5 Reasons Your Product Is Invisible (And What To Do Now)

Jeff Cluff: You're based in Park City, right? Correct.

Guest: Yes.

Jeff Cluff: But you're not from Park City.

Guest: No, I'm not.

Jeff Cluff: Where are you from?

Guest: So I was born and raised in Orange county in a small town called Villa park, which is near Disneyland.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: And so then lived there my whole life. Then I went to UC Santa Barbara for college, and then I moved, um, back to Orange county after college, lived in Newport Beach, Corona del Mar, and then met my husband, moved to Costa Mesa. Then we moved to North Tustin. So basically, like, I have lived everywhere in Southern California, Orange county, and I actually thought would never leave if you would have asked me. Um, but unfortunately, California just started to change, and we were like, let's see what else is out there? And at the same time, um, my husband had gotten a job offer that took us to New York. And my business has been always remote, so I'm like, well, like, you know, sometimes you got to support your partner in something. I don't think I would have picked New York. Um, but anyway, went to New York. It was a great, uh, career opportunity for him, but New York was not for us either.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And so then we, as a family, I have two kids. Right. Right now they're nine and 13. And we went on a little road trip, and we're like, where do we want to live, guys? And I was like, california's out. New York's out. And we're like, where are we going to go? So we, uh, like, played a game for, like, six months, basically figuring out where we wanted to go. And Park City won. And it won because of the outdoor lifestyle. And when I say outdoor lifestyle, it's not like you're going on walks with your dog on a leash and you're, like, grabbing coffee. It's like, our house backs up to a bike park and Round Valley. And you are hiking, you are getting dirty. It's risky stuff. You're skiing, horseback riding. All this stuff. To us, that was just, oh, this is amazing. So. And then that's where we landed.

Jeff Cluff: And how old were your kids when you were sorting through, like, where you wanted. Where they wanted to be?

Guest: Yeah. When we moved to New York, Abby was entering kindergarten. She's my youngest. So now, um, I guess that would have been second grade is when. So second and fifth.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: And. But. And at that point, then you knew that you were, like, anywhere between New York and California. But how come California was out?

Guest: Um, I'm surprised because we weren't going to go back. We had decided we were like, that was out. So We. Yeah, so we looked at. We really like the Mountain West. Sure. So we were looking at a lot of areas over there. And then Park City kind of just captured our hearts. And there are so many people from California who live in Park City. So I stumbled across people I haven't seen in forever.

Jeff Cluff: Really?

Guest: And to have that, like, instant. I was at, uh. This is a Funny Story.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So I was at a party, and it was. Was a themed party. Okay. So it was ice queens and Jack Frost.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Okay. And ice queens. I look like. I didn't do a great job with the ice queen thing. I did a better job at looking like an Avatar. So it was, like, blue and it was. I had this wig on and this whole thing. Right.

Jeff Cluff: Why not?

Guest: And I hear across the room, there's probably a hundred people at this party. And I hear cuoco, which is my maiden name.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: And I'm like, who the heck in Park City is calling me by my maiden name when I look like this, too? Right. And I turn around, and it's a friend of mine from college that I have not seen since college.

Jeff Cluff: Wow.

Guest: Which would be 20 years ago.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And he recognized me through the blue Avatar skin. So for me, that's, like, very comforting to know that, like, even though we didn't stay good friends over the last 20 years, like, just to have the familiarity with your community and things like that just kept happening.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. There's something to that. There's something really comforting I find about just, like, you don't want you to move to a new area. So I remember when I moved to Washington, D.C. uh, I spent a bunch of years in Washington, D.C. when I moved there, like, going to the grocery store and being like. Like, no one here knows me, you know? And the first time that you finally bump into someone familiar, it starts to make it feel like a community.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: And so I. I totally get that. That's. I don't know. I think that's. That's neat. Um. Yeah. That is impressive that he remembered you after all.

Guest: Uh, 20 years.

Jeff Cluff: 20 years ago.

Guest: I mean, gosh, I wish I had a picture to show right now. You would be laughing. I have no idea. It must have been my voice. Like, recognize my voice.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, I. I guess. I don't know. I mean, it was wild. I love it. So you went to UCSB before all this happened? What did you study in college?

Guest: So, ironically, even though my dad said I'd never was going to use this in my life, I got a, uh, degree in communications.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: And which it was Organizational communication. So it had negotiation, it had influence, persuasion. So basically all the things I built my entire career around. So I did use a dad.

Jeff Cluff: Uh, I. Look, I know communications degrees in the past especially, they've gotten. Some people like, will give them a bad rap, like, oh, you know, it's just a quick way out of college. But I actually think that, especially now, like, I think. Well, I've heard lots of people talk about how important soft skills are going to be, and they are, especially in the age of AI. And so I think of, uh, the value of really understanding those. Those soft skills, truly how to communicate, how to structure any type of communication, especially in a negotiation or anything else. I think those skills are becoming more and more valuable as things move on.

Guest: So I would agree with you.

Jeff Cluff: You were just ahead of your time.

Guest: Yeah, I know. Of course, I saw the foreshadowing you did.

Jeff Cluff: I was like, this is so important in 2026. It's going to change the world.

Guest: It's funny because when I. And I agree with you because in an age of AI, like, everybody's just actually desiring human connection. And my daughter will listen to me, coach my clients or advise my clients or create content or do my podcast. And, uh, she's a little sponge. And she is a better negotiator than I am right now. She me every time. And she's nine. I'm like, this is not good.

Jeff Cluff: That's a beautiful thing. That's what you want, right? You want your kid to like. Like to either. But sometimes it's ultra frustrating. I have two kiddos myself, and they, um, they're savage negotiators. Everything's on the table that they don't take anything at face value, which I really am so thankful for a few years from now when they're not negotiating with me on the daily. But right now, it's sometimes 100%.

Guest: And my husband always goes, we don't negotiate with terrorists. And I was like, nope, they're going to win this one. Both. And he gets mad at me that I taught him all that.

Jeff Cluff: That's funny. I like that line. That's a solid line.

Guest: It's a solid line.

Jeff Cluff: I like it a lot. Oh, uh, that's funny. Um, okay, so. So you end up in Salt Lake after playing this game or not? Sorry, not Salt Lake in Park City after playing this game with your. With your whole family, which. I like that you looped them into it. They were. They already kind of into the. I mean, those are big changes from going from Southern California. Were you all right? In New York? Like in Manhattan or. Where were we?

Guest: No, we were not. We were in Buffalo, New York.

Jeff Cluff: Okay, so upstate New York. Okay, got it.

Guest: Basically, yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, yeah. But those are steps. I mean, I. I don't know. I was about to say Park City is probably closer to upstate New York, but I have no idea. What?

Guest: No, uh, Buffalo is like, if you're from. If you're a New Yorker, you wouldn't even call Buffalo New York, so it's like, way out there. Um, you know, it's actually more of like a Midwest town than it is like a New York town. And for me, it was just, um. You. Like. I'm used to the big open skies of west of the Mississippi. And if you've ever spent a long time on the other side of the Mississippi.

Jeff Cluff: Ye.

Guest: Um, then you'll realize that the atmosphere actually feels a lot lower. And I was claustrophobic and I got really, really bad sad from, um, how dark it was. And I am, like, the happiest person in the world. And like, no, nothing was going to fix that. So I ended up going to Florida every three weeks to get my natural vitamins from the sun for three years. And, um, so that's what I did for three years too. Try and survive.

Jeff Cluff: I didn't think about it, but it's pretty far north.

Guest: Oh, yeah.

Jeff Cluff: And so that makes perfect sense. I mean. Yeah. And you're gonna have. Wow.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. Wow. That's. I. I would.

Guest: I.

Jeff Cluff: For whatever reason. I mean, when you, when you say it. Okay, yes, of course. Logic. It makes perfect sense. But I never would have thought about gray skies. Cold. Oh, cold. But not the gray skies part.

Guest: Yeah. And I don't mind the cold. I mean, Park City winters are lovely, like, super. But it's dry. If you go to Buffalo, it's a, uh, wet, cold winter. Winter. Like, you can feel it right through your jacket. There is no saving it. And I think in Park City, out of the almost three years we've been here. Is it three? Yeah, about three years. Um, so I guess that's two full winters then. I think there's only like two days out of all of that where I was like, whoa, that's piercing. Like, it's just such a gentler cold. Plus being right by the ski. Like the ski mountains. Like you actually have something to do instead of, like, ice skate on your driveway.

Jeff Cluff: It's true. Yes. Instead of ice skating. I like that.

Guest: Because you totally could during an ice storm in Buffalo.

Jeff Cluff: Buffalo. Oh, I can only imagine. And, um, are There are. There m. Like, they're mountains out there, too. So in. In. Right. Enough city. New York. Right. But it's not.

Guest: It's called Ellicottville is like, the most common one, but it's more of a hill than it is a mountain. And it's like ice skating. So the snow on the east coast, like, if you can ski east coast snow, you are really.

Jeff Cluff: That's true.

Guest: Because it's like ice skating on skis. Um, you never have a powder day. Like, doesn't exist.

Jeff Cluff: I'm glad you're in Park City after you finished. You say you met your husband in college or after.

Guest: No. Um, actually, we met when I lived in Corona del Mar, because my next door neighbor that I would hang out with all the time. My husband's name is Andy. Uh, he was Andy's best friend from high school.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: So we met, um, post college.

Jeff Cluff: I like it.

Guest: Yeah. Mid 20s. Ish.

Jeff Cluff: All right.

Guest: Yeah. But the irony of this is we went to rival high schools and didn't know each other. We both played water polo, which is very unique. We both went to the same tournaments in Hawaii every year, and we never cross paths.

Jeff Cluff: That is wild. Are your kids both just exceptional swimmers now too?

Guest: They are. Um, because when. Uh, both of them spent a lot of time in the pool during COVID When we were in California.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And so, you know, I think Abby was like, two or three at that point. But, I mean, she was diving to the bottom of the pool because, like, what else are you going to do all day? So we're like.

Jeff Cluff: That's a really good point. Yeah. There's nothing much to do.

Guest: So she got. She got really good, really fast. They both played a season of water polo. We'll see how that goes. But, um, you know, Abby's my rodeo girl and Owen's motocross, so, you know, not a lot of extra time for. For water polo.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. Those are both big commitments, I guess.

Guest: I mean, they are. I have dopamine. Seeking adventurous kiddos.

Jeff Cluff: That's fun. I like that. So what was your first job out of college?

Guest: So my first job out of college. I don't even think it makes it anywhere on my profile. So long ago. Um, but I worked for a company that actually worked with food brands to get them placed into Costco.

Jeff Cluff: Oh. Interest.

Guest: So we would help them with their product development for Costco and then pitch to Costco and get them in. So it was really fun, actually. It was super cool to see all of the different brands that came through and, like, the Biggest brand that I can remember that we worked with was Barenaked Granola.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, yeah, they're great.

Guest: Yeah, that's a huge one. And so, yeah, it was kind of fun. It was a great job. And we got to taste a lot of food and influence packaging and packaging strategies and positioning for Cost. Costco. And. Yeah, it was awesome.

Jeff Cluff: So it was a consulting firm. So, like, companies that, for example, like the barenaked rental that you mentioned, they would hire your firm and then you would consult them and help them do

Guest: all the development and to get into Costco.

Jeff Cluff: That makes sense. That's specific. Specific to Costco.

Guest: Yes.

Jeff Cluff: I guess that's probably a different approach than it would take to get into, I don't know, Kroger or something else. Right.

Guest: Yeah, I think that there's probably a lot of overlap, but it's also the buyers, you know, so the owner of that company had just these really solid relationships with Costco, and so that's how she decided to double down.

Jeff Cluff: That makes sense.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Uh, you know, you show up at Costco with your giant cart and everything else, and you kind of just assume that things are there. But it's interesting to. I bet, to see the back end of how.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Why things are positioned the way that they are, why they're developed in a specific way, and why they have a different type of packaging.

Guest: Yeah. And Costco, usually. You usually change your offering for Costco. So it's not like you just take what you would like. That little bag at Kroger doesn't go into Costco.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So it's very different. And it's for larger sizes. It has to be your most profitable SKUs. Like, there's a lot of things, plus you have to be able to fulfill at a very high volume, which puts a lot of smaller companies out unless they can, like, solve for that problem. So it's really interesting, and it was really fun. So I liked that job.

Jeff Cluff: I could see the communications degree aspect to especially negotiation and everything else, but there's a little bit of marketing in there. Did you kind of learn that skill as you went along, or did you. Was this something that you had already had? I don't know, just, um, an interest in or.

Guest: Yeah. So for me, I feel like marketing and sales are so intertwined, which is basically my journey to where I am today. I find it very difficult to separate the two because they impact each other. So, yes, different functions, different roles, different skill sets. But if you don't see them essentially as a combination, and if you think about It. It's like if you're playing a basketball game, like someone has to throw the ball for you to get into the hoop. Right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. So.

Guest: And if the ball's going to the opponent, you have a problem. Right. So it's the same thing with marketing and sales. And so for me, I never, uh, especially that early on in my life, I felt like if my marketing wasn't good, then I wouldn't be able to close the deal. Like, they were so interchanged. And so I focused a lot on that. And in college, um, all of my jobs were basically marketing jobs. Like, I sold marketing and sales. I sold, um, spring break trips. And I was so good at it that I even got my friends who didn't drink alcohol to go to Mexico.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: Okay, so I feel like that's just like a star on my shoulder here.

Jeff Cluff: Were you selling, like, there's a. One of those, uh, those big vacation companies or what were you selling for?

Guest: So the company is called swat, Summer Winter Action and Wonderful Southern California based company. And I sold summer, uh, summer trips, spring break trips. And then, um, for some reason, they thought it was a good idea for me to supervise the high school graduation when I was still in college. So did that.

Jeff Cluff: Why not? Why not?

Guest: You know, it was just. Yeah. So it was really fun. And then I became a club promoter, and that was my other college job. So, um, and it was just really simple things in life where I saw the marketing and the sales come together. Um, first of all, I think I'm one of the best community builders in the world. So I. You can put me anywhere, and I will bring everybody together. And that's one of my superpowers. And so when I think about all of the different things that I've done in my life, that was like a common thread is the community, the people. And so when I got this club promotion job, I, um, started on my 21st birthday, which is like. So. So I threw myself a party while it was my job.

Jeff Cluff: I like it.

Guest: And so that was a great kickoff. And then I was like, well, how do I keep everybody coming after my big birthday celebration? Right? And so there, uh, this was at UC Santa Barbara. So there was downtown Santa Barbara. That's where all the bars were. And it was about 20 minutes away is where all the college kids lived.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Okay. This is before Ubers. Dating myself. Okay. So it was expensive cabs, or somebody would drive you down, you'd leave your car there overnight, someone else would. You'd get back somehow. And then it was so complicated. Right. So there's this guy named Bill, and it was called Bill's Bus.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: And he would shuttle all night long between the college town and the bar. Super cheap. So smart, right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, it's a great little business for him.

Guest: So I went up to Bill one day and I said, bill, I'm the promoter over at Q's now, and I'd really like everybody dropped off in front of my building. And he was like, really? And I was like, yeah, how's 300 bucks sound? And he was like, okay. And I'm like, great. So secretly, for literally years, I paid Bill every time I was promoting to drop off in front of my bar. And then I was the one with. The first one with the line. Right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And, uh, if you knew me, your first drink was free.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: Um, up till a certain period of time. So then it was like urgency. It was located. So I created all of these things and I took a dead bar to, like, the hottest spot in town to the point where I was getting recruited to go do the same thing in Vegas.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And I was like, I cannot prescribe to this for my whole life. This is fun. While I was in college.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So that's my story.

Jeff Cluff: Story. That's cool. Was it hard? Did you think about it at all? You're like, man, maybe I should go to. Maybe I should make the jump and go to Vegas for a minute.

Guest: Yeah, I thought about it. But then as like when you get recruited for something like that, you spend a lot of time in Vegas. And I just saw like the lives of the promoters and I just knew that I wanted a family and I didn't want to be up till 4 o' clock in the morning. So, yeah, it was fun for college, but it wasn't going to work for me after that.

Jeff Cluff: Again, for your. You're looking it around the corner, so to speak.

Guest: I'm like, exactly.

Jeff Cluff: Um, all right. So something you said stood out to me just now. You were talking about the importance of the connection between sales and marketing. And I like the connection that you made with the basketball game. It's easy one to understand even if you never played basketball. You get it. Does that only apply for CPG types of businesses like the ones you were talking, I should say consumer packaged goods businesses like the granola that you're talking about. Does that apply to all types of businesses?

Guest: Everything okay. And, uh, B2B service, actually more than anything.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Because what happens is if somebody, let's say you have an account executive that's in charge of closing Deals. Right. And then you have your marketing team and let's just make the scenario, for example, and they do a lot of Facebook ads and Instagram ads and there's a funnel people are going through. If the promise here for marketing is different than when they talk to the account executive for closing, you're never going to have success. Or if that account executive is just really good at selling, then you're going to sell people into things where they expect differently than what will actually happen, which will then burn you on customer success. You'll have churn, bad reviews, et cetera.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: So it is incredibly mission critical to have that assist, like in basketball, regardless of the industry.

Jeff Cluff: So in this case the, the, the seller is the account executive. Like you said, closing the deal, the marketing would be then defining the offering. Is that most of that.

Guest: So like if you were to create a marketing funnel, like, I mean we've all been. Okay, so in the marketing funnel, like, let's just make up a, like, um, I'm gonna make something up for you. Let's say it's actually a company that is going to run your ads for you. So it's an advertising company running ads, right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And so they create a marketing funnel, which is a landing page that says, and let's say it says we'll get you, um, 50 clients in 90 days.

Jeff Cluff: Okay. Yeah, I'm making good hook. Yeah, sure.

Guest: Okay. And that's what it is. And it's like book your call today to see if you're a fit. Okay. Then you go through the funnel, you book the call, you get all the emails, you get the text messages, you show up for your call. Right. And you've, at this point you've invested, uh, let's say two hours of your time into this process to see if this person can help you get that 50. Right. Then you get on the call. And this happens a lot. It's not even the person who will sell you, it's somebody filtering to see if you're qualified. So it's like a BDR or an sdr, which is the most aggravating thing in the world. After you've gone through this whole funnel. Right. Where this should be my qualification. Sure. Okay. So then that happens. So now you have one person of marketing, two is the bdr. And then let's say they decide that you're qualified, then you go to the account executive for closing. So now it's like a six hour adventure.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Um, of just trying to see if you're a good fit for the offer. You get to the account executive and they say, well, yeah, you know that marketing promise is really for X, Y and Z type of businesses. And, you know, this, this, and this. Like, I don't know, we could probably get you like five.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's so exciting to support. Right.

Guest: Uh, and that happens so often. And it is by no means marketing's fault. It's by no means the account executive, the bdr. I mean, at the end of the day, the responsibility lands on the founder or the owner of, like, what messaging is happening. But typically the founder CEO is running around like a chicken with their head cut off. That's like the personality of it. Like they have so much they need to do. So if you don't have someone supervising that connection point or a leader who's responsible for making sure the messaging goes all the way through you, you just don't have the conversion rates that you want in the beginning and you don't have the lifetime value of the customers that you need.

Jeff Cluff: That makes sense. So, um, I'm thinking through this, so what, what is the. Is the answer to remove steps from the process or is it to just make sure they're more aligned or is it something totally different in the. In our hypothetical we just made up here?

Guest: Yeah. So there's a couple of things going on here. The BDR or the SDR screening, I

Jeff Cluff: think is the BDR is business development

Guest: rep, Business development rep, and then sales development rep. O. They're. Frankly, people will probably yell at me when they listen to this podcast and I'll say, they're not the same. I'm like, they're the same. Okay, like, whatever. For today's conversation, it's the same. That makes sense. So that function, um, it's typically they screen to make sure that you're qualified for something. However, if you're running a marketing funnel, the questionnaire should do that. And then sometimes they'll say, well, sometimes people lie. And I was like, for the people who don't lie, they're so frustrated that they're not talking to somebody who can actually help them on that first call. So I actually think that I'm going to say it. I think that screening call is extremely outdated and should be eliminated. It's just outdated. And what I think should happen is more on the front end to make sure the account executive is prepared and can see that person is qualified. And the very low risk of somebody lying on that form is still worth getting rid of that BDR sdr. So the, uh, the answer to your question is Yes, I would remove that. And then two is then the marketing and the account executive need to be working like that. This, it is so important. If there is a product involved, like a SaaS platform or anything like that, you better involve product too because, I mean, I can't tell you. Many times I've been at trade shows or events and I'll talk to product guys and they're like, we have no idea. Nobody ever talks to us. So we just build what we think. And once a year we all get together and there's like a list of features and it's like, oh my God, seriously? And it needs to be like this circle and there can be no disconnect or it just doesn't work or it works poorly.

Jeff Cluff: I mean, yeah, I mean, if you're building software and you're running a year behind at the end of that on your lagging features, you're just going to be way out of day.

Guest: Yeah, it's, you know, you'll get like a slack that says, hey, we need this feature updated. You know, it'll just be like impulsive versus like strategic.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And because the product guys jobs are, you know, it's beyond just like making sure there's no glitch. It's how do you get the product to be sticky? Like, how do you get people to use it? Are they coming back? Are you, how are you changing from per seat pricing into usage? Because now you're powered by AI and there's fees with that and a seller risk. Like, I mean, I could go on for days, but these are really important things.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's true. Um, so who takes over that job then? Because like you said, you just described a bunch of the key folks in a decent, easily moving startup.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Who takes it over? You hire someone new or is it. Whose job is it?

Guest: You teed me up so. Well, good. So that is why Chief Revenue Officers exist.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Okay. They come in either fractionally or full time, depending on the size of the company and the needs of the company and how much money the company has to control that loop.

Jeff Cluff: Got it. And that specifically, that's their number one focus. Is that the loop that you just described?

Guest: So a Chief Revenue Officer.

Jeff Cluff: Interesting.

Guest: So I act as a fractional chief Revenue Officer. So I like to help companies get to their first 50 million in ARR. And that's why I'm fractional, because typically they don't have enough funding to pay me what I would like as full time. Okay. So I do it fractionally. I have a very like Tight system set up for that, um, so that I can execute and have good results. A lot of people will argue fractional doesn't work, and I would argue back. You're not doing it right.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So just like anything in life.

Jeff Cluff: Just like anything. Sure.

Guest: Right. Um, there. And so anyway, the responsibility is marketing, sales, customer success. Success.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: So all the entire revenue circle.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Okay. Really, really important. Depending on the size of the company, there's different people involved in that loop. Right. Um, but most of the time, I get hired at an influx point where I'm actually creating each department, which is really, really fun for me. Um, I am now on my fifth launch of a BDR team in like, the last 18 months. And as you all heard me say, no more screening over here. They have a different function now. So they're actually AI managers, and they're not your typical, like, what they're traditionally used for. So you usually have like a two to like or three to one ratio, meaning, um, forever. Like, you can have three BDRs or SDRs and one, um, AI SDR.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, interesting.

Guest: Doing it. So there's like some combinations of it, or you could do one to one. It kind of depends on the volume. Um, but you. That's a huge part of this and it's building out all of the functions. But. But you have to really nail your marketing and your messaging first before you start building team being the reason why for that is a founder can sell ice to an Eskimo if it's their product.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Okay. So the second the founder's no longer involved in the sales process, that somebody else has to be able to sell it. Right. So you can't just sell it based on this is my founder story and my journey and just take a gamble on me. It stops working. And that's how every founder sells in the base beginning.

Jeff Cluff: Sure.

Guest: Okay. So if you don't have your messaging and your marketing figured out, then you can't generate the funnel that you need for somebody else to close it.

Jeff Cluff: That's probably not easy to pin the founder down, though, when you come in to help them get that messaging.

Guest: Very difficult. Because it's their baby. There's nothing wrong with it. It's perfect.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And you know, my famous saying is like, nice to have doesn't sell anymore. It has to be a must to have. So how are we going to make this a must have have, because nice to have don't work anymore.

Jeff Cluff: Why is that? What changed?

Guest: So, um, saturation is m. What changed. So basically what happened during COVID is everyone had a lot of free time and money and they just started creating things. Right?

Jeff Cluff: That's true.

Guest: And then you had AI. So now people who aren't even programmers or coders can create mini SaaS in like a day. Right. It's really interesting. So it's very, very noisy. And every day I get five cold emails for a product or service. And you're saturated.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Uh, right. So people will no longer prioritize their time, their energy or their money for something that's going to save them a little bit of time or would be nice to have. It's like cool. What's the impact to the bottom line? And is there no other way I can do this in house? Do I need your tool? Do I need Drew? Like that's it. Period. And if you don't have a compelling argument against that, you are a dead duck, period.

Jeff Cluff: Are you working mostly with founders or companies in the B2B space? Are you still doing any of like business to consumer stuff?

Guest: Yeah, so I have a quite a mix for like uh. So this is my 10th year in business. 10. 10? Yes, I think so. I think I'm losing Track. Okay, so 10 years and there's been an evolution over that period of time. The uh, evolution went from teaching remote selling to founders. Couldn't understand how am I going to do this without shaking a hand in the in person. Right.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So it started there. And I scaled my business in the beginning through group coaching programs and membership models. And I grew not by being viral, but by having really great affiliates. I had 40 affiliates at one point filling my programs for me, which was awesome. And it. And like I said before, building community is like my favorite um, and best skill. So I felt like these affiliates were more of like ambassadors who believed in what I was doing and it wasn't like schlepping a thing. So did that. And then when I transitioned to fractional work, I started as a fractional cso, which is chief sales officer. And then when I was a CSO for a client, they're like, you can't keep your hands out of everything. You're actually a CRO and I'm promoting you. And I was like, oh, okay, we're changing my title. So I basically happen stanced into this and it grew or when it grew organically. So then primarily up to that point it was all B2B service up to this point. Then, um, and then I started. My husband is actually um, an expert in ecom and um, uh, marketplace sales. So I saw what he was kind of doing over there. And I'm like, this is interesting. And so then over the last couple of years, I expanded into consumer, um, consumer products and also the art of local businesses selling services to consumers. So now it's a mixed bag of the B2B and B2C.

Jeff Cluff: Interesting. So you kind of made a full loop here from in person. Well, I want to talk about your affiliates, actually, your affiliate program. Let's talk about that for a second. Sure. So, uh, did you. If we're going back 10 years ago, and I'm just roughing the numbers here, but like you go back 10 years and then a couple four. So eight years ago, how did you come up with this idea that you're like, I think I want to find some affiliates to help push this around?

Guest: Well, I noticed they were all on my feed selling other people's stuff. And I was like, this is interesting. And then I did the math, did the girl math that I'm happ. That I'm actually very good at. And I was like, my cost per my, uh, my acquisition cost, running ads or doing a lot of other things is going to be really high for me to sell this, like, membership or the group coaching program. And I'm like, well, why don't I just go to people that I know of 10,000 likely candidates on their list that don't do the same thing as me? Like, uh, why wouldn't I just pay them? That sounds way easier. So it wasn't hugely strategic. It was more of like, this makes sense. Sense. Everybody else is doing it.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And it felt easier for me because my superpower is bringing people together for, like, the mission. Right. And so I felt like it would be hard for me if I was running ads or doing anything else, because I don't. I didn't know how to communicate that back then. And so through my army of people, um, I basically cut the lines of trust. So. And when you use affiliates, like, they already trust you more than if they came off an ad or any other method because someone they already trust says trust her. Right. So it just makes an easier sale. And I noticed, like, in all and like, so I probably had, um, maybe a thousand people go through courses, programs, memberships, and I have only had one person ever ask for a partial refund.

Jeff Cluff: Wow.

Guest: So, yeah. And she unfortunately was in a health crisis, so it had absolutely nothing to do with me and my services. And of course, I granted it to her.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So that was it. And so what that says is the affiliate model works really well.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. It's incredible because like, like I'm thinking about my own self as a consumer in this model. Right. So, like, I'll see something and I'll know, you know, logically, like, okay, look, I know this is a deal. This person has a, has a deal with this company.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: But for whatever reason, like, and I, I can, I know it's, you know, it's, it's only contractual. Like, it's only transactional, but like, it still carries more weight for whatever reason. I mean, I find myself getting sucked up into that all the time. And again, I can see it, acknowledge it, that, hey, I know I'm, I'm a pawn here. But also how, uh, it works.

Guest: Yeah. It's a psychological trigger.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And there it's like involuntary.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So you can't really avoid it. It's just, you're automatically going to trust it more.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. Which is wild.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: But, yeah, really, it really, really works. I feel so much better about spending my money that way. And like, again, like, my logical brain is like, look, I know what this is.

Guest: Yes.

Jeff Cluff: But I, my wallet still works the same way.

Guest: I don't know. It still works the same way. Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: That's really interesting. Okay, so the. A, um, minute ago I mentioned, I think it's high, like a little bit of full circle because you started your business working through affiliates. And something I was interested in is that it, uh, seems like you're going the opposite a little bit. You're kind of bringing the circle back to close now with was I reading about some more in person types events here? Are you moving away all the way from these Is, you know, more scalable to more like niche or.

Guest: I like a good mix, to be honest. And it's for my own pleasure in my business. Uh, for me is I love the flexibility and the ability to capture thousands of people online. Like, I love that and I love that I can do it at home and grow an amazing business. So I love that. However, I think that there's a huge amount of value you to being in person with people. And I, I'm very picky, actually, when I spend the extra time to do that, but I think it's really critical and it helps me feel really good. And then so I do these events in person. I like to see people in person because it makes me feel really good about what I'm doing and I feel like those relationships are so profound. Um, and you accelerate the relationship cycle when you're in person. And nobody can deny that. Um, I, if I think about like my 5 high paying lifetime like, uh, consulting clients, I've all shook hands with them before. $1 passed. Right. And so for me, I see a huge amount of value in that. And also from a marketing perspective and a PR perspective psychologically. See, dad, I'm using my degree psychologically. If you film yourself in person delivering value and building relationships and helping people, that is really great for your brand. And it says, it signals a few things. One, she's really real and she was not generated by AI. I'm real. Okay. Number two, it says, wow, she can fill a room in person. So that's also impressive.

Jeff Cluff: That's good point. Yeah.

Guest: Okay. And then three is they see you dynamically interacting with people just like them and it boosts your brand authority. So there are a lot of strategic reasons to do it.

Jeff Cluff: Uh, two questions. Is the audience that you're looking for when you develop like more scale online and your audience for your in person events, how are those two different? And is, is the product and offering go the goal still the same with either one?

Guest: Yeah, it's all the same.

Jeff Cluff: Interesting.

Guest: It's all the same. But I will say that, um, there's a certain avatar you will have a very hard time getting in front of unless you're in person. So anytime, like I have a wait list right now for my, for my services, like, it's, I am maxed out and everyone always like, michelle, why don't you just hire more of views? And I was like, because I m enjoy my life a lot and I don't want to scale me. So I'll scale in ways that are way more simple. I don't need to go train a bunch of fractional CROs and build this like empire and never leave my office. So to me, not fun.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Okay.

Jeff Cluff: That's important. I feel like, I think that's important to realize, like, look, another client, like, sometimes that's the goal, sometimes it's not the goal, and sometimes the goal is to keep. So I love, I love, really like that you identified that and then called it out and you're just like, no, this is not, that's not the goal for me right now.

Guest: Yeah. And I think taking on a fractional CRO is like a very what I would call intimate hire because it becomes the CEO's right hand woman or man. Okay. That is quite a difficult thing to get people to say yes to when they've never met you in person.

Jeff Cluff: It's a good point.

Guest: Okay, so, but what can happen is you, you could meet online and then meet in person. Sure. So there's the carryover. Right. And so for me, um, that was a really, really important piece of the puzzle. And if somebody only saw me online, they would probably purchase like a VIP day or like an all. They wouldn't go straight for the CRO offer because, okay, let's like, get our toes wet. Right. But if they meet you in person, they usually have zero interest in the one off. And they're just like, let's do this thing. Right. So it's a lot of dynamics. So when you're asking like the offer, like, there are different variations of what I can offer to people based on where their comfort level is, but the goal has always been to push them into the fractional CRO offer.

Jeff Cluff: So that makes sense.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Um, what is, what's the telltale that. What's the telltale that when you meet a client or a potential client or customer that maybe, um, I can't think of the right, um, um, phrase. But. Yeah, but what's essentially what's telltale that they're not ready to hire a fractional cmo.

Guest: Yeah. Fractional CRO. When they're not. Yeah, I know. It's. You know what, they're both important roles. Um, so the first thing is, is that a lot of times they're like, okay, I'm ready to scale sales. So they think chief sales officer, chief revenue officer, maybe a founding account executive, all of these different things. But the problem is, is that if you have not nailed your messaging, your, uh, marketing, all of those other pieces, you can still hire me. But the ROI is going to take longer because if we don't have that footground and it's literally just the founder going out and shaking hands and making deals, I'm essentially building a business from ground zero. Even though there could be a great product or service behind it, the business engine is not built. So I wouldn't immediately say no to that person, but it needs to very clear on expectations and roi because, you know, cash flow is so important and what I do is not inexpensive. And, uh, the last thing I want is to put too much unnecessary financial pressure on the founder. So sometimes I decline and I say, hey, you need to go do X, Y and Z and then bring me in because it's more cost effective for you. So just certain scenarios like that are really, really important. And um, yeah, so that's where I would start with that.

Jeff Cluff: I like it. Give them a punch list, say, hey, here's what you need to do.

Guest: And then, yeah, come back. Because I don't know, it's all life is full circle. Karma's full circle. And I'm like, oh, I could sell him, but it wouldn't feel good.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's the worst.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: I mean not the, the worst is just. Just not feeling good about what you did, you know.

Guest: Yeah, that's. And you know, and it's just, it's part of the game, so. Yep. Mhm.

Jeff Cluff: Um, so what is it? How do you know when they have nailed their messaging? Like is there a way to quantify that or.

Guest: Yeah, it's like you either have inbound marketing success or outbound marketing success.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: One or the other. So cold emails, texting, calling, whatever it can be. Or inbound meaning you're running ads or you're driving traffic to an opt in driving traffic to your website is kind of obsolete now. So maybe generative AI is suggesting your company.

Jeff Cluff: But yeah, it's, it's really. So when you're looking at this now, do you. That was really interesting that you said it's obsolete now. So when you look at it now, the traffic coming to the website is just. It's not even.

Guest: It is really like I will say I would hire an expert to analyze the situation. Um, I know enough to know there's a problem, but I would. And so I just want to say the number one voice in this however, um, like cloud. Cloudflare flare by example. Oh my gosh. Tongue twisting. They issued this report, um, about. And you know, they protect your website from like bots and all these things and they did this report or was like 90% decline in website visits.

Jeff Cluff: Wow.

Guest: And a lot of the times it's actually, actually just bots coming to learn about it from the AI.

Jeff Cluff: That makes sense.

Guest: So SEO is really weird right now. Like you actually need to train Gemini and you need to train ChatGPT and Claude to suggest your business when people ask for things. So that, and there's a lot of companies that are trying to do that right now. Some of them doing it well, some of them not. Um, you know, it's a. But it's a new game out there.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's really interesting because I mean even if you're not trying to. I'm thinking through this on the fly, but even if you're not trying to um, as a consumer look for something using Chat, GBT or any, any Gemini or any of those tools, like the default is that you're going to end up using them just uh, by default you're going to end up using them. And so yeah, As a seller, I guess.

Guest: Yeah. For example, like I'm. When I'm driving, I drive a Tesla and I always just chit chat with Grock about things on my mind.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: There's a button on the steering wheel. You go back and forth. It's like I have a passenger. Okay. It's really a fun game for me. Okay. So I will ask random things all of the time. Like for example, I have a horse and I was like trying to figure out the right saddle and the width and like all these things. So we were like going back and forth and then I asked Grock. I'm like, okay, well who are a few people locally here in Utah that actually sell saddles in person? Because I want to go sit on up. I'm not going to Google asking that. So whoever Grok sends kind of important.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Right. So if you think about just the consumer behavior and then it comes down to B2B services too. So I remember when I was launching my podcast, I used AI to be like, who are the best podcast producers and distributors in northern Utah? Because I wanted someone local. Because I always try to buy local. Yeah, makes me happy. So I was trying to do that and you know, if you didn't hit that list on, I was using Chat chatgpt at that point. I didn't actually go and cross reference it with just a Google. Yeah, I, uh, just went with like the list and I started researching them all. Now did I go to their website at that point? Yes. So the stat that I'm searching is not that websites are irrelevant, it is just the traffic, uh, that goes them for the discoverability is becoming irrelevant, if that makes sense.

Jeff Cluff: Yes.

Guest: So it's just a slightly different function.

Jeff Cluff: They wouldn't have made that cut for you though. I mean they could have had great Google SEO. But if they would have made the cut for you to get on your, you know, your short list, then you never would have found them fascinating. Did you end up hiring one of those companies?

Guest: I did. Nice, nice.

Jeff Cluff: Um, yeah. Okay, that's a really. In this scenario, um, the AI is the BDR sdr and our first scenario right there, the secondary filter.

Guest: Yeah, it's really interesting, um, what you can do. So one of my past clients that I helped create an AI sales agent for, and it's a lifestyle brand and they were very concerned about image of how it would come across if anyone found out that it was AI communicating. And so it's very sensitive. But they had amazing inbound leads, like 10 a day, 20 a day. It Was awesome. But the problem is, is a lot of them were coming in between the hours of like 8pm and midnight when no one was working. Right. And the reason why is because they sold to early stage founders. And so what do they do? They are only looking for things at night when they're not working. Right. So what was happening is the basic automations that were available and HubSpot. So like for example, okay, yeah, I would like to buy the thing when we book a time to talk about it. Right. Like there is that there on the thank you page. You can book the time. But what I noticed and the first thing I observed is there was such a huge fall off on that calendar. Because what happens is, well, first of all, every founder and entrepreneur I know has like 40 things going on at a time. Yeah, definitely ADHD. I've never met one that's not. So what happens is they just fall off.

Jeff Cluff: Right.

Guest: So then the next day, which is essentially 12 hours later, the BDR comes in and is like, oh, it looks like this person didn't book a time. Let me call them. Well, now they're working and you've lost your opportunity. Right. So this is silly. So what I decided to do as my first action was to create an AI sales agent via email. So if they abandon cart, um, and don't book a call within three seconds, there's an email that goes out that says, hey, Jeff, saw that you're interested in booking a call and you didn't call. Complete it. Here's some available times. Can you pick one and I'll get it booked for you. What do you think happened? Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Ah, you probably. I'm guessing that you saw the conversion turn up.

Guest: Yep.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Huge.

Jeff Cluff: Wow.

Guest: And then we could use the BDRs and the SDRs that are frankly expensive to actually do more productive work than chase somebody who didn't convert to a call. Like it's. It was so simple, right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So there's a lot of different ways that you can do this. And we solved the concern of the founder with the AI being like salesier. Weird is at the bottom it says, hey, like I'm AI because we care about getting back to you fast and we don't work till midnight. It works.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. Put a label on it, removes all of that.

Guest: Yeah. And people are like, cool. Like there was no. Yeah. So anyway, I'm really proud of that.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: And that's the. Those are the types of things we have to be thinking about.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, you're right. You're. You're absolutely right. Okay. So I'd like to. If we could know. Uh, we. This is really interesting, but to. To tell the. Your whole story, let's go back a little bit earlier, because we. We went from your first job out of college, right? Where you were working as a consultant for cpg. For CPG companies to help them get into Costco. And then we jumped a little bit forward, but you had, like, there's a big gap there, 38 steps between these two. Um, so. Yeah. Talk. Ah. Where did. After you. And we have to go through each one of them. But where did you kind of get your. I don't know. When did you start moving more into. In your. Your first sales role?

Guest: Yeah, Yeah, I left that, um, the Costco job for my first sales job.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Like, true sales job.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah. Not selling spring break.

Guest: Yeah, not selling spring break, but I was selling, um, a platform to mortgage companies and banks.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: And. But this was like, oh, my gosh, old school. I mean, I was in a cubicle with a headset.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, wow.

Guest: Had to make a certain amount of dials every day. Um, and I. At the first woman hired. And when you're the first woman hired and it's all dudes, like, it's a dynamic. And so every time I'd get a live one, which means someone picked up. Thank God, uh, they would throw a hacky sack at the back of my head to see if I could push through. I mean, a little hazy. Yeah, a little hazy.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Quite frankly, it made me stronger and smarter. And you know what? I. My husband and I, we're not very, like, sensitive people, and we make. Just. Because life is, like, don't take it so seriously. Right. So we always joke around, like, you know, are you gonna file your hur. Hurt feelings report? Because HR is receiving it. Right. So that's just kind of like, our style. And it's actually a real report. You can find it on Google. It's hysterical. Um, so anyway, I've never been very sensitive professionally, and so I kind of actually liked that environment. And I was like, all right, fine, I'll prove you right. And then guess what? I played waterhole polo. And I'm gonna backhand that hacky sack right to the back of your head when you're not even looking. Right. So it became this, like, really fun game. And I learned just, um. I learned a few things. I learned how to make 100 dials in a day and have success. Okay. It's very, very.

Jeff Cluff: There's something to that. Yeah.

Guest: I mean, it is. I also learned at that point, there was no training. So it was a very large Fortune 500 company. There was no training. And it was definitely like an episode of the Office. Like the middle manager. It's like, what are. What exactly is going on here? Right. And I'm sure he had tons he had to do to report to the vp, but it was definitely straight out of, like, an episode of the Office. And so I went to the vp and hey, like, I trained myself and I'm doing really well. And what I really love doing is training and supporting other people. Could I create a training and deliver it? I'm not asking for anything. I just want to see if I can do it. And she was like, uh, yeah, right? And I was like, cool, Sign me up. So I did it. It was a huge success. It was amazing. And then I negotiated a, uh, larger salary and I became like, part of my job was to do that in that role. And it was really satisfying to me. I'm not very good at doing one thing. Thing.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Like, and it is my greatest strength and my greatest weakness at the same time. So we can go into that a little bit. So. So I did that and then I moved on to another Fortune 500 where I was, um, quite frankly, completely unqualified for that job. And. But I was a great interviewer and I was passionate. And the woman who I worked for just saw the potential in me and took a huge risk. And I didn't know how unqualified I was for that position until day one when I walked in in my, like, mid-20s and everyone else is in their 40s, and I was like, oh, hey, guys. Right. And then I didn't realize I was given the territory of, um. And the territory I had was Southern California and Hawaii, which is, like, super cool.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: But there was only one other competitor in the space, and he had been in that industry and in that territory for like, 40 years. And we had such a small martial art market share and. But I found it thrilling. And I ended up winning the most competitive knockouts in the entire country my first year there.

Jeff Cluff: Wow.

Guest: And it was. It's still my favorite trophy. Like, this trophy probably cost the company like, $10. And I literally carry it around like it's made out of solid gold. And I'm so proud of it still to this day. It's one of my, like, it's favorite

Jeff Cluff: things still in the office. It's right there where you see it all the time.

Guest: I love that all the time. And, like, I'd be really sad if I would Rather lose my Louis Vuitton bag than that trophy. Okay, well, you can't replace it.

Jeff Cluff: It's tr.

Guest: Amazing. It's like. It's amazing. So, um, I really loved that. And then I went. And every time I left, I got recruited. I should say that. Like, I. It was. I've just been really blessed. And so I've gotten recruited out with offers that are just too good to let go.

Jeff Cluff: Sure.

Guest: And so then I went into, um, another company where I was selling, um, consulting. So that was the first time I was selling like a consulting service or an intangible. And I'm like, this is really interesting. And it's really actually super hard to sell things you can't touch, feel, or see, like a software or anything like that. When they're. When the deliverable is an outcome and not something you can touch and feel.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Becomes very difficult. And so I was calling on like the top 10 companies in the country. So I was like, Google, Facebook, Amazon, they were all the buyers for this. So it was just. It was cool. I was barely 30 years old and I was walking into the chief compliance officer of Google. Google. Like, that's.

Jeff Cluff: That's cool.

Guest: Pretty fun. And so then, um, from there I took, um, another, um, my last sales role. Uh, and I. What happened at that one was I wanted to transition into sales enablement and out of the individual contributor role. Because if you think about what I had said in the very beginning, my favorite thing was the training materials. And like, all of this. And I was great at selling, but I just, honestly, I kind of got, like, bored of it. I was like, I need another challenge and I want to do this. And, uh, so I pitched the sales enablement to this big company and quite frankly, they just didn't see the value because they were such an established big company. And their sales methodology is give every sales rep a country club membership or a golf club membership, and that is how they will sell. And that was it. And they didn't want materials. They didn't want anything to change the. And I, you know, I'm not gonna win that battle on this mega company.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And so I resigned and I went home without telling my husband. And I said, hey, I just quit my job and I'm going to start a consulting company. And he was like, eggs easy, right? And so that's how it all started, and that's how it ended. And that's. I'm still doing the same thing.

Jeff Cluff: Hat tip to your husband Andy, for, For getting, uh, you know, take taking that fairly well in stride.

Guest: Yeah, in stride. Yeah. I told him, I said, hey, if I don't have a client in the first 30, 30 days, then I'll go find another job. It's never been hard for me.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And still to this day, I could literally be done tomorrow with my business and be like, I'd like to sell for you. And I'd have a job that it's multiple, six figures, even greater within two days.

Jeff Cluff: I believe it.

Guest: Yeah, it's, you know, if you're good at selling, you are always employable.

Jeff Cluff: That's true. Yeah. Good sellers are.

Guest: Yes, it's a skill.

Jeff Cluff: Um, something. This is early in your story, but something that stood out to me was about your negotiation. After you develop. Develop the training manual.

Guest: Uhhuh. Uh-huh.

Jeff Cluff: Um, was that like, did you. So when you had the conversation with your boss, you said, hey, I want to develop this training, did you. Was it already part of your plan, hey, this works. That I'm gonna negotiate for more? Or how did that.

Guest: Yeah, it was always part of my plan. But, you know, I was so young and so new, I had no, like, credentials to prove I could do this right. That I'm like, well, the fastest way for me to get the result I want is just do the work work, let it speak for itself and then negotiate.

Jeff Cluff: Looking back on your negotiation, would you handle the negotiation the same way going back now? Really?

Guest: I wouldn't change a thing.

Jeff Cluff: So it worked out well. Mhm.

Guest: Um, it was so good. And it was natural.

Jeff Cluff: Do you want to. Can you tell the story?

Guest: Well, it was just natural. You know, it was, um, back then, it was very few women in revenue and sales roles. And it happened to be a VP of sales, was a woman. And. And I kind of feel like we were just reading each other's minds. And during this conversation, she saw the value, I saw the value. And you know, we play a little bit of games back and forth, but at the end of the day, it just, it felt natural for me to fill that role. And I had proved everything and there was no gray area. And, you know, so she said yes. And then, you know, three months later, um, I have another organization trying to pull me out and negotiate. And I just went up to her and I'm like, like, hey, like, this happens to me every single time. And I actually really like it here. But, like, how do I say no to that? Like. And I looked at her and said, give me advice. What would you do? You're 20 years older than me. And she was like, I'm Just going to match that offer and go back to your desk. And I was like, okay, so then I basically got two raises in like a six month period of time. And, uh, so I. And if you hear what I said, like, that's not some kind of, like, wheeling and dealing, hip throwing, you know, negotiation. And the thing you have to remember about negotiation is you have to meet people where they're at and be honest in the transition, knowing what it is that you want at the end. And quite frankly, I was so young at that point, I didn't know if I was going to go take that job or stay. Like, I actually didn't know. So it was an honest question that I asked somebody that I respected.

Jeff Cluff: I think there's something to that. You know, just being authentic, meeting them where they are. And then you also gave her the opportunity to meet you or you were, because you're like, hey, look, hey, this is what I'm looking at. And, you know, I'm trying to advance my career. What do you think I should do? And, yeah, makes it easy.

Guest: Made it easy.

Jeff Cluff: Um, have you treated most of your career progression in a similar fashion, where you've kind of figured it out, or have you had mentors along the way that have helped you?

Guest: That's a really good question. There's been a few people that have been helpful along the way, but I have actually never had a mentor.

Jeff Cluff: Never? Never, not never a form. Mentors. I'm rephrasing what you just said. There are people that you've looked to and asked questions and gotten help along the way. Not that you've never had help, but.

Guest: Or have done favors for me, like getting me an interview I wanted or an introduction or, you know, something like that. But I have never had a mentor.

Jeff Cluff: But you've been a mentor a bunch of times.

Guest: Yes. Isn't that funny?

Jeff Cluff: Tell me about that. Is it. Is that intentional that you're like, I wish I would have had this, or is it just okay?

Guest: Um, and so this is the problem with being capable and being obviously Curse

Jeff Cluff: of being obviously capable. This is the title of the podcast. I just decided. The curse of being obviously capable is

Guest: people don't think that you need help in the same way that other people.

Jeff Cluff: I can see that.

Guest: M. So they. They don't. It doesn't even cross their mind to be like, you know, Michelle, I see what you're trying to do. I think you need to, like, take a pivot or do this. Like, are you interested in just hearing me out? Because I just want to help You. I've done that a million times to people paid and not paid. And not one once has anyone ever said that to me ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Wow. And, um, yeah. So I think that I, I still to this day would love one. Um, but that's just, I've never, it's never crossed as an opportunity for me. But for me, I get incredible joy out of helping people see what they don't see and helping them take steps to something next. So I am not the strategist that gives you a playbook. Right. Because that doesn't work. Um, everything. If you have a great strategy, that's fine. But if you don't know how to execute and be held accountable, then it doesn't matter what's in that strategy. Right. So I think people enjoy working with me from just a friendship standpoint or like a free mentor or paid client is because like holding you accountable to the steps that I know move the businesses is a huge one. And then. But I'm also not like growth at all, all costs. It's not my personality. So, you know, it's like, uh, a. You got to find the right person to mentor you. And I'm not a growth at all cost person.

Jeff Cluff: When you talked about holding, uh, people accountable in this scenario, I'm thinking of where you're hired and you're working with the founder, the CEO of the company. Do you ever find that, that, do you ever find a pushback when you're asking to hold someone accountable in their own business?

Guest: Yeah. Why do you think my podcast and brand is called revenue rascals? Because I have been called a rascal more times than I could say.

Jeff Cluff: It's probably a friend friendly way of rephrasing what you've been called plenty of times. Right.

Guest: 100%. And I mean, I can't even tell you how many times I've been closed door with a founder or CEO and we've just had it out. But I will tell you that after you have it out, there is a new level of respect that goes both ways.

Jeff Cluff: Sure.

Guest: Because most people think that successful people don't want pushback, they don't want to be challenged. They're type A. They always want to be in control. And, and yeah, only when you're incapable, if you're capable. They want pushback, they want to learn from you. Like the smartest people in the room only get there because they're always improving and they cannot always improve without that push. And so I love challenging a founder or a CEO, like love it. I Love saying no. I love saying, let's rethink that. Did you think about X, Y and Z? Hey, I see what you're trying to do, but this is actually what's happening to your team. And for me, that's actually one of the most fun parts.

Jeff Cluff: So what's your general approach when you, when you have to tell?

Guest: Um, Radical candor.

Jeff Cluff: That's it, huh?

Guest: Uh, yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Knows the book Radical Candidate Candor. You've read. You're a big fan of that by Kim Cattrallson. I read it recently. Great book, Great book.

Guest: And I frankly didn't know it existed. And then, um, maybe three clients ago, someone's like, wow, you've really nailed that Radical candor. And I was like, the what? And so then I went and read the book and I was like, oh, well, I am Radical candor.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, she makes a great point in there, in that. I mean, it really. You're really not doing anybody a favor by avoiding the hard conversations. Right?

Guest: I mean, but I will tell you one thing, I would add to that strategy. Um, you do not have permission for radical candor until you build trust and rapport. So. And she may say that in there, but it doesn't stand out to me as like a rememberable part of the book. And so that's why radical candor sometimes backfires or you're uncomfortable with it. You can't execute on it. Um, and especially with our little gen

Jeff Cluff: zers coming up, you know, something you mentioned, as I'm thinking through the book, I don't remember perfectly, but what I, what I remember is the most of the scenarios that I believe she describes are like top down leadership where she's working with her team and you're in a different situation where you're either on equal or managing up. Um, so how do you know when you. So when you're in a leadership position, obviously there's a built in trust. Trust and. Or there's a little bit of built in respect or authority. How do you know when you establish that trust authority with your client or customer?

Guest: That's a really great question. And I have to say it's great questions. Yeah, you know, it's a really great question. Um, it's my intuition. I wish I had a finite great answer for that. But I can just tell when I have reached the point of where it will be received. Well, if I take that direct approach, um, it takes like, I guess if I was trying to analyze. It takes a few, few moments, um, where there could potentially be conflict for you to resolve it with that person quickly and you're like, okay, like, that's working, right? Or you have a win and so people respect you more. Like, there's a lot of, like, little scenarios that you just have to be paying attention to. Um, but most of the time, if you feel like you're there, you're there, as long as you authentically deliver the feedback and you don't make it awkward. The other thing is, the worst thing I think you can do is send an email on a radical cander conversation. Like, uh, that structure. Because a lot of people are keyboard warriors out there, and my biggest pet peeve in the world is the keyboard warriors. So I don't, I don't tolerate it. Um, so if somebody's going to send me something abrasive via email, I don't respond and I walk into their office or I'll call them them or whatever it is. Um, even when it comes to a client relationship, if anything comes across my desk where I'm like, hm, that was inappropriate, then I will call or handle it, um, accordingly. I remember when I was selling tax software and that was the scenario with the gentleman who was in the, um, territory for like, 40 years. And, uh, there is this big fish that was like, yes, I'm moving over to you. I will never forget this. I was working it for months, okay? Finally got it across the table and he's like, come back on Monday and I'll sign the contract. Because this was before Docusign. It was all physical paper. Like, so funny if you think about it, right? And, um, so anyway, I'm like all excited over the weekend and Sunday afternoon I sit down to check emails and, um, I think it was like having a beer or something. I was like, oh, tomorrow, Feeling good. So great, right? And I, I get an email from that says, hey, Michelle, I've changed my mind and I've decided to stay with the incumbent. And I was like, huh, huh. So this is where the power of choosing to respond and not to react is critical in success. So I'm like, well, I'm not responding to that, right? So I'm going with my regular plan, which is, we're closing on Monday. So what did I do? I went to Starbucks. I grabbed his favorite drink like I always do for these meetings, and I marched right into his office. I said hello to the receptionist. She knew me. She didn't know that email got sent Sunday afternoon. And I walked right into his office and I sat down with the coffee and I said, what did Dave tell you? And I Looked him straight in the eyes and he was like, like, deep breath. He's like, oh my God. Right? I was like, listen, if there is a compelling reason, price, product, service, anything, preference, I will walk out of here.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: But if this is you just afraid of change, I'm not going to let you do that because xyz, why you need this? And he goes, man, you're really good. And he's like, where's the contract? And I slid it over, he signed it and I left.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: And so that was, that's a great example of full circle of not reacting, responding, choosing your words, being direct. Direct and being okay with what the answer is.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And I think that's part of being direct with people. People are terrified of what the reaction or what people are going to say. And I guess I have zero fear of that. I'm like, you can say no, you can say go pound sand.

Jeff Cluff: Like yeah.

Guest: You can tell me my, you know, hair color's ugly, it doesn't really matter.

Jeff Cluff: But uh, I like that because I mean in that moment, like worst case scenario already happened.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: You know, you don't have anything to be afraid of. So let's might as well, if we can have a conversation and see if we can sort this out. Sounds like it was the better choice for the customer anyway.

Guest: It was, it was so obvious. There was no compelling reason not to switch.

Jeff Cluff: Wow, that's a gutsy move. I respect it. Worked out.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: How would you have handled that if, um, how would you have handled that in a remote situation?

Guest: Yeah. So, you know, I think that makes it sticky. Right. Because now you have to get them to actually pick up the phone or take a meeting or do whatever it is. So I think you can have. Unless you can get them. I would have to think of a creative way to get on the phone, um, to have that same conversation. So I would probably use um, a tactic where you force a no that actually means a yes. So I would probably do something like, hey, this has been three months. Are you opposed to just jumping on a 10, 10 minute call? So I can understand why this is your choice and typically, you know, people want to, to say no, so they say no. But that means yes, right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Right. And then I would try to wedge my, try to wedge myself in there, my Italian hands and the mic right there. I'm m just hitting it lots.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Um, but yeah, that's probably what I would try. But to your point, super fair that that makes it challenging.

Jeff Cluff: I was just curious, um, are you a. Ah, Chris Voss fan.

Guest: Yes. I've actually shared a stage with him.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, really?

Guest: Which is super cool.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, he's. Yeah. Tell me about it. Was that amazing?

Guest: Yeah, it's. It was. It. I couldn't believe it when I got hired for that speaking engagement. And then I looked at it and I was like, in the keynote is Chris Boss. Like, I'm opening for Chris Boss. I was like, this is so cool. Right?

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So it was really, really gratifying and he was awesome. And like, we didn't like, chat like we were not like best friends or anything.

Jeff Cluff: Sure.

Guest: Um, maybe he won't even remember me. And that's okay.

Jeff Cluff: I'm sure he will.

Guest: But I. It was just. It was a milestone for me to. To hit that.

Jeff Cluff: To be in that same room and, you know, in this. On the same, um, agenda. Yeah, that's. Were you also speaking about negotiations or were we speaking about.

Guest: I, um, can't remember my topic at that time. I think it was building sales teams. I think that was what that one was about. Yep.

Jeff Cluff: I like that. M. Um, yeah, obviously your story about the. No, that. That reminded me of. Of him immediately.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Um. Have you ever had a situation where, uh, you were talking about the radical hitter? Have you ever had a situation where you. You've jumped, um, to that too early where the person wasn't ready, where you thought there was trust there and it wasn't?

Guest: And fortunately, no.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, nice.

Guest: But I have seen other people do it when it was not appropriate. It's a. You could cut that room with like a knife on attention.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, man.

Guest: Yes.

Jeff Cluff: So you're there. And then what's your approach in that? Are you kind of like a. Are you prone to. Just to try to jump in and try to ease that tension?

Guest: It depends on the relationship and the topic. So one thing you have to be careful of when you act as a fractional C. CRO or your senior leadership and it's the, uh, it's. The laws of power is never outshine the leader.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Right. So you have to understand who's hosting the meeting, who's in charge of the agenda. If it's me, then, yeah, I'm going to step in. But if the CEO called it, you better give him a chance first before you start running your mouth or you're going to create the same problem for yourself. So you really have to know how to work a room.

Jeff Cluff: I think there's something to that. That's a skill, though. I mean, being able to understand. Understand and read a room.

Guest: Oh, it's huge. Huge. Huge. Huge. And um. Yeah, and I could talk about that a bit too, if you want to, please.

Jeff Cluff: Okay. So the last thing you were saying a second ago was. And we were talking about reading. Reading and understanding room. Yeah.

Guest: Yeah. So when, uh, I had did a really creative thing when I was trying to get clients, when I showed, when I sold commercial title insurance. And, and the creative thing I did was I was having a really hard time getting meetings with people because everyone had their established relationships and they were golfing buddies or they went to private schools together. And that's never been my sales strategy.

Jeff Cluff: Was this the company that had that said, we're gonna give you basically a country, uh, club membership?

Guest: Yes.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Mhm. And I tried, but just let your jam. It just all felt so inauthentic. And, and I felt like I, I always am great at selling because I deliver value. Like I say, hey, this is the gap. You need to fill the gap. Here we go. And I felt like with that there was no value to be provided. It was a commodity. And if the only value is time with me and doing expensive things, it just, it didn't land for me.

Jeff Cluff: Sure.

Guest: So I'm like, okay, well, how can I, uh, spin this right? And I realized a lot of the decision makers I wanted at that time were all trying to be on panels or like get speaking gigs and there's big land guys in Orange county and they all wanted to be on stage and like, yada, yada, yada. And then I realized when I would go to these events that none of them were very good on stage. And I could tell they had stage fright. I could tell they didn't know how to properly put together a talk and all these things. And I said, huh, huh, I could solve that problem and then we would build this relationship. Right. So I created a Toast Masters club. And it was private invite only, it was not open to everyone. And I hand selected about 20 people that I thought would help me get deals in the industry. And I brought them in to teach them how to speak and how to work a room, how to identify. So it was a combination of the Toastmasters curriculum with my background from my degree. And it was super fun. And yes, it worked. And, but that is, that was my first attempt at teaching. How do you read a room? How do you work a room? And, and it was super fun. There's a few things. Your position at the table is incredibly important. Very important.

Jeff Cluff: Not your literal position.

Guest: Your literal position. So, uh, first of all, there's two different roles when you're in a room, you're either the facilitator, right. Or you're the attendee in corporate America or any big boardrooms, wherever you want to call all. It matters where you're at, right? So first of all, um, with the exception of here, because you're the host. So you're on that side. I would have taken that side. The reason why, why is my back is never to a door. Because you want to be, ah, Most buildings, like, we'll have like, glass windows and stuff like that. You want to see if anyone's coming or going. You want to see the movement. You want to see the distraction. So anyhow.

Jeff Cluff: Okay, I like that.

Guest: That's good. Never, never your back to a door. And then also safety call. You just should never have your back to a door. Okay. Uh, but that has nothing to do with negotiation. Um, anyhow. So that's one thing. The other thing is who you decide to sit next to when you walk. When you walk into a room. So, for example, let's just take it senior leadership. And I'm the CRO. We have the CEO, we have a cmo, we have coo. We got all these people, right? So I always sit next to the person who I know is not going to be my number one advocate. I never sit next to my advocate because it's kind of like a groupie thing. Like, there's like, oh, they're groupies. Like, you're not going to have an opportunity to, like, battle it, right? So the closer proximity to the person who's going to try to take you down, the better in a room. And so that's really, really important. Um, so that's one tip. Um, if you're the facilitator, the person in the back of the room, the back of the table, the quiet person is actually the person who's going to make the decision. So you better play to them. Do not ignore them because they're quiet. So there's all. And then there's all of these dynamics. And then you'll also see the distracted people in the back who then get on their phone, or the person in the front who you can't focus. And your job is like, trying to get everybody to come together and not be, like, running around like wild cats, right? And so playing that game is incred, incredibly, um, important. The other thing is, is never slouch and sit back. Your. Your presence is really important. Shoulders back, hands on the table, eye contact, leaning in. All of those nonverbals signal. She knows what she's doing. So this is really, really important. So you're present is almost more important than what comes out of your mouth. So those are just some highlights.

Jeff Cluff: That's really good. Yes, that's really good. And the thing that I liked about what you just described is that you can do all of those things non verbally. You didn't have, you didn't. There was nothing that you just described about, let's go around the table and do an icebreaker and an introduction and all that. And maybe there's a place for those. But it wasn't required. It was just by paying attention, being present and maybe a little prep work beforehand.

Guest: Yes, some investigation. You're prepared when you show up. Uh, yeah, I would not, uh, never do an icebreaker, actually.

Jeff Cluff: Fair enough.

Guest: Yeah, because it lowers your authority. Because it's kind of just a cheesy game.

Jeff Cluff: Do you do introductions? Like, hey, can we just make sure we have everyone's name or is that not even a thing?

Guest: Well, if everyone knows each other, then.

Jeff Cluff: Oh yes, yes.

Guest: Right. But if it's a new. If it's a whole bunch of people moving around 100%, you got to let people introduce themselves. Um, but it's got to go fast and needs to be rapid fire. If people are talking about themselves a lot and it's like, oh, and then the weather and then blah, blah, blah, you just lose the authority of the meeting. So it's a, uh, it's a bit of a dance.

Jeff Cluff: Fair enough.

Guest: Mhm.

Jeff Cluff: Okay, let's talk about if you're up for it, the local guild. I think that's super interesting.

Guest: Well, I'm really excited about this. It's my first conversation about the local guild on a podcast.

Jeff Cluff: Thank you. I'm honored. Appreciate that. Thank you.

Guest: So as I mentioned out of my story of how I've got where I am today and the types of people that I've helped. So Park City has just, um, imprinted itself on my heart in like a very special way. The reason why is people who, who live in Park City all choose to be there. They all have the same approach to life, which is abundance, um, success, uh, business ownership, uh, depending on yourself, self reliance, like all of being outdoors. Like the value system is incredible. And you don't have to battle a bunch of clicks or niche or like, you know, niche little groups or whatever because no one's really lived there their whole life. Very few people have. So everyone's used to this like influx bucks. Right. And so when I noticed this, I, so I started a women's Entrepreneurs group up in Park City about a year ago and it's like 80 women. It's awesome. And as a result of that, then, um, I just started getting my hands in a bunch of local businesses and I was like, huh? Like that wasn't something that I thought I would end up doing. But oh my gosh, is it so fun? So everything from barns to doggy daycares to gift shots to restaurants to med spas, those are the people that I have been quietly helping behind the scenes scale. You know, in the same way I would take a startup to 50 million, but their goals are different, their PNLs are different, their budgets are different, their woes are different. Um, you know, I think the biggest one for most local businesses is they depend on so much part time minimum wage work that changes the dynamic of so much that goes on inside a company anyway. And even if you're paying like, you know, way more than minimum wage, it's still not ne a lot of the roles aren't necessarily career. So you, you attract a different type of person which causes a lot of hiccups within a business. Anywho, what I originally was getting hired to do is like, hey, we have a sales problem. Basically. Like for example, like somebody will come in and board their dog for one night, but then they won't buy the membership that gives them discounts for all the rest of their boarding. And for the doggy daycare, not just the overnight and the bat and the wash. And like that's their revenue model that needs to happen. And so it's just teaching people who make $18 an hour to sell a membership when someone comes and picks up their dog was an interesting challenge for me.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And I'm like, this is fun. And so this is where I ended up focusing my energy. And then recently, um, a barn wanted to launch a summer camp, a horse summer camp. And, and I'm like, cool, can I try to sell it? Like I'm just, I really want to be like, can I do this? And of course I knew I could, but I still prove it. So like a good case study, right? So I spent 300 on local marketing and that resulted as of today, when I checked, it's only been two and a half weeks. $15,000 in camp sales for someone who's not established. Can't even find them on Google.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's not bad.

Guest: And has never had summer camp before. And so I guess once that happened it solidified everything for me. I was like, oh my gosh, everything I've done My whole life brought me back to this circle of where I can help these local businesses scale and grow when a lot of people don't help Main Street America when they're so incredibly important. And so I came up with a concept and it's called the Local Guild and it is a membership. And inside the membership, I have built what I call the local business group growth engine, which is, uh, four tracks and 11 plays.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Okay. You do not follow them in order, which is interesting. You take a diagnostic to decide where your business pressures are and take action there.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Very cool, very fun. And I am so excited to release it here in a couple of days. And because I believe that I should always give value before I expect something back from people, I developed a seven day sales jumpstart. The quick things you can do do to see a spike in your revenue. And it's completely free. Seven days and, uh, you can decide if the program's good for you.

Jeff Cluff: That's amazing. Now, you're based in Park City, but is this specific to Park City or is this something that anyone could do?

Guest: It is for everybody in my good old America. All right, so my goal is at least 500 businesses in 2026. And I think it would be really fun if it could be across as many states as possible. Yeah, that would be really satisfying. Because the thing is, is I'm not just teaching people how to grow their business. I'm teaching people how to build community and how to, uh, strengthen their community through the growth of their business. It's full circle. And if I could touch all of those communities and know I had something to do with that for the stabilization of, um, a town in Idaho or the stabilization of somewhere in Minnesota, that would be. Feel really amazing for me. So that's the mission behind it. And um, yeah, I just, my TAM is huge. There's a, there's a lot of local businesses out there.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, for sure.

Guest: And so here we go. We're going to rock and roll. And it's really cool because inside my membership platform there's a map and it says where you're located.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, cool.

Guest: Um, now there's some security measures in there. It's like no closer than 10 miles of where you actually are, but it's really cool. And then so my hope is, you know, when December rolls around, I open up that map and I just see dots across the entire United States. And I think this is just the beginning. The local guild is just the beginning. I think there's going to be a lot of cool things that come out of it.

Jeff Cluff: Sounds like it. So y. 500. Just curious. Is that just felt like a nice number.

Guest: Good. Felt good. And it matches my financial protections.

Jeff Cluff: I like that. All right.

Guest: Yep. I mean, I had to. I always joke around because I'm not a hugely serious person. Very smart, very capable, but not hugely serious. And so I always joke around that, you know, I'm girl mathing over here, but my math is actually real legit.

Jeff Cluff: It sounds like it. Um. That's good. I like that. Well, thanks for breaking down local guilt. I think that's. I think that's really exciting. And I mean, yeah, 500. No issue, I'm sure.

Guest: Yeah, it'll be. It'll be fun. And, you know, there's, um. I'm offering some spots on my podcast for ads and interviews and, you know, revenue Rascals was. It was really built to just show everybody that there are different ways to grow, and not everyone's success is defined the same way. And, uh, the podcast has absolutely hit that accomplishment with different ways to build businesses, to make sales, to grow, to be happy in life, to sustain high performance. And so now offering these spots on the podcast is going to feel really good because the podcast monetization model is sponsorships. So once again, I'm doing the same thing I would do for my clients is how do we make sure there's no disconnection points in your loop? Right. So it's all coming back.

Jeff Cluff: I like that. You know something that I was thinking about is your customer acquisition cost. $300 for 15,000 in sales. It's real good.

Guest: Yeah.

Jeff Cluff: Um, do you think. Is that just. Is that change just. I'm comparing that then to how we were talking earlier about how you were talking about the affiliate model, and it was just really high acquisition cost. Is it a different customer or is it just the influx or the. The addition of Facebook local ads has made it that much more attainable for small businesses.

Guest: I actually didn't run any ads.

Jeff Cluff: Oh, for your $300 in marketing. No, I thought. I'm sorry. For some reason, I thought it was Facebook ads that you were doing. What was your marketing?

Guest: Can you say, okay, so first me answer your first question. So it really matters what you're selling.

Jeff Cluff: Okay.

Guest: Okay. So let's break down some organization. For example, kids have to go to summer camp.

Jeff Cluff: Yes. Mostly.

Guest: Period. Right. If you have.

Jeff Cluff: If you have two.

Guest: Two working parents, you got to find somewhere to plop them.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Right. And arguably for middle to upper class, even if there's only one working parent you're still trying half the summer to plop them into camp.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Right. So that is a have to have right now, this software that I'm trying to sell or frankly even the local guild, is that seen as like I absolutely have. Have to.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, less so.

Guest: Less so.

Jeff Cluff: Sure.

Guest: Right. But this is. And so when you already have a have to demand and you position it at the right time with the right features, that is a way easier sale.

Jeff Cluff: That's a good point.

Guest: Yeah, way easier. And so what I did is I went and found two large influencers who have huge lists, two moms who live in the wasatch back.

Jeff Cluff: Nice.

Guest: And I spent $150 on email promotions for both of them. And that is how it happened.

Jeff Cluff: Wow.

Guest: Yeah. Mhm.

Jeff Cluff: That's nice.

Guest: Yep. So that was it.

Jeff Cluff: That's not bad.

Guest: And, but the only reason it worked is I knew exactly where to go to find the people. And if you think about it, it's kind of affiliate.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, a little bit. Yeah.

Guest: Kind of went back to that.

Jeff Cluff: Right?

Guest: Yeah, true.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So you know exactly where to go. You build the right offer, you meet the, the demand and you're golden. So that's, that's a piece of the puzzle. And like it's the same thing. Like you still need, you know, your, you need your water filter changed or you need a new roof. Like these are all like these are. You have to do it. So now you're just choosing who is a way different thing than selling abstract intangible B2B services. And that's why the acquisition costs are so much higher.

Jeff Cluff: That makes sense.

Guest: Um, but I will also say it depends on like, um, so on Amazon, for example, like Amazon Marketplace, if we go back to consumer, consumer goods on that. It is really hard for companies to make a profit if Amazon Marketplace is their only place.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: So it's a great place to put your top skews for brand awareness and get a couple of purchases. But you better hope you have a plan to drive those people back to your website for future purchases. Because what uh, most people don't understand is when someone buys your stuff off, off Amazon, you don't get any of that information. No email address, no name, nothing.

Jeff Cluff: It's a good point.

Guest: So Amazon's in complete control of that lifetime value of that customer and I don't like that. So it's great to get client acquisition that way, but you want to be growing that business off your own side. So that's like you have to have a gimmick or an offer or something when they open up that Amazon product that drives that customer to your website and not back to Amazon.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's really interesting. That makes perfect sense though. Tell me why feedback is so important.

Guest: Yeah, so in the context of seller feedback, that's where I'd like to take the conversation is if you are an account executive, a bdr, anybody in sales, the Persona of somebody who's great at sales, me included, has a healthy ego. Okay. If you don't have a healthy ego, it is really hard to have these difficult conversations to stand up to authority and feel comfortable to make recommendations. Especially if you're in a B2B, uh, service. Like, you got to know what you're doing right, so you actually want someone with a healthy ego selling for you. But at the same time, sometimes people who have healthy egos don't really want feedback. And so you have to be mindful of how you deliver it. Now, we talked about radical candor and for me, I'm that person. My personality is give me the radical candor. But I'm not taking just a seller. I have a business owner. I'm a leader. Like, I maybe would have not loved it, you know, had I not been on this personal journey for the last decade. So what happens a lot of times is when I come in an organization and I'm assigned the sales team for a period of time to increase, to increase their sales, there clearly needs to be a feedback loop. And most the time when I'm hired, they've never been given feedback, which is why I was hired. And if we're talking about how this was done a couple of years ago ago, now it's hugely different. So the number one thing that a seller can do for feedback is to record their calls and use technology to give them feedback. Okay, sure. So, you know, the big giant in this game was Gong for forever. But GONG is complicated and so expensive and really only meant for enterprise. So you had all these enterprise companies using gong, but then you had mid market or small businesses with no resources. So people started to use like Otter or Fathom and like just at least go back and to listen to their calls. But that was like a major problem. So then hear me, I'm inserted and I am here to give you feedback. Right. And, and so it's really difficult to give a good seller feedback because they're good, not great. But those are the people you have to focus on. Okay. You got to give them to great. And they're a little insecure because they know they're good, not Great. And they won't admit it, so it's difficult. I have found, um, that radical candor still works fantastic in those environments. As long as what I said is the trust and the rapport is built. And then your tone matters so much. Like if you're soft and you're not coming in aggressive, it, it doesn't matter what comes out of your mouth. People can tell it's from a place of, uh, like caring and to wanting. Wanting you to succeed. And, you know, I actually learned this through horses, which is like really a random connection point here. But, um, anyone who rides horses whose horses are in pasture, you have to catch them, which means you go out there into maybe 10 acres and you have to try to get your horse to pay attention to you. Right now, the better relationship you have, or if you have tricks or tips or whatever, it ends up becoming easier and easier. Like, I own a horse now and I could, you know, I just shake a carrot in the air and he comes running. Right. So things change over time. But if it's not not your horse or it's a new horse, it's actually really hard to catch them. So I remember when I was riding mustangs, and mustangs are really hard to catch because they were wild.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And then now they're not. Right. And so I was taught this through the horse world, which I think is so amazing. And it's, um, slouching yourself and approaching shoulder to shoulder versus like, I'm here, nice and tall, looking you straight in the eye. Like I'm gonna take, take you down. Right.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Very different. So I learned this through the horse world and I would apply it to the way that I would give feedback. And it doesn't matter if you're on Zoom or you're in person, you can totally take the less dominant slouch. You can be soft, you can angle yourself so that you're not like being aggressive straight on. There's so many different ways you can do it and it's just the words are going to land different and it's really important. And so anyway, so I learned how to do that. But now there's really, really cool platforms out there that are meeting people. Um, and I'll make sure you have this because I think it's really valuable if you want to put it in the show notes. But it's a product called Objectionly and it does exactly what Gong does, but it's meant for the small mid sized business. And the reason why I'm bringing this up is that if you're a seller, you have the ability to go sign up for something like that, and you can get the feedback without your manager giving you the feedback. So you can still progress, but you can progress without anybody knowing that you're working on yourself. So now there's like, so many different options. And so not only do you need to receive it, but you have to take the action. That's the part of Radical Candor that's really important is the last piece of can you commit to this? Right. And it could be really uncomfortable. But people who go all in on it, including myself, and sometimes I like backwards radical candor myself, and I'm like, michelle, this is your feedback. Can you commit to this? Right? And I think it's really, it's profound. So if you can get to that point where you can get the commitment, like, it's golden. And I'm thinking of this young gentleman, uh, that I helped last year, and I hired him right out of college into a BDR role where he was managing an AI sales agent. And he was doing his job as a bdr, which is all the cold calling, the text messages, the email, emails, all the stuff. And he was just such a sweet kid. Like, such a sweet kid. And, uh, he totally has it in him. He's going to be super successful. But what's interesting with the Gen Zers versus I'm a millennial, but sometimes I feel like I'm more like a Gen X anyhow. If you look at all the characters, there's blurred lines. There's blurred lines.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Um, and for him is. And this is interesting I'm bringing up with the feedback is that generation actually is starving for feedback. Like, they behave differently than the Millennials way. Um, differently. And so I found pockets of time on like a daily basis or be like, hey, like this, this, that. It's like, oh, my God, that's great. Like, I'll do that next time. Next time. Next. Like, it was amazing. So you also have to pay the Play the Generation game too. And I'm, um. If you are leading Gen Zers, they love feedback and they like it at the time that it's happening. So this whole quarterly RO review thing, scratch it.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: Because they will quit and find a new job for their quarterly review because they want constant feedback.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah.

Guest: And you know, sometimes people are like, well, then they have to change and be like us. And I'm like, uh, okay. Or not, because all you're going to have is Gen Zers to be able to hire. So you're going to change A whole generation versus changing your company culture a little. Like, let's actually think about that. Yeah, we, which is easier.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's true. Or like, yeah, there. I have a million thoughts on that. But you're, you're spot on. It's, it's much more reasonable to do and the right approach. You're, you're going to miss out on a lot of great talent if you don't. So.

Guest: Yeah, and they just, they want to be supported differently than millennials. Millennials were like, give me as much space as possible and like, get out of my face. I am a, I need autonomy. And these gen zers are like, hi. What'd you think about that?

Jeff Cluff: I mean, how great is it, though, to have, have, um, I'm jumping back a little bit. So you're right that there's couldn't be more different. But, um, but also, like, how I was thinking about how great it is to be able to have the ability to get that feedback. Think of a situation. Say you're like, really trying hard and you just have a terrible manager and you, that's okay. You can still get feedback. Get better on your own. Take, you know, remove your, like, if you can't get out of that situation, you still want to get better. Like, just get better. You can figure it out on your

Guest: own, you know, like, take the initiative and do it.

Jeff Cluff: Use the tools that are there. There. There are tools that are there. That's a great one.

Guest: And now with AI and everything, it is, it doesn't even matter if you're a seller. Anything that you do, like, any piece of, like, work or a talk or whatever, ask them to pick it apart. Ask, uh, AI to be like, where's the gaps here? Yeah, like, what am I missing? Or what did I do? Like, all this is, it's like, at your fingertips.

Jeff Cluff: It's true, it's true.

Guest: So I, I personally block time for that each week to think about my week to think about what I can improve on. And, you know, I commit to that. And as someone who's never had a mentor, you know, it's taken a lot of ways to try to figure that out, but I actually really like open dialogue with my AI bots.

Jeff Cluff: I, I, I like this vision of you driving, chatting with Grok on the way back home. Today, you're learning a lot. They're smart, they don't.

Guest: And it's like, very conversational.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, that's true.

Guest: But they will be agreeable unless you ask them not to be.

Jeff Cluff: Yes.

Guest: So that's the only thing about AI, they're going to be agreeable. So you have to say, hey, and my bot's name is Peaches. She named herself, which is really funny. And I'm like, peaches, stop being agreeable.

Jeff Cluff: She'll agree to not be agreeable. Michelle, this has been amazing. Thanks. Anything we didn't cover that? You want to cover anything where?

Guest: Yeah, no, I think we've covered everything. If you're a local business listening right now, please come and join my seven day sales jumpstart. I'm so excited to share it. And if you are a founder, an owner or a revenue leader seller, please go to revenue rascals.com and listen in on a couple episodes.

Jeff Cluff: Yeah, it's a great ep, it's a great podcast. I really, really enjoyed it.

Guest: Thank you.

Jeff Cluff: Listening in, I believe I listened to two episodes and yeah, really interesting stuff. Um, tactical information, revenue focus. But also, like, if you don't happen to be a finance expert, there's going to be information in there for you. And so I think there's just good, solid, good conversation in there.

Guest: Yep. And it's all about making money and growing businesses.

Jeff Cluff: I mean, who doesn't want to do that? Where can people find you if they want to get in touch? Revenue rascals.com is that the best place?

Guest: Yeah, that's the best place. Or honestly, I reply to all of my messages on social media. So I'm the Michelle Terpstra on Instagram, the Michelle Terpstra on LinkedIn. It's really easy to find me underneath my main brand, which is Michelle Terpstra. And I'd love for you to give me a connection and send me a message and let me know what your biggest takeaway was from this interview.

Jeff Cluff: Awesome. Well, thanks, Michelle. Appreciate you. And um, yeah, thanks everybody for listening. Talk to you soon. Thanks.