Why So Serious? 5 WILD Ways to Generate Money-Making Ideas

Speaker A: What happens if you take three struggling freelance marketers, lock them in a 17th century cottage, and don't let them live until we fix their businesses? In August, I rented an old cottage in rural Ireland and invited copywriter Rob E. Commerce, designer Laura and book coach Vicky. Three freelancers desperate to stand the fuck out. And over two days, I ripped everything apart. Their offers, their messaging, their branding, their legion. To find what was really holding them back. This is the concept of a new YouTube channel that I'm launching. You can watch the first episode for free right now. It's half an hour long. It's supposed to be entertaining as well as, uh, practical. I hope you'll enjoy watching it. So please set half an hour aside to watch it around your morning coffee, breakfast, lunch break, or on the bus, or at the gym, whatever. Um, the link to Access this new YouTube channel is in the episode show notes. Ah. I really, really appreciate you taking the time to watch it. And then, you know, the usual to like it, comment to share, talk about it around you, if you like it. Thank you so much.

Speaker B: So one of my favorite exercises is called shitstorming. And the idea, because brainstorming can cause a lot of blocks, right? Shitstorming. The purpose of it is you come up with, uh, like the stupidest idea that you can imagine. Kitten Mittens is one of my favorite go tos. And then you start brainstorming, like, what is the worst idea? Now let's talk about how can we sell this worst thing. And the point is, like, get silly, get creative. The worst thing is the best thing, which melts away people's resistance to be like, correct and serious. And I need the right answer, you know.

Speaker A: Bonjour, Bonjour. And welcome to another episode of everyone hates marketers.com, the no fluff actionable marketing podcast for people. See? Sick of marketing bullshit. I'm your host, Louis Gonier. In today's episode, you will learn how to make changes that actually stick and make more money with something that kids do, but adults don't tend to do that much anymore. My guest is the brand lady. She has a hat to prove it. She's a coach, consultant, keynote speaker, facilitator at ucl to make changes that lasts. She helps individuals as well as brands. And, uh, she has this kind of blend of APPL neuroscience with psychology, behavioral psychology, behavioral science, storytelling, all the good stuff I like as well. So, Jocelyn Brady, very happy to have you on the podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Featuring the brain hat.

Speaker A: Yes, the brain hat as we call it. So if you are listening to that episode. You've. You've missed it. That's a shame. If you're watching that episode on YouTube or wherever, you haven't missed it, so that's good. But you were wearing the hat as I was saying it. Anyway, what do you say to people who believe that business is serious? Right? You need to be professional. You need to be wearing a three piece suit and, um, it's all serious and that's how you make money. And it's all rational and serious shit.

Speaker B: I mean, according to who? It's all, all the rules are made up. And, you know, if you want to put yourself into a box and decide that not allowing yourself any levity or only, only being very serious and very buttoned up is the way that you want to live your life, well, I mean, good luck. Go read what the deathbed regrets are. What some of those, you know, oh, I wish I had the courage to live a life that was true to me. Not what other. I wish I had realized that happiness was a choice, that I had let myself laugh and be silly, to play more, to connect with my friends and people who are important to me. I wish I hadn't worked so hard and been at the office so much. And I wish I had expressed my real feelings. And I don't. I mean, no, no shade on people who do like to, to be very buttoned up and wear suits, but it's also just, you know, that is one flavor of showing up. And if that's true to you, great. But if you're trying to fit into something likely that there will be a day that you fundamentally regret true to who you are.

Speaker A: And those deathbed regrets come from. Is it a nurse in Australia who collected this?

Speaker B: The main one is. Yeah, the main one. Her name is Bronnie Ware and she was a palliative care nurse. I forget for how many. I think 12 years or something like that. There's been a few, but she's the featured, the star.

Speaker A: Yeah. I wrote about this a few months ago about those regrets and they're so profound and, um, yet they're so simple, right? You're like, duh. But it's interesting that no one's. No one really regrets. Oh, I wish I had made more money or I wish all of that stuff, it all comes back to the basic human needs. So to kind of repeat what you said. It's fine if you think business is serious and that's your worldview and that's okay, but clearly some people are doing things slightly differently like you. You don't take yourself too seriously, and yet it seems to be working. So when usually I hear those objections or these people saying, you know, you can't be. You can't do this in that industry or whatever, what I hear is they want to do something different, but they are afraid that it won't work. They're afraid that they'll be, you know, chastised for it or whatever. So what do you say to that? When they are. You feel that they are ready to. To change and behave differently and take some more risk? What do you tell them?

Speaker B: I mean, that's like, you know, one of our favorite. I think everybody's favorites now, if it's not, I don't. We don't belong in the same conversation. But Brene Brown, who talks, you know, her main thing is vulnerability, right? Uh, and involves showing up as you truly are. And if you're not doing that, you're going to have a lot of neurobiological problems, right? Your brain is going to be computing that there's. There's some disconnections here. It's going to transpire in, you know, whether it's anxiety and symptoms of depression and things like that. It will show up. And I think it's just like letting yourself. The biggest unlock always, for me, is allowing yourself to play, even if it's just a little bit. Just like, allow yourself the courage to show up, just one step closer to what you want to be. If it feels too big to just jump off the cliff, you know, assembling the parachute, then try one thing, like wear your hair a different way. Wear a sweater that you would never normally wear. Just try something on that gives you that one little boost that proves to you you're not dead by trying this new thing.

Speaker A: Okay, a lot to unpack here already. So I want to go back to the neurological issues you just mentioned, but what you just said. There is something I say as well. A lot of people will say, oh, I wish I could be like you. I wish I could stand the fuck out as well. And they think it's a binary choice whether, like, they stay there or they go all the way to the other side, which is like taking all the risk and whatever. But as you said, you didn't say it exactly like that. But it's a spectrum, right? Like, you don't have to do all the things you can start. And, uh, even the first step is great, right? And then you realize that this first step wasn't that bad after all, wasn't that scary. Nothing bad happened. And you get addicted to that in a sense that, yeah, you could do more. And then, you know, so it's a. I don't want to go into the cliche of the cliches of the cliches of business. But it's a journey, it never stops. That's what I think. So you mentioned neurological issues. I never heard that before. In terms of making a link between, you know, trying to play the person that you think others expect of you versus what you want to do. Right. At a deeper level. So are there, is there like research that proves that this actually creates what you describe like those neurological issue like anxiety and depression.

Speaker B: Well, I do know there's research that shows the opposite. Or what I should say is it shows an unlock. Right. So there's really good. Pretty recent. I'm trying to think of her. Mary did Michel, who studies improv and she was studying it on adolescence with traumatic issues, deep childhood trauma and depression and anxiety.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And that engaging in improv activities, which is a novelty, um, in a context of safety, it's allowing you to play in an area that you're taking kind of those baby steps. Right. It's like. Yes. And is a fundamental improv principle. You agree with the people who are with you and you build on it and that's understood in the realm that you're playing in. And these kids had far greater, really amazing improvements. And one of them is this, what's called coherence. And coherence is something that you see across studies. So Pennebaker is a really is another researcher who looks at, specifically looks at language and narrative and how that relates to our well being. And likewise, when you are getting things more coherent for yourself, so you're telling yourself true stories about things that happen and things that might be possible for you, you experience that increased, uh, coherence, which is just a story that creates meaning and understanding for you. So therefore your symptoms of anxiety and depression and all kinds of other. So people who are suffering from even cancer, irritable bowel syndrome, all kinds of chronic illnesses report reduced symptoms or severity of symptoms. It's not going to like magically wand all of this stuff away, but you become more in harmony with yourself.

Speaker A: Well, that's really interesting. I never heard research being done on that linking the two. But at uh, a fundamental level it makes sense. Right. And I think a lot of this is why people report like I feel funny myself and feeling very like relieved that they've said their truth. You know, when it comes to maybe folks who Are, like, coming out or, uh, folks who are, like, you know, quit the career that they hated and do something better. Like, there's this deep sense of relief that people report, but the fact that it goes deeper than that is. Is really cool. Before we go into this kind of a step by step or, like, the way you approach play, because that's what we're talking about in the big sense of the world, like, how to, like, allow yourself to be creative and try shit out and whatever. I want you to tell me that story that started with your raging case of hemorrhoids. Yeah, I'm dying to hear it.

Speaker B: Yes, as you would. Nothing like a bleeding butt story. Um, so, yeah, basically what I have, I've had growing m up, severe social anxiety, generalized anxiety, terrified of speaking to humans, especially in classroom settings or anywhere where I felt, like, trapped. I would do anything to avoid it. And at the same time, a perfectionist. Right? Like, and putting my. Handing over my worth to somebody else. Say, like, give me. Give me straight A's. That means I'm good, right? But just don't talk to me and ask me to talk eventually. So, like, fast forward. I start my agency in 2008, Scribe, and I'm just obsessed with words and stories and language and how can I earn enough to eat a sandwich and pay my rent. And it's sort of that. Watch what you get good at. I got really good at it. And I was, you know, a lifetime of being obsessed with language. I also, at the same time, was pursuing my MFA in creative nonfiction writing. So when I wasn't writing copy, I was writing essays and narratives and stories, uh, in that respect. And I got so proficient that the. It started to blow up. I had to hire a team. I got to hire a team. And the CMOs of these companies would say, jocelyn, we want you to not only write our brand voice guidelines and, like, copy guidelines, but we want you to come in person and train our teams on how to tell stories and how to write better and all this. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, in person? Like, like to humans? Oh, God, I can't hide behind my screen. And when I started doing that, I just. I got so sick. I was just, uh, full talking about how you. Your issues can transpire physically. My migraines were just constantly going. Eczema was really breaking out. Bad all over the place. Hair was falling out and. Raging case of hemorrhoids. And that was really. I was like, okay, I'm bleeding from my butt. Maybe I should do something about this. It's a literal pain in the ass, the stories I'm telling myself. And that's when I thought, okay, the scariest thing I can imagine is going up in front of people. Um, and, uh, not knowing what to say is the worst thing. It'll just freeze and look stupid. So I want to face that, okay, that's what you do in improv. So that's when I signed up for improv. Immediately regret that because I was like, oh, no, now I have to actually show up. Even like thinking about it, like, shaking, you know, and it was really, uh. I was trying to coming up with excuses to get out of it. Just like, tell them your dad had a stroke. Which was true. It was just 10 years before that. Things like, yeah. And I couldn't bring myself to do that. So I just like driving up, uh, am I gonna get through? I'm gonna die. I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die. You know, that's what brain does. And then it was really a few minutes after walking into that class and it starting all of that stuff, like, vanished. And the time just flew by and I had fun. Like, I lost myself and became something new in that period and was like, oh, my God. What? How? All of this all the time. More, please. Thank you. And that's when I just signed up. I started doing it. Four years of performance. And that's when I started my stand uh up comedy and storytelling show and realized how much I loved. Because I've always loved stories. And watching the creative spark that people feel, realizing that they are creative people, they are storytellers. You're born that way, right? It's just like skills you can develop and get better at. And now I could fully own that. Like being in person and playing with that instead of being scared to the point of Emirates.

Speaker A: So was it truly a transformative moment a few minutes in the first session, or is that like marketing storytelling to embellish the truth?

Speaker B: Yeah, it was a catalyst, right? Like, it wasn't magically better. It wasn't. I just, I felt, when I felt those feelings, I was like, oh, wow, I can feel joy in this experience. And I knew that it would take some time because, uh, you know, like, yes, I'm a fan of brain stories, I like to call them, and storytelling and how the language we use affects our behavior. That doesn't work in isolation. You have to act and you have to prove to yourself over and over and over and over that there is a new reality. And then you can buy into it and believe it. Right. So thus the four years was like intensive training and doing performance until it became like second nature.

Speaker A: Right. What do we mean here by intense training for four years? We're just talking about improv class after improv class and studying the art of it and reading books about it and doing shows.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What did you actually look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That. I signed up for as many classes as I could take. I was doing it back to back. When one class ended, I would join another. Sometimes I would take workshops alongside of existing classes. So those classes might last eight to 12 weeks or something like that. Everyone, once you get to a certain level, everyone involves performance every weekend. And then you can join, like open improv. And at the time there was much more open stages you could just kind of jump onto or sign yourself up for.

Speaker A: So if you had to select to think about the number one specific thing you've learned from that experience, maybe not the cliched stuff that maybe the caricature that you hear from, like in TV shows or whatever, but the, uh, maybe something surprising that you've learned that you've still applied today from this experience, from learning improv in and out. What would it be?

Speaker B: I mean, I don't know if this is surprising if you've looked at my stuff, so it won't be to you, but one of them is that play is truly magic. It even feels weird to say it, but true. Like, you. You have no idea if you haven't experienced how transformative play truly is. And when you really engage, because it's so, you know, it's not just a form. It's not like you just have to get out some dolls and pretend they're. They're pirates or something. It's just like. It's allowing yourself that levity and connection and flow. So it's like it's an immersive experience. I guess the other surprising thing is if you get too far, it can feel like a cult. Improv.

Speaker A: Yeah. One of my older brother. We don't have parents in common, but we have a stepdad in common. Anyway, long story short, he's an improv guy in France. He's quite well known in the circle of improv and whatever. And we were talking about this, and that's what exactly was saying. And then I remember listening to a podcast from Jenna Fisher and Angela Kinsey from the Office, and Angela Kinsey, who plays Angela in the Office, who's like a mean. Plays a very mean lady. She comes from improv as a background, and that's what she would she would be saying in almost every episode how much it. It is like a cult and uh, like this weird group of people just improvising in the street and just not caring at all about what others were thinking and, and whatnot. So I'm not into that world, but I've. I've heard enough of it to know that, yes, it sounds very true. You don't want to go too far. So let's go into the, um, into the detail of what we are, why we are talking today. You mentioned it a few times. You mentioned the word play. Right. So can we maybe define it? You started to define it, but maybe like really define it now. What do you mean by play?

Speaker B: If you ask people Like Stuart Brown, Dr. Stuart Brown is considered kind of the pioneer in play science who by the way, got into it by studying mass murderers and realized there was a connective thread that was lack of play. So it's not murdering people. It's the very opposite thing. It's a lot. It's.

Speaker A: What's the opposite of murdering people?

Speaker B: I guess keeping them alive, Starting joy. Yeah. Life.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean birth is pretty seems. It sounds pretty murdery when people are doing it.

Speaker A: It is murdery.

Speaker B: It's very bloody activity. Yeah. Engaging in an activity that doesn't have to have a point or an outcome. You are discovering that as you go. And there's different forms of play. Right. Like you can, you can playfully move your body and you can get up and kind of even that is a, uh, very regulating. There's this. I know you can't. Some of you can't see me, but standing up and doing a real gentle turn, like this is really calming. It tells your body to calm down. And there's rough and tumble play. That's a Louis Got it.

Speaker A: That sounds spicy.

Speaker B: Spicy play. Rough and tumble, you know, which could be R rated or not. And playing with in the context of business, so you could, you know, playing with ideas where. So one of my favorite exercises is called shitstorming. And the idea, because brainstorming can cause a lot of blocks. Right? Shitstorming is the purpose of it is you come up with uh, like the stupidest idea that you can imagine. Kitten Mittens is one of my favorite go tos. And then you start brainstorming, like, what is the worst idea? Now let's talk about why is this work? How can we sell this worst thing? And the point is like get silly, get creative. The worst thing is the best thing which melts away people's resistance to be like, correct and Serious. And I need the right answer, you

Speaker A: know, so play is doing its activities that uh, have no end goal in mind. You're doing it for the sake of doing it. Like, yes, you're in the present, you're enjoying what you're currently doing. Is that the gist of it?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's related to flow. And some people will put parameters that play because, you know, you could play at a thing that does have a goal. Like I could be playing with how I am crafting a chapter to a book and I could be like really irritated by it, right. And then go, okay, let me just turn this into a play activity where I just want to see what happens if I arrange things this other way and maybe like just throw ink at a page, just experiment. And you could argue that the outcome there is, the desired outcome would be to unlock some new idea or path forward. Right. But when you're engaged in it, you're not going, I need the answer now. Right. It's just you're fully engaged in it while it's happening.

Speaker A: Okay, so maybe we can do a bit of a do and don't. Uh, not do and don't. That's a stupid fucking thing. It's not do and don't that. I mean, what is play? What is it? Right? So let's say in a business setting, in a more like to go back to the marketing world in general. So shitstorming, that's play, right. You just try to come up with the shittiest idea possible.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That's play. Okay. Brainstorming with a very serious goal in mind where everyone needs to really, like, they really need to think hard about the best idea. Like it's. That's not play.

Speaker B: Not play. Because there's pressure to be a certain correct thing.

Speaker A: Right. Okay, so play then involves the absence of judgment.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. And you know, as you're saying this, I'm thinking about like professional sports, right? You get, um, started because you love, you love it. You're so engaged in it. It's fun, you're enjoying it. And even when things are frustrating, you get through it because of the love for the sport. And then it turns into a very serious thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And a lot of the play melts away.

Speaker A: Yeah, interesting. So play would be playing football with your friends in the backyard, having fun. Not play would be playing football professionally on, um, its work. Right. You go to train and you have to wake up every morning early enough and whatever. Um, and yes, you get rewards like money or whatever, but you're Missing this sense of play. Okay, maybe another example from the business marketing world. What, from your experience, what is kind of a, uh, playful activity?

Speaker B: What else would be playful? Sending each other funny gifts. Like, I think we get this idea that play has to be some big grand gesture, but it could just be. I just want. This is funny to me. I want to share it with you.

Speaker A: Okay, that's interesting. So that could be small enough, like sending a gif. And um, what's the opposite of sending a gif? What's like a very much not a playful thing to do?

Speaker B: Oh, the long, you know, the emails that you just want to just slit your wrists when you see them come in because they're so long. Oh, they have like 37 word sentences followed by another like a 50 word sentence. And they're just like, we're making this impossible for you to read, let alone know what to do.

Speaker A: That's not play. I mean, it's play for me when I receive emails that tell me, you know, you need to invite this person on the podcast and it's the shittiest email on. Yes, it's play. When you try to look at every email, compare them. Is it the shittiest email I've ever received? Yes or no. And then you put a ranking together and you know, that's play.

Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yes.

Speaker A: I think we've defined it pretty well. So as I started like the intro, we were talking about how to make changes that actually stick and um, how to make more money. At the end of the day, that's what people care about when they listen to marketing stuff and whatnot that align with themselves. So you already mentioned a, an example like the shit posting sheetstorming sheet posting on LinkedIn. I do that, but she's. Let's play here. Actually, that's very meta. But let's play. Let's pretend that you are helping me do those things. Let's pretend that maybe I have a team or something like that. You know, your best type of customer, your, your best type of work. Um, and talk me through what you would make me and um, us, uh, do in order to make changes that stick and have more fun and use play in the right sense of the word.

Speaker B: Uh, another activity example is the 11 star experience. Oh, no.

Speaker A: So I mean, no activity. I'm not saying that. I'm just trying to think in terms of the method behind it. Right. So the activity is fine. I mean, we can talk about this one, but I mean more into, like into the. Step by step. Let's say we Have a. An, um, engagement. I hire you to work with me and my team to do all of this. You know, what is the first thing that you do?

Speaker B: Uh, the first thing I ever do with anybody is just ask a lot of questions. Why? It's kind of. You have to get to the actual problem, right? It's like, what is it that you're actually trying to solve?

Speaker A: Okay, so ask me, what is it

Speaker B: that you're trying to solve?

Speaker A: Well, we just merged with another company and we have two marketing teams. We had two marketing teams, but now it's only one. And, um, they don't really know each other very well. And we need to generate some fucking results fast this quarter. And they need to get along. They need to get rid of preconceived ideas or whatever and we need to get shit done. So I need you to help me.

Speaker B: What do you mean by results?

Speaker A: I mean the build has set up those quarterly targets about getting 25% more leads compared to last year. To be honest, I feel like my job is on the line a bit because of it. I have a bigger team now because we've merged with this company, but I can sense that it's not gonna be that easy. So, yeah, 25% more leads through the year and between us not making my. Not getting fired, please.

Speaker B: Not getting fired. More leads. And. And when you say get, uh, shit done, is that all wrapped up in that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, like losing, like losing the. Of those two teams joining, who's going to judge each other and shit like that and working as a unit towards that goal.

Speaker B: Working as a unit. So I'm going to ask you a cheesy question, but it has produced good answers. And that question is, we're going to wave a magic wand and you tell me the most ideal outcome. What does that look like?

Speaker A: So it's in one year time, we've reached our targets. The team is getting along. We went to an off site event and we had a lot of fun. No one got too drunk. There's no like extra extramarital affairs going on. No cheating. Everything went well. I got a raise. I can sleep because we got the goal. And, um, the ball is happy.

Speaker B: All right, so we have a lot of fun together. But not too much fun. Nothing too spicy. No. Nothing R rated. And nothing too. No. No drunken escapades. Good sleep, people are getting along. You reached your targets. How would you. This is a year from now.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: What would you headline this? If you were to name this. This is like a Netflix show or the name Of a book or something that you like, an album. What would you call that?

Speaker A: Mission Impossible Marketing Edition.

Speaker B: Mission Impossible. Does it come with a soundtrack?

Speaker A: I was hoping you would do the soundtrack.

Speaker B: Okay. Marketing Edition. Does that feel clear to you when you say Mission Impossible? Marketing Edition. Does that feel clear based on the goals that you talked about?

Speaker A: I mean, the first part, yeah, Mission Impossible Marketing Edition is a bit stupid. Maybe something more specific for the second part of the title. But no, I think I know what it means. It definitely sounds like a, ah, Mission Impossible type thing. Um, and it definitely sounds like we're gonna go, yeah, we need to do what we need to do. We need to get those fucking leads. Right? Um, that's it, that's the title. Mission Impossible. We need to get those fucking leads.

Speaker B: Uh, can I make a suggestion?

Speaker A: Yes, of course.

Speaker B: So, because we're doing a headline about something that's happened in this exercise, instead of get. We need to get. Yeah, you get where I'm going.

Speaker A: Yeah. So Mission Impossible, how we got those fucking leads.

Speaker B: Yeah. Nice. How are you feeling about that?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's all good on paper.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, so the point of this exercise is you just try to get some clarity in a narrative way, Right. And this is also a tiny little form of play. So we're just playing with the outcomes that you want to get. And then from here, I mean, we could use the whole call if you want to, but I would go through and map out a strategy. So I would say, what, uh, are the chapters to this? And we think about this in a chronological order. It doesn't have to be perfect. We just think about from zero, where we are now, right to Mission Impossible, what got those fucking leads? What are the major high level steps that we, we took to get there?

Speaker A: So for this you would still use the movie story analogy, like in terms of the, the moments of the movie, Is that it?

Speaker B: Mhm. Like the major chapters. So each chapter, think of a chapter as a step in a, in a strategy. So it encompasses lots of little things that happen.

Speaker A: So I know why, but I want to ask still. So why do you ask those questions this way? Like with this movie setting, rather than a more rational, bland way?

Speaker B: The answer is in that question because it's fucking boring. Because brains will not stick with. We think narratively, we think in stories. That is how brains are wired. So when you help people construct a narrative for the thing that they want to achieve and doing so, uh, kind of, you know, you can allow them to play with it a little bit. So if you say Mission Impossible. Got those fucking leads. Like, that feels fun, right? Instead of achieved the target of it, you know, and that. And then you can think of like, okay, I've seen a million movies, I know how stories work. Intuitively, we know how stories work. And you think, okay, there's major things that happen to achieve that outcome. And then you can. That like, makes sense to you and it feels achievable. So you're toeing the line of what feels achievable. And a little bit like it's always going for that stretch, right? Like you don't want it to be boring and low hanging fruit. You want to be achieving something important to you.

Speaker A: How do you approach this type of exercise with skeptics? So let's say in my team, I know I'll have a bunch of skeptics or like maybe a bit burnt out. And they always challenge whoever we hire to help, uh, do something. What's your way of breaking that barrier?

Speaker B: Uh, it's always contextual. But in a case like this, I might say, listen, if different strokes for different folks, right? We want to give you something that works for, that works for brains, period. That is a narrative, right? And then also, if you're feeling, you know, squeamish about it, you want to have some more harder metrics, let's give you something to choose from. So we have this overarching Mission Impossible. Got those fucking leads. And then we can have the more like, what does that mean to you in a more granular sense? Or if you're afraid to show the CEO because he's going to say, what's the P and L ratio? Whatever, let's plot those out too. So now you have something that makes sense to you, that feels inspiring to you, and then you have this boring shit that you need to use when you need to use it.

Speaker A: Okay, nice. Okay, so let's say we've done that kind of movie, that storyline, every chapter. We know how we want to get there. It's agreed, we've played with that. What's next?

Speaker B: So we get to those chapters, then it starts plotting out those, the scenes or the actions, like the tiny things that come next, right? So if you have a chapter, let's say, what would be the first chapter? Mission Impossible. Got those fucking leads. I mean, what would be the first big step? Strategy step?

Speaker A: First big step is to put everyone in the same room to get to know each other. I'd say, because we need to merge those two teams, right?

Speaker B: Getting to know you, would that be, would you name that Chapter.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly like that.

Speaker B: Yeah, you got to sing it out. Yeah, let me get you to sing on here yet. All right, so then what is involved in that? What are the tiny, tiny little steps? How do you get people in the room? Like walk me through that process.

Speaker A: Well, we are fully distributed team, so first we need to set a date in the future, agree on a location that is close enough to everyone, pick a venue, send the invite, reminding people to fucking book their tickets, blah, blah, blah. Okay, let's make things easier. I'm making things very complicated for no fucking reason. Let's say we actually are not distributed at all. We are actually all in the same office because that's easier, uh, to describe. So yeah, we're in the same office. So it's as simple as setting a date for maybe in two weeks time in the big meeting room with some sort of a meet and greet with food and whatever where like everyone gets to know each other without expectation of any seriousness.

Speaker B: Okay, great. So get everyone in the same room in about two weeks.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What would be, what's the exact date?

Speaker A: 23rd of January.

Speaker B: What time?

Speaker A: At 9am sharp.

Speaker B: So January 23rd, 9am sharp. You have everybody getting together.

Speaker A: Sharp, sharp.

Speaker B: I feel like I need some gusto in there. Sharp, sharp. I can't do it. Okay. And everybody's in the room. January 23rd, 9am M. Sharp. Did you say two hours?

Speaker A: Nope.

Speaker B: How long are you, how long are you together?

Speaker A: Yeah, probably, probably an hour or two.

Speaker B: And what is your ideal outdoor outcome of this? What, what do people walk away thinking and feeling and doing?

Speaker A: Well, they walk away with a sense of, you know, the other team is not that bad. Their anxiety over the fact that, oh, I heard this one is a dickhead, or I heard this one is an asshole or whatever is kind of removed. They feel already a sense of belonging in terms of, you know, we are part of the same group now. Instead of looking at each, uh, other, looking at each other like you're competing against each other.

Speaker B: Right. Sense of belonging. Great. Well that sounds like a plan. How do you think you can create that kind of outcome?

Speaker A: Well, I think one of the best things to do is probably to pick an enemy. A common enemy, not a person, but a monster. Right. Pointing the finger at something that we all need to rally against in order to do something together.

Speaker B: Mhm. What else?

Speaker A: That's it. That's what we're gonna do.

Speaker B: Is that your hour, would you say? Hour and a half activity?

Speaker A: Yes. We're gonna pick, uh, we're gonna choose what we're gonna fight against Nice. Okay, so to unpack what you've started to ask, because I think those questions are quite interesting. So you've started to ask about breaking down the chapter of the movie into smaller parts again, right? Like what you actually need to do. And you ask questions that are, you wanted me to go very specific in terms of the details of it, right? So it's not like, uh, oh, we'll meet with the team someday. It's you're asking specific, uh, details about this particular meeting. Why do you do this?

Speaker B: Well, I want you to have a very clear imagination of it happening. So, like when we go from this bigger picture, you're thinking like more aspirational, right? So called North Star, this big headline, but that can still feel fuzzy. It's like, oh, that feels exciting, but what the hell does that mean? So when you get down to this more granular, it's like, okay, we don't want to overwhelm you with all of the details that go into this entire plan at this moment, because we're just getting started. What is the exact next thing that feels like you're extremely clear. Right. So what brain is always looking for is certainty. There's a caveat to this, but basically it wants extreme certainty. So you're like, I gave you brain, gave you a date, and you have a time, so you know exactly what your next steps are. So because there's going to be uncertainty involved in this, you're getting people together, you have all these feelings about it. Maybe you're a little excited, but you're like, there's, there's some reticence. You're like, oh, I hope this works. But at least you have this very clear foundation of like, hey, I know what I'm doing after I walk out of this meeting.

Speaker A: Nice. Okay. And then you ask about, at, uh, the end of the meeting, what are people doing? Feeling, thinking. That's kind of roughly what you asked.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So is that based on, is there a specific reason why you asked that question that way?

Speaker B: Well, a, uh, lot. If you're working in marketing, you're probably familiar with those kinds of questions. They make sense and they, and they're often sorely under asked. If you ask me all of the campaigns and things I've worked on, like when that isn't clear, people are like, we want them to think, buy our stuff. You know, so many words. But just because you have clarity on the outcome and you're getting into what people are, which are feeling creatures that think. So you're tapping into like, oh, right, I have this ideal outcome that I want, uh, some kind of shift or spark that I want to create in these people as a result of this experience.

Speaker A: Yeah, let's keep going because I think we can. There's a few things that we can extract every time you ask me stuff. So, yeah, yeah, let's say we have most the steps laid out in an extremely certain way. Right. We know exactly what's going to happen. So we move in certainty from the aspirational kind of talk. We merge the two.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: We have the aspirational side as well as the actual certainty of this is precisely what's going to happen in that order. What do you do next? What do you like to do?

Speaker B: Once you have everything mapped out, then it's coming together with the person or the team. Because here's what usually happens. You get excited and clear about something. You're like, yes, we can do this. I know my next steps. But just like when you said, you know, did, did that one day of improv really change everything for you? Or is that kind of marketing bullshit? Right? It's like the story, the story bullshit. Because likely, unless you want gotten some, the aliens arrived or something huge, hugely different came, you're going to slide back into old habits. Fears are going to come up. So it's working with that person to say, okay, how is this thing going? Are you achieving the things that you said that were important to you? And it's not so much of a uh, why or why not? But it's looking at what is the thinking behind this. So let's say you had this all mapped out, you're super excited, and then you're like, fuck this, I don't want to do this meeting. I'm just going to send an email and then it'd be, okay, let's dig into that. Did this original thing feel important to you? What was your thinking going into this? Do you notice any patterns in this habits of thinking? Is this showing up in other ways in your life, career? Because likely there's a pattern in behavior here. Is this something that you would like to change? And that's like the real work of like getting people, you know, that's like more coaching work versus more of a consultancy blend.

Speaker A: So that's, that's quite interesting. So you really dig into the coaching side of it. So talk me through all of those questions you asked. It's all about the way they are thinking. You're trying to understand the reasons why maybe the way they see the world, their Worldview, the way they think about stuff that leads them to act or not act. Is that right? So maybe can you repeat briefly the questions that you like to ask? You mentioned quite a lot quickly, but like, what are your favorite questions to ask to uncover those blockers?

Speaker B: One of the most important, I don't know if I even said this much, is like, what are you noticing about your thinking? And usually, you know, you see people taking like, what? And then you just start pulling, right? Like, what are you. What are you feeling right now? What are you feeling when you think about that? What is your rationale for doing X, Y and Z? Is this something that is important to you? Is this something you would like to change?

Speaker A: So, so this, this type of question helps to kind of dissociate yourself from your thoughts, right? Like to try to take a distance out of it and see them from a different perspective, right? To see, like. Oh, yeah, it actually makes me actually think of those things. And now that I'm saying it out, uh, loud, it sounds silly. It sounds. Whatever. Is that. That's right, exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just like being a. Why I like that. Being a scientist of your own mind in your own life, right?

Speaker A: Kind of like, oh, yeah, you're noticing the thoughts, the stream of consciousness and stuff like that. Okay, cool. Okay, we're going quite deep, so let's go back up a bit. Talking about play to make changes that actually stick. Um, and so tell me. Let's talk about that a bit more. Right, so we started. You've given a few examples of activities that anyone can do. Right? We talked about the shitstorming. You mentioned one. You started to mention one and then I cut you off. What was the one you mentioned? Eleven star something.

Speaker B: Eleven star experience. Yeah.

Speaker A: So tell me more about that.

Speaker B: It comes from. What's his name? I think it's from Reid Hoffman. Don't quote me on that. Anyway, it's the 11 star experience. The Airbnb guy. I'm recorded.

Speaker A: Oh, no.

Speaker B: So the point of this is, if you listen, there's an excerpt of him talking about this. And then the gist is you want to come up with the total mind fuck of the experience, because you can always come back from there. And when he gave the example originally, it was before Elon Musk was. Was thought of as the way he was still kind of like, cool to some people. So he's kind of giving this example of that. The 11 star experience in an Airbnb. You can walk up from a 1, 2, 3. Those are like, you showed up and the door didn't unlock and nobody answered. Right. A five star is you got in, everything was nice, you had a good experience. Maybe they even had some tips on what to do in the area. And then you step up from there. They knew that you were a surfer, so they dropped off their favorite surfboard and gave you, uh, the wetsuit and up and up and up until you get to like, the 10 star might be the Beatles arrival in the 1960s. Everyone's cheering your name. You get a private jet. The eleven star is Elon Musk says, you love space. We're gonna take you on a trip to the moon. So the point is playing with your imagination to exaggerate it to a point where you're like, that's amazing and hilarious and it's totally impossible. But now, you know, setting up, giving them the surfboard because, you know they love to surf doesn't feel so out of bounds.

Speaker A: Nice. Give me another one.

Speaker B: One of them is one of my favorites is a more. I don't know that it's necessarily considered playful, but I. But I love it so much. And that's just thank you notes and that's getting people. So in your scenario of getting people together in a room to create some connection, this is extremely incredible to watch. When you have people come together, you say, all we want you to do is you can have, you know, give them cards and say, write a, uh, thank you note to somebody who is really important to you that made a really big impression in your life. Maybe somebody that you haven't gotten the chance to thank enough or at all. Could be a professor, a friend, an animal, and give them a few minutes and then ask if they would like to share. And that's when people often share the most incredible stories. It was like at this super corporate event and people were sharing about, you know, a teacher who said, you can I see you going to college and graduating? She never thought she would. And then she ends up up, you know, getting summa cum laude or whatever. Another one who had lost, um, a limb in war. And these people had worked together for years and never once heard these stories.

Speaker A: I love that. That's such a great example. I can tell how quickly it becomes very emotional and very raw, like, and almost everyone is fucking crying pretty fast about those stories. And, uh, that's the power of it, right? And I know storytelling and stories is such a fucking cliche term in the marketing industry, but it shouldn't be because. Because that's what humans are able to do together, right? Like, disconnect in such a deep level. I think it's in the book Sapiens where it says that humans are the only animal that can. That tell stories to each other. Right. And so that's why we're sorry.

Speaker B: As far as we know.

Speaker A: Yeah, as far as we know, yeah, yeah. Although like they're talking about dolphins and shit like that that they might be quite close to being able to do this. But as far as we know, yes. And this is such, such a powerful thing. Give me another one. I'm addicted to it. So you, you mentioned the, the. The shitstorming, the thank you notes. What else do you like to do in. In this type of environment?

Speaker B: M. This one is more of an. There's like excursion style activities that I recommend to people. So for example, if you're trying to get more you know, customer centric which every brand should be doing this especially in like B2B and FinTech but is just go together to a like a kids science museum or you can go to like a normal museum and just go there like, like a scientist, like an observer and just see like look around at these, take notes, take your little field note journal and just look at the placement of things. Look at the color, look at the lighting and then come together and talk about it. So like things like that just going on these excursions and also an excuse to get out of the office and do something interesting.

Speaker A: So why do you ask them to look at the color placement of things?

Speaker B: Think about all of the deliberate choices these people, the designers or curators of this experience made for your benefit.

Speaker A: And it's one of the curse of being a curious person is that like this is the type of stuff I force myself not to do because I'm so fucking obsessed about the stuff we're talking about like marketing and understanding people and why people do stuff that you know, you tend to notice those things like a lot. So I have to stop myself in supermarket or whatever to like look at people buying and stuff and um, just looking at how. What they do and stuff. It's interesting to do like when you're curious. It's fulfilling. But yeah, it's a bit weird sometimes. Sometimes.

Speaker B: Especially if you're taking notes.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like the note taking put in your head. Don't take a notepad. Uh, it's a bit. It gets weirder. Okay, give me a last one. Like a last activity. Something that you find incredibly powerful playful thing.

Speaker B: Let's see. There's like you know, things like empathy m mapping but you can make them more fun and exciting than the traditional. But that's not what I want to talk about. What do I want to talk about? I think there's a. This is the simplest, silliest thing, but there's. We do not celebrate enough as people. And celebration, especially in creating some kind of behavior change, is, uh, extremely powerful and highly underrated. And a lot of us will get in our heads about it. Well, I only. Did. I only just put on my running shoes. I didn't go run a marathon. I don't deserve it. So getting in the habit of going like, no, you want to tap into your own reward circuitry to create a change. So here's how you do that. You learn how to celebrate the little things. Things. And when you have a, like a group of people. This is, this is so silly, but I love it so much. You have people walking into the room for a meeting and every person applauds. So just like as loud as you can, you're just like cheering the star who just walked into the room. And you do that for everybody. Again, super silly, but you have no idea. Like, when you walk into that room, you're like, oh, oh. I'm like, you can't help it but smile and feel a little bit like I am important. And what a great way to start a meeting.

Speaker A: Nice. I like that a lot. So the excursion, looking at color placement, understanding why things are here, the gratitude, like celebration, 11 star experience. And we talked also before that about the breaking down those chapters, the movie chapters, into like, steps with extreme certainty. You talked about sheetstorming. We talked about how play, definition of play is, uh, something without a goal in mind necessarily. Something that is more like to be in the moment present. That's why kids do it, right? I mean, to go back to the, the start of the intro, like, I mean, my daughter, you met my daughter early on through screen, but you still saw, uh, her plays a lot, right? She wants to play with the dentist and she wants to play doctor. She wants to play farmer. And play, play, play. All right. Non stop. So why do kids do that, actually?

Speaker B: Well, um, I think almost all mammals, I'm not sure which ones don't. So I'll say almost all play to learn. And we are. And because the brain, there's all kinds of cool stuff that happens in your brain when you're playing, right? So you're, you're exploring new thinking, new algorithms in your brain, new scenarios. Often too, when we're playing, especially as kids, we're playing it like disaster situations, like somebody, oh, I'm gonna murder you. Or like, oh, no. She. The princess is getting taken by the evil frog. It's like a vast majority of kids play is horrible things happening because we're practicing the inevitable hard and horrible things that will happen in our lives, even if we're not really aware that we're doing that right. But play is teaching your brain and your nervous system how you might be able to respond to different situations. It feels so fun. It's like the point of play being around. Evolution didn't drill it out of us, so there must be a point. Sort of. Some of the evolutionary psychologists or behavioral scientists might say that something like that. And even these, like, young creatures. So look at, uh, mountain goats. They will jump around and play on a mountain to their death sometimes. So it could be super dangerous. But we still. It's like, necessary for our. For learning and growth.

Speaker A: Any other example from the animal kingdom?

Speaker B: Rats play and giggle, which I love. Huh.

Speaker A: Okay, give me another one now. Like, I'm gonna. I'm not satisfied. What other mammal. Yeah. Do play. Uh, like, apply this kind of play principle just for the. For the sake of it.

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, you could look at. Look at dogs and cats, puppies and kittens especially. But throughout their entire lives, they'll play unless something's wrong with them. Right. They're getting sick. Okay. My favorite story is about the. The huskies and the polar bear. Do you know this one?

Speaker A: Nope.

Speaker B: Okay. So there's, uh, a dude named Brian, and he lives in the Arctic or near the Arctic, and he has. He raises these husky, like, sled dogs. And during the winter, there's a period where it's not cold enough for the polar bears to make their crossing, to do whatever hunting and things that they need to do or I don't know what they. What polar bears do to go feast. And there was a period of time where there. There wasn't. Yeah. The tundra hadn't yet frozen over, so the polar bears are kind of roaming around. And Brian had this particularly rambunctious husky. It was just super playful all the time, very bold, and just goes out and does whatever he does. And one day, very, very, very, very hungry polar bear walks up to where the huskies are hanging out. And rambunctious one goes, oh, friend. Time runs up to the bear, and Brian's like, fuck. Like, he's a goner. And you know where this is going. What happened next? The polar bear, like, rolled over, exposed his belly. This is the classic animal kingdom signs of. I'm ready to play. I'm Vulnerable.

Speaker A: I do it all the time with my wife showing the belly. I'm ready to play.

Speaker B: So I saw that's how you got ready for this podcast, I heard. And, yeah. And they engaged in rough and tumble play for about 15 minutes. Minutes. And then every day after that for. I forget how long, every couple of weeks or something, even people would start to gather around just to watch this phenomena where the. The polar bear would come back for his playtime with this dog until it was cold enough for. For him to wander out and go on his mission and eventually invited more friends. And it turned into this sort of, like, tradition of the polar bears coming to play with these dogs. And, you know, they needed play more than they needed to eat in that moment.

Speaker A: Moment, yeah. We have a, uh. There was this example as well of a dog with a, uh, uh, a sea. How do you call them? They look like seals, right? I mean, they go. They could. They can go outside of the water, right? They can, yeah. Anyway, there was this story of this dog that just went every day to play with that seal, or whatever it's called, for years. It's fun how every mammal, or, you know, we. Almost every mammal has this kind of. Of sense of play and stuff like that. That's a good way to end this conversation. I mean, I have a couple of questions to ask, but it's a good way to end this conversation that has been going on for 57 minutes. That's what happens when you have fun, right? Going full circle. So, uh, is there anything that I didn't ask you about what we mentioned that you'd like me to ask you?

Speaker B: M. I can't think of a missing question. This is really. I've just been so engaged in the moment that I can't think of anything missing.

Speaker A: That's okay. So maybe if something comes up in the next few seconds, let me know. But what are the top resources you recommend listeners about this concept of play or even about other stuff that we discussed?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, the book play by Dr. Stuart Brown is brilliant, and I would definitely recommend that the Brain that Changes Itself by Norman Doidge is excellent also, and it shows you just the power of neuroplasticity and these really incredible stories of, you know, people who went blind and then learned how to see by electrodes on their back and things like that. Because your eyes don't see. Your brain is seeing. Your eyes are just organs that are supposed to send the signals and go see some comedy, like go watch local comedians or comedians that come to your town because Comedians, they pick up on so much stuff that, and deliver it in such an interesting and authentic way. Especially the really good ones, are really good truth tellers and can be phenomenal storytellers.

Speaker A: I'm gonna forget the name, her name, but she did. She's a stand up comedian. She, I think did a lot of improv. She was a guest actor, uh, actress in the Office. Just one or two episodes, you're gonna know who that is. She, she, she did this stand up thing unbeknownst to everyone else, where she mentioned that she had cancer. Right. And, um, she announced that she had cancer. She got diagnosed with cancer in front of that crowd. No one else knew at the time that she had it. And she just mentions it and has a way to describe it that make people laugh while also, you know, sharing that thing for the very first time. And it's a fucking. It's such a beautiful thing. And that's why I love comedy. I agree with you for that. It's. I think it's one of the only art form where you can really go as deep as humanly possible into the, in terms of how you feel and, and what you think of others and stuff. So I agree with you on that.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: All right. Where can people connect with you, Learn more from you, Send you shitty comments?

Speaker B: Shitty comments. Shitty comments belong on LinkedIn, I think, or I don't know where else people go now. Facebook. I never ch. Facebook. Send them there. I am, um, jocelynbrady.com you can go there. Find me on LinkedIn. Jocelyn Brady. Where else am I? I'm also Josel them M J O C E L T H E M on Instagram where any of those places you probably can find me putting on the brain hat, talking about neuroscience or something ridiculous or interesting.

Speaker A: Well, Jocelyn, you've been a pleasure. Thank you for playing with me today and I talk to you soon.

Speaker B: All right, thank you so much.

Speaker A: And that's it for another episode of Everyone Hates marketers dot com. Thank you so much for listening. I'm super, super grateful. I'd love for you to consider subscribing to my daily newsletter Monday to Friday called Stand the Fuck Out Daily. I send very short, hopefully interesting, surprising, shocking, entertaining content to help you stand the fuck out. It's at everyone hatesmarketers.com you can subscribe for free and obviously unsubscribe whenever you want to. I'm just going to read a couple of emails that I got recently as a reply. Juma said your content attacks the mind primarily, which is such a good thing because most of us are skilled at what we do, but we don't have the courage to do it our way. Mark, who just subscribed a couple, uh, days before, said, this is my first issue of your newsletter. Love it. Glad I subscribed. Brianna said, I just realized this morning that my email habit is now two 1. Kim through the list. 2. Select all unread industry email except yours. 3. Delete and don't think twice. 4. Quickly scheme yours. Amy said, Also loving the new content is coming from you. It feels really lovely. Um, I like your writing a lot. It really resonates. There's so much bullshit out there. It's good to touch the authentic. And Chloe said, where is the I love this email button? REM Brilliant. I hope you subscribe. You'll be joining more than 14,000 subscribers at this stage, which is crazy. It's the size of a small stadium. Anyway, thank you so much. See you on the other side.