Building the psychologically safe workplaces that employees want, expect, and demand

Speaker A: This is a Momentum Media production.

Speaker B: You're listening to HR Leader inspiring you to lead the workforce of tomorrow. Hello everyone and, um, welcome to a special episode of the HR Leader podcast, produced in partnership with our friends at DLPA or or Dynamic Leadership Programs Australia. My name is Jerome Dorisami. I'm coming to you today from Cammerangle Land in Sydney. And I'm very pleased to be joined in the studio by Carly Cremen, who is the chief executive of dlpa. Carly, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker B: Today we're going to be talking about psychological safety and workplace well being. There's, uh, obviously so much, uh, to cover here. And Carly, you know, before we get into all of that, um, noting that there is a lot to cover, tell us a little bit about the work of DLPA for those of our listeners who maybe don't know about it.

Speaker A: Thank you. Uh, dlpa, we're a leadership consultancy. We work with organizations around the people piece of the organization. So that can be training and development, executive coaching, change management, and more and more commonly we do consulting around psychosocial hazards.

Speaker B: Yeah. And for you and for the rest of the team, you know, why is this work so important at this point in time? I mean, there's obviously a lot of leadership challenges that businesses are facing right now. So why do you see the work that you're doing on the ground with businesses big and small as being so fundamental to the success not only of those individual business, but of the, you know, the broader economy?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that there is the compliance lens, um, undoubtedly that, um, you know, as I often say, not going to prison is a really good option for most people. But then beyond that, being able to contribute to the success of organizations by bettering the lived experience of an organization, making sure people are effective in their roles and really having sustainable employment, I think is a wonderful thing.

Speaker B: So let's dive into the crux of our conversation, which of course, uh, is all about psychological safety and workplace wellbeing. And I think maybe a good starting point here, Carly, would be to reflect on what we could describe as the transition from being reactive about being on top of compliance, uh, for example, and being aware of your duties to the regulator and under legislation, to being more proactive about embedding psychosocial risk prevention into everyday work practices. What's your take on the extent to which businesses have been able to make that shift from being more reactive about this, uh, to being proactive?

Speaker A: It's hugely varied across, across the market. So of course there Are people doing it really, really well. But I think I would also point to, we still see organizations who actually aren't even reactive yet, that they haven't engaged at all. And you know, we speak to businesses in Victoria who have, you know, a somewhat interesting regulation came in in December and there's still businesses who actually don't know that it did, that it's live. Right. Well, so there is, there is a huge range and there's also uh, even where people have reacted, I think even within that there's quite a variation of the degree of compliance. You know, some people have reacted by having one line item on main risk register that says psychosocial hazards and then one control or even five controls. But you've got a lot of variation of risks within that category as well. So I think a lot of people are relatively uh, early in their journey. But then that said, there are people who are quite mature in, in their journey as well. Um, mature is quite a charged term to use, but who are further along, who are further along in their development and uh, are moving towards being proactive. But I think that some um, of the regulations make it, make it a little bit tricky at times to be proactive.

Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds as though for some of those who are more in the reactive or pre. Reactive bucket, uh, that there's maybe a bit of a box ticking attitude, uh, going on here that obviously is not sufficient in the current climate. What are some of the challenges that some of those businesses might be facing if they are stuck in the reactive phase or not even there yet?

Speaker A: Yeah, and um, I had a conversation with a company the other day where they were saying, oh, that's a box ticking exercise. And my response to them was, yeah, but so tick the box. That you need to at least tick the box. And so there is, there is a very real need to at least actually tick the box.

Speaker B: Box.

Speaker A: And then we think about um, some other things. I think that organizations in that space usually are a little bit paralyzed by the enormity of the subject. That it is really challenging at first, particularly if you're coming from a standing start to come into. But practically what do I do? I don't want to end up with, you know, a yoga program and a, uh, wellness app and a, uh, fruit bowl. If that is doing nothing, you know, what practically do I do that's going to make a difference? And I think that can be challenging.

Speaker B: I think part of the equation here is recognizing that it is a shared responsibility across the business. You mentioned how overwhelming it can be to tackle all of this. And to that end it shouldn't simply sit with the HR function to tackle these problems. It should be a shared responsibility with managers. And with that in mind, I mean how do you see the role of managers or team leaders and certainly the C Suite, uh, evolving as businesses look to better manage psychological risks and ensure optimal wellbeing across the workplace.

Speaker A: I think that we often point to this need to have yes the shared responsibility, particularly at the C Suite, but then having quite specific accountability because when it's completely shared no one really tends to have accountability. And equally when it's just one person then that's not going to be through the whole organisation. So that has its own challenges as well. And so really breaking it out into how collectively as an executive group or a leadership group are we going to be responsible for this? But then me individually, which bits of this am I actually accountable for is really important for teasing out. But I would also point to in terms of that multidisciplinary piece around, it's not a HR problem, it's not a legal problem by itself either in terms of responding to these things. We really encourage that multidisciplinary team to do that. And sometimes people who have no idea what you're talking about when you start to talk about risk as well because they actually know what the risks are, they just don't have the language to necessarily describe them in this way. But I would never recommend having just a lawyer deal with things or having just HR or having just an org psych or this is where we see things go quite awry for organizations.

Speaker B: Yeah and that's such a, really such an important point to make because obviously uh, workplace stress and burnout and obviously things like you know, misconduct, they don't exist in silos. These are uh, created you know from the ground up and there, there are responsibilities and duties upon team leaders certainly uh, to be managing that, to be preventing that. And so just passing the buck uh, to HR or to the, your in house counsel is not going to cut the mustard.

Speaker A: M. Indeed. And the manager is also best placed to engage with the risk, you know HR ah are removed that little bit from operations. And so as in departmental operations and so the manager will have visibility of the intricacies of workloads because we're not um, you know on a production line with widgets, we're in complex work environments. And so that workload is not just units of time and output, that there is variation of complexity of cognitive load of competing factors and so forth. So the managers Are uh, best placed to deal with it. But it probably also means they have a liability in that regard.

Speaker B: And just on that point about liability, because you know, as a manager myself, I'm certainly in that bucket of professionals who may, you know, uh, obviously face, you know, consequences, you know, if something goes wrong when it comes to manager liability and just broader due diligence. How can businesses and their HR teams look to support leaders like myself so that we can properly balance things like team performance, uh, productivity whilst also navigating those legal responsibilities, you know, without necessarily creating a culture of fear or being risk averse. Uh, because, you know, as a team leader, you know, I don't want to obviously live in fear or be too averse, uh, to the team taking risks. But obviously at the same time I have duties, uh, uh, to uphold certain standards and to ensure that uh, my team can perform, be productive and have the right kind of culture.

Speaker A: Indeed. And I think that this is a space where people do kind of lean towards the fear based narrative because we see in case law we see some of the consequences where it has gone terribly wrong, uh, leaders rather having, having that liability. But the thing about a fear based narrative is that it very rarely coexists with trust. And so in running that fear based narrative, you're actually probably making the risk higher. And so for leaders and managers, I think that they should be aware that there is a liability lens. And so just make sure you don't crest into, you know, negligence, for example. But if you do what you reasonably can, engage with the hazards, talk through the hazards, then I think you'll be pretty, pretty safe and well positioned. And so within an organization what needs to happen is first of all the upskilling of managers. To be able to have those conversations, to understand the risk landscape a little bit more and to be aware of where the escalation points and pathways actually are for if they're out of their depth and that it's okay to say, gee, I've no idea how to deal with that and I need help. And so being really clear with managers about where that is and giving them the agency to deal with some things on the fly as well, because as I say, your managers are in the best and most effective position to be managing these risks dynamically in a much more effective way.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, what you've just outlined, uh, seems so critically important to me because unless I'm interpreting you incorrectly, it sounds as though this is the baseline that has to be met if you are to then have effective workplace well being strategies. You can't just throw on a, uh, lunchtime yoga class or boot camp without addressing some of the underlying issues. And if you are taking a more structured, multidisciplinary approach and effectively managing your managers and the C suite, then when you do, then go to put on some of those gimmicks, for lack of a better word, like, you know, the lunchtime boot camp or yoga class, the effectiveness of some of those strategies, some of those initiatives, uh, is going to be much greater because you've already got that base there. Is that a fair deduction?

Speaker A: Yeah, indeed. And I think, to put it in context, if you can imagine being a worker who is under extreme stress, has a lot of friction in their work, that they do processes that don't really work. And someone says, I can fix that for you. Here's a fruit bowl, and we're going to do yoga on Fridays. If you can imagine how that would actually feel. It'd be infuriating.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker A: Because you're in a system where it's not possible to thrive. And so really dealing with those systemic issues first is the baseline.

Speaker B: So with that in mind, obviously workplace stress and burnout and psychological injury claims and just broader mental health concerns, you know, they certainly haven't been going anywhere in recent years. If not, you know, increasing, um, certainly there's been an uptick in the number of claims made to the Fair Work Commission, uh, for various reasons against that backdrop. Tell me about some of the trends that you're seeing when it comes to the extent to which various psychological safety issues are arising and what that says about the future of workplace wellness strategies. I mean, certainly just doing the bootcamp or yoga classes isn't going to cut it anymore. What do all of these trends say about where we're at and what workers want? Uh, expect and demand.

Speaker A: Yeah, and, um, that's a good way to phrase that question, actually. Uh, want, expect and demand that. I think that there is a real change in terms of workforce expectations at the moment. And one of the things we talk to a lot of our clients about is you need to be assuming that if someone has some form of grievance, and even if it's not kind of at the. The legal meaning of that term, if they're just unhappy about something in the workforce, you need to assume that they're going to talk to a generative AI agent about that and that that agent is at some point going to say, you could lodge a claim. Can I write a structure for you? And that you're going to end up in this combative lens. And so that's where I, um, mean, we know that that's part of what's driving the fair work. We know that that's part of what's driving some of the workers. And so that is a feature of workplaces, and it's going to be a feature of workplaces. So in your strategy, you need to assume it. And where we see that doesn't happen quite so much is when there is that genuine human connection that people are like, I'm unhappy. I'm going to tell my manager about it because I believe they care and I believe they have the power to do something about it. And then we see that kind of going straight to the claim, happen a bit less. But it's definitely a trend that is going to feature, uh, for the foreseeable in terms of, you know, workforce expectations. We've obviously got some legislation in Victoria at the moment which is likely to, in my view, create a little bit of tension in workplaces, if that's not too controversial to say. But I think that that is going to be the new trend, particularly for Victoria, around how on earth do we now navigate these conversations in a way that honors the people in them but doesn't exacerbate risk? And that, that's going to be, you know, a tricky thing.

Speaker B: I think so. And further to this point about some of the, uh, wellness initiatives that business will run. You know, the many businesses across the country will have, you know, well being programs or initiatives in place, um, but their staff may not necessarily always feel psychologically safe. And, you know, this goes to what we've been talking about, about, you know, having the substance in place at the baseline and then adding things on top of that. What do you think distinguishes businesses, uh, that are genuinely creating psychologically safe cultures from those who are simply, you know, throwing mud at the wall and hoping that it sticks.

Speaker A: I think it's worth noting that, you know, even, even for us as we go into organizations that we have no real knowledge of at the start of an engagement, you know, whether you're in a psychologically safe space or not, you know, you can feel it as a visitor. You can only imagine how it feels to be in that environment. And so I think that as a leader, a manager or an executive, if you know that there is not psychological safety in your organization, I wouldn't waste the money on the wellness stuff because it's not going to fix it. You need to either go to the heart of it or decide that you're just going to leave it Be as it is. You know, I think that it really does make it a lot worse where we see that type of thing work. And I don't want to, uh, you know, I'm a little bit condescending about, you know, fruit bowls and yogurt and so forth because I see so many organizations just waste money on it and nobody really wants to go do it. And it's not solving any problem either. I would, I think a lot of workforces would prefer that money and effort go into really understanding the work environment and finding the source of the risk. That I think that that's one of the key things that is a differentiator is not saying, oh, uh, we should have these wellness initiatives, we're going to bring these things in and gym passes and when, you know, people have no time to go to the gym and you know, fruit bowls, when, you know, they don't particularly like fruit and these sorts of things that, that doesn't, doesn't work. They can have their place. But when you're bringing those in as part of a, uh, wellness strategy, not just this ad hoc staff that you're, um, throwing band aids on, but understanding the source of the risk, solving an actual problem and then having them as a piece of the puzzle, I think is the differentiator.

Speaker B: Yeah. So put another way, you don't necessarily need to worry about putting on, quote unquote, employee benefits like, like the fruit bowl or yoga class, unless you are doing the hard of building a psychologically safe workplace with a multidisciplinary and holistic approach to managing your staff, um, and allocating responsibilities accordingly, uh, to leadership. Unless you've ticked those boxes first and unless you're being proactive about that, you may as well forget about the employee benefits.

Speaker A: Indeed. And because if people don't want to be your employee, then the benefits are pretty meaningless.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. So with that in mind, looking ahead for the next year or two, what do you think that leaders in the business like myself, uh, what do you think the HR team, the C suite needs to be prioritizing in order to strengthen psychological safety, Obviously meet the increasing regulatory expectations so that when they do come to thinking about implementing employee benefits, they are able to do so in a way that is going to be better received? I guess. Um, but, but, but also then will carry more weight such that, you know, because you've built up the baseline so well, you're actually going to get more value out of whatever benefits you're trying to offer.

Speaker A: I Think for me it starts with strategy. So really making sure that you have a well being strategy, not a tactical or operations plan but actual strategy of what problem are you solving? How is this a differentiator for you? Because if you can connect those activities that you're doing to a particular lived experience that you know, you bringing in, for example an ado or um, flexi time because of stresses or because of peak times when you can communicate that you're solving an issue that you've seen and recognized in your workforce, that's when people tend to value it and it tends to actually contribute to wellbeing. And having it rooted in strategic direction, not ad hoc tasks I think really is at the very, very core.

Speaker B: Tell me about how DLPA can support businesses in crafting these strategies moving forward. You know, does DLPA have a particular program or other kind of that can help businesses really move forward in the right ways here?

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. We can be an end to end provider for people if they like, but usually we'd partner with organisations firstly around that capability uplift. So looking at how can we support your leaders and managers to be able to engage in this space a little bit better and you know, as infuriating as I'm sure it is for HR practitioners, sometimes having an external person come in and say the exact thing that you've been saying for 18 months just shifts the conversation. So sometimes we do that and um, come, come in and give that, that advice and can get things to move a bit and then we can partner in a consulting way as well to plug any gaps that you may have.

Speaker B: Uh, and what does that look like to be able to engage externally with a uh, provider like DLPA to do that consulting work? What are some of the various options that businesses could explore with you?

Speaker A: Honestly there's as many as there are businesses but it can be anything from like a facilitated um, executive session we can do, we can do online training, we can do like gap analysis and capability analysis and we don't like to formulate your strategy for you because you know your organization we don't. But providing the framework around how to make sure we don't get into like operational plans, uh, in this space is something we do a lot.

Speaker B: And just finally for those listeners who want to learn more about DLPA and how it can support them, uh, taking a multidisciplinary approach uh, to employee benefits. How can they get in touch?

Speaker A: Reach out on LinkedIn or visit our website.

Speaker B: Carly Cremen, thank you so much for your time.

Speaker A: Thank you very much.

Speaker B: And thank you to the listener for tuning in. Thank you to DLPA for its ongoing support of HR Leader. We hope you enjoyed this episode. See you again next time.