The Power Of Empathetic Leadership with Jorge Soto from AssetMule

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to Growth Marketing Camp podcast powered by OpenSense, where we sit down with leaders and founders from diverse backgrounds in marketing, tech and beyond to explore what it takes to build a leading brand that's shaping the world of B2B. Let's get into it.

Speaker C: Hey everyone, Jaz Binning here, co host of Growth Marketing Camp. Welcome back to another episode. Today I'm joined by George Soto, co founder of Asset Mule. He's a veteran entrepreneur with a deep background in marketing, product management, sales. He also is a fellow host. Um, uh, so I'm excited to be talking to you.

Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for sure.

Speaker C: I always love having conversations with podcast hosts. So in your podcast is the GTM Pack show, um, and, uh, Startup Unedited Podcast. So let's dive in. So first off, George, welcome. Um, why don't you tell me where you're, where you're calling from? Where are you based?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I am currently in Miami, Florida, uh, after spending many, many years in the San Francisco Bay area and then before that spend a couple years in New York and just kind of moved around quite a bit, uh, after college.

Speaker C: All right, man. And where did you go to college? Where were you actually? Yeah, where did you kind of. Where did you start your career?

Speaker A: Yeah, interesting enough, I started my career in the most unlikely place. It was, uh, Northern Florida, the capital of Florida, Tallahassee. I went to Florida State University first. So for the folks out there who are familiar with like, football and stuff, we were pretty good in the, uh, I guess we're still decent, give or take, but we used to be really good in the 90s, 80s and stuff, when it was, uh, pretty popular to have that rivalry in college football between Florida State and Miami and all that, there was a lot of shenanigan, uh, shenanigans going on there. However, went to school there, started my career there, my entrepreneurial career. I always tell the story how I met a venture capitalist in the military tech space, which was completely foreign to me, especially because I was from Miami that didn't have any tech. I wasn't in like Boston or Cambridge or Stanford, you know, Silicon Valley or whatnot. So that whole concept of like, building companies, uh, and startups and technology in general was super foreign. So I met this VC and started working on a project, uh, with him and a family member of his. And, uh, 20 something years later, I'm still doing this kind of stuff.

Speaker C: Yeah, I saw your LinkedIn. Made me laugh because when I was kind of, you know, doing my usual, like, you know, creep people's LinkedIn. I just. You, you had a comment there basically that you've been doing this like, almost like therapy for 23 years and you're still, you're experiencing like, you know, I'm sure all of the wonders, but also like the PTSD from it, you're like addicted to it. So I'm like, okay, this is gonna be fun. I know you're now at Acid Meal. So before we get into your experience and how you kind of got to where you are, why don't you tell me a little bit about Asset Mule. What do you guys do and for whom? Who's your target audience?

Speaker A: Yeah, so Asset Mule is a tool that allows product marketers and sales teams to be able to create personalized, what we call interactive sales assets. Right. So one way to think about these is a replacement for your PDF, right? Uh, and listen, I love PDFs. I still use them, but within the context of sales and particularly the collaboration between marketing and sales teams, particularly even deeper product marketing, or those marketers tasked with supporting sales with sales enablement, it's just not a really great option. Um, and especially these days where you really want something that's interactive, that's constantly giving buying signals out, we work in remote environments for the most part these days. You know, there's hybrid environment too. But even when we are on site, we are on Slack, we're on Microsoft Teams or whatever chat system internally that you use. And so the ability to actually, um, send collateral to your prospects, that is interactive, that gives you those buying signals. As I mentioned, that is easy to share internally via these internal tools and then ultimately creates a better buying experience that's more relevant to the buyer is, is our goal. But of course on the other side, as a sales and marketing team, you want to know what's working. You want to know how to prioritize what you're creating as a marketing team for sales and what you're using as a sales team. So at a high level, that's what we are doing. You know, you asked about who's it for? It's for B2. Right now our, our sweet spot is B2B software companies entering through product marketing or those sales enablement focused marketers and then the output of those templates that these marketers put together used by sales.

Speaker C: Got it, Got it. So I mean the way you've described it, it sounds like then you guys, Asset Mule would be servicing many different Personas, right? So the salesperson who's sending out proposals, maybe the marketing team, so they can um, take a lot of the feedback and just use the signals to determine, hey, what's working, what's resonating, what's not. Um, probably I'm thinking like sales or marketing, whoever owns this, the space, um, who's making the buying decision. Is it, is that kind of the case? Multiple Personas are you know, involved in purchasing. Um, and then actually using you know, the day to day admin and then you know, strategy and all of that. So is it, is that kind of the case here?

Speaker A: Yeah, fortunately and unfortunately. Uh, and I say that because on one hand you have the function of supporting sales that could happen across different Personas or stakeholders within an organization. That might be your sales manager in some organizations. Right. It may be sales enablement, it may be product marketing. So, so that's why it's unfortunate because it's like, you know, kind of different and it varies. Although we've been able to identify uh, some sweet spots here certainly early on in the existence of our business. But uh, but fortunately because it' something that is not new. Right. It's the, the idea of marketing and sales having to work together around sales collateral, sales assets is as old as it, as it can be. And so that, that really helps us. We're just trying to like create more efficiencies, create better, more intelligent ways of, of doing these things. But ultimately it's about creating a better buyer. A buyer experience. Right. Like we're all about this like buyer enablement movement right now. Which you've seen different types of technologies kind to uh, throughout the years. Uh, experiences like drift.com. right. Not the first chat tool ever. Right. There's been planning before that live person. There's a plethora of other ones but like just these experiences that are more relevant, personalized and make it easier for the buyer to buy. That's kind of at the forefront. But, but of course as I mentioned before, you have a, a go to market team behind.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: The vendor that needs to be aligned and uh, work efficiently.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting like a lot of the stuff that you mentioned because I see a lot of alignment. Um, I'm also head of marketing at a company that services multiple Personas. And it's also in many ways um, a sales and marketing tool because you know at OpenSense we do um, email signatures and so email signature marketing. So you can basically target the um, signature campaigns depending on Persona or whatever. So the sales team who's trying to maybe close a deal same time you're also trying to sell it to marketers. So I ask these questions because it's a challenge, right? It's a challenge to try to, especially to try to understand how can I package this in a way that makes sense. Um, and then to kind of deconstruct it at what you just mentioned at the very end. At the, the most important thing is the buyer experience. And so when you've got a startup or a company or a tool or platform that services multiple people, it's just, how can we just cut m out all the noise, really simplify it so we don't risk confusing right the buyers at the end of the day. And how do you come up with a good go to market, um, strategy that simplifies it and shows the value straight, straight off the bat versus just again being confused. So for I know you guys, why don't you share a little bit about. I know you co found at Asset Mule, you've had a lot of experience before. Um, how long has Asset Mule been around? Um, how has your vision and kind of for Asset Mule shifted since you know, inception of this company?

Speaker A: Yeah, so we've been around for a little over a year now. Um, I guess time's flying. So you know, there was the moment where my co founders and I sat down and we were like, let's do a company for me, I was like, oh my God, do I want to attempt another company? Um, but these. I should say that it's not every day that you find great co founders. In fact, I would argue that that's one of the most challenging aspects of starting a company. Everything's challenging. But if you don't have a great co founding team that not only works hard and works independently, like if you have one or two co founders that you have to babysit, it's very, very difficult to actually do that. You know, long term if you have a co, a co founder or two, you know, I'm using the, the numbers that we are or three and experiences I've had. But you've had uh, co founding teams that have ranged in number of stakeholders. But if you have also a co founder or so that is, um, let's just say doesn't have the experience or knowledge that you have in terms of maturity and things like that, it's very, very difficult. So I was sitting there about a little over a year and I guess a half ago or so at this point. And I'd known Justin for years, right. We met when I was still back in the Bay Area and Dane was a close friend of his and I, although I had Never met him. When we met, I was like, all right, this, this individual knows their stuff. They had seen the movie. You can kind of see on paper, right? Like, if you look at their LinkedIn and see what they've done, you're like, all right, I got a good sense for what they could potentially know. But then to actually see that match reality plus with a level of maturity and vision for the type of company, uh, that you want to build, plus the lifestyle that you want to have, right? Um, those things, I just. I was like, boy, we. Plus the technical stuff, right? Like the, the actual tactical technical skill sets. I was like, we got to do this thing. So, you know, in terms of the inspiration, you know, we sat down and we started to think about some of the pains that we had experienced in our, uh, in our careers. And we honed down, uh, to this initial concept, which was canva for sales enablement. They're like, oh, we just need something really easy to put together, right? Stuff, uh, without design, uh, dependencies and these sort of things. Um, and in terms of how it's evolved, the vision, interesting enough, we've done hundreds and continue to do, we're going to do another several hundred customer interviews or market research, user interviews, et cetera, um, over the last, whatever it is, 15 months or whatnot. And our vision really has not changed at a high level, although we have gone back and forth, which I think is somewhat normal based on the space we're in, certainly. Uh, so we've gone back and forth between, oh, is it a product marketing tool, is it a sales tool? Because it's like, you know, to what we were discussing earlier. It's used by both who's the buyer, our pricing, you know, all these things that we've gone back and forth around many, many, many times. But interesting enough, at the end of the day, after, you know, chewing on it again and again, we sort of go through this cycle every couple weeks where we, you know, challenge our thesis and then we generally end up coming back to the same place that we started off, uh, same mission. So it's interesting. You know, I'm not suggesting that that's going to be the case moving forward, but it does feel good that we do end up, you know, sort of settling at the same place. And we feel like the instinctually, you know, the decisions that we make have been largely pretty, uh, efficient.

Speaker C: M. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you guys are kind of staying close to, you know, what you originally the inception of asset meal because you're regularly, like I said, it Sounds like you're doing interviews, you guys are checking in on each other. You touched on a bunch of things that actually want to, um. I'd like to dig in a little bit deeper, especially on like the founder side, because I think that's super interesting. And you know, you mentioned before you've had, um, like almost two decades of experience and you've, you know, again, I'm m. A massive creep. So I was looking. You're like, you, you've got a lot of advisor roles, you've been working at many different companies. You've started. Um, what do you look for? You know, and again, and I think this is especially like any founder led. Especially if the founders are still very involved in the company. Um, what do you look for in, um, kind of making a decision that, hey, this is a, um, this, these, these are the qualities that I think are like green flags, you know, the top three green flags in working with other founders and just making a decision to just jump in with them. And what are the top three red flags? Um, and you had touched on sometimes if someone's. You doesn't have the, the experience, um, that could also potentially cause a lot of friction. Right. To have to handhold someone. How do you navigate those issues later on when they crop up that, hey, um, you know, to just put aside politics for the sake of. And the growth of the company.

Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I wish I had a, like, bulletproof answer because, you know, I think this is partially the challenge of life. Like, these types of things happen in our families, in our relationships, in our communities. So I think it's inevitable that you're gonna have some conflict at some point, whether it's real conflict, which is actually, um, a much bigger question of what conflict really is. Is conflict something that is a, A energy or resistance or an agitation inside of you that you are then projecting out has nothing to do with the other person? Or is conflict literally? Like, you know, we're gonna, we're come. We're fighting two humans, right, over this silly topic, uh, whatever that is. That's more of a philosophical, uh, thought exercise. However, I'll start off with the first part of your question. Like those things that, That I look for and are things that I try to be. Now, am I perfect? Absolutely not. But I, but I do try to. My intention is to be this way every day, the first thing. And I do the work, uh, all the time. Sometimes I'm better, sometimes I'm, I'm not so good. Like today I was just before this meeting, I was Dropping off my son, uh, at uh, tutoring and I'm running, you know, between meetings and stuff. I didn't want to be late here obviously. Um, but I found myself like about to start to unravel these complaining and you know, and all this stuff going on in my head and I, and some days I'm really able to be in those situations and identify very quickly and not let it actually mess up the rest of my day. And then other days I'm like, um, I just let it go and, and then it messes up my, my, the rest of my day. Luckily I was able to grab it and be like, oh, there goes that pattern. So what I'm pointing out is actually like an emotional intelligence that I think is really important. And uh, you know, some would call this type of stuff like mindfulness or whatever, understanding yourself and your patterns and your behaviors. So that's how I approach most relationships or all of them. Again, some I'm better than at other others. But I, I try to identify these things within the co founder, uh, dynamic, you know, and that's, you know, once you sound like you understand the space and you know, you've, I've looked at your, you know, background and you're like, okay, you know, this, this person seems on paper, then it's really very much about what I just alluded to, like that emotional intelligence in their communication, you know, are they getting on and just being, you know, reactive. Um, right away, can you have. Even in the discussion around like ideas, right. Like we, we set. We actually wrote down a couple potential pains that we wanted to solve that ended up being all related anyways, uh, at the end of the day. But like in that discussion, is it a, is it. How are we able to, you know, collaborate in that discussion right there where we're dating? It's kind of like, you know, you're dating. You really are, right? You're at a, you know, at a dinner table and some topic comes up. Uh, how are you able to actually have a pleasant conversation even if you don't necessarily have the same ideas and so on. So, you know, again, emotional intelligence, that's the, that's the biggest thing and continuing to do that. And I say that now, um, because I haven't always been like that. And here's what I mean and I'll give two, two analogies. The first one is I in the past was so like, I need to do a company. I needed to do a company and I would be out there and I'm non technical. Right. I don't write code. And I happen to become an entrepreneur within the software industry. Right. So I went out there trying to look for co founders and would be begging engineers. Like I had no clue if they were emotionally intelligent or anything, but I was like begging them, oh, I, I need, I need you kind of thing. So it was a very needy energy and those things just never worked out. Even, even if we did end up working, uh, on something or whatever, it really unraveled pretty quickly. It wasn't a good dynamic because it was imbalanced, uh, to begin with. So I should say I haven't always been, uh, that way. And I guess, you know, that that message that I kind of like 50 joking on my LinkedIn is actually quite true in that, um, you know, sometimes your identities. Not, not sometimes. I would argue that most of us, there's maybe some like Yoda masters out there who are as entrepreneurs detached from, from their startup and, or their, their, their identity is not, uh, super detached or attached to their startup. For most of us it, you know, the product, the startup, the experience we're so tied to. So, you know, being able to, to over the years detach myself more and more while still balancing the passion and caring and grit that is required to do a company and, and long, uh, term, um, resilience is quite interesting because I think a lot of the time we'll tap into the identity and the ego and the wanting to do something like a company to prove something or somebody or ourselves or prove that we're worthy or whatever. All these, these things that are underneath a lot of our behaviors. So that's just a long winded way of saying like, I haven't always been like that. Uh, that's who I try to be now. And I feel somewhat proud of myself that I've, I've, uh, I've been able to accomplish, uh, you know, that state of being more than certainly I used so again, emotional intelligence. The other story I wanted to say was this, like, even if you look at life in general, there was a time where I remember I was in my late 30s and I was out in the Bay Area doing startups and all that, and everybody back home in my hometown, my cousins, you know, they were all getting married, having kids and all this stuff and I had this, this fomo. I was like, ah, oh man. You know, I don't know when I'm, if I'm gonna become the next Steve Jobs or whatever, right? That, because that was kind of my, my thing for a long time. Um, and on some days I get caught in that, down that rabbit hole still. But, um, so I had this approach where I was like, I gotta go and get married and like, do all these things and stuff. And uh, you know, and, and even before that there was this, there was an imbalanced energy towards that, my personal life. And it was only, it was only when I reached the point where I was done, where I was just like, you know what? Um, you know, I, I, I need to continue to work on myself and be happy on my own and not go down these FOMO rabbit holes of what everyone else is doing. Well, it was only then that I meet my current partner who is the love of my life, and she's incredible and, and so on. And, um, and it's a different, it's just a completely different animal. And I feel like it's, uh, I feel like it's a very similar thing to the relationship I have or the story that I have with my co founders now where like, I wasn't, you know, out there trying to start a company just to prove something to somebody. I didn't want to start a company. You know, this time I was like, no, no, no. And it was like, like by divine intervention that, you know, Dane and Justin came, uh, back into my life. Justin and Dane came into my life for the first time. And we've been at, ah, it and we're having fun. So even when we're sitting there trying to figure out something very difficult, which is most of the startup experience, you know, because we have so much, uh, respect and admiration for each other, um, and each other's emotional intelligence, it's, uh, it's just a, it's a different experience and it's one of those things where it causes you to, to, um, to just be appreciative. I know that's a bit of a tangent there, but I thought that was really important.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, I saw again, um, you touched on a few things that I'm like, okay, I love to hear it. And things that I would even think of, you know. But you don't, you don't actually realize how important it is. Few things that you had mentioned earlier, um, in the beginning of the question, to seek, um, the qualities you seek in your founders and the people that you're going to be working with. Right. This partnership are the ones that you want to embody. I love that. Right. That's again, you know, we can all come in, whether it's in a relationship or if you're starting a company with a few friends or people that you're just, you know, trying to, just trying to connect with, to go in and say, this is what I'm looking for. But you don't have that to bring to the table. Huge red flag. So I love that you mentioned that. I also like the similarities, um, between both your personal experience and finding your um, your, your in your relationship and then the um, what you guys are doing at Asset Mule and your relationship with your team and this energy that it sounds like of just um, intention and detachment from. I need this, I want it. Right. Just that kind of needy energy, almost this desperation to just let it go, do good work, um, focus on, um, uh, checking yourself constantly, whether it's you catching that thought while you're driving with your son, um, and just being mindful that, hey, I'm having these thoughts, let's just, let's observe it and let's, you know, let's kind of let it go. Um, versus also the conversations that you're having in the very beginning where it's like, you know, again, the desperation, hey, I need, there's a huge void. I need you to come and fill that void. I need a technical person to do that versus you showing up in 100 who you know as yourself with your strengths, the stuff that you work, continue to work on, whether it's your relationship or founders. I just love all of that because again, it's the stuff that, until you pay attention to it in your own personal life and your personal experiences and you do like a post mortem and you look back and it's like, wow, if I've desperately wanted something, um, and again, it kind of comes from a space of I don't have it and I need it. The success and even just your mental health and that kind of to start a relationship like that is so much worse versus coming in, focusing on yourself, not comparing yourself and your journey to your peers, um, to other startups because every single person has a very unique experience. So I loved how you touched on all of that. I think all of that just bigger picture of the right way to actually approach life and career. I love that.

Speaker A: Well, I'm glad that resonates. I like to say that the startup experience is a training ground for a lot of things in life and vice versa. Right?

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, based off of kind of your past experiences coming into now Asset Mule, how do you think that your experiences, whether it's starting, um, I'm sure you've probably failed many. Right? And I'm sure, you know, again, um, you've had a Lot of failures, a lot of successes under your belt. What are the things that you think have truly helped you be where you are at today and helped you continue to be successful based off of your past experience? The good, the bad and the ugly.

Speaker A: Yeah. Even though I wouldn't, even though I don't remember sometimes being a heart centered, emotional, like honest, caring, ah person. Even if it hurts you sometimes has been the best thing that I've ever done. And I, I don't know that I could have done it any other way. Um, just given who I am, how I've been raised, uh, shout out to my parents that, that I think like leading with my heart. Even though I've sat there many times and have gone, damn, man, maybe I should be a jerk. You know, I know there's like, you know, this perception that like the tough people, the jerks are the ones who are successful and all this stuff. But um, you know, I, I just, as much as I've gone through moments maybe where I was agitated or something like that, it wasn't authentic. It wasn't like, that wasn't my, my honest, happy place state of being. So I think that that's probably one of the best the, the, the things that have uh, that has impact my, impacted my, my career in the mo in like the most profound way. And why I say that is because I hear it all the time. You know, they're like, you know, my co founders have told me this plenty of times, but I've heard this many times. And you know, I've been as you alluded to doing this for a couple, couple years now and, and it really makes me feel really good actually to go back and, and hear those things, be like, man, you know, you're, you're a good person. That's the best thing that I could hear. So I asked myself sometimes, is it some. Is it like, do I want to be liked? Do I want to be respected? Do I want to be feared? Uh, or do I want to be loved? Do I want people to say, oh, he. What do I want people to say? And um, and you know, as many times as I get insecure or feel that level of insecurity or that I go down through those, you know, those loops that you, that we go through sometimes. And I'm like, I want to be respected. I'm not, you know, whatever it is, uh, I don't really care about that. At the end of the day, I actually don't care about that. Like, I do care that I impacted the world, um, in A kind way. And so that somebody thought that I was kind. Right. And, and nice and all that. That actually means the. The most to me. And so I would say that. And I would also say just like uh, just being. Having received so much help and collaboration from others out. Out there who, who showed, you know, who showed their hearts too. Right. Uh, I do think that like you. You have to couple that with like work ethic and um, and grit and determination. So those two I think are like that's, that's ah. A. That's an ideal state of being for me is like I was able to. To be uh, loving and, and no matter how people treated me or my perception of their treatment while working hard and, and um, and trying to be as selfless as possible given my selfishness traits at times. Yep, that's. That's who I'd want to be. And that's. That's again like that pursuit of that I think has. Has been super beneficial.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Again, I'm not perfect, but you know, that's my intention.

Speaker C: Yeah. No, I love that. And again, I think one of the things you just touched on just trying to be like authentic in, in everything that you do and you know, based off of you. In my experience, I'm the kind of person where I think if I had to choose all of those, would I rather be respected? Would I rather be feared? Right. I don't think I want to be feared. I would, I would. I want to be loved, you know?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: But having that. I remember even for myself when I came into. Even the leadership role at the company that I'm at, to go from an ic, um, um, to, you know, now I'm managing a team. I started off initially thinking I want to be the best. All the trauma that my past managers had given me and I remember just I also worked in a lot of toxic companies in the past and so I kind of had all of those experiences and I thought if I'm ever in a position where I'm, you know, I've got more control, I'm going to make sure the environment is like perfect exactly how I wish that it was when I started off my career. And so the problem with that, which I noticed, especially the biggest struggle that I had a couple of years ago, it was realizing that if I want to truly be like, stay in, you know, be authentic in truly what I feel.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: Bring in my. My realist self. I'm going to end up being respected at times, feared at times. Right. Um, hated, I'm sure, at times. And There was so the struggle that I experienced in the very beginning where I'm like, no, I just want them to like me. I want them to know it's like my intention matters. The intention, right. Uh, that I'm bringing into this, it's positive, but sometimes not a lot of people from the outside are going to see that. And so it's like again, as long as I am understanding and aware of the energy that I'm bringing in and what my goals are, and as long as they're not self serving, then you know what? I can't control what the outside world is going to feel with my actions. If I know my actions are aligned and they are, um, with the best of intentions, whether it's, you know, to, to grow my team, to serve my company, to service my customers, myself, my family. And so I think again, like exactly what you mentioned, that's an area that you feel that you do you want to be loved. And then the issue of I can do what I, you know, I can kind of focus on what only I can control. I can't really manage other people. So it's super interesting. Like the stuff that you just mentioned, I kind of see a lot of parallels there.

Speaker A: Yeah, don't, don't we all want to be loved even, even when we have. If you ever think about it, sit in reflection and think about the times where you behaved in ways that were categorized, uh, as angry or mean or whatever. It's like what's underneath that, right? Like, isn't it that, you know, maybe our fear of not being accepted or our fear of um, of showing our vulnerability supersedes our action of, of being vulnerable. And so as uh, so in a way to, to protect ourselves at some emotional, philosophical, whatever level, we behave in us in a different way. Yeah, it's interesting. It's a very, very interesting um, thing to think about. And you know, this idea of emotional intelligence, um, you know, and applying this to, to all aspects of our life. But of course we're talking business here. Being able to do that at a really high level, um, putting in the work, keeping yourself in check, especially as a leader, I think is one of the greatest gifts you can give to yourself and others around you. Not easy, right? Because we are human and I think part of this human experience is experiencing the full gamut of emotions and energy and et cetera. But uh, but you know, I think to keep this stuff in mind is, is really critical, I think. Like, also I was on a podcast a couple days ago and we were talking about you know, American business culture and this idea that, you know, in the 80s and 90s at least, I remember watching a lot of those Wall street type movies. It was like, oh, you know, they were just drinking whiskey and like being rude and you know, and whatever. And that was it. That was like, you're supposed to be this like, let's just make money at all costs kind of. And um, you know, I don't know that anybody like if you've ever spoken to elderly folks, retirees, you know, people who have um, who have been successful. I don't think anybody ever. I've never heard it where they're like, God, I really wish that I would have been more mean or been more aggressive or been more, you know, type A or whatever. It's always these other very philosophical sort of heart centered things. I give you a, uh, quick, quick note. My buddy, uh, Noah Kagan, he, he owns uh, this company called Appsumo. And he was like former Facebook, early Facebook. He's got a cool story, check him out. He's like pretty big on YouTube now. And he did this series um, where he goes and like asks rich people how they got to their point, you know, to that period in their life, etc. You know, you've seen those probably out there. So he does that kind of stuff. And he went and spoke to a bunch of billionaires who have, you know, again, made billions of bucks, arguably successful. And the, the common theme. And I literally was shedding a tear here because I felt, I felt I really connected with this concept. And it was the common theme from all these billionaires was uh, and it was interesting, I'm thinking about now is um, just kind of like the profile of individual. But they uh, they said that the, the best thing that they'd ever been called was mom or dad. It wasn't boss, it wasn't CEO, it wasn't chairman, it wasn't billionaire, it wasn't this, it was that. And so it's just interesting, right? Like the things that really matter. At the end of the day we not. Nothing that we've talked about here is new. I think we've all been exposed to this kind of wisdom. You know, how do we apply it on a consistent basis? How do we navigate when things don't go that way? Um, forgive ourselves, forgive others. You know, there's a great Steve Jobs used to read, um, the Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda. And for the folks out there who are not familiar, Yogananda, I can't pronounce this. The first part of his name. So. Yeah, uh, but, but uh, it's a, it's a thing. Right? Like Steve Jobs has talked a lot about it, how he would read the book like once a year. And um, and so you know, not to go down some sort of like religious, dogmatic, you know, set of thoughts. So I'll kind of generalize it. But like one of the things that, that the author talks about is like this idea that no matter what people are saying to you, no matter how they're treating you or your perception of that, you know, the ability to actually be. Love them anyways, forgive them anyways, turn the cheek. We've heard that concept, you know, is so, so powerful. And I was sitting there actually re, I read the book a couple months or uh, maybe it was a year ago or something like that, whatever. I was revisiting some of the concepts last night. Interesting enough. And uh, and it's just, it was like yes, I, I, gosh, you know, that's who I want to be. Right Do. I don't want to be the, you know, Wall street, you know, stereotypical jerk making money but treats everyone and burns down everyone around them in pursuit of that. I want to be the person that can be loving. I, you know, I've said that a couple of times on this, on this conversation. Uh, but uh, or this episode. But like it just, I don't know, I just that's, that's my pursuit.

Speaker C: Mhm. And it's a, it's a noble one for sure. And it probably again, I'm sure it has changed and shifted over the years. I'm sure what you're looking for now and kind of how you envision your life today. Also, you know, you mentioned one of the biggest things that all these billionaires mention is being called mom or dad. So as a father, um, probably so different compared to pre child, you know. And so I can imagine that not only for you and it just shows growth, it shows development. The older we get, you know, a lot of the outward stuff just starts to kind of melt away. If you are continuing a journey of um, you know, self reflection, continue to build your emotional intelligence, self awareness, then you start seeing that otherwise, you know, there's still obviously going to be a lot of type A people who just care so much about outside climbing the ladder, the cost of anything. And so those are the ones that oftentimes I think you, I'm sure you've interacted with many, like I said, just being um, in the startup space for a while. So many different personalities. I can just imagine how many of those you've interacted with and how much you've been like, you know what, these are great qualities. I'm just, um, and these are not so great qualities and I'm going to learn from them. Um, but I can again imagine it's been a lot for you, um, based off of kind of your experience, where you're at today, and your own personal journey of development as a, as a startup founder. What lesson do you think has taken you the longest to unlearn so far?

Speaker A: Mhm. See, I just hate to sound like a broken record, um, because at this point it's, it's not really tactical business stuff. Right? Like, sure, I can have an opinion on something that I've seen or heard or experienced myself tactically from a strategy perspective, but one thing that I've learned is that even over the years, even the way that someone was able to grow a company or become successful, you'll find an example of uh, of someone who did it as well. And, and it was the exact opposite, the polar opposite of that. So, so I, I tend to not really have huge opinions on the tactical stuff. And it just always circles back to what this comment, this, you know, conversation or podcast is kind of honed on. It's, you know, that, that idea that I mentioned earlier, it's like being able to not be reactive, need make, you know, emotional decisions to continue to work on that. Because ultimately the journey, there is no destination. There's just not. I mean there, there are like nice things, right? You have a bigger house if you cash out or you can buy these toys or whatever. But my observation is, uh, is that from a lot of different, um, sources, close friends, you know, my experience too with certain things is that there is no destination. It always continues. And so you have to enjoy the journey. And so, you know, one of, to your question, like that's one of the biggest challenges is continuing to enjoy the journey and not get like tied up or wrapped up on like emotional rabbit holes or what if this or what if that, or look at those people, they're doing it or they're crushing it. Oh, you know, why didn't I make that, you know, this much money, you know, all these sorts of things keeping, keeping my internal dialogue in check. I know that's not that, uh, you know, useful, I think from m. Maybe a tactical perspective, but I would argue that if you're able to, to enjoy the journey, then you're going to be better suited to make decisions and you're you're not going to necessarily make decisions from a position of fear. Whether you, whether you're aware that fear, uh, is underneath or an influencing factor or not is another question. There's some cases where it's very obvious that you're in a fearful state. Stuff like founders shut down companies all the time.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker A: Right. And you know, I'm not saying like, look, I don't know. Right. I don't know the distribution uh, between like founders that shouldn't have shut down the companies and because they were so scared because of the very obvious real things that happen all the time and situations that they're in versus like they just burned out emotionally and, and gave up and maybe should have continued. But that's a good example of like. I would argue that m. There's a lot of founders out there that could have kept going and um, and didn't because fear was an influencing factor ultimately. Uh, allowing them to rationalize that. And I say that not based on opinion, like I've done it. I would say not all. There's certainly ventures that I put together in the, in the past that it was the right thing to do, to not pursue it anymore. Certainly learned a lot. So you know, failures. You, you mentioned failures earlier. What we call failures are actually not really failures. We just, they're learning experiences as cliche as that is. But it is absolutely a uh, thousand percent true. We call them um, failures because that's you know, just our language that we use to, to describe that experience. But um, but you know that, that's, that's what I would say.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And I love that. So my question to you now, and you mentioned that a lot of the stuff that you've shared also mindset, it's um, kind of higher level for the people who are struggling, other founders, um, and just people who are trying to find more balance. Again, you've had a lot of experience. Um, you're taking a lot of your experiences and Great, great way to correct that. Not failures, but lessons and life experiences that have kind of molded you to where you are today. Um, what would you say then are the tactical things that you regularly do to kind of keep yourself in check?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: With all the roles that you're playing. Right. As a, as a father, as a husband, um, as a founder of a company, as a student. Right. Of this life and what philosophy. What are the tactical things that you're doing regularly to just like I say, continue to continue to build your own emotional intelligence and your own self awareness and bring in your best Self to all those around you.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I will provide some tactical stuff and then some other stuff that is maybe more like um, internal work stuff, like internal inside yourself kind of stuff that, that helps as I, as I mentioned, I believe helps uh, the business overall. Tactical stuff. Let's just say B2B software company. You should be speaking to as many users or customers as possible forever, period. Um, like if, if you don't understand, I, I'm not suggesting that you should be the salesperson forever, but you should be the first salesperson and that should last for quite a while. And you should always be involved in some way or, or another in, in what's happening on the front lines from a sales perspective. Even if you're not a, ah, a founder that's inclined to uh, to participate or you're not wired that way. If you're gonna start a company you got to you know, these, these ideas or these days, uh, around like these days of like being just coding in the back. Um, I, I just don't, I don't know. Like, like I think there's a place where you could be building stuff if you're a technical founder. But this uh, means that you gotta like build that muscle to be customer facing. So that's one tactical thing. Always be doing what we call customer development. Right. Like that's the fancy term that we've been using the last couple years. Um, the other thing is setting from day one with your co founders, the, the foundation of what the culture for the organization is going to be and the type of organization that you're going to want to build and the possibilities that will stem from that. Uh, for example it may be that you just want to be a three person company. You don't want to do a venture back thing and you want to work three hours a day for you know, whatever, four days a week or something like that. And that's, that's what you're trying to do. Be very intentional. I think about that and about the possibilities like maybe that's you know, you, you and your partners are now aligned uh, around that and, and that might change. Right. But you know, being able to speak too. Well, if it did change, what would it have to look like? Right? Uh, oh, you know, leaving the, the door open for those possibilities but aligning on what that should look like. Certainly, uh, from day one it uh, may be that you want to build a big company, public company with 10,000 employees or whatever. Right. And, and you want to do this for 30 years. Okay, great. You know, but but setting, setting out um, with that intention and aligned uh, with um, you know, with your partners early on is going to be huge. And then that sets the tone for especially the second thing. Right? If you're going to build a big ass company like that, you want to start to think about what are those? Like you, you know, this is not just building product and getting customers. Like now I got like another customer which is called my employees that uh, I would argue is um, equally or even more important than uh, customers externally. Because you know, if your employees are unhappy, not motivated, inspired, even if you do get customers, it uh, ain't gonna last. Right? So um, you know, I know that some would argue against the idea that maybe employees are um, equal or even higher priority. You know, I hate to like try to quantify the importance between customers and employees, but let's just say that like at a minimum they are equally as important. Right? This is not a, hey, customers are the only thing. Revenue is the only thing that matters. Ah, that's very short sighted. Um, so you know, those are some tactical stuff. You know, I know again not, not rocket science, but it, but it's interesting because you have to think as a salesperson to start to talk to as many users as possible. So you're the salesperson, you're the market researcher slash product marketer, you're the founder, you know, you're doing all these sort of things. One of the, it's one of the challenges of being a found there. And then of course the, the other stuff that I mentioned around culture and intention of the type of business. Now some other tactical stuff about like some of this, cultivating some of the stuff that we talked about here, uh, constantly, constantly be reading. You can, you don't, I guess the books are out of the um, out of the view here but you know, constantly reading on these topics of self awareness, leadership, um, esoteric topics. If that's what you enjoy, right. Like you know, if you, if none of this resonates that that's cool. Like you know, I'm just speaking from my journey, right. But I do believe that this is a critical piece of being a great leader. Um, it may not be yoga and meditation and tai chi or you know, these more, maybe more traditionally Eastern spiritual or philosophy philosophical practices. You have stoicism, which is great, right? That even though it's, it's rooted in a lot of these like ancient Eastern philosophies and you see the overlap um, all the time, uh, you know, it's still kind of like Western Greek philosophy, Right. Kind of stuff. Um, so there's something out there that will be able to provide the wisdom around how to, how to live as peaceful and happy, joyful, you know, life. Right. Like whatever, however you want to call it, meditation, it could be running. I did a, a documentary series on startup CEOs and founders years ago. And so I went around Silicon Valley and some other areas interviewing uh, these CEOs and a hundred percent of the CEOs and I interviewed like leaders at VC firms too. Etc. They all had a practice of some sort of way of like connecting with their bodies and you know, something that would uh, help them release energy, stress, whatever you want to call it. And whether it was running or a lot, we're doing meditation, you know, some of the other things that I mentioned to you. So tactically that's one thing that I would also say find some sort of practice outside of the work and even outside of the family. Right. Because there's these practices like the running, like the yoga, like the what, you know, whatever that will then help you as a leader to be more centered and grounded when dealing with all the things that we have to do as leaders, ah, as entrepreneurs, but also with our families and our communities. Like we put ourselves in a better state of being. We're just going to be better in general and all of that stuff's going to be uh, in more of a flow, flow state. Right. So that's what, that's what I would say. Dig ins. Check it out. There's some flavor of this stuff that, that will resonate with you.

Speaker C: Yeah, I love that. Especially the, the thing you just mentioned at the end. So that sounds a very cool um, your, your little docu series, the, the founders that you um, interviewed. And it just from um, another podcast that I listened to, M. Diary of a CEO. Um, uh, he had um, a guest, I don't remember her name, something swore she's a neurosurgeon. Um, she's got a book called the Source. But one of the things that she mentioned, for example, which I was like, man, that's. You just don't think of that like, which you just touched on. So I'll just quickly describe it. This idea of, you know, if you're a leader, if you're a founder, um, your, the, you know, the value that you're bringing, it's really, it's housed in here. People are paying you for your brain, um, for kind of um, your experiences, your way of thinking and so the. I think a lot of people who are trying to move up the ladder or they're just trying to continue to just, they push themselves to the limit. The problem that a lot of these people, they end up getting burnt out. And so if people are paying you, if your experience or your life is rewarded because of your brain and you're not creating a conducive environment, AKA taking care of your, your body number one, that's going to be very quickly, you're going to reach burnout, you're not going to have any creative energy. You're just going to struggle to just function in all other areas of life. So a lot of type A personalities and people who are very focused on just rushing it all the time, you'll see, you know, they'll neglect sleep. And sleep is one of the most important hydration, exercise. So if you mentioned that um, 100% of the people that you had interviewed were doing something that just grounded them. Whether it's meditation, running, just getting you back out of the outside world and back and looking inward and then continuing, continuing to just cultivate and nurture that. That's, you know, what differentiates successful people from people who are not so. I love that when she shared that I was at the gym and I was like you thank God I'm here right now. Because again, for a while I used to think I need to keep doing more. And then you realize that the, the, the less you sleep, the less. And I would, especially after Covet happened, I remember I, I think a lot of people, they just stopped moving and so you're just constantly sitting there staring at a screen. And then especially creative people, you wonder why do I feel, just, why do I feel like I'm lacking energy, I'm lacking motivation is because of that. You know, because you're forced to just sit in one spot and you're not taking care of the vehicle. That's, that's helping you get to where you need to be in all areas of your life. So I love that you mentioned that. Something totally. That I think everyone should keep in mind.

Speaker A: Absolutely. It's not just uh, you know, hitting the hammer on the nail. Right. Uh, it's, it's giving yourself the space. People who are stressed or burned out or scared are not creative. It's like there's an analogy here that's going to be interesting or a correlation. People who are stressed, scared, all that are not loving.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: You're in a fight or flight state. You're not. That, that doesn't equal creativity. That doesn't, uh, equal innovation. You know, um, so it's, it's actually in your organization's best interest to, to be able to promote these things. And as, as leaders out there go to market founders boards, et cetera. Like, we should, um, we should understand the, the longer term benefits to the, to your commercial operation of uh, of implementing these principles.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, so true. Totally. Like you're in survival mode. You are not creative when you're in survival mode. I love that. Um, this has been a great conversation so far. I have got, um, the. I know we're running out of time here, but I've got rapid fire and uh, I'm definitely. There's a bunch of questions, standard questions I've asked, probably questions you've never heard before. But um, I'm just gonna. If you're ready for it, the idea is you gotta be quick. But nobody.

Speaker A: All right, let's rock and roll.

Speaker C: Let's do it. All right, um, copy. Your tea to fuel your workday.

Speaker A: Sorry, could you say coffee, coffee or

Speaker C: tea to fuel your workday? Tea. All right. Um, I felt like you would say tea now after talking to you. I'm like this guy, he's definitely a tea guy. What's your favorite tea?

Speaker A: I love chamomile tea and uh, ashwagandha.

Speaker C: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: Like more soothing and relaxing.

Speaker C: Yep, yep, yep, yep. Um, I recently was exposed to Asha Gwanda a couple of years ago when I was actually dealing with some anxiety and man, it just really calms you down and I started cutting out coffee for that. Um, describe your work style in one word.

Speaker A: Autonomous.

Speaker C: I like that. Um, what is your most strongly held professional belief?

Speaker A: That it's important to be heart centered and lead with, with that intention.

Speaker C: Mhm. I love that. What made you smile today?

Speaker A: My dog, Arthur.

Speaker C: What kind of dog is that?

Speaker A: He's a miniature long haired dachshund.

Speaker C: Oh, I've actually now I'm gonna google that miniature long haired dachshund. And how old is he?

Speaker A: A little over three.

Speaker C: Oh, he. Oh, cute. Adorable. I love that. You just have one dog?

Speaker A: Yeah, a dog and a cat.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Um, what made you. Oh, I just asked that one. What's your spirit fruit? Not your spirit animal. Your spirit fruit.

Speaker A: My spirit fruit. Papaya.

Speaker C: Why?

Speaker A: Because it's good for your stomach. Settling your stomach and so especially when you're just hold a lot of emotion in, in that sacral area.

Speaker C: Yep, yep.

Speaker A: Um, it's. It's good.

Speaker C: I should pick up. So I'm actually not, I've not. I do not regularly consume. Maybe I've had it once by accident, but I'm gonna pick up some of fire.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker C: Are you salty on it with honey on it?

Speaker A: Yeah, put a little honey on it.

Speaker C: Oh, that sounds. That sounds very nice. Um, are you salty or sweet?

Speaker A: Salty.

Speaker C: What was your last impulse buy?

Speaker A: Acupuncture. I don't buy anything. So.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I should. I have not. Also acupuncture, something I have to add to my list of things I've never done. Um, what title would you give this chapter of your life?

Speaker A: Growth.

Speaker C: I love that. What is one random thing you cannot live without?

Speaker A: My wife.

Speaker C: It's very, very good answer. And then who inspires you? Who do you think we should invite onto the.

Speaker A: Wow, there's a lot, there are a lot of people. Um, you know my buddy Joe Caprio. Uh, there's so many people. Actually it depends on what topic you want to get into from a go to market and perspective and just building companies and all that. My buddy Joe Caprio, he's a partner at Glasswing, uh, Ventures with a venture capital firm, uh, in, in Boston. And uh, yeah, I got a lot of love for, for the guy. Um, but also Gaetano, uh, Denari, who's a, He's a growth. Also go to market growth genius, specifically, really awesome at uh, SEO. Um, he's like known as like the SEO guru in B2B, also based here in Miami. Former sales hacker, VP of marketing, was, you know, VP at Nextiva. A lot of, A lot of stuff built. Built early day marketing at pipedrive, the CRM. So yeah, a lot of, A lot of folks. Um, there is a guy if you want to dig into emotional intelligence. Um, his name is Phil Johnson and he's on um, LinkedIn. You can find him there. And he's got like a whole emotional intelligence leadership management program that he's put together. He's, I think he's based in Canada. Uh, he's really great.

Speaker C: Very nice fellow Canadian. I will definitely check him out in Canada.

Speaker A: Nice Vancouver.

Speaker C: Um, wonderful. Yeah. I'm gonna email you, I'm gonna get some names, but I love that. Okay. You had shared, you had shared a bunch already when we were talking, um, people. That sound very interesting. Well, again, this was an absolutely amazing episode. I always love like. And the founder stories are very interesting because you end up just uh, like I said, marketing. Like this stuff is important, but at the end of the day we're people doing jobs. And so just understanding your state of mind and how you're approaching kind of leadership, your company, how you're taking care of yourself. I think all the stuff that we touched on today so important. So I absolutely had a blast today. Um, and I think our viewers will too. Our listeners. Um, are you available Anywhere else besides LinkedIn? Is that the primary channel? And how can people find you? How can they connect?

Speaker A: Yeah, LinkedIn, Startup George, but also Startup George, or it's spelled J O R G as we discussed, uh, at the top of the show. Also, um, LinkedIn, not LinkedIn, Twitter rather, or whatever. Xnow x I should say. Um, so, yeah, LinkedIn x slash, Twitter. The. My Instagram is mostly like private family friends kind of thing. And Facebook. I, I haven't really spent a lot of time on. I know I should get into tick tock, but I, I just, I, I haven't been able to, uh, snap. Um, I'm on those things too, but I haven't used snap in, I don't know, five years or something like that. Yeah, uh, but yeah, LinkedIn and LinkedIn

Speaker C: and X. LinkedIn and X. Okay, yeah, same here. And we'll share it out when this episode goes live. But thank you again for joining us.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, thank you so much for

Speaker C: the opportunity, of course, and for our listeners. If you like this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it out with the world. Um, until next time, keep experimenting, growing and stay inspired. Thanks, y'.

Speaker B: All. If you enjoyed this clip, be sure to subscribe to Growth Marketing Camp wherever you enjoy your podcast, podcasts.