The Creator Economy: When Content Is the Business

Speaker A: I'm Nora Schlesinger. I've been a content creator for over a decade, and I recently sold the content agency that I ran for eight years. Now I'm sitting down with other creators to talk about the real journeys behind building brands and growing audiences. We're learning from entrepreneurs, brand managers, CMOs, and individual creators about the strategies that worked, the ones that didn't, and the lessons they've learned along the way. So whether you're ready to experiment, learn, or build something of your own, welcome to the Content Lab. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the show. I'm here with my co host, Lindsay.

Speaker B: Hello.

Speaker A: Hello. So today we have a little bit of a different show. We typically talk about content as kind of a marketing activity that supports revenue generation for a brand or a product or service. But today we're going to talk about content itself as the revenue generator. So for this conversation, we're really excited to have an extra special guest. Gil Krueger is with us today. Gil is the founder and principal of Best Regards Media, which is an influencer management company, um, focused on content creators. Welcome, Gil.

Speaker B: Thank you for having me. This is really cool.

Speaker A: Yeah, we're super excited to have you. Yeah. Should we tell our listeners that Gil and I have known each other for more than half our lives?

Speaker C: I think it's important.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: We've been friends since we were 17.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. We met at a filmmaking summer program at nyu.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Sometimes I refer to it as a filmmaking summer camp.

Speaker A: Oh, it was absolutely summer camp. It was a bunch of teenagers in college dorms in the middle of Greenwich Village, like, for an entire summer. It was awesome.

Speaker B: I was in my mom's old dorm, like, the same floor, really. And, um, um, she came and visited and she was like, wow, it hasn't been renovated since the 70s.

Speaker A: Well, that was clear.

Speaker C: Just.

Speaker A: I mean, the walls were just like cinder block with three and a half inches of paint on it.

Speaker C: Yeah. I was like, I find that that's a common theme with. With colleges in general. I. That's how I felt when I was visiting UCSB a million years ago when I was deciding and I was just, like, walking. I was like, uh. And then I was touring UC Irvine, which was such a new college at the time in, you know, like, beautiful, like, OC area. And I was like, this one seems like a much better idea. Little did I know what was probably most important to choosing my college later. But, you know. Yeah, the cinder block thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was.

Speaker B: It was a little prisony.

Speaker C: It was a little prisony. It Was more a little narrow, but we still.

Speaker A: We made the best of it. It was freedom, and we were 17. I don't think we cared. Now, going back, you know, as an adult, I'm sure I would be just so, so skeeved out, but it was so much fun at the time.

Speaker B: It was a great time. It was a great time. And I still have some friends from that program.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Including Nora, of course.

Speaker C: I was gonna say here's one right now.

Speaker B: There's one right now.

Speaker A: Top of the list. Right.

Speaker B: Haven't seen her, though, in person in, like, 20 plus years.

Speaker A: Well, does Instagram count?

Speaker B: IG does not count.

Speaker A: Okay, then you're right.

Speaker B: Social media.

Speaker A: You're right.

Speaker C: Where are you located, Gil?

Speaker B: I'm in the suburbs of New York City.

Speaker C: Oh, okay.

Speaker B: Okay. Uh, which is another way of saying New Jersey.

Speaker A: She's a West coast person, so you do have to translate. I knew what you meant. New Jersey is not bad. Well, parts of it are, but the area you live in is pretty nice. Yeah.

Speaker B: Very easy to get into Manhattan. Very easy to. I'm very close to the airport, which I will be going to next week to visit Chicago for the first time.

Speaker C: Yay.

Speaker B: For 48 hours. A little bit longer.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Goodness.

Speaker A: It'll be fun. Hopefully. Hopefully. We want a terrible weather, but you never know. Anyway, anyway, so before we jump into the creator economy conversation, let's talk a little bit about you. So you have a unique background. You have an mfa, you went to film school, you worked in film production for a while. How did you end up getting from there to creator management, um, and building this roster of content creators?

Speaker B: I have a bfa. I have a bfa.

Speaker A: Well, take the extra credential then.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll take it.

Speaker C: Just.

Speaker A: Just tell the word.

Speaker B: As long as I don't have to take the debt. As long as I don't have to take the debt that goes along with it?

Speaker C: Fair enough.

Speaker A: Fair enough.

Speaker B: Then I'm good.

Speaker C: All right.

Speaker B: I am a recovering film and television executive, and, um, the thing is, is that I've been working with creators since 2012, and pretty much all the shows and movies that I produced or oversaw had content creators front and center. So, like, I produced a movie with three YouTubers in the lead roles, and it kicked off this whole trend of everybody making movies with creators, and they were almost all pretty terrible. I'd like to think that the ones I worked on were the least terrible.

Speaker A: Okay. So having seen Camp Dakota, I would say it was not even close to terrible. I loved that movie.

Speaker B: Oh, God bless. Thank you.

Speaker C: But it was ador.

Speaker A: No, it was adorable. It wasn't like a serious movie, but it was so fun. Everyone was great at it.

Speaker B: It was like a serious movie. It was only half a million dollar ending.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, it was fine. It was adorable. It was super entertaining.

Speaker B: It's a lifetime movie. I started Best regards media about 2 and a half years ago, a little bit less. And since then it's grown to a roster of seven creators, all of whom are video people. Um, I don't know, I don't know why I just went with video people, but I didn't want.

Speaker A: I think everyone's a video person. I know what you meant. I mean video is, is the place to be. So they're smart creators if nothing else.

Speaker B: I also, I also have a creator that's got quite an audience on LinkedIn and a newsletter and stuff like that. But ultimately video, Video forward. If it was a restaurant with the menu.

Speaker A: Yeah, there you go.

Speaker C: I love that.

Speaker A: So do you seek out video forward creators or like how do you decide who to work with?

Speaker B: I tend to only work with creators whose stuff I actually watch.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, if I wanted to make the most amount of money, I'd probably go sign like gaming creators or live streamers or frankly onlyfans creators.

Speaker A: Um, that feels like a slightly different industry that you'd be getting yourself into though.

Speaker B: Just slightly. Yeah, just slightly. I mean everybody has a price, I guess. But um, I, you know, I come from that film and TV background, so I gravitated towards sort of more cinematic creators on social media.

Speaker A: That makes sense.

Speaker C: You answered my question. I was gonna ask, so what are the kinds of creators that you gravitate towards? But you answered it.

Speaker A: Well, that makes sense. That's the line I think that connects. All of your education and experience up until this point is always sort of coming back to that video forward, if you will, perspective.

Speaker B: It started with filmmakers and then it expanded into designers. So like I represent a UX influencer. I uh, represent a graphic design influencer.

Speaker A: Oh, cool.

Speaker B: Um, is that Lindsey got excited about the UX I did.

Speaker C: I was with a, a, uh, design ops startup for quite some years and never knew how much I loved the world of design in ux, honestly, until I, until I joined that. So I do like that.

Speaker A: Very cool.

Speaker C: I also appreciate great design.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Don't look at my company's Instagram. I had chatgpt roast my company's Instagram design. It was not polite. Don't do that, don't do that.

Speaker A: Well, you did ask it to roast you, so that was predictable.

Speaker B: Prompting problems. Hashtag prompting problems.

Speaker A: There you go. Anyway, um, so what's interesting, I think, is how varied your creator roster is. Like they're all video producers, but I'm surprised to hear that you work in so many different categories. So how does that influence how, no pun intended, how you pursue opportunities for them?

Speaker B: So they're all cinematic storytellers, which is kind of a secret way of saying they're lifestyle creators. Because, um, if there's something that they're passionate about that aligns with their values or interests, they can do a brand partnership about it. But it all does kind of come back to this like high production value, what I call the a 24 of creators that I'm trying to build. So, you know, it starts with, okay, they make cinematic videos about their life. But then one client of mine is more of an outdoor person, so we'll do partnerships with REI or Garmin. Another person is more of, um, hears stories about living in my 20s and we just did a partnership with Bumble for example. But then there's an overlap across them with things like camera companies, music libraries, software, like Notion. A lot of them are real notion heads. So there's overlap. But then what keeps it interesting? Yeah, notion's great, but what keeps it interesting for me is those little sort of like offshoots of okay, this person's a little bit more of an outdoor creator, this person's a little bit more of a camera person, et cetera. So that's what kind of keeps it interesting.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Otherwise it would just be all Adobe deals, which I love working with our agency, but you know, it can get a little rote if you're not careful.

Speaker A: So you mentioned the agency, so it sounds like you're not the one actually going out and pitching these companies on your creators or like, can we take a step back and kind of talk about how you work? Because I think, I wonder and I'm sure a lot of people listening wonder like, what does it mean to actually be a manager of creators like these? And what is your, like what is your job? What is your relationship with these creators look like?

Speaker B: So I look at the job of a talent manager as somebody who guides creators on a day to day basis to grow their following, grow their revenue, diversify their revenue, and ultimately like just build a sort of category leading profile in whatever niche they're in. The majority of the job is brand partnerships. So connecting, uh, advertisers with my creators, sometimes that means I'm working directly with a brand and other times it means I'm going through an ad agency there, you know, a lot. All the big ad agencies and now PR companies have influencer divisions. So for example, for Adobe, I work with Golan a lot and um, sometimes I pitch them, sometimes they email my clients and, you know, sometimes email my client directly. It's a mix. But the majority of my job is sourcing and negotiating and then project managing partnerships between brands and my creator clients.

Speaker A: Gotcha. Uh, and do the creators have any sort of like, influence or say in who they work with? Do they come to you and say, like, I want to work with such and such brand, or do you say, Here are the 10 brands I think you should work with or like, how does that, how did these relationships sort of originate?

Speaker B: When I first onboard a creator to my roster, we sit down virtually usually, um, in this day and age, and we just kind of go through what brands they're passionate about, what they actually use, what products and services they they would use, and we kind of go from there. I'm always looking for quick wins. Quick wins. But it really does come down to, like, their preferences. They might have a camera brand that they're passionate about. Maybe they're really into Fujifilm and they don't want to partner with Sony or other companies like that or Nikon or Canon. So I always try to start with what do they actually like and use because that's going to be the most. I hate to use the word authentic, I really do, but that will be the most authentic video is something they actually care about and their audience. You know, audiences are smart. Like, they can tell when something is a cash grab versus like an actual endorsement of a, of some things that they like. So, um, they absolutely have a say. They have the say in who they work with. You know, I don't push clients because I'm independent. I'm not trying to hit some like, bonus goal. You know, I don't have somebody screaming down my neck going like, why is the revenue this instead of that? So I don't push my clients to take deals that I don't think make sense just to just for the sake of revenue. I know that's kind of a hot take, but, you know, it's like I think part of the manager's a fair take to me. Yeah, well, I think part of a manager's job, especially when a creator is really in demand, is just guiding them to say no to things and, you know, and for good reasons.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think Guiding them toward the right deals is important, but guiding them away from the wrong deals is arguably even more important. So saying no, uh, is pretty key.

Speaker B: I just got an email last night from a deal that I closed, and I was like, hey, just following up on the contract. And they said, oh, we like to rely on emails, but if you have a contract. Yeah. If you have a contract you'd like us to use, please send. Um, no, I. I mean, and it's a thing.

Speaker A: It's kind of a strange thing.

Speaker B: Brand. Yeah. I think maybe they just didn't want to go through the process of negotiation.

Speaker A: Do they have a procurement. I bet they have procurement. And they didn't want to deal with their, like, pseudo lawyers because that makes everything more complicated.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Pyramid Land is. Is the worst, but. Yeah, but also, no, we won't be doing that, because obvious reasons, we don't need to.

Speaker A: Lindsay has strong feelings about contracts and the sales process.

Speaker C: I do.

Speaker A: I know you do.

Speaker C: I'm not making.

Speaker A: I mean, I'm not making light of it. I'm completely serious.

Speaker C: No, I.

Speaker A: It's, uh, your wheelhouse.

Speaker C: That's. That's. That's part of. Yeah. I mean, yes, it's good to have contracts. It's good to have things to. To rely on.

Speaker A: There's a hot take for you. It's good to have contracts.

Speaker B: Get it in writing. And I don't write an email form.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker C: Things.

Speaker A: Not like, yeah, let's do it, but an actual, like, legal. Semi legal contract. All right, so let's take another step even further back. Uh, we're. We're supposed to be, you know, we. We reeled people in by telling. This was a conversation about the creator economy. So let's start with. WTF is the creator economy? How would you define the creator economy, Gil?

Speaker B: Oh, geez, that's a big one.

Speaker A: Uh, I didn't say this would be an easy conversation.

Speaker B: And I can't use the words in the definition either. So if I was like, well, it's an economy of creators, the creator.

Speaker A: You can start there, but then I'm going to push you to expand on that, give us more.

Speaker B: I'm going to talk like a movie trailer voice guy, where I'm like, imagine a world where people talk into their phones and influence other people to make purchases.

Speaker A: Um, this is the best definition I've ever heard.

Speaker B: You're welcome.

Speaker C: I mean, it's pretty good.

Speaker B: It is largely an advertising business. Um, and it's, you know, people that are not what we think of as traditional celebrities making Videos or writing blog posts. I mean, it really all did start with, like, reading blogs. Um, you know about blogs?

Speaker A: I was going to say, Nora, food blogs were. Did someone say something about sort of failed food blogs? That's another episode. That's a different episode. What? Yes.

Speaker B: I didn't hear it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, thanks for the plug, guys. It's an entire ecosystem of people that make content on the Internet and influencing other people to buy things. That is the creator economy in a nutshell. Um, people that built audiences. They don't have to be big audiences, mind you. We can get into what. What I mean by that. But like, people who have built an audience online that are not your kind of traditional TV or film celebrities who are endorsing things, products, services that other people are interested in and purchase, hopefully.

Speaker A: Well done. I think that was a great definition.

Speaker C: It was great.

Speaker A: So what is it about creators that sell things better than traditional advertising and marketing? Like, why do. Why are brands so excited to work with creators right now?

Speaker B: Brands are excited to work with creators right now because of the adage, you know, people buy from people. M. And they're just. People are more likely to make a decision based on someone that they identify with more closely recommending a product or service. You know, it's. It's. There's tv, uh, ads. Sure. Of a celebrity plugging a thing. But if you're a mom and you see another mom recommending a baby product in a. I hate to use the word authentic again, but in an authentic way, it matters.

Speaker A: No, it's a. I think it's a fair word. You. You're not overusing it.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, if you just see someone that. That. That looks or sounds or relates to you in a much more human way, you're more likely, I would say, to be influenced to making a purchase. I mean, ultimately, I'm in the ad business.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Didn't expect that when I went to film school. But I am in the advertising business.

Speaker A: But it's still all about film or video.

Speaker B: I traded Sundance for VidCon.

Speaker A: What's VidCon? I mean, I can get it from context, but tell us about VidCon.

Speaker B: VidCon is the largest annual gathering of video creators. Every year it's in Anaheim, California, in June.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. June.

Speaker B: That's my Super Bowl.

Speaker A: All right.

Speaker B: That's my Super Bowl. That's my Sunday.

Speaker A: Sounds awesome. It sounds really fun.

Speaker B: Yeah. I feel older every year.

Speaker A: I go, yeah, I feel older every time I log into Instagram.

Speaker B: Mm.

Speaker C: Just being on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: I know. I Mean, I feel old logging into Instagram because I'm logging into Instagram and not TikTok, so that alone makes me feel old. That's not.

Speaker B: And then I log into. I log into Facebook to look at all the old people.

Speaker A: Right, right. Who are.

Speaker B: And births and deaths, uh, who are

Speaker A: spreading, like, fake news and.

Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker A: Propaganda.

Speaker C: I know.

Speaker A: Copy and paste this or else Facebook owns everything you've ever posted.

Speaker B: Like, okay, I saw that today again.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, that's like. See, this is why you need contracts. That's like the email, you know, it's not legally binding. You can post all you want anyway. All right, so this is a big question, but how do brand deals work? Like. Like, if a brand wants to work with, like, Suzy creator, who has 11 bajillion followers, like, what does that look like?

Speaker B: Well, brand deals, they kind of all have the same components. There's deliverables, just, like, how many videos and where are they being posted? Shares usage, which is. Is the brand gonna, like, put paid media spend behind those videos and. And. Or are they gonna post to their own accounts? That's called organic usage. Um, there's exclusivity, which, you know, means, like, if you promote this type of detergent, you can't work with our competitors for X amount of time. And then I always say there's. There's Timing is. Is an important component of brand deals. Like how. How long is the term and when do I have to go live? But that, you know, it's. My friend Justin Moore has called the do rule deliverables usage exclusivity. And then I add the T so it becomes duet.

Speaker C: Duet.

Speaker A: Look at you.

Speaker B: Um, because timing. Timing does affect pricing.

Speaker A: Acronyms use. Yeah, of course.

Speaker B: But time.

Speaker A: Something done next week versus in two months. That's.

Speaker B: Yeah. Or there's gotta be a rush.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, in Q4. In Q4, creators are more in demand because of holidays, blah, blah, blah. So, um, the timing does matter. But, yeah, I mean, brand deal contracts, they're pretty. Like, the building blocks are, what am I making? Where is it going? What can you do with the videos?

Speaker C: Ah, how much money?

Speaker B: How much money and how. Who can I not work with That's a competitor for how long?

Speaker A: And you're the person, like, negotiating these. I mean, obviously, the creator is not talking to, like, the marketing director at, you know, the detergent company. It's. You're the middleman here.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm the middleman negotiating the partnership between the brand and the creator. Um, although my creators Are, I would say like pretty involved, you know, I'm not just making decisions willy nilly on their behalf without consulting them. Yeah, but um, yeah, I'm, I'm also like redlining the contracts and then sending the deliverables back and forth as they get written or filmed. So it's, it's sort of like part job sourcer, part negotiator, part project manager, that's you know, part uh, consigliere, if you will.

Speaker C: Fancy word. I was gonna ask how often are you getting, uh, your clients having contracts that have specificity in exactly what needs to be said? Or is it 5050 or whatever? I guess what I'm trying to ask is how often are they kind of being asked to use this script or make sure you say these things versus giving them a lot of creative freedom to just make it how they want.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would say the creative freedom really depends on the brand and their attitude towards creators. I've been pretty lucky in that, you know, I typically wouldn't do a deal if I knew that my creators were going to have to read from a script verbatim. You know, my favorite is when it's a brief that has like do's and don'ts or example videos that have worked for the brand in the past or thought starters, questions, things like that.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, there's, there's a whole subsystem or sub industry of the creator economy called ugc and that's where it's okay to like give a script to a creator. You know that because they're more like, it's more like hiring a model to do a photo shoot.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, whereas you know, when you're working with like a creator creator, then it's more like you're hiring a, a sort of a one person personality driven production company. And I think brands have, are hip to the fact that, you know, the more controlling they are with the words that are coming out of the creator's mouth, the less authentic. You said it. I gave you the, I gave you the opportunity and you took.

Speaker A: An alternate term would be organic maybe, but I agree, I think off the. Yeah.

Speaker B: Or we could say natural.

Speaker C: You know, the less uh, natural it is.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's true.

Speaker B: I mean audiences are smart.

Speaker A: Feels like over here like googling the thesaurus.

Speaker B: No, I'm just shifting, just shifting in my, shifting in my chair. Um, but yeah, that's, that was a great question. Thank you.

Speaker C: I think it's a, it's a fair thing for us to come back to this. Authenticity. Natural Conversation, though, because I think, you know, you've, you said you've been doing this for about two and a half years, and you'll now see in the LinkedIn world that this is becoming a thing in the last 12 months, I would say, in terms of, like, there's now companies or agencies that are doing what you're doing, but for LinkedIn creators. And you are now also seeing a lot of people put posts with their opinions about how they feel about sponsored posts, when they, when they like them, when they don't. And most people pretty much are like, I'm cool with it as long as it feels authentic. If it feels like the creator either genuinely uses that product or would use it, how would they use it? And it also goes along with whatever personality and brand that they've already been putting out. Because I just did one earlier this week and then literally, like a couple hours later, someone I'm connected with did a post kind of ranting about sponsored posts and when they're good or not. So I made a joke. It wasn't. I would, I wouldn't even call it a rant. It wasn't a rant. It was, it was an opinion. Uh, and I said, oh, uh, so did I do a good job on mine then?

Speaker B: Oh, you.

Speaker C: And I opened it up.

Speaker B: Wait, so you were hired to do a sponsored LinkedIn post?

Speaker C: I was, yeah.

Speaker B: And what was the, what was the brand?

Speaker C: It's for Lucia. It's a software that is fairly well known, I feel like in, especially in early stage tech. And he said, no, I really liked yours because you, one, explained that you are using it, first of all. And two, even if you weren't, you explained how you would use it, why you liked it, like, what it was, what made it special for you. He was like. And then my, my, my brand on LinkedIn is very, uh, a little unhinged. I'm a little nuts on there and I do a lot.

Speaker A: Just the right amount of unhinged following immediately. Oh, you're not already following. Oh my God, you're not.

Speaker C: I know we need to, we need to fix that.

Speaker A: But if you're LinkedIn, you don't already follow Lindsay. Pause this episode and go follow Lindsay.

Speaker C: Talking about creators I hate.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, well, LinkedIn is the new frontier, right? Like, it's the new frontier is the new frontier of brand partnerships. And you have professionals in all kinds of industries being paid by brands to hawk certain brands, products, or usually SaaS tools. I represent a creator named Designer Tom who has an audience of 60,000 people on LinkedIn. And so we do sponsored LinkedIn posts, uh, you know, fairly often. It always has to be a product that he's like, already using or it doesn't really, doesn't really fit. Um, because you know, that that's definitely a crowd that will turn on you if they feel like it doesn't. And there is a lot of discourse, as you pointed out on LinkedIn about whether these campaigns are being effectively done. Um, there's also conversations about disclosure and people not disclosing. Ah, you know, yeah, influencer. M. It's, it's quite funny when, um, an influencer marketing professional is paid to do a post and they're not disclosing that it's an ad, right, where you're

Speaker C: supposed to put, you know, sponsored post. Well, and the thing is, is that because of that, if there's. Because here's the other thing that I guess helped me a little bit because I, I asked for the feedback openly. Right. Uh, on the guy's post too. I didn't DM him and ask him, so I was okay with it. But when I have shouted out a tool or a company that I love just because I wanted to, I have to make sure I put, like, by the way, this isn't sponsored. This is just me sharing personally, you know, because otherwise I actually. So I have a, um, a friend. And the reason why I'd asked you the question I did right before this is I wanted to see how many parallels exist between, you know, what you've been doing and now what's coming over into LinkedIn. But, um, I have a friend who does do brand partnerships as well. And first she got, she got bummed out because they, the company wanted her to change her video and what she said. And she was, at first she was like, I don't, I don't want to. Like, I. This is, this is me and this is my message. I said, well, I think you can still do this authentically. There's your favorite word again with taking some of the notes. And I don't think it has to ruin, you know, the, the personality that you've created and everything. And so she, she ended up going for it and changing it, and it worked out fine. But I think for her, she's realizing I don't really want to do ones where I'm getting directed in any sort. Um, I just want to do what I want to do. And for me, I'm like, I don't think I want that much freedom. I want a little direction. Right. That's another reason why I asked, but I like it in the way like the most recent one I got was very similar. It was like, do, please kind of focus on this part. Um, I didn't get any don'ts. I would have been happy with that. They gave me a lot of material to look at to, you know, I guess get some ideas of the content. But other than that, it was just like, go do the thing you do. And so I'm like, okay, hopefully you like this. And the due date was not like, here, give it to us by this date so we have enough time to go back and forth. So I could have, I asked them because for me I was like, I, like, I don't want to post it. And then you'd be like, Lucia wasn't happy with that or it, you know, we could have given you feedback. So I said, would you like me to send you the copy and the video ahead of time? And they said, sure, that'd be great. But it wasn't a requirement.

Speaker B: So that's interesting.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: I found it.

Speaker A: They're new to working with creators.

Speaker B: Yeah, they're not.

Speaker C: They're not. Because I wasn't working with Lucia. I have my own person that's. I have a, I have a gill. So like, I guess I'm just surprised on LinkedIn how loose it still is where they're kind of like, post it on your page and you know, and you, you hope for the best.

Speaker B: I've only ever done one deal where the brand said, you have complete and total creative freedom. We do not need to review the video before it goes live. Bada bing, bada boom. That's it. I usually negotiate that. It is wild. And it was a, it was a really high paying deal too. But I typically negotiate a script stage so that the brand is aligned and saying, yes, our messaging is out there. But it's like, it's. This is the right combination of like endorsement without feeling too much of a cash grab or sell out kind of thing. Authenticity, endorsement and authenticity. And then typically I'll negotiate like a number of revisions that are capped on the video asset or LinkedIn post. But I'd prefer to have the script approved so that it cuts down on the reshits. Mhm. Because the feedback might be like, oh, can they say this instead of that? And I'll just go, hey, we had an approved script.

Speaker C: Right? Right.

Speaker B: So you know, tough noogies. But like, you know, I have a, I have a LinkedIn partnership going live next Tuesday where we send the brand the script Then we send them a cut of the video. They get one round of revisions on the video and the text that accompanies it on LinkedIn and then we're off to the races. So yeah, I mean it. LinkedIn is still kind of a little bit of a wild west, although it is quickly getting more professionalized. There's agencies like vin, which is what called creator buzz, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah. Mhm.

Speaker B: There's creator match from AJ Eckstein. There's creator authority. A lot of words with creator in that creator.

Speaker C: I can't remember the name of another one that, um, he's out there, but he really represents people who are like. Like your guy with the 60,000 followers and the hundred thousand.

Speaker B: I know who you're talking about. I think the Apollo person is like Zoe. Something I think might be represented by them. Um.

Speaker C: Oh, Zoe Hart. Field.

Speaker B: Field, yeah, something like that.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: See it works. We remember people's names and stuff. But yeah. So I know some, you know, some friends that. Or over there. And for me I was just like, uh, I don't know. I remember when I signed this last contract though, and it says on there like influencer. Right. When it's. And I was just like, oh. And I sent it to my husband, a screenshot and I was like, oh my God, I'm. I'm the worst now. And he was like, there is a

Speaker B: stigma, the word influencer. And I.

Speaker A: Let's hear what you think about influencer. Dirty words.

Speaker B: So the, so the industry is influencer marketing. And I'm fine with that. Whatever. But I think the term influencer originated because of like Instagram models.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: In, you know, 2012 that were, that were promoting like belly teas and things like that, you know, tummy tea and you know, and, and other kinds of supplements and just that were just sort of vapid or vacuous, you know, pretty

Speaker C: people, stuff that didn't actually work too.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And that were sort of, you know, frau. Borderline fraudulent supplements and things like that. So the term influencer, it has a stigma to it. I prefer the term creator. Um, but I think it's also too important. And this has been. There's so much discourse about this on LinkedIn. It's not like an original thought, but there is a difference now between the term creator and the term influencer.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Because there is. Some creators are really good for awareness and like just eyeballs and getting the message out there, but they don't necessarily convert people to like a point of point of sale, point of purchase, whereas literally Influence.

Speaker A: Like yeah, it sounds like influencers are expected to actually influence.

Speaker B: Yes, yes, revenue. Like a mom influencer, for example, you know, posts uh, a link sticker on their Instagram story and all of a sudden the product sells out.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: That's an influencer.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker B: You could say like all influencers are creators, but not all creators are influencers.

Speaker A: I suppose that's going to be our like.

Speaker C: Yeah, I was gonna say that's really good. That's really good.

Speaker B: It's not an original thought. Like I've seen that, but yeah, I'll take it.

Speaker A: But it's good. No, I mean I think that that sums it up really well because one of the, you know, goals of this conversation is to educate listeners about like how do you work with influencers or creators? And I think the first step is know the difference. What are some of the other important things to know about working with influencers or creators? And like what are the mistakes to avoid if you're a brand?

Speaker B: I m mean, I think it's really easy to go broke doing influencer marketing if you're not careful. You know, as, as much as I want to complain, like oh, this brand's rates are too low or they're too mathematical, like I totally get it. You know, like brands are trying to hedge their risks. I would say personally I'm a fan of not a spray and pray method and not also putting all their eggs in one creator's basket. But like kind of that middle, that middle range of like, okay, we're gonna have taste and we're gonna be selective, but we're not gonna pay one person 50,000 and we're not gonna pay. Don't make me do math. But like we're not gonna pay everyone $500 either. It's just sort of in that middle tier. Like I'd rather they take five creators and pay them ten grand than one creator and pay them fifty. Unless it is so clear cut in the Data that that one person who charges $50,000 is a converter like nobody's business.

Speaker C: Right, right. They have the history and the stats.

Speaker A: But how common is that?

Speaker B: Which, which part?

Speaker A: The, the you know, picture perfect kind of like this creator that will absolutely get the job done because their following is so huge and so loyal that they sell out products. That sounds like a unicorn.

Speaker B: They exist, of course.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: No, I mean they exist. I don't know how many there are because I would say I tend to represent creators who are better for awareness.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Then conversion. That's not across the roster. But I would say I tend to represent people that are better for awareness, especially if you're trying to reach other creators. So let's say you're a music library or you're launching a new vlogging camera. My creators are perfect for that because their audience is fellow creators at different levels of their stages of their journey. But if you want to sell a very specific widget, it might not necessarily be the right fit.

Speaker C: Right. How do you. I, uh, guess two questions. If you're looking for a new creator to represent, work with. And then alternatively or additionally, I should say when you're say, uh, negotiating a deal with one and you're talking about the fact that across generally you have ones that are best for awareness, what are the sort of statistics or results that you would look at or use to say this is someone who's great for awareness? I think we all can kind of already guess this is someone good at influencing conversion, signups, purchases, whatever. But what are you using for the awareness, statistics and proof?

Speaker B: Well, it's not like the brands are giving me access to brand lift studies or things like that, you know, I wish. Um, and in fact you don't always know if the creator is converting either, because brands don't like to share that data with the managers or the creators themselves. Cause it's just leverage for the next negotiation. I look at a combination of. Right. I mean, the only signal sometimes that you get from these brands that something is working is they renew and do another contract. And that's like, oh, okay, I must have sold. But they won't necessarily tell you how many units of something you sold, because then you're just going to leverage that in a negotiation. And then what you hope is that the brand is just fair and they're going to pay you more as a sign of respect and partnership. Uh, I look at average views or median views. I look at consistency when I'm thinking about taking on a creator. You know, if they're a YouTuber, do they get videos that do 3,000 views and then the next one is 50,000 views or is it a consistent 50,000 views? I mean, those are things that are important because brands tend to price, especially YouTube integrations. But brands tend to price things, uh, at least in the back of an Atkins sense, based on average or median views. And so if your views are a, uh, wa. If there's a huge delta or variance, then it's going to be really tricky to price out that sponsorship because a brand doesn't know, like, are they going to get a video that's 3,000 views. Or are they going to get one with 50,000? And so the deal structure is going to look very different or the rate, the flat fee is going to be much different than if somebody was just consistently 50,000. 50,000.

Speaker C: 50,000, yeah. That makes. I mean, what. Do comments and, like, reactions seem to matter as much on YouTube as it does on LinkedIn?

Speaker B: Engagement definitely matters. And one of the things that I look for when I'm thinking about signing a new talent is the engagement and the quality of the engagement. Personally, I'm not doing math in my head of like, oh, this person's engagement rate is 5% or 7%. I am looking, however, at the quality of comments. You know, what are people saying? Is it just things like, really vapid, like, you're so pretty, or is it like, great video. Right. Or is it people, like, engaging with, like, the theme or the message of the, of the video? You know, that's what I look for because I'm like, oh, this person's actually, like, got, uh, a human connection going.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Versus, like, they're just sort of there for. The people are just there because they're pretty.

Speaker C: Right. Or they're just a friend that are, you know, they're supporting them.

Speaker B: Right. I can also recognize engagement pods where it's just like the same group of people, same people commenting in every video. You can kind of filter those out if, if you're good at pattern recognition.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean, um, it would. I saw a really interesting post on LinkedIn recently. I didn't save it, of course, because also LinkedIn's whole UI with, like, getting back to anything you ever saved, you

Speaker A: can't find anything you've ever saved, so

Speaker C: I don't bother doing it.

Speaker B: Yeah. When you save a LinkedIn post just goes into the trash, I think.

Speaker C: Yeah. But it had to do with actually measuring the amount of comments or reactions. Don't remember which one. Against the, um, number of impressions as a really good measure of, like, how well your video's doing and because there, every day there's some new person saying what's supposed to be good about your. Your stats. Right. On LinkedIn, it's. It's the impressions and then, like, no, it's the engagement and then. No, like, it's. It's the amount of seconds. If you have a video that averages based off the length that you're in, you're like, there's, okay, whatever.

Speaker A: Um, but seems like no one really knows. Everyone's just.

Speaker C: Well, again, this just explains why it

Speaker A: links Spaghetti at the wall.

Speaker C: It is. It's still a little wild, wild west out there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, but I did think that that was actually a really practical way of thinking about, of uh, the amount of impressions so views supposedly, you know, someone got on this content, what's the amount people are engaging with, what's that ratio? You know, and I think that's in my opinion more valuable than like I have a couple things that have gone crazy on the impression count, but if I only got a couple, you know, a small, small percentage of people who felt compelled to react or engage with it, what does it matter? It doesn't mean that I did anything good. It means the algorithm took it and spread it around. Right. So I thought that was interesting. But I, I'm So like with YouTube, I, I don't feel like there's as many visible from the outside things that you can look at as there is on LinkedIn because there's reposts, there's comments, there's likes.

Speaker B: Sure, right, yeah, you can't see shares on YouTube.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You can see, you can see how many people made a clip of it into a YouTube short, which is like an signal that's. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's usually just the number of, of likes and, and comments and you know, that's kind of all you can really see. And views, of course.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, and I know that a lot of these companies on LinkedIn or brands will ask you to share your impressions, just you know, to gauge rates and things like that, but I was actually interested in one of my recent ones where they were more looking at the average likes I got on my videos and I was like, oh, uh, I, I, in my head I've always thought of the reactions as like the least valuable metric.

Speaker B: So because it's such an easy thing to do is just to get click like you don't even have to read the post.

Speaker C: Right. Yeah. So I thought it was interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think everyone's still kind of figuring out LinkedIn, especially if you've never really been super active as a creator on other channels. Because a lot of it to me is mimicking my experience as a very, very low level creator on Instagram like years ago in the sort of height of the sponsor, Well, I mean in the food blogging industry, like height of the sponsored post, you know, wave on Instagram and like now it just feels like the same thing is starting to in on LinkedIn. But not everyone, I mean most people don't have that experience of having seen it on another channel. So I, uh, mean it's, it's interesting to see it kind of play out like this from nearly nothing into a, uh, sort of more mature version of a social media channel.

Speaker C: What I do think is really interesting on LinkedIn is you talked about UGC, Gil. Now the big thing is EGC on LinkedIn.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And. Right.

Speaker A: And um, for those, you should define those two terms. I don't think we ever did.

Speaker C: UGC is. Well actually let me make sure you define it Gail, before I.

Speaker B: Well, I may have used it improperly too because there's a growing contingent of people that, that think that what, what I call UGC should be cgc, which is creator generated content. So I guess I'll break down ugc, CGC and egc. Why not? So ugc, User generated content. If you're sweetgreen and you just happen on somebody's reel that they posted, not necessarily a creator, just like an average person going like, look at my new French fries from sweetgreen. That's ugc. You can contact that creator and you can license the video if you want. That's ugc. Creator generated content is when you are specifically hiring a creator to make something. But it could either be like a script read or it could be like a brand partnership that's like more traditional like the ones I do. EGC is really interesting. Employee generated content, if I'm understanding it correctly, is when, let's say it happens a lot at tech companies.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: But it's like, you know, your head of business development is going to be very prolific on LinkedIn, for example, as a means of almost lead generation. And that's ah, employee generated content. Or your head of social media will be a very visible presence on your account. That would also count as like employee generated content. So that's how I understand it.

Speaker C: Yeah, well. And I was never very active on LinkedIn at all until about a year and a half ago and I started noticing what we now call a lot of egc. And I was like, I really thought it was cool because for those that I thought were doing it really well, they weren't doing it to promote the company they worked at. That was what was interesting. Right. It wasn't actually like I work at Gong and GONG is the best and the tool is so cool. It was just a person who happened to work at Gong creating content that people liked. And an example of this was, and GONG was actually one of the first tech companies to purposely, intentionally start doing egc. They actually got like a handful of people in the company and they were already huge by then that they, I think, were already kind of doing things on LinkedIn and just said, can you be more specific and consistent about posting content, you know, and maybe have some pillars that you focus on for your themes or whatever. One of these guys was an SDR. People don't give SDRs a whole lot of clout and think of them as thought leaders, right? You talk about like, oh, it might be the head of social. And then you'd be like, oh, well, I want to hear what the head of social has to say. They don't think about, I want to hear what an SDR has to say. But actually we do because this guy, one, he's very funny and he was making very good funny content. He's also a parent working from home when he'd have his baby there and he'd do funny stuff about that. So he started making this relatable content, talking about what it was like, cold calling, cold prospecting day in and day out. There's a lot of people on LinkedIn that are doing that. And so it just resonated with people so much. And therefore, when people think of this guy, they're also like, oh, I love Gong because I love Will. Right? Like, it was just. And to your point earlier about people buy from people that they like. That's why I feel like this EGC thing's like taking off. But so many companies don't know how to do it either. And I actually have to.

Speaker A: I was gonna say there's definitely an execution problem.

Speaker C: There's a huge execution problem.

Speaker A: You can't just say like, egc, go. You know.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: I've seen so many tools being like, you know, it'll help get your employees on social media or like some like, very vague sort of promise and you're like, and then what?

Speaker C: Right, well. And even we kind of tried, right? Like you and I, when we kind of told the rest of the team like six months ago, like, we're actually having some luck being on here, you know, go, go do it. You know, but like if there's not every person is gonna want to or, or it's not their jam. So I have two good friends that

Speaker A: are role is appropriate for.

Speaker C: Yeah, not everyone.

Speaker A: Like, I think that, you know, we saw Heather is an amazing writer and so she would get on there, she would do her thing, she would write some really well crafted, interesting, engaging, you know, piece and then she would get tons and tons and tons of engagement. But it turns out. And so like on paper, everything like, was great. Super successful. But then it turns out that everyone who followed her and engaged would be writers. And that's not really who we're trying to reach.

Speaker C: It wasn't actually.

Speaker A: I mean, we like, we like meeting new writers. It's. It's helpful for us to have a network of really great freelance writers. But ultimately we weren't trying to connect with more writers. And so her content was super effective, but the wrong audience. It was, it was, it was effective with the wrong. The wrong icp.

Speaker C: Yeah. I have two really good friends that are now starting their own company that will be kind of like your skill, but for partnering with companies that want to do EGC and teaching them how to do it and then helping them create the stress, all that stuff. And, uh, actually he posted a video just today explaining that one thing you can't do is just start asking all your employees to just start posting. It doesn't work like that. In fact, just go pick the ones that probably are already active on LinkedIn, you know. And so I was like, oh, yeah, see, that tip alone is probably so helpful for all these companies who are just trying to tell their social selling is working, you gotta get on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Well, I feel like the key to most things though is like, empower them and get out of their way. Not just.

Speaker C: He did say that too, right? He said you gotta let it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I would also say, like, incentivize and compensate them if they're. If they're gonna have.

Speaker C: That's a great point.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. I know that's like such a talent manager thing to say, but, you know, these employees should be incentivized or compensated if they're going to have to just like, go the extra mile, build in public, put themselves out there when they wouldn't ordinarily do, so that should be valued somehow.

Speaker C: I completely agree with that.

Speaker A: That's a great point.

Speaker C: Especially, uh. That's not really fair to say. I was going to say especially if they're salespeople, because it's taking from their quota achievement, but everyone's got a quota in their role to some extent. So I'd say.

Speaker A: Right. I think anytime you're adding on to the scope of their job, because I guarantee when people were hired, m. I mean, maybe now there's a few descriptions, but like 99% of people, when they were hired for their job, the job that they signed on for did not include being a. An aspiring LinkedIn or, uh, you know, other social media influencer. And so if you're suddenly like now you have to learn this whole new skill, find the time for it, find the creative energy for it. It's hard. I mean, I, I'm partly speaking from experience because I sort of gave myself that mandate, whatever it was, you know, close to a year ago now. And boy, it was hard for the first. You know, it took me like a good six months just to write my own content because I was so, uh,

Speaker C: especially frazzled by it. Been doing it. Because now you're learning and doing. Exactly. Yeah. Actually, you know what's interesting is that companies are starting to hire for roles that specifically focus on doing content creation. But there's uh, a.

Speaker A: Like on employee's behalf, do you mean, or no.

Speaker C: So actually this was interesting because I, I actually have a friend whom is talking about potentially doing this at a company and they. It can't just be to be at egc, you know, like, it's not just that, but it involves creating community on LinkedIn for the brand as well. So to have, if you could imagine, like, if you had a dedicated person to do that for your company, that's. That seems like a pretty good idea.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Obviously, if you become humongous and you're a huge company, you'd have a team of it as well. But he would sit under the marketing team and it's being seen as a marketing function. And I'm like, and you know, the guy, he creates great content. So that's why they actually talked to him about a customer success role and went, you know, one thing that we really don't do well and we have no idea how to is social selling. Like, what about this? So I thought that that was cool that that's now becoming a category of its own.

Speaker A: Yeah, that feels like a really natural evolution though. Of what? You know, I, I say like, we, not we as a company, but like we as sort of a, a business, um, community, have like been doing on social, on other social media chat channels.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: There's been community managers on Facebook there. You know, there was a period where like Facebook groups were this big.

Speaker C: Oh my God. Remember that? Oh my God.

Speaker A: It was like every, every brand has to have like a Facebook group. And you know, again, I was like in the food space then. And so to me it was always like social media such and such recipe. Like, uh, that those are the ones that I always saw. But every brand had to have like a Facebook group. But like the idea of cultivating an active community to drive word of mouth, you know, and organic marketing, m efforts, social proof, all of that is not a new concept. It's just everyone's kind of like, ooh, LinkedIn's pretty untouched. How do we, uh, translate this to this new kind of frontier? And it's really, really an interesting place to be and thing to see right now.

Speaker C: And I've been. My nephew, about eight months ago was like, you're starting to blow up on LinkedIn. You gotta get on TikTok. And I was like, ain't gonna happen. Um, and then even my really different type of, really not different creation, um, and then my really good friend was like, you're doing all this content on LinkedIn, like you would make money if you go on YouTube, you know, and I'm like, yeah, here's the thing. I've never, uh, not that I ever tried really, but I've never resonated on a social media platform and grown in like a, like an audience and then started creating a brand for myself. So if it's working on LinkedIn, there's a reason, like, mhm. Because one of the most important parts of my life is my career. Like, I love my career. It's important to me and I'm passionate about it. So if I'm mixing that now with, dare I say, I can't believe I create content like, that works for me. And they're like, yeah, but they have it on LinkedIn. I'm just. Or on TikTok and YouTube. And I'm like, it's just not my world.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like, yeah, if you force it. I imagine that's a big part of finding the right creator skill, like finding the people whose passion is sort of big enough to sustain this work as a business. Because if you're not passionate about it, if you're just doing it because it worked on the other channel or because I want to make money doing it, you know, like, I, I can, I have this skill I can monetize. But, like, it's not really your passion. I mean, it shows, you know, it. I think this goes back to your point, Gil, about, like, the authenticity of a sponsored post and how viewers or, you know, consumers can always tell when it's a cash grab. And you know that really.

Speaker B: And I'm not saying there's anything, nothing wrong with the occasional cash grab.

Speaker A: Folks look, absolutely no judgment.

Speaker B: We listen, I'm happily going to earn 20% of a cash grab.

Speaker A: Right? Right. But the whole, like, profile can't be a cash, uh, like the, the, you know, the presence on a channel can't be a cash grab. It has to be kind of the foundation has to be there of passion and, you know, wanting to be on this platform and create this type of content.

Speaker C: So, I mean, ideally it just, it already goes in and out of your life of what you're doing. Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, that's why LinkedIn seemed to have worked for me because, yeah, I, despite my, uh, what did I call it? Uh, unhinged things, I. I do very often speak about sales leadership. Fractional leadership. Right. You know, being in startups, all that stuff. So it, it's something I can speak about, you know, and I think that's part of it.

Speaker B: I'm excited for this. Unhinged.

Speaker A: It's awesome. Lindsay's content is so. It's like, relatable, but still very educational. It's not even like a topic that I would say I'm interested in. And some days I would say I'm like, appalled by, like, everything sales related, But Lindsay makes it so interesting and like, I want to learn more even though I am terrible at sales and don't enjoy sales.

Speaker C: Say that all the time, but it's

Speaker A: just, don't want anything to do with sales. Don't let me near sales.

Speaker B: But I just absolutely.

Speaker A: I still want to learn everything I can from Lindsay.

Speaker C: Can't wait. Yeah, I'm excited. It's also fun that there's still this group, uh, of people on LinkedIn who are like, stop putting your personal stuff.

Speaker A: I know it's not professional.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I'm like, well, m. Okay.

Speaker A: Like, they're the same people that are issuing the return to work, return to office.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah. It's all the same group of people. But I'm always like, I'll just keep going with my chicken parm as my background image.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: You don't have to follow me.

Speaker A: I know, I know. I'll never get. I mean, this is just like a personal, like, soapbox. But I will never get over people who are like, stop posting or how dare you? It's like, you can move along. Uh, you don't need to stop and comment. You don't need to follow. For the people who say, like, I'm unfollowing. Okay.

Speaker B: My favorite, my favorite expression.

Speaker A: Cry myself to sleep.

Speaker B: Yeah. My favorite expression when somebody says, like, they're unfollowing is to say, this is not an airport. You don't need to announce your departure.

Speaker A: I love that. Anytime I see that, it makes me smile. I absolutely love that. Clap back.

Speaker C: People do like to say that. Yeah, go ahead, Gail.

Speaker B: I also like, sir, this is a

Speaker A: Wendy's Yeah, I've seen that one. I have. Uh, that's really good.

Speaker C: I just really like, it's like so popular on, like, traditional social media. It's not as much. See, this is, this is what's interesting about LinkedIn. It is still a business platform, right? So, like, it is.

Speaker A: But there's such a blurred line between personal and professional now. There is now, LinkedIn reflects that.

Speaker C: But if you do something super, super rude or maybe too political or lots of bad word, whatever, right? Like, yeah, you're putting it somewhere that is technically considered a workplace. And your place of business, your work could absolutely, like, fire your. You know what or something. Right? You can get in big trouble for stuff like that.

Speaker A: You can say ass. This isn't.

Speaker C: I. Well, you know, fire ass. Right.

Speaker B: I call someone. I called someone a big tool on LinkedIn.

Speaker C: On LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Is that bad?

Speaker C: See, but you work for.

Speaker A: Did someone get mad at you for that? Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I work for myself, so.

Speaker C: Right, right, right. But if you work at a company, which so many. Most people still do these days, right? Like, you still have to kind of like. I mean, one guy went off on a friend of mine. He was so It's. I. It's not even. I don't even need bad words. He was just a very. He was being so unkind, you know, And I rarely will involve myself in keyboard warrior conversations, although Nora and I will sometimes engage just for funsies.

Speaker A: Um, we do it in a really like, slide in. Say something sort of like snotty, slide out. Like you do.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker C: But we only. We do it on things that we're really. That we would. What we talk about. Anyways, that's the thing. So it's. Right. Anyways, point is, is I was like, um, I. Even if this girl wasn't my friend, and I saw that, I'm just like, abs, this is not acceptable. You're just being absolutely unkind. And I, you know, I always try to come in with like, really just good logic and just kind of getting someone to maybe take a step back to be like, oops, I'm getting a little nuts here. And 1% of the time that'll actually work. Most of the time people just want to be idiots. But he really was ready. He just every. And everyone was telling him, like, what is your problem? Like, you're an. You're this, you're that. And he just wanted to do it. But this guy is a, uh, some kind of director of either sales ops or some. Something at a company where I was like, you know what? And I went and I connected with their CEO and I said, I need you to, uh. Because I haven't told the guy. I said something about like, yikes. Like, oh, I. And I tagged the company and I said, yikes. You guys gotta, you know, gotta ruffle your boy. Yeah. And I did. I went to the CEO. I'm like, hey, you should. Mike, I. I think you should just understand that you are employing a person who has goals of tearing other people down and in public. So.

Speaker A: And I think you should be aware of that. I think that unprofessional. That you have to, like, the unprofessional behavior that you have to worry about versus, like, who cares if you're sharing your dinner? Like, that doesn't hurt anyone. That's not unprofessional. Yeah, I feel like that's what gets attacked more.

Speaker C: But that's the one part was like, did where it's like, you. He could have done that on Instagram or whatever.

Speaker A: X.

Speaker C: Whatever you call it, any of that stuff. And technically it's like, that's not work.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: As long as.

Speaker A: But he's not representing his. His role in his company.

Speaker C: Right. He could have done that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: But you can't do that, you know, when. You can, but you. And I was like, you're. You're an idiot. And.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and Girl's post was literally about being like, bubbly in her personality as a bdr. And he decided that that was something he wanted. So I was like, of all things, too, to like, go tear a person down on. Um, anyways, so I think it. That that's what does make LinkedIn a little interesting when people want to have opinions. You have. One thing that I have gotten positive feedback on about my content is that it is opinionated. However, it's opinionated in a way that I would hope never hurts someone's feelings. Right. Like, it's unkind. Um, from a human to a human. You might disagree with my opinion from a business standpoint of how I might have gone and approached things or my strategy sessions of something, but never from like a human standpoint. And that's where the people who cross the line on LinkedIn, I'm like, Man, you are asking to get fired or you're just that brave or.

Speaker A: But I think that's the difference between, like, being. I mean, I think to be an influencer, you have to have a point of view. I think that's why brands want to work with you and would never approach this guy with the different kind of opinions with the unkind opinions.

Speaker C: Yeah, you have.

Speaker A: You have a position. You have a personality. This is how you're building trust with people, by being human being, you know, stating your opinions, stating your position on things.

Speaker C: You're not boring.

Speaker A: You're not. You know, these people who are like, be professional. Don't share personal things. Like, okay, but at a certain point, there's nothing left, and you're just this, like. Like headshot with. With nothing, you know, to show for it. Like, you're just sort of this, I don't know, title. Basically, you're a real, fully formed person. Like, if I didn't know you in real life, I would still feel like I knew you because of how you post. There's plenty of people on LinkedIn that, like, I've gotten to, like, know in air quotes because they have a position, they have an opinion. I want to follow them. I want to know what they think. I. You, uh, know. And then eventually, if it came to it, I would want to know what they endorse. I might buy what they're endorsing.

Speaker C: Yeah. Because I'll go, okay, well, if you feel confident enough to endorse it, then.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: That gives me enough. Right. You've earned my trust.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: You've got some trust in the brand, which. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm curious about what's, like, YouTube too. Like, I'll be quite honest. Like, I'm not. I wasn't even as aware that it's so active still for monetize, like, people monetizing and really having all this stuff happen. Because I don't. I personally don't consume YouTube in that way. Um, my kids sure do. Uh, right. Which. Oh, by the way, you'll have a future client, Gil. Um, because Isaiah told me this is my youngest. He said six. He wants to get a lot of subscribers.

Speaker B: Oh, no.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Well, I went.

Speaker A: You already know you have a future client in my house, too.

Speaker B: Oh, gosh. Yeah.

Speaker A: Buckle up for that.

Speaker C: No, no, no, I wouldn't.

Speaker A: Wait, no, no, no. We're talking in, like, 10 years, 15 years.

Speaker C: But I would never.

Speaker A: I would never let you represent YouTube.

Speaker B: M is still. YouTube is the number one streaming platform in the world. To me, it's the gold standard of monetization because of their AdSense program. So all those. All those ads that are running in during the video. Yeah, the YouTube shares revenue with the creators. It's a lot worse on platforms like Instagram. Um, LinkedIn doesn't share any ad revenue with its most popular creators.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You know, and that's, I don't know

Speaker A: if that's ever change. Do you think as LinkedIn evolves into a more influencer, friendly platform, LinkedIn will be forced to, I don't know, adjust? Okay. I don't know. We'll wait.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm sort of skeptical. I mean, they're definitely pushing people towards video on LinkedIn.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: And from there they might launch advertisements before or after those little videos. So it's possible there would be a revenue sharing program, but I'm not counting on it anytime soon.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And you know, YouTube, so sponsored posts

Speaker A: are kind of the way.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The way to go with LinkedIn. Okay, interesting. Good to know.

Speaker B: Yeah. Whereas, whereas YouTube, you get AdSense, you get Brand partnerships, you can have affiliate links in the description for whatever you want. Um, there's, there's, there's channel memberships, there's super. Thanks. And you know, there's just like 10 different ways you can monetize on, on, um, YouTube as opposed to LinkedIn, which is just. Right now it's just brand partnerships.

Speaker C: Right. Yeah, that's honestly what I was curious. Cause you, I do hear that all the time they're like, TikTok and YouTube is where you get the money. Right.

Speaker B: And I'm like, even TikTok, the, the, the revenue sharing is, is not amazing.

Speaker C: I just.

Speaker A: So why does everyone talk about TikTok? Is it that, like, smaller creators can earn? Um, is there a lower threshold for, for monetization or something on TikTok, I

Speaker B: mean, the creative, the creativity program. I think, you know, people like TikTok because it's a discovery platform and you can be, you can be nobody and build a. Because of the, uh, how good the algorithm is, you can follow and build a community. And that's why people like TikTok.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Instagram, um, a little bit harder to grow on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Actually, someone had said to me, so I'd, I'd be curious if this was true or not, Gail, that Instagram, you can actually make quite a bit more money than TikTok. As a influencer creator, I'm not as

Speaker B: up to speed on, like, I'm not as speed up to speed on like the real bonuses and things like that.

Speaker A: Oh yeah.

Speaker B: But I haven't seen, I haven't really seen brands value one versus the other,

Speaker A: meaning they will pay more for like a TikTok video than an Instagram video or vice versa.

Speaker B: Really seen that? Mm, I haven't really seen that. Although I would, I would venture to guess, I would venture to Guess they might value Instagram a little bit more because you can then like share to your Instagram story with a link sticker and that link sticker with has a, you know, a UTM that leads to a point of purchase.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I, I would venture to guess that Instagram is probably better at conversions than TikTok.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: But by and large I haven't seen like a huge difference in terms of rate.

Speaker A: Got it.

Speaker B: That's just me though, and my seven clients.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. But still that's a decent sample. Yeah. Well the fact that I think the, the thing that, to look at is if you're not seeing brands gravitate towards one or the other or like pay more for one or the other, I think that kind of says it right there that it's probably just dependent, like situational.

Speaker A: One last quick question before we wrap up. How is AI factoring into all of this? How do you think that it's going to affect. How is it currently and how do you think it will change the experience of being a creator and the creator economy overall?

Speaker B: Oh geez. AI. Well, that's not a quick question. I would say it's. AI is becoming a really important kind of co pilot to uh, existing content creators as far as like coming up with ideas or generating like thumbnails or storyboards or uh, generating B roll with AI, you know, using prompting. Yeah, but then there's a whole other industry of like people trying to replace creators with AI trained influencers. You know, like we can just.

Speaker A: And that's just not, and that's not, not going well.

Speaker B: Well, I mean, look, I think, I think the videos are going to be really, they are some of them really convincing. Uh, it's just like, you know, there's no substitute for, I hate to say it.

Speaker C: Awesome.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you. Thank you ladies. Um, I don't think there's a substitute for a creator putting something in their own words, delivering it in the way that only they can and, and presenting it and such. You know, if you just have this like really cheap, cheapo. I think the company is called like icon.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, this, this like we have just a bunch of synthetic influencers that you can just put words into. I just don't see them being as effective. Yeah, that's me. I could be changing my tune in a year. That's how fast the technology is evolving.

Speaker C: Well, right.

Speaker A: I mean it's hard, it's hard to predict what it's going to look like in a year or five years because we don't know what it's capable of yet.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Speaker B: Scary. Very Skynet.

Speaker A: A little bit, yeah. Well, on that note, now that we've sufficiently terrified.

Speaker C: Scared the crap out of everybody.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right. Um, thank you so much for joining us, Gil. Before we end, um, can you share where people can find you online?

Speaker B: Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Twitter and Instagram with the handle Gilly G I L L Y

Speaker A: Quick and quick and simple.

Speaker B: People are constantly trying to buy warhack.

Speaker C: I. Oh.

Speaker A: So what's the best offer you've ever gotten for either of those handles?

Speaker B: Like, $5? I mean, yeah, people think they can give me, like, 50 bucks, you know, and I'm like, I'll take one bitcoin, you know, just. Just to mess with them.

Speaker A: I really thought you were going to say $1 billion. And I was like, I mean, maybe that's a bit of an overcorrection, but you may as well just ask.

Speaker B: I'll take a bitcoin.

Speaker A: Sky's the limit. All right, fair enough. All right, well, if anyone would like to.

Speaker C: If you would like to buy Gilly a bitcoin or.

Speaker A: Buy Gilly. Yeah. Uh, thank you so much.

Speaker B: This was so fun.

Speaker A: Yeah, thanks for being here. This was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it and hopefully everyone did as well. Great. All right, thank you, everyone, for listening. If you liked this episode, um, please give us a five star rating on whatever platform you're listening on. Um, and we'll see you next time.

Speaker C: Cheers. Sam.