GP 58: Passionate Delivery of Regeneration: with Gerry Hughes of Gerry Hughes Consulting

Hello and welcome to the Grow Places Podcast, where we explore the virtuous circle of people, growth, and place. Brought to you by Grow Places and hosted by our founder, Tom Larson. Jerry, thank you very much for joining me today on the Grow Places Podcast. Pleasure to be here.

Yeah, it's a privilege to have you on. How's things? Things are very good. Good.

Enjoying life? Yeah. You were just saying to me off mic, you're you're pretty busy, so it would be great to start with what you're up to now, really. Yeah, sure.

So about three years ago, I guess I stepped out of the call it the corporate world, where I'd spent most of my professional career to do my own thing as uh Jerry Hughes Consulting. Uh very novel name. But um I guess I felt like I had done my time in the corporate world and wanted to get free of that. Not that there's anything, not there's anything wrong with that, but free of that to do what I wanted to do, sort of this last stage of my career.

So I set my little business up, which will just be me. I have a load of other associates that work in other businesses, but um I wanted to work on things that I wanted to work on that I felt genuinely would make a difference. And that's a bit of a bit of a you know, high bar in some ways, but it's actually you can I, through my experience, do things differently, have an impact. And again, two other things.

Work with people I like working with who share the same values and have some fun doing it. Yeah. So absolutely. So how that how has that manifests itself in my work?

Um, I am doing a number of things, really three fall into three buckets, maybe four actually. Uh firstly, um, I'm leading a couple of very big projects, one in my home city of Belfast, uh, one which is, and that's a regeneration project, which I'll probably come back to in a few moments. Secondly, I'm leading a big nuclear science development project in Bristol Way. Um, so that's so I'm I find myself in that project lead role, which I actually like, coordinating the input of different disciplines and navigating a project through you know the process that's quite involved and complex.

Secondly, um I've got a couple of non-exec director positions. Um one is with a company called Place Capital with David Smith Milne. Um, and we're really that business is focused on delivering housing, particularly affordable housing. I'm also a non-exec director on Maritime Belfast, which again takes me back to my home city, um, which is a charitable foundation responsible for protecting the heritage of the waterfront in Belfast.

Um, and then I'm doing a number of other smaller consultancy assignments, working with partners. And and then the fourth thing is uh when I get the opportunity in time, mentoring the next generation of people, you know, helping them through some of the obstacles, hurdles, issues that they face as they develop their career, and I really like doing that when I find the time. Yeah, yeah, amazing. It's amazing.

And um uh you know, I'd love to go back into sort of how you've got to where you are, but maybe just staying staying here at the moment then. So, you know, w what what do you think, you know, if you're to digest all of that experience down into what you're doing now, you said you want to make a difference. What what what do you really feel like your particular version of making a difference is? That's a good question.

Um delivery. Um and I I mean my my training and my the way I think is very strategic. So I'm a strategic thinker, I tend to look at the big picture, I tend to be able to navigate uh the complex interplay of issues in urban regeneration and urban development quite well because I understand how the various disciplines interrelate. I'm pretty good at that, I think.

And that's how I built my career. But the one thing that I gradually got more engaged with was how do you actually make these projects happen in reality without losing the inherent vision that you have at the start of a project. So delivery in this country is really difficult. It's really difficult often because we make it difficult, candidly.

You know, we have a tremendous amount of bureaucracy and process that is self-generated. A lot of it's necessary, a lot of it's not necessary. So I think what I'm trying to do, certainly in the two projects I'm leaning on, one um the project in Belfast, the regeneration project, and the other the nuclear science project. Um I'm trying to find a way where I can navigate those projects through a process as quickly and as effectively as possible.

So that experience I've had of understanding how the process works, how the various disciplines come together to in a creative way, and then how to navigate through planning, through funding, financing, through public engagement, all the steps you have to take to get a project onto the ground. I think that's where I think I can make a difference. And that's where I'm focusing on delivery. Yeah, yeah, totally.

And um yeah, exactly. And your experience is totally unique that you can doing that. And you've touched on it, it's it's it's multifaceted, isn't it? Any delivery and and um as you say, you know, we we make projects complicated.

They they they are complicated by nature because it's people and places and it's you know everything that goes into life essentially, isn't it? But there's there's a lot we do in this country probably as well to make it make it more complicated. Um so do you have a kind of uh um a method of working through that? Do you think because you in your experience um you do have a a unique perspective really.

You've worked at different levels of sort of, as you say, on the ground delivery project management almost up to policy and strategic land, and and and so do you see there's a there's a sort of method to that? The first uh I don't think there's a method, but there's probably a series of techniques that you would I I tend to deploy. First of all, is understanding what we want to achieve and trying to get everyone on the same page as quickly as possible on that. And then within the team, and invariably it is a team game, isn't it?

Regeneration. Um plotting out the process to get from A to B as as quickly as possible and ensure everyone understands that and try and identify well where those hurdles might arise. And then this and so that's the first thing. The second thing I think then is a combination of challenge and encouragement.

Yeah. A positive encouragement. Challenge do we really need to do that? Do you think that's absolutely necessary?

Can we push back on that? Why are we doing that that way? Um, is it really essential that we do that that way? Because what I find is this, and this is a little bit of a bugbear of mine, is that the bureaucracy is mutually reinforcing.

And what I mean by that is that, you know, there's a process we've got to go through to navigate planning to get the approvals and licenses that we need to do to do development. And their questions come back and there are uh challenges that come back from the public sector invariably. But quite often that triggers a response from of compliance on our side. So the consultant in question will simply, okay, that's okay, and go away and do more work at more cost without challenging.

Is that really necessary? Can we do we have to do that? Can we not do it this way without incurring yet another roll of the dice in terms of work and analysis? I find that that dance happens in every project.

You know, it's and so it's a mutually reinforcing process where the the process of getting planning, we think about getting planning now particularly, just takes longer and longer and longer. So challenge and encouragement that we should be challenging. Yeah, yeah, totally. And um you know, if you if you if you were to look at the real estate development industry, maybe specifically this country, as an outsider and and you were I don't know, you worked in technology or or something like that, you might go, okay, well, you know, this is all too fragmented, we just need to vertically integrate and and uh or we need to do you know um big off-site manufacturing programs, or, you know, and we're there's these kind of um silver bullets maybe that are going to kind of cut through a lot of this.

Now we we know that that's not not the case. You know, this is very, very difficult to do these things. They're multifaceted, as we say. But do you think there are other things that we can we could learn from from other you know, other areas of industry, other places that that you've that you've come across in your career that that you think we could could help oil the wheels a little bit?

I don't know the answer to that directly, but I think maybe I'll ask it slightly differently. I think the one of the issues with our the real estate sector is we've become incredibly siloed. An office agent lets lets offices. You know, a building surveyor does building surveys, uh rating you know, uh a surveyor does rating, a planning consultant gets planning permission.

And it's not like that in the real world. It's a much it's a much more complex interplay of all of those things, and each one of those skill sets has a role to play in creating successful places, which is ultimately what we're about. You know, real estate's about creating successful places, both in the short term, medium term, and long term. You know, people create value.

So you've got to get a create place that actually is attractive to people who want to live there, work there, take leisure there. Those people will generate demand, generate value. That's what we're about, isn't it? It's all about creating value.

And we get it right, you're creating great places at the same time. The two are mutually uh interrelated. Um so what we have lost over over I think the last 20 years in this country is we have we have fewer and fewer people who are really able to think strategically who can join the dots across all of those different elements and coordinate that process. Um and that's you know, if I was to go back into education, or if I was to go back into any any forum where I could actually um encourage a different way of working, would be I would want to try and encourage people who are able to think strategically about the big issues.

Understand, you know, the technical challenges and issues without being deeply um ingrained in them, but stand back and understand how that element interplays with that. So I think real estate has somehow lost maybe it never had it, but in my my career there's fewer and fewer people who are able to think strategically about the big issues. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And I think um that's a public and private thing, isn't it? Totally. Yeah. Totally.

Everything gets broken down into its component element without saying why that how that fits into a bigger picture. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and you may sort of bandage this all up in one thing, but but sort of take ability to take decisions and leadership kind of there's strategic thinking, isn't there? But then there's action that kind of goes with that.

Um and I think often rightly so, you know, things aren't black and white, absolutely. You know, whether it's a policy or whether it's a kind of an outcome or an out uh a metric. And within that you need an element of judgment, don't you? That's partly experience, it's partly strategic thinking, it's partly teamwork.

Yes. But it does require, you know, taking decisions. Um and that's obviously the role that you're occupying as a project director and you know, previously as a CEO, or uh but how how do you see that in in this lens of you know you're wanting to get things delivered? Maybe how how we take decisions, whether individually or collectively, um, to actually deliver some of these things?

Leadership's you know, it's a bit of a a cliche, isn't it? But it's leadership's everything. And the successful cities uh emerging like Manchester, you know, they've had amazing leadership over a long period of time. So Hard Bernstein, sadly no longer with us, but you know, well, imbued a an approach as a leader with his political leaders, you know, about how you actually make change happen.

And that that is carrying forward. Um so you know, to cut through all of those issues, whether you're in the private sector or whether you're working in the public sector, or whether you're working on a project that's a combination of both, which projects tend invariably will be, the key thing I I think one of the key things is having a leadership that actually has the ability to um get people working together, keep their eye on the on the goal or the vision, enable people to make their own decisions.

You know, leadership's not about making every decision, as we know. That move is moving the project in the right direction. And I think we have a div we have a lack of leadership in many instances. Some of our cities, without naming any names, I think we we could do with a more a few more Howard Bernsteins, for example, uh to drive their economies forward.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And uh so maybe staying on this theme then of sort of leadership strategy delivery, and now looking back then over your career, whether it's a project or a place or a a culture working environment, has anything kind of come to mind where you're like you've mentioned Howard Bernstein, but are there any other examples for you over that period of time where you're like, God, you know, this was really rolling here. We kind of we had something really going.

Um there there are two examples. First is first is a company I work with. My very first job as a consultant after I left, uh I did some work at the University of Belfast or Queen's University of Belfast post-graduation. But then I went my first proper job was with a company called Building Sign Partnership.

BDP is it uh they became known. And working with them as an inter multidisciplinary organization um really influenced me in terms of the how those different disciplines can be brought to bear on a project. And they did that really, really well. But the thing that struck with me from the people I was um reporting to at the time, uh Roy Adams was the name you may not know, but he was the he became the chief executive of BDP and he was my boss initially.

Was that role of the ringmaster, the coordinator, the guy, the person who sits at the centre of all of those different inputs and basically calls his author directs and influences. That so that was a that was a very important point for me to see you know the importance of that role. And that that's where I set I set myself out to be, to always be the ringmaster, always be the person who's at the centre of the whole process, and yeah, I successfully achieved that in many instances.

That's the first thing. The second, that was very influential. I think the second thing was uh I mean well, I will go back to Manchester again because it was formative for me and it was what was working with Howard. It's a project that was the the East Manchester Project, East Manchester Regeneration Project, where I, in partnership with Joe Berriget of Urban Strategies in Toronto, we led the regeneration framework for East Manchester, which was the one of the first um urban regeneration companies that was spearheading the regeneration of that whole part of the city.

And and for the first time, genuinely, for the first time, we set about preparing a 360-degree strategy which addressed not just the physical, but thought about the economics, thought about the people, thought about the um the social aspects of what we're trying to achieve, addressed issues like local education, uh uh, et cetera, et cetera, the environment. Um, genuinely a 360-degree urban regeneration framework that stands the test of time, in my view. You know, today the things that Urbanist Flash have delivered, you know, the uh the deliver of this the delivery of the Manchester City um complex, yeah, it's all goes back to that framework and the power of having people working together, um, strong city civic leadership, um, that stuck with me.

You know, and um very proud of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, amazing.

And um, and so so you you know, we we can actually sometimes talk about, can't we, like these whether it's these frameworks, 360 strategies in the abstract. Um, and I know you've talked to me before about, you know, right, people and places, you know, what does it kind of actually mean? Like what do we what are we actually talking about here? Um maybe with that example, can you can you think back?

Because obviously you've been fortunate enough now to see that from kind of on the drawing board through concept to actually being delivered, people living there, and you've got that sort of feedback loop, however you want to describe that. Um what does it actually mean then, do you think, for people in place in this context, what we're actually talking about? It's not perfect, Newsmaster. You know, I and we could another time talk about where it's not quite worked, and I think learning those lessons is important.

But your question, that's placing people, it's a it's an it's an interrelationship. People make places, places make people. Um and and fine, just a sidebar. When I became the chief executive of GVA, this was at the heart of my philosophy, you know.

And um we created a purpose, not to create a purpose, we evolved a purpose with a partnership that was focused on people in place. And in fact, we developed a I don't like the phrase strap line, but we we crystallized into a term um our places build people. It was just, you know, and it was it was essentially an attempt to corral, if that's the right word, the entire s ponopoly of real estate services under a single purpose. Um and if you can get that right, you know, that's that's that's powerful, you know.

Um I we I think we were the first, you know, all all the real estate advisory firms now talk about people in place, don't they? But I think we were the first, I candidly think we were the first to really step step into that. It's not something the real estate advisory world did. Um in New East Manchester, to use that example, you have seen how the regeneration effect where you have really successful places which are if you go to the northern quarter now, which is on the edge of the city centre, and the western edge of New East Manchester, if you go to Ancoats, you can see the vitality that exists by people living there occupying those very important historical buildings, and there's always a tension between history and or preservation and new build, as we know.

I think the one thing that they've got really done really well there is they've got that balance correct, new building keeping. And so the vitality is there. People have a sense of ownership of the place, they feel safe, secure. Um they're living there, there's a new school there that Urban Splash delivered on the canal side.

Um, you know, and it's taking I think what they need to do in these master is start to take that and gradually move it eastwards from the city centre, and that's the next steps, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So would you say that that's kind of a really good example of where you have genuinely kind of impacted on on the lives of the people people there? And may maybe maybe sort of bringing that forward to what you're doing with with Place Capital Group then, because that's you know, it's housing, isn't it?

It's about it's about the everyday, it's about kind of, you know, affordable housing, which is really challenging in well, it's really challenging to deliver, frankly, on on multiple levels. Maybe you could sort of touch on that and how you think you're how you think you're navigating through that. It's such a big topic and a big challenge for in fact most European cities and uh have this issue. Uh but the UK it's a phenomenal phenomenal challenge.

I think and we're seeing this with I'm seeing this first hand with the work that we're doing at Place Capital, how challenging it is to get development going, getting and and we're set up. We're set up to deliver houses. That's what we want to do. That's you know, if we're not delivering houses, we you know we don't have a business.

And we're I thought about this before I came to this meeting actually. Um there's been so much re so much work done on how do we unlock more housing. And um I think there are a number of things that I think need to be done. And I I'm gonna start with my own discipline, the planning system.

I think really there's been myriad of reports about how we improve the planning system. The planning system is fundamentally a problem. It's not it's not about ticking around with the edges and making a few changes here. We've got a whole industry, public and private, set up by an an art relatively artificial construct that we have to navigate.

There's a whole industry around planning. I would be an advocate for a European approach, which is more sonal approach, where there's deemed permission once you've got a zone appl applied and you cut through a lot of the don't get me wrong, you've got to deal with the environmental and sustainability issues and other engineering-related issues. But the principle of use and planning, if you can if you can actually I would really start again. I know that's a big challenge to to any government, but our system is fundamentally a problem.

Um and creates adds months, years to process. Segway. My nuclear science project in in Stroud, uh just north of Bristol, is the redevelopment of a the the former research and development complex of the Magnox Reactor Programme. So the use is established.

We're bringing up to the 21st century uh science and technology park focus on nuclear and clean energy. Okay, we're trebling the size of the development. We we it it will have taken us at least 18 months to get plan permission, the uses are the same, and it will have cost us 1.5 million to get plan permission.

I mean, that's just crazy. Totally crazy. I'm just that example. So the first thing is planning has to be has to be resolved.

Second, we have to take away the delivery of social housing from you know the private sector, largely. I know Place Capital is a private sector company and we'll be delivering social and affordable housing as part of our programme. But we've got to liberate uh the public sector to deliver social housing. You know, there are many good examples of where this is done elsewhere in Europe, but that was the biggest mistake we've ever made was actually take cut back council housing.

We need to have more public sector housing for people here who are in need. Thirdly, uh we need to get uh more small builders into the market. And if you remove if you make planning easier, cut that cost out, um, you will see more people come into the market, developer. But fourthly, you've got to get public land into play more quickly.

We're seeing that at uh place capital, how difficult it is to get a public sector site into play, even when you own the site next door, you have to go through a whole process of getting approval, maybe you can go through procurement, uh, just to find best value. I'm not saying those things are important, but we've got to streamline that process. Um and I think that's it. You know, there's those those four or five things that would make a fundamental difference.

It's not easy, but unless we tackle it at that level, nothing's gonna change. Yeah, no, um, you know, obviously that Jerry, there's so many things, so many different ways I could take this conversation, talk to you about because there's you know, you're one breath for talking about you know the work you're doing with nuclear power plants and the other is uh affordable housing, and that's what makes your experience in this conversation like so, so interesting. Um just sticking on the housing point for for a second, um you know, where do you where do you think you you've mentioned planning, which is is part of it and some of some of the other factors there.

But what what else can can actually be done by operators within the system? Let's call it that. So, you know, the lights of Grow Places, the lights of Place Capital Group who are operating within a system. You know, the system itself probably, as you've mentioned, needs to change.

But but are there any actual practical steps that businesses can take, do you think, um within the within the system to to actually operate at the moment? Because as you say, if if there's no homes being built, then you know no one's winning, really, are they? Um we we have you know we we uh we have a we have a pipeline at Place Capital of at of at least fifty five thousand homes in our pipeline, in terms of opportunities, sites, whatever. Um and this is a conversation you should have with David.

You should really have David on it. Yeah, I would like to have David on it again. I should do it. Um I actually don't I don't I actually know a a practical response to that.

You know, we I've talked about the big things that need to happen. David's more day-to-day on on on getting unlocking projects, and he's deeply frustrated by the process, as he'll tell you if you get him on here. Um I think you know, I think we work at getting the starting point is getting control of sites and c and and opportunity. And you know, I think the public sector has got a big role to play in that and and forming relationships with uh local local government or local authorities in a way that allows them to effectively bring sites into play.

You know, even to deliver against our massive homelessness challenge, attempt to accommodation issues we're all all every city's city is grappling with. You know, we would work with the any local authority who have sites, who have the ability to help solve that problem. We would work with them to bring those sites into play to deliver short-term attemptary accommodation to meet this challenge. And the issue is just getting the leadership at the local authorities in many instances to see there's a nervousness about engaging with the private sector without going through some sort of really compositive process.

So I I haven't answered your question because I don't actually know, but I think getting control of sites allows us to then we can navigate the planning process once we have control of the sites. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I think you kind of have, and I'd like to get David on as well.

But as you say, in in that answer, it shows how difficult it is, really, doesn't it, as well? Because as a as a as any entity within the supply chain, it's incredibly difficult, I think, at the moment, um, to to be bringing forward houses, which is you know what we need a huge amount of and and the right type of housing as well. So Well it makes. You know, and and my you know, I wanted to maybe talk about my project in Belfast, which is the is right in the city centre, which is a for the first time, Belfast as a city is going through you know the start of our Renaissance.

It's an exciting time to go back to that city again because it's you know the troubles we've had and you know for a number of other economic reasons, it's you know, it hasn't gone through the massive uh change that maybe some other UK cities have. Um so it's at the start of a process, you can see the green shoots of uh something happening, and so it makes it an exciting time. The project is it was previously known as Trebecca, so it's it's no longer known as Trebeka. Um it's right in the city centre.

Um, you know, it's a few hundred metres from the city hall. Um and uh with uh client Castlebrook, who owned the entire block, shall we say, we will deliver about a thousand new homes and about a hundred thousand square foot of active ground floor use. And it's genuine exciting to be working, and and that will be a that will be a a mix of residential accommodation. It will be, you know, um some flex living or co-living in there, uh uh be built to rent, outright sale, social uh co-ownership.

So the intention is to create a neighborhood, really, for the first time right in the city centre. Genuinely, uh that's not happened before. So we're breaking new ground there. Um, but the approach we're taking is to start with put people first.

Now think about think about what people want in this part of the city. Start with the streetscape, the public spaces, the ground plain, the architecture will come later. Um, we have got, I think it's five listed buildings in the block, and we're in two conservation areas. So you can imagine the challenge we have between new build and preservation.

Um so we're navigating that through that. Um, we've brought a local team together. Um, we brought Oliver Schulze from Schulze Grasshoff in from Copenhagen, so that brings that sort of uh Copenhagen influence to focus on the master planning and get the streetscape right. Um, we are really excited about about that project breaking new ground in in Belfast and starting helping sort of catapult the renaissance forward in that city.

Um the issues are myriad, you know, dealing with conservation and preservation, as you might imagine. Uh political leadership, the political landscape is very complex in Belfast. Um, but we are our approach is to work in partnership as much as we can, even though we control the land, we see delivery being a partnership. We have to work together to make this this happen.

So it's an exciting project to be involved with. And I think um, you know, it it it is it's almost like a test case for some of the things we've talked about. You know, how do you make places that really will stand the test of time, that will be successful, that will be attracted to people, um, that will be part of a wider regeneration process for the city s for the city of Belfast. Yeah, yeah, amazing.

And and what what does it mean to you personally, this project, you know, your city and um having an influence on it in that way? Yeah, a lot. That's where I started my career. I mean, I went to University in Belfast.

Um I uh my f one of my my very first ever project was um working with BDP on the uh master plan for the the Lagenside Development Corporation. So you know, it gives away my age, I guess, if we if you look that up. But that was my first project. Now back in the city working on a major regeneration project right in the city centre, and also being on the board of Marathon Belfast.

So yeah, it's it's I'm very fortunate to be able to go back and do a project or two major projects in my home city. Yeah, yeah. And and what do you think of the city now compared to you know when you were when you were growing up, you know, because I think often um we have like a recency bias, however you want to put it, about about about the state of places today and life today, and and actually when you you think back to you know where things have kind of come from to, it can be a much more kind of optimistic, positive story.

So do you feel like um obviously Belfast is a is a particular example of that as a city, you know. How how do you feel about it as a place now? What does it feel like to be there, and how how do you feel like that's kind of evolved over time, really? I think it's isn't it been an amazing journey as a city?

Uh it's unique as a city, it's politically unique, and we've got to bear that in mind. It's also unique in terms of location as a bit of an outlier in the UK, and you know, it's a little bit schizophrenic. You know, is it part of Britain? Is it part of Ireland?

You know, and you've got all of that going on. But as a city, it's an amazing city. You know, it's got such a deep history, it's got the people are amazing, um, they've got a phenomenally strong work ethic, very straightforward, great sense of fan as as a as a city. Um and since I went to university there, the change has been profound, but still you can see how much has to happen.

You know, uh it obviously peace has come. Um the you know, the waterfront is finding a new life, you know, as industry moves back, uh shipbuilding moves further away, still happens in the city. Um freeing up much of the waterfront for development. Some development has happened on the east side of the of the river.

There's opportunity for a lot more. Uh, you can see the the renaissance in the city centre. We're on the cusp of, as I've just said, people coming to live in the city centre, which would have been unheard of. You know, it's just unheard of.

You wouldn't have contemplated the fact that people would be living thinking about living in apartments in the city centre, no car, we'll have no car parking on our scheme. That would have been unheard of. Um, so that's that journey has been phenomenal. And um I think it finds itself.

The final thing I'll say on this, and you can tell I'm quite passionate about this. Uh the whole Brexit um issue has created a phenomenal opportunity for Belfast because it's got a foot in both camps, effectively. Part of the UK, and it's also, you know, still in some way has a foot in the European Union. Um, and if it can actually harness that, you know, that juxta placement, it it can be very powerful economically, and I can see that starting to happen.

Yeah, yeah. And also a very strong university at Queen's University of Belfast, which is important, and the University of Ulster, who's now moved to campus into the city centre. Yeah, amazing. And um and you've you've touched on there sort of all of the various sort of factors that play into a success of a place that beyond beyond financial, aren't they?

You know, there's a there's a huge amount that i in all of that, which is is nothing really to do with with with the financial aspect of the place. But that but that sort of underlying sense of viability is is super important, isn't it? And I can imagine Belfast, it's it's been front and centre over the past few decades. And in the UK, we've touched on housing, you know, it's it's it's it's ever present now, isn't it?

About how do we actually go back to your point about delivery, this viability point. So maybe like your role, I'm I'm thinking particularly maybe of your time at GVA, you know, when you were advising numerous clients, strategic land all the way through to public and private partnerships. What what do you think we could do around around viability to to move projects forwards to make things happen that aren't necessarily systems change but are kind of, you know things things that we can do sort of day-to-day for anyone listening who's like, okay, how do I kind of move this forward?

And share risk across public and private more. Um you know, the the type of projects we're talking about, which are uh city centre or uh city regeneration projects, invariably require the public and the private working together in some form. It can be very formalized in terms of a joint venture structure, it can be less formal in terms of um a more informal partnership, and various there's a whole myriad of different forms of partnership. But but and each and and you have to find the the the right model for the particular set of circumstances.

But it's all it's all about the two working together and sharing risk, uh, in my view, to address the issue of viability. All our northern cities, particularly northern cities, and even London now, have a have viability challenges for a number of reasons, um, as costs have gone up and sort of values have stagnated, as we know. Um, so working in partnership to navigate those and mitigate those risks is really, really important. Um and the two the two components, understanding where each is coming from, you know, this there's an inherent mistrust of the private sector and the public sector side, and as we've got a cliche that it just does exist politically.

Uh and equally there's a on the private sector side is a there's this view that the public sector is full of bureaucracy and that's you know a pain on the back side. And how do we how do we circumvent that rather than how you how do we get alongside and make that more easy? So I think the two working together, finding ways of working together. And how does that work in my head?

You know, I think shared vision, you know, I can't emphasize enough getting the shared and but I don't mean the you know the the high-level thing. It's more about well, okay, what does that vision mean in reality? And we're all bought into that. You know, the the objectives that that really make that vision um achievable.

And then working out, well, I'm thinking from the public sector point of view, well, who is the best partner? Because not all part, all not all private sector partners are equal. So there is horses for courses. You know, you know, uh, I've seen I have seen procurement processes where at the final two you've ended up with one, an apple and one a pear, and you go, there's something not quite right about that, really.

You know, those you should you should end up with a partner or two partners if you're if it's a pure who are equally capable of the similar approach to the to dealing with this particular opportunity. So finding the right partner, um I think also um just I think flexibility is the other word I'd use uh in terms of working together. If you are creating some sort of structure to uh tackle delivery, enable delivery, tackle risk, circumstances change. You know, if the if the if the partnership is wound too tight in whatever way that can't adjust to the changing circumstances.

Some of these projects are 10 plus years, then it's gonna fail at some point. There's gonna be it's gonna that tension is gonna break it. And I've seen that example that happen where it's been legally too tightly wound up that you can't actually flex. Um, and so that ability to adapt and change.

Um, and then finally, just it's where I started this conversation. You have to have someone in the driving seat or in the in the ringmaster role who actually can navigate through those issues. You know, they can can say, well, okay, they build confidence. Actually, that's nothing.

You can build confidence that this will be and take that longer-term perspective, navigate the short term, and lead the process rather than react to, rather than just react to, or lead from a point of view of understanding what the obstacles are likely to be and finding ways over them and on to the next stage. So that brings it back to where I started, I guess. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I and I think um, you know, just to just maybe to wrap up then what has been a fascinating and really, really broad ranging conversation.

What in that mindset then, what makes you do you feel optimistic about where we where we are, where we're going, what we're what we're trying to do within the planning regeneration space, however you want to describe it? You've always I mean you've always got to be I mean I I you've always got to be optimistic, don't you? Um you know, there are times you go, oh God, no, but but I think, yeah, I mean I y I love working with people and I love I love working with different disciplines and you get if you can if you can capture the energy you see, you know, day-to-day in meetings or people trying to do the right thing and harness that and find a way of navigating the issues that we're facing.

Yes, I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic. I think I think the fact that there's government you know we're devolving more power to the cities is a good thing. That makes me optimistic that because the cities are the drivers of our economy, right?

So let the cities work out and let the cities drive it forward. If we can find the leadership to take that responsibility and make that make the change happen that's necessary. Um, that gives me sense for optimism. Um, I think we need, I would love us to be able to deliver infrastructure much more quickly and more effectively.

It's deeply frustrating the way we we go about delivering infrastructure. Um, because infrastructure is it's to me is that the it's the lifeblood of economic growth. You know, if you if you want to deliver more housing more quickly, I should have said this, get the infrastructure right. Yeah, if you if you want, you know, if you want people to come and live somewhere and to make it more viable, make sure it's well connected into the rest of the network.

So infrastructure is critical, but we are not good at delivering infrastructure in this country. So we have to find a way of making that make that better. So yeah, overall, yeah, I'm optimistic because um if you look back over time, you know, there's always been times when there's a reason to be pessimistic, but we always work out, don't we? And we get there.

It's just take this time, I think it's taking a bit longer, isn't it? Jerry, thank you very much for your time today. I'm sure I've enjoyed it. It's been a fascinating conversation, far ranging and really, really insightful.

And uh thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Grow Places podcast. For more information, visit growplaces.

com and follow us at We Grow Places across all social channels. See you next time.