Curiosity Before Strategy: The Advisor's Path to Better Conversations

Speaker A: Is not only clarity of problem, but then if you look at what's underneath it, you get a different list of clarity of possible solutions. Not a solution. Possible solutions because they want to be partnered with. And truthfully, it's, uh, arrogant as hell for me to walk with somebody that built from scratch a 10, 20, 50, 102 million, $200million dollar business, whatever it is. And tell them I can tell you what.

Speaker B: Hey, everybody, and welcome back to another episode on the Exit Is now podcast with me, your host, Scott Snyder, hanging out with a, uh, let's call him an exit planning legend today. Uh, he's. He's been on the show a few times now and now is back in the second half of our season. Here to talk about activation. How are we activating ourselves as professional advisors, as certified exit planning advisors, so that we can be a part of the business owner's plan, path and strategy. So, Joe, welcome back to the show.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: And you haven't been in the new studio, so we've moved studios now.

Speaker A: Congratulations.

Speaker B: Thank you. I appreciate it. We're trying to get bigger and better and a little bit more sophisticated along the way. We're in this cool, what we call Snyder family warehouse that kind of tells our entrepreneurial story of four generations of entrepreneurs.

Speaker A: Walked around the walls and then I went upstairs. The only thing that was bad for me, I saw a place that there was supposed to be wine. There wasn't.

Speaker B: I know.

Speaker A: I thought about sending it to you and then I looked down at McKinsey and I said, McKinsey, does this place get air conditioned this summer or is it allowed to get hot? She really got. I said, I can't put wine in there then.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know, right? Exactly. So, uh, I think it'll be kind of cool. We're trying to, you know, use the, uh, early, uh, early, uh, second half of the season podcast, kind of test the space bit to see how we might use it to entertain some guests in a unique way. Right. I always think it would be cool as a collaboration space.

Speaker A: What I love about it, as I walked around, there's the history of you all and the different businesses that you've been in. And it was wonderful to watch that and see the culture and see the heart and see the balance of it balanced against some. The fun toys and pieces that are around and little spaces that are different and a great place to entertain and hang out.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But also a we as entrepreneurs have a feeling of where we came from, what we did that most people call pride. And for us it's almost. It isn't pride like I want to brag, it's pride in guess what? I survived. Yeah, guess what? I survived these stages because I remember getting up in the middle of the night or early in the morning and looking in the mirror in the bathroom not knowing if I wanted to scream, cry, or punch a hole in the mirror with, uh, oh my God. And I talk to advisors all the time and say it's hard to understand entrepreneur unless you've had to cover an amount for payroll that's more than you had to cover it with.

Speaker B: Yep, been there.

Speaker A: And if you. And if, and if you've done that, you understand being an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur, like people who call themselves CEOs, when you have a laptop in yourself is not the same experience.

Speaker B: No, sir. No, sir.

Speaker A: Knowing that you have people that rely on you to make sure that they can pay rent, they can pay mortgage, their kids can go to school, they can buy groceries, they can save up for a new house, et cetera, and that you promise to make sure that continues and you will get a greater benefit if it goes well. But if it's not going well, you're going to cover it. And there's a moment and you watch rooms for entrepreneurs and you say when you have to cover a payroll that's bigger than what you have and it's days away and the small G gods of cash flow send it just in time. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, you figure it out some way. Yeah.

Speaker A: And unless you've lived that in one or multiple businesses one or multiple times, understanding the servant leadership that an entrepreneur feels is difficult. It isn't two or three employees and what do you do? It's this other thing and the wanting to build and the wanting to take care of others. And we as entrepreneurs, um, get called all these, these labels, narcissist type A, et cetera. And the reality is you're dealing with, 99% of them are merely servant leaders that are doing the best they can with what's in front of them. Right. And when they feel the stress that they might let somebody down, they're acting out is, I've got to make this work.

Speaker B: So true, though. It's so true.

Speaker A: So as we talk about activating, um, when we talk about activating entrepreneurs and activating the ideas around them, if you're to an entrepreneur that already has been through this and already have the backend resources, they still have that in the back of their soul, this moment, way back there, that they're worried about coming back, the number of People that I've talked to that now have, by anybody's measure, more than enough still have in the back of their head. You don't understand. I'm three events in a row away from happening that same thing that could have happened before. Joe.

Speaker B: Exactly right.

Speaker A: So when you're talking about activating that entrepreneur, how do you accept them as they come? And how do you, how do you, um, have them activate not just on what's next or what could be, but understanding who they are and the panic that exists in you and me over stuff we don't tell anybody about because it's inconvenient. Because if the troops know you're panicking, they don't do well. There's a scene in one of the Star Trek shows where this captain character and this doctor, uh, character are longtime best friends and they're trapped and they're having to break away and somebody's installed something m in the back of their head where they can hear each other's thoughts. And they come to a fork in the road of where they're going to escape. And they look and she says, which way? And he looks and he kind of assesses and then he looks again and he says this way. And she starts to walk ahead of him. They're going. And she says, hey, do you do that often? He said, what? She said, you had no idea this was the right way. And he says, well, Beverly, you gotta understand when you're stuck in this role, when there's no good alternative, if the team thinks you're not too sure, they won't do as well. But if they know you know this is the right, you have a better chance of success at a 50, 50 shot of not having chosen but having walked down the path afterwards. Uh, there's this whole stack of things that are commonalities to these leader entrepreneurs, which I'll call a servant leader, that if we accept them as they are and when we meet with them, if we don't peg them with, you're this age, you're in this industry, you've got these kids, you're from this country, whatever we tag them with to then assume about them, if we instead can spend time with them and build some sort of trust and ask questions that are not offensive, but slowly work into understanding the driver behind that. And it doesn't happen in one hour. It happens over a longer relationship, over a longer time. So how you activate somebody, it's like dating. I talk to my son and I say, hey, look, the lady in front of you wants to know you want her. Not a girlfriend, you want her. The only reason she could know that is if you've asked enough questions to find out who she is.

Speaker B: I love it. Yep.

Speaker A: So you can't do that in an hour and then say, well, you're perfect for me the next date. There has to be some sort of intake. Oh, by the way, not a bad idea to find out if the facade matches what's inside before you go commit. Because I don't know about you, but I've committed before to the facade. Found out what was inside, I went, oh, not great. How to get out.

Speaker B: Yep, exactly.

Speaker A: No, and I have no idea if this is the direction you wanted to go.

Speaker B: No, I think it's spot on. I actually think it's a good opening to the show. I want to get a little bit into your book too, so we'll save that to the end. I want to start high level and start walking in. So I think it's a great intro. I think this is one of the things that you teach, uh, inside of our programming, whether it's at the Summit or in the chapter network or in the SIPA program itself. You in particular are masterful at, like, being curious. And by being curious, you ask a bunch of questions. It's no different than what you were just talking about with your son. And the girlfriend, she wants to know that you want her, not just a girlfriend. And I think a bit, and I think what we hear a lot inside of our space, Joe, is Ascepa is coming out of the program and approaching the owner. Super technical, right out of the gate. And I think, and I go back to this story that I told on the podcast, I think last episode, and I think it frames. What I want to ask you is that I'm sitting on this 65 person business owner, 65 business owner, virtual little conference. And my session's an hour and a half. And fast forward through it. They asked the three panelists, me, one of them, what is your words of advice after this, uh, session? And I said, well, the person my right is a family enterprise advisor. And they go in this, like, deep governance model. And I was like, okay, I can, I can see that. But like, that's. I think you're venturing too technical. You kind of see the owner's kind of like cocking their head, meaning, like, man, now I'm confused. We had another gentleman talk about tax strategy. And I'm like, I don't, you know, like everybody that we all want to say, be nice.

Speaker A: I talk tax sometimes.

Speaker B: Yeah, like, and, but you, you know, they're like, I'm just trying to explore exit planning here. And so I said, they said, scott, as the president, Exit Planning Institute, what's your, what's your advice? And I'm like, man, I'm going to sound really silly right now, but I'm going to say it anyways. I think we're just, we just spent an hour and a half together. I don't know how many people in this virtual room really know what we just talked about, like in a deep level if they're just being introduced to it. So my simple answer is we have a whole community of advisors that are thought leaders. Pick up a book and read it and begin to explore. And if you like what's in the book, let's dive deeper. And let's dive deeper. And let's dive deeper. I thought of you during this. Yeah. Because you say this in the SIPA program all the time. I said it actually on the summit stage as well because I think it truly helps us frame this activation model. How do you move an owner from. Yeah, yeah, yeah, to hold on, say that again. And I think it's in part going back to the girlfriend analogy is you're, you stay curious, you seek understanding and you, and you ask the right questions. What do you, what do you think about that?

Speaker A: I think it's incredibly true. Um, I've got to always be careful because there are three parts of me too. I'm like any other entrepreneur. There is the true. I built model systems, ways in which to attack, go through out of respect for the other human being. How would I do this in a way that's repeatable, that has a high level of touch, but also respects the other side. And then there's this overthinker number two, and then number three, there's this listening to your angels, listening to something else that's not logical on what might be a good thing to do. Um, I agree that most entrepreneurs are very quick thinkers or very quick decision makers if they feel they have all the data and they can trust the room. So if that's true, how would you get them to feel that they had all the data and they could trust the room?

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And this is not manipulation of another human being. This is respect. I've been hired to serve you. You're a servant leader that serves others. Your big goal is that if I serve you, I'm helping you serve others.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: If I had respect for that, I could be like the other hundred people that came at them. To give them the logic, the spreadsheet, the reason they should do it. And I don't know that that activates that person because you're telling them what they should do and what the conclusion is that they want to be partnered with. They're a fricking owner. They're excellent at amassing, uh, lots of ideas, finding a uniqueness, deciding to do it differently. But with all that data that came in of people they hired, they trust, they put in, how do you get into that group? So I talk about counseling often, and if I was teaching counseling at the moment I was talking about it, I would say every one of our conference rooms has one or two Murano glass bowls. And in those Murano glass bowls there are polished river rocks. And every one of them has carved into them and painted inside of that one word. And it's curiosity. Because the hardest thing for me to teach my lawyers to keep, because they constantly want to separate the wheat from the chaff, go to the point and they're not curious and therefore they lose. They lose in what they could have. They win logically, but they lose from a feeling or sensory part. And that's where all the game is. Um, number two entrepreneurs, uh, these quick decision makers that have to filter through. How do you keep them curious? Because when they're curious, they're able to partner with you and better than you can give them advice. They partner with you, find out what you know, and they create the path for the themselves with you. That's different than your process.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Very cool. So how would you get there? I think there's three steps. Can I do that?

Speaker B: Sure. Please.

Speaker A: So step number one, adjust receptivity.

Speaker C: Hm.

Speaker A: Moving that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not listening to. I'm sorry, say that again. How would we adjust that receptivity? And oddly, it's through questions.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Because the more questions I ask, they want to ask me questions back. And we're staying curious together. And the Undiscovered country shows up. So cool. And anytime you're in any of the rest of these steps and you're not high level on curiosity or on receptivity, but you're following it, feeling a drop, go back to adjust the recipe by questions wherever you are in the future. So that's number one. Number two, clarity of problem. Entrepreneurs are primarily wanting to understand what is the concern that I might have in the back of my head that's nagging me and what are you talking about? And it's never about this superficial thing we're talking about. It's always these underlying things.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: So the clarity of the problem, what's underneath it, how do you explore that with curiosity helps. Then number two, after inside. Inside that second step B of that, if I can call it that, is not only clarity of problem, but. But then if you look at what's underneath it, you get a different list of clarity of possible solutions, not a solution. Possible solutions because they want to be partnered with. And truthfully, it's uh, arrogant as hell for me to walk up to somebody that built from scratch a 10, 20, 50, $102 million, $200 million business, whatever it is, and tell them I can tell you what to do. That's arrogant as all.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Instead, hey, let's do this together. This is what I know. That's what you know. Let's find it. So, um, we did receptivity adjustment through questions. We did clarity of problem and what's underneath it. And then we did a list of clarity of possible solutions. Then we're in step three, choosing together which of those solutions with a timeline and milestones. Not a commitment to the end, a commitment to the first milestone. Now an entrepreneur says, I'm feeling partnered and connected with and you're going to get a different outcome than if you would have told them what to do based on your logic because of whatever. Check the box. They're this age, they're this married or not. They're this ethnicity. They live in this part of the country. They have this industry where you decide ahead for them. Because even if you were right in the big bell curve, these are entrepreneurs who are successful. They're part of 1/2 of 1% of all Americans. Their advice is not in the 99% commonality.

Speaker B: It's absolutely right. Yeah.

Speaker A: Am I get way too excited about this?

Speaker B: Yeah. No, please continue, please.

Speaker A: So I think that, um, in answer your question, um, as we're looking at entrepreneurs and we're looking at business owners that um, are that are in industries that help entrepreneurs. And let's do a distinction here. An entrepreneur that's decided to take onto their bag of rocks on their back large payrolls, large risk is different than an advisor that has a team of two or 12. Uh, that is not an entrepreneur like we're talking about. The pressures are different, the risks are different, and the servant leader part of them is not only of these entrepreneurs are serving their family and then they're serving their employees and then they're serving their customers that help support those things. M. There is a level of I don't want to fail Them that nobody sees. So do I activate, uh, by working towards their greed? Do I activate by working towards fear of failure? Or do I activate saying, I see your success, I see all parts of you. Let's do this together.

Speaker B: Mhm. So in the activation process, I'm starting to lay this out maybe in four segments and I think there's more. But the four segments is. And I think the one we're touching on right now is my approach with the owner. So I'm sitting down with the owner. My approach isn't technical at first, it's curious and questions and conversational. We're getting to know each other, we're seeing what's underneath. The other ones that maybe lay out as language I could be using, uh, another one that I think there's some tools that could support our work as we venture down. Right.

Speaker A: There's some tools, there should be singular sheets of paper that an entrepreneur looks down at and goes, oh, it should be self explanatory and it should pose the dichotomy of two or multiple, multiple things where they look down and they go, oh. And they look at you like, if that's true, you better know the answer because I need to fix this.

Speaker B: Yeah, like they're like, oh, I'm sorry,

Speaker A: you were talking about.

Speaker B: No, no, that was fine. And then the last one and we can go back to tools. And the last one I think is people. And so you talk a lot about this and uh, inside of SIPA and inside of our community a lot. And I thought of you again the other day when I was in Chicago, I was in Chicago at a chapter meeting and I've been telling this story on all of these activation podcasts because I think it was a key component, particularly of what you guys teach. And we're sitting there in these pods at our Chicago chapter meeting and they have this really cool case study where they're going through it. Then we have pause points where we're supposed to go back into our small group and ask questions. And uh, one of them was about how we refer work. And uh, no one was asking this question. And I was like, I feel like the inner Joe here. I gotta harness this question. And so I had asked Tim, our chapter president, I said, look, I don't want to actually speak or participate or uh, speak at the front and participate that way. I'd rather just sit at the table. And this is a learning opportunity. I had Paige, our vice president of marketing and brand strategy with us. We just want to come learn and grab insights. And so But I couldn't hold. I couldn't hold back. And so this one, I was like, honestly, what's top of mind for the 50 people that are in this room is what has to be true for me to refer you work. And I go back to, you say something that. Honestly, for me, I hear it so much that when I first heard it, it was actually pretty profound. I never heard people go, well, you know, I want to know, like, who you are. Like, what, what do you. Like? Uh, you know. But you also say, in order for me to refer you work, I need to know how you charge, how do we make money? And I don't think anybody actually goes there except you guys. So can we talk about the people component? Like, if you're the attorney and I'm the cpa, you go, well, I'd like to, like we're going to go into this client, I'd like to know how you make money. And I don't think it's a bad question to ask. I actually think it's quite smart, actually.

Speaker A: I think it's the question the client wants to know.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And I think the other advisors should want to know, but often don't because they see it as a stumbling block to a thing. So if you've got three players, player A, player B, player C, that are going to go help an entrepreneur, is it possible that one of those three players believes that if another player does their process first, or if another player charges too much, there won't be enough bandwidth of process or bandwidth of time or bandwidth of money to let the other advisor do their thing? Is that possible? And my answer would be, oh, yeah, it's the. It's the first step of, well, wait a minute. Well, your thing. Derail my thing, either because of time, process, or money, but nobody wants to talk about it. Oddly enough, the client, when they hear all this and they've heard somebody talk for 20, 30, 50 minutes or an hour, they think, okay, uh, um, what do you do? And how do you get paid? Because they're frigging entrepreneurs. The first thing in their mind is, what do you do?

Speaker B: How do you get paid?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's how they run. And they're trying. They're not doing it of, I want you, I want to pay you less. I want to do less. It's. I don't understand what I'm evaluating. I, as an entrepreneur, I'm evaluating do I do something or not for my business, which supports all the people I love, my family, my employees, my customers, et cetera. I need to evaluate my time and the resource I'm going to throw at this as is it smart for all these people that I'm serving and you're not giving me the data. So first and foremost I think that we should be able to just explain that to a client up front that we're taking in all this and then we explain what you know. We talk about either product and strategy where you explain to people this is a product, this is a strategy. I know something you don't know. Buy this product or strategy, your life will be better. Or benefit and process. Let me find the benefit you're looking for. Here's the process to get there and you're buying the process to get there. And we're agnostic as a product strategy till we get there. I think a product and strategy person will always make more money this month. I think a benefit and process, personal organization will always make money at the end of the year more.

Speaker B: Okay, interesting.

Speaker A: So there's the, there's the steel. The other thing is the older you are and the longer you've been in your business, the more you are rewarded for bad behavior. When you were younger doing it, you did all of this long lead up stuff, got successful, got too many people in your bailiwick as uh, a, as an art, as a, your uh, business owner of your practice supports business owners. You got, you got there and you had to shorten it down because you didn't have the time. Uh, so you got rewarded for bad behavior. And because of sheer will of personality, people are buying and doing. Yeah, but you're not doing what's best for them anymore. You're doing what's best for you and you're being rewarded for bad behavior. So, and you watch other successful people do it that way, you say I'll do it that way because they're rewarded. And I don't think it's bad behavior they're winning. My point on bad behavior is that at one point you used to give a real strong darn about the outcome for the person in front of you. Short term, midterm and long term. Do we lose that as we become successful? And the answers and the process you would give to a client would differ if it was more dependent upon short term, midterm and long term success for them based on their standard then short term success for you, I have no

Speaker B: doubt and I think that you would be, the owner would be attracted. They can sense that. I think owners sniff that out.

Speaker A: So they're going to look to. If we think about if every interaction, if the book you write, if the book I write, the one we do together, if the meeting we go to, the podcast here, if you first put your head in the person that's going to receive the data, what is the plight that they're in in life? What is their situation and how do they listen? And you just don't know. Do they listen by pictures? Do they listen by words? Do they listen by a, uh, diagram? Do they listen by content? Do they listen by story? Do they listen by history? You'd have to test that. And if lean back to Sal and his dating, he would have to do that again. This young lady in front of him could be the valedictorian of Villanova University. That is in the engineering department. And everybody just conjured up Catholic University. Um, graduating senior, 22 years old. Oh. Of engineering department. And then they gave her all sorts of other characteristics and made an assumption about her that may or may not be true.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How would you find out? You would explore.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: But it would be a respect for the receiver more than a respect for a defined process. I own. A defined process I own is important as a backdrop, as a backup, but it should be able to accept the types of clients that are different because we're serving the top. Less than 1% of all Americans that drive 80% of our economy, 80% of jobs that are the reason that our country grinds and exists, that are largely disrespected, in my opinion. More now. They're more respected now than they used to be. But how would you. How would you help them? And how would you let them know you're there for them and have them feel that so they can make choices? The other part is if I go back to what we talked about before, um, if you were to constantly check in with them to figure out where are they at receptivity wise, if they're really high on receptivity, the sales process, the implementation process, the readjusting process are all fast.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That old book speed of trust. But if the receptivity is lower, it's like slugging through the mud and you hear things like I'll let you know, which means no, or it means I don't understand yes. So to answer your question from before, wouldn't it be great if in the way you spoke, you were able to find out where they were at? Describe. Yeah, I've got products and strategies if you want, but I have. I'm dozens of hours of understanding if you need those. Anybody else who gave you advice Their crystal ball works better than mine.

Speaker B: That's so true.

Speaker A: I still have to figure out what's in the mixing bowl. And in doing so, you would let them know, hey, I'm, um, here. I need to understand more so I can tell you what I know about these things so we can put them on the table together, and we can together figure out what to do. And then you get an entrepreneur who says, did I just hear you say I'm going to pay you this way? Flat rate, hourly percentage back, whatever it is, to help me help figure out what to do. I mean, not tell me what to do. Because, son, I've been doing this a while, and I've made a couple of nickels, right? Uh, telling me what to do is not part of my life.

Speaker B: Not for a business owner, I wouldn't think.

Speaker A: But how exciting. Now, I'm not saying we shouldn't have a process. I'm not saying we shouldn't have graphics. I'm not saying we shouldn't have a way to do our job. But should that be flexible enough to take in the data and the changing circumstances of everybody in front of me, or should I, I say because of your age, because your ethnicity, because your religion, because of your industry, because of where you're at, where you live in the country, whatever these characteristics are, gender, et cetera, I have now assigned that. You're going to go through this.

Speaker B: I know, right? It seems so obvious when you put it like that. But I think so many of us kind of show up there because I think it's not because we're bad. I think it's because it's comfortable. That's what we used to do, so we're still doing it. And what I find is, uh, across the board, regardless to your point of generation, background, I think all owners are in the same. And to the point where you're saying, like, look, we kind of. We are successful, we feel good, we feel proud. And so I'd rather have somebody come on a journey with me than kind of sit here and tell me what to do, right?

Speaker A: And, um, I tease people often. I said, let me understand. You've gone to somebody to give you financial advice, you've created this net worth through these methods. And you're asking somebody, and you don't even know if you. If they figured out how to pay off their own home yet.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: And in addition to that, you've hired a counselor to interact with yourself and your spouse because it isn't going well, and you don't know how many Divorces they've had. That's like me choosing my cardiologist based on his golf swing.

Speaker B: Yeah, right, right. It's silly.

Speaker A: And entrepreneurs laugh. Yeah. And they say, wait a minute, should I vet somebody? I said, yes, of course. I talk about the book. Shouldn't there be a vetting up front? And there. Shouldn't stewardship mean continuous vetting? We're friends, but through the times that we, from when we barely know each other till now, both of our lives have gone through all sorts of relationship stuff, business stuff, maturing stuff. For me to assume that the Scott that I'm talking to right now is the Scott of ten years ago or five years ago would be a fool's errand. Uh, how you hear now, how you process what you value has changed over time. M. You still have. We have this, we have this background. Your dad and my son and you and I have some characteristics of our background that are very similar that we can lean on.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But our life experiences as we age, as we go through business have been changing as, as, um, our relationships with the people that we love desperately and the people that let us down, the people that took care of us and the people that did well, the people we let down, the things we did. And the way you and I are here, each other is different than we did each other 10 or five years ago.

Speaker B: 100%.

Speaker A: Isn't that true for the entrepreneur?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Is it? Absolutely.

Speaker A: And I would say even more so for them because you got to talk about somebody who's changing all the time. Especially today.

Speaker B: Especially today.

Speaker A: My gosh. With the business world changing. I know that Caesar and his son had a conversation where Caesar, Caesar, uh, looked over and he said, son, the world was different for me. It's happening faster for you. And I think I'm going to have that same conversation. I'm sure your dad did with you. I'm sure you do well with your children. I think it's faster, faster, faster right now because those friggin devices, et cetera. But I don't think this is a new condition.

Speaker B: No, I think it's always been. It's just quicker.

Speaker A: And I think entrepreneurs are seen as stuck in their ways. The reality is they know that if they use true underlying principles and then adjust their application of it, they're successful. And every time they've given up on one of their true principles, they've got bit in the butt. M. There's a list of truisms that they now have that they've learned through scars on their back and wounds that if I'm careful about these things and if I notice those, I will preclude having that disaster again. Yeah, and they're more principle driven, if I can call it that.

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Speaker B: So a couple more questions. I want to get to talking to the book too. On the show, we talked a little bit about approach. We've talked a little bit about people. I want to go back to tools. And I thought that was interesting because I think people think it's super complex. Like I need uh, a bunch of these, these big tools. You literally said as we breezed over tools leading into people, you said I should have a sheet of paper that's not like, no offense, that's not like profound. Like a sheet of paper that draws that. Going back to what I said to you earlier, that goes from yeah, yeah. To. Hold on, what's this? Talk to us about that. Like what are the tools that we're using that, that make that moment.

Speaker A: So we'd have to go back to what we talked about earlier about how it lands. Uh, so first I have to consider my audience. So if I was doing one, I would say my audience is an entrepreneur. And these are the type of entrepreneurs that I play with.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And I can't play with them all.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I want. Because my materials, whatever I develop, my language and tools has to do two things out of respect for the client that's going to be there. It has to attract, vigorously attract like a magnet, my perfect client that we can do great things for.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it has to in my opinion, detract or push away everything else to let people know I'm not for you. Uh, Sal is more attractive on a date if he is seen as perfect for that relationship. Not any relationship. And if he can honestly come across with. Well, if you don't value being outdoors and exercise in that, we can be great friends. But there's no long term path for us. But let's be friends. Which is uh, uh, oddly attractive to itself by saying no. But that's a whole nother.

Speaker B: I know that's push away dilemma.

Speaker A: We could do a push away clothes later on. But there's this. I really want this. And if that person across from says I love hiking in the mountains, then there's. There's that connection. Okay, we can help with that. So a. Who is the, the group that I want to help? Who are the key advisors around them and what are the things they need to Hear what are you. And I talk about this. These inconvenient truths and inconvenient observations and shouldn't whatever I say and whatever I show them cause an insight that moves them from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To tell me more. Where they look down and they go, damn, I've been chasing the wrong problem. M. Or I've always known there was another factor and I missed it. I get it. So one of my favorite ones right now, way too much planning because of the advent of AI it is enhanced planning that is done in a vacuum, in a moment in time. Given today's circumstances, what would you do? AI is great at that. A lot of advisors are great at it. And this very small segment of society wants more than that. They want. Do you understand what's in my unique mixing bowl? Whether you're doing counseling, because I'm this odd duck of we do, um, conflict to the point of toxic counseling between business owners and amongst family members, where in two or three days that dissipates so they can make better choices not from fear, but from desire. And then this tax planning stuff. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah. And then we've been in the exit planning world a long time. We partner with our friends that do it now because there's so many that you've trained to do it now we've got a pool to send them. We had to do it before because there was nobody there.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: So shouldn't the material I generate and the language I use be designed to land well on the business owner that I want to work with and the advisors that help them? And shouldn't it consider instead of a moment in time plan? Shouldn't it say who you are and what you are in your circumstance?

Speaker D: What.

Speaker A: What's in your mixing bowl matters? Because I want to understand what you're asking for, but I can't until I understand this. And you're unique. Whether you're on the date or you're with the business owner, they're unique. I always tease what the entrepreneur tells me, what the advisors tell me, what the tax returns for the last three years and what the documents say never match. And most people do planning without deep diving and looking. So a deep dive of what's there, number one. Number two, if in fact we build the business and we got more money out of it, or if we could build a business and we sold it. And we'll talk about that later. But what am I going to do with the asset? How is it going to be deployed?

Speaker B: Yep. Right.

Speaker A: How is it going to be deployed to Serve myself and the people I love. What does that deploy look like? Because that deployment has so many variations. It would change what I do because what I do at this moment changes how I can use it. And number three, what is the relationship I have to the assets and the people? The convergence of those three things should be the factors that drive what you do, the moment in time. And it would change what the logical mind or AI would do if you took in those factors. And it means that you. If you're a planner or you're a business owner, the thing that you're struggling with is great advice in a vacuum versus great advice with those three factors.

Speaker B: M. Yeah. That's so interesting the way you put it. We talk a lot about AI as come up and I think every conversation that we have, especially today. So, uh, hitting the top of the show already. We could sit here and probably talk for a couple hours. I want to talk about your book because I think not only is it your first time in the new studio, but it's the first time you've been on the podcast since the book came out.

Speaker A: Since the book.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so, uh, featured in the uh, author showcase this year. So you could certainly go to all of Joe's outlets and get that on platforms to get it. You can get it on the. Get directed to it at the EPI website if you're not just listening but watching along as well. Book is called Motive. You can see it here. And uh, so I always.

Speaker A: It's on Amazon. Like everybody else.

Speaker B: Yeah, like everybody else. And um, when I have an author on the show, I always like asking a couple of questions. I find it fascinating. I wrote, if you remember, we joked about this on one of the other previous episodes with a longtime more veteran sipa. Remember that little book Fishing for Value? Yep. Where we use it as really a case study. And we tried to move it along those my young years, I guess. And as I was growing up through value acceleration. But I never done this. And I always find it super fascinating the way you guys all put this together. So first, what's the motive behind motive? Why?

Speaker A: So, um, I'll go back. Uh, I'm this odd duck of. I'm a general contractor by trade. Became a lawyer in my young 30s. So I was an operator. Built and sold to business before and one after. So I've got this kind of, um, odd background, um, in the two things that our firms do. Yes. We've got an educational institute that puts on over 200 programs a year on this stuff and has for 25 years. And yes, we've been in value acceleration. And now our concentrations are both the interpersonal mostly concentrating on the strife or disagreement or even toxicity that business owners might have with each other in family or not. Or families that do and that developed over time from our planning that does the tax work and the asset protection work for families. Right. So that's combination. There are seven legal, financial and tax technical books out there that we've written with other friends.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: An um, eighth one coming out now that had to be written because of frigging crypto. God. Um, rewritten on that section. Uh, and there are four tabletop coffee table books that are meant to have somebody in five or 10 minutes go, oh, and get motivated.

Speaker B: Another tool.

Speaker A: Another tool. Exactly. And I don't know, 12 online surveys, two or a half an hour long. The rest are five or 10 minutes to have somebody go, oh, oh. So there's a central theme to all that. Right?

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: And then some card decks. Motive was I was confronted by a set of families who said Joe, but what for? What about people that can't be in front of you? And that hit hard. And I had a gal say, I want to be able to give this to a friend. Not that yet, but this set of theories. It started with a book called the Invisible Guest, suggesting that for, uh, families and business owners who were in strife that there was an invisible guest at the table. And it was called motive. And nobody saw it. Nobody saw the Thanksgiving table. But, but it. There was a negative outcome often because they didn't see it. And there was a misunderstanding of underlying fact between people amongst what had happened in history because the six people were on a third story looking down at a situation. They would have six different observations while they watched the same thing. Yeah. Right. So. But all of us do with our families and our businesses, et cetera. Um, and a misunderstanding of facts as. And a misunderstanding of actions which are actually reactions to bad facts.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That combine to. I now know Scott's motive. And I now tag Scott. I've known him long enough. He acts like this because of that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Well, gosh, I've just limited your whole world and my perspective of you in addition to that myself those same things in ah, my own motive. So in this world of advisors working with each other and clients, there's this choosing and being chosen thing happened, um, that nobody really pays attention to. And if you did, you play it differently.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The business owner in their choosing advisors and getting chosen by that would play it differently. My spouse, that is the mediator of all this would be the, the, the advisors would be. Then there was a, um, how does it affect my family? And how do I see that part? So there's these five chapters of things like this. And there are QR codes to play little one sheet paper things for a minute or two with a little bit of my voice that has somebody to go, oh. And it lets their mind catch up with the writing because it's kind of thick. And there are 10 exercises that people can do that have them come to a realization about their stuff. Mhm. So they're built as corny little exercises where people get halfway through and they start to see where it's going and they'll actually call me and curse at me like, I didn't wish I didn't know that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can't unknow that now.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I can't. Uh, that can't go away.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And that plays with my reality joke. I said, great, go, go deal with it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Again, great decision makers, quick decision makers. When something's not hidden from them, having them discover some things that's been ancillary. So my, um, clients have nicknamed it in a large group at one of our Hawaii programs.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The field guide. Of course, the field guide for entrepreneurs, which I thought was kind of cool.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The reason it was written was because, like you, I'm at a point in my life where I'm trying to make sure that the people around me that have counted on us have the soul of what it is. And I have not said this out, uh, loud to groups. And here you go. Perfect to be very vulnerable. It was silly of me as an operator to hide the secret sauce that made the real success. But just like every other entrepreneur I know and Steve Jobs, when you watch him happen to him twice in his life, I didn't want to be kicked out because everybody thought they had it figured out without me. So apparently my daddy, God rest his soul, 25 years ago we lost him. He used to say, son, never give anybody all of the keys to the, to the office. Uh, keep at least one that operates something that nobody has, or split it amongst a month amongst them. And that was from a place of fear.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That if he gave them all the keys, they wouldn't need him or they could take advantage. And I realized that there was this underlying strength that we had hinted at, but we hadn't shared. And I got confronted at it. And you know why? I've got a boy coming to my business. And he said, but how Would I ever learn that? And I thought. But it was scary for me under the. Have I been hiding that on purpose? Is this a character flaw? So the conversion. Yeah. So the convergence came up to motive.

Speaker B: And so, um, what was the creation process like? I watched my dad go down to Florida and sit on a bench. You've heard these stories. Every author's a little bit different. Uh, what was the creation like? Because this is different from the other stuff that you've created too.

Speaker A: Very much so. Um, even today, I probably have the essence of four or five singular books as concepts that I've gone back to and worked on, outlines and thought of. Um, the one that's currently playing in my head that I was dealing with, um, a couple days ago is Keeping in the Family with the idea of what is it? Is it the business or is it the money or is it the soul or whatever? And what does family mean? Is it everybody on the planet? Is it just my kids? Is it my employees? So the idea of this book coming next, in my mind, Keeping in the Family has all this possibility to it, of what is it and what is family and what is keeping. So that's the one that's currently brewing. So just like that, this one had two different books inside of it. One was this Choosing. And back then called Getting Chosen. Choosing and Getting Chosen. This interplay with auditors and advisors and advisors with advisors and how it happens over time. And this invisible guest. And those two converged to this. Um, so there was a ton of writing. And I, um, chose God. The process for this was so hard because I was revealing so much my soul. So my typical writing process wasn't working because I was afraid.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: I was. I kept on noticing that I wasn't giving it all up, suggesting I didn't know how or couldn't, which was balarky. So I reached out in the world to somebody who was the expert in the top 1% of all advisors that dealt with the top half, 1% of Americans. And her name is Jennifer Tolman. Um, she owns a company called Second Summer. Um, if anybody in the financial services industry knows the book that's been in more than 10 years, 20 years, knows the book the Other side of the Table, written by Scott Fithia. The reality is it was written by Jennifer Withcott while he was dying of cancer. Oh, man. And he's one of the biggest luminaries in the financial services industry.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So much so that, uh, there's big stories about this and not it was taken and used by a different group. But the other side of the table was her. I had worked with her over other things. And when I first approached her, she said no. She said, I'm not writing another book with somebody. It is too painful. So I, I plied her with alcohol and cajoling and finances and everything else, and none, um, of that worked. And I called her one day and I said, it would be sinful if this didn't get out. And there's nobody who understands this better than you. Not for me, but for them. And she said, you're a pain in the ass, Drazeri.

Speaker B: Yeah, like, fine.

Speaker A: She said, I'm gonna go tell Nathan, my husband, you said that. I know what he's gonna tell me. You're going to let me do on this for a month and you won't talk to me and I'm going to have to do it with you. So that's. So I had, I had a playmate.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, who understood the market. She's an expert in the advisors that are at the top of their game working with the top level clients. She doesn't, she does do some direct client work on motivate, uh, soul stuff. But she. And she understood me.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think that's.

Speaker A: And what I wanted to get out there and she was able to challenge me on. That's too trite. Everybody says that. That doesn't make sense. I don't think you're hitting your mark. What about this? And then she made me test it with a variety of entrepreneurs.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And in fact, you were in the manuscript world with me. Thank you for that. I remember your dad calling me and saying, joe, I'm going to need another manuscript because you gave me a hard copy and I've got so many notes in the margins and circles and arrows and highlights, I can't read it anymore. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Right. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so that's why. And that's the Convergence.

Speaker B: Super cool, Joe. Well, I really appreciate it, man. And I appreciate coming back on the show and coming all the way into Cleveland. At least you weren't all the way in Hawaii this time. Back home in San Diego, that's a hike. I think you've done it for us before. Yes, but I really appreciate it again.

Speaker A: Uh, and you. For us.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, thanks. And so for the audience, please, I ask that you share the podcast with a colleague, a fellow advisor that's looking to activate themselves, put themselves on the path, the business owner's path, strategy and plan. Uh, please tune, uh, in and share. Leave, uh, a review. Our next episode will be back August 19th. Thanks, everybody for listening. Joe, thanks again.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker B: See you next time, guys. Sam.