174 - The Emotional Power of Convenience with Maxalan Vickers of Overtime

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Speaker B: Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Green Book Podcast. I'm Karen Lynch. Very excited to be hosting today with somebody I had the pleasure of meeting at IAX North America in Washington D.C. just a few weeks ago. I am talking with Max Lynn Vickers. He is the Senior Insights Manager at a company called Overtime. He is, um, blending problem solving in the digital media marketing space. He has a deep love of sports. So we'll talk about this company a little bit later. I'm um, up in the New York area, so if you are at all into sports, you know that we are all Knicks or all the time up here. So I'm sure he knows that and is well aware. Um, but he's also on the forefront of digital storytelling, uh, for a new generation of sports fans. So I can't wait to dig in. But first of all, let me just take a pause and say, Max Lynn, welcome to the Green Book Podcast.

Speaker A: Thank you, Karen. Thank you for having me. It's definitely a pleasure and excited to get started.

Speaker B: I am too. I am too. So why don't we just take a minute and tell, tell the audience a little bit more about you and kind of your, your role in the Insights space.

Speaker A: Of course, um, I'd like to think of myself as generally just a numbers person and a, and a problem solver, um, and also a lover of just human behavior in general. And so I think that has come together really well in my current role as Senior Insights Manager at Overtime, a very popular sports media startup, um, that focuses really heavily on Gen Z and how Gen Z loves to interact with sports and um, really make their own voices heard within sports and creating content that Gen Z would love. And so I've had the pleasure for the past seven years of um, studying this audience and learning kind of what makes them tick, what, um, gets them excited, um, and really understanding, hey, how can we take what was something on linear television and make it uh, a part of the Internet ecosystem in a way that makes Them feel seen and heard.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I love, I love it, by the way. And, and you know, when I, when I first heard of overtime, I was like, I need to check this out. Not Gen Z, right? I'm, I am, I am Gen X for those of you who don't know. Um, so I was like, what is overtime? And then I went to the website. I'm like, wait, it's Overtime tv. Like, what is this? I don't, I didn't understand it intuitively. So for those in our audience who are not even sure of what this really even is, what is this platform that we're talking about? Try to bring it to life for people.

Speaker A: Of course, um, my favorite thing to call over time is kind of a mix of espn, Netflix and Nike. But for Gen Z, um, we started out by, you know, just posting a lot of highlights on social media. Um, and we eventually kind of turned that into the operation of our own sports leagues in, um, 707, football, basketball, women's basketball, all at the high school level. Um, we also have an eight figure, um, commerce business. So we sell our own merch merchandise. Um, very, very popular. And for the Netflix side of it, um, you know, early on in the company's history and even still to this day, we created docu series on YouTube around the biggest athletes around high school sports. Because we realized that these are the celebrities of today. In the same way that, you know, when we were younger, we looked up to the movie stars, the people we saw on tv. Social media is Gen Z's tv. So the athletes are the own, are the kind of Internet stars of today. And Gen Z really wants to see, hey, what does this person do, you know, when they're not playing football or basketball? And so we built a really big following off of, off of doing those Things. We have 125 million followers across all of our social media accounts, and we generate three and a half billion views per month, uh, on social media.

Speaker B: That's cool. You know, I'm just putting together, um, you know, trends, trends in sports. You know, I'm like, even, even my favorite baseball team, you know, they're showing up, they're showing up to this. I'm sorry, I'm a Mets fan. Um, and I'm apologizing, I'm apologizing because this isn't, this isn't the best season for the Mets. But, um, even they're showing up with like, fit checks before the game and like, I'm paying attention to what they're wearing and I'm like, Look at me, like, paying attention to what they're weari as they show up to the ball field. And I'm like, that's new. That's this generation doing that to us.

Speaker A: Yes, yes. It is a world where we care about everything around the athlete as much as what the athlete does. Yeah. And so that includes what the athlete is wearing, what the athlete, you know, eats on their off days, how they train, um, who their best friends are. Um, and I think what we realized very early on is the kid, the younger, um, generation, cares about this so much because that's the human relatability side of the athletes. Not everybody can be a 6 foot 7 LeBron James, but I love that LeBron James plays golf now because I love playing golf.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I see the struggles he goes through, and I'm like, uh, that was me last week. It's fun to see someone who excels so much at one thing struggle with something else that is that, you know, you also struggle with or have an interest that is the same as yours, such as, you know, sneakers or, you know, even a TV show like Love Island.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So athletes who used to be like that, that was a very kind of aspirational. I can never be like them. Suddenly they're relatable human beings on a different level and. And they become much more accessible to people.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Super interesting way to go, Gen Z. Like, bringing that to life, you know, changing the world as they do. I love that. I love that. So, so talk to me about how Insights plays in then. Now that you have figured out the space, how that must be like a world of fun in the world of Insights.

Speaker A: It is. It's a ton of fun. And I think we get the most fun and kind of one, being a startup, we're very nimble. So we're able to try different things very quickly, fail quickly, um, or succeed quickly. I think that, um, was definitely shown kind of like when we started Overtime Elite, um, which in four months we built an arena in Atlanta. Um, and now we have our own arena where we host basketball games, we've hosted boxing events, women's basketball games. Um, and so it's been interesting to see how this audience really wants to connect kind of with our content, but also from the Insights point of view, um, when we do conduct kind of our category surveys and understand what else does the audience like outside of sports? Um, what are their favorite things to do when traveling? How are they consuming entertainment in general? Um, what are their favorite stores to shop at? Yeah, you know, who, you know, why do they have crypto wallets? A lot of things that you would never think of for this generation, because at that age we didn't have those things or those concerns. But the Internet has made everything, um, so easily accessible that, you know, they have interests that are far different than generations that came before them.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Really cool to think about. So, you know, it's, it's a fast moving industry you're in. Right. Um, and a fast moving media company you are working for. I mean, everything about it feels like speed to me. Um, it is. Right. It's just now I'm thinking of the pace of insight. I really feel like we're moving very quickly. Um, how, how does that play out for you in the world of insights? How do you, how do you trust insights in that space? What do you look for in insights? How do you define a good insight in this space when you have to move so quickly?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think in general, a good insight is just something that relieves uncertainty around, uh, data or around a behavior. Um, we want to know if something is good or bad that we're seeing. Even if it's good, it still makes you a little bit uneasy if you don't know why this is good. And so, like, I always like to say, like, hey, Mary bought three pieces yesterday. And that's kind of just a data point. But what insight tells you is Mary bought three pieces because Mary is a mom of three, she's a Knicks fan, and yesterday was the game one of the finals. She wanted her entire family to eat well and not have to think about what was for dinner.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so, like, that is kind of what we're trying to understand on a level for this next generation. And everything does move so fast when you think about trends. Um, and so that requires us to move fast as well. So we're constantly updating our data. Um, as far as doing a survey such as travel, we may do that survey, um, of our audience once every two years instead of once every three to four years, um, in the past because things changed so quickly. Um, and I think a lot of major world events have happened recently, like the pandemic, um, like just a lot of, just different things that have really just changed the generation's outlook on society and they're so influenced by one another, um, that the things they love change. And so it's really about appealing to who they are today because they could be somebody else, you know, a couple years from now.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. By the way, I just want to say, for the record, I've I've never heard it, uh, a good. In kind of described as something that relieves uncertainty. And I for sure will remember that. And I bet a lot of our audience listening will say that's actually genius. Thank you so much. Um, it is spot on. It's, you know, a lot of people have said things like it answers why or it tells us why, but, but it's the relief that you feel when that uncertainty is addressed that's really poignant to me. So, um, thank you. Well done. Well said. Um, let, let's talk. And I love the example also. Thank you. Um, it's always good to have those kind of examples of, um, of how, how an insight from your audience really, you know, really helps.

Speaker A: I, I am chock full of analogies is how my brain works.

Speaker B: I love it. I love it. No, keep, keep them coming because that also just kind of rolled off your tongue. So that's awesome. So I really want to, um, uh, you know, talk about the presentation you gave at IX North America because it was, it was unique. Um, it, it's why I wanted you back here. It was so well received. Uh, it was a unique perspective on, on, um, on a topic. And, and let me explain to those of you listening. The, the talk was called Convenience, the Architecture of Ease. And you framed convenience as kind of the love child of both empathy and accessibility. And what's interesting about it is there's positive and negative in that space. And I think that we talk a lot about convenience as, oh, we're trying to, you know, different companies offer convenience to the consumer as if, as if convenience is kind of a great end all state. And a lot of consumers talk about seeking convenience, um, as if it's a very pragmatic, um, decision. And you talk about it from a very different place. And I think that's why your talk resonated with you, with, with, with, with the humans in the audience. Um, convenience is not always talked about emotionally, and you nailed it. So, so that's why you're here. Uh, really at the heart of things is you, you, you made convenience feel differently to everybody that was paying attention. So thank you. Let's get into it. Tell us how you arrived at your definition of convenience.

Speaker A: Of course, um, I have always thought of myself as a very empathic person. Um, I believe I feel things kind of for other people. Um, and I, and I walk around life, um, looking at human behavior as what would somebody do in this situation? I always think about if I'm driving, I think about in anticipation. Oh, I See something up ahead. This car is going to move over. Let me slow down now. And so always thinking about, hey, what would this person do it and why would they do it? Um, and so it wasn't until recently that I learned about accessibility and kind of like, just like, understanding kind of what user experience is in general and thinking about, like, iPhones and thinking about how Braille is about accessibility, um, and understanding that accessibility is just, um, somebody thinking about, hey, there may be a marginalized group that we're not thinking of. How do we make this experience the same for them as it would be for anybody else, because they may have a limitation or their brain may think in a totally different way. And so if we want to ensure that they have the same experience as kind of the general population, we need to tweak things just a little bit so that they can also experience this. And I think that when I was thinking about convenience, um, I originally wanted to say, when you marry, um, empathy and accessibility. But I wanted to come across as a product of both. So I went with love child, um, good connotation, kind of the child element of it. Um, and I really do think that when you combine, you know, someone who is thinking about, hey, what would you experience in this situation? And then the accessibility perspective of how can I create, you know, that bridge, um, before you get to that bridge, how can I. How can I build that bridge so that, you know, when you do get to that point of potentially struggling, you get to it and you're like, hey, there's already a bridge here. Yeah, I can just cross it. And you feel relief. I think that is convenience. Um, and I think that convenience for a long time has been something that we thought of as unique to luxury, um, and something that was even, you know, you had to be of a certain status to have convenience. I think the rise of technology has made convenience a need across the board for everybody because we all use iPhones, we all have access to smart TVs, um, and we need to start in our products making sure that it's accessible to all and convenient for all so they can feel kind of that emotional relief, um, when they do use those products and services.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the things that you mentioned in your talk was, um, kind of the definition of empathy, I think you shared, was feeling the user's friction before they do. I think what turned. What turns, um, kind of this idea on. On its head for me, or what turned the idea of convenience on its head for me is convenience is often something of, like, saving the youth, like perceived previously in my life, uh, I, I, I was a qualitative researcher and there was a lot of people that it was like ease of use or convenience in shopping, for example, is curbside pickup. It's a convenience thing or grab and go. It's all about like saving people time or effort, almost like a laziness, almost like a judgment. And this one feeling the user's friction before they do and, and the empathy of it all is like, look, you're saving that mother time because she's exhausted. Right, exactly. Because, because she has the mental load is just too big, you know, because she's dealing with her child with the fever or something, you know, or because she, you know, took along. It was just as exhausting getting the kid, you know, to put their shoes on, to get into the car. Like she, you know, whatever it might be, like, it just changes this whole feeling of what shoes she was wearing literally and putting herself in those shoes and switching it from this other, um, grab and go feeling to something other and feeling the friction, um, before they do is such a great way of looking at it that, um, anyway, I wish you would come into my life. When I was practicing, you know, practicing as a practitioner, I, I really like, um, a different, a totally different mental space. So, you know, in your opinion and your experience, what are some, you know, some kind of forms of friction you think brands are overlooking, sort of like brands in that CPG space might be overlooking that. I just pointed out the one that

Speaker A: I come across most frequently in life is having a bad mobile experience. Um, I think that we have long done a lot of the hard things online through a laptop. I still am. If I buy a flight, it's going to be on my laptop. I'm not going to do it on my phone.

Speaker B: Yeah, facts.

Speaker A: But the next generation is they're the opposite. They're willing to do those really big things on their phone. And so, you know, for a generation like Gen Z, who is, you know, going to have their, you know, buying power increase by 26x in the next five years, it's important that we start to think of things that they use and how to optimize for them as well. And so being kind of in the Gen Z space, we've had to do a lot of things at overtime where, you know, we kind of optimize for them and we make sure that it's easy for them because then they will come and they will stay. And so if I am thinking, let's just say I'm Delta And I can't speak to Delta's mobile experience. But just to kind of use an example, if I want them to buy a flight, and I know that they're buying flights on mobile, I want to make sure that experience on mobile is as easy as it is on a computer. Um, because who knows, they may be thinking of buying a flight while they're with their friends out. They get really excited about a potential trip that they want to go on and they want to buy the flight right then. But if they can't and it's like, uh, this is not really the best experience and then they close it out, maybe they don't ever get to buying that flight because three hours later when they go get home, that feeling is kind of worn off. Yeah, um, and it's important for Gen Z and I think even for neurodivergent, um, consumers as well, because our brains move so fast because they interact with digital products all day long. Everything that they've touched for the last 15 to 20 years has been if I press a button, something happens. Um, and so if I get to something where, you know, I do three or four different things and nothing happens, I'm not going to want to do that thing anymore. It's going to give me that uncertainty. It's going to make me feel like, uh, this isn't, I'm not supposed to be doing this or it's too hard for me right now. And so I think that if we're able to kind of reduce a, um, lot of that friction, you'll start to see users engage more with the products and services. My favorite thing that I learned, um, when I was in, I was at NYU and I was in the, um, economics class in my financial engineering program, um, was how grocers put candy at the front of stores because they want to reduce the time you have to think about buying that candy before you buy it. Because if it's at the back of the store, you may see it and by the time you get to the restroom, you're like, I shouldn't have this. Um, but if it's just a spur of the moment thing, you know, you are like, you know what? I deserve that today. Grab it, scan it, go.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: That's kind of how you complete that process for somebody who, you know, just wanted to treat themselves that day. Um, and I think of, sometimes we think of things as either good or bad, when there can be good and bad in both in experiences. Um, but it's about giving users the opportunity to actually make that decision. Without, um, any hiccups that could turn them away.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about some of the examples you shared, um, of great convenience success stories because you shared a few. So I don't know which one you want to start with. Whether it's Apple Wallet, you know, luggage forwarding in Japan or Amazon Prime. Even like you go like, talk about some of these real success stories in your opinion. Because I think the audience can learn from any number of them.

Speaker A: Yes. Uh, I'll first start with Apple Pay because I think that is the thing that everybody experiences on a daily basis. The, the Apple Wallet. Um, and because there, there once was a time, you know, I'm going to date myself as well here, but like there once was a time where, you know, you had to print out concert tickets, um, and you had to make sure you had that printed out concert ticket the entire time you drove to the concert. You waited in line, um, or even when you get the concert ticket in your email and when you get to the front of that line, you have to go find it. Um, that happened to me so often, um, that I love now that you can add that ticket to your wallet and just go to the wallet and have that scan that barcode that takes away, I think that's called transactional convenience. Um, and that takes away a lot of friction in people's minds. You can apply that to flight tickets. Um, everybody's always scared of losing their boarding pass. Um, but another thing that it really, really helps me on a day to day basis is being able to pay for things with your Apple Wallet. Because I am forgetful. I have adhd, I will leave my wallet at home. And then you think, wow, I can't buy what I needed. Um, or you know, you lose your wallet on a trip and you don't want to cancel all of those cars before you get home. Maybe you're like, hey, I'll use my Apple Pay to make sure I get back home before I cancel everything. And so it's kind of giving you just a backup plan for, you know, when something goes wrong and really reducing kind of the friction of the mental load that it takes for you to remember every single thing. Because the one thing you're not going to forget is your phone.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And if we add the things that you're not going, everything that you potentially might forget if we put it on your phone, the thing that you know you need at all times, it's more likely that you are willing to get to that store and buy something because you have it or Just the process of buying it, um, without fiddling through your wallet for a debit card. Yeah, that's one thing that, um, I really love. Um, can also talk about, you know, Amazon prime and how two day shipping has really just changed our lives. So much so that we take for granted.

Speaker B: I mean, same day shipping. I ordered something this, I'm telling you this morning, 7:00am, I'm sitting, having my coffee. I ordered something because it's going to be here at 5. Maxlyn.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I was like, I can do this tonight.

Speaker A: I mean, so amazing. Uh, and that is just, that's, that's such a, like Amazon is just so great logistically that they've completely rewired our brains to, to believe that we can have something in the time we need it.

Speaker B: I want to feel bad about it, by the way. I do want to feel bad about it because I am, you know, I'm pro, you know, mom and pop shop. I'm pro, you know, sweet bookstores. Um, I really, I really do, you know, want to feel bad about it for a million reasons. And.

Speaker A: Yes. And so I think the best way to think about that is. And the part I love kind of about the convenience thing is that like when I think of Amazon prime as best for necessities, um, if I know I'll need something in two days or I need something tomorrow and I'm on my couch at midnight, those things may not be open. I can order and know that it'll be here in two days. Or when I'm holiday shopping and it's December 22nd, I can rely on getting those gifts and they'll be there by December, by Christmas Eve, so that you can put them under the tree on Christmas. Um, and what that does is I think it frees up the mental space that you have for other things like shopping at the mom and pop shops, which, you know, that takes some effort because you have to get dressed, you have to drive around, you have to, you know, have the energy to actually walk through those shops and casually browse.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so kind of back to the topic of, like when we talked about, um, you know, what convenience affords. Convenience affords you that extra mental space to go do the things you actually enjoy. Um, and so I think that is also a great segue to the last one. We'll talk about the luggage forwarding in Japan.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I went to Japan last year, the greatest experience. Because I realized that this country is like the king of convenience. Um, it's like a video game developer is working for the government. And it's like, hey, we need to think about every single step of this process so that when people come here, they remember it and they are having the greatest time and they're not stressed. And so a lot of Japanese culture is like, how can we move at ease in every part of our life? And it's part of the reason why the Japanese live the longest. Um, it's because they have passions that they can enjoy because the stressful things have been taken care of or have been approached with an air of ease around them. And so when me and my wife visited Japan last year, um, we realized that, hey, Japan has this service, um, called Yamato, where, you know, you can ship your luggage from the airport to the hotel, or you can ship your luggage from a hotel to another hotel. Um, and we were staying in three different places around Tokyo so that we could have, you know, just different experiences. We stayed in Kirakama, which is like a beach town. Uh, we stayed at Mount Fuji. Um, and then we stayed in the heart of Tokyo. And so when we were going from place to place, you know, there's always that thought of, like, what do you do in the meantime when, you know, you have to check out 11am you can't check in till 3pm These places are only an hour apart. What do you do with your luggage in that time frame? Um, and Japan was like, hey, you know, the day before, if you just come to the front desk, tell us where you're going next, we will ship your luggage for $30. And we were like, wow, like, this is unbelievable. Only $30 for the bag. And so we did it. We're like, oh, this is too good to be true. We get to the next hotel, we can't check in until 3pm but our bag is already there. The bag beats you there. And so in that time frame between when we were going through hotels, we were able to go out into Tokyo, go shopping, have nice lunches. Um, we were able to buy more things and enjoy more things because we didn't have to carry a big suitcase on the train.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, just being able to have that. Um, which Japan also has these $5 lockers within their sub bas subway stations where you can just put a book bag in for three or four hours and for $5, come back and get it later. Um, so we were very much hands free in Japan. And that is a level of convenience that, you know, it's like physical convenience, because the more you have to lug that luggage around, the more tired you get. The less you want to do the next thing that you could have enjoyed.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, now that you're not tired, you know exactly where that bag is, you're like, hey, I can actually go out and enjoy myself, have a great meal, go do some shopping, just go, you know, really just enjoy whatever Japan has to offer.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it turns out, you know, that. That's kind of when I really started to think about convenience as an emotional thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, rather than a luxury.

Speaker B: I love this so much. And. And now, you know, the. The. The strategic side of my brain is kicking in saying, okay, this is all great, theoretically. Great. How do you apply it to, you know, a company like yours, which is kind of a digital media experience? How did. How does this all translate to what you do? Um, and in that kind of fan

Speaker A: experience, I think it really starts out by understanding what audience you want to go after. And what. What is. What are. What's that audience's pain points right now? And how can you solve for that? I think very early on and over time, we understood that our audience's pain points were, hey, they didn't want to watch entire games of sports on tv. They really just wanted to see the highlights. And so we came in and we were like, hey, we're just going to give you the highlights, but we're also going to give you the highlights very fast. Um, at a speed in which, you know, they loved because they felt like, hey, this is the. I'm getting this almost immediately. I can be the first one to send this to my friends, um, and then we can all enjoy it together. Um, but I think that more importantly, what we did in the early days was, um, everybody at overtime who was kind of like, in the first 100, 150 or so just starting, the company added overtime in their Instagram name. So, like, even today, you can look on Instagram, I'm overtime Max. Um, and we would comment on every post that we would put on Instagram. And so, um, when we would post something on Instagram, the kids who follow us not only see that, hey, this is something that's really cool from a brand that I love, but also everybody who works for the brand is also as excited as I am about this in the comments, and I can respond to them, they will talk back to me. Um, it feels like they are talking to their friends in a group chat. Um, it feels like, you know, we're in the living room with them, as excited as they are about a dog that they just saw. Um, and it really established us as A brand that is a human and not a brand. Because a lot of times, a lot of times brands give you something and then they just go, um. Whereas we were a brand that's like, hey, we're gonna give you this, but we're gonna enjoy it with you, we're gonna talk with you, um, we're gonna respond to every dm, um, that you know is sent to them to the overtime account. Um, we're going to make you feel seen and going to make you feel heard. Um, and I always relate back to this. Like me growing up. I love ESPN and I would give anything to talk to Stuart Scott about a highlight, um, because I could only see him. And so when you only see somebody, you don't really feel like it's accessible. And I think that is the accessibility part, um, that we were kind of breaking down, um, was that we were providing the bridge for them to have that two way engagement that they see in everything else that they do. Um, because they've grown up with. Like I said, two way engagement. They ask for something, something happens. They press a button, something happens. If they respond to us, something happens.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's really interesting. Um, I have children. One of them is 26. Um, also a Mets fan. It's a family curse. And, uh, sometimes the games are late at night and um, he wakes up, you know, we, we talk and you know, I'm like, did you stay for the game? He has a baby, he can't stay up for the game. And he. No, but I, I checked out the highlights first thing and I'm like, you, you what? He's like, yeah, I wake up, check out the highlights. So it's an interesting behavior that I don't do that, of course, but that is a behavior of his. He's like, yeah, I'm gonna, he's gonna log into MLB and check the highlights out first thing in the morning. Duh. Like I should know. So, yes, all out. That particular behavior that his generation might enjoy doing.

Speaker A: So, um, and it saves you time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, you don't have to allocate two and a half hours of your day to something that, you know, you can get the best parts of it within 10 minutes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think that that is how society is, is kind of coming down for Gen Z itself is there are a lot of things that take a long time, but how can I get this in the shortest amount of time so that I can do other things? Yeah.

Speaker B: Which is I'm doing other things for the two and a half to three hours late at night that the game is playing. So very interesting, uh, generation.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: Um, so. So let's talk about the flip side, because I, I do want to get here because this was also, um, again, eye opening for me, kind of the dark side of convenience. When convenience becomes harmful. Um, talk to me about that or talk to the entire audience about that. What, what have you noted?

Speaker A: Yes, I think there is a. You know, while convenience is a great thing, I think they're too much of something can always turn into the opposite of what you intended it to be. Um, and I think that while convenience is a great thing, there's a such thing as too much convenience or too convenient. And I think we love convenience because it relieves us of friction. But if there's no friction at all, then that is a slippery slope. No pun intended. Um, but I think of things that I think of things like sports betting. I think of things like AI. Um, and how, like, you know, in AI, you know, it's great when you're looking for help to brainstorm an idea.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but if you're using AI to learn for you in a class, that's too convenient, you know, in the long run, you're gonna. You're. You're gonna suffer because you're not actually learning. Um, so I think it's important that we approach convenience as something that is a. Like I said, something that is a bridge. Yeah. If I see a bridge, I'm gonna expect water to be below it. Um, I'm gonna expect the bridge to be over something. If I see. If I'm driving on a road and I see a random bridge and there's nothing, I'm gonna be like, oh, something. Something's off here. Why, why, why is there just a random bridge on this road and there's nothing under it? And so I think about with sports betting, you know, like, sports betting is one of those things where, you know, originally you had to bet, you had to go to a casino. Um, so there's already a little bit of effort that you have to do into this. Um, and, uh, one of my favorite podcasters, Beaumont Jones, he talked about how sports betting is now a casino in your pocket. Um, and within three clicks, you can place a bet. And at times, that can be something that is too convenient, especially when you combine it with Apple Pay, because you don't really have that other side to show. Hey, your account is dropping. Your account is dropping. All you see is now you have 50 more dollars in your account. And so I think it's. You Know, very important for, you know, for us in general, um, to have some sort of guardrails for convenience when we do make something that is super convenient. Um, I think with social media and the infinite scroll, which I love, the tick tock algorithm. It's so amazing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: M. But. But when it goes from like, just video to video, video, video to video, and there's nothing in between, you can get lost in there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, even Netflix makes you wait five seconds between episodes, um, to give you time to think. Are you supposed to be doing something else?

Speaker B: Do I really want to watch another hour?

Speaker A: Yes. And I fall for it every time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but when there's no time in between, you get lost and you forget about things. And so I love that, you know, social media sites have installed guardrails such as, like, they remind you of how long you've been on the app, or they say you can, you can set kind of a maximum amount of time that you spend on your per day. Sports, um, betting. They let you know how long you've been on the app. Um, they always mention the betting hotline number in every single ad.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and so I think, you know, while we are creating a lot of convenience, it's important to remind, um, remind the audience or remind our consumer base. Hey there. You know, if you feel like this is getting to be too much, here are some other ways that you can kind of scale that back.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, great points, great points. Um, and I see that across categories too, when you really think about it. Um, you know, even in, in cpg, you know, if there's convenience foods. Right. That can be problematic if you, if you go too far. Um, you know, so, um, so I can totally see how it, how it applies to different categories. And I share your concerns about sports betting. Um, could be perfectly fine for something, but, but give it to somebody with addictive personality traits. Um, it could be problematic. Somebody too young could be problematic. And bring up the Apple wallet. Now I'm suddenly freaking out about something totally different. So really interesting. Talk to me about the Cognitive Tax, because that was another point in your presentation. I mean, there was so much meat in this presentation and I don't want to run out of time before we go there. So. Yes, yeah, let's talk about it. The Cognitive Tax.

Speaker A: Yes, I think the Cognitive Tax is something that just, um, you, you recognize that everybody has a finite mental and emotional capacity. Um, some people have way more, some people have less. I think that with neurodivergent consumers and, um, also Gen Z There's less because of how much we're exposed to on a daily basis and how fast our brain moves. Um, and so taking into account that that something is finite, you want to make sure that it doesn't run out. Um, and I think that it's easy for that tax, it's easy for something with too many steps to take a toll on that tax. And the thing that immediately comes to mind is when I'm filling out a job application and you upload your resume and you still have to type in your. Yeah, and that is something that like, you know, of course you want to apply that, apply to that job. But for somebody who is applying to jobs, there is, there's already a lower, you know, capacity because of how much they have to think about on a daily basis. Yeah, what am I going to do about bills this month? Um, you know, what am I going to do? You know, my kids tuition is coming up and so we'd like to believe that, you know, that would create a desperation, um, to where they would continue with that application. But in reality, you know, they may postpone that till tomorrow. Um, and then when you postpone things, you may not revisit them just because it's too much for you in that moment now. And so that's why I think it's really important for going forward, you know, in this digital age of, you know, everything, everybody having a website and an app, um, and a mobile experience, um, to make things as easy as they can be so that you can retain the people who don't have as much of a mental and emotional capacity as other people. I think that when we think about neurodivergent people making up 20% of the population, um, and Gen Z being the biggest demographic, age demographic on earth right now, um, we want to make sure that our products and services appeal to them so that, you know, a competitor doesn't do this before us and end up winning that consumer base before you do.

Speaker B: So let me ask you this because, you know, we've, we've, we've, you've brought up kind of neurodivergency and ADHD and the percentage of the population of, you know, that are, that are, um, you know, kind of either identifying this way or diagnosed even. How do brands go about kind of researching this and understanding this in the context of their own brands without, without making people feel that they're being studied or reduced to a label in this context? Because I think that's important. Um, what are your thoughts on that? Is it, is it, is it just um, trusting that statistically it'll fall out in the population or is it being deliberate and mindful about it? What do you think?

Speaker A: Um, I think it's being deliberate and mindful and I wish I had a much better answer. So this is really me speculating. Um, but I do think that when you are making a product or service, it's important to ask the people involved, um, hey, what do you think about this? And of course that's going to come with learning more about that population as well. So maybe it's seeking out a third party who already specializes in Gen Z or specialize in neurodivergent, um, consumers to ensure that, hey, does this, does this experience meet their needs? Um, or you know, if, if you do want to kind of ask, hey, do you fall into this category? You could do it in a way that makes them feel valued or celebrated.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Hey, you know, this is not, this. We aren't asking you because we believe, you know, you know, there's something wrong with you. We're asking you because, you know, you um, you know, you are a, a use case that we really need to account for going forward because we recognize that, you know, it's very, it's, it would be very valuable to us that you know, you use our product and that, you know, we want users like you. And so I think making them feel included, making um, them feel like, hey, you know, I, I'm not a burden to anyone or you know, my needs aren't too much. Um, I think that's very important when dealing with people who might have that kind of lower, um, lower, you know, emotional and mental capacity, um, or just a higher, you know, cognitive tax on whatever they have to do on a daily basis.

Speaker B: Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. Um, I really want to be mindful of time. Um, and so there's a whole lot that I'm skipping that I had hoped to talk about. But I do want to wrap with, with this one, um, question for you because I think it's important. Um, and again, if you missed this presentation, uh, at IEX North America, I'm so sorry, but you did a great job. Thank you. On your final slide, you had said, you know, don't ask people what they want, ask what would make their day to day lives easier. And so I'm going to repeat that for the Insights professionals listening. Don't ask people what they want, ask what would make their day to day lives easier. So Maxillin, if more insights teams started to ask that question, what do you imagine would change this Goes back to

Speaker A: the sedu gap that, um, a lot of different companies at IEX spoke about, um, and that, I think, is amazing. We overestimate how much we know about our own wants. Um, but it's very easy for us to speak about what makes our lives easier because it puts us in a place where we have to think about first what is making it hard. And I think it's very easy to think about what's making something hard for you, um, and then saying, hey, this will be easier, rather than coming from a place of, oh, you know, I just, you know, what do I want? Everybody wants to win the lottery, um, but really, you know, what we want is to be able to live comfortably, um, with a salary that allows us to enjoy our hobbies, um, put food on the table and, you know, take some time off of work every once in a while. And I think that when you do frame things from a perspective of what. What would make your life easier, it gives the feeling of being seen. Somebody is actually wants to know what is stressing me out on a daily basis. And I have been wanting to tell people that this thing has been making me stressful, especially if they're looking to relieve that stress. Um, because if it's stressing me, then there is probably a product out there that I'm looking for that would relieve that stress or at least hoping would come available. And so I think that by reframing things in that way, I think we do open. We open up a different part of the mind that. That is more equipped to answer, um, questions like that, rather than a superficial question like, you know, what do you want?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Really great answer. Thank you so much, so much for your time today, for your original presentation and for your recap today. I feel like I could talk to you all day and, um, and yet, I promise you, I promised you I'd wrap by the bottom of the hour, and I have, like, one minute left. Any. Any final words you want to share with the audience? You get the last word.

Speaker A: Um, I just really want to say thank you. Um, to. To you, to, you know, Mariana, to everyone who, um, to Marianne, to everyone who really had me at IEX and gave me the platform to kind of speak about these things. A lot of this are things that I think about on a daily basis. Um, and I think that I have a unique perspective being somebody who is neurodivergent, um, and has studied Gen Z for the last 70 years, um, and so happy to kind of bring this to the forefront so that other people can start to, um, look at the world a bit differently and even kind of approach their own team on teams in ways that's like, hey, maybe if we tweak something just a little bit, you know, we can make this product immensely better for an entire group of people out there who feels marginalized.

Speaker B: I love that. Thank you so much. And you are quite welcome. I hope to see you again at future events because it's just a pleasure to have you and be around you and learn from you.

Speaker A: Of course. I can't wait to come back next year. Thank you so much for this.

Speaker B: My pleasure. My pleasure. And to our audience, thank you for listening, for, uh, Emma, for producing. We so appreciate you. And to Big Bad Audio, thank you for cleaning us up. Yes, thank you. All right, we'll see you next time on the Green Book podcast. Take care, everybody.

Speaker A: Bye.

Speaker B: Bye.

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