so exciting to me is how quickly this transformation is happening. Organizations that use AI effectively, meaning not too much, but also not too little, certainly not too slow, are going to be more successful than those that don't. But the change management, of course, is a technical question. You know, there's so many things to keep an eye on there, but also it's a real human question.

Speaker B: I love, uh, it. I mean, even just hearing that, Jeff, though, I imagine our listeners feel like the world of what is possible here is so big and so incredible. How do you explain the pace of what's happening to leaders who feel like they're keeping up, but there's something they're missing, there's like something bigger that they're just struggling to, to grab to.

Speaker A: That's kind of the hallmark of this period of change where again, the acceleration is here, companies are using it, but staying up on top of everything that's moving at all times is really challenging. And this is why it's so important for leaders to be thinking about how do we distribute and delegate the accountability for building this new way of working throughout our organization? Leveraging again, executives, leaders, managers, key people with critical skills in your organization. HR needs to be involved at the forefront. It, finance, others, you know, coming together alongside the builders themselves, ICs to build these new ways of working. And I think if you're a C level executive right now and you're trying to stay on top of what's possible in every single function and every single model, with the way that work is being rewritten right now, it's going to be really challenging. And you do need to decide and delegate. How can others be helping you rebuild work around this new sense of possibility?

Speaker B: Yeah. You know what I hear when you say that is not so much that the biggest gap today is an underinvested investment in AI, but the underthinking of the strategy. Right? Like, what is it that we're actually doing and moving toward instead of just accumulating all the things, all the skills, like, how are we actually deriving real value from it?

Speaker A: There's a lot of obsession about what AI can do, because what it can do is incredible. You know, like, um, my own experiences with using Claude, for example, are remarkable, um, and really amazing. And we use, uh, Vaughn from Ratl, and like, what it can do is sensational. And Gong's AI is awesome. But also, uh, you need to start with what are the right advice investments here that align with what we want to accomplish as a business? And how do we explore use cases that have clear success metrics that align with where we need to go as a business? Like, if you start with the obsession with what's possible with the technology, which, by the way, is something that almost can't be overstated at this point because it's remarkable, then you can lose track of, like, hey, how are we turning this incredible new, you know, technology and the way we can think about designing systems and breaking down workflows and eliminating waste, organization, increasing automation, allowing humans to be more human. Like, whenever we think about all those things, how do we orient those things back to creating value to the different stakeholders that matter to a business? Whether that's, you know, investors, it could be shareholders, your customers, your employees, the business itself. Like, how do you connect, uh, AI investment and all of your strategic decisions and resource allocation that's downstream from those back to what matters the most to creating value in your business and not just like, oh, my gosh, this technology is so cool. Everyone needs to use it. And it's like, yes, that is true, everyone needs to use it. But in what way? Such that, uh, you're operating coherently around accomplishing something together as a business that matters and the people are willing to pay for.

Speaker B: Yeah, you've compared this transformation before, Jeff, to be more like steam power to electricity than like my Nokia to an iPhone. What do you think is making this so significant? Like, why is it that big of a shift?

Speaker A: The part that makes this more like steam power to electricity is that, um, whenever you think about, like, steam power and how factories were literally designed around the limitations of using steam and the type of power that it could provide where you had these buildings where every almost cubic inch mattered, because every little bit you went away from this central turbine, basically you experienced this loss in power. And like you were just jamming people and systems together and there were belts everywhere and conveyors and it was so dangerous. And then whenever it started to be electricity, you were could actually just deliver power to the person and you didn't have to just bring the person sitting on top of another person basically to this system. And again, it allowed for the redesign of, uh, physical space and management and operations and supply chain and where these factories could even be located. Because in steam power, you needed to be around a water source and basically a coal mine and everything else. This has required an entire rethinking. And I think that's the possibility here as well, where this is a fundamental rethinking of work being done. Yes, these tools can be so helpful in assisting you in doing your, your work the way it is. But also it's an opportunity to zoom out and ask ourselves, hey, what are we trying to accomplish here as a business? And then how do we do that from a blank page with this new technology at our side, such that we're not limited by our current thinking, our current workflows, hey, it's always been this way. Hey, whenever this existed, we had to do this. And it's such an interesting and exciting time. But it's a change of that magnitude again. It's not just like, oh, this is going to make things 3% better. This is going to make things such that you don't recognize knowledge work companies in a few years compared to what they are now versus what they'll be, because the work is just going to be rewritten and rethought.

Speaker B: Tired of high turnover costs draining your resources? 15Five's performance management platform helps you find and act on employee turnover risk before it's too late. From continuous feedback loops to manager coaching and training that improves role clarity, recognition and retention. Learn more@15five.com or click the link in the show notes. How do you encourage leaders to actually redesign work? Right. Like, I imagine that the people who were moving from the steam factories into factories powered by electricity, like, how do you break the mold of what you know, right? And what you've been working in for so long? I think that practical step can be really hard for leaders because in theory, I'm sure they're hearing this. They're like, yeah, great, Jeff, I get it. But like, how do I do that? How do I actually bring this to life.

Speaker A: It's a great question and I think it can be challenging, you know, to do and it is hard to bring fresh new thinking in. And I think gathering perspective from throughout your organization is one way to do it. You know, oftentimes the people who see the greatest opportunities for rethinking how work could or should be done are the ones who are actually closest to the work themselves. And again, involving them in the creation of this with a centralized approach to, you know, hey, we need shared services, shared context, shared data, shared permissioning. But then also, hey, there's this new set of tools and skills that you can be using and applying them to the problems that, you know, this part of the business is tasked with solving. Whenever I think about, you know, workflows as an example, it's really about this sequence of steps that reliably create stakeholder value. So, you know, thinking about like, hey, the workflow starts here, here's where it's connected to, here's the inputs, here's the step by step, here's who owns what by, when the output, the different feedback loops, the data that's generated, how does it learn? And then there's going to be certain parts of workflows as you're rethinking them that can be automated, some of them can be assisted, some of them are human. And then sometimes whenever you reevaluate workflows, you realize like, hey, we don't need that step anymore. And in order to create valuable workflows, it is so important again to be thinking about this from the what do I want to accomplish place and not how do we accomplish it today? All these things need tied back to greater business value and those higher level business objectives. Or as a leader, or as an HR leader, you're like, oh my gosh, we put so much effort into doing this. We've had AI days, we've done this and that. We ran 70 one pilots and we're still in this place where we're not sure what the impact is. Again, this requires a skill around systems thinking as well, which to me is the combination of human intelligence, judgment, reasoning, taste, the things that make humans great AI software, data processes, feedback loops, and then checks and balances in your system. So there's an opportunity for a lot of learning and a lot of growth at every level of organizations around this type of thinking.

Speaker B: Yeah, and that's why I think leaders need to invest that time in what is that system thinking. Right. How do you really think about redesigning work? Obviously starting with to your point, what is the business trying to achieve and are you actually redesigning in service of those outcomes? And sometimes it is just you need to be working with people who you can be vulnerable with. Of like, I'm going to say things in the steps and I need someone to push me. Of like that's not necessary anymore or that's not really a part of this goal. It's not critical to it. I know you love to enter this into your H R S every single day. But like actually there's probably a better way, right? And like you need to have kind of that group that you can really experiment with but not get stuck in. Just let's keep experimenting over and over. Like at some point you've got to make the shift, make the choice. And I think to what you were saying earlier too, Jeff, a big part of this is around change management and bringing people on the journey. Especially for the employees in your organization who are at the forefront of just the fear and the excitement and the worry and the wonder and the uh, hiding what they are doing, resisting it, all those things. If you lead this transformation, your organization, without them, without their involvement, they're the ones doing that work that needs to be redesigned. Going to make it so much harder for yourself. I think for HR leaders, I think a lot about how do you bring everyone in to the process so that they are creating these new workflows with you and not simply being assigned them and feel like they are detached from this transformation, but that they have a role to play in it too. This is just as important for them as an early junior employee as it is for you as the most senior leader in the organization.

Speaker A: Yeah, full agree. You know, change management is challenging and this challenge is complicated because many people are worried about AI. You know, stats show that people are more worried about AI than they are enthusiastic about AI. Other ones show that, you know, there are people in your organization who are actively resisting or even sabotaging AI transformation efforts. In part because they're not sure what's in this for them. Is what's in this for them getting laid off in six months? Or is what's in this for them an exciting new future? It's so important to uh, bring your people along, as you were saying, Karina, and this type of change in this type of environment because without your people, like you're not going to get there. Do they understand the what's in it for them? You know, are you making this easy for them to do or are you getting in their way? But just how are they feeling about AI and specifically AI within your organization and how AI relates to their future within your company. As we have more conversations with our prospects and customers, you know, here at 15Five, they want to understand more and more how AI fits into our roadmap. We've been investing in AI now for a few years, you know, so we have some exciting things already, and we have more exciting things on the way. You have to understand that sentiment and engagement around AI. Uh, you have to understand, you know, knowledge, skill and ability competencies for people as it relates to AI, especially leaders and managers building and architecting these changes in your organization. So it's an entirely new way of thinking. And then it's not just a way of thinking. That's just like, oh, it's a technology. It's a technology that is influencing everything else in your organization on an everyday basis.

Speaker B: Right. And for HR leaders who don't see their place in this transformation, in my mind, it's really what you were just saying, Jeff, which is like, this is not just technology. This is like a complete change in how everything happens at work every single day. And that is a people strategy. Right. Like, what are the teams that we're building? What are the skills we're bringing into the organization? What are the skills we need to develop? How do we help people achieve the outcomes with these new tools and capabilities that we have on hand? If an HR leader or can't see how they fit in there, sometimes I just want to give them a little, like, friendly shake to shake of. Like, this is your world. Like, you have to step into it and make sure that you are armed with the tools and the capabilities that are also your AI partner. Like, you should have those same tools in your suite that I'm like, I'm doing my work better because that's powered by AI. It's powered by the right people data that's helping me triangulate everything that I need across engagement and performance and retention and manager development. That's like, we have a role in this too. If you're putting yourself on the sidelines, I think that's a choice to be there. You also have a choice to step up and step into this really, as an architect, which is something you talk a lot about, Jeff, kind of this idea of maybe moving away from just being an architect to, like, a bigger urban planner in this change. Tell me about your thoughts around that shift and why that's an important mindset change for you.

Speaker A: Yeah. If you want to reach this future where you're an AI, mature Organization, you know, workflows are redesigned, your workforce is upskilled and empowered to use these tools. You have agents working alongside humans and where employees really feel like they co authored the change and co created the change and not like they're just casualties of the change. I do think it requires a type of thinking that from a leadership level that is a lot like urban planning where you're thinking about multi year investments, you're thinking about shared services and utilities, you know, things like water, roads, waste management. And it requires you to think even more broadly than just like an architect thinking of one building as part of a, uh, you know, a city or a town, but how all these things, you know, connect and fit together. As a leader, you do have to put a lot of investment into this. Almost the substrate or the foundational layer of what you're investing in. Not just like the fancy end of it, the experience, but also what's at the beginning. So what does that mean for hr? Like, of course you need to continue to lead people and culture efforts on your own, but you have to ensure that CEOs understand the need to invest in that substrate. You're going to have to partner with finance teams and IT teams in brand new ways, you know, to bring them along whenever you're looking for bringing in new, you know, ICs, managers, leaders, executives into your organization. Understanding, do they have the appetite, the love of learning, the enthusiasm, the curiosity about this type of change? You know, are they thinking in this way or are they thinking in the old school? Like leaders need to be liked, you know, cheerleader types who just, you know, raw, raw the way forward for organizations, or are they thinking more in this urban planning way where it's like, hey, we need systems design here. What capabilities do we need? Like, hey, this technology stack is completely disconnected. You know, how do we make sure that it's connected so everyone has the access to the data that they need so we don't have all these rogue AI projects happening all over the place. How do we ensure that these systems are really supporting the key use cases for our key functions and then build out from there? What's our roadmap on making these changes over, you know, a multiple week, month, quarter, even year? You know, point of view, you know, it is a rethinking of how all these components fit together with a deep appreciation for some roles that maybe are underappreciated, like it, like hr that's really required for this next level of leadership.

Speaker B: How do you think roles in an organization are going to change in terms of the most essential skills to have, like, where do you see kind of these new lanes forming of what's going to make a really successful organization now and in the future?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think one area is coming back to this idea of system design. And how do you think in terms of AI first? How do you think of agents first? Whenever you're thinking again about, like, okay, need to zoom out. What are we trying to accomplish here? Like, okay, we're trying to create demand and capture demand for whatever we're bringing to market in our organization. There's a playbook that, you know, exists in how to do that. It has a certain checklist of things on it. You need people who have the skill and have, again, the enthusiasm, the appetite for rethinking that problem. From the what do I want to accomplish layer, which is to create and capture demand and starting from there. Like, for example, agents are already starting to have their own wallets and buy things. Right. There's a future where agents will make purchases on software and tools and skills that they need to get certain jobs done. Like, you need people who are open to that type of start with the end in mind, what do I want to accomplish? Thinking and then building systems that connect and how to do that again from almost like a blank page where maybe the blueprint hasn't been written, you need someone who's bringing that curiosity, enthusiasm for building systems that not only connect people, agents, software, but have the feedback loops that connect to other workflows in your organization. You need to be, you know, willing to learn and not just sit on like, hey, I have 10 years doing this, so I know everything, or I have 20 years doing this, or even 30 years doing this, like, these things are being rewritten. And if you have the humility to admit, like, oh my gosh, I need to reskill up. So myself as a leader, AI isn't just something that I just need to yell at my people more and tell them to use. Like, I actually need to understand what's possible here. And I need to think in systems and think in workflows and, you know, support my people and make sure we're investing in this foundational layer. And in the context that I'm providing my people and evaluating people and developing people in those areas, if you can bring that humility, I think you can be in a good place.

Speaker B: If I were to just think about who comes to mind as, like, someone who changed the way things were done. It is not only the curiosity that you talked about, but it's matching that with courage to do something different, to take a risk, to make that calculated decision or bet of uh, like I'm actually going to push this forward like once I've learned about it, once I've seen it. And that is a really cool moment for any leader to think about stepping into right now. Right. It's not about what's the playbook that my boss did or their boss before them or the generations before me, but you actually have this whole new world in front of you where you get to take those skills that and many times we're not encouraged in like the typical corporate world for the last like two, three decades and you get to put them into practice to build that world of work for the future. That's something I think about that really excites me and gives a new opportunity.

Speaker A: Agree. And you know, as you were talking, I do think that there is a courage that's required here because there are studies that suggest like hey, people aren't seeing the overall business value of AI or like hey, why should I learn this? Because it'll just be outdated in a week. And especially I think here, you know, in 2026 it's been such a fast moving year already, like dramatically faster than 2025. You know, understanding strategy as an example, as you know, hey, there's goals that we want to accomplish which are not strategy, they're goals and then there's obstacles to those goals that we need to diagnose and then we need to create policy and plan and then allocate resource properly, you know, as a portfolio of investments in a business to achieve this new future. And I think that it's very tempting right now to under invest in that portfolio on these foundational layers that are the backbone of uh, building out systems. Everyone in your organization has a subscription to Copilot, Gemini, Claude Grok and uh, Chat GPT. People aren't using them. You have no clue who's using them. You don't know who's using them effectively. Managers and leaders don't know what the expectations are if they're clear. So a lot of those fundamental things around, you know, strategy, resource allocation, ensuring that people are supported still matter. But the how has changed in some of these areas in really critical ways where you know, words like governance model and centralized administration just don't get people pumped. But if you don't think about those things well now then you're going to be building this agentic future or this AI future you want to have on a poor foundation. Similarly, if you rush this and don't do it. Well, you could build it on a poor cultural foundation as well where people feel like, oh yeah, this is just, uh, another knowledge transfer project that's going to lead to my termination in a couple months once I transfer this knowledge. And being in HR is quite hard because people are complicated, as I'm always saying, but also needs that IT foundation. But it needs to be both. Like if you're just like, oh my gosh, everyone has, you know, a Claude subscription now and Claude code and Claude cowork and like, I bet they can get this done, but it doesn't connect to other key systems, like 155 I would argue, you know, then you're in a tough place. And also if it doesn't have that people and cultural element, you're in a challenging place as well.

Speaker B: Tell me a little bit about the maturity framework you've been using to talk about this, right? This emergent, accelerating and optimized maturity of an organization. How do companies figure out where they are and why does it matter to move up that framework right now?

Speaker A: 2026 to me is about value orientation. We went from AI curious in 25 where it's like, oh cool, you're using that. Me too. Like, what do you think about this? This did you see so and so's talking about prompts, you know, to now like, oh, these systems are incredible in many ways. But what's the roi and how do we think about again, this portfolio of investments in our organization such that we can see the impact we want to see as you think about what's underneath that again, like words like governance model, you know, moving from bringing your own AI and like everyone's just figuring out these things on their own to centralized administration and integration depth where AI is making certain things faster. But how do you have the right connections between, you know, your different systems such that you have all the context and data you need for that system to be impactful. And then also capability model, like 2025, even self directed exploration I think was normal. Where it's like, oh yeah, you're trying that. Me too. Have you seen this? Versus you need structured AI enablement where you're moving from, oh, we're curious about this to like, okay, we need to talk about ROI to, hey, we're making this portfolio of investments and AI and people and skills and competencies to deliver these outcomes and we're evaluating our performance against those outcomes themselves. AI can help with workflows, for example. You know, we have tools that are remarkable for preparing for customer calls and Doing follow up for managers. Of course we have Kona that provides notes and coaching in automated ways, which is great. But then also that next level is really workflow integration. So how do these things fit together and they're not just assistants. And then how do you again create autonomous systems with agents as well? So agents and humans working together, capitalizing on the capabilities and limitations of both to create new possibilities for work. And again that comes a lot through integrations because you need that right context, that right access, that right permissioning at the foundation. And if you don't have that, then people will just, you know, Shadow AI, ah, use their own tools with LLMs and you know, things like Claude that people are going to use them anyway. So you need your IT team and your HR team to be working on again, the administration, the skills and so on. And then on the capability model, you know, as you move up in maturity from like self directed or self exploration, you know, towards a culture where you're AI native, meaning your AI is at the center of what you do. And removing AI would fundamentally change what's possible in your organization. You need to be looking at things like performance management and do we have the right goals and priorities related to this? Are we making progress? Do we have the right self development goals? Are we evaluating people and their performance with AI usage in mind? But all those fundamental things need to be in place with this new orientation around AI enablement as organizations are attempting to go from hey, we're AI curious, you know, to air oi, which is really the mandate right now. This is not the future mandate, this is the mandate that's here today.

Speaker B: I could just pull from what you just said, four different programs that HR owns strategically, that one of these must be coming up just where we fall in the time of year, right? Do you have a performance cycle coming up where you should be measuring how AI is impacting performance outcomes? How do you want to talk about it in the scope of work and development? There's one. Do you have an engagement survey coming up? Are you gathering data on sentiment of how do your employees feel about AI, how to managers and leaders feel about it? Where are you at in this moment of change? If you want to get really specific on that? You also just talked about managers and manager enablement. Can you use this moment? You know, if you're a user of 15Five and a customer of ours, what is Kona helping to tell you about the skills that they have where they need support? What are you seeing in your manager effectiveness index? How can you pull all of that forward. And then you talked about this culture of experimentation too. Through all of those things, can you understand how psychologically safe it is for your employees to operate in this world today? What are the things that they need to either do more to either be more a part of it, find their place in it? Where are you succeeding? Where do you need help? If you, if you take nothing else away, one of these four programs, if not all of them, in the next couple months, is an opportunity for you to gather real data that is going to help move your organization forward in this transfer. Your org needs it now. And this is a great opportunity to step in and be a part of, of that leadership and that thought and really come with the right insights so that you can have the plan that leads to the outcome your business is hoping for that really connects to that strategy.

Speaker A: Yeah, full agree, Karina. Thanks for sharing all of that. And also put pressure on your partners. You know, if you're a 15,5 customer or in our space, we're always happy to talk. And I think that we're well aware that AI transformation is top of mind for many organizations, if not nearly every one. And this is an area that you should put pressure on partners to help you figure out how to make some progress here in real ways. And then like you were saying earlier, Karina, like, this isn't an opportunity for HR to be on the sideline. This is, you know, an opportunity for HR to be at the center of a very complicated change management process that people have both, you know, wonder and awe around what's possible here, but also fear and anxiety about what it means, means for them and their livelihood and their families and everything else. And HR has got to be at the center of that because you need a culture fit to this change management effort you're undertaking as much as you need the technology fit.

Speaker B: Jeff, in our last couple minutes together, what is the one mindset shift you want every HR leader to make starting today?

Speaker A: The one mindset shift is if you are thinking that this is a technical change only, it's actually a technical change and a people change. And I think actually the people part will be just as, if not more complicated than the technology change. One, because people are complicated and two, because people have complicated feelings about the possibility of this technology, such that there's the entire range of like super adopters who are at the leading edge. But then also their study is about how people are, are, you know, resisting or hiding from AI or AI Sabotage is starting to become a topic that people are talking about because this is such a powerful technology that's disrupting work. And when that happens, you know, I can't blame people for being, you know, nervous about these changes because there's a lot of change coming. So again, the mindset shift is this is not something just driven by your CEO or your cio. Like, of course those individuals really matter in this change, but this is a human change at the heart of it. And human changes need, you know, people who are experts and people in culture at the foundation of them.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I think what I've taken away from this conversation, Jeff, that really stands out to me that you shared is that the companies that are going to figure this out aren't just the ones with the best tools. It's the ones that are really willing to rethink how work gets done completely, to stop thinking about how do I build this one building and become that urban planner, how does this whole system come together and operate differently? And. And how do you show up with both the curiosity and the courage to make that kind of change and lead in this? And so I invite all of our listeners to hear more about this. If you're excited about what Jeff is sharing, what we're talking about here, come join us at 15:5 next. It's June 9, 12pm Eastern. We want to see you there. We're going to be talking a lot more about AI transformation, particular how that's a part of 155 products and where we are headed. So use the link in the show notes to register for free. We want to see you there. If you're a 15.5customer now you want to become a customer and you want to talk to us. Reach out to Jeff on LinkedIn. Reach out to me. We want to chat and connect with you. And thank you again so much, Jeff, for your time and your expertise today. I can't wait to buy the book and read all about this.

Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you, Karina. I really enjoyed it. Thanks everyone who took the time to listen. Hope to connect soon.

Speaker B: As an HR leader, you have a critical role in in managing an organization's most valuable asset, its people. However, despite the importance of your role, other executives may not see the value of having HR leaders at the executive table. This is why we crafted the HR Outcomes Playbook. It's designed to help you close that gap and operate in a way that enlightens and excites the rest of the executive team and shows them that HR can provide value to an organization's bottom line. Get your copy at the link in the show notes now.