Finding MAJC with Baking, Balance, and the Bigger Picture: with Guest Carolyn Grillo, Mother, Baker, Host and Content Director

Speaker A: I got sober 17 years ago, so I got sober when I was 19. Um, and I've been an active member in a 12 step program for all of my sobriety. And my sobriety is the most important thing in my life. But that being said, like, I work in an industry where there's a lot of alcohol, but I am very, um, vocal about my sobriety because I have to be. I am happier and healthier and more stable when I'm at home. I'm just not. I'm not willing to. At the time, it felt sort of like a trade for my mental health. And the same time this was happening, Matt called me and said, hey, I'm starting a new company and it's going to be fully remote. And it just was sort of like, how could I not take that opportunity to learn a ton, work with someone I really like in an industry that I love? He has built this really robust community of friends and peers. But for people who are newer or are struggling or feel isolated and they need somewhere to go to ask questions or just learn or listen. There are successful restaurants, and we want to share all the things that they're doing so that we can help other restaurant owners and operators learn from each other.

Speaker B: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Hospitality Bites. I am your host, hospitality hustler, mompreneur, and the heart behind Hospitality Bites Media. As you all know, this podcast is dedicating to highlighting individuals from all over our industry with the intention of humanizing it. Today's guest has dedicated her career to bringing authenticity, depth and flavor to the stories and food that shape our industry. Currently, she serves as a content director at Magic, where she helps restaurant owners and operators discover their unique voice through community engagement, education, and technology. With nearly a decade of experience at America's Test Kitchen, she provided readers and viewers with a chance to recreate dishes. As both an editor and producer on on air segments, she continues to engage with culinary professionals and enthusiasts, uh, alike. As the co host of the Restaurant Ready podcast alongside Chef Met Jennings. Please join me in welcoming this multifaceted baker, director, host and mother, Carolyn Grillo. Welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me, Colleen.

Speaker B: Oh, I'm super excited. I was really pumped when Matt said that you were kind of like the brains of getting things organized and putting it all together. And I was like, oh, she's my kind of person.

Speaker A: Yes, I am extremely type A and I love the organization side of things. And so as you can tell from my book collection behind me, I love organizing and sort of managing so it's a good role for me.

Speaker B: Well, before we jumped on the show, I talked about her books and how I appreciate how they were color coordinated because I do not have that. Mine are just like an order of what I've read them. So, yeah, that's a book.

Speaker A: It does make it hard to remember which books are which. You have to be like, what book I'm looking for this book. Did it have a red binding? You know, so it's not actually super practical, but it does look nice.

Speaker B: So then that leads me into. Did you enter the baking sector? Because it is very, like, specific. There is no rules to really experiment because it's so science.

Speaker A: It's so science. It's so organized. It's follow the recipe, specific measurements. If you do this, it will come out like this. That was extremely attractive to me. I mean, I didn't know that, like, as a kid, I really loved to bake, and I liked baking with my mom. And anytime I would say, like, can we make cookies or can we? My mom baked a lot for holidays especially. And so I loved, loved baking with my mom. And so when I was thinking about going to culinary school, I just thought pastry makes the most sense for me. And then I got there and I was sort of like, oh, the. And this works with my personality. You know, this sort of methodical measuring. Like, I love a good me. It's just like that.

Speaker B: That is so funny. I am such a front of house person where I enjoy, like, the chaos. Okay. Of that, but I like the organizational. Organizational skills. When I was, like, at the host or like, running the front, I loved putting those puzzles together. But when it comes to, like, the recipe and baking, my cinnamon rolls are the only recipe that I follow to a T because my family eats them. Um, otherwise I'm constantly trying to, like, experiment, and then it never goes. Never goes well.

Speaker A: Experimenting with baking is so hard. It's really hard, especially when you're messing. Someone recently asked me about adding pumpkin to a banana bread or something, and I was like, oh, my God, the liquid levels are just gonna be ins. I was like, do you know how much experimenting you're gonna have to do to get the pumpkin flavor in the. You know, I was like, just. Can just bake banana bread if you want banana bread, Bake pumpkin bread if

Speaker B: you want pumpkin bread. Just. Yeah. The reason why my eyes just got so big was I just made a pumpkin cinnamon roll yesterday or two days ago. I made the roll. And my. The most honest critic in the world goes, yeah, this could use More pumpkin. And I was like. I was just like, oh, my God. It was my first time trying it. I wanted to do something different. But like you said, it's. It doesn't just correlate to what you're replacing with. And, yeah, that was her first thing. It doesn't taste like pumpkin.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You got a really good palette.

Speaker A: I like that. That's nice. I hope my son has that.

Speaker B: Well, she got. I tell everybody she got knives from Santa for Christmas last year. And it was the best gift possible because she loves being in the kitchen. And that's kind of why I love doing this podcast. And getting to talk to people like you is giving her really a full immersive experience of different avenues within the industry. And, like, it's not just what maybe she was exposed to. Like, she used to come to the pub with us, and my friend Liz is the chef, and she, like, got to see that. And this is what it's so fun is that I'm like, look, there's people that do things like that, develop recipes. And you were an editor. So let's kind of jump into what drew you into. I said. You said pastry was your first thing and then kind of segued into your career. Sure.

Speaker A: So I went to undergrad and had sort of a really normal four year undergrad experience. And then I graduated and I studied art, and I just had no idea what I wanted to do. I didn't even know that what I'm doing now was an option. Uh, right. So like you were saying, for your daughter, you want to show her different things. I didn't even know that I could work in food media for a career. So I went to culinary school sort of on a whim. I wanted to live in Paris. I feel incredibly privileged. I said, I'm going to apply to culinary school in Paris, and I just want to live in Paris after graduation for a little while. And I did that and I came back and I worked as a baker at Flour Bakery in Boston. Um, and I worked there for almost two years, and I really learned some incredible basic things about being in a kitchen. I went from being an intern at the time, they were really big on training you on all back of house things. So I started at night, and I was making sort of the muffin dough and the, you know, stuff for the next day that was gonna be scooped or scone dough, stuff like that. And then I went to the cookie station where you're baking off cookies for the. And then I went to the case station where you're finishing cakes and really beautiful things that are going in the case for the day. And then my last job at Flower was opening the bakery. So I sort of got a full range of this is what you can do in the back of house at a bakery. This is how you run a really successful bakery. And after that I was looking for something that was a little bit more nine to five weekends off, holidays off. You know, in the industry it's, that's a really tough gig to find. And you know, before Thanksgiving for example, was the most stressful time at the bakery. Right. Just making hundreds and hundreds of pies. And then I would leave and try to go see my family. It was just, uh, you know, chaotic. And opening the bakery, right, you have to wake up at three in the morning. And I was dating my wife at the time and it was just, I was exhausted and I thought I really want to figure out a way to stay in the food industry and to stay in food, but have more of a schedule.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And so I applied for this internship at America's Test Kitchen, which is in Boston. And for anyone not familiar with atk, they publish two magazines, Cook's Illustrated and Cook's Country. Um, they've been around for about 30 years. A company and they have, they publish about a dozen cookbooks a year and then they have multiple TV shows. So, and then a ton of YouTube shows and like that, especially in the past couple of years. So it's an incredibly content rich, just sort of filled with, it's just filled with people who love food as much as I do. And that really makes it a very special place to work because everyone is sort of a food nerd and everyone wants to talk about food. And so There are about 60 test cooks that are developing recipes and they're.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So on all different teams. So there's like the cookbook team, there's a Cook's Illustrated team and the Cook's country team. And they all sort of work in little hives. And so if they're developing a recipe, everyone on their team comes to every tasting for that specific recipe. So if they're developing chicken parm, for example, they'll do a five recipe test, which means they test five recipes at the same time and sort of your whole team goes down the line and they try all five recipes and then they leave feedback. Like, I really liked the breading on A, but I really liked the sauce on C, but I liked the cook of the chicken on D. Right. And so then the editor, everybody stands around and talks about it. And then the editor goes, okay, what direction should I be going in? And that's how they start their recipe development. So it's this. I thought it was just like the coolest thing ever to watch.

Speaker B: Well, so collaborative. It's like versus like being siloed in a kitchen. Which I think if you're in the industry, you understand that if that's your station, that's your station. And there's sometimes not a lot of collaboration working in a restaurant environment. So I love that there's so many. I mean, obviously, I know with R and D, for any cookbook, there's a lot of variations and things that happen before it actually goes to the reader. But I love that there's different culinary professionals creating the same dish, but like their own interpretation and then seeing what the, I think is it. So I guess what the universal overall like. Like is. And that's how you create the final recipe.

Speaker A: Yes. And also you have to take into account what else has been done by that particular group. So like, a cook's illustrated recipe is different from a cook's country recipe, which might could be different from a cookbook. So if the cookbook is, for example, Mediterranean, or if the cookbook is low sugar, or if the cookbook is like under 30 minute meals. Right. You're going to approach the recipe differently. So a, uh, cook's country recipe, you might look at it and go, okay, well, we already have a chicken parm that's made in an air fryer. So we're not going to do an air fryer chicken parm or we already have a, uh, one pan chicken parm. So let's make this sort of the most indulgent, maybe a little bit more complex recipe, and we'll play with that. What can we do if we use more than one pan? And why would we use more than one pan? And all of those questions. So it's sort of driven by what we already had and then what. What we needed.

Speaker B: I love that. I like that there's, like you said, like, there's three different, I guess, directions. Technically you can go in with a singular dish.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Depending on what the reader is or the viewer, whatever the content was. Your.

Speaker A: So what? One of the things I learned at ATK that I use now at M. Magic, my new role at Magic is one thing, and then use it many places. So my role at, uh, America's Test Kitchen was on the reviews team, viewed kitchen equipment and ingredients. So I would write stories like. So because I'm a baker, I was assigned A lot of baking stories, which I love. So, like the best springform pan, right? And then I would bake nine cheesecakes, same exact recipe in nine different pans. Uh, right. Or like the best mini cupcake tin. And so I would make financier's same recipe in 12 muffin tins. And then I would make muffins, and then I would make cupcakes. And I would evaluate the bakeware to help readers make good decisions about what cookware they should buy for their kitchen. So if you have any cookware questions, please send them my way. And then I would. We would also test ingredients. So I love, loved ingredients, like the best garlic powder, the best espresso powder, the best toma canned tomatoes, whatever, whatever it was. We did non alcoholic drinks, which I really loved because I don't drink. Um, I've been sober for a while and so that was really fun. So my team was the reviews team. How did I get here?

Speaker B: Talking about baking and your peas baking.

Speaker A: Oh, okay. So when we write a story, it goes online. It went online first, Right. So it was published on the web first. Then it would go into a magazine. So it would be edited down. Right.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Maybe it was a thousand words, and then it might go down to 300 words to fit into the magazine. And then we would use that Maybe on a YouTube show, like a YouTube short, a five minute sort of thing that one of my bosses might do. And then we would use it on the PBS show on Cook's country or America's Test Kitchen on the TV show. And so this one piece of content that took months to put together, right? Months of research, tons of baking, a lot of time was used and sort of reused and repositioned in many different ways, which is just such a brilliant use of, uh, when you put so much time and energy into something and it's so wonderful and sort of content rich and you learn so much, then you can sort of use it in all of these different ways. So I wrote an article about garlic powder, but then I learned all this stuff about how garlic breaks down, right? And so, like, the more you chop garlic or the more you crush garlic, the stronger it is. So I learned about the cell walls and garlic and why pressing it is different than grating it is different than mincing it, you know, and it's like that nerdy kind of stuff is just so exciting for someone like me who loves food that much. And that was my favorite thing about America's Test Kitchen was it was the people I worked with were just really wonderful people.

Speaker B: Well, I think it's what I love that you just said was like, the nerdy side of you, that the education doesn't stop. Like, once you graduated from culinary school or you got your first job in baking, and I talk about this a lot is when the world shut down and the pandemic happened. Everyone was online or on their phone and they were immersed in food because it was comforting, right? Like, not everyone was like, I'm gonna be a baker. I'm gonna be a chef now. But then they thought like, oh, that's what culinary is like. So now I wanna be a, uh, social media chef or whatever it is. People didn't realize though, and I still don't think everyone understands. What you guys were doing, though, takes years and years of development. It's not just like, I saw it on TikTok and now I'm gonna make it and now it's gonn big trending thing and I'm famous. It's really all about continued education and really learning so much about the food that we're putting in our bodies and how you can manipulate it in different ways. And that's what I think sets aside, you know, really successful and passionate industry folks, is that we know that doesn't end once you land your first job or you get that big break. There's always so much more that we can be learning and just talking about food and where it comes from, especially now you're a mom, I know you understand, like, so important for us to be like, what are we giving our kids? And how can we manipulate it in other ways so they're not getting the same thing every single day.

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. And I would say that the more I'm in, the longer I'm in the food industry, the less I think I know, right? Because I meet new people who just have education about a completely different topic that I knew nothing about. And I think, oh my gosh, I have so much more to learn. Everywhere that I go, I think, wow, I have so much more to learn. One of, uh, the reasons that I was so excited about joining the Magic Team a year and a half ago was because I knew I was going to learn a lot. It was, uh, a sort of uncomfortable move because I'd been at ATK for nine years and I felt really comfortable. And I had moved from intern to editorial assistant to assistant editor to senior editor, and I was just sort of cruising. Like I would just sort of knew how to do my job and I loved my coworkers. It just wasn't as challenging for me anymore. And joining Magic, which is a startup, and there were three of us at the time, it was really just Matt, Andy, and I was a complete opposite, right? Three people went from a company that was 30 years old with 200 employees to a company of. Of three. Now we have more employees, but it was really different. But I knew I was going to learn a lot, and I think that's important to me as I'm growing in my career, because I don't really know where I'm going. Right. I think that's sometimes in the culinary world, sometimes I feel jealous of people who, like, wanted to be a lawyer and they went to law school and now they're a lawyer. Right. And in the food industry, it feels like sometimes I'm just sort of taking the next right action and going, like, I'm not sure what the future holds, and I'm just going to keep taking the next right step. I have my master's in management for hospitality from Boston University, and I got that while I was at atk. And a lot of people at the time were sort of like, you're an editor. Why are you getting your master's in business? And I thought, well, I don't know if I ever want to open my own place, if I ever want to open my own bakery, or if I ever want to work at a restaurant group or if I ever want to. I don't, uh, now I'm at a startup, and some of my business knowledge that I got in grad school is really applicable to what I'm doing. Sort of big pick, not in the content director role, but sort of in this bigger role of, like, we're building a company. But a lot of it feels like I'm just gathering knowledge and I don't really know where I'm going.

Speaker B: We are kitchen sinks. Like, that whole saying, like, everything in the kitchen but the kitchen sink. Like, I feel like I am the kitchen sink. Like, um, I'm everything but the kitchen sink. Because I have done so many different things within hospitality. I created a podcast knowing nothing about it. Right. I decided to found a media company knowing nothing about media. And I want to do all these things. I want to make a movie and I want to host events, but my solid foundation is hospitality. And I know that hospitality isn't singular. It's not a linear path. And I. I agree with what you're saying. Like, that business management, hospitality, though, 100% correlates what you're doing with magic, because the whole idea of magic is to give hospitality professionals a better understanding of business from every part of the industry, no matter what your title or role is. So it's just interesting that you did something several years ago and now you're using it. Like, we always have, like, our Swiss army knife of tools we can pull out at some point.

Speaker A: Yes. And it was funny. You were talking, I think, before we got on about how you love front of house. And I had coffee with my friend who owns a restaurant group here in Boston, and I was telling him about my experiences or whatever, and he said, it seems like the only thing you haven't done so far is front of house. And he said, do you want to work in one of my restaurants in front of house for a little bit to get that experience? And I was like, I'm a little busy.

Speaker B: Like, I am, um, a little tapped

Speaker A: out at the moment. But it was funny because that was sort of. He was like, well, if you like a full picture, you should probably work front of house for a bit. This was a few years ago, and it wasn't the right time. But I sort of keep that in the back of my head, like, maybe I should have some front of house experience at some point. Round out my.

Speaker B: Here's the thing. Could be now that you have to manage a household with a little person, it kind of like, the same thing. Like, you've got all these people that you have to tell them, like, you know, keep your pants on, wash your hands. Like, don't do that. You can't eat that. Do you know, it's in this. Like, it's kind of the same thing. Like, I think being in the restaurant prepared me to be a mom.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: Um, putting out fires constantly and, like, you know, unruly guests. I emailed you the other day that my son, who's one and a half, is ginormous and takes his diaper off now and wants to run around the house with no diaper, and I don't know what to do. It's like, literally, like, wrangling a little drunk person at the end of the night. Be like, are you kidding me? Like, it's time to go home, pay your bills.

Speaker A: Are you drunk? No. You know when I'm like, did you poop? No. Well, I'm.

Speaker B: Nope.

Speaker A: I'm pretty sure that you pooped.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. That is jazzy all over the place. Yeah. It truly has, like, prepared me to be a mom and, like, multi, uh, you know, multitask and do a bunch of different things at once. Like, you and I both Scheduled this to do things around our home life plus our business. So I really appreciate that because tomorrow this will be airing on Monday. But let's go back in time that our two of our ambassadors are joining Magic to talk about like the mental health offering healthier places to work through through Chef Matt talking about why this is so important. And you kind of touched on it also a little bit that you're sober now, like telling people you can still be in the industry and how do you do that in a sober environment. Do you mind sharing a little bit why you decided to go into sobriety?

Speaker A: I got sober 17 years ago, so I got sober when I was 19. Um, and I've been an active member in a 12 step program for all of my sobriety. And my sobriety is the most important thing in my life. Like it comes sobriety, my family, everything else. Because I know that if I don't have sobriety, I won't have my family. Um, so I, you know, like, things got pretty dark and pretty bleak. Um, and I, I just didn't really have a choice. I like, like, I actually just shared this recently on a meeting that like, I didn't get sober at 19 because I like special or any better. It just was like I didn't, I didn't have a choice. Things were sort of that, that bad. And, um, my life is just so much better today than I could have even possibly imagined. And I really value not drinking. And. But that being said, like, I work in an industry where there's a lot of alcohol and my wife is a normal drinker. And so it's not like I'm scared of alcohol or like I can't be around it, but I am very vocal about my sobriety because I have to be. We were talking about tastings, for example, when I was at atk. My people had to know that I didn't drink. They don't necessarily have to know that I'm sober, but they have to know I don't drink. So that when we have a tasting and if there's alcohol in the pie, for example, or like mixed into the whipped cream or whatever, they can say, oh, hey, by the way, Carolyn, number three has alcohol in it if you want to skip it, right? So there are things like that that are just sort of practical that people like. It is good for people to know so that they can flag things for me. And I think, you know, I don't have a problem being vocal about it. It's just sort of part of who I am and I Think if I can ever be helpful to someone else because I'm vocal about my sobriety, then that's why I want, you know, like, I've had many, not many. I've had several friends come to me since I got sober saying like, so and so in my life is having a problem with alcohol. Do you have any suggestions for me? Or. I'm having a problem with alcohol, I think. I'm not sure. I'm an alcoholic, but like, it's not going great. Would you mind taking me to a meeting so I can check it out? Or, or you know, what do you think about this? Or you know, just being open about it I think is just so incredibly helpful. And I love the work that the Burnt Chef project is doing. I've been in therapy for a long time. I'm a huge supporter of therapy. I think it's an incredible resource for people who can access it. Um, and I, I mean, I can't speak highly enough about it. So. One of the reasons that I left America's Test Kitchen was because they called us back into the office. So I'd been working remotely for four years and then my son was born and we were purchased or like a percentage of our company was acquired by a VC company. And we had new management come in and they said, we, regardless of whether you've been doing your job remotely or not, we want everyone back in three days a week. And I was still breastfeeding my son and I had really gotten used to working from home, except on days when I had to go in. Right. If there was a video shoot or a photo shoot or I was needed in the office, I would drive the 20 minutes into the office or the 30 minutes, whatever. And they came and said, regardless of what's going on at home, you have to be in three days a week. And I said, that's just not going to work for me.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: I am happier and healthier and more stable when I'm at home. It's better for my son, it's better for me. I'm just not, I'm not willing to. At the time it felt sort of like a trade for my mental health. It was like I'm not willing to make myself more stressed. And at the same, I believe in, you know, higher powers and fate. And the same time this was happening, Matt called me and said, hey, I'm starting a new company and it's gonna be fully remote and I want you to join. And I, the first thing I said was, okay, I just had a son. Are you okay if I work part time?

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Because I need to have balance. I need to be able to take care of myself. And, um, and I also want to work. And he said, great, we'll work around whatever schedule you want. And it just was sort of like, how could I not take that opportunity to learn a ton, work with someone I really like in an industry that I love, and be fully remote and be able to work part time? I was sort of like, well, this is, I, uh, have to jump on this.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's important you said it like, you know, knowing what's good for your mental health, especially someone that is your sobriety, is so important to you. Like, you never want to put yourself in a situation where anything could potentially trigger or make you feel uncomfortable again. And like, also for new moms, if you are not someone that has experienced having a child, there's this weird pull of wanting to be there fully with your baby, but also you miss being out and social. But when you're out in social, the first thing you're thinking about is that baby back home. And like, man, I could just be spending time with them. And everyone's like, so afraid to like, talk about, like, it's okay to feel guilt on both sides, like, right. It's so real. But whatever makes you feel the happiest and healthiest is the path that you should be going on. And I think that's so important that you said, like, this isn't great for me. Like, right now my life is where I need to be. And those first few years, like, I, I, I was post, I had severe postpartum depression last year with my son. And everyone, uh, kept saying, just go back into the restaurant industry. Just go back in, like, talk to people. You'll feel better, you'll make money. The thought of being around and talking to people gave me such crippling anxiety that m. I just like, shut down completely because it wasn't what was good for me, for my mental health.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I didn't know how to explain to people that I was also severely depressed despite having a baby. Like, how, how are you sad after you've had a child? I'm like, well, because my life is like, falling apart. That's, that's, oh yeah, I don't know how to explain that to you, but that's what's happening.

Speaker A: The hormones post pregnancy are so insane. I can't, I mean, and people said that to me, like, it's gonna be the biggest drop in hormones that you're ever going to experience in your life. And I was kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was just weepy all the. I was weepy for days. You know, thankfully, it. It sort of evened out a little bit, but it was. It's really tough. And so I met with our CEO at ATK at the time, and, um, I said, look, I've been here nine years. I don't want to leave. My boss doesn't want me to leave. Can we work together? Can I stay until Jack is a year old? Can I work remote until Jack's a year? Just give me, like, a little bit of time, and then I'll start coming in three days a week. And it was just a hard no. It was like, you're coming in or you're out. And I think I was so turned off by the lack of compassion for a new mom. And we. There was another new mom on my team who said the same exact thing. She came in and said, I'm not ready to come back. I need time at home with my child. Can you give me until a year? And they said, no. And she also ended up leaving and. And, um, joining a company. And I. I sat there and I said, you are going to lose all young moms. You're going to lose so many women at this company who need more flexibility when their kids are young. And they just said, yeah, we're okay with that. And I was like, this doesn't feel like the right place for me anymore. I'm gonna, you know. And Matt and Andy have been, um, at Magic, have just been more willing to be flexible. If I say, like, oh, our nanny's out today. Sorry, I have to run and go grab Jack from, you know, from school or whatever, they go, okay, great. Like, just, you know, sign on later and finish your work or whatever, you know.

Speaker B: And so it's funny, you work with two other men who seem very secure in the fact that you are, um, a young mom with young. A young little baby. And I think that's what's so fascinating is that in our industry, there's this weird insecurity that a lot of people I think, carry of, like, I just don't want to get involved in your womanly hormones or whatever's happening with you and your boobs are exploding because you have to breastfeed. Like, I don't want to talk about it. So then that's what they do. They have, like, an ultimatum instead of being like, let's just talk about, like. So when I say I need to take a pumping break, Let me tell you why I need to take a pumping break or if I can't come in today because I'm, I don't know, having serious gestational problems because I just had a baby. Like, I want to be able, comfortable to be able to say that, but our industry is. So I'll talk about ours because I don't know any other industry really. But like, we have a very physically demanding job. It's a very front facing job. Like for you specifically, if you're not in the great headspace at that place at the time creating recipes, like, are you really wholeheartedly invested into what you're doing and the importance of the person on the other end that's gonna receive it right?

Speaker A: People. You want people to be at their. I mean, we talk about this at Magic, about when we're talking about owners and operators and we say like, okay, you have to treat your employees well, not because it's morally or ethically right, which of course we think it is to treat other people with dignity, but it's better for your business.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It's not just better because you're being kind and thoughtful. It's better because your retention increases. People are happier to come to work when they're at work. They're more engaged, better employees to their co workers. Right. When we treat people well and uh, do things like make their schedule and take their life into account. When you're building a schedule, for example, uh, people want to stay at that job. It's just sort of like, come on, this is, this is not like hard

Speaker B: facts or people shouldn't be right. And that's what's so funny.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So many of us that like, that are our age that have been in it since like I was 17 when I started, I didn't know any better. I didn't know I was allowed to like take care of myself. Because at the time, you know, let's go back 15 plus years, maybe longer at this point, like, no one told me, like, if you're not feeling good, don't come in. It was like, um, if you have your period, I don't care that you feel like you're gonna die. You're still coming into wait tables for 15 hours with no water break, no bathroom break, and maybe you can get a shift meal of a cheeseburger. Like, that's what it was like. Yeah. And now there's been this paradigm shift where most people, I think, are seeing that there's a lot of work to still be done. So that's why I find so fascinating about what? What when they came to you about magic, how did they pitch this to you? Like, did they have some sort of like epiphany as well about the industry lacking crucial leadership skills? Okay, yes, for sure.

Speaker A: Matt and Andy, they talk about how they would have conversations years ago about like, why even when you're a chef that you feel like you're doing all the right things. Why is it so hard to run a restaurant? Or why is it so just so difficult to run a sustainable, profitable restaurant? I think that's where they're sort of where they aligned. And we want to make, I think it started with like, we want to make software education community. We're not sure what this is going to look like, but we want to help people run restaurants better. Like to have more sustainable, more profitable careers. And that's I think where magic, where the start of magic was. And they were a little bit farther down the line when they came to me.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: They had been working on magic for I think about six months before they pitched me. And the first time Matt called me, Jack was three weeks old. And he just said, because I had worked part time for Mac when I met, I was in grad school and I was working at atk and he had a consulting company in Boston and then ended up, he moved to Vermont. But at the time I read about him, it may have been in Food and Wine or Bone App. And there was an article about Matt and his consulting company. It said that Matt was sober. I am, I'm an assertive, confident person for the most part. And so I just cold emailed Matt. I don't remember how I found his email address, but I cold emailed him and I said, hey, you work in food in Boston. I work in food in Boston. You're sober? I'm sober. Um, I would love to buy you a cup of coffee and ask you about your consulting company. And so he called me, I think it was just like to check that I was sane person. And we talked on the phone and then we met in Cambridge to grab a coffee. And by the end of the conversation he said, um, do you want to come work part time for my consulting company? Because we need someone who has writing skills, we need someone who has editing skills because he was working with another chef and that chef also, you know, his skills were in recipe development and management and leadership. And so they needed me. And so I had worked for a year for Matt part time a few years prior to magic. And so he called me and said when I was really newly postpartum and said, hey, I'm starting this company with this guy named Andy. I think you two would really get along. I think you'd be a perfect fit, and we want you to come join us. Uh, and I said, matt, I had a baby three weeks ago. I said, I don't even know what day of the week it is. I don't know nothing.

Speaker B: I know nothing. Exactly. I know nothing.

Speaker A: I know nothing. I really know nothing about what I'm doing. And so I said, can you give me a couple of months? And he said, sure. And so maybe three months later, we had a call and we talked about magic. And I said, cool, I'm not ready to leave ATK yet. And he said, okay, cool. We'll talk to you in a couple of months. And he just kept checking in with me, like, every three months. And he would say, we're still doing this thing. We still want you to come work for us. And I would say, again, like, I just wanna remind you that I have a. I have a baby. I wanna work part time. You know? And he'd go, great, we'll make it work. Whatever you wanna do, we'll make it work. And then sort of this, ATK called everyone back to the office. I realized that maybe it wasn't the best fit for me anymore. And it was a really hard decision because I loved my team.

Speaker B: Huh.

Speaker A: I mean, I loved the reviews. I mean, I loved a lot of people I worked with atk, but my team was very special, and I worked there at a very special time in my life. Right. 24 to 34 or 25 to 35 ish range. Like a very. There's a lot of growth between 24. And. It was my first real job. Um, sort of after the bakery. I mean, I. That was certainly a real job, but it was my first sort of more corporate job. I got married. I got engaged and married and pregnant and had Jack. All while I was there with these people, these wonderful people on my team. And so it was a really hard decision to leave, even though I think it was the right. You know, I think it was the right call. Um. Um. And so it just sort of all aligned at the right time for me to leave.

Speaker B: Major. Yeah. When major milestones happen in a company that you've been at, that was what happened to me. All my major milestones happened at this business I was at for seven, eight years.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then when the world reopened and I traveled, my daughter was six months old. Yeah, she was six months old. And I hadn't been out to Chicago in a year and a half. Right. So she was in my belly the last time I had been there. Um, and it just felt different. And I believed and loved my company and loved what I was doing. I felt so privileged. I could fly back and forth. And then my life got really scary. I got like a, a really serious health care. And all of the priorities, like you said, like the divine intervention type thing were like, something's telling me that this is not it for me anymore. Just try something new. And then things started happening when I decided to walk away. But walking away was really, really difficult. And I understand that. Cause I met my husband at my job. He was my employee. He was terrible at his job. But, like, that's where I met him.

Speaker A: That's really sweet.

Speaker B: So I love hospitality. I love. That's where my family grew from it. Right. Like, and I totally get that. So now you're in this new venture with magic and it sounds like from. To be honest, I had not heard of Matt and I felt terrible when you first reached out. And then I did some research and I was like, oh, wait, I have seen him or I have heard about him. I just didn't put a face to a name. Sure. Vice versa. Um, and so when we went into like the magic world and I started, I signed up and I figured it out, I was like, oh, this is, this is like a no brainer. Why do we not have this available, like to everybody? Why aren't we using things like this or resources like, embrace technology. This is what's so great about technology.

Speaker A: So one of the community aspect of magic, which is sort of a. I like to think of it as like a masterclass. And Reddit and Facebook sort of got together. Um, so it's a peer to peer community. And Matt would come to Andy and I and he would say, I have several group chats going on my phone of owners and operators in different cities. And they'll say, hey, does anybody have a Hobart, uh, man to like, come, you know, come fix your Hobart, or I need a mobile freezer or I need whatever. And they would say like, oh, this lease is coming up on this restaurant and it has this many seats and what do you guys think? And. And they would just run ideas by each other, right? And I need more revenue. Should I start a private events or, uh, whatever, you know, like run all these questions by each other. And I thought, first of all, how cool. And. And second of all, what if you don't have that community in your Phone. Right. What if you live maybe in a smaller town or a smaller city or you're new to the industry or you have, you know, Matt's been around for 30 years or something, so he has built this really robust community of friends and peers. But for people who are newer or are struggling or feel isolated and they need somewhere to go to ask questions or just learn or listen or. I mean, I, uh, love our templates and our articles. Not just because I write them, but I also think they are incredibly helpful. And I love that we partner with places like the Burnt Chef project or Hop Dove, which is an HR company in Boston.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And um, we have a finance partner who's out on Nantucket. And so these people will share resources with us so that we can give them to our community members so that they have just more information. Because there are successful restaurants and we want to share all the things that they're doing so that we can help other restaurant owners and operators learn from each other. Like, we just want to lift all boats, right? Rising tides lift all boats. And so we think that that's the way to do it is to. For us, part of our podcast is that we talk to successful restaurant owners and operators and we ask them very specific questions about how they are successful because we want to share that information with other people. It's just sort of like, let's just get it out, let's be talking about more. Like we said at the beginning of this conversation, let's just talk more, you know, learn from each other.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's funny, I talk about the social media pandemic. You know, people want to be culinary media, right? They look at people like Matt and they're like, oh, he must be super successful because he does the cooking competitions, right? Mhm. What about the 25 years of work that he did prior to that? And that's what I think is so misconstrued, is that these people that we see on television is like a very small sliver of what their success is and how they got there. And like you said, he's sober. Can't imagine being sober in the industry. 20, 30 years ago was an easy task when it's thrown in your face constantly and then it's celebrated. So I think what Magic is doing is it's really giving people a true glimpse of what the industry is like and giving people access to those they may admire or that they think have, have it all, where they're also sharing like the really ins and outs of what it takes to be successful. Like it's not the vanity version of it. It's the real version of the industry. Yep.

Speaker A: They didn't wake up successful. Right. No one wakes up successful. There's a lot of. And. And people make mistakes along the way, and then they learn from those mistakes. And how did they learn take from those mistakes and all of that. That kind of minutiae. One of the things that I really love that we have at, uh, Magic are these expert sessions that happen once a month. And tomorrow we'll be with, um, two ambassadors from the Burnt Chef project. But we've had, um, Nina Compton and Kevin Gillespie and Kevin Boehm come, and they're, uh, just available for an hour, and you can come in and ask them any question. Access like that feels just sort of unheard of. And you can, you know, and not in. It's not a, uh, self promotion. They're not there to say, how great am I? You know, they're there because they want to help other restaurant owners and operators and answer questions. And so I. I think that's a great part of the industry of.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because. Yeah. He said that it may feel like it's. They won't have access that especially if you're in a smaller part of the country or your restaurant industry sector isn't as booming as, like, New York or Chicago or Charleston, whatever. It is totally to see these larger names of success and really hear, like, I know Kevin, um, but he talked, uh, he talked about it on television of, like, he was going through something significantly hard for him while balancing running a business. Yeah. And I was like, wow, that's so cool that he talked about it so openly and was like, even chefs and restaurateurs have these things, and how do they navigate it that people got access to? Ask him those questions of, like, how do you go through the hard stuff and run your teams? How do you prioritize what's more important?

Speaker A: Everyone's going through something hard. Right. And everyone also. Not everyone, but a lot of people also wanted to be successful. And so a lot of what we do is like, okay, how. How can you take care of yourself and run a successful team? That might mean delegating more. Okay, how do we delegate more? Right. Like, let's let go of some perfectionism, um, or ego. Right.

Speaker B: I mean, that's.

Speaker A: That's it. For me personally, I can speak for myself because I think that I do things better than other people. And so I don't want to let go or delegate.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But these are things that we need to learn so that the restaurant can run without you for a few hours, that you can see your family, sleep, take a walk, go to therapy. Whatever it is, right. Whatever you need to feel your best so that you can come back and be there for your team. Right. That's a lot of the kind of stuff we talk about.

Speaker B: Because they're human.

Speaker A: Yes, because we're not broke, we're not great.

Speaker B: It's, it's like literally I talk about, it's like lifting the cloche off of like this is what people think it is. And then when you get inside there's a million other things that are going on.

Speaker A: Yes. To do that.

Speaker B: And then also I think just having the messaging board availability to talk to people takes away that silo environment that a lot of I think restaurant operators have or managers feel that you can't talk to anyone because it's your job to keep it together, which is not the case.

Speaker A: Or it's your job to know all the answers, which is insane because like when we started this conversation, you are just learning constantly in ah, the food industry. You aren't, you're never done. So having access to other people who also wanted to learn and grow and grow from you and you have knowledge to share, I think that's also really important. I think a lot of people, people feel like, well, do I have anything? Of course. You have so much knowledge and so much great stuff to share that someone else can learn from. And so that sort of peer to peer relationship is. I'm a big fan.

Speaker B: To me it's like a no brainer. It's sad that, you know, it takes a long time for us to get to a point of accepting help and access. But our industry more so than others just is like so afraid to like ask for things. And I don't know why, it's, it's weird. I don't know, maybe it's all clear that ego talked about it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, I think that like you gotta keep it together. You know, there's so much stress and pressure that I think people are hesitant to show any weakness.

Speaker B: Right. You don't show your cards.

Speaker A: No, I don't feel that way. I'm like, here are all my cards. What cards do you wanna see? I mean it's sort of like how I live my life philosophy and it just happens that it works really well with magic, you know, like.

Speaker B: And I would say that seems like it's a perfect fit for you obviously for your timing of your life, but also of what, that of what you want to put out to the universe and like what you're trying to accomplish.

Speaker A: Yeah, with the what?

Speaker B: With what you know, and how you can help them accomplish that. Um, by doing all the things you're doing. I don't know if you saw. I think it was Apple TV just came out with the. They're like chasing the Michelin stars. Have you seen.

Speaker A: We just watched the first two episodes last night.

Speaker B: Okay. My husband and I just watched it on Sunday.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And the young chef from the, um. In New York City in the. In the underground metro.

Speaker A: No. Uh. Knocksu. Yes, yes.

Speaker B: When he. Spoiler. When he broke. I looked at my husband and I go, that is what makes me so darn sad is that he is cooking underground where there's no ventilation. Which blew my mind.

Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I was. They said there's no ventilation. And I. And he's coughing and he. This is insane.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I agree. So I go, this young man is sacrificing his physical wellbeing. And you can tell that the owner definitely is like, oh, this is not a great. This is not a good thing that's happening. But to see him break truly broke my heart. Cause I was like this. He's truly putting everything into it. He's physically doing the work. You can tell that he mentally is taking on a lot. And it also makes me so sad that he doesn't think he was worthy of a Michelin star. Which is like the opposite of what so many people believe. They think they are so worthy of the.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that they. If they don't get it, like, how dare they where this young man. I say young man. Cause I'm like, I'm so old now. But like this young professional didn't think he was worthy of. It was devastating.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So devastating.

Speaker A: His sort of like when he got something wrong and I am using quotes like he made somebody sent back the wagyu when the temperature was wrong or whatever. And it was. I mean he took it so personally. And I thought, oh my gosh, that is. It's devastating to watch someone take it that personally.

Speaker B: And I just, uh. It made me really think about honestly what you guys are doing at Magic. And like our ambassadors joining the show is we have ambassadors that are Michelin awarded chefs and have worked in Michelin rated restaurants. The last thing they want is for a younger professional to feel that way. And so what I think what Magic is doing is it's giving people the ability to see, like you said, the failures of those that may actually have achieved that success too. Like one mistake does not define your career the rest of your life.

Speaker A: I mean, you can make so many mistakes.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I mean, I'll speak for myself. It's imperfect, you know, all of it.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And everyone's just doing their best.

Speaker B: And my mistake actually kind of got me here. I got a DUI when I. In 2014, 2013, and I was, like, living, like, the high life of the rinse, repeat cycle. Like, no one was checking me, and those maybe were checking me. I didn't want to hear it. Um, and it sent me down, like, this path of, like, I was in a really bad headspace. And then I got my dui, and it was like a huge, like, check to me of, like, what's going on with my life. And I own that mistake, and I'm actually. I talk about it very openly. Uh, that my m. Mistake is what got me here, and it got me my family, and I've worked really hard, but I will never. You know, I. I don't want to say I'm ashamed of it, because then I. I'm, like, feeding into that, like, negative part of my brain, which I don't believe is a thing.

Speaker A: Um. Um.

Speaker B: And I love. I was. It say. It made me think of you and, like, saying, like, for your sobriety, I think it's great that you talk about it so openly. I think that you're such an example for your child, and I'm sure your wife is super proud of you, too, to be in an industry that may not be as accepting of a sober person, but you're doing a great job. And I'm just really happy that I was able to kind of connect with you and do this show with you.

Speaker A: I know. Me too. It's. I am, um. I was so happy to meet you last week, and I felt like your energy and my energy were. We were on a call with other people, and I just feel like we would, like, be friends. Like, this is a nice.

Speaker B: You know. My husband's from New England, actually.

Speaker A: Oh, lovely. Where is he from?

Speaker B: He was born in Methuen, Massachusetts.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Which I laugh every time he says it. And then he kind of bumped around between New Hampshire and Massachusetts for a while.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Unfortunately, when we met, he was on the Tom Brady train.

Speaker A: Has he since gotten off of the Tom Brady train?

Speaker B: Our daughter has a Tom Brady jersey, so I don't really know. Okay. So, no, the answer is I don't think so. I mean, he's accepted that the Patriots are not who they used to be. Okay.

Speaker A: I like that. Um, but then when we're on no Patriots in this house. My wife is from North Carolina, and so we are a Panthers house. And we just taught my son this weekend to say, go Panthers. And he goes, go Panthers. Stop it. It's the cutest thing in the whole. And we're not sure where his long A's have come from, but he says panthers.

Speaker B: I like the Panthers.

Speaker A: The Panthers.

Speaker B: I'm a DC Born and raised person, so we've had a lot of ups and downs in our sure sports house. But no, he's a hu. I mean, the fall weather is like his time to shine. He brings out his flannels. People are like apple cider donut every day since, like, September 15th.

Speaker A: That's adorable.

Speaker B: Talks about the trees all the time. And I'm like, okay, well, one day I'll get up there when it's, like, beautiful. Cause I was only there in the winter and it was not. Not my cup of tea.

Speaker A: No, the fall is the best time

Speaker B: to come, so I've been told. So that's my goal, is we're gonna get up there. That's what I also laughed. I was like, oh. You are told like, you're living his, like, New England dream of, like, living outside of Boston and raising the family. Well, thank you all for listening. Today's episode. Um, please be sure to check out my friends Walk and Talk Media for their amazing content, including this distribution of this podcast. Please check out Magic and see all the things that they're doing. The house value bites.com to learn about, more about me, my documentary, anything waiting involved. And as always, please be kind to yourself and be kind to one another. Thank you, Carolyn.

Speaker A: Thank you so much, Colleen. And I want to know more about your documentary, so maybe we can talk, you know, after the podcast. I'd like to learn about it and if I can help in any way. Maybe you're pretty close to being done,

Speaker B: but no, I'm not even close to you. Oh, definitely. Great. Okay, well, I'll send you the trailer. Uh, maybe. Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay, cool.

Speaker B: All right, thank you. Bye.