Renee Warren | Create Visibility with PR

Speaker A: Aloha and welcome to the episode of the Groundswell Origins podcast where I connect to you outstanding humans and sustainable ideas. I'm your host, Scott Martin, and today we're talking with a PR expert named Renee Warren. She's gonna be telling us a little bit about the roi, the some of the considerations and some strategies and some very simple frameworks to be able to think about how you can get yourself out there for influence. And we talk everything from AI to newsjacking. It's a really good pack, full episode of really understanding how you can benefit from pr. So without further ado, let's paddle in. All right, welcome to the show. We have the one and only Renee Warren. Welcome to the show.

Speaker B: Hey, thanks for having me.

Speaker A: So we were just in the, before we jumped on, we were both going, well, what exactly are we gonna be talking about? And this is like a great story because, uh, um, I, and I actually initiated this conversation for getting on the podcast because I saw this great post that said, why do PR firms ask for a one year contract? They lack confidence in their ability to demonstrate their value each month. Question mark. And I'm like, amen. I'm like, this is actually one of the most pervasive challenges for high quality, high caliber, um, providers. And then PR being one that's most certainly in that category of requiring. This is the time factor. And people with short term, um, attention spans and so forth, they don't benefit from these things. So when I read that, I was like, I need to reach out to you and, and ask this. Cause I haven't had anybody on pr. So to answer your question, I think the first step is I want to talk a little bit about PR with you.

Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it.

Speaker A: So do you want to respond to that text like that post?

Speaker B: Oh man. So that was, it's really interesting. Cause I understand the landscape of PR and I understand how people are. They've. Every single person that I've ever worked with that has worked with another PR person or agency before has had an interesting experience. They're like, we haven't gotten any wins and, and it hasn't turned into sales. And so there. Now there's this whole conversation around attribution. Where did people hear from you? The thing about PR is when people put it in the same bucket as sales, they automatically lose. They are automatically deflated in the benefits of understanding what PR can do for them. Because it's not about sales initially, right? It's like you don't put a roof on a house if the foundation hasn't been built. You gotta build the whole structure. PR is about creating authority, about credibility. It's about becoming a thought leader so that you subconsciously become the go to expert in the space. And what does that mean? That you have to put yourself out there. People have to be reminded of who you are. So you think of like something um, really specific in an industry. What is like something that's really interesting to you right now? That's very specific? It's snowboarding or something.

Speaker A: Are you talking like just as a personal interest or business interest?

Speaker B: Either. Just. I just need an example.

Speaker A: An example. Okay. Surf art.

Speaker B: Surf art?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What's that?

Speaker A: So it's like uh, art, like fine art, paint art. Um, and with surfing, um, you know, surf surfing.

Speaker B: So who's the best? Is this photography or painting?

Speaker A: Painting.

Speaker B: So who's the best painter in the space?

Speaker A: Um, I'd say there's about five of them. Um, and so that I'm, that I'm aware of, I've been tracking surf art for about 15 years and I've got the world's largest community around surf art

Speaker B: called, you know, do you know, um, Hemian. Um, just one second. That's his last name. I'm totally sidebarring your question, but I will pull it up. He's an artist that creates surf and waves on reclaimed wood. And we have actually have a piece in one of our bathrooms here and it is gorgeous what he does. Uh, Mark Hemion. Yeah, you gotta check it out. H E M M E O N Anyway, okay, so maybe that's not the best example. I'm gonna say like, say you're, say you want to hire somebody to help you with your, your blog. Right. And so you're really looking at somebody who has probably an experience creating a strategy, but they really understand the SEO of blogging because that's kind of really the foundation of why you want to blog. But it also to be found, but also because that positions you as a thought leader in the space if all you talk about is SEO and the up to date tips and tactics on um, how to use it for your business. So who's a go to person in your space that you know about SEO?

Speaker A: Um, I'm actually interviewing Rand Fiskin. So. Okay, yeah, one of the largest names in SEO.

Speaker B: Exactly. Next week is the guy in the space. But what did he do to get there?

Speaker A: Well, that guy, I mean he has done these 50 minute whiteboards for years and he has been ah, one of the most, I think perfect YouTubers and bloggers. In the world on the topic.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: Neil Patel. Really?

Speaker B: And Neil. Him and Neil. And they've put out so much content and when they first started there probably, there was probably no direct sales. But what happened was they talk about the same talk topic ad nauseam, that people are like, uh, another SEO video with Ran. But guess who they're going to go to when they need help? Guess who they'll probably what subscription software they'll sign up to. And so what PR does is it gives you this platform to showcase your talent, to showcase your experience, your thought leadership, to allow you to have a perspective and a perspective and opinion of an industry that not two other people have. So. But that stuff takes time, right? How many videos has Rand put out? Like probably thousands at this point.

Speaker A: Thousands.

Speaker B: Yeah. And he started this 11 years ago.

Speaker A: How do you communicate that to your clients? So if you're a pr, you're in. So say just let's put ourselves in the shoe of someone that's in prison. And we're, we're like, we're going, hey, we are advocating for it. We get it. Like, we know it takes time. How do you actually position it so the client really can absorb it? That will buy in because sometimes you get the head nod on long term strategies. But then it's amazing how quickly it's forgotten and they're going to short term and then it's just, it readjusts the strategy and they don't get the result they want. What is the, what is your approach been to really help, uh, owners that are listening, the entrepreneurs going, okay, uh, I need to really understand why this takes time. You can't take these sort of metrics for.

Speaker B: Well, it is like the feast and famine and the ebbs and flows of it. Uh, you might get. So say you have the perfect strategy, the perfect pitch, everything is like tight and it's great. You'll have weeks of pitching where you don't hear much back and stuff like, think about it, world events happen. It's probably like the one industry that gets affected most by things that are happening in the world. So wars, the economy, the pandemic, all this stuff essentially took over all the headlines. And here's an example of what happened with me years ago with a, uh, tech client. We had them geared up. We had an exclusive with TechCrunch for 24 hours. Then we had like Business Insider, you name it, all geared up to showcase the funding announcement. And it just so happened that the day that TechCrunch had the exclusive and amongst other publications the following days was the day that Google announced they were changing the name of their company to Alphabet or whatever it was. Uh, so all of a sudden, now our contact at TechCrunch who promised us this exclusive, said, guys, it's out of my hands. This is major breaking news. We can't post this now. Their exclusive was from that day. So the other publications then went and they published the announcement. So TechCrunch didn't care anymore because other people had already mentioned it. We've done our job, and there are so many things that are out of control. The people that I, uh, don't have to have this conversation with, they understand it, they get it. And it's about like, if you're driving down the highway, you got to stop and put fuel in that tank every now and then. You're still going to reach your destination, but you got to stop, put fuel in the tank. So PR is really. It's more than the, hey, I want to get featured here. And even the people that do get featured, like, hey, I was in Forbes and Brit Co. And Drew Barrymore's magazine, and on this person's podcast, and nothing came of it. Which is the ultimate lie. It's the ultimate lie because they don't even know that somebody saw that, went to their Instagram, went to their website, and eventually made a purchase because there's no tracking set up for that, for the most part. Right. Like the magazines that you have in your house or maybe in your bathroom, um, you. They can't track whether or not you've come from a product that they've featured on in the magazine. So it's like.

Speaker A: It's like this unseen. It's this unseen, uh. That's what I taught my book, the Unseen Wave of Business Growth. But PR is like, there's. It's like you're planting a seed, standing over it and going, why am I not seeing the crop? You know?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: You can't see what's the growth that's happening. It's the. The unseen. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. And then it's the people that understand that it's a process, know that it's something that you should invest into over time, and everybody should be doing it well before you even start running your first paid ads. And I'm not talking about, like, going to ask for the COVID of Forbes, but creating the strategy that becomes so woven into your marketing daily activities, that is something you're naturally doing. So it could be pitching the media, scanning for opportunities, trying to be a guest on a podcast

Speaker A: so I'm just, I'm gonna like, if so say I don't, I don't understand that though. I haven't quite experienced the, of the outcome. What am I like, how do you actually present that to get me on board with, hey, I'm really. This is a long term investment. It's like I, I can see, I mean, I, uh, clearly go, well, you know, there's a benefit long term, you get all this visibility, but to bridge them between, like that long term sort of vision. Is there any quick wins that PR can give you?

Speaker B: Oh, totally. Oh yeah, we've. We've had so many quick wins. Um, we had one client, I remember this. We, we were, we pitched a top publication for them, we secured them the feature and it was published the day or two days before our contract even started. So there's a lot to be said about luck in the PR industry. Right place, right time, right person, right opportunity. It, it all has to kind of flow in order to make it work. Because you can take somebody who has been. I mean, there's so many factors, but really what it comes down to is are you willing to invest into a strategy that over time, once you get that momentum, it can snowball. It's about creating those initial little wins. So it could be like if you're going on a podcast roadshow, maybe it's starting with the lower hanging fruit, the smaller podcasts, and becoming a guest and then really figuring out your voice and the stuff you're talking about, using that as leverage to pitch the next show. So I had a client that just got on Entrepreneurs on Fire, which we've been waiting for this to happen because now that's huge leverage that she's been on this podcast, which opens up doors to other bigger shows. And so you build the momentum based on the stuff that you're, the activities that you're executing on last week and the wins you had. And it could be small. Like small wins are just as big, I think about local brick and mortar shops. They think OPR is not for me, but it is. Like, my sister runs a pediatric physiotherapy clinic in Ottawa, Canada, and she became the go to morning person for their Rogers television station to talk about certain pediatric physical therapy things that are relevant to kids in the area. And so now she's on speed dial for them. And she's been on the show a couple times because she put herself out there. So brick and mortar, here's a great example is if you have a restaurant, a clinic, a fashion like A shop, whatever it is, is look at your place on a map and then create a circumference around it based on the furthest you know, someone's willing to drive or commute to get to your place. So let's just say it's like a hundred mile radius. Then you think of what's all the media, who are all the influencers and social in that little circumference. And that should be your media list to begin with. And always because you see this in the media, like oh, that guy, he's in everything all the time. He must have a killer PR team or not. He's just consistently showing up, putting himself out there, sharing his good stuff, maybe pitching. But when you become, there's a point in this, in this cycle when you become the thought leader, people come to you now so that you don't have to do all the pitching all the time. That's like next level unlocked.

Speaker A: Mhm. Yeah. So I really like that, you know, the way I've always described it because I, you know I've had the um, helping people with the strategy. I've always been a big proponent. Uh, of course for, for pr. I think most people, I think intuitively understand that, you know, but the difference between not all content is the same. Like there's earned, paid, created, promoted and earned. Media has a different asset value. So I kind of explain that as an asset in my mind when I'm kind of helping someone, you know, kind of understand the benefit of the investment because that's really what it is. The investment waiting for its return is that that actually has a compounding effect. So I look at myself an article like I wrote a piece in um Adage on ethical information management in 2001 that to me is like it's a, it's a document I'll always share because I'm going, I've been around a long time, not one of these guys that's been marketing 10 years ago. Like I was, I was like in the mix of personalization AI before it was even called that. Right. So to me that's like it's a hat tip to the, the authority and like part what people understand is sometimes it's also the sequence of just continuing like I said consistently having little pieces of other people that you've earned the privilege of being on their platform. They can tell the story and is what's your thoughts on that? Like the. Because to me it's like I look at, looked at your page, it says as seen in. That's a lot of credibility when you see you've been in Forbes, cnn, or what all the different locus were. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, that is like a badge of honor, but it's also a resume. And the people that are in the industry can understand kind of how that works too. So. And people kind of used it and use it in a way that's also not the best way. So if you have these logos on your website, as seen in Forbes Business Insider, the best way to leverage that is that to actually click through to the article that you're mentioned in. And a lot of times, some of these articles might quote you, but there's no link back to your website. Um, and so it's kind of like, is this a credibility thing? What does that mean? It's still. It's still good. But if you look at the effort that would have taken for somebody to be quoted in form, Forbes not featured, maybe mentioned, but no links, could be the same amount of effort as somebody who got a full feature. But what's the difference? Well, the feature probably links back to their website, which is really important for Google and search to identify. Oh, this really notable website's linking back to this website. But then will people will take those little quotes about, hey, somebody quoted me. It was one sentence, and it said my name. And now they're like, I was featured in Forbes. No, you weren't. You were quoted in Forbes. It definitely adds to credibility because there's a filter for somebody who would actually want to talk to you about being an expert to be, uh, interviewed in Forbes. But it's not like a 10 out of 10 when it comes to PR. So what I'm seeing now, there's a huge shift that's happening in the industry. Um, we know a ton of big publications have laid off a lot of their staff writers, even their editors, which means, like, who's doing the work? Because they're still publishing content. There's a lot of contributors, There's a lot of freelancers and contractors that are paid for by piece. Um, and it's just gotten a lot more difficult. So when it comes to PR in 2024, for companies that are, like, our size, the best bang for your buck is to do very strategic podcast roadshows for many reasons. Um, one is you develop a relationship with the host because you guys get to hang out for an hour, you get to shoot the crap before and after and during. But also, if you're really strategic about it, it's a great conversations. You made these connections, and you ask the host when you're done the recording. Hey, do you know anybody else that might um, that I could be a guest on the show for anybody in your community? Do you think there's anybody that needs this content? People always make introductions and that's how it spirals to getting even. Like more popular shows and more popular guests on your own shows as well. Um, and so, so going back to the featured in things too. What we're also seeing in the industry is a lot of sponsored posts. So you might go to Forbes and you'll see content that's contributed by someone like yourself. And you became essentially a member of Forbes Council, which is an invite only council for those that have businesses over a million dollars a year and you get invited to be a contributor but there's also a fee for you to pay. So you pay to be a part of this membership and then you're allowed to contribute like I don't know, one article a month or something, which is fine. In those articles you can't really link to and anything else. Anyone else you can only. There's very strict guidelines like you can only link to other Forbes articles.

Speaker A: So it's not for promotion only.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So long time ago I was a contributor to Entrepreneur.com of which I had to reapply.

Speaker A: I'm actually on a call, I'm actually podcasting with Jason the editor right after this one.

Speaker B: Nice today.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I, I was a contributor but I stopped contributing for a while. So then my name just kind of fell off so I reapplied. But long time ago is we wrote a really relevant article and we needed to quote a certain industry. Our uh, one of our clients happened to be the right fit and I was like, oh, it seems like it's. It goes against ethics. Anyway, we threw their name in there at the time we were allowed to link to them and it was still a very credible source to link to Anyway and. And for years they got traffic from that one piece. There was some like virtual assistant automation software or something, I don't even know, I can't remember. And for years they got traffic because that article ranked for those keywords.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So that. That's a huge win in pr. That's what people want. That is hard to get.

Speaker A: So one of the things that you brought up earlier, I want to just kind of bring back to the front which is this. Maybe it's the man. You didn't say it this way, but this is why I'm gonna say it is fake pr. You know the um, you know I I see these people putting, I'm on. I've been featured on the COVID of Forbes. And I'm like, were you or did you pay for that? And that's like, I, I actually want to know which of that, which of those is true. Like what? Like, because to me it's like when someone just buys something, it doesn't have the same level of credibility, even close to it. Unless somebody's actually been, um, you know, they've even asked to be a writer or they're being a journalist is writing about them or somebody writer is writing about them and quoting them. Like to me that's like, because you're the expert. This is like you bought your way in there. And I feel like that's the cloudy area for me. I was gonna ask you about like, what's your take on this and what is. What's uh, tell me more about it.

Speaker B: Let's double click on that. You're gonna start seeing a lot more of this. Why? Because publications have to monetize their platforms. There's no shame in it. The interesting thing is you still have to go through the PR process in order to be invited to have a sponsored post to be on the COVID of some sort of magazine. And so there's still credibility there. And then most people that aren't in the industry don't even know that's happening. Behind the scenes. We know it's happening, right? We're like, oh, we know. And so some people come at me and say, hey Renee, you know, I was offered um, a contributed article for this publication in an industry pub. It's be going to, to cost me 2,500 bucks. Okay, let's go through their distribution. Who, like if they're going to share on social, is there ah, a podcast involved? Like what are the opportunities? Because now it's a sponsorship or advertising line item on your P and L. Right. So it goes from like PR to this, which is different. And so now we are in the seat to ask the questions, does this actually work for us in terms of an advertising spend? But you can't just get to there doing advertising, it requires pr. And so there's a lot of publications out there too that say, hey, we want to nominate you for women 40 under 40 and there's a cover option for you or maybe get like a two page spread and we think that you'll be like one of the nominated ones and it's going to cost you $3,000. Am I immediately, I immediately reply saying no, like if, if you're Offering this to anybody, that means anybody can get it. It immediately diminishes the credibility of the list. And those lists are just a popularity contest. They're a paid popularity contest. So it's like, who has the most amount of friends that will pay to vote for me?

Speaker A: So this creates a massive amount of mistrust for people in that portion of pr. That's a problem, I think, and I think it's only going to get worse. Like you said, I think this is going to become a massive trust problem with PR and with possibly publications being under more stress than ever and writers now you leveraging AI, which is a whole different topic, um, to help, you know, promote right. Articles. The question does come up is going, is this true?

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: Is this the real you? So I'm curious what you think of this sort of what's happening that could change what's the future look like with AI and how this can affect.

Speaker B: Oh man. I actually had this conversation with an editor yesterday and I was like, straight up, what's going on? What's your prediction? And she's like, I don't, I don't know. We both believe that publications will exist. Some will come and go, but the novelty of a magazine I genuinely believe will still exist, just like books will. How they monetize their platforms will change. And because they used to be like, if you got into Forbes, into the print publication 10 years ago, that was like the best thing you could achieve in the business world, right? And now it's like, there's so many experts out there, anybody could get that. But how they monetize their platform. So now we're looking at this, okay, it's a PR play meets sales or sorry, meets advertising. So now that's what you have to look at in terms of like your strategy. It's, it's an advertising place. Sometimes that requires the strategy of PR because you still need to create the pitch and do the follow up and provide the media assets and then pay the bill at the end. So I think, uh, well, one thing I did want to say too with this is the shift in the industry in my perspective. And I hate talking about the pandemic, but I believed a crap ton of people started to mistrust the media because they took a stance on one specific side. If we talk about sides and there was just bad reporting and it's happened all over the world and people are like, I see what's going on here. You have one person that ah, can control the entire publication and if they're conservative or pro this or pro that. Everything in that publication is going to go according to their values. And I think what happened is this cracked open the industry, too. You either pro this or not. And if you're not, then you're not going to read that publication anymore, and you're not going to trust the media. So the mistrust is there, and the pandemic put a spotlight on it. So now people are like, shuffling what's going on. Like, this industry can't die. We still need it. How is it going to exist? And we're still having that conversation. So what we know works in all of this is podcast tour AI Isn't there yet where you can have a, uh, video version of me sitting on this side of the screen chatting with you about how I feel about something. So, like, it's immediately valid. Um, um. So podcast chores are huge. But also, I genuinely believe content marketing is coming back. It's coming back. Blogs are coming back. Like to have your own blog, to be SEO optimized, creating your own media company. People hate to hear this. That sounds expensive, Renee. How do I do that? In our pockets, we have the opportunity to create YouTube videos, expand our reach on social. And most people aren't going at it. They're not, they're not trying. They're like, I don't want to be on social. How I don't want to share all my good stuff. But yet they complain about their competitors getting all the attention when it comes to journalists and editors. And they are looking at two experts that could be like, we'll say to, um, infertility experts. One, they both, they're both credible. They both have all of their, like, 10,000 hours, so to speak. And one has a bigger and more engaged social following. They will go with that. And the reason why is because they hope that that expert will share their content on their social, which increases the eyeballs to the article, which is what publications want. So for us, if we're, if we're leveraging our personal brand, it's our duty to have some sort of social presence on a platform that's relevant to us. Otherwise, other people who are way less talented than you are going to get the spotlight because they're doing it totally.

Speaker A: You know, there's a lot of things to unpack in, in that. And, you know, I, I'm thinking about the, you know, the media mistrust. And I think if I heard somewhere that, you know, if you Google marketing, uh, the next words beside our markers or liars or something like that, things the number one search, you know, and it's like, it's the. What's happening in my mind is that people are really, they have their guard up about, you know, pretty much everything. And the book I'm writing next called Title Shift, which is about this is the shift away from the age of attention. We're moving to this age of trust. And I agree with you, because the podcasts are human. They are not going to be gamified very easily. Communities will not be gamified by AIs very easily because it's about human, human conversations and interactions and that can give birth to real human content. I think there's going to be a surge of it. I also agree with you that, um, you said something about the magazines, um, uh, and the prediction that you were making. I do have a prediction for that specifically, which is I think that print magazines are going to make a comeback. And the reason is, is we've gotten so quick to go, what's the most efficient way to do something like digital? And then only to realize that maybe to really enshrine somebody of a piece of content that's been humanly produced and is like, you know, whatever, it's going to be enshrined in something physical. So I think that the fit, like I'm right now doing a lot of more physical DMS than I used to do, tons of them back 20 years ago. I think DMs are coming back, you know, so it's sort of cyclical, if you will.

Speaker B: It's like the Twitter. Twitter became a big deal back in 2009, no, 2010, somewhere around there, when there was just a mass amount of people coming onto Twitter. And Twitter essentially helped people create many communities. And we had like twestivals, so Twitter festivals and it encouraged people to meet in person. So I actually used, thanks to ChatGPT. I was like, what are your predictions on the industries that are going to survive the next recession? You know, what was up there? And it kind of shocked me. But now I think about it is real are, uh, events, our events.

Speaker A: Because, uh, replicant. It's like people are always going to

Speaker B: want to meet and if maybe automate more.

Speaker A: So they're going to want to meet.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that's why podcasting is huge. People like podcasting is dying. I'm like, it depends who you talk to. It's not. It's growing and events are huge because we want that physical connection. Now people are going to start taking their phones and putting it down more because that is causing not only, like, overwhelm, but so many mental health issues, addiction problems. We want the inhuman, um, connection. So I agree. I feel like print's going to make a comeback somehow. We're going to start to default into old ways of doing PR and media, which I think is a beautiful thing.

Speaker A: When you mentioned before about media company and that a lot of people are like, like overwhelmed by the possibility of, of the cost of that. And so I have a really unique point of view on this, and that is I do a lot of brand strategy and I always try to explain to people it's three layers and everybody's been focused almost entirely on it goes brand, programs, campaigns. Campaigns are what everyone focus on. Short term, I post a post, I want to get a sale. I, you know, go make a phone call, whatever. That's campaigns. But brand is something that's pervasive. Programs are permanent or, sorry, um, um, program persistent. And then campaigns are intermittent, like you're kind of doing intermittently. So. But programs in the middle is where, Where I think the juice is right now. This podcast is a program. So I, I've shifted language of media and looked at it as, as really, because that makes it embedded into the company is like, it becomes a brand asset. So a program like my podcast, like you're telling people to go on the podcast, that's actually a great program. You think of newsletters, um, communities. Those are all programs you to nurture people through the sales process. But you have some direct control and influence over the, uh, attention piece of it, which social media right now is going bonkers on. Can you actually get attention on social media? So it allows people to kind of move into your own PR bucket where you can actually let them know where to find you, to read about you and to become an expert. But you become the media company. So instead of going to Entrepreneur magazine for that information, you actually become your own magazine. I see the rise of individual magazines being another trend that is.

Speaker B: That's like, totally. It, uh, you hit the nail on the head with that. And I don't want to discourage people or scare people by saying, start a media company. I mean, like, you can call.

Speaker A: I think it's a word. I really think it's like the same thing.

Speaker B: It's true.

Speaker A: We're saying the same thing you just said. But I think most people, when they think media company, they're thinking cash, like lights, camera, stage. That's not. I don't think that's what you're saying.

Speaker B: You know, like, so this phone, this is the new iPhone. I didn't even think there was this one, but apparently Lady Gaga or Selena Gomez shot their last music video using an iPhone. So when people are like, oh, I don't have the equipment. I don't understand the technology. You have a phone, right? Yeah. What do I say? I'm like, chatgpt it. Figure it out. Like, it's not hard. It can be exhausting. I get it. But that's the opportunity. And it's like, media's not dying. It's just evolving. It's morphing into something do new, more indie pubs, more smaller podcasts. Like, another thing too is I also want to just throw up a big warning for people that are taking this adventure into starting their own quote programs or media company is it requires an investment of time over years. I've been doing my podcast for three and a half years now. We're on episode two forty as of today. And some days I'm like, what's the ROI of this? I don't get it. Guess what happened? Every single time I ask that out into the universe to God, I'll get a message from people. Renee, I just listened to your episode with so and so totally changing my morning routine. Or I got two videos today, actually, of people endorsing my podcast on social media. I'm like, hmm. These are. People are saying, this is a great podcast. It's changed their life. So now all of a sudden, it's like, you think of finite now. It, like, opens up different, um, communities that it's attracting. And so now I'm pulling people in. The ROI of my podcast is that I can build deeper relationships with people that I don't even know are listening to me. And on several occasions, I've heard people on sales calls say, renee, I listened to your show and I really liked you. That's why I'm jumping on this call. And so it helps me close deals better. But also, it's like, if people are choosing to invest their business resources and time to work with me, they want to know if they're going to like me. And the podcast is the best way to really do that because it's organic. You're having a conversation. It's like sitting on a fly on the wall listening to people while they're chatting over coffee. You and I, right now, we're just going back and forth. There's no script, there's no agenda. This is something we're passionate about. But now people are going to be like, renee is a girl that talks about pr, and she has A perspective about her predictions for the future. So I either want her on my show, or I'm going to look at her programs, and that's how it happens. But the more you do this, the more reach you get.

Speaker A: I. I couldn't. I just, like. I'm.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: That's why I knew that we're gonna have a really good conversation about this. And, um, the way I've been sort of, like, thinking about it is there's gonna be so much more manufactured content, right? Manufactured through AI. All this sort of stuff. And the podcast, it does something so different. And it's. It's really. It's two pieces. One is resonance. To hear your voice, there's something about. You can tell there's. I was. I had a. I was doing a. I think a research on. On this book. I was, um. I've now pushed out a little bit called Sound Waves. I had a CIA guy on my clubhouse, uh, because I was doing research for it on Pluckout Clubhouse, and he said the number one way that. That, um, humans can detect lies is if they are blindfolded. They don't have any other senses, and you can only hear them because that's the number one way that any Inhumans can detect lies. It deceives you with your eyes. Your eyes will deceive you more than your ears. And I thought that really interesting. Right? And so when you think about podcasts, it's. Instead of being manufactured content, creating, displaying. It's about mastery. Right now, you and I are bantering in real time because some people are really good. Like you said at the very beginning of the segment, there's people out there that don't have the skill you have, that are done a really good job of packaging. That is what I think. A lot of people are moving their business there, and I think that podcasts, there's a level of mistrust, and they want to hear someone in their mastery. Because I'm like, I. For me, I'm like, I love life. I love doing interventions on people, marketing life. You know why? It shows mastery. It's hard to duplicate. And that's what we're doing right now. We're demonstrating mastery on the fly, dialoguing in real time, and kind of building on a concept that people can follow along. That's why I think that strategy you're talking about for influence, for your personal brand in primary, it's a fucking home run. I think it's the new. It's the new best stage, really.

Speaker B: Yeah. And then some people, I say they. They're very nervous when they show up to be on shows. Um, we. When we work together, we craft those questions. So we usually have, like, 30 questions that the media or podcast host can ask based on, like, personal life or their product or their industry. So they can print it out and they can walk around the house answering those questions, practicing their frameworks and their stories. The easiest way to show up to share your expertise is to have a framework that you've used with clients or customers and a story attached to every point in the framework.

Speaker A: Totally.

Speaker B: Because people remember stories.

Speaker A: Interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I have a method called the Authority arc, which is three components. It's to help people master the art of pr, is identifying how you're rare, creating and maintaining a reputation, and expanding your reach. So those three Rs, and under those three categories, there's like, three or four more things that I talk about, but I have a story connected to each one of them. And so you could be like, okay, Renee, well, tell me about, you know, being rare. What is the story about being rare? And then I say, okay, well, part of being rare is being unforgettable. How are you unforgettable? And I can go into a story about a client named Brenton Hayden. We worked with. We wrote content for him, uh, like two or three blog posts a week. Social media, pitched the media. We got a really good hook. That was something about him retiring at the age of 27. That that story was rare. That he sold his business for $30 million. That got syndicated to Yahoo Finance, Fox News, which was the leverage we needed to pitch him to be, uh, on the Steve Harvey show, of which he got his own full segment because we established him as being something rare in his industry. He was running, um, America's second largest property management company, and he retired at 27. So the story is like, oh, that is very rare. That's very interesting. People are intrigued by that. So I can go into the tactics of how to identify if you're unforgettable. You can figure it out, right? So the framework and the story. So if you're like, oh, I'm going

Speaker A: on a podcast, what was the A again? So start with me. It was.

Speaker B: So there's three. Yeah, the. So think of it as like a rainbow if you want to, or a bridge or an arc.

Speaker A: The first part, three acronyms.

Speaker B: Yeah, Rare, rare, reputation, reach. Okay, so you gotta start off with how to identify you're being rare. Like, how are you rare? You're, uh. I have actually a workbook here that I do, I do this with myself too. Um, um. How are you unforgettable? How are you unlike anybody else? Because we forget about these things. Oh, I'm an infertility coach. Great. How are you different than the 10,000 other ones out there? Is there a method and approach? Is there your program? There's something different about you. It comes down to your story, because your story is unique to yourself. When you're going through something really emotional like fertility treatments. And I'm saying this as an example because I just got off a sales coach or a sales call with a fertility coach, um, that she wants to hire me to do some priority. And when you're going through something as emotional as that, you wanna work with the person that you know like and trust.

Speaker A: All right, we're back. We had a little technical difficulty, so we're talking about being rare, the importance of it.

Speaker B: Think about like a diamond. What makes it rare is that they're not, they don't, they're not everywhere. They're hard to mine now they have lab grown diamonds, so now it's more accessible to people. So actually the idea of a diamond is becoming less rare because more people have them now. So. But people want to know what's unique about you, what's different about you and your story. And then going back to the idea of like something very emotional like going through infertility is I want to be coached by or in a program by somebody that I have a connection with. So if you have, if you are in something in uh, an industry that's very emotional like that, you need to have videos online, you need to have maybe even a brand video, maybe a YouTube channel, because people need to know, hey, do I trust that woman? And you can build that trust just by listening to them and watching them. And we have such an opportunity now with social free platforms, listeners, free platforms that you can share your expertise. And I always say, give your good shit away because people are going to think, gosh, if she's giving that away for free, imagine what I get if I pay for it. And that's how you build the next thing, which is reputation, which is about trust, which is, uh, about building standards for yourself and your organization. And then you go through that and then you go to the reach. So once people understand that you're rare, you have a great reputation, it helps to amplify your reach. And you go through that cycle again and again. You think people are sick of hearing about the same thing that you're talking about when it comes to social we only know a certain percentage of people see your stories and actually see your posts. Most people need to be reminded anyway. And when it comes to like the example of the fertility coach is like, maybe now's not the time for you, you don't need that. Maybe you have a friend or a family member going through it, but if it becomes you, that's going to be the person you remember and that's going to be the person you go to. And maybe it was a, you know, a feature in a print magazine or something online when you uh, first found that person and now you follow them on social media and now you subscribe to their podcast or their newsletter and when it's your turn to go and buy, then it's like they're the person that you're going to choose because you saw them somewhere or they were recommended by something online. That's why PR is so powerful. But you have to marry it with other platforms like video and podcasting and social and having really great content on your website. Websites are still really important. How are you capturing people's attention, how are you getting their email addresses, stuff like that. So all uh, that to say PR for me is the mother of all marketing because it is about building relationships. It's a long term play. You don't just say, hey, I have a free webinar coming up in a month, let's just turn on those ads again and go to town. It's about looking at what's happening six months in a year and a year and a half and building that momentum so that you have a really solid foundation when you look at somebody. Like I always use Gary Vaynerchuk, when his second book was launched, with all due respect, it wasn't the best book in the world. It really wasn't. He had built such a iconic reputation in the industry that the, I think he became a, uh, New York Times bestseller because he had massive reach, because he created something that was rare, he built a reputation and then he amplified his reach. So anytime he goes and sells something, it's incrementally easier because he's built that audience.

Speaker A: The rareness piece is what I think throws some people off because they're so anxious when you're starting out to try to reach everybody and appeal to everybody and you appeal to no one. I think when you do that, um, and having a bit of a niche, I think I'm glad you mentioned talking niche podcasts. You know, I view my uh, podcast started out very much as a niche around, you know, sustainable growth. Marketing, it's, it's certainly expanded way beyond that. Um, and, you know, by being a guest on it, you know, one of the things that, that it's, it was surprising for me is I think, like, I was like, six months ago, I, I. One of my podcasts just like went through the roof. It was one that I did three years ago. And, and I'm like. And it just, it trended in Japan or something, and I'm like, and I keep having these patterns now, and I think that's probably something that, you know, I'd kind of add to. What you're saying is, like, you know this when you're rare and it's interesting. You never know. Your audience may be small, but when they find you, they find you. And then once they, they'll tell other people that are just like them. And I think that is like, sometimes it's just you finding your people, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Your audience. It's like finding your voice.

Speaker B: Even fishing, right? You gotta bait the hook and throw it out there. No one hardly ever catches the big fish on the first, the first try. Or it's like casting that net. You don't know where the fish are. You can just throw in the water there and hope that that's where they are.

Speaker A: Um, well, in pr, like, I mean, isn't that a strategy where, you know, you get someone that's coming, going, well, I want to be on the COVID of Entrepreneur or something. You're like, whoa, you need to build. You need to have some building blocks, some foundational pr, I would call it, you know, either self publishing or, or smaller publications. It, like, what is your sort of roadmap that you would guide somebody to about their journey? Because that's kind of how I've always taken it, is I've kind of really staged their expectations and go crawl, walk, run, and, and don't view it as less than view it as an opportunity.

Speaker B: It's about the goal. So I had a client who was trying to get their green card in the US and one thing that helps is to get featured in notable publications. It's a credibility builder. So we called it Project Green Card. And the point was, like, how can we get them featured or mentioned in Forbes? And I'm using Forbes as like a blanket example. But notable publications, that's. That was the goal. And then there's other people who are super niche. I had a client who's in our rei, Real Estate investors something or other super niche. She was in land buying. I'm, um, like, I don't know anything about that industry. And we created her media list and it was super targeted. Specific podcasts that weren't in the top 2% in the world, but they had very specific listeners. And she got on three shows one month, garnered her $100,000 of revenue. And it wasn't the big shows. We, we fail to think that those are going to be the home runs for us when really it's those smaller shows, smaller publications that are the ones that actually help foster the community and get the people to hear about, you know, about you and buy from you.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean most people don't have a product that has that sort of mass appeal and there's just, I think it's like everything that um, you know, it's sort of pervasive in the business culture, which is bigger is always better, just like attention likes and all those things. And I, my sense is that things are going in other directions. Kind of feel like going back to the time where we were in a village, we were a small town. We, we want to talk to people we trust. We're in communities of trust. You know, I, I trust you. I. In fact, you're on Scott's podcast. You have great confidence. Puts me now inside my bubble. Your bubbles now kind of like merge a little bit, right? Like, yeah, you know, and that sort of circles of trust. And it feels like are people really buying from, from you know, large scale reach only? I mean, yeah, on volume. But for the everyday person that's really trying to create an extraordinary life for themselves using, you know, building their personal brand, I think that changing the expectation in, in and, and like what you're describing, like, wow, you did three niche publications and, and, and created that kind of sales is a real demonstration of like what I think is really not marketed well in marketing because everybody's trying to sell the template and sell 10x this and I, I think that's just a big miss.

Speaker B: It's also, if you want to tie this to sales, it also depends what you're selling because high ticket offers just work. Won't sell in volume. But if you have like the coolest new Stanley cup alternative because everyone has a Stanley cup now and you can sell on volume, then yeah, going on bigger shows might make sense, who knows. But also sometimes those bigger shows, the purpose isn't really about the sales. Most times it isn't. It's about the expertise. Like Huberman Labs. They. He has guests. Gabby Reese, I love her podcast. She has guests. People aren't going to go out and buy The. The next mug they want to learn about something that's going to help increase the quality of their life. And then by just by default, those guests become like little seeds in the brains of those people. They're like, oh, that person I remember. And you go download something. Now all of a sudden you're on their newsletter. Then eventually you're getting sold to.

Speaker A: Mhm. What's your thoughts? Or are you familiar with the word newsjacking?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what does that fit in your PR strategy with clients? And what do you think of it?

Speaker B: Yeah, so news. So newsjacking for people who don't know is essentially leveraging something that's trending in the news right now. And just to be safe about an example that we're going to use, we're going to use National Hot Dog Day as an example, because either love hot dogs or you don't, but it's a pretty neutral topic. So there's a National Hot Dog Day, I think, in June or July. So just imagine you are one of the top hot dog sellers in North America, or you've come up with a new hot dog stand or something. You're going to leverage campaigns on social, even advertising and PR that coincide with that day. Another example is like the Barbie memes that went crazy when the Barbie M Media or the Barbie movie came out. Something that's coming up for us too, is the Super Bowl. And so we're on high alert to see because, like, the Rihanna halftime show last year, there's so many memes and so many businesses that were like, newsjacking. The whole, like, Rihanna thing was amazing. So what's going to happen this year? So we're like pen and paper ready to come up with, like, social content and maybe even pitches for the media that's relevant to clients about whatever happens at the halftime performance or if there's a cool play that happens. Right now, everyone's talking about Taylor, uh, Swift and Travis Kelce. It's kind of dying out. But maybe a month ago you could have newsjacked that. So you, when you're newsjacking, you want to make sure that it's relevant, that there's some sort of connection and that it's pretty neutral in terms of, like, political, you know, emotional stance. You don't want to newsjack a war, for example, or newsjack any, like, crime that just happened. Um, um. So essentially you're like, pegging yourself to something that's happening right now. And most people. This is where PR agencies and PR experts. Experts have the Upper hand is because it's so timely, they're thinking this thing's happening now. Barbie movie theme crushed it. Okay, here are some three ideas, angles and here's who we're going to pitch. Most people don't even think about that, let alone know how to come up with the process to pitch the media. And it can.

Speaker A: So you're actually a big advocate of it is what you're saying.

Speaker B: Yeah, it but also depends on your PR goal. If it's like you're launching a book and like for instance the sales call that I was just on right now with the lady, uh, who's a fertility coach. So April is national. What did she say? National Infertility Month. And I was like great. So what is your plan right now? Even though we're late cuz it's January 30th, the time of this recording. What's your plan right now to leverage that month? She's like, well we're doing a four day whatever, like uh, webinar. Great. So like what is the angle to connect yourself with that month and why is that so important? So this is why the work back schedule is important. What's happening in your business this next six months, 12 months. Are there national holidays? Are there themes, other celebrations? Like Pride Month is huge. That happens in June. What are you doing right now to plan for your content around Pride Month if that's relevant to you? Most people are so reactive now. You look at big publications, their lead times are still three months.

Speaker A: Newsjacking. Two things. Examples to give the one newsjack was, was hey something relevant. Like um, you the example you gave fertility and it's fertility. That one's like you're actually taking advantage of energy of something that's related to your topic. I think that's one category. The other one that I think is sort of like I'm kind of curious where you sit with. And you know I've got a variety of different sort of opinions on it. But it's like if it's Barbie and I'm in. I'm a guy and I'm in social or I'm in consultant marketing, should I be jumping on that newsjack to somehow. Because that's the attention. So it's like I feel like there's a lot of people that newsjack but I'm like I don't get the connection. You're just trying to get. It's like bait and switch. A bit of a. It's, it's a bit of a weird tactic, you know for me That I kind of feel like, where's the judgment? Uh, where do you draw the line?

Speaker B: Relevant. Has to be relevant. So, uh, totally. If you can't immediately think of something that connects those things, those events that are happening to what it is that you're doing, then most other people won't be able to either. I always say if you manufacture the world's best breast pump, you're not going to pitch the guy who refurbishes like old Ford trucks for the Auto Trader magazine. There's no relevancy there, so it has to be relevant. So don't waste your time and you'll know. You go for walks, you're in the shower, you're working out. It's like, is there something. Yes. Like, it's your business, it's your product, your service. You'll know if there's a connection.

Speaker A: You know, I guess for me it's like it's a little both, right? Because on one hand, I'm a total agreement with relevancy. It's also more sustainable. It seems more congruent with your values. And then there's another part of me is like, look at the brand archetypes, right? Like there's the, the, the sage, someone who's like teaching and sharing versus the entertainer, which is like, uh, you know, or someone who's the magician trying to reveal things. So I kind of look at brands sometimes can have a little fun with it going, hey, you know what? Like our brand is, you know, ongoingly, you know, humorous, then I guess they could probably lean into parodies of things that are not related and just make it related. Um, you know what I mean? Or, or something like that. So I kind of leave, do leave room for your brand voice, like if you're consistent. But as long as your voice is consistent that way, I think if you do something weird out of the blue, I think it's just attention gap. But if it's your brand, you know, then I think, you know, because some people I see that they're, they're totally on brand by every single trend. Their whole brand is. I. We're going to insert our brand in every single trend that's about attention and that's their brand. I'm like, I get it. I don't love that. But I'm like, I still get it. It's. It works for them.

Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes there might not be a connection, but it could be something hilarious because people like to be taught or entertained, right? So there's those two factors. And if there's some Sort of entertainment factor, comedic relief in it, then obviously do it. Especially if that goes with your brand. If you're a funny person or you're a funny brand and do that. Like, I remember when Threads first came out, I was howling at the brands that were on there, bantering back and forth. Like, I think it was like Wendy's and Burger King and like, um, whoever was running Social was the best because they were just like, going back and forth. And it made Threads fun because these are competitive companies and they're just having.

Speaker A: That's called coopetition. They were working together. There's been many examples of across the street signage having a battle when really they're like, they know that it's getting attention even though they're competitors and they're just kind of working together. I. I think it's, uh. I think that's awesome, actually. I think it's super entertaining. It's. It's unexpected, it's rare. You know, it's like what you're describing, right?

Speaker B: It's like, how dare they promote each other? Yeah, I always. So David Meltzer says it best. I don't believe in competition. I believe in coopetition, but I actually believe in completion. Because how is it that somebody who is a direct competitor of mine, how can I provide enough value to them to help them? Because realizing that there's so much abundance out there, that even if I'm helping them, I know I'm going to get something, because that's what abundance is all about. So I believe in Completion. So seeing these brands on Threads, I was like, that's cool. They got me thinking about them again. Now, going back to newsjacking, it's like, don't stress it. Just look at, look at the months for the memes and the themes and look at what's happening in the news. And is there something you can do to, um, newsjack and say, there is something. People are like, how do I do this? So you look at the writers that write those publications about this. There's a lot of contributing writers out there these days. And you send them a pitch saying, hey, I see you write for this publication. And, you know, and. And the. The subject line's gotta be really kind of punny, but also to the point and short and sweet. It's the hardest thing to write in a pitch. And the pitch is like, how your product or service relates to the thing that's happening right now in the news. And let's all talk about it, right?

Speaker A: That, to me, is a little bit like the, um. And this, I think where we need to end on a little bit because you talked about podcasts and the importance of it. One of the things that, um, that happens for me is I get a pitch for guests on my podcast, multiple people a day, and 99.9% of the time, they just send me some sort of like, PR person's template, and they'll try to say something like, I love your podcast, you know, whatever. And I know it's like automated, and they, they didn't take any time to actually listen to the podcast or reference it. Um, I don't know what your experience, but like, for me, as being the person that puts people on my podcast, um, I just reject them all together. And I've had a couple people on that, actually. They wrote me a detailed example, and they're people who I would never have put on my podcast, but they put so much effort in. I'm like, I'm going to bring you on my podcast. That's awesome. And we end up having a really good podcast. And it was, to me, it was the. Because they just showed it, like, for someone that's on the other side of this, like, I received these pitches for getting people on my show. It's like the what's. It's also like, what's relevant to me and how is. And you know, people come on and they go, well, you know, uh, they want to pitch whatever they want to talk about. And I'm like, I would try to go thread and through line. Thread. Um, you know, sorry, theme and through line. You know, the theme is, you know, it's, it's. It's. It's groundswell, it's marketing and strategy. But the through line is sustainable growth and, you know, outstanding humans with sustainable ideas. Kind of my tag. So I'm looking for ideas like in pr, I'm trying to suck the best ideas that are both sustainable ideas. And so to me, I'm like, when someone can actually go, well, here's how my podcast or my. My being a guest in your short story could be tied to that. That is music to my ears. What is your sort of, um. If you can sort of rap on what is your sort of like, somebody could take away as your key strategies that you have to helping people become guests.

Speaker B: Well, you can go to wewildwomen.com and scroll down to the bottom and get a free resource and I give away, um, actual templates that we've used to get people on top shows. But nice to answer the question.

Speaker A: Yes, that wasn't planned, by the way, just so you know.

Speaker B: It was not.

Speaker A: It was not planned.

Speaker B: Okay, here's. Here's the test to make the ultimate pitch. At the end of the day, it's quite simple. But simplicity is the ultimate form of sophistication. It's also the hardest thing to do. Less is more. The pitch has to be less than 180 words. There are no attachments. There are one to two links to relevant things, which could be most of your website, and one very active social media account. And in the pitch, every single one of them is personalized. You can use a template. We do, because there are some information. Regardless, it's necessary in every pitch, but you have to say the person's name and you have to spell it right. We. We go through our list three times before we press send on a pitch. It's read, reread three times. The intro's, um, gotta be something personal. Hey, I just saw that you got back from the Disney cruise. I was just on there last month. So much fun. Did you enjoy it? Perfect. A. This person has been following me on social media and knows that I was just on a Disney cruise. So this is not an AI. This isn't a mass email. Second is going straight into what it is you're asking for. And then if it's pitching a podcast, you gotta include bullets. So bullets could be, uh, something really frigging cool about you or the person you're pitching. It could be topic ideas. Now, the warning on topic ideas is some people are like, here are five things we could talk about. The problem with doing that is now all of a sudden, you put the onus in the work on the person you're pitching to choose which is the best topic to talk about. It's kind of. It's super lazy. It's like, no, no. If you actually listen to my show like you said you did, um, and you did some research, you'd know I don't take men as guests. So you're pitching me a man, and I only talk to females. And I, uh, talk about authority building and PR and building confidence. You can look at my last 20 episodes to come up with an idea of an angle or a topic idea that we haven't really talked about before that would be relevant to the listeners. So that's why when we're working with clients, we say we're max pitching 10 a week. And even that's hard to pitch sometimes because it could take hours to develop the pitch and send it to the person. So then after You've crafted the pitch. That's when you go and write the subject line. And we've gone through 12 versions of subject lines for one form of pitch. Before we use all the tools, we use chat GPT and then we use, um, headline Analyzer, and then we use Grammarly, and then we use our team, and then we use Voxer to go back and forth. And it's a lot of work. But all that to say is sometimes a random from the heart. Small little pitch is what seals the deal. So when I was helping my husband with his book tour, we were putting him on a podcast roadshow, and we pitched the Usual Suspects. And there's this one guy named Cal Fussman. He has a relatively large podcast. Um, um, I saw. Cause I was watching him on Instagram for a couple weeks before I pitched him. I saw that he was on a health journey and he'd lost weight, and his, like, whole life has changed because of it. So Dan, my husband, who was. Who wrote the book Buy Back youk Time, he's a business owner, super successful entrepreneur. This book is great. All this stuff I could have pitched Cal on, but the paragraph pitch was, hey. And I told Cal Dan's story about going through the fluctuations of weight and weight loss. And it was so succinct and so relevant to what he was going through that I didn't even have to mention the book. And he's like, yeah, I like this guy. Connect me to him. And then before I knew it, he was booked on the show because Cal knew this was a. A very, um, customized pitch just for him. And it's like, here's the angle. I know you guys. I know you guys will have a great conversation. I don't know exactly what it'll be about, but here's the story you guys both shared. So, I mean, there are templates for pitches that work. Uh, less is more. Don't be. Don't be too fluffy. Definitely use keywords, especially if you're pitching the media. Journalists can get upwards to a thousand pitches a day. And when they're assigned a certain story, sometimes they don't go to the public to get experts. They will search in their inbox. So if you use your keywords, um, strategically, and you pitch them and you didn't hear back from them, and they have to talk to a fertility expert, it'll search their inbox, and then your email will come up, then they'll reach out.

Speaker A: That's really great advice. And by the way, that little clip you just did, that little was awesome. I'm going to take that clip and every one of the people that try to pitch me now, I'm going to get my team to send them that clip to go. This is what you need to do next time. Just, you know, that's going to be a super trending clip that I'll put on YouTube or something. So, um, we need to wrap up the show. Where can everybody follow you? They've been such an amazing guest. Thank you so much, by the way. Anyway, I want to finish with one little comment. I was talking before we jumped on was how we met. You and I met. I looked at our string in Instagram. We met in Clubhouse.

Speaker B: Oh, no way.

Speaker A: Yeah, we were chatting on Clubhouse and then we chatted on. On Instagram way back when. And, um, and then I just discovered, I think when I messaged you my voicemail that Dan, I didn't even know you guys. I. Because I wasn't like, we.

Speaker B: We.

Speaker A: We connected and then I never followed you. And then we had the. I saw your post and that was it. But I didn't know you were married to Dan. I. I've actually been following Dan and then I knew. I. He kind of came to surface. I was at Tony Robbins, um, Mastery event, and he was a speaker. He was amazing. And. And I follow him on, on. And I was like, oh, my gosh, what are the chances of. Just sort of seemed like really strange that I feel like we've known each other. Plus, we're Canadians, so.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Canadians are a different cup of tea. Um. Um, yeah, so they can go to wewildwomen.com and don't. I don't work with just women. Um, I do work with some men. Or you can follow me on Instagram at Renee Underscore Warren. So that's R E N E E Underscore. W A R R E N. Thank

Speaker A: you again so much for being a guest. Thank you for having me and for all of you listening. Thank you again for listening. If you have a, uh, voicemail you want to leave me, go to groundswell.fm, click on the mic and leave me a voicemail. Tell me what you like, what you don't like, what you want to hear more of and less of. Love to hear that. And, uh, join our community. We're now going to be. We're officially launching the community, um, here in 2024. We've been in beta for the last year. So go to groundswellinocircle. Com if you want to join the community and get a little bit more from me. Personal one to one. And last but not least, thank you and mahalo.