Rob Bell | The Heretic Creator

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the grounds of origins podcast, where I connect you to outstanding humans and sustainable ideas. I'm your host, Scott Martin. Oh, my gosh. I just had one of the best interviews with the one and only Rob Bell. Um, he's the author of where you parked your spaceship, which is, uh, his most recent book. He's, ah, um, he's got a great documentary called the heretic. Um, you know, you can read the show notes. The guy has got an incredible background. Uh, this was one of the most interesting conversations about quantum physics, who we are, the meaning of life and spiritual business. Like, honestly, uh, um, he is such an incredible storyteller. And without further ado, let's paddle in. All right, let's paddle in. The one and only Rob Bell. Welcome, buddy. Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Let's paddle in. That is a strong start.

Speaker A: That. That actually is my, uh. Let's paddle in is my. My. It is. Let's paddle in.

Speaker B: Fantastic.

Speaker A: It's my call to action, you know, and from a marketing standpoint, I actually call it three of them. So the first one is, um, paddle out. It's like a call to action. Go and do something. Um, go and chase your wave. The second is paddle in. That's committing to your. Your product project, your idea, your. Your thought. That's like the. Take the action that you need and then paddle inward, which is do the work on yourself. Those are kind of like the three things I kind of play around with a little bit. All right, so let's paddle into little hearing a little about you. So a lot of the people that are on my show, they probably have never heard of Rob Bell, believe it or not, even though you're world renowned. Um, a lot of. A lot of my audience is in, you know, they're in marketing, strategy, branding, business. Um, I've got a kind of growing audience in sort of the wellness and, uh, uh, that kind of industry a little bit. But if you could give everyone just a little bit of a background, then we'll jump into some conversation. I'd like them to hear a little bit about your journey of being a heretic and now doing what you're doing. So if you can give us, like, the world's Cole's notes.

Speaker B: That is funny. That is really funny. You summarized it so three beats on that. That's funny. Uh, well, I write novels and I write plays and I do paintings and, uh, that sort of thing. I started out in a band and I was the lead singer. Like, back when the word alternative meant something red Hot Chili Peppers, Midnight Oil, Violent Femmes. Like that sort of was how I got my start. And uh, I was always fascinated with the big questions. What are we doing here? What is this experience? What does it mean to be a person? Who is this I that I insist is here having an experience? So, um, yeah, I went and studied like spirituality and theology and then I was a pastor for a while and I uh, wrote books and then I started touring. Like a band would tour like doing punk rock clubs and theaters and I do like one man shows on like art and quantum physics. And yeah, then I had a TV show for a while. So it's been like a long, how would I say it? It's like following something that sometimes you can name it and sometimes you can't. You just know when you're in it. You just know when you're on it. Yeah. So, um, in some senses, like I assume for many of your listeners, I have no idea what I'm doing in other sense. Yeah, we know exactly what we're doing. We're following, following these couple of things right now, but generally it's always involved making things. Making things.

Speaker A: Do you consider yourself an artist at heart or are you like a seeker or both?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's probably that. Yeah, yeah. Art. Art is how I see it. Mhm. Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, if I look at your Instagram, what's really interesting and is that I share with you is that the integration of art into my life. Like I know my book, I've use sketches, I've got the, you know, one of the largest communities in the world around surf art, you know, and I just love it. And I, you know, I kind of, you can see in the background there, same thing. And I look at your social posts, I love how you've integrated in your new book. If you want to just tell us a little bit about that. And you're doing these cool readings in social media and you. And you're kind of like, I was always wondering like, is that your art? And are you like, what made you think of doing that? Because it's like, seems so cool, like pardon me, dropping F bombs. But that's. Welcome to my show, you know.

Speaker B: Of course. Yeah. The new book is called where'd you park your spaceship? It's a 545 page story about this guy named Heane grew bears and he grows up on the planet Lunle and he eventually ends up on this planet Furtis. And he's gone through all sorts of tragedy and his job is essentially flying around the galaxy and he ends up on this one particular planet because of his work. Um, but he gets pulled into these people. He's working in a bakery. And, uh, anything more might be a spoiler, but it's book one of a whole series. And then, like, one of the characters in the book writes a play. So I wrote that play, so you can also get the play. And then one of the characters has, like, a. He always greets people a particular way so you can buy the M mug that has the greeting on it. And then another of the characters, like, there's like a whole world within a world within a world, and it just has sort of concentric circles and goes outward from there.

Speaker A: You are like, conception. You know, it's like you have these layers of everything you do. And you just described it perfectly right there, which is one of the things from a marketing business. And my shared perspective is I believe what I'm hearing from you, when I see from you, when I hear these layers, is it's about meaning and intention. Even if you didn't intend to do it, you just kind of, like, went with it, and it creates this beautiful. Like, I saw you just do a recent post of, like, you got a bag? I love. Um, I think is what it was. I can't remember.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, the I love Dill Tud bag. Yeah. There's a character in the book that. I just love this character so much. And what's interesting when the book came out is how many people were like, oh, my God, I love Dale Tud. And so now there's like, a whole line of stuff you can get that just says, I love Dild, which is such inside baseball. Such a. It's such an inside joke of an inside joke of an inside joke. To me, in some ways, like, blessed is the one who's in on the joke. Like, absurdity. Absurdity. Uh, if you're going to deal with the heaviness of life, the pain, the sorrow, the ache. If you think about the geopolitical stew that we're living in, and we're going to see this more and more, you have to not only make peace with the absurdity of it, but actually embrace it if you're going to be serious. I was doing an event a number of years ago with the Dalai Lama and Bishop Tutu, and so they were going to put us on almost a stage, and then anybody could ask any question they wanted, which I thought I was like. They were like, we would like you to be there because I'd like to see what would happen if all of you were just sitting there taking questions, I was like, I'd like to see what happened. Um, but what was so fascinating is right before the event started, I was standing there, and they each came in from different doors, and they walked up to each other, and they're longtime friends, but they met each other, like, right in front of me, and they hugged each other. Then they started tickling each other and giggling, and I was like, wait, the Dalai Lama is like, a goofball. Wait, what? And you think about him being exiled from his home. You think about Bishop Tutu and truth and reconciliation in sub Saharan Africa, where this person took a machete and slaughtered this person's family. And now they're gonna meet in a public setting and forgive. Um, you think? I had assumed these guys are gonna have the weight of the world, but instead, there was this lightness and play. Like, you know, from surfing, like, a wave. Just try to explain a wave. Try to put surfing in language. Like traveling across the surface of the Earth on an orbital pattern of energy. It's like, the best ever. And yet you describe it. It sounds ridiculous, except for you say

Speaker A: the word stoke and it's. The only surfer knows what that really, truly means.

Speaker B: Yeah. And even that is, like a word for an unnameable, um, experience.

Speaker A: Totally. You know, when you're talking about the lightness. I, uh, work with Tony Robbins. I'm m. A Tony Robbins partner. Platinum partner. And he brings a lot of the masters, spiritual masters and stuff. And I've worked with Guru Singh, Master Co, and they all say the same thing, that at this level, there's a certain level of lightness, and they're all funny, all of them. Like, Guru saying, hilarious. Master Co is the funniest joker yourself, too. Like, I think that there's something. So why do you think that is that when burdened with, like, knowledge and trying to help people, guide people to things? Why do you think that? Is it unintentional? Natural? Is it the energy? What is it?

Speaker B: Because you come to see that we're on a ball of rock hurtling through space at 67,000 miles an hour, that a lot of what passes for seriousness is the mind's desperate attempt to control things, and that much of the human experience isn't a mind game. It isn't to be dominated or mastered. It's simply to be experienced. Like, when I started out, like, when I was, like, whatever, 25 in the tradition I came from, I went and got a job in a church, because that's what you did. If you were interested in the big questions, and I didn't know anything. So I went to the front desk, the lady running the front desk of the church, and I said, any crisis call, any weird, anything, any. Like, someone's making a scene in the lobby. I want. I want that stuff. So, like, they would literally say on a random Tuesday, hey, there's a guy in prison. No one will visit him. His family have abandoned him. He'd like someone to visit him. So I just go to the prison or I go to the funeral home, because there was nobody to do a funeral for this person. And I. So I just kept having these experiences. I remember seeing a guy in prison, and they took me to this room and they said, um, okay, now you just have to understand this prisoner is quite violent, so, uh, who knows what they'll do? And then the guy starts to leave the room, and I said to the guard, like, wait, wait, wait, where are you going to be? And he's like, oh, I'm going to be outside the room. I'm going to lock you in here with him. And I was like, well, what if he, like, gets really violent? And he's like, oh, I'll be able to watch it on my screen. Oh, so you're. I just remember at an early age, you know, how it is, I'm sure, for you as well. You're young and you're trying to make your way in the world. You're trying to figure out if you're any good in anything. But I just kept having these experiences where if you don't laugh, if you don't laugh at the. At the absurdity of it, you're in trouble.

Speaker A: Well, what I hear there, though, is something really interesting, which is, um, I call it zombie language. You know, when I go get a coffee and someone goes, great, have a good day. And, like, we say these things, and I try to use words that are a little different to change up, like ask a question. And yes, I believe that what you did there is. You were doing a pattern interrupt. It's like outside the. The cultural field to get a different experience. And I was watching Masterclass. I can't remember the guy's name. He writes for New Yorker. Um, you probably know who he is. He's a famous comedian writer. And he. He. He intentionally asks really weird questions. And one of the questions that he asked, he goes, he was in the back of an Uber, and he goes. And he just. He says, it just came to me. Goes, when was the last time you touched, uh, a monkey? And the lady turned around and she goes, why can you smell it on me? And it turned into this New Yorker article which was so crazy, right? Like he went and saw the monkeys and he actually played some monkeys. And he wrote this whole thing in New Yorker about it. And he tells how he actually writes stories on every day. And that's what I think you do, is you find like the snowblower in the broom story. Right. Is I see a correlation there where you see everyday things and you abstract these great storytelling from it. And the way you describe the snowblower with the turbo. I got a totally different story about the leaf blower.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And you're describing the broom. Like how just like methodical and you know, just looking at the broom m. And then there's like the cleaning up the broom from the broom when you're telling both those stories. I had a totally different parallel experience. Mine was thinking about marketing, which was there's like the first thing I learned about writing my first book was writing a book. And. And then I go, what about AI is like the snowblower? It's like now I could just like, literally, like rip out like, you know, an organized way of doing, like it's the new turbo of the. Of the broom. And it's like, are we going to just show up in the room? There's something that we leave behind by not just sweeping the. Doing the things that we need to do. There's something about it that does something for us at the human spirit. And that's what I was when I was reading some of the stuff I get like this. This really cool. My own experience of what you. What your experience is, if that makes sense. It's because you're asking really interesting questions.

Speaker B: Yeah. You think about the art of life is how we transcend our pain. So anytime we don't acknowledge the very real aches and pains of life, there's some sort of denial or repression. It'll come out some other way. But then when you meet somebody who has been through it, been knocked down, and yet they kept going, it does something to you. It does. Does something very powerful. It's funny what you said there about interrupters. That's a great word. Lately, when people, uh, you know, people do like, what do you do? Like you're at a party, what do you do? What do you do? That, like, what do you do? And I've just met so many people who are the way that they are innovating and integrating. It's hard to describe what they do. Cause they're doing something new. So they make. It's kind of like this, but not really. It's kind of like that. Sometimes you. They're duct taping together the best of a number of things they've experienced into something they haven't seen before. It's the loneliness that's built into innovation is you look around wondering, why isn't everybody doing this? Because then it would be called Wednesday. It wouldn't be anything interesting or new. So lately, uh, people ask what I do. I just start telling them in granular detail what I did that day. Like, try this. It's so fun. And weirdly enough, it's true. So it's, it's true. This is what I did. I walked the dog, took my daughter to school and I had a coffee with some organic sourdough toast. Then I worked on a. And what's funny is it instantly connects you in an interesting sort of way as opposed to a title or a job. But you like tell them what you actually. Because you're taking. It's like you're taking the question literally. But there's weirdly something meta about it where you're like, I realize the role in this situation. You do this like a script. Then I say this. You go, oh, that's interesting. Whether it's interesting or not. But the moment you just shift gears, start telling them what you actually did that day. The best.

Speaker A: You probably open up conversations you never have.

Speaker B: Either way, it's the best. Mhm, mhm. What is your new connection?

Speaker A: Do you have one of your, do you have a favorite one that kind of. You pull out of the hat that's like, just. You see where this goes?

Speaker B: Uh, well, there is a good one about asking people what they had for breakfast. That's actually a great one because there's something about the granular. I'm sure for you. Like when you've met people you really admired, you already are aware of their body of work. So the, what they've done is fine, but you already have access to that. But how they did it, like, what kind of car did they show up in? Um, what shirt are they wearing? Do they, um. I just feel found that when I met the people I really admired, what I was most interested in is the granular decisions. Not that I would copy them, but just how do they make their way in their world at the most everyday sort of practical. I remember meeting a, um, musician who I just adore and he's like, yeah, I don't drive. I was wait, you're like 59. He's like, yeah, I just dropped. I just never did the driving thing. Just being like, wait, you can do that? You can just decide, I'm not going to drive. And that guy did just. So enjoyable to know. Oh, so much of what everybody's like, well, this is just what modern life is. There are people who are like, uh, for you, not for me.

Speaker A: Yeah, like just even knowing, like I did an interview with Dave Navarro from the Chili Peppers and Jane's Addiction and you know, um, you know, just him describing, um, his slight disdain for marketing, you know, for the most part, you know, and, and what it represented to him. And you know, for someone who's. He's not like rejecting the. What fame has brought him. It's more, it's like what it brings out in people in his relationship with the rest of the world. He wants people to be more real with him. Does that make sense? Like he just sort of feels that it creates this natural barrier which.

Speaker B: Yeah, he wants to be in it.

Speaker A: He wants to just be like everyone else, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah, mhm, very much so.

Speaker A: So what is Rob really like, this book that you wrote? It's so outside of the body work that you've normally done. What compelled you or what's the rationale behind this, like, help us? Like, that's the biggest question I've always wanted, I wanted to ask you is

Speaker B: like, oh, there's no rationale actually, to be honest with you. I wrote, uh, I wrote my first couple plays and I'd written a novel a number of years ago called, uh, Milliones Cajones, about a B grade motivational speaker who has an emotional breakdown.

Speaker A: Um, oh my God, that's amazing.

Speaker B: He, uh, his name is V. Green and no one can get his spell his name right. And he has this new book out. So the book starts and he's on speaking to her, promoting his new book, Milliones Cojones, which he thinks means million dollar balls. But there's a signing line and there's a man from Mexico in the signing line who's like, I don't think you, I don't think the title means what you think it means in Spanish. And he's like, uh, what do you mean? And he's like. The man says, oh, well, the title, literally the title means like millions of balls. I don't think, I think you're trying to do something. And the guy's like, so our speaker is. So he has a team with him and he's just furious with them. Like, did no one run this by Someone who speaks Spanish. He's got like a milliones, cojones, beach chair and a million. He's got a whole line of merch. And so it like leads to this. He's super burned out. He has no sense of pace or sustainability. And so the whole book traces his meltdown. And so he checks in to this high end treatment center in Arizona where he can. But he, since then he's like had this breakdown and he stopped working out and he's wearing sweatpants every day and he's grown a beard and he's gained weight because he's just, just gone off the rails. And he's like the ultimate, like, pick yourself up by your bootstraps, um, have a plan. So he checks himself into this high end treatment center and the only requirement is he has to go to group therapy one time a day. The first day he goes to group therapy, the facilitator says, okay, just to have a discussion, just to kind of get discussion going. I'm going to play like a short little video clip just to give us something to think about. And then she plays the clip and it's one of his first, the teaching videos. Oh my goodness. So he's sitting there and no one knows it's him. And he ends up getting in these arguments with the other people in the therapy group about what the guy on the video meant, what he said, but

Speaker A: he's trying to constantly be misunderstood.

Speaker B: Well, no one knows that it's him. So there's like a super fan in the group who's like, well, this is what he means. But he ends up getting in an argument with her because he's like, I don't think that guy means that even though he's talking about himself. So anyway, long story, uh, the times I had written stories, plays and novels were like, God, it was so enjoyable, like lit something in me. But then I had like my air quotes, Rob Bell work. So it was like, kind of got to get back to my work. And then a couple years ago actually I fell surfing and had a three wave beat down. And for some reason the pain of that, I uh, could barely move for a couple of days. I was all bruised and I'd sliced open my chest with the fin. And it's that feeling when you know something's ending, like a season or a chapter of life or it's like something's dying and you don't quite know what it is. You just know something's ending and you can't effort your way out of it. You can't bootstrap your way out. You just have to let whatever wants to die, die. And uh, somewhere in there in the middle of the night, this. I had this. Somewhere between fast asleep and wide awake, I had this image of the sky asking the sky, where'd you park your spaceship? And I immediately in the middle of the night was like, oh, that's funny. How does he feel about that question? He does not like that question. Really. Wait, there's a spaceship? What planet are they on? Planet Furtis. What's that guy's name? Diltud. What's that guy's name? He. So I went in the clothes closet and there's like a, you know that pad of like things you're going to do, like don't forget the bread, that kind of thing. I just started jotting down names and planets. And then it kept happening over the next couple of weeks. Pretty soon that pad of paper was like filled with this sprawling multi book story. And I'd written a, uh, couple of books, so I knew the feeling when it was time to start, like, you have enough here, Start writing. And uh, yeah, so I started and something about felt like coming home. It felt like all the work was like a warm up. And I knew if I took that to a publisher in New York, they'd be like, what the. What is space? Are you kidding me? This isn't a Rob Bell book. I pictured myself saying, yeah, but I'm Rob Bell. I was like, that's not gonna work. So right away, like right away it was like, okay, so you're not gonna, you know, that's been your thing, like writing books with these New York publishers. This is gonna be a whole different thing. No one may ever read it. It may sit in your laptop, you may never make any money. You may lose money on this book. And yet I was more alive. The joy was like, was the first thing I'd ever made that I was like, oh my God, I could talk about this and write the next one and talk, uh, like I could do this. Yeah. I was like, you wrote the book

Speaker A: that you wanted to read?

Speaker B: I absolutely. And I would. And it demanded like a rule of life. Like my other books was like a couple hours each morning and then can I go out and play and do other things? But I would drop my daughter off at school and all of a sudden it would be time to pick her up. So it was.

Speaker A: And especially if you travel, it sounds like you had infinite energy for this.

Speaker B: Oh my God. Yeah. And it's the same thing's happening now with book two, um, but here's the trap. When you go around the world literally teaching people about creativity and handing out permission slips, it, um, doesn't mean you don't have to, like, Rob Bell yourself. Like, I would say humbling, but it was way more devastating than that. It was like, yeah, you know nothing about creativity. You know nothing about creation. You don't. Yeah, Rob, you're just. You're just getting started. It was. It's been a really, like, life changing. And then I sent, like, the first draft was 750 pages, and I sent it around to a couple friends, and they were like, yeah, that stuff you've done over the years is. Yeah, it's fine. It's great. I like it. They're like, but this is what it's like to be your friend. This is like you. This is you.

Speaker A: It's got your fingerprints all over it. You weren't intellectually into it. You were, like, expressively giving your DNA in this.

Speaker B: So it was really interesting because it would. I would be writing a scene and there would be all this emotion and tears, or I'd be laughing, or I'd, like, where did that come from? Um, it was some experience even of the subconscious. And to have my friends be like, yeah, this is like, this is you. It's just fascinating. Fascinating how that's how it all works.

Speaker A: Uh, you know, to me, it's like. It sort of feels like when I. I don't know what your sense is, but, like, you leaning into your. Just your. Your. Your creative and your. Your inner purpose. Like, I, you know, my. I call my book my Ground Souls. Like, when people are totally the storm and they're totally committed to the direction they're going, and they're fueled by a purpose or a vision or something. That's what you're doing. You're just kind of like, following this energy. I feel like there's this change going on with the world. With absolute work, there's more desire for. For just do what? Like, scratch your own itch? Like, you know what I mean? Like, don't follow the rules. Like, there is no rules. Like, the rules, you know?

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: It's changing. It's changing so fast right now.

Speaker B: Well, think about the disruption. Think about the disruption that happened during Pandemic Covid. Think of how many people had made some contract where I'm spending the majority of my energy each day doing something that is soul killing. And I'm doing it for X, Y or Z, Money, security, healthcare, whatever, just name it. And then all Of a sudden, they're not able to do it in the same way, and they're okay. Like, kids are good. They were able to keep their place. They were living in. So all of a sudden, wait a second, we're still here.

Speaker A: So it was a global pattern interrupt.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, A massive interrupt of the thing I was doing each day that I thought I, I stopped doing that. And we're still here. So, uh, there is a rewiring of the neural pathways on such a massive, massive. You are. Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Speaker A: I don't know if this is true, but I heard that the Black Plague gave birth to the Renaissance. Isn't that the same thing? Like, you know, it really. It like, opens up like this new thinking. Like, we've just our brain, like the cultural field, the spiritual field of like, of, uh, like, not accepting. Because, like, when people do the same thing over and again, they have the dogma of like, you know, routine and, and, and rules and, and thinking, and they think outside of. This is. It's so interesting. People go on a trip, they come back, they feel like there's like a revitalization. But this, like, on a bigger level, this is what I feel like. I'm, um, seeing it within social media and stuff. Like, yeah, people are kind of like, I saw a stat with Gardner. I'm going to interview the researcher. He said that 50% of social media traffic is going to go down because people are over it. They don't want to consume, they want it. There's more creators now than ever. People wanting to, like, do something different, you know, which is great. You know, I don't like. It feels like there's a spiritual ality almost to coming to business, where there's an intersection of. How do you explain it? You're duct taping spirituality, marketing and business strategy. Like, that's kind of what I do a little bit, right?

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: How do you explain that?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Well, think about what happened with. Okay, so imagine how an idea functions. You have an idea, and to take that idea and bring it into flesh and blood, space and time, that idea, an idea exists within us. It's boundless. It's borderless. It could be anything. There's a level of joy to that and a level of fantasy. Because, like, your book, your book was boundless, wide. But then you start typing and what's happening for you, Scott, is like, oh, okay, so this is what the book's actually going to be. The book has to die. To all the possibilities of what it could be in order to actually be what it's going to be. So there's a death of the fantasy and the bordered boundary list, so that in space and time, it can actually exist. Fernand. I were having lunch, and he makes TV shows. And I was like, what are you doing after lunch? And he said, I'm going to go back and watch the rough cut of the first episode of my new show. I said, what's that like? And he said, death. It's like, why? He's like, because I write the show. I do the casting, we do the scouting location. He's like, I've been carrying this show around for four, five, six, 10 years. But then there's a moment when I'm gonna sit in the editing suite today and I'm gonna see the first footage and I'm gonna see what the show is actually gonna be. We'll tweak it from there. But there's a moment of, like, everything that I hoped the show could be. I'm gonna find out what it's actually gonna be. And so there's.

Speaker A: For him, does it go downward? Like, in terms of. It's sort of like, uh, process.

Speaker B: It's just the process of this. If it's going to be in the world, this is my best shot. This is what it's actually going to be. And so you think about what the Internet did and does is you can spout off endlessly. You can be on the comments, you can whatever, without ever having to die to the fantasy and actually do something. You can forward political articles around on Facebook all day long and never go down to town hall and actually be in a meeting that actually works to do something good in your town and actually deal with people who don't think like you and actually try to get those potholes fixed. Um, so, yeah, what you're describing is that creates a certain buildup of energy when you're spouting off in the 2D Internet, when actually we're here to be 3D, 45D, 8D humans in flesh and blood who are actually doing things in a world where we get knocked around a little bloody and a little dirty. So, yeah, you're naming all sorts of people going, I would rather actually try this and find out what this is I've been carrying around. I'd rather try this. And then obviously, you're seeing lots of people realize that failure is not something that actually exists. Like, a birch tree produces, what is it, 250 million seeds. One or two of those seeds actually produces another birch tree. So it's 249, whatever million unrealized potentials. So nature itself, the birch tree doesn't think it's inefficient. The birch tree doesn't call that failure. It's just how creation. Creation is abundant and wild and generative. So you're noticing how lots of people are realizing weight. This idea that I try something on the first try, get it quite quote unquote right. What I mean by. Right. What do I mean by success? What do you mean by failure? Yeah.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: These are all ultimately spiritual questions.

Speaker A: I love any reference to biomimicry. I, I'm like my whole book is biomimicry to growth. And I've told you like I had Susan, um, Casey who wrote the book Waves and we were talking about biomimicry with mammals, sea life and, and how it can be applied to life. It's just blew my mind like some of the stuff I learned from her.

Speaker B: But you just talked about biomimicry.

Speaker A: Ah, oh my goodness. You go down that path, you're gonna love it because you reference biomimicry. Like you're using like um. There's cultural mimicry as well. Right? Like, like uh. I'm doing a thing with um, uh, Dr. Elizabeth, um.

Speaker B: Uh.

Speaker A: Lindsay who, Who's a former national. Well she's a National Geographic explorer and she studies ancient languages and she's been working with shaman and, and preserving languages, working with Dalai Lama stuff, but preserving some of these languages. And she talks a lot about how um, there's like, like the cultures, how it's being passed down, how we're losing sort of this ancient wisdom. Um, and there's so much to be learned from it. And so she's talking about like how the ancient Hawaiians, how the shaman, how they would pass down information or wayfinding how they navigated South Pacific with putting a charm in the front. And, and I'm like looking at that going that's a great application for business or thinking or in our lives of not just trying to navigate with the stars, but just bring the world to us, you know, in a different way. And it's like it to me, I'm fascinated with those sort of. That's why I like your work because you really draw from a 3D, 4D, 5D like world and, and uh. And I think that you give people permission to be not perfect. I think that's what we're seeing in social media, in the changes it used to be. Has to have these big productions and then you could show up now you can just show up and. And just create.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. And going back to what you're talking about, about how the confluence of business and spirituality. Uh, let's say somebody's, uh, let's think of something. They're speaking at an event. They're looking out at the crowd or your listeners to this podcast. Okay. You're looking out at the crowd. There's 100 people there. There's 500 people there. There's 50 people there. There's 1800 people there. What is the difference between 1300 and 1700 from the stage? When you look out on the audience at some point, actual human beings is just conceptual. It's just really. There was an extra thousand people there. It was 4,000 instead of 3,000. Really? Okay, fine. What did that mean in the moment? And you think about for how many people? Well, we just have to make more money. How much? Why? We just have to do better next year. Why? Seems like you're having a blast right now. Like, you. We have to. We have to make. We have to do more next year. Why? Why? It sounds like you're having a good time right now. Why don't we just keep doing what we're doing and enjoy it? And you're seeing a crisis for many people because the conditioning, the programming was addicted to more.

Speaker A: To its own and not being present

Speaker B: and to not being present to. Yeah, there was a couple people here. It was a blast. I was here. I was fully present. It was amazing. Uh, and so many people, I've noticed, are realizing that the outcome was how they were validating the effort. So they were going, oh, this is how many people came. So it was worth it, as opposed to, I'm going to do things that are deeply meaningful and satisfying to me. And then however it goes.

Speaker A: Isn't that a form of being present to your own soul and your own personal gifts?

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Right. Like when you're asking those questions about how was your breakfast? That's a pan rep. Because you're being present. We already know that you're not being present. When you ask a zombie question.

Speaker B: Well, you know, you think about, like, let's. Like, you have some issue you're dealing with and you want guidance. You want, like, a truly wise soul, a village elder, to give you guidance. So you hear, there's a woman up the mountain, looking at the mountain up behind my house. Imagine there's some. You hear there's some old woman living up in a cave. So you climb way up the mountain. It takes you a day it's cold and windy, and you get to the cave and there's an old woman with one tooth huddled over a fire. And you're so excited because you're finally going to get some help and some guidance, and you sit down with her and you say, old woman, Old wise woman. Uh, I have a question. Could you please give me some guidance? And she says, sure, but first I have a question for you. Do you know how you can get more Instagram followers? You're like. You're like, okay, this isn't someone who can help me. She's trapped in the same game everybody else is. I need somebody who's not trapped and addicted to the same game.

Speaker A: Uh, so I have a theory. Because you bring up something really important there. It's like, so my next book I'm, um, writing is called Title Shift. And so you're a surfer. So you know what this is, like, in between tides, there's this weird moment where it's like. It's sort of soupy. You can kind of tell that we're in between the tide shift.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And so I believe that we're entering that right now in. And I call it, we're leaving the age of attention, which is more, likes, more pay attention to me. It's about future. It's about, um, you know, bigger, better consumption. And we're moving into this age of trust. And I think it's because we're going to go through the soupy time of mistrust with AI. With. We're mistrusting the job, the culture, the politics. Like, we're going, Nothing's working. And so there's going to be this more collapse of our tension. And I believe and mistrust and that gives birth like the renaissance of, hey, I want to create more community, more intimacy, these circles of trust. Like, you think of church back in the day, you think of, like, um, um, uh, when you're kind of like, go through a crisis, what do you do? You go and you bring in your friends, you kind of bring it close. And I believe that business, uh, businesses that create this trust bubbles, people are going to want. They're not going to buy decisions by. Based on good marketing. Marketers are liars. They're going to be going, I don't believe you. They're looking for raw, authentic and people they trust. So they go, oh, I know. Do you trust God? I trust God. Um, I'm going to tell you what I recommend. I recommend talking to Rob or whatever. And I think that there's this new Intimacy. We're going to desire and we're going to create these networks. That's my theory anyways. I'm curious what you think of that.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. You'll, you'll. And so integrity. Even you think about um, what you. I love what you said about politics. Think about the politician who used to see an issue one way and now sees another way. They're immediately accused of flip flopping as opposed to. Yeah.

Speaker A: Evolving. Like you go, it was your. That was five robs ago. Like, I like how you say that.

Speaker B: Right. Like what you said about like you'll. The person who's like, well I can't trust you. You change your mind will shift to no, I can trust you because you're very straightforward about how you're seeing it. Um, so even, even what we mean by trust. This is a very trustworthy person. They have continued to pursue goodness. Excellent. The greater whole. Uh, that is somebody who can be trusted. Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean I used to believe a lot of things when I was 10 years old that I don't believe now.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Should I judge myself for not having experienced and learned more about the world? You know, and I think that you're right. Like passing judgment. That's probably one of the biggest problems in our world is, is passing judgment instead of like having more of an openness to having compassion where people are at and meeting them where they're at. Like. Because how do I know if that's really the truth of it the matter, you know? Like I uh, look at TV and politics and stuff. I don't even know what's true anymore. I have such a hard time with it. But I know what I feel. I know when I see it. Like I see when people show up and they're present with me and I can understand that if I go back to common sense corner and I feel like that's what's what people are desiring right now.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's fascinating what you say that because my dad worked for the government and when I was growing up he, it was a really big deal to him to be a trusted public servant. And he would literally get asked to speak places and I would go around and listen to him. He would give talks on uh, how important it was to be trusted by the public and for the public to understand that he was doing what he was doing as an act of service. And it's so fascinating now that if you were to say government worker or politician for many people you would not immediately know the person was referring to uh, the sacred act of Public service. You'd have a hundred other images. So I think you're completely right. And I keep meeting people. I do these events here in Ojai where people come sit under these trees with me. I keep meeting people who are running for office. Um, and they're, they don't have ambition. They just were working somewhere in a town and we're like, yeah, we should do this better. It's like a very old school. Yeah. So I'm gonna give myself to. I, uh, want to do that position so that we could do that better for everybody. It's like, it has a very trustworthy. There's like a very trustworthy purity to it in many ways. Yeah. There's going to be a return to that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. I think that if you look at Uber, why did it disrupt the industry? Right. It created transparency. You knew what was happening. You. It totally changed. It's, uh, like, I believe that we're headed towards this transformation economy where people are going to be guides for transformation, for pursuing your dreams, pursuing. Just follow your bliss and see where it goes. Like, don't be focused on if it's going to make money. Focus on if it's going to make you happy, you know, and, and, and just like, just trusting the process, if you will. Right. And I think this transformation, uh, economy is going to affect, I think, politics as well. And if you look at Uber, it's like, it's about transparency. It's about, I trust and I know what's going on. I think that the government's going to be coming in for a. Probably a shift because people are going to demand it.

Speaker B: Um, yes.

Speaker A: You know, you told this story about your dad passing, and there was something that came up for you about since he left. There was more of him here, I think. I can't remember. I'm not. And what it brought to me was sort of like this, this. We won't until something's gone. I think there's a certain level of new presence and desire in a different way that comes up as a different truth. And when you told me the story you're saying to the Internet on your social channel about your dad, I don't know if you want to describe that, but to me, I was like, we're talking about presence, we're talking about government and change. I feel like that's kind of what we're in for, is like, there's going to be this, this new presence of, of like, thinking. Because it's gonna go away.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're seeing it. Yeah. Yeah. And even, uh, my son was just talking to me about how civilizations have these seven. There's a seven stage pattern and how America fits the seventh stage. Right now quite.

Speaker A: Are you talking the turning that the seventh turning? The book, though?

Speaker B: Uh, we're talking about how historians have. There are these seven stages to the life of a civilization from its birth to its demise, and that lots of people are going, hey, uh, the thing that you're feeling isn't just a feeling. There's actually a historical pattern here and that we're in the end of a whole era. We're at end of a. End of a civilization in many ways. So something new is being birthed which will require something to die. Yeah, that saying, live now.

Speaker A: Good times create bad. Um, bad times. Bad times create bad people. Bad times create good people. Like there's like this little cycle like where. Where it's like. I think that's what it's like part of that too. Like we're kind of in that, you know, it's bad times and we're about to give birth to like, better times, I think. Yeah. Uh, yeah, possibly, you know, hopefully. Anyways, um, you were talking about your dad. Do you mind talking a little bit about that? Because I thought that was really profound for me. Anyways, like, about. About you became more present because your dad had left.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. He died last summer and he was a giant weather pattern. He was a force of nature. He was something. He was a federal district judge. His specialty was doing, uh, trials for the drug cartels. Like, he was like, wow. Uh, he had bodyguards and stuff. He was something. And, uh, something about his passing. In some ways, the people that we love, they are. They are in our hearts and they're also outside walking around outside of us. And then they leave this life and now they're only in our hearts. But yeah, I had a moment. Like, whatever. You know, things can be complicated with your father, but I had a moment when he passed of like I was actually he. I knew he wasn't doing well, but I was here in my garage and I had this. It was like a communion with him or something. Like, hey, we're good, we're good. I realize we're at the end here and you and I are good. It's been a good ride. And it, uh, was like a. It's almost like a fugue state. Like a. Like a. In like a closeness with him. And then all of a sudden I was like, well, that was kind of interesting. And then I checked my phone and my mom had just texted me and said, your dad just died. And, uh, it was like the poetry of it. But, um, it was like a. We have these people that we love, and it can be complicated, and it can be joyous, and it can be strained and it can be wonderful, and then they're gone. And really, I got this image of him, like, almost like a happy Buddha just riding shotgun for me now. Like, he's like. I just picture him sometimes going, yeah, I don't like that new book about spaceships. I don't quite get it. But, hey, I got you, man. Like, he's laughing like, yeah, some of what you're doing, I get some of what I don't. But, hey, I got you. I got you, man. Go. Just go.

Speaker A: Well, isn't every parent's desire just to see their kids be happy?

Speaker B: Right, right, right, right.

Speaker A: And then. And that's you stepping into just going, like, being happy.

Speaker B: And I've noticed how many, like. I mean, his funeral was so surreal because you're like, oh, my God, I'm at my father's funeral. But there were so many things people were saying, and I was like, yeah, I am my father's son. Like, so many ways that he was. And I'm like, yeah, I know where I got that. So even just how it all works, people come and people go. And my relationship with my boys and it's. It all. If you cling, grasp it too tightly or you try to control it or manipulate it or make it something, you lose. The wonder and mystery of all these souls sort of bumping into each other here. Yeah.

Speaker A: There's like this impermanence, you know, that creates a special. Like, my dog, you know, it's like, I know my dog is not going to be around forever. We just had a dog pass last year. And it. It broke my heart. I was like, I love that little dude, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: He was at my foot every day. And I, Like, I never thought a dog could really affect me that much. I mean, he's going to pass because he's old, but when he did, I didn't. I think I was more upset with him than some of my relatives dying, to be honest with you.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We had to put it down a dog down a couple of years ago, and it was. We all just went out to the car and sat in the parking lot and cried. It was just the worst. Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's funny because I was talking to my wife about this. We were. We were just talking about animals and nature and then people underestimate the intelligence, global intelligence, nature's intelligence, the spiritual intelligence. And how animals. We see these stories on Instagram where the animal. They save an animal and they'll come back every year and they'll say thank you or whatever. Or you see all these stories. Like, Susan Kane tells me all the stories. She told me this one story about my podcast about they went down fathoms below in with these submarines, right? She was like, doing a whole thing, a whole book on underwater. They turn all the lights out, put the cloths over every instrument so they're pitch black. And then they. They did like Morris code. They did like a little left it. And all the amoebas and underwater did it back.

Speaker B: No way.

Speaker A: Yeah way. And I'm like, what's going on here? Like, yeah, you know, And I think about dog. The dog passing. It's like. I think that. That this energy. That their energy in us, like, we. There's. There's more of an intelligence going on than I think we. We care to pay attention to. And I think that that's what's changing in this new dimension of I think this changing world is we're paying more attention.

Speaker B: Absolutely. This happened to me with dolphins, surfing.

Speaker A: Tell me

Speaker B: the presence. Dolphins and whales, when you're out in the ocean and you're crossing close to them, they're. It's a wordless presence that's more powerful than a lot of humans words. Just being pure, being without the mind racing, just. And. And. And that began to open me up to how many times, like, you go through something difficult and you're talking to somebody about it, and they immediately start rattling off solutions. Here's what you need to do. Here's my. Like. So you call another friend. You're like, what am I looking for? And then one friend is just like, that's tough. And you realize you're, uh, not actually looking for solutions. You're looking for solidarity. But oftentimes, in the most difficult moments of life, we don't need someone to fix it. We just want someone to sit with us in it, which is just presence, Just the gift of presence. And you think about quantum physics. Now we know that the observation of the particle affects what the particle even does. So so many people in the modern world, we were taught, like, there's the observer, then there's the action. And the observer is just noting what the thing the event is doing. And now we know at the subatomic level, the observation of the event affects what even happens. Just watching it affects mhm. The outcome. So when you're talking about trust and such, we're noticing more and more people realizing presence to each other is the greatest gift we give each other.

Speaker A: It's funny you would say that when you mentioned whales and dolphins. Susan Kane talks about there's a part of their brain that they actually, um, share a deep level of intelligence. Empathetic intelligence is what she called it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, um, and they have like a higher level intelligence that. That area of the brain is so more developed than ours. What you're probably feeling is they actually feel and express and we understand, we just have no communication for it, of empathy. And. And she describes the behavior of them working in pods and how they communicate, that they actually display this. There's the only explanation of like, when, when 1. Have you heard of the stories of them capturing them and, and you're like, why don't the dolphins leave? They could totally escape. Well, it's because they, they die together. So the quantum physics of them going, we're in it together. It's like, uh, she's describing it and I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, it's so. She is so clearly articulates the intelligence of sea life that I'm like, we are barely just tapping the surface of this. And quantum physics is proving that there's a correlation with everything. And I'm curious what your study has been, because you've been searching for the meaning of life deeper than most people. Where are you expressing that? Where is your thoughts around this now?

Speaker B: Okay, so you, if you think about it in terms of a starting point, if you think about it in terms of how your, your consciousness, your. Your most basic understanding of what this is, you can start from separation, which is, there's Scott over here, Rob over here, each of your listeners over there, there's a tree, a rock, a mountain, a bird. And then essentially what you're doing is looking to see if any of it's connected. So you begin with separate objects in time and space. And then these moments of, oh wait, we're all connected. Wow. Almost like there are these random moments when you become aware that everything isn't just random, meaningless bits and pieces. Or you can experience a consciousness shift to. Instead of separation being your fundamental lens, unity, seamless oneness becomes your lens. So all of this is actually one thing we call reality. And all of this is as opposed to me having an experience, which I am having an experience. You're having a Scott experience. That experience you could also see as the universe is having an experience Of Scott, the universe is having an experience of rough. And so if you want to, I mean, you think about racism, you think about abuse, you think about income disparity. If, if your lens is separation, then it's always everybody over and against everybody else. But if you move to all of this is its very own self. Having an experience that shift is how you get to understanding that everybody is my neighbor. How you get to. The person who kills has killed themselves in the process of killing another. Because all of it is one very thing. And if you look at every wisdom tradition, at some point, the people who are sort of tuned in have moved to that way of seeing things. So, then. So then you think about very practically somebody who has a supernatural ability under my skin to insult me, offend me, annoy me. I can stay trapped in the separation of them. Why do they do that? Why do they provoke me? Why do they push the buttons? Or I can move to the oneness of.

Speaker A: Huh.

Speaker B: Uh, yes, they're very annoying. Yes, they are irritating. Yes, they drive me crazy. Let me just assume they're my teacher.

Speaker A: Where's the gift?

Speaker B: Come to show me something that is present within myself. So the reason why they have the unique ability to provoke me is because they have come to show me that which resides in my shadow. There is something that I'm terrified is true about myself. And then you shine light in a shadow, it's no longer a shadow. So, yeah, yeah, that, uh. And you'll notice, uh, you'll notice you'll be talking to someone and you'll see that they are. They are. They're fun. The pair of glasses they're wearing is. Yeah, this is all one thing. This is all one. Or like, uh, the great Alan Watts said, you are something the universe is doing in the same way a wave is something the ocean is doing.

Speaker A: It's like. What's that? The quote, um, is like when the, um, uh. When the. When the water droplet knows. Recognizes that it's also the ocean. Is when it understands or whatever. I can't remember the quote, but yeah, enlightenment. It's. Enlightenment is when the. When the water droplet recognizes it's also the ocean, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So then you think about something like homeless people experiencing homelessness from separation. Then that's a problem. We need to fix it. Yes, it is a problem. Yes, we need to fix it. But it's not that there isn't separation. It's just when you move to a oneness or a wholeness, then you see, oh, people experiencing homelessness is a message to us that this whole thing isn't thriving. M. So you begin to see the things that are like, we'll just fix it. Um, actually it's come to show us that something's not working. So yes, it is a problem. Yes, we grieve. Yes, we're trying to figure it out. And we're also reading it for the message that it is about all of us.

Speaker A: My mentor and teacher, Tony Robbins has this great saying. He's like, life's not happening to you.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: It's happening for you.

Speaker B: Right, right, right.

Speaker A: It's like. And so that all these things that are coming your way that you think are friction problems and are actually. Be. Be grateful that you have problems, you know? Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and you're not by bits and fragments of separateness, you are part of something that everything is. Everything, everything is related to everything else. All of it is speaking to you, talking to you, inviting you. Yeah. Yep.

Speaker A: So what does the church sit with all this? Like, I, I think I grew up, like, I, you know, I think I mentioned before we launched, uh, the podcast that I was a missionary kid. Like, I grew up in a very, um, you know, Christian school. And, and uh, you know, so I, I kind of had really interesting.

Speaker B: Somewhere in the world.

Speaker A: We're in the Philippines. Yeah. My dad was in, you know, in Canada. And then he retired early. He was quite successful. And then he went to California. Then he did a bunch of missions kind of like intermittently. And then we moved to the Philippines with Wycliffe Bible, uh, group, I think is what we called. And then we ended up doing a mission for like two and a half years and stuff. So, you know, I kind of grew up in like a, uh.

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, you were in there

Speaker A: and, and I kind of rejected it because for me I saw some hypocrisy, judgment, things like that. And, and you know what's what brought me back to more Christianity and oneness was your podcast with, um, on the seed of greatness and the seed of greatness, you gave this really great, um, first interview you did with him.

Speaker B: Who's that?

Speaker A: What's that?

Speaker B: Oh, oh,

Speaker A: the School of greatness. Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. Mhm.

Speaker A: Uh, what's his name? I can't remember his name or no.

Speaker B: Lewis Howes.

Speaker A: Lewis Howes, yeah. So with Lewis Howes. And it blew my mind because I was like, you totally expressed, um, how I, I've always felt the way, like I didn't reject Christianity, I just rejected my experience of it. But it was like more but this oneness, like, and, And I think that's, like, what you're talking about is, like, even the religious one is people think of separation of religion and stuff. And I'm like, is that true? Like, is that, like. And I'm curious, like this, like, where you sit with that now with the Christian conversation with it, because you've got such that big background. Where is that? Are you. Are you still a heretic? Like, I mean, are you. Where are you with this?

Speaker B: Are you still.

Speaker A: Well, I'm just, you know, I know I'm being sort of playful, but quite

Speaker B: honestly, like, well, what's interesting is what does it mean to be human and how do humans thrive together? And there are lots and lots and lots of traditions and wisdom and data and stories we can draw on. So are we drawing on science? Are we drawing on storytelling? Are we drawing on ritual? Are we drawing on sacred traditions that have had images and metaphors and language to describe human experiences? So, uh, I mean, the. The non violent, generative, uh, itinerant Rabbi Jesus who announces that there's a whole new way to organize the world. That's pretty awesome. The Da Ching has profoundly influenced me. There's a book about the artist Robert Irwin that for the first time gave me a way to understand my life in a whole new way. So I could. I could list all the different ways that have, like, shaped me, informed me and guided me. Yeah.

Speaker A: And, um, maybe that isn't that what this whole purpose of being on this rock is all about is just the Sigmolti. Like, when we say I am, then you go, who is I am? Who is the I in the I am?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's like, like, uh, Master Coke says, like, we're like a meat puppet. Like, we're inside this. Like, it's not really us, but we're like, experiencing the world and everything's there to teach us. And it's, It's. I think that people lose sight of focusing on right and wrong as opposed to what. What am I contributing? What am I here to learn? How can I expand? Like, I think that's what's shifting is people are not contracting anymore. Like, in a way, there's like almost an expansion. You know, the contraction is. Is like. I think it's more like I'm, I'm, um, you know, want to be part of, uh, things I trust. But the expansion is. I know there's more. There's like this question of, like, there's more to this. That's what I think the pandemic does you know, it's like it made go. I'm not following this pattern anymore.

Speaker B: What you think about, everybody would agree that they have some like there's some I here that I that is having an experience. There's some I who is amming. There's some I am going on here. You have that sense. I have this sense. But then what you're talking about is if you actually practice basic self inquiry about the sense we you have of I, you quickly realize so the I is like a white guy from Canada. This white guy's in a garage in Ojai this many years. Uh, you quickly realize that these identities that we grasp and cling to are in many ways passing. There's some I am ness that isn't trapped in time and space, but there is a body that came and will go. And so then what happens is you begin to notice all of the ways that we grasp and cling. Like so and so offended me. I didn't get my props. I got to let them know that. And it's. It's a grasping and a clinging that will only ever lead to suffering. So suffering.

Speaker A: It's like you create your own suffering. Uh, in the back. Did he really stab you in the back? Like we the over the desire of you know, like trying to make. Create this crisis in our minds and then we hear about like the truth of, of like the. Our. What we utter and what we say in our ear and what we experience, we actually create a cellular level change. You know, I don't know if you're the study where the guy goes I love you, I love you love you to water. And then he says I hate you water. And it changes. I think that, I think that people are waking up because some of the science and information is going oh wait a minute, I am affected and I'm affecting myself. It's not just you know, like there's more here. Um, and. And radiating uh, more love and radiating more. More.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: You know, I think that that's what's what's coming when you said wait, woo woo. Like there's this whole thing. I liked your woo woo thing by the way. Oh, proper, proper level of woo. Yeah, yeah. And. And my wife goes, I'm not woo. I'm woo adjacent.

Speaker B: There you go. I call that proper woo a proper level, you know.

Speaker A: And, and it might sound a little bit like, you know, there's a little bit of that know thought of woo woo. And I like how you described it. Could you share that? Because I thought that was just One of the most articulate ways of describing woo.

Speaker B: Woo. Oh, I think I was talking about,

Speaker A: well, people are like woo. Like what is woo Woo. And it's like, it's like saying it twice. And the idea around it's like you have an uncomfortableness with. It was like you're like, almost like you're uncomfortable with it. So it's kind of like woo. It doesn't. It's not quite congruent.

Speaker B: Well, you think about the person who's like, I only believe facts, I only believe science, only be things that are proved. That person has in many ways narrowed reality down to that which can be observed and discerned through a very, very narrow set of filters. What happens to that person when they encounter something that can't be explained through the narrow filters of rational empiricism. So in some ways someone would call it trans rationalism, which is the mind is fully engaged. And the mind is fully engaged to the extent that acknowledges some things transcend the mind's ability to understand them. So you have. The person is like, I only believe in this realm, only material facts I can prove. That's actually quite limited. But then you have what we will call woohoo, which is sort of ungrounded. Um, it has lost any sense of rational thought and is just making shit up.

Speaker A: And so I think it's a form of escapism.

Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes it can feel like bypassing. Like it oftentimes you can feel like, oh, the person's in great pain. That's what's happening here. They're in great pain and trying to find some way to deal with the pain. So I always just laugh and call a proper woo, like there. And that's as scientific as it gets. Like you talk to the great scientists and at some level they're like, yeah, the whole thing is like black holes. We know so much more about black holes. And black holes are just weird as it gets. Like the great scientists start to sound like the great poets filled with wonder and awe. So you're living in the world with your intellect fully engaged, uh, approaching things very rationally. And you also leave plenty of room m for the wonder and awe of a very mysterious universe that just blows our mind around every turn. So I just call that proper level of woo and um, uh, a. An honesty about our own pain and what we're carrying around. So so much of it is shaped by that which is lurking within us that's asking to be examined and basic self inquiry about why am I so angry with that person? Why am I? And we follow that and we learn all kinds of things about ourselves.

Speaker A: Totally. And you know, it's like this, this, this. And that's where I think there's no separation between. Because it's a business podcast. You know, it's like, I think Tony Robbins says it's like business is a spiritual journey. I mean you have to become more to be an entrepreneur, to, to make change, to create, be, be in creation mode. There's all these, these things. And if you become a, um, almost like a business of, of generating growth, uh, for good, if you will, uh, be a groundswell for good. You know, it's like, it's, it's, to me, it's like you're, you're really. Why, why is there like when people used to be, like, used to work and then go to church and it was so separated. It goes back to the oneness. And I think that's what I'm, what I'm advocating with my groundswell thinking is the unseen wave of business growth is some of the magic is us having these discussions with a guy like you. And people are going, what's that got to do with marketing? I'm like, it has everything to do with marketing. Uh, because, yeah, ah, yeah.

Speaker B: When I work with business people and people are like, they know there's something next or they're trying to figure out where to take their business next, or they have an idea but they're blocked and they can't. We all. It always, always goes to, well, let's go back through your story. Who have you been? Let's go to all the usual. Doubt, anger, rage, grief. There's a direct relationship between grief and imagination. Grief is allowing what needs to pass through you to pass through you. And lots of people have lots of ungrieved grief. So they're having trouble imagining the next chapter, phase or step. But until we've grieved, what's asking to be grieved? That's a full bodied experience which transcends the mind. So I've sat with lots of people who just um, we just had to, they just needed a moment, some deep breathing to grieve something. And some of these good things end and they're like, wait, I'm not. But that, well, did it end? It did. Okay, well there's probably some grief there. And then I've watched people, uh, have an experience of grief. Sometimes it happens very quickly and instantly the ideas start. Oh, now I see it. Now I see the next step. Yeah. So you took this idea that um, this idea that somehow spirituality is something other than how we move in the world and how we understand what it means to be a self here. Having this experience is a very narrow, naive view. And so I love what you're talking about. Yeah. Lots of people are starting to realize this or even think about how many CEOs or people who own businesses have these people who work with them and for them, and they actually care for these people. And not just that the people are well paid, but care for these people and who they are and who they've been and what it's even like to work in that company. Yeah. These are all very straightforward spiritual questions. Yeah.

Speaker A: It can turn people are servants.

Speaker B: Um, absolutely. Absolutely. And yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, uh, I've, uh. I've literally done sessions for business people. And I'll say something like, where was I? I was somewhere and everybody in the room. You had to have be making 10 million, more than 10 million a year. And I was like. So I was like, what is going on in this room? Finally I just said to them, you know, that you have a soul. And these dudes were like, whoa, that is mind blowing. I was like, oh, my God.

Speaker A: Because you're talking to them in a way that's. That doesn't is irreverent.

Speaker B: I literally had to do it. Was it all of a sudden the room just turned electric? Because I literally did like, this is a football. Just like, okay, so you're like a fully integrated human. There's like all these dimensions to you. So if you, like, turn the whole thing into Q3 returns, that's like a slice of the slice of the slice of the slice of the pie. It's such a tiny thing compared to this magnificent infinite thing that's happening inside of you. And, um, it was possible in the previous era that's dying. It was possible to make a ton of money and have a ton of employees and have not done very, very basic care for yourself and spiritual integration. That was actually possible to know. Wildly successful in this incredibly narrow area and to missed a whole world of wisdom and shaping and transformation about what it means to be human.

Speaker A: I've seen so many people that are super. And Tony Robbins has this great. Again, I'm quoting him, of course. But it's like success without fulfillment is the ultimate failure. And what you're. I believe what you've been guiding is transformation. You're being guided that you have to bring them to a present reality to then allow that opening for you to then guide them to the Next transformation isn't that. I mean, that's what I see Rob doing with all the stuff you're doing. You're kind of like this. There's stealth. You're like the stealth transformation, dude. It's like a new form of pastoring or something, right? Oh, that's how I see it. Um, I know we rolled over the hour. I didn't. I don't mean I could take more and more of your time. I feel like me and I could talk for, like, a lot longer, but I want to be mindful and respectful of. Of the time that you've given me. Um.

Speaker B: Well, it's been great.

Speaker A: It's been so good. I'd love to have, uh, you back and have another discussion. Um, you know, and sort of, I guess I'd say, like, you know, just the. In sort of to kind of close the loop. You know, you were describing, um, taking a couple sets on the head, three sets, and. And you're like, you know, you're. And that moment is when we had an opening for you, because I think you were kind of like something died or something is the way you were describing it. And. And that gave birth to this book. And it's like, you know, you're. You're now embarking on this. What lies ahead. What is this? This is book one. Just quickly tell me, like, what's next? Or do you even know?

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, I have a vision for these. For this world of books and this sprawling story that takes place in all these different planets. And, uh, all kinds of things are happening in the stories about. Well, I mean, governance and economics and grief and art, all kinds of stuff. So, yeah, I'm very, very. I'm focused. It's really, really enjoyable. One of my plays premieres next month, um, at Mirabox Theater. And so I'm going to be sitting in the audience just with the biggest smile on my face while these actors. Well, uh, at opening weekend. So that's like, joy. And then. Oh, I'm doing. Ah. And then, like, I'll come up with an idea. Like, in April, I'm doing Spaceship Sessions. So I'm doing an art show, book club hang, book signing, shindig around Southern California. I'm doing one in Costa Mesa. And so you're doing a co. You're

Speaker A: doing a collab or somebody, aren't you? Like a co signing or something?

Speaker B: No, I just. I just set up, like, all the. My paintings. And then.

Speaker A: Oh, okay.

Speaker B: Um, I'll probably read from the book, and then people will. We'll See where it goes. So sometimes I cook up. I'll, like, have an idea and I'll just try. I'm going to try these three. I'm calling them Spaceship Sessions. One's at a yoga studio. One's at a, um, Goat Moon coffee place. One's at a, um. One's going to be outside in, like, a parkway, in a street. So oftentimes I just get an idea and I go try it and see what I learn. That's generally how I love it. Just try stuff.

Speaker A: So it feels to me like the energy is so high with that with you. You know, it's like you almost relish in the fact that it's, like, unpredictable and you come by it honestly. Somehow, you know, as soon as I'm.

Speaker B: As soon as I go, oh, yeah, this could really not work, then I know I'm gonna do it. As soon as I know, oh, this could really, like, no one could come. You could lose a bunch of money. This could really not work. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, good. Now I know for sure I'm doing it.

Speaker A: It's like you've conditioned yourself to create experiences that, you know, only come through some level of risk or change or unpredictability or something.

Speaker B: Yes. And the moment I know that it's. It's the moment I know that it's going to work, I'm bored and I'm like, yeah. Ah, well, I hope.

Speaker A: I hope that that was maybe the reason you decided to say yes after four years to joining my podcast. So, sure, let's see what happens. So much.

Speaker B: Let's talk about business marketing. Let's do it.

Speaker A: Right on.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me on.

Speaker A: Thank you for. For coming on and just maybe share with people where they can follow you.

Speaker B: Uh, well, my site, robbel.com has, like, where you can come and spend two days under the trees with me in Ojai. And that's got all kinds of stuff about the books and the robcast and all that. And then real Rob Bell. Sometimes I put stuff on Instagram, which is basically just telling people what I'm up to. Yeah, start there.

Speaker A: All right. And, um, thank you again for being on the show. I really appreciate it. This was, like, so enlightening, and I. I could hardly wait to. To jam with you. This was great. And for those of you listening, just, um, go to Groundswell fm. Um, there's a voice. Um, you can leave me a voicemail. Leave a message for Rob. I'll pass it on to him. Uh, let me know what you think. What you loved, what you want to see next. Whatever it is, just drop me a voicemail, and until next time.