How to Break Any Habit For Good - Will Armstrong

Speaker A: It was around my teenage years, around 15, 16 years old, I really developed quite a severe social anxiety. I was very anxious. I couldn't really be around people. I overthrew everything. And over the years it got worse and worse and worse. And the only respite I ever found from that anxiety was drinking. Drinking was something, it was a tool that I used to kind of switch my brain off to remove the anxiety almost so that my personality could come forward because it hadn't had a chance to rule the anxiety. When I'm drinking, I can be me with no concept of repercussions. And that kind of took over in a big way when I was at university to the point that I actually failed my course. I got kicked out after two years because I just, I didn't attend anything, I didn't submit any work, I didn't even explain why I wasn't there. I just, I, I was in a bit of a lost space. And because of that I ended up going back after the second year back to my parents house. I was 19, 20 years old and I had no idea what I wanted to do.

Speaker B: You spent years standing next to a list celebrities and presidents at some of what I understand are London's most famous restaurants and night spots. I was reading about it on paper. It seems like a really cool picture, but I was hoping if you, I'm uh, hoping to hear in your words if you could take me back to the beginning, you know, like who, who was Will before all that happened.

Speaker A: Very interesting question. And it's funny because that lifestyle kind of seems like a dream now. It feels kind of surreal. But I, I was never part of anything like that. I grew up in the countryside in the uk in, in England, just south of Manchester. No connection to that lifestyle at all. And you know, growing up in the countryside, I love to play sports, I loved music. I had two, uh, two brothers. And you know, we, we had a nice life growing up. We had a nice life. And I remember when I was at uh, university, I was probably about 18, I think I actually went to London for a, for a night out. And I hated it. And I was like, this city is big, it's busy, it's, it's not friendly. No way am I ever going to move here. And then when I went back to uni, I did a couple of years of university and realized I just didn't like what I was doing. I didn't like being in education, I didn't, I wasn't in love with what I was studying. And it was around my teenage years, around 15, 16 years old, I really developed quite a severe social anxiety. I was very anxious, I couldn't really be around people. I overthought everything. And over the years that just tend, it got worse and worse and worse. And the only respite I ever found from that anxiety was drinking. Drinking was something, it was a tool that I used to kind of switch my brain off to remove the anxiety almost so that my personality could come forward because it hadn't had a chance through all the anxiety. And when I'm drinking I can be me with no concept of repercussions. And that kind of took over in a big way when I was at university to the point that I actually failed my course. I got kicked out after two years because I just, I didn't attend anything, I didn't submit any work, I didn't attend. I didn't even explain why I wasn't there. I just, I, I was in a bit of a lost space. And because of that I ended up going back after the second year, uh, back to my parents house. And I was 19, 20 years old and I had no idea what I wanted to do. But I knew I didn't want to go back to university. And you know, my parents were quite academic so they were suggesting that's the route I should go. And I thought, you know, I want to get out into the world, I want to start working, I want to start learning some skills like, like real world skills. So in the meantime I thought, let me go and work at uh, this restaurant down the road from where my parents live. It was in the countryside, it was a very, very popular restaurant. Very busy, maybe like we used to serve 300 people a night on a busy night. So it was, it was intense, huge, huge place. And as soon as I started I just fell in love with it. And I think there is a psychological, there's uh, a psychological element to it because having social anxiety, you always want to remain in control to reduce your anxiety. Now being in control of a social situation, there's nothing that's better than running a restaurant because I, you know, even to the psychological level that they're sat down, I'm stood up, I can walk away and come back as I please. There was a, there's a huge freedom which meant I could then be myself in that environment. And what was really strange is when I left there and let's say me and some of my colleagues would go out for a drink or go out, I would suddenly be anxious again. So I would Drink more. So I found that, uh, because I was more comfortable at work, I didn't want to leave work. And I'd be working, you know, crazy hours, like 15 to 20 hours a day non stop because I, I didn't want to be outside, I didn't want to socialize outside of it. Because of that, naturally you get pretty good at whatever you put 15 hours a day into. You know, you start to learn, you start to get better. And after a few months, only a few months, I remember saying to the guy that was, uh, that was running the whole place, I was like, I want to, I want to go up, I want to, I want to become management. I want to, I want to work my way up to the top. And yeah, he was like, let's do it. So he made me a manager of the restaurant. I think, uh, I think I was still when I became a manager, which, you know, looking back now to be managing a team of 60 people and looking after hundreds of thousands of pounds, finances, the security of the property. I was 19 years old. I didn't know, I didn't know anything. Which is kind of, it's kind of wild. But it meant that I grew up very, very quickly. You know, I was given responsibility considering that a year before that I was at university, just getting drunk with no purpose. A year later, I'm now running this organization and I embraced it. I loved it. I loved that feeling. I was like, yeah, this is what I'm about. I don't want to sit in a classroom and feel like I'm on the same level as everyone else. I want my own path, I want to succeed. And because of that, within a year I'd had an opportunity to go to London to work for one of the oldest, most famous restaurants in London, which was called the Ivy. And I went there for a trial shift for a couple of days. Funnily enough, I was staying at my friend's place and we were out drinking and partying till about six in the morning. And I had to be at the restaurant at 8 in the morning. But back then I was, I was fairly resilient. I could just bounce back and be like, right, I've had an hour's sleep. Cool, get up, let's go. And I did a couple of days working there and yeah, they said, we want you to start. And I was like, cool, let's do it. I said, um, I can be back in a few months. And they said, no, we'll give you two weeks tops. If you're not here, you've lost the job. So I was like, oh, wow. So I had to upend my life. Within two weeks, my current restaurant had no idea I was even in London doing this. So I had to go back and within two weeks, tell them I'm leaving, I've got to find a flat, and so on. But I knew I had to make it work. So I, I did. And within two weeks I was staying in some big Victorian townhouse in London, uh, with a few other guys that I'd met at the property. And, and I started work and I was so committed. I was spending, you know, maybe like 10 hours a day working and another six hours in the evening just learning. I was studying everything. I was reading all their books, reading about their artwork, their clientele. I was so hyper focused on, I'm going to be the best at this. Because that was my mentality. I was kind of all or nothing. And interestingly, after starting to work there, a lot of my colleagues, a lot of my seniors and directors and managers, they all drank a lot and they all took a lot of drugs. And I went with this really professional mindset that I'm, uh, gonna be, I'm gonna be super hyper focused here. And then very soon I realized that everyone else was, was drinking or doing coke. And I thought, yeah, do you know what? Let me, let me try it. And I tried it. And the same all or nothing mentality I had in my work suddenly went into the party lifestyle as well. And you know, I could spend hours talking about what the next few years looked like. But the long and short of it is, over those years I still managed to work my way up. I went through the ranks at, uh, that venue to become the maitre d. Then I moved to another venue. And then finally I ended up at the last venue, which was where I became the general manager by the age of 27. So I remember that was my goal. I wanted to be a general manager of a top London venue by 35 years old. And I got it by 27. Despite all of the drinking and partying that left me neglecting my health, not really focusing, somehow I'd managed to get there, you know, eight years earlier. And it was a year after that that, uh, things kind of came to a head, which I'll. I'll let you reflect on what I've said before we go down that path.

Speaker B: Thanks. That's an amazing. I mean, even just a partial chapter there to share. I'm thinking about this, uh, this ability that you had to really just lock in and really hyper Focus on this goal of becoming a gm, hell or high water, so to speak. Have there been other periods in your life earlier when you. When you really were driven towards something like that, or was this something new that developed when you found hospitality?

Speaker A: So when I was a teenager, I ended up playing rugby, which I don't believe you have too much in the States, but it's, as I'm sure you're aware, uh, pretty much American football without the pads, which kind of seems crazy now. I feel so, uh, I feel so mortal and delicate now. In my latter end of the 30s, I'm like, I don't know how I was able to play that, but it was brutal. And I remember that was. That could have been compared to that mentality of I'm gonna really hyper focus on this. And, you know, I was in the gym, I was getting myself stronger and fitter and faster. And because of that, my, My performance in rugby just got better and better. And I think it was like the hyper focusing on, I want to be the best at this, I want to succeed in this. And I did very well up until just before I went to university, and I had a really bad knee injury, which still still bugs me today. But, uh, yeah, that was, that would. That had to be the end of the, of rugby. I tried a little bit afterwards, but I was like, yeah, I might either do some damage or never get to where I want to be and be frustrated and resentful. So I kind of thought, I'll park that. It was a great time, and left it there.

Speaker B: There's something to that, I think being able to acknowledge that, hey, this thing had value in my life for a time and a season. But it's time to move on, you know, like, you don't have to resent it. It's just, just here. It was great. I. I learned some things. It was a big part of my life. But now, now it's time to move on. Yeah. What, uh, I'm curious, what were you studying when you were at university for those two years, although it didn't resonate with you?

Speaker A: Well, I was studying sports technology because I remember, because I loved rugby and I loved sport. I was like, I want to do something along those lines. And everyone was doing sports science, which is more likely to become a physiotherapist or something involved in that, Whereas I kind of liked sports technology. The difference was it was the design, manufacture, and marketing of sports equipment. And I went to the best sports university in the uk, a, uh, university called Loughborough. And I Remember, it was really prestigious to go there if sports was your focus. But once I got there, I realized the difference between sports science and sport technology was. The technology was, it was basically engineering. You know, I had a lot of friends at university who were doing like seven hours a week. So much time off, so much time relaxing, and I was on an engineering course. It was like 36 hours a week. I felt like I was in full time employment, but I wasn't making money. And you know, as a 19 year old, I was, I had all this energy and I'm like, I don't really know where this is leading me either, because if I'm not enjoying the course, am I. Am I going to enjoy this for the rest of my life? And I think that was also a factor in me just not really turning up as well as obviously the anxiety, which just made it near impossible.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, speaking of anxiety, obviously you talked about how you were coping with anxiety when you were working at the restaurant. But I mean, you know, do you think that, uh, you kind of forced yourself into a situation where you have to have like so many. Let me say it this way. If you're for someone who has a lot of anxiety, making small talk with strangers is not natural. Right. I say this as someone who is fairly anxious and I know I'm not speaking for everyone, for myself, but I mean, you put yourself in a situation where you are like, my job is to have social contact and make small talk essentially with strangers for, uh, 10 hours a day. After so many years working in restaurants and dealing with people and working in hospitality, did the anxiety ever get any less for you?

Speaker A: Good question. It probably seems pretty stupid that, uh, I can say I had social anxiety. So I decided to go and work in restaurants. Right. Because it's the most social environment. The difference I found was working in a restaurant was scripted. I knew there was a purpose to the interaction. So I was, I was okay with being surface level and being like, hey, good evening. Yeah, nice to meet you. If you've got a reservation. Cool. Yeah. What would you like? Like, it was all, I didn't have to be me. I could be the server, I could be the maitre d. And it was, it made it so much easier. And in that situation, there was no anxiety. The anxiety came when we would all leave the restaurant and we sat around as a group of colleagues. And suddenly I'm like, well, how do I act? What do I say? And it, uh, like I almost overthought who I was. And this is where a Lot of the work we do now is about identity. And at that point I don't think I knew who I was. I'd spent my teenage years anxious and drinking. I then started working in a restaurant and I'd never really spent the time to understand who I was. So outside of work I felt like it was a bit of wasted time. I'm like, my purpose and my identity is in hospitality. That's where it is. And when I'm in that position, I actually found it quite easy to interact. So weirdly, the more interaction I had, which was, let's say on the restaurant floor was easy. It was off the restaurant floor that I really started to struggle because I just didn't know what to say.

Speaker B: That makes so much sense. Thanks for breaking it down like that. Yeah, that makes so much sense. So how did you figure out who you are then? You talked about this work of finding out who you are. I sense now like it feels like you. It feels like that's not an issue for you anymore.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Um, I'd love to know.

Speaker A: Well, let's, let's continue with that timeline because I was working in hospitality in London and in my final year and a half in that venue, I actually changed from working as the head maitre d in the restaurant and they gave me an opportunity to be the general manager of the bar. Now the bar was a pretty much a private member's bar. This is where most of the ultra high net worth billionaires, celebrities, this is where a lot of them would hang out. And I was the person running that bar, which means that, you know, when they come in a lot of times they may offer me a drink or come and have a seat with us. Let's have a chat. A lot of my job because I would work so hard during the day and make sure that everything is so well organized as it comes to the evening where people start arriving. I'd kind of made myself a spare part. I would, I didn't need to be of service. So my job was just to hang around and just chat to people. And you know, there's a lot of people out there that would see my role as being one of the best jobs. You know, I was there just to schmooze celebrities, which is an amazing thing to get paid for. And with that came at, uh, a lack of accountability in terms of what I was there to do. So people start buying me drinks and usually it'd be things like tequila and I would just go around, around the bar drinking. And I remember there was one night and, uh, I put this on my podcast, actually, which was I went round the bar. We had like this big oval bar in the middle of beautiful room. And I would go around that bar and sometimes I would have about 14 drinks within the space of an hour. And If I'm having 14 shots of tequila, that's, that's over a bottle. A bottle is 14 or 15 shots. So I'd had a bottle of tequila within an hour in the first few hours of working, which is. Is kind of crazy. And then with that, it would then, yeah, and obviously I've been doing. I've been doing, you know, years of the party lifestyle with drinking and drugs that follow. So, uh, an hour in and had a bottle of tequila, my mind would instantly go, let me, let me get some coke. And then, you know, if I'm running this bar and it's 7pm and I've already had a bottle of tequila and a gram of coke, it's gonna be a pretty wild night, you know. And so this was, this was what the final year of me working there looked like, which was that would be a particularly normal and heavy night the following day. Everyone that was there in the bar is probably gonna take a week off. I've gotta go back to the bar the next night to do the same thing again, but even harder. And it was just day after day after day that this happened. And it built up to the point where I was. I knew something was going to break. I didn't know if it was going to be my body, my mental health, my spirit. I knew that something had to give because the way I was living was so unsustainable. And I booked a weekend away to try and ease the pressure with a couple of friends. And, um, we were meeting at the train station on the Friday lunchtime. We were going to take four or five days away in the countryside, hiking. And the night before, I was so excited at work. I remember having a shot of tequila and then blank. I don't remember anything after that. Next thing I came to and I'm sat in a flat with a couple of guys and there's a mountain of cocaine in front of me. And I kind of thought, how did I get here? How did this happen? I looked at the time and my train was in about an hour. So I'd obviously been going all night and all morning. No recollection. I had to quickly go home, shower, um, get to the train station, meet my friends who were very fresh and ready for a relaxing weekend away. And they saw me and instantly they knew. And, yeah, one of my friends said to me, he's like, you need to sort your life out. Like, what are you doing? We're going away for a weekend. And I really didn't like it. I remember really hating him saying that to me. But on the train up, I was half trying to sleep and coming down and thinking about it and trying to avoid it somewhat. And then that weekend, we didn't go to the extreme. We had a few drinks, we hiked, and we went up one particular mountain, which is, uh, in a beautiful part of the uk. And on the hike up, I was really starting to reflect on what my life was like at that time. The years that had been before, things that I'd missed, my health, I was neglecting. And I remember once I got to the top of that mountain, I sat and I just really reflected. And some. Something just made me think, right, I need to change. This needs to change. And I remember sitting there and thinking, you're gonna. You're gonna take a break. You're gonna take a break. When you get back to London, you're gonna do one week, absolutely no drink, no drugs. I used to smoke quite heavily. I was like, I'm gonna stop smoking. And I really set myself this goal. And I remember on the train back, looking out the window and. And saying, like, you're serious this time. This time you're actually. You're going to make this happen. And even two days afterwards, I was trying to get to the pub with one of my colleagues saying, you know what? I've done two days. I feel fine. Point proved. I can do it, okay? And then that friend, that colleague actually said no. So because he said no, I went home and. And I didn't drink. And I carried it on. And I did a week, and I felt great at a week. And then I ended up doing two weeks. But because inside, in my head, I was like, I can't stop forever. That's. That's wild. Like, stopping forever is terrifying. So instead, I. I, uh, drank. I went back to it. I drank. And it wasn't crazy. It wasn't like the previous times. It was fairly controlled. But the next morning, I remember waking up and feeling that same sense of anxiety, the shame, the guilt. And I made a promise to myself, and I said, from now on, it doesn't matter what it looks like, it doesn't matter who it is, you're never going to drink again. And that was the 16th of May, 2018. And I've never drank since.

Speaker B: Wow. So what's the Time between the hike with your friend where you were like, I'm going to take a break. How many months or weeks before that was? Before the 16th of May story are we talking about?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that was two weeks before.

Speaker B: Just.

Speaker A: So we did the hike and then when I came back, I did two weeks, drank once more, and then I

Speaker B: was like, got it.

Speaker A: And then I'm done. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, when you're telling that story, something I was blown away by, I think I could definitely relate to this idea of, you know, like, say you, you show to a conference, you hear some motivational speaker somewhere, and you're like, bro, uh, this is so good. I'm going home and I'm gonna. All the things that are on my goal list, like, I'm gonna do all those things, like, this is happening, there's nothing is gonna stop me. And then, you know, maybe make a little progress sometimes. Look. And some people do it. But I definitely had, uh, experience where I come home and maybe think about it, maybe make a couple changes to make a couple pieces of progress. And then, you know, I'd like. Nah, I really wish. Change my mind. What do you think it is that, like, we can go that moment when you, when you're riding home or, uh, when you're, when you're on the, you know, when you're on your hike and having this experience, you're like, that's a real moment for you, man. You really made the decision, hey, I'm going to change. And then we can talk ourselves out of it so quickly.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I don't know. What do you think it is that that lets us talk it. That lets us talk ourselves out of it so quickly like that?

Speaker A: I think we have an amazing ability as humans to be able to forget pain and move past it very quickly. And what, you know, for instance, the perspective I have now, we run, which I'll get to later, we run a program that helps a lot of people who struggle with drinking drugs. And we can see the data that on a Friday and a Saturday, super quiet, no one's engaging, no one wants to change, because that's the days they want to go out, they want to drink, they want to relax. Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, we have a huge spike in people saying, I need to change my life. This has to stop. And unless we take action on that Sunday, Monday or Tuesday, if we get to Wednesday or Thursday and nothing's happened, they're back into going, actually, I think I'm okay again. And what we find is it can be quite a weekly cycle of feeling awful. I hate this. I regret it. To going, actually, do you know what? Maybe it's okay. Maybe I'll just have a couple of drinks. This is all fun and we justify it to ourselves. And the way I like to think about it is like, it feels like we're on this pendulum swinging from one side to the other and we swing this way and we go, oh, do you know what? This is awful. I need to change, I need help. I'll do anything. And before you know it, we're swinging the other way and we go, oh, uh, maybe it wasn't too bad. Actually. No. Do you know, I'm okay, I can have a couple of drinks. And we're just going back and forth. Now. The danger is most human beings are only going to make a decision based on where they are on that pendulum. So if they're feeling bad, they want help. If they feel good, they don't want help. The people who actually make a change realize that in the middle of that pendulum, there is what needs to happen. Regardless of where on the pendulum you are. If you feel bad or you feel good, it doesn't matter. We have clearly stated this needs to happen and we take action regardless. Which is also why motivation is not that consistent. Because you only feel motivated when you're on the pain. When you're feeling good, there's less motivation. Know a good friend of mine is a fitness coach and he always says the best, the best pre workout is insecurity because that's what's really going to push you to get in shape. And I found it a really interesting concept that we have to be in pain of some sort in order to really lock in.

Speaker B: That's such a good line from your friend, by the way. That's so true. The best pre workout is insecurity. And that's. Yeah, man, that's. That's true. I, uh, I like, I like uh, connecting, connecting this to pain in two ways. In that one of you said we forget pain so quickly. And that's true. And I, that's probably a survival instinct. But like so many survival instincts, they don't always serve you in, in the best way. So I like. Yeah, that makes sense. So, you know, do you find that, you know, your experience, although it's extended over a couple of weeks, it reminded me a little bit of, you know, similar to the, the, the Sunday, Monday, Tuesday kind of thing, right? Where you're like feeling, you're feeling, hey, I gotta make a change. And then, you know, in a couple days of feeling Good. You're like, yeah, that's the same. I mean, is that. Is there anything sim. Is there. Is that kind of what you experience? Like a microcosm of that? Like, just, hey, just that same.

Speaker A: That same weekend Pendulum, essentially, as in me, Me personally.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, you so back. Yeah. During your two week, uh, you know, your, Your experience on the mountain and then coming back home, you're like, on the mountain, gosh, I need to change. Come back home. Changing. And then, ah, uh, you know what? Maybe. Maybe I'm okay. Pendulum swinging back a little bit the other way and realizing, oh, no, this is a gun. And. And then you're back to it. Mean.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think. I think definitely, you know, it was definitely swung one way at the top of the mountain. And then that two days later was when I was feeling better and I was back into the same environment. Yeah. I remember actually finding it really fascinating to observe in myself of how could I have been in so much pain and so highly motivated for change and to stop doing this behavior? And yet two days later, my brain is screaming at me that we need it. And that's when, you know, a lot of my thought processes when I first started this was, how can there be two voices in my head? How can they both be at war with each other? One saying, we want to stop, and one saying, let's not stop. And that was where a lot of the work started with. With how we help helped people in order to recognize which part of their mind is at play, which part is calling the shots, which one are we going to listen to? And also to realize that in order to get out of this, it's going to be uncomfortable, but it's nowhere near as uncomfortable as getting into it or staying in it. And after the two weeks when I drank again, I think the pendulum broke. The pendulum broke in a way that it was stuck in. We're never going to convince ourselves that this is good again. We're not going to get to a point where we lie and say, we're going to handle it. We've given ourselves a. An undeniable stack of evidence that this doesn't end well. And that's when I started being a bit more vocal. I went into the same bar that I was running, and because I was talking about it, there was a few guys who overheard me and kind of, uh, pulled me aside and were like, what? What's going on? Why are you stopping drinking? And I said, I'm just. I'm just not happy. Like, doesn't give me what I want. And those guys also said, yeah, well, we're years and years out of it. We've been there. And I ended up then speaking to these guys every night at the bar and talking about it. And it just felt really nice to have a space where I could actually open up about everything that had happened without any judgment and to very clearly see and get reinforcement that life is going to be better without it.

Speaker B: Yeah. You had several people, it sounds like, who were there, uh, willing to have potentially hard conversations with you. Um, just curious if you have any thoughts on, on that idea of having hard conversations. Like, the two that I'm thinking of are your buddy, who, who very first was like, hey, I'm paraphrasing, but you gotta get your, you gotta get it together here. And then the other one, who I think wasn't there a second buddy kind of on, on your, the second part of your two week journey there, who kind of, uh, coaxed you along. Yeah, so I was thinking about both of those people. I mean, that takes a real, like, it takes a really good friend who's to be willing to say, look, man, you're not okay, and I'm worried about you and. Because even if that's not the way that they said it, like that's what they're saying, hey, I care about you. Yeah, take care of yourself.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, he definitely didn't say it as politely as that. Uh, but, um. But I know that's what he meant because. Yeah, it's right. You know, it's, it's a difficult thing to say. And, you know, I think about it in reverse at that time. If I'd seen one of my friends struggling, would I have said the same thing? And I don't know if I would have. So, you know, I'm, I'm going to be eternally grateful for not only the friend that first said that to me, but also my colleague that refused that drink.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That I tried to go for. Without those two guys, I'm sure I probably would have still ended up stopping, but maybe it wouldn't have happened for months or even years if I just forgotten that period of, yeah, it's fine. And you never know what happened then. Maybe I would have then lost my job and things would have spiraled. And I'm very grateful for the way everything played out because it's, it's granted me the life that I have now.

Speaker B: I think that's a really unique and valuable perspective to be able to have to be able to say to be able to have gratitude for those things, even the hard things. You know, I'm thinking about those two guys or, uh, the other guys that you had conversations with where you. They. They're like, hey, I heard you're stopping drinking. We've been there. And then they kind of. I mean, it feels like they kind of became. They were your support group. I mean, was this, you know, the, the very, very v. One of the te Total group? Or was this just, uh, or is this just some. Some buddies who were helping you out?

Speaker A: It was definitely an inspiration. Both those guys were in a. So they even took me to a couple of meetings, and an old friend of mine also took me to a meeting. So I tried a few 12 step meetings of, uh, Alcoholics Anonymous. And the one thing I did take from it was just how refreshing it was after spending years having all of this chaos inside my own head swirling around, that there was a space that I could just open up and be honest with no negative repercussions. And everyone in that room totally understood what I was saying because they had been there too. That, for me, was an incredibly weightlifting experience and just such a relief. And that was something which I took with me. However, there was a lot of things about those meetings and that program that didn't align with me. And even the guys that were helping me, you know, one was 11 years out of it, the other was 17 years out of it, and they still attended meetings almost daily. And I remember thinking, you know, I will do anything to get out of this. I don't want this lifestyle anymore. But if I've got to sit in meetings which feel very, very heavy emotionally, and I've got to fight daily for the next 17 years, that seemed even more exhausting than drinking. I was like, I don't know if I want that. So then I thought, you know what I want to figure out? There must be. And I guess this was the mindset I had. I thought, there must be another way to do this. There must be a way in which I can break this habit that doesn't rely on me having to sit in a cold church for an hour every day listening to all of people's worst times, because that I took on a lot of it. You know, I don't know if it was being overly empathetic, but I felt everyone's pain in that room. It was really heavy. And if anything, we, me and anyone else who has habits like that use substances as an escape, as a release because of some sort of discomfort or pain. If we are Adding more pain and more emotions, we are more likely to then go and use the substance again, which is why you see a lot of people leaving those meetings and going and drinking or doing coke. And I remember thinking, there's got to be another way to do this. And yeah, that's where I went on, on my own journey.

Speaker B: Let's talk about it now, if you don't mind. Let's talk about how you went about just figuring this and discovering it. I mean, because, I mean, AA program is been around forever. Um, I love that you were like, yeah, this, this is great. I could see that it works. But for me, I don't think this is going to get me what I need to do, but I could figure out something else. So how did you figure it out?

Speaker A: I think, uh, even, you know, looking back now, the idea that I did that, I don't know if it was stubbornness, ego, stupidity, because everyone's like, oh, this is, this is the program that works. This is what, this is what has helped millions of people. But I was still like, I just, I don't want to do it. You know, almost like a petulant child. I'm like, no, I don't want to do that. I will, I'll figure out another way. And anyway, the first thing I recognized was I need to get out of here. Like, I was in London, I was in that job, and I was like, I need a change of scenery. I want to, need to be around different people, different mindset. I want to see the world. So I set myself a bit of a financial goal. I'm like, I need a bit of cash to do this. Which was a lot easier when you weren't spending as much as I was on drinking and substances. I spent another 6, 7 months working in that bar every night, not a drop, nothing. Which was like, it really got me used to being in an environment where people drink very quickly without drinking myself. So I was, I got really good at saying no, avoiding drinks. And it just got very comfortable being in that environment. But after six, seven months, I decided to leave and I got a one way ticket. I came out to Southeast Asia and I just spent a year traveling around. And it wasn't just traveling. Obviously traveling was a huge part and I wanted to see the world. I met m a lot of amazing people, but I, more than anything, just wanted two things. Number one, I wanted to be fully by myself. I wanted to be in my own head for extended periods of time. And the second thing was I wanted to seek discomfort. I wanted to Put myself in positions to figure out what are my limits, what can I achieve, what am I willing to put up with. And I remember thinking at the end of that year, I'm going to figure out exactly what I value and therefore I'll know exactly what I want to do for my work, my career, my purpose. And after a year of traveling, I had no idea. So I went back to London and I got a similar job. I opened a new place and I started working and I thought, I just need to make some money and I'll see where this goes. And within a few weeks it was February 2020, which as we all know was a pretty wild turning point for the world. We got locked down and what was meant to be just a few months working in London before I try and escape again, turned into being two and a half years. And that was two and a half years of running a bar, living in London as a non drinker. I'd already done my time elsewhere, I'd found out who I was, I spent a lot of time with myself. And as those months, years went on in London, I just started more, to grow more and more sure that this was not the place for me. I don't align with people as much, I have a different view of the world. It felt like I'd seen something that I couldn't unsee. And because of that I could see there is an opportunity for me to create a life that I truly align with and I'll do anything to get there. And so again I worked, I saved some money and I decided to move back out to Asia. And when I did, I thought right now I need to figure out what is it I want to do. And I did think back and I think, do you know what I really, really enjoyed? I enjoyed exercising, I enjoyed looking after myself. Uh, so I thought I'm going to be a personal trainer. So before I left London, I got my diploma. I'd been training a few clients for a while and when I came out to Asia, I thought I'm going to be a pt, but obviously I don't know anyone here so let me try and put something online. So I started putting posts up online of training and trying to get people involved. Even tried to run an online workout which no one showed up to. Safe to say it wasn't going very well. And then one day, it was actually my four year anniversary of no drink, no drugs, no cigarettes. And a friend of mine convinced me to do a video for Instagram where I just talked to the camera and it was it was less than a minute long. And basically I said that, uh, today I'm celebrating four years and the most rewarding part of this is actually helping other people. So if anyone out there is struggling and you want someone to chat to send me a message. And I was actually terrified to put the video out. Like it was really, really nerve wracking. But I did it. And by the time I got back to my phone, it was incredible how many people I knew who I thought were absolutely fine had messaged me saying they were struggling just like I was. And that was kind of the beginning of me saying, well, do you know what? Let me make a few more videos. So I started making a few videos. I started enjoying making videos. People really started relating and resonating and eventually people started reaching out and wanting me to help them, which at that point I had no idea how to. I knew what I'd done for me. So I started kind of formulating and putting things together and saying this is what helped me. And I even created an online course where I made all these videos and I told everyone this is what I did. And that wasn't working really for the people that were on it. So I thought, let me, let me have a chat with a few people. So I. Then I spent months speaking to people for 12 hours a day. I had nothing to offer. I wasn't selling anything to anyone. I'm like, I just want to know where you're at. I want to try and get some data. I did that for months and months. And over those months, I started to see, uh, the pattern. I started to see what people needed, what they lacked, the mistakes they were making, and started refining that into a system. And it was early 2023. I created what is now the Teetotal Trail, which is an online global coaching community where we help people all over the world to break their habits for good.

Speaker B: I love that I'm curious about your time alone, but, uh, back to the early part of that story. Did you, Was it, Did you. Was there anything more, Was there anything more to your structure outside of those two, those two things that you said, which is, I want to be alone and I want to seek out discomfort. Or was that, Was that really all it was? And also how terrifying was that to think about being alone? Like just alone for an entire year?

Speaker A: Oh, it was pretty scary. Yeah, it was, it was scary. Do you know what? It was funny because when I first flew out there, uh, a friend of mine, I started in India. So I flew from London to India and a Friend of mine said, I've got a bit of time off. I'll come with you for a little bit. So he was with me for about a week, which was quite a nice, you know, comfort blanket to being out there. And, like, it felt really nice. But I remember so vividly the day that he left, because I'd never been that far away from the UK in my life. And when he left, I felt incredibly alone. And I actually started to feel quite scared, like I don't know where I am. I don't know how this all works. What if something happens to me? And my. There's still the anxiety in my brain. Was, was. Was still there. And I think the hardest thing for me was the social side, because I was. I was staying in this hostel and I kind of went inside and I remember just feeling really scared. And someone came over. I think there was a guy. Then he came over and he said, oh, we're all going to have a drink down at the bar here if you want to join us. And I said, yes, I'll be there in a few minutes. And I never went. I went back to my room because I was. I was too anxious to, uh, to meet people. And I ended up just going to sleep in my room about half an hour before 20 people barged in with all their drinks. And then they saw me and were like, oh, my God, what's he doing in bed? And I felt like such an old man, you know, 28 years old, 29. I was like, I'm just so done with that drinking lifestyle. And, uh, yeah, it was. Even at the time, I didn't realize I was necessarily looking for discomfort. I think deep down I knew I was. I was just. I was just pushing myself. And I just, you know, it's one of those things where it's be careful what you wish for. Because I knew that I wanted the challenge. But whenever I was in the thick of the challenge, I was like, I don't know if I regret this now. Like, what am I doing? This is crazy. And over the course of that year, I traveled a lot, and there were certain places I went to that did make me think, okay, maybe you've gone a bit too far here, Will. Maybe this is a bit much. Get back to safety. But overall, it was some of the most incredible memories I've ever made in my life. And I learned a lot of lessons in that year.

Speaker B: So you feel like it served its purpose. I mean, you said when you came home, you. You did, you know, you knew who you were, you Knew what you wanted. You knew?

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, yeah, I like that. And you know, I think, I think a lot of people would feel exactly the same if they were to be dropped into an environment where they've got to, they've got to fend for themselves, they've got to figure out who they are and they, they remove themselves from their social circle, from their friends, from their family, they get away from their devices and you just sit with yourself. And it's a, it's a deeply uncomfortable thing to do. And it's actually one of the, I guess the premises of how we work in the program is, is getting people to reconnect with themselves and be able to sit with themselves and recognize what's going on. But in day to day life in the Western world, it just, it's, it's very difficult because you're busy with work or the kids or your business or you've got to train or you got to sleep or you're going to be on your phone and no one really gives themselves the time anymore.

Speaker B: So I don't want to give away the secret sauce of the program, but can we talk a little bit about some of the things that people can do to try to connect, to connect with themselves?

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. I think I am, um, always someone that wants to give away as much secret sauce as possible. Because the reality, and this is what most people think when they're struggling with drink or drugs. Most people are like, just tell me how, I just need to know how. It's basically saying I need information to intellectually solve this problem. And the thing is we live in a world of information. You can go on AI and ask it anything, you're going to get information. The secret to uh, what we do is not information. Of course we have insights from our own experience which are really, really helpful. But the biggest thing is accountability. Because being alone doesn't give you accountability. Being with AI doesn't give you accountability. Being in a community of like minded people all achieving or aiming for the same goal, that's what gives you accountability. And you get more accountability, the more honest you are. So it's really important that the space that you find you feel not necessarily comfortable, but able to be honest. And the more that you are honest, the more comfortable you become. So that's the premise I found through all of those calls and all the data that I found that you need four things to fully break a habit, which is you need a community of like minded people. You need accountability to stick to what you said you're going to do. You need insight to shift your perspective and see your situation differently. And you also need a good self care routine. You need to look after your body and your mind, uh, and be able to sit with yourself so that the substances themselves become irrelevant.

Speaker B: What does that self care routine look like for you?

Speaker A: I think it's changed over the years a little bit. But I started taking a few little different things which when I first started my first year was don't drink, don't do drugs and just try and get in the gym. Just try and exercise, be more consistent. And then after I kind of got my exercise consistently I was like, I started getting quite stressed and I thought, okay, well I'm training my body but I feel like I now need to train my mind. So I started learning how to meditate and I started sitting with myself. So that became a part of the plan. Then I started looking at my diet and how much the food I'm eating affects everything. And then I started looking at my sleep and I was like, how much is my sleep affecting? And it was almost by like taking years and years of looking at each different area I could notice what was making me feel better, what was making me operate better, what was causing anxiety, what was causing stress. And over time started to change each of these habits to the point where now the things that make me feel the best exercise, a good night's sleep, good food and meditation, those are like the main ones. But there's also journaling, there's breathwork, there's saunas and cold plunges. I still do those intermittently. And out of all those things, probably the most consistent is exercise. I exercise a lot, but even now I'm eight years out of it and I'm not always consistent. There's days when I forget to meditate and there's days when I forget to do everything. And all that happens is after a day or two I go, oh, I don't feel too good. Okay, let me jump back on that. And it's, you know, I having the community as well and having my own community of very close like minded friends. We hold each other accountable and you know, we all know and like you say, a friend wants what's best for the other friend. So a good friend will tell them if they are, uh, if they're drinking too much, if they feel like they're, they're worried about them. And that happens even when you're not drinking. You know, you see someone, you go, you told me you want to achieve this goal. I want to push you to do it. That's a good friend.

Speaker B: That is a good friend. I like them. What's your meditation practice look like? Is that just. Are you, uh. Do you. Do you like a guided meditation, or are you just. Because I feel like meditation can mean so many different things to different people. Some people are like, hey, I sit on a pillow or I sit in my place. For. I just. It's. For some people, it's just I sit quiet for X period of time. Some people are like, I sit and I write down my thoughts. Or. I mean, there. There are a lot of different variations of it. Just. Chris, if you don't mind what works for you.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's true. And, you know, whenever anyone wants to get into that in our program, we try to uncomplicate it as much as possible. And for me, when I first started, you know, I even. I remember Googling. How do you meditate? Because I had no idea what to do. And it was like, sit comfortably. Just detach from your thoughts. If. If you're thinking about something, let it go. Let it go past like a cloud. And I tried it and it was. It was amazing. But over the years, that changed. And sometimes I would listen to guided meditations. Usually the first. The first year or two, I was listening to a lot of guided meditations. But as time went on, I got more and more comfortable just sitting in stillness. And now, you know, I usually aim for 10 minutes in the morning where I'll just sit with myself. And it's. It kind of changes day to day. Sometimes I'm, um, very focused on just bringing my attention back and being there and bringing my attention back and being present. Sometimes I let my mind just go. And I'm like, clearly my mind wants to think about something like a dog on a leash. I'm like, go, go, go and explore what. And, you know, like, for instance, this morning I. I did 10 minutes, and for the majority of the time, my mind was thinking about something that I've got to organize with my team later today. And it's almost, you know, I can almost sometimes see it as a bit of an admin time for me in my life where it's like I sit down with all of the other different versions of me in my mind to be like, right, what's, what's important? And I give everyone a chance to speak. And it's usually in that moment I go, ah, uh, I remember I've got to do that. Or this is what my priority is today. So it can also be a little bit Of a productive time just to be more focused and organized. But, uh, you know, every time I meditate consistently, Huge declines in overthinking, stress, reactivity, anxiety.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for going there. You know, I made a connection just now in my mind. You were saying about how, you know, you kind of sit with the different people in your. In your mind, so to speak. And I was skipping back to an early part of your story where you were talking about how there's this. There are these two voices in your head, the good and the bad, that were like, don't do this and do this. I mean, was there a process? And what I heard you when, uh, the way I heard you describe kind of, you know, as you're thinking through the different thoughts in your head, felt like, you know, kind of all the different thoughts, they were kind of getting along, working together, and everyone's friends. That's what I was thinking. I feel like this feels like they're all kind of friends. Was there a process for you to figure out how to kind of, you know, make friends with the, uh, the good and the bad voice at the same time in your head? Because, like, everybody has that right. We all have those. Those opposites, yes.

Speaker A: So I actually came up with something when I first started building the trail to help people understand those two voices. We have to understand that there are two parts of the brain at play here, which commonly known as the higher brain and the lower brain. And the higher brain is the more conscious part. The part that, you know, if someone was on a call with me now saying, I want to stop drinking, that's coming from the conscious part of the brain. But the habit resides in a much more primal part of the brain, which is the same part of our brain that tells us when we're hungry, we're angry, we're tired, and it will treat the habit like it's life or death. So I used to say to people, there's two parts of your brain at play here, right? The part that we want to be communicating on is the higher brain. So that's you. You know, if it was you, I'd say, okay, this is Jeff. But there's another part of your brain, and we need to recognize that that is not you. It's not the person that's speaking to me. Now. We need to personify that part, uh, of your brain by giving them a name. So I would sometimes encourage that, maybe give it a name of someone who you're not a fan of, maybe someone who maybe bullied you a bit at school. For some reason, mine is called Bob. And, uh, well, I know why he's called Bob. Because when I used to get really drunk, my friends used to come up with that nickname for me and be like, yo, Bob was out last night. I don't know why Bob was the name, but I used that and I utilized it. And I thought, you know what? Every time that voice comes into play that is not aligned with me and my goals right now, I can recognize that's Bob. And Bob will be incredibly sneaky to try and trip me up. So, for instance, someone's in a call with me, and they say, I'm done. I don't want to go back to it ever again. That's them talking. That's the higher brain. In two days, that voice that goes, maybe it wasn't that bad. That's Bob. That's Bob trying to come back out. And once I started to recognize it almost. It almost made it so much easier because I would. There's an amazing book called the Little Book of Big Change. And they had a really interesting concept that, uh, you're the one driving the car. You're holding the wheel, but your alter ego is screaming in your ear, telling you which way to turn, how fast to go. And for so long, you've just always assumed that you have to listen to that voice. You have to listen to the backseat driver. Whatever they want isn't the way we go. And a lot of our practice comes into. We can recognize the voice, but we don't have to respond to it just because Bob is screaming, turn left. We don't have to turn left. Don't see it as urgent. Don't see it as life or death. Just don't do it and see what happens. And every time you go through one of those moments where you don't turn the way that they want you to turn, they get quieter and quieter and quieter. And over time, they get so quiet, they actually just decide to leave the car. And that's how I see it now. Bob has left the car. I don't get any thoughts or voices telling me, oh, maybe it wasn't that bad, or maybe you should have a drink. So that part of my brain, the lower brain, the primal part, where it lived, is now fully rewired. There's nothing in there that tells me that I need a drink.

Speaker B: That's tremendous. Do you have any idea of how. Yes, totally. Thank you. Do you have any idea of how long that took you to do a, uh, complete rewiring? Do you remember, like, a time when this is kind of the last time I saw Bob, or is it just, uh, it's been gone so long?

Speaker A: No, I remember very specifically so in the first few months, there were opportunities that were presented to me where I could have drank or I could have done coke. And some of them were like skin of my teeth getting through, like easily could have gone the other way. In a moment of complacency or weakness, I could have easily just picked up that note and sniff that line or picked up that drink. But I managed to get through them one by one. And every time I got through them, it felt like I'd kind of ranked up. And I felt a bit more proud of every time I did it. And over time they got fewer and far between. So what used to be like, oh, I'd feel a bit of a trigger. Maybe every three days was suddenly every three weeks, and then it was every three months. And the final time I was sat in next to a swimming pool in Thailand, overlooking this beautiful valley and there was a load of people around. And then this guy came and sat next to me and he sat down with a fresh beer. It was a cold, crisp beer. It was a hot day. And I just got a whiff of the beer and I just smelt it. And the instant reflex in my mind was, God, that'd be really refreshing. Which I knew was Bob. That part of my brain going, oh, that'd be really nice. And almost without me consciously thinking about it, a second voice came in and went, nah, nah, we don't do that anymore. That's never gonna happen. And I remember seeing that as Bob's last attempt, because after that, I never ever romanticized drinking ever again. I never had any cravings. I never feared missing out on anything. And that was it. And that was 10 months. So 10 months in was the last time there was ever anything. And now, eight years down the line, it's gone completely.

Speaker B: It's interesting that it's interesting that it was 10 months, right? I mean, that that's kind of a, uh. It. Tell me. I might get. I'm only basing this on my research, but I think my research said that 10 months was kind of a consistent number for a lot of people. Is that true? Is it? So this is your first date. This is just your first data point that, Hey, 10 months works for me. But it turns out that 10 months is the magic number for everyone else.

Speaker A: I didn't realize that at the time. I was like, it took me 10 months. And when I first started the program and People started wanting coaching and help from me. I just used to do a month, and I'd be, all right, let's just have a month. You know, it can be like a bit of a springboard to put you in the right direction. And I would work with people and we'd do a month, and we'd make some good progress. Then they'd feel great and they go, right, I'm done. And I thought, okay, great. Go and enjoy your life. And consistently, they'd come back and go. I went back to it, and I'm like, but we were doing so good. And I go, okay, maybe we need more. Okay, let's do two months. So we do two months. And they'd go and come back and, uh, that, like, obviously reflecting now, it should have been obvious that it's like, Will, it's 10 months. Start your coaching doing 10 months. But again, anyone who's in a bad position, a lot of people think, I don't want to do 10 months. That's a long time. And, you know, most people, you know, nowadays, we're all looking for a quick fix, right? And the irony of looking for a quick fix is usually we're so impatient, we never get the fix at all because we just want it to be so quick. And what happened was, over time, I started to notice that people needed longer and longer and longer. And I started to reframe it for people saying, how long have you drank for? And, uh, let's say they say, I've been drinking for 25 years. I'm like, okay, so you've been conditioning a habit for 25 years. Your brain is getting used to it again and again for 25 years. What if it took 25 years to unravel it fully? 25 more years. So from starting drinking to fully being free of it is a max, is a total of 50 years. That's. That's. That's your whole life. Whereas the beauty of this is you can change your brain within a year. Suddenly, it doesn't feel so long, right? Because there's no alternatives. You either carry on as you are, or we do a, uh, 10 to 12 months of work and you're out of it. And of course, you know, what's the date today? So let's say we're in July now, uh, to tell someone, oh, you want to stop. You want to stop drinking? Well, I'll tell you what, we'll be done by early next year is kind of like, whoa, that's. That's a long time to wait. And you Go well, it's also. It's not like you wait and everything's bad until that day. Things could get better from today. Things could feel better from right now. However, to make sure it's stuck and it will stay that way, we have to keep working until early next year. And I think that's what's really, really important. And, you know, it's easy. I see guys online that say, let's do five sessions and you'll be done for good. And I'm like, people who think that you can rewire the brain that quickly are either lying or they don't know what they're talking about. And there were studies in Harvard, in the US that found that rewiring the brain takes 10 months. We always say 12 months. We do a full year because we want to be sure, we want to be certain, which is why we have such a high success rate. But it takes time.

Speaker B: Yeah. Anything worthwhile does though, right? Anything worthwhile. Yeah. Quick fixes are. Quick fixes are not permanent, generally, I don't think.

Speaker A: Yeah, agreed.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you talked about having a success rate, and you've had a tremendous success rate. Right. I mean, if people complete the program, it's, uh, it's like, I don't actually want to speak to it, but what I thought I read is like, it's pretty darn good.

Speaker A: Yeah. So the data at the minute is showing that anyone who's been part of the program and committed consistently for 12 months is. We have a 98.4% success rate. Which is, which is kind of wild. When we, when we first got. When we started, you know, started tracking data and seeing results, obviously there are a lot of people who do not stay consistent for 12 months.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: So the less someone does in the program, the lower the success rate is. So the whole idea that is if someone is going to commit. Mhm. It's pretty much an inevitability. You will get there. And I think that's the point of. How do you make someone commit to it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, can you make someone commit or does it have to be a personal decision?

Speaker A: Well, do you know this is a question I also get usually from partners online where they say, how do I stop my husband drinking? And m. I say, does he want to stop? And they say, no. And you go, you can't. How can you make anyone do anything? Yeah, we don't convince people to stop drinking. We help the people that are ready to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And of course you can speed up the process. You know, I've seen a Lot of partners give their, give their husbands ultimatums and usually, well, a lot of times that doesn't work until their partner has actually left. But the same thing we spoke about earlier, the biggest, the best pre workout is insecurity. Right. So the biggest marker for change is painful. If someone's not in pain, they're not going to change. Which is also why I feel sorry for people who drink in moderation. Because the negative effects of alcohol can be so damaging even in small amounts. But the pain from that is never going to be big enough to go against such a huge social stigma like drinking or not drinking. And I always see that someone who's taken it to the extreme is the lucky one because they have no option, they have to stop. And when you do stop, life gets exponentially better, unfairly better.

Speaker B: That's such an interesting perspective to look at, To look at the severity of the problem as a gift. Mhm, it is though. I mean, I think that probably applies to a lot of things though. You know, like there's. Yeah. I had a conversation with a guy who, who he said trauma is a teacher. And he was talking about just the lessons that he's learned from some of his own traumas and the uh, and how it's a gift in his, in his eyes. And I was like, that's such an interesting perspective. And that this, what you're saying just now reminds me of that. And that like we can, you, you can power through a lot until, until something gets a breaking point. But it's at some point. But you don't like this. You don't necessarily learn a great lesson from a pebble in your shoe. It's just annoying. Right? Until it causes enough of a blister that you actually have to stop and take it out. You just sit there walking with a freaking pebble in your shoe thinking, I hate this stupid pebble in my shoe. You know, at some point it'll drive you nuts, you'll take it out, but has to reach a breaking point. I don't know. Yeah, I was also thinking about breaking point. Sorry, go ahead.

Speaker A: No, I was gonna say it's a great analogy because that's what I uh, that's how I'd see it. Moderation with alcohol is, is like a pebble in your shoe. Whereas going to the extreme like I did is like a boulder falling and snapping your leg. You gotta do something about it, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's. Yeah. You know, someone's curious about it. Through the 10 month program, do you find consistent like friction, uh, Points where you're like, okay, we see a lot of people struggle at, let's call it, I don't know, eight weeks. At eight weeks, there's a friction point, and we gotta be aware of this. And here's, uh. Uh, do you see consistent patterns emerge?

Speaker A: Yeah. And funnily enough, you hit the nail on the head, because that's one of the hardest points, is six to eight weeks, uh, which we call the Valley of the Shadows. And it's, you know, a lot of this is if it's committed to and done properly, there is. There is clear timing points along the journey and, you know, what people call the pink cloud, which is when you first stop and you've got such a stark comparison to the life you are living, the environment you're in to now. You've got a supportive community around you. You've got a team of coaches, people that care about you. You're starting to exercise again and sleep better and eat better. Like, it's hard not to feel incredible in those first six weeks. And this is where a lot of people can actually trip themselves up by being like, I feel great. Therefore, the habit is gone, which obviously is not true. And what happens is we go on this, like, upshoot of, like, life is getting better. I feel good. And then we start to plateau again. And that plateau is called the Valley of the Shadows, which is the point when we start to, uh, not feel as good and it just feels normal. And then we start to feel a bit of grief that we miss the old life, that we miss the old version of us. We miss the old behavior. And that's where Bob will come out and start to say, well, maybe it wasn't that bad. Look, you've proved you can do six weeks. You've proved that you can stop. You don't have a problem. You're not like all those people you see, like, you hear about that have problems. You're fine, go back and drink. And that six to eight period is where we see a lot of people slip up and maybe have a drink or. And every time they go back to it, they always say the same thing. Wish I didn't do that. That was awful. I hated it. I've never seen someone go back to it and say, do you know what? It was amazing. It was amazing. It was so much better than it used to be. That's never happened. Everyone regrets it, everyone hates it, but I always say that's. You had to do it. You had to go through that in order to recognize that your brain was Lying to you that you are romanticizing something which isn't meant to be romanticized. And, uh, most people have that slip, get back on track, and then never slip again. So sometimes I see that actually having a slip is actually really productive in the same way that all of the pain that I felt back in those days has led me to living the life that I have now. And I think, well, I'm incredibly grateful for that. I'm grateful for that pain because as a good friend of mine says, a smooth sea never made a skilled sailor. All of the skills that I have acquired is because it's been a pretty rough ocean.

Speaker B: Yeah, you mentioned grief just now. I associate, you know, grief with death and mourning. Is there a period where you have to mourn this part of your life, or is it. Is it not a morning? Is there no morning at all?

Speaker A: Yeah. Well done for spotting that, because it is something that most people don't appreciate or don't even expect that you are losing someone in this process. Obviously, in. Physically, you will lose people out of your life because no doubt you've made, uh, an environment that is incredibly conducive to drinking or drug taking. And, you know, when I was drinking, if one of my drinking buddies told me they were going to stop, I don't want to hang out with them. So you do lose people. But when I talk about grief or mourning someone, you are mourning a version of you, the version of you that you have been for years, that person you have to say goodbye to. And that actually can be really painful. And a lot of people struggle to let go of that version. And it's half because they are scared of who they're going to become without it and stepping into the unknown, but half because they don't want to lose certain aspects of that lifestyle. And I think I had that to an extent. Sometimes I would miss the idea of going down to the pub on a Saturday lunchtime with all my friends and high energy and good spirits, and you felt really connected with everyone. But of course, all of it is a package deal. You can't. I couldn't just have that moment and nothing else. But the. The funny thing is, as time goes on, you start to become more confident, you get more connected to yourself, and you start to meet people more aligned and get a deeper, uh, and greater sense of connection with them, much greater than I had in the pub with those friends at midday on a Saturday. And I realized that you can still have that connection even better. And therefore, further down the line, you can really recognize you didn't lose anything. You upgraded everything. But sometimes that upgrade just took a bit of time. And that upgrade in this situation is connection. But yeah, the version that we mourn and grieve is exactly the version we actually want to leave behind. Otherwise we wouldn't even be on the journey.

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for breaking it down like that. As you were talking just now, you were talking about kind of building this life where it's been comfortable to drink or do drugs. And uh, I think that takes time to do an effort. And did I remember right that you started drinking pretty early in your life? Right?

Speaker A: I guess that depends on, uh, what we compare it to. But yeah, fair enough. Thirteen is pretty young, I would say.

Speaker B: Well, so help me out with that because I thought, look, to me that seems young. But also we grew up in different countries and you know, even also like within, so I live in the States, but like certain places within the States like that, you know, that number gets lower and lower and lower. To be socially acceptable to, to start drinking, like was it is, is that pretty common? I mean, where you, where you grew up or.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely, definitely. In the uk, the drinking culture is, uh, I'd say pretty unique, but only slightly. I mean, doing what I do now, I realize that drinking, drugs are an issue everywhere. You know, we've, we've had conversations with people all over the world, but definitely, you know, especially growing up in the countryside, you know, my parents drank, their friends drank. I used to see all the adults around us drink. And you know, when you were a kid, you kind of get excited about that, like, oh, I can't wait to be an adult. Look at it. They, they drink coffee and they drink alcohol and you know, you'd see it as this mark of like, you know, I'm sure the same kind of feeling you get in a tribe somewhere in the world where, you know, they, they kill their first buffalo and it's like a transition that you are now a man. It kind of felt like that was, that was alcohol in the uk. It's like when you start drinking, it's like, right, you're turning into an adult. And it's funny because, you know, if we look at alcohol as a substance and compare it to, let's say cocaine as a substance, alcohol is more dangerous. It's more dangerous for the body, it's more dangerous for society, it causes more problems. And yet a 13 year old drinking to us was like, that's okay, just have a little sip, get used to it. But if you saw a 13 year old rolling up, uh, a banknote and sniffing a line of coke, you'd be like, this is horrific. This is child abuse. And it's a really, uh, interesting thought process because they're both simply just two different types of drug. One is a depressant, one's a stimulant, and one is far more dangerous, and that's the depressant. And yet that one is the one that we kind of go, uh, it's okay. They're just having a little. Because obviously alcohol is legal and it's marketed incredibly well that it makes it seem like it's okay. But of course, I remember having my first drink at 13 years old, and it was the first time I'd experienced feeling different to just normal. And, uh, I could feel that it was. It put me on a high. My body very, very much enjoyed the effects of alcohol.

Speaker B: I didn't. I didn't know that alcohol is. You could. That alcohol is worse for you than cocaine. I never. I, uh, didn't know that. And that's. That when he said that, that was like a light bulb more for me. Is it. It's just harder on your body, it's more damaging or more addictive or all of them.

Speaker A: Well, do you know what? I'm, um. I'm sure some of these stats may be slightly missed or maybe even outdated by now, but. And that's simply because in what I do, I never really demonize the substance, because when I'm working with people, it's not about the substance. You know, I used to treat. I used to treat coke the same way that I would treat sugar. And you realize it's, you know, sometimes if someone's like, oh, it's alcohol, I need to remove that. But then they have the same behavior with, with gambling. You go, well, it's not about the substance or the behavior. It's about that part of you that needs what it's trying to get from it. But even so, I found it really interesting, obviously, being in the industry that I'm in, to know more about it. And I remember a study came out that looked at the damaging effects to the user and to the environment of the user for every single drug. And alcohol was the highest for both by a very, very long way.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And that could be also because of how widely used it is, but more so that, you know, they look at. 50% of all murders involve alcohol. You have hit and runs, you have drunk drivers killing people. You have seven different types of cancer caused by alcohol. Obviously, if anything like this was brought to the Market now, it would be immediately disregarded. But because it's so ingrained socially. And I've got to say, the beauty of alcohol, if it ever had a purpose, is it keeps a human being incredibly subservient. And I found this interesting because you look at things like LSD or psilocybin and these are very, very mind expansive substances. They do not harm the user and rarely harm the environment of the user, and yet they are illegal. But something like alcohol, which is the most harmful drug on the planet, is not only legal, but it's promoted and celebrated and it's everywhere. So you realize that the agenda here, if there was one, if you wanted to keep an entire nation following orders, alcohol would be the drug of choice to use for that because it keeps people from thinking in a very, very effective way, like it did for me. But if something does promote people thinking outside of the, uh, let's say outside of the rules. Yeah, that wouldn't be a good one to, to promote too much. And again, this is just a conspiracy, it's just a thought, but it makes logical sense in my mind. You know, I kind of back with that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. That's a really great point. You're. I mean, yeah, there's a really great point. Have, have you had any experience and if you don't want to talk about this even if you had, but have you had any experience with, you know, any psychedelics at all? No.

Speaker A: You know what, it's probably, it's weird for me to say, but I kind of wish I had. The reason being one of the drugs that I hated and I mean I really disliked the effects was weed. I don't know what it was about me and my brain. I was very, very attracted to stimulants. I liked ecstasy, mdma, cocaine. Those are things that my brain seemed to enjoy. But even weed would put me into such a dark headspace that I, I never ever wanted to experience that ever again. And I also knew, and it was probably self fulfilling in my head as well, that if I did anything that was a psychedelic, it would not be the pleasant experience that everyone else seems to have. I know that my mind would probably take me somewhere darker and I don't know why I knew that, probably from my experience with weed, but so I never, I never did them, I never, I never found the appeal for them. But obviously now, obviously doing a lot of the work I do and looking at a lot of the studies, there's a lot of benefits to the brain from psilocybin and I also feel like even now, years down the line and uh, a uh, change in my mind. I've not been anything other than present and here for eight years now. So something that would take me to another dimension would also probably be anxiety inducing for me now. And if there was a point in my life where it felt like there is a real problem, that the solution could be psilocybin potentially that would be open for exploration. But I don't see that because, you know, I run a program called the Teetotal Trail. Teetotal. Being totally abstinent. I love the idea of trying to handle and being able to handle any of the thoughts or emotions through nothing else but the tools we have, which is our own mind.

Speaker B: It's probably empowering to know that you already have the tools or to learn that you already have the tools to be successful with what you're working on here within you. They're in your body, they're in your mind. You just have to figure out how to access them.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: That's neat. So I was curious about the name you mentioned, the Teetotal Trail. It's a two part question. One is how did you come with the name? And uh, two is when, when would the substance be something that is like not, not okay, the tea. Like uh, from that, like are any stimuli like it, like are you guys, are you okay to drink coffee? Is that okay coffee or tea or, or, or anything like that? Or is it, or is that too much of a stimulant? Is that out?

Speaker A: Okay, good question. I'm going to start with number one, the tea total trail. So one thing I never liked was the term sober or sobriety because it always signified that sober is like a cold word. Like when someone says something is sobering, it's like cold and you're back to reality and it's not nice. Like that's, that's not how I want to describe me. I want to see it another way. I want to see that I've removed something that was negative and now life is so much more fulfilling and warm and exciting. Sober didn't do that justice. And there's quite a, there's quite a strong uh, connotation with sober that to be sober something must have gone really wrong. Like you've had to do this. Whereas I liked the word teetotal because it's more about being present. Like teetotal is, is a uh, sign to say that I just don't drink alcohol. Doesn't say anything about my past, doesn't say anything it's just like, I'm teetotal. Like, I don't drink. And I liked the word teetotal. And I started to think about. I liked the idea of alliteration, but I didn't want to just come up with any word because of it. And I'm like, what would be another word? And I thought of the teetotal trail. And then I started thinking about that time that I went up the mountain, the day that I decided to change. And I started thinking, because there was a trail up the mountain. And that was a really significant moment for me. And even when I created the logo, it's of that mountain that I. That I climbed up. So a lot of people don't know that about why that looks like that. But that was kind of in my head of like, the teetotal trail. And we use it as an analogy on the program of, like, different stages. So you obviously start at base camp, then you're on the ascent, then you go to the summit, then you're at the peak, then you're over the peak. And there's like, different stages we use to kind of help people have a tangible system to work through. That was where the name came from. And then the second question, which is really interesting, is what substances are okay and, uh, what are not okay? And I found this interesting on my journey because I stopped drinking, I stopped doing drugs, or let's say I stopped doing coke. And then actually, at my place of work, there was a guy who came, uh, up to me and said, listen, this weekend we're going to go to the countryside and we're going to do some magic mushrooms. Do you want to join us? And I said, oh, no, it sounds amazing, but I can't. I. I've actually just stopped drinking. And he looked at me really confused, and he's like, oh, uh, no, we're not drinking. We're doing mushrooms. And I went. And he said, why? What's. I, uh, don't get it. And I kind of. I kind of stood there and I went, I don't get it. Like, what. What are my rules? And I kind of went away with that. I didn't. I didn't obviously go and do the mushrooms, but I started thinking, I'm telling people I'm stopping drinking, but what am I actually trying to tell them? And I realized I'm trying to say that I don't want to alter my mindset. And even though doing mushrooms would never lead me to drink or coke, like, I don't think there's any link there at all. I don't think I would enjoy it. I don't think I enjoy not being there. So when I started this program, I was like, I want to help people with the substances that I have personal experience with, which is alcohol and cocaine. And sometimes people come to us and they say, well, it's alcohol, cocaine, and it's meth, or it's weed or it's gambling. And I always say, well, look, we focus on those two substances. If you want to partake in other substances outside of that, that's not on us. However, uh, it might not align with the approach we have, right? So, for instance, someone says, I'm struggling with cocaine, but alcohol's fine. Like, I don't have a problem with drinking. So I say, what if the only way to create a life so good that cocaine becomes irrelevant is by also removing alcohol? Are you then willing to do it? And if someone says, no, I want to keep drinking, I say, well, we're not right for you then. And it's as simple as that, because we have to create an environment where the people inside of it who are trying to give something up can't see another person celebrating it. And this happened recently where there was a guy in our community who was trying to give up coke and alcohol, but at one point, he glorified cannabis. And there's people on the program who are trying to stop weeds. And I said, that's not right for us. It's not wrong. Uh, who am I to say what's wrong or right? But it's not aligned with what we do here. And I think that's it. Because the whole point of how we work is to create a life so good that the substances become irrelevant. It's almost like saying, yeah, I want to stop these two, but I want to hold on to this one here. And it's like, I think we're not aligned in what we're trying to achieve here, because to be free of everything is basically saying, I'm in such a good place. I don't need to alter my mental reality or I can sit with my emotions in any way. I don't need a substance

Speaker B: that makes sense. I like that. I like that you mentioned gambling. Does the approach work? Let's say someone came to you and was like, um, I'm, you know, I'm just add. I'm addicted to gambling. And they didn't have any other addictions. Does. Does the program work for that?

Speaker A: The approach works.

Speaker B: The program

Speaker A: is debatable. The reason why the approach works because what people need to break a habit is a community of like minded people. Accountability, insight and self care. The program itself is predominantly alcohol and coke. So if a gambler comes in and um, don't get wrong, like we've got a lot of people who gamble in the program or were gambling, but that was part of their, everything else they were doing. If someone only had gambling, they would come in and if we're hosting a call talking about alcohol or coke, they'll be like, I uh, don't fully relate to this. And number one, you have to have a community of like minded people achieving the same goal. They would feel a little bit disconnected and just to be a little bit disconnected might not give them the results. We do have a lot of people reaching out with gambling so there is a potential that we actually create another branch of this which is gambling only focused because the approach would work. We just have to have the specific program aligned for those people. But if we just get one person reaching out and saying, I'm struggling, I can put one person in this branch but they've got no one else in there so they might leave and then I go, I get another one. So I've got to almost wait to have uh, enough people to be like, let's get everyone in there, we've got a new branch and we can, we can go ahead with that. Which is kind of what happened with, with the coke and alcohol.

Speaker B: That makes sense. Uh, but that's super interesting to realize that, that, that importance of having like minded people or yeah, similar interested people. Was the word used like minded. Was that what you said, like minded people or.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah,

Speaker B: that, that's, you know, I was having a conversation earlier today with um, ah, about how no one likes to feel alone, you know, about how feeling alone is like so overwhelming. It's like one of the most overwhelming things to some people. Some people love it, right? So like I need to leave me alone. But to some people it feels really overwhelming. And is that just what it is that you know, to have someone who's going through what you're going through, who's with you at the same time, you just don't feel alone?

Speaker A: I think especially when it comes to drinking and cocaine, it puts you in such a lonely place because as the shame grows of what you're doing, you hide it more and more and it feels like you're living this incredibly secretive life and no one truly knows what's going on. So that first step, like the amount of people that reach out to me to share that is such a privilege that they feel trusted and safe to be able to share it. And just hearing someone else say, oh, yeah, I've been there myself, is like that same feeling I had at that first AA meeting where it was like all of this weight was just released and I'm like, oh, it's not just me. And I think that's what a lot of people need more than anything at the beginning is just to realize they're not alone in this. You know, even if they, they look at my page, they look at the amount of people following and commenting and liking that all people who you can relate to, you're far from alone. And I think this is why community is so important. Because being in a space that makes, uh, you feel normal after years of feeling abnormal is incredibly powerful.

Speaker B: Wow. Yeah, well said. You mentioned shame just now. The shame that goes with this. I feel like shame is so powerful. What's the antidote to shame in that situation?

Speaker A: I think, uh, it is exactly that. It's sharing. It's sharing with someone who understands. Because, you know, one of the things we talk about a lot, we have a men only group and we talk about specific things that only our, uh, male members will know about. And that can be porn, prostitution, gambling. And these are all highly shameful habits to be involved in. And sometimes all it takes is one person to share their experience and everyone will start sharing theirs. And you can see the shame dissipate in people because they found that space where it's like, we're not being judged and shame comes from feeling judged. So if they find a space where they're not judged and where it feels normal, it's again, just so powerful at, uh, breaking down that shame.

Speaker B: That answer is simple in ways, but also I'm just thinking, man, that's not an easy task to build a, uh, space where people feel comfortable doing that. I just want to acknowledge that because I think you're really having an impact in people's lives. And to build a space like that especially, I. I'm guessing a lot of this is done virtually, so.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, that's really impressive and really impactful, changing people's lives. Yeah, that's. That's cool.

Speaker A: I appreciate that. Huh?

Speaker B: Yeah. So let me see here. Just. Yeah, here's. Here's a question I had. So I heard you tell a story about how in my show prep, about how there was kind of this voice in your head for a couple of years before you decided to get sober that was kind of nagging at you. Or telling you that you needed to change. And I was curious if there's ever been any other times in your life when you've had a similar kind of heard that similar voice. I'm guessing this was not Bob giving you this. This voice, but, um, something else was telling you that you need to change. Have there ever been any other instances where you've, you know, just. Just felt compelled to do something and felt that calling from the. Your inner voice?

Speaker A: Interesting question. I. I remember that voice, like, really, really just being at the back of my mind so many times, and eventually I brought it how I would say the unconscious conscious. Has there been other times where that has happened? I believe so. I believe it happened a lot since then. With every. Let's say, every major change or risk or decision I've made can sometimes be the culmination of that voice. However, it's usually a lot faster. I'm a lot faster now at taking action on something, Whereas back then I sat for years knowing that what I was doing wasn't right. And, um, because I wasn't used to putting the reps in of taking action. Now if I feel something's not right, I'm very good at being like, oh, I can sense something. Let me sit with it. Let me m. Bring it up. Let me make the unconscious conscious. I can recognize that what would be the solution to this? That's what it is. Let's take action. And that is one of the greatest skills that we teach people is how to make and take quick action on things that aren't serving you anymore. Because that's a skill not just for stopping drinking. What we do is we prep people for skills for the rest of their life. And being able to take fast action on something that isn't serving you in your life is only going to serve you the most valuable resource we have, which is time, because we can't get that back. So the sooner we act, the better.

Speaker B: Is that just a, uh, skill that you get better at by doing more reps, or is there something else that helps with that?

Speaker A: I would challenge that. Every skill is only better by doing reps in the same way. Like, however simple we want to make this, to get good at drinking and get good at taking drugs, you've got to put the reps in, right? So the amount of reps that people put in. You know, I say to people, if you had played chess as many times as you've done drugs, how good would you be at chess? And they're like, I'd be. I'd Be a grandmaster. And I'm like, okay. So we have to accept that your brain has done something so many times, it's become very, very good at doing it, which means you're very good at getting triggered. You're very good at feeling the reward. We're very good at this habit loop. What if it's simply we've got to do the same amount of reps in the opposite direction? Maybe not the same amount, but we just have to put reps in the other way. So over those years, you haven't shared how you feel, Right? So now we have to share how we feel. The first time you share in the group with a bunch of. At the beginning, they're strangers, how you feel, it's incredibly scary. But you do that again and again and again and again, and suddenly you can't wait to jump on the call and chat and you know everyone. You're like, hey, guys. Yeah, this is what my day was like. This is the challenge. This is the win. And it suddenly becomes a lot easier. Sharing is a muscle. All of this is just a skill that takes repetition after repetition. And the only way that we can stay consistent with putting the reps in is not with motivation, but it's with accountability. So on the days where you really don't feel like doing it, you are held accountable to do it by me and my team.

Speaker B: I like that. Is there, uh, you know, you've done this a little bit of a subject change, but you've done both of these things. Is there any connection from your view in, uh, the difficulty in quitting substance and the difficulty in quitting your stable job?

Speaker A: There is, and I would say it's getting comfortable with the unknown. Both can cause pain in different ways. And in order to change that, you step into uncertainty. And this is where a lot of people really struggle, because I remember hearing this phrase that, uh, most people will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven. So even if what is guaranteed or promised at the end result is what you dream of, because you are so uncertain with it, uh, your body will just go for familiarity, even if that familiarity is pain. Which is why a lot of people cannot be incredibly logical about stopping drinking. Even though they can see, they will feel better, their life will get better, everything gets better, they still choose the pain of going back to it. And that's because we. We love familiarity. So the way in which both of those are familiar, or let's say the skills in which you need are familiar, is you get comfortable stepping into the unknown, stepping into uncertainty. And seeing it through. Wow.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I like that. Well, this has been amazing. I think that people are really going to benefit a lot from this. If anyone wants to get in touch with you, uh, what's the best way to track you down?

Speaker A: I'd say the best way is through any of our social media. Probably the top one being Instagram. I'm actually called something different on there. I'm teetotal trainer, not teetotal trail. And that was because it started as I was a personal trainer before this and then I was teetotal trainer and then created the teetotal trailer. But Instagram, LinkedIn. I'm William Armstrong, YouTube teetotal trainer. TikTok. We're. We're kind of everywhere, but yeah, otherwise our website is teetotaltrail.com.

Speaker B: awesome. Well, I'll put all those links in, in the description. And yeah, man, this has been. This has been super great. I. I learned so much tonight. I just genuinely appreciate you jumping on and sharing your time and just. You're doing a great service to people, man. I think this is a really, really impactful thing. Thanks for being willing to put yourself out there and do a service to a lot of. For a lot of people. It's awesome.

Speaker A: I appreciate that. Thank you for having me to talk about it as well.