177 - Crispin Beale of IDX on Evidence-Led Communications

Speaker A: Foreign. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Green Book Podcast. I am so happy this morning. We're recording in the morning, um, because I have one of my favorite people in the industry on today. I'm so honored and excited to be talking to Crispin Beal today, friends. Um, he is currently the worldwide CEO of idx. And, um, it's one of the first times I'm speaking to him in this new role. You may know him from other CEO roles that he has had. He is not unfamiliar to the role. I'm going to let him introduce himself to you in full and explain what he is doing. But what an accomplished CEO he is. Um, a research pioneer. And Crispin, before I even talk too much more, I just wanna say welcome. I'm so glad you're here.

Speaker B: Thank you, Karen. It's an absolute delight to be with you. I'm huge fan of Green Book and everything you do, so thank you for talking to me.

Speaker A: Well, you've been such a partner of ours for so long. Um, I take those words truly, sincerely and authentically, so I appreciate that. Um, so, yeah, why don't you talk a little bit more about yourself? Uh, I can't imagine there's anybody in the industry who doesn't know who you are and where you've been, but kind of bring everybody up to speed a little bit on, on where you've been, your journey, and then we're going to dig into what brought you to idx. But tell them a bit about your background first.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. And I'm happy to. Well, I suppose it's not really a conventional background and I originally trained as a biologist, so I've always liked data and information and numbers. Then qualified as a chartered accountant here in the UK doing auditing, and then moved into consulting with Coopers and Lybrand as it was, then became PricewaterhouseCoopers and then went over to a big electrical retailer in the UK to head up all of their research and insights division. Um, so that was my first footprint that ended up in the sector, like so many people, almost by accident. And then I've held various roles on the client side with the big, uh, British Telecom, our big telecom operator here, and Rural Mail, our postal service, where I've done marketing roles and insight roles within those and then spent a decade running all of the data and insight and analytics, um, agencies at, uh, Chime Communications, which was great fun, and then vowed I wouldn't and vowed I was done having led an agency group for 10 years. Um, sort of said, no, no, no, I'm going consulting, I'm doing non exec and so I took on various advisory roles with for example US tech company um, mtab who specialize um, in that automotive space and they're doing a lot of stuff with AI which was meant to be ah, a short gig for a few months and six, seven years. I'm still senior advisor there because I love them, they're a great bunch some stuff. And then I ended up doing advisory work with behaviorally as well and then the CEO there convinced me to go and join um, as group president looking after all their customer and commercial and sales operations and marketing all around the world which was interesting. Um, and then I got, I got headhunted and convinced to jump ship and go and join as you said idx, uh, uh, communication solutions company which is a bit different um on the face of it but to me very, very similar in some ways in that I think there's a lot more similarity than perhaps people would think initially. So that's a whistle stop tour of my, my background I guess for those that don't know.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I love that and we're going to, we're definitely going to dig into all things idx but, but also I do want to point out that you've been, you've been very involved in um, kind of the, the, the, the insights 250. You have, you have your reach across the industry. You know a lot of people, you have met a lot of people. That's what I mean when I say you are quite well known and, and you know quite a few people too. You have, you have quite the reach and, and I wonder what that perspective gives you across the industry that you're bringing into your role.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean that's a really good point and I, I'm very lucky and uh, I um, held roles with the Mrs. I've been on the board of the Market Research Society, the UK's body for 20 years including chairing it for a while. I've been a uh, SMR country rep for nearly two decades as well. I've sat on the Fellowship board of the mrs, which is the equivalent of the Laureates Board for the Insights association where I, I also sit. We had some interesting meetings last week looking at the laureate nominations for this year and as you rightly say, insight 250. That's been going six years or so. We're just about to uh, announce our next cohort of legends and our 20, 26 winners. We do that at uh, SMR's congress in Valencia in September. Um, and all of these are a real privilege because it means I get to meet so many people and such outstanding talent all around the world, both sides of the pond, but also all continents around the world. And, um, and I love that because I think you can learn so much from things going on in different countries, in different sectors, by different people with different backgrounds. And that diversity is something that, um, you just can't get enough of in any role. And it's important here. Um, but I also think it is sad that we don't champion our industry enough. Uh, and so that's why I'm so passionate about insight250 and things like the laureates and fellows at MRS, because I think it's important we champion the real experts and geniuses that are working in our sector.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think I bring that up quite specifically because that's the context that I know of you and that many of us did know of you. And thus the announcement that you joined IDX made a lot of us take a moment and say, well, that's interesting because it wasn't just. It wasn't just that you were hired by an organization because we knew that. We knew that you could be headhunted at any moment by any organization because of your qualifications and your credibility, but it was that it was an organization that was on the, you know, peripheral of what, what we typically do and consider an insights company. And yet you're so, um, so vested and immersed in what we might consider the industry. So, so it, um, for those of us who might have talked insider scoop said, well, this is interesting. So that's the lens I wanted our audience to kind of have as we continue our conversation. So let's talk a bit about IDX.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Well, IDX have been around for a long time as well, 20, 26 years. Um, they specialize, I guess, greatly simplifying in sort of communication solutions, if you like, with helping with website builds, with aeo, uh, um, with digital twin technology, with performance marketing. So a broad range of communication solutions. Data's always been important in that, but I think there was a recognition that it was needing to become more and more important. And that was one of the reasons, I think, that I was brought in and have looked to expand the capabilities that we have in the data function. Because great communications are no good if they're not evidence based in my mind. And the days when a creative director or a marketing director could literally decide what a great advert was based on what their wife thought or a few People down the pub, something else are gone. And now the same way as I'm used to that discipline with my old hat on as an accountant and an auditor, where, you know, that sector is so very much regulated and has to be robust and there has to be the evidence to prove it. Now I think boards and others want that same proof for communications and so I think that's very, very important. Then there's the flip side of that as well in that, uh, many people around the world are doing the most amazing insights and analyzing data and coming up with that. Uh, so we have robust evidence and we had that within Mrs. We introduced that as our tagline, Evidence matters. And I think it does because you can have great community, great insights and great evidence, but if it's not communicated effectively, it's pointless. It's data sitting in an email folder or on a report on a shelf. So you have to, if you like, um, have communications evidenced and evidence communicated, which is a bit of a tweet, tagline, if you like. But I think it's so important. And so those two worlds almost colliding, tied into something I'm very passionate about and gave me that variety. And I've, I've done marketing and advertising roles in the past. I was marketing services director at uh, Royal Mail Group for a while and um, indeed when I was at university did work experience in PR companies and things. So. So for me it's um, it seemed a natural combination and not. Some people just thought, wow, this is really different. Why is Chris been leaping to it? Because the skills, your career has been built around data and intelligence and understanding. A lot of it has, but the fundamental skills of any agency, I believe are understanding the problem and what a customer needs or a client needs and then helping solve that. Uh, and I think in data and insights and in communications over recent decades that's often been forgotten and people talk about customers at our heart and customer focus, but it doesn't really happen. And so for me that passion was something that's just the same and just as important in a communication solutions or a performance marketing organization as it is in a Data and insights 1.

Speaker A: I'm, um, curious because I do want to talk about why now for IDX and the importance of this kind of shift for what they're doing. But I also want to talk about you and was it just that you have this in your background or was there something else they hooked you with? Like, why was this the right decision for you at this time? You know, what was it they, during your interviewing process. Um, how did they hook you? You know, what did they, what did they. I don't mean, I don't mean anything that's proprietary. I don't mean anything that's in your package. That is not what I'm asking you about because I know you well enough to know that you're intelligent enough that they had to hook you, um, intellectually as well. So how, how did they get you? How did they get your. How did they tap into that passion?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's it. That's a good question. Because I wasn't looking to move. I was very happy. I've always loved every single job I've ever done. And I, I'm a great believer if you throw yourself into something, you do enjoy it and get lots out. So I, I wasn't looking at all. And initially I just said, no, no, no, I, I'm, I'm busy. I've got lots of things on. I'm, I'm not interested in having any conversations. And then they convinced me to meet the chairman, Nigel, uh, Morris, a guy that's been around the comms world for, uh, many years. A really bright guy, does a lot with Google and others. And I met him and really liked him. And then as they sort of talked to me about the scale of their ambition and some of the challenges they had in a rapidly changing world as IT M Moves to AI I just thought, I can't turn it down. I love a challenge. I love rapid growth. I love a focus on customers. And when I saw that there was the opportunity here to uh, expand rapidly, to move into new technologies, to recruit more people, to grow something significantly, uh, and have the, the backing of a huge PE to do that, I just, if I don't do this, I'm always going to regret it. And that's always, I think, been my, my mindset on when to change roles and what to do do. Um, and uh, I've, it's served me well so far and, and I've been at IDX now just over a year and I, I have to say I love every minute of it and I love being back in control of my own agency group as, As a group CEO, obviously. I did that for 10 years at Chime. Um, and I do like it when the ultimate decision rests with me and my leadership team and so I can just move at real pace. I'm not having to negotiate and agree what's happening. Um, we can get on with things.

Speaker A: I want to talk about this idea that you were, you were um, talking about before the, the kind of um, the need for kind of data based database decisions and kind of fact based decisions even in, even in communications. Um, and the importance of not basing it on your wife's point of view or your husband's point of view for that matter or you know just your gut feel. Because we uh, for those of you who um, we can put it in the show notes but for those of you who don't know, I also interviewed um, Crispin and we published an article uh, talking quite a bit about this, about the idea that you know we are doing things differently right now in, in our world or we should or IDX certainly is. Um, because there are real stakes at the moment. The, the things have changed. Um, so expand a little bit about that now. Um, about, about why it's so critical that it's being done differently or it should be done differently if you are not of this mindset.

Speaker B: Yeah, well I think looking at a uh, big chunk of our business, if you like the corporate communications, investor relations, the website side of the business, you know, AI has fundamentally changed how companies are understood. You know, if you think now of investors, journalists, rating agencies, potential employees or customers, you know, all of these different audiences that need to seek information, um, now they're getting that from AI generated sources before they've ever visited a website. So ah, organizations risk losing control of their story, their all important narrative because that narrative is now being formed by machines as well as humans. And I think stories has to be optimized for that AI driven discovery if you like. So companies want to be the primary source. They need to be the primary source from which the AI systems build their understanding of the business. And because if they're not those answer engines will pull it from glass door, from competitors or God forbid from, probably not a politically correct phrase, but I'd say almost brand terrorists, you know, people that hate the brand and are writing negative things about it. But if the answer engine can't pick it up from the corporate website because they can't access the schema or the content, they will pull it from these other sources and then people have lost control of their narrative and that becomes ever more critical in a world that's full of fake news and fiction and people don't know what's true or what's not true. So we have to make sure that communications, be that websites or campaigns um, are designed for humans, but machines too, um, and I think websites and things have those two roles. You know, it needs to be at source, um, that can be read by the machines and the answer engines and also a destination that's visited by humans who want to verify those answers. So if you like, in some ways it's simple. In the machines and humans want the same thing. They want that clear content, they want the space, specific claims, they want current, up to date information be staggered. How many people are leaving stuff out there on their websites that's totally out of date or they're not telling the answer engines that this is up to date. So the answer engine doesn't uh, know if it's from 10 years ago or yesterday. And it needs most importantly coming back to my thing to be evidence based. That's what machines and the humans want to know. Is this true for machines? Is it easy to extract and interpret for humans, easy to trust and validate? So I think for idx, you know, we're not helping with websites as such in this area. You know, we're delivering narrative control. In the AI era, I think that is so important. It comes back to this. Well that is evidence based. That is my whole data and insights background. But it's now being utilized to make communications effective. And so for me, as I say it, it just seems a natural transition, um, and not moving sectors but just making sure that the comm sector is using the data and insight skills to be effective.

Speaker A: What I want to get at next is um, kind of how you're doing what you're doing because shortly after, uh, sometime within the last year you opened up a Geneva office. You now have started um, a data and insights team, uh, to kind of bring all of that in. We uh, need to talk about the decision, we need to talk about who you've hired, we need to talk about um, Lanica Daru. So let's go there and um, who by the way, um, you know, I'm sure you can share more but the, the head of data and Insights there at the center of excellence. Tell me all about that, tell all of us all about that because you're building something quite significant there.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And I think for us it was really important. You know, we've always, IDX been involved in Data and insights is part of our connected content model that we use of linking data technology, media and creative and connecting those things together with the right strategies to deliver to those multiple audiences that we touched on earlier. And we said now in the world, the changing world we live in with all the um, fake news and things we were just discussing, um, that evidence piece, that data and insight piece becomes ever more important. Um, and Geneva of course is one of the um, huge centers for commerce if you like in Europe. So many companies based there, so much going on, it's a good hub for us. So when we saw the opportunity to strengthen our data and insights offer that we've had for many years by not just saying, right, well we're going to do more in this space and we're going to make sure we deliver our clients that real expertise in evidence. Um, we're actually doing something about it. And so we're putting seven people here who we know are truly brilliant um, and specialize in this area and specializing in answer engine optimization and the other tools we've got. Um, and then we can increase our total addressable market if you like geographically by having that presence to service our uh, clients um, across Europe more effectively. And we've got locations in Helsinki and Gothenburg and we're headquartered in London but we work with clients all over Europe so having a bigger presence there is helpful. Um, and it was at the right time the right people became available and we sort of said well actually if these people are available we're going to snap them up, we're going to bring them into the fold and we're going to get them helping um, offer these solutions to our clients around the world. Which is proving to be touchwood and everything so far very, very well received by our clients and tying in with the strategy. So, so, so exciting.

Speaker A: So one of the things that you had shared is that this Geneva based team is working very closely with um, your performance marketing teams, your corporate communication teams with colleagues that you have in place. What is that collaboration looking like? Like how are they, how are they sharing um, information, how are they uh, working to serve clients together?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That's a fundamental point Karen. It really is. And this is not about creating an isolated center of excellence sort of focusing on data and insights and sort of going off doing their own thing. This is a team of people have fully integrated into our global operations. And so where last week one of our big clients in Chicago got some challenges. They needed to actually verify some data and insight style problems. We're using the team to do that. Um, and literally all around the world it's working. And then literally this week we've got a big, a big client in the medical space who's based out in Geneva who wants some help with answer engine optimization. The team are working project managing that, liaising with experts from London and Phoenix to actually deliver those solutions. And um, when we set this up we sort of said if this team is Sitting as an isolated team, we've failed. They need to be fully, fully integrated into everything we do. So they're on all the calls with key clients making sure that if there's a data need, um, be that with real individuals or synthetic audiences that they are acting as the experts to check that this is done with the rigor, the objectivity and the transparency that if you like, as three fundamental principles that all research should be based on so that we're making sure that that discipline is championed across the organization. And likewise they act as that hub to pull. We've got data scientists in London and Padodora in India and elsewhere and it's just coordinating all those efforts to make sure that the communications and things we're doing are truly evidence based.

Speaker A: I have another question and it's somewhat loaded. Um, so I want to make sure it's, I want to make sure that I, that I have the follow up and I'm going to tell you both questions at the same time so that you know what's coming. Um, all of this is stemming from the idea that, that clients under, are under kind of this tremendous pressure, right to make this, this, these decisions based on data that they're not used to making. Um, you know, they're not used to thinking about their communications in this way, having this kind of evidence based decision making for communications. And now you're offering kind of this solution. So, so tell me what that pressure feels like. Looks like, sounds like on the client side for you right now. What are you noticing, what are you perceiving and then how are you handling it? How are you, how are you, how are you kind of um, uh, addressing that, that need state that they're in.

Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Um, good question. And I'm thinking about, I can think of a real example from this week of that uh, in a client that we've worked with for many, many years, um, wants to relaunch one of their brands that they've not used for a long time. They've produced some beautiful advertising executions. Um, with, with, with helped. I would say they're beautiful. Um, our strategists and creatives have done that and the CMO at the brand that will remain nameless just said oh I really, really like this one. We should go with this one. And um, one of our colleagues challenges and says but you really like that. And the company really like that one and we really pleased you like it. We do as well. We've created it. But what do our audiences think? What do your target customers think? And say oh, well, we just, we put that out there, we see what happens. It's like, no, no, no, we should test it now. We should test all three executions with your customers, with the target customers as well, not just the general population, to see how we can make this as profitable and successful as possible. Now that for me is just good research. And if anyone came to research agency and said, well, we've got these three executions, we want to test it, they would do it. But these people don't use a research agency. They're using us as a comms agency. They've asked us to design three adverts, we've done that and they would have chosen the one that they liked and out it goes. And I'm sure it's been very successful. But evidence based that, because it may well be that a couple of tweaks could turn it from being really successful to unbelievably successful and become the category leader again overnight. Um, that is how we do it. So we're not trying to go and say, hey, we want to come and sell you some data and insights. Um, we're literally listening to what our clients are telling us, listening to the problems they have. You know, this brand isn't working. They want to relaunch it, they want to be category leader. Uh, we're producing them great creative. But then we're going to test how they most effectively do that. So we're listening to their problem. We're saying, we have a solution for this, we done it, and we now have another solution that can help make this even better. And do you want us to do that? We can introduce you to the colleagues. This person on call happens to be an expert in this. This is how we do it. We can do it really quickly so it's not going to slow stuff down. Um, and as I say, thus far, clients are like, well, fantastic. Yeah, that's a no brainer. We should be doing that, shouldn't we? That's great. Get on with it. Um, which is nice. So it's good for our business in two ways. A, because we're getting more revenues in, because we're doing some work that wasn't being done. But it's good as well because we're making sure our communication solutions are more effective and they're working better for our clients. So our clients get even better results and then they come back and ask us to do more. So it's a beautiful example of a virtuous circle that helps everyone and everyone wins.

Speaker A: You know, I'm just sitting here Thinking that, um, you've eliminated the hurdle. You know, when I used to do. When I used to do qualitative and I was often brought in on comms jacks, which I think I shared with you in the pre. Call this. You know, this is my background and I did a lot of this work. Um, and the tension in the back room was always from the. From the creatives themselves. They did not like this. They did not like their. Their thoughts, their ideas, their execution being challenged. Um, because they. They were like, don't listen to these folks. These folks, they're. They're going to. Once you see it on screen, it'll look different, or once you see it on. In print, it'll look different. You know, like they. There was resistance. But it seems to me that by. By this integration, um, by getting your teams on board with this, you are. You are taking away one of the biggest hurdles in this entire process. But maybe I'm simplifying something that is way more complex than that.

Speaker B: No, you're absolutely right. And I likewise, I sat behind the glass on, um, I dread to think how many thousands of focus groups over the years, um, often with the creatives who are, uh, determined that their ideas, uh, even when sometimes it was given to me in advance and you look at it and you think there's no way consumers are going to like that. I. I've sat for enough of these. I know. Um, and so you're then ending up with more of a mediation and political role rather than a insights or a context, but role. So I think it's important, um, and it is good because it's getting that discipline into all of our creatives as well. And we're saying, well, also, even if the client doesn't initially want to do primary research, we should be testing with synthetic audiences, which we can build now. So in real time we can test executions and things with a, uh, um, representation of the target group that the client's aiming for. And then the client can choose to either do that very quickly and cheaply with synthetic audiences, or as I'd always advocate doing a final test with real consumers and things, because there are still challenges, um, with synthetic data and things at times. Um, but it's just part of the mindset and part of the way of doing things, rather than just walking around the office and talking to 10 other creatives or 20 strategists and say, which one of these do you like best? We're actually independently and robustly using that rigor, objectivity and transparency that I talked about. Earlier to make sure it's robust. And the other challenge I've seen, because it's not new, there have always been ad agencies. You know, I remember working with MNC Saatchi and they had their own researcher and people. And you immediately then sort of say, well, is that objective if you're marking your own homework, so to speak. Speak. But for us, that's why isos and you know, we've got, the team, have already got the ISO 20252 and we have a plethora of other standards across the organization to show that we're adopting the highest possible levels of professionalism and standards. We immediately sign the team up to be company partners OF Mrs. SMR AND INSIGHTS Association. Again to say, look, we're serious. We're not just some saying while we're doing a bit of insight to charge you a bit more money to validate your comms, we're actually saying we're having a proper professional, independent setup that will have that rigor and ISO discipline to make sure that this is done to an international standard so that it is proper evidence, proper facts, not just a different version of subjectivity.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, I. Now there's two different areas where I'm going to go. So, um, as I certainly want to talk about your industry presence, um, which I appreciate, but I'm going to put that aside for a moment because, uh, it has to do with of course, how we benefited by your presence at IAX Europe. I'll go there. But I also want to talk about, um, something you've referenced twice now, which is synthetic data and digital twins. Um, because to me, uh, both times you've said it, I've been like, those are, it's, that's obviously, that's, that's the future. That's innovation. That is kind of what's, what's current and what's now and this world of AI that we're in. So you are using these innovative technologies, um, these new, um, you know, kind of new disruptions to the industry and has me wanting to understand from your point of view, from your perspective, um, you know, where you're at with innovation at IDX and how it is, how it is, um, taking shape and form within the organization.

Speaker B: No, I mean, I mean that, Karen, is a critical question. I mean, innovation is absolutely key for all organizations and that's why we'll come to, I'm sure, the, the sponsorship at the competition. But, but I'm a huge believer, uh, in embracing and adopting technologies and synthetic data, synthetic audiences, uh, are one of those things. But, and there's a huge but to this. And I, I've written for Research World and other publications about this for, uh, probably five, ten years or whatever. A long time. Because synthetic, synthetic data and things aren't really new. We talk about it as if it's a brand new thing. But even remembering, you know, I remember discussing it with Finn Robin. He used to be the, um, smart director general, a great guy. And he was talking about AC Nielsen using it back in 1980s where they were trying to extrapolate in Ireland, um, the sales of, uh, Duns stores who wouldn't participate in the AC Nielsen study, um, from competitor data. So in some ways that synthetic data is being used back in the 80s, a long time ago. Um, but I do worry that as we launch any new innovations, any new products, we have to go back to those three principles that I've referenced a couple of times about rigor, uh, objectivity and transparency. And we must stress test the new tools, any new tools against these principles. And for me, if you indulge me, I'm a passionate conservationist, environmentalist as well. I'm lucky. I live on a farm. I've run a conservation group decades. I, I try and plant trees every year. And so I, I look at, uh, the environmental side and I, I think about something that I draw a comparison with it, which, which hopefully you see where I'm going. But if you go back before I was born into the 1960s, 60s or so, there was all of a sudden this miracle fiber, uh, you know, polyester, which was going to solve all the world's problems. And you could wear clothes made out of polyester for days without it needing to be ironed. And all the rest of it. Great material, fantastic. Everyone was going to use this. And massive, massive rapid adoption. But there are unintended consequences that decades later, we're only just discovering. And every time you put these polyester clothes in a washing machine or whatever, some of the fibers would come off. They'd traveled out through the waves, down through the treatment plants, through the rivers, into the oceans. And we now have 15 million tons of microplastics sitting in our oceans. 15 million tons. And it's growing at, uh, 500,000 tons, you know, half a million tons every single year. Now we can identify that way easier. We've got the great Pacific Garbage Patch as well. But so we can see, we can now identify microplastics. Huge worries and huge risks. We've got the garbage patch, but we can extract those from the Oceans, we can deal with it, we can see them. Now, you, you can guess where I'm going. And I worry that we have potential challenges with synthetic data, um, but that they could be far worse, um, if that synthetic data gets into data lakes in an uncontrolled fashion. Because if, and I've, I've done a lot of political polling and things over the years as well. And if you're on a Friday night and there's a football game on, um, a soccer game, say, you know, and you're trying to get 18 to 24 year old men, it's like finding a needle in a haystack. So being able to extrapolate on that sample, or if you're doing sensitive healthcare research or something where there's a very few patients, but you want to get some views using some synthetic twins, whatever people, people call them, call them different things, but basically you're putting some synthetic data in some synthetic audience on that particular job. If you've got a thousand people and you've got 10 in a category of um, bits of synthetic data, absolutely fine, no problem. Really good. Speeds up the product, makes the project, makes it viable, it's fine. My challenge is that data all disappears off into the data lake and then another survey is done with another 1018-24 men and another, and another and another. And then in a year's time a marketing director says, oh, I need to find out what 18 to 24 year old men think about X, Y and Z. That fine. So they pull 18 to 24 year old men from that data lake and they analyze it and they're making decisions and drawing conclusions on a sample that they're blissfully unaware is potentially 100% synthetic data. Now it may be all right for what they're doing, but my worry, and I guess coming back to those principles, rigor, objectivity and transparency, we have to, as an industry have that transparency. And we need to start tagging this synthetic data and that needs to, I believe, come through regulation, be that from the ISOs or from the code of conduct from some of our global governing bodies to say the same way as you tag whether this is male, female, old, young, or the various criteria put in, we should tag is this synthetic data or not? And then we won't, we know what we've got. And people can make their choice. The they can either choose and say, all right, well we're using all, um, synthetic data, or they can say, well actually no, that's no good. We don't mind having 20% synthetic but we want the other, other bits real. But I do worry that we're not doing that at the moment. And we will end up with a problem we have in the oceans. But as I said at the beginning, worse in the oceans, we can identify the micro plastic and it's difficult, but we can remove them if we put our mind to it and do it. And they're starting to do something of that. But if we have no idea which data in the data lake is synthetic and which is real, we're potentially going to end up with whole data sets that we have to throw out and can't be used anymore. And that could muck up longitudinal data significantly if we don't address this now and start to tag synthetic audiences. Synthetic data. So huge, as I say, a huge fan of synthetic data. Synthetic audiences. It has a valuable role to place play. It's happening. We can't say, no, we're not doing it. That gene is out of the bottle. I actually think it's a really positive one. It's giving us lots of wishes. But we have to do it mindfully and we have to make sure the regulations there. Sorry, a bit of a soap. I feel quite passionate.

Speaker A: No, no, no, no. I mean, the reality is there's two sides to this, right? There's areas where we want to see innovation keep going because we can all benefit from it. But we also need the industry to push for that rigor and where we need guidelines and regulations. That is sort of the way of our world right now. Um, so you are not speaking a foreign language to me and I'm sure many of our audience members appreciate that. For the record, um, if you come to our Virtual AI event in September, this episode will be launching, um, in a fairly timely way. So this is predating our AI episode. I will have someone from UNESCO speaking about some of the global consequences of AI so that we are all mindful at an individual level, what's happening worldwide. Um, uh, because I think it's all important for us to understand kind of at a macro level what's happening, even though we are individuals. Um, and just kind of, uh, thought I'd let you know that Crispin, um, itself.

Speaker B: And I do. And I do. Please. I wouldn't want anyone to go away thinking that I'm not a huge fan of this, but I think it's important that we recognize the constraints and you hear people talk about the risks. I'm sure it will be in that conference of, you know, bias or lack of representativeness. It's all Western Anglophones that's going in and we need to make sure other languages and cultures are represented or quality and reliability or being ethical and transparent and the impact on decision making and regulatory and compliance risks. And I think these are all real risks but they're all addressable. We can deal with all of those things. We have to, but we just have to tag it. We have to have that transparency so that people know what they're looking at. And that's the same for all research. This is not new or different but it just feels to me like it's being missed at the moment. And if we put that one piece in place we're in a far better world and it will be resolving problems before they happen in the future.

Speaker A: Yeah, that is certainly where we are with the, with AI disruption is we are at a time of full on execution but an era of governance. We need that governance 100%. So um, I think um, those tracking where we are this is going to land quite well with them. Um, but let's go to kind of other innovation beyond just that there's other innovations happening out there and the importance of kind of innovation um, and segue into the competition also. And what um, I know you weren't able to join us personally but um, Stefan was and um, Danny was and other certainly your IDX team was there. Um, uh, tell me just kind of why, why innovation in general is critical to IDX and what the work that you're doing there and then you know why you all supported the competition. Let's kind of talk twofold there.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Well firstly an apology for not being there. I really wanted to be. I love IAX Europe. It's one of my favorite conferences around the world genuinely. I had agreed to do the keynote opening panel for uh, Ephemera the health, the health global health body. And so I had the clash and I was trying to work out if trains and things would make it work and it was just physically impossible.

Speaker A: We totally understood, we missed you but

Speaker B: we understood in the middle of the way you're off. In the beginning I thought oh it'd be fine, I can leave after a keynote at 9. But it was ah, a thing. Um, but yeah innovation is just absolutely fundamental and for us there's a degree of um, selfishness as well in that we want to see the latest innovations, we want to have access to that, that and, and you know it took me probably three, four days judging the brilliant entries. They were amazing. Um, but that was an education for me as well and seeing these early ideas Some good, some I personally didn't think was good. But understanding the thinking in the industry and what's happening is critical. And so being able to sponsor that, um, so that other people could see innovations, other people could have their innovations championed, um, is crucial to me and nice to then financially support the winners in evolving their ideas. So that for me is about selfishly us benefiting by getting new ideas and learning and thinking and being involved, but also helping ah, to champion and rise up the whole industry and support that. And Green Book have been very good at doing that over the years. Some brilliant events. And so for me it was a pleasure to sort of step in and say, well, we believe in innovation, being instrumental in everything we do at idx. Um, so we should support Green Book are trying to do that for the wider industry that we're now becoming more involved with again.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, we had again I was able to um, chat with Stefan, which was great, um, and Danny, uh, was there to uh, help to um, kind of uh, give out the award and uh, be present there as well. So it was really quite a pleasure and um, and see the finalists. So, uh, for those listening, um, uh, you know, Crispin was able to be one of the judges that reviewed, um, dozens of applicants, uh, for the competition, or competition entrance, I guess they're called, and see um, how that whittles down to the top five and then the top five pitch on stage live. Um, and what's interesting to me about that is that the judges really get to see all of them. As you were saying, Crispin, you get to see, see everything that is coming our way for that particular event and yet see all these emerging ideas and uh, you really get kind of a pulse on what the, what today's entrepreneurs are like. And I think that's one of the kind of. To me, one of the unique aspects of being the sponsor of this competition is that you just get a glimpse at all. Right, here's what today's entrepreneurs in our industry are doing. Um, how did that feel for you when you were seeing like you really get. Get a glimpse that not a lot of people in the industry get. What did that feel like for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, it was, it was special. Um, and, and valuable and um, and I guess, you know, the challenge. And as you might, my board said, well, hang on, why are we sponsoring. Is this beneficial? And now I've got a board meeting at the end of this M month and I can sit there and put my hand on my heart and say, one of the organizations that we didn't know of that we learned about there. We're now actually using to help us with a problem that one of our clients has. So real example, you know, one of the shortest finalists who shall remain nameless. We sort of said actually we, we think you could help with a problem that we have at one of our clients. Would you like to partner on this? And they're delighted to. And I mean that's great. So it's all about building the network, about championing innovation, using and seeing what happens. So, so I love it. So it is definitely, definitely a pro privilege to uh, sponsor and judge these kind of things. And goes full circle to what we were saying at the beginning about how lucky I always feel to uh, have that access to laureates in the US or fellows in the uk, um, for the Mrs. And indeed work with the Market Research Society of India or say uh, and other great thought leaders out in, in um, the African continent, you know, is that that network. And there's no. All good ideas don't just come from the US or the uk, they come from all around the world and sometimes you can take a couple of different bits and combine them to produce something really special. So that kind of knowledge and open mind I think is essential for everyone to have.

Speaker A: So I, um, think and thank you again. I'll probably thank you six more times before this episode is over. And we are, we are getting close to wrapping but um, thank you for that sponsorship. Um, I certainly know the winners appreciated it. I, I have a question for you because that's a great example of then you're able to uh, you know, kind of see uh, you know, an innovative company, you know, kind of right out the gate, you know, and be not just exposed to um, you know, a startup, but then be able to start to work with a startup. I think that's, that's a great benefit to even just being at the event, but um, but encouraging then your team to start to work with the startup, uh, and that all adds to an innovative culture at the organization. Are there other things you do in your organization, um, at this new center of excellence or at IDX in general that continue to build this innovative culture that idx, um, has had and is continuing to grow. What does a CEO do to help support this innovative culture?

Speaker B: Yeah, well there's a whole host of things and where we've got big initiatives like we're looking at, ah, AI, we create a task force and involve people from all around the business, get involved, have an AI champion in every department to see how it influences what they do, and we can do that. We also try and have really open communication. You know, we talk about communication solutions. We have to have great communications internally as well as develop them for our clients. So things like, you know, having weekly notes using those communication channels where people know what's going on around the whole organization. And I think that transparency has always been really, really important to me. I've done it, uh, for as many decades as I can remember in leadership roles. I've always made sure there's a weekly note where everyone says what's happening in their area, uh, what's going on, because people then join things up for themselves. They're like, oh, I didn't know in the US they were doing that. And I'm doing this in Scandinavia or this in Australia. And now it's like, well, okay, well, let me connect with those people. And we try and bring people together virtually and physically where we can, as often as possible so that they know each other, they can discuss ideas. And it's. They see someone's doing something, they think, oh, that could apply to my client, that could help them. And they're then comfortable to pick up the phone because it's Mandy in Chicago. You know, it's like, it's a real person rather than, well, that's a bit scary, or I don't want to talk to them. Um, and so I think that transparency and that encouragement and championing through awards and we have sort of, you know, identify heroes each month for people who are doing things that then encourages people to innovate, but also making clear that not all great ideas actually turned out to be a great idea. When you get them out there and it's then saying, well, we're gonna, we're gonna try five things and if one of them works, that's a huge success. If the other four don't, that's fine. But we have to know when to close them down and be relaxed about it and say, well, that didn't work. We've learned from it. We move on. And I was lucky. The Dickson Stores Group, the electrical retailer who, uh, were very big in the uk, that was their whole mantra. And they had some amazing concepts and ideas that became, you know, multi million pound businesses, you know, probably billion pound businesses. One of them that just came up, people scribbling an idea on the back of an envelope and saying, let's give it a go, let's see what happens. They also had loads during my time. I was lucky to head up, uh, research and insights there. So you saw the things that worked and the things that didn't, but you just say, that's great. And you only need one thing like that. And it secured the future of the company. Um, and so that transparency and encouragement for everyone to innovate, because it doesn't just come from an innovation department. You can't create innovation in a silo. You need everyone to think creatively across the whole organization and communicate effectively.

Speaker A: They are so smart to have brought you on board. Crispin, I can say that we are, we are about out of time, but I do want to ask if there's anything we didn't cover that you want to get in for the final word.

Speaker B: No, Um, I think it's just my plea that I would reiterate that. Always think in everything we do about that rigor, that objectivity, that transparency, and make sure that in whatever organization you're in, we're embracing AI and answer engine optimization. They are the future, they're happening. And those organizations that don't embrace them will be left behind and happy always to talk to anyone that wants to know more or wants help with that. But thank you for everything you do, championing it as well at Green Book. It is a appreciated.

Speaker A: Oh, um, my pleasure, Crispin. How do people find? Find out more.

Speaker B: By all means, contact me on LinkedIn or idx.in um, idx.in is the website, but I'm always happy. I'm a huge believer in the power of networks, say LinkedIn or meeting me at a Green Book event somewhere in the world and just come and chat to me, Come and talk to me. I'm always happy to talk to people, whether where I knew them when I came to the conference or not. It's good to know more people when you leave.

Speaker A: It is so good to know you and thank you so much for being here.

Speaker B: It's my pleasure. My pleasure, Karen.

Speaker A: And thank you again for your sponsorship of the competition in Europe. I hope to see you again for sure. And thank you to Emma for producing this episode for Big Bad Audio, for cleaning us up when I had to clear my throat, and to all of our listeners, I sincerely appreciate you tuning in week after week. We will see you next time on the Grim Book podcast. Have a great day, everyone. Bye bye.