Is LNG Entering a Golden Age? | Jean-Christian Heintz on the Future of Energy

Speaker A: I do think that uh, in five years time LNG will be flourishing. I think we are at the start of the golden age of lng. Um, I'm not the only one to say that because it's getting more affordable, it's getting more available and it's getting more sustainable.

Speaker B: If you weren't in lng, what would you be doing?

Speaker A: I could have become a mountain guide because I like, I like to share passion with people, I like to take people to places and you know as a um, consultant or negotiator or this is what I do, I take people to places, I take them to Qatar, I take them to Algeria, take them to conferences.

Speaker B: This is the oil and gas breaking bio show where we are going to invite industry leaders to talk about their journeys and also technologies of tomorrow in an effort to break some of the vices that might have formed around this energy industry. Hello everyone, I hope you are happy and healthy. I um, am Anand Jha and you are listening to the oil and gas baking buy show. Today I am happy and excited because we will be joined by John Christian Hines, a global LNG consultant and founder of Wide Angle LNG and lng. Now he's also member of the gas tech governing body. With 25 years experience in strategy, contracts and trading John has worked with many leading trading houses, utilities and energy companies to shape the future of LNG in this energy transition. Outside this energy arena John is alpinist who has submitted uh 500 peaks across five different continents bringing same speed and precision. That's what he does with the LNG global market. So with that let's deep dive into his journey and also get his views on the biases that might exist in this energy industry. John, thanks for joining me today.

Speaker A: Thank you for Uzumi, it's great like

Speaker B: finally we were able to connect. I know you're traveling a lot and finally we are having this conversation so I'm looking forward to our conversation. Especially in uh, these times where everybody is talking about this boom energy and energy transition. So much is happening in this world. But before we deep dive into this industry itself we'll start with your journey which is also very interesting. So one side you have lots of interest in energy but you are also alpinist and explorer. Everybody knows who knows you, they know your love about mountains.

Speaker A: I dress a little bit like an alpinist today actually I was uh, I was in the mountains today. I summited a small mountain from uh, from 9 to 11. That's a nice way to, to start your Sunday, your Friday Sorry. Yeah, I said Sunday because, you know, LNG never sleeps, right. So sometimes I don't remember which day of the week we are. And, uh, as a consultant, I can say that, uh, you're always on vacation. Never on vacation with lng. It's really the case. So. Well, how did I start and why did I arrive in lng? Well, I started my energy journey in the, in the 20th century, 1998. And I started applying to EDF GDF, which at the time had a, uh, unique character department. So I wouldn't know if I would land on the power side or the gas side. And I fell on the gas side of the force, which was pleasant because I prefer gas to power as a product. And so I started as a pipe engineer for safety studies on a compressor station in the north of France. And then I wanted to get a broader vision of the business, so I went to Paris, where I was doing some studies about the whole grid, the gas grid. Quite interestingly, I was in charge of a study what would happen if Russian, uh, gas would be cut. And I still have those documents. I still have those documents, you know. And at the time we say, okay, we just bring more lng. Because at the time it was an integrated structure. So gas LNG was just like, you could touch the buttons. It was only one company doing that. And things have changed with the market, uh, liberalization and so. And then I was quite interested in, uh, trading gas. So I went into merchant, part of Gaze de France. And after that I went to lng. I wanted to speak more languages, I wanted to see beyond Europe. And so that took me to Norway, took me to Trinidad, took me to Chile, to Algeria. And then I was, um, headhunted, actually by a company who wanted me to start a desk in Switzerland from scratch. And I said, well, Switzerland, mountains. How can I say no? The challenge was great.

Speaker B: Yeah, a, uh, perfect match.

Speaker A: The challenge was great because, you know, I was actually on a big ship and I had to hop from that ship and go on a small kayak. The good thing is when you spend your energy on your kayak, you feel like the kayak is powered by you, whereas a big ship, you never know exactly your contribution to the ship's speed and direction. But the bad thing, when you're on a kayak and the seas are rough, or when you're in a small sailboat and there's no wind, you have to be very patient and you have to be, um, actually, uh, very perseverant on the long term to stay in the game. Yeah.

Speaker B: And you talk about this Switzerland journey. I was saying like, it's a perfect match, your interest for energy and the mountains, like, what could have been better?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's a lot of stress, um, as a trader, so it's important that after your hard day at work you find some good balance. And Switzerland is fantastic for that because you can have the worst day at, ah, the office in front of your screens. But when you go home, everything works, everything is fine. And even if you have only half an hour, you can enjoy the nature, uh, you can enjoy um, the landscape. So uh, that's the perfect place to be for me.

Speaker B: And you said you have worked across many different countries. What you find common and what you found different working across different culture and countries.

Speaker A: The common thing is that you need to understand the local culture. So what I usually do when I travel is I find at least half a day to visit, to blend, to talk to local people outside the LNG sphere, You know, ask a taxi driver to take you somewhere, uh, try to speak the local language. Because this LNG market is actually very human related. You know, it's still about relationships. This is why we like this market. Uh, it's human relationships. It's not only clicking on the screen. You cannot really click on a screen to trade lng. Some people want to tell you that it's possible, it might be possible, but mostly it's otc, it's grab your phone, meet people. And so the cultural dimension is fundamental, that makes sense.

Speaker B: And what you found different across these um, continents and countries.

Speaker A: If you go to the U.S. it's um, the belief that the market runs the system, that you will always find gas to feed your LNG plants. And that's it, that's arguable right now. You see the Henry hub is actually spiking so it might be interesting to keep an eye on that. If you go to other countries, like the Middle east, it's more like the LNG is actually a national asset, it's taxpayers money. You go to Norway, it's a bit the same, right? It's something valuable we're sitting on and it's for the future generations. It's the revenue that we need to care about. So the relationship towards the asset per se is different. And then the way to the business, you know, the way to the business is completely different. If you go to Africa, you're going to have different ways of engaging conversations. You, you will have to be more careful about your etiquette, especially if you're French and you Go to Africa, you know, it come after, uh, decades of history, you have to be careful. If you go to Asia, you know, it's a bit cliche, but if you go to Asia, it's probably hard to break the ice, but once you have friends there, it's friends for life. So again, it's very much cultural. And this is what I find fascinating. You know, of, uh, speaking the languages, understanding the culture. LNG has taken me to places I would never have visited. Trinidad, Qatar. You know, this is not necessarily the place you want to go on vacation. And then when you go, you realize that it's super, uh, interesting.

Speaker B: Excellent. Yeah. And this energy has brought all the world together, either as a producer or as a user. Um, there are so many countries, so many companies, they're part of this long value chain from production, transportation to using it. That's great. Uh, any stereotype and bias, uh, that you came across or you have seen that exist in this industry?

Speaker A: What do you mean bias?

Speaker B: Maybe towards industry or anything, uh, maybe, uh, how they look towards industry or anything, uh, maybe country to country. If you take example of Europe, they were very much bullish on energy transition. They were going towards more and more in green energy than oil and gas based energy.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, from that perspective, I think, um, the Global south is teaching us a lot of lessons. First, we as the west need to understand that emissions are something that we need to care about. And I'm on a mission to phase out coal. Right. This is one of my reasons to wake up in the morning as an LNG businessman. Because LNG is cleaner, LNG is less particles, LNG is less sulfur in the atmosphere. So it's not only about ppm of CO2, if you will, but the Global south is also telling us something a, we can't necessarily afford what you're offering us. And we're not asking for help, we're asking for cooperation. So help us. But, uh, in a partnership way, we're not going to drive Teslas overnight in Africa or whatever other electric cars. So this transition has to happen, uh, in a partnership way. And the other thing is we in Africa or in the Global south in general, we need to monetize our oil and gas. You can't come and tell us, okay, now we're done with our growth. And, uh, you all have to stop using hydrocarbons because it's back, right? It's like, uh, now we took the elevator and you take the stairs. That's unfair. Okay, so the fair transition is the only transition that can be sustained and to be fair, I think there is a grace period, if I can call it this way, a grace period where LNG along other hydrocarbons will have to remain in the picture. Otherwise we are going to build a fracture, we're going to have a fracture that's even bigger than what it is right now and the world will never meet the climate target.

Speaker B: Yeah, makes sense. And that also reminds me, uh, one case in Vietnam where they made some goal to move towards more and more gas fired energy resources, but uh, when the price went up, they had no choice, they went back to coal. So as you said, like everybody has to play part here and we have

Speaker A: to be ready to accept some of those moves. You know, India for instance, has a lot of domestic coal. India can move coal from A to B because they have a lot of railways. Coal can be stored somewhere for months and you can grab it later. LNG is a high tech product. You have to accept the nature of the commodities. And then if LNG is too expensive, people go back to coal. If a lot of people go to lng, no one will buy the coal. It will be cheaper. And then someone will suddenly say, hey, you know what, I'm going to take that coal.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Uh, so the elasticity between all these commodities is something we will have to live with.

Speaker B: Yeah, makes sense, makes sense. That also bring us to our next question, actually. That's about opportunity and challenges in this oil and gas industry. Lots of things are happening as we already spoke, little bit about it, but how do you see these challenges and opportunities bringing new ideas for someone who wants to make it big in this energy industry?

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm actually mentoring a lot of people right now. So I see the interest of, um, moving to lng. People look at this market, like very dynamic, like very promising. Clearly after a few years of hydrogen bubble, people now are going back to a certain reality check where hydrogen is going to play a role. But hydrogen is a bit like a Swiss knife. You know, you can do anything with a Swiss knife, but maybe the Swiss knife is not the best tool to do all these things.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So this reality check is actually bringing back some interest into lng. You know, we shouldn't be ashamed of being LNG traders or business developers. Back in 2018, 2019, I had a feeling I was working in the tobacco industry, really, you know, and that was over the top. Right. So now people are actually understanding after the uh, crisis we went through that LNG is a problem solver. And I think anyone who is agile, anyone who has a problem Solving mindset is welcome in this industry. And I would say maybe for young people. It used to be a bit out of fashion because of this bad image of it being a, ah, fossil fuel. But I would encourage people to join this industry because the industry has to be changed from within, not by people demonstrating in front of headquarters of Total or Shell. You know, I've seen protesters and when you want to let them join the debate, they usually can't because they have a, uh, software which is protesting. And so I want to tell people to use their intelligence to actually change the industry from within. Decarbonizing optimizing regional trade rather than going from uh, Peru to Kuwait. Yes, we can do that, we can do better. We have to do better. But we also have to educate the consumers because what I hate most is that the consumer and the voter, which are two hats on the same person, are completely behaving, uh, opposite. Right. You cannot be a gas consumer during the week and uh, a voter in the weekend. That completely contradicts your behavior as a consumer.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And there's a lot of education to be done and I think as an LNG professional I'm doing a lot of trainings, I'm trying to point out all these paradox behaviors so that people kind of refocus on what we should do.

Speaker B: Makes sense. And I also like the approach that you just mentioned about. Instead of going on back foot to be defensive, let's have a conversation. I think that part is missing because I think it goes both ways. Sometimes as energy professional you start feeling like you are putting on the corner and then you want to push back, uh, really hard instead of pushing back. I think it's open conversation is needed, uh, to make it work, uh, for everyone.

Speaker A: I'm agnostic when it comes to energy. I was on a TGV train in, in France yesterday powered by nuclear energy. Nuclear energy is great for trains and for uh, AI for servers. Solar energy can be great in many places, you know, maybe not in the Alps because people are starting to understand the value of a landscape that comes in, uh, the perspective as well. I'm agnostic so any solution is worth considering and it's a mix of energies that will lead to the right transition. But I am also worried about people missing the critical thinking and in my trainings I insist a lot on critical thinking. Don't trust the first thing you see on, um, Instagram or the first thing you hear in the news, even the prime time. French TV made enormous mistakes about CO2 emissions orders of magnitude. And this is why we need to attract people who want to work in this industry and want to share the knowledge to their families, to people in their social networks so that we actually have a fair image of what the LNG industry can bring to the world.

Speaker B: Make perfect sense. Just continuing this discussion, like if you have to underline maybe one skill or mindset for the professionals, what would be that?

Speaker A: Perseverance nerve. You know, we see that this market is completely uh, crazy. So you must be ready to weather a lot of storms. When it comes to, you know, if you're a trader you, you will have positions to hold. If you're an analyst you will have to rebuild the whole set of assumptions because your map is covering a certain area and then the world is going to be outside that map. So you will need to put a lot of dedication and energy, innovation because we all tend to be living on the past decades and this industry needs to evolve, needs to evolve into something that is um, um, you know, more adaptive to smaller uh, economies for instance with small scale LNG that can be easier to finance. So innovation and diversity in terms of cultures, you know gender equality is important, is very, A lot of men as a matter of fact bring, bring diversity with skills and uh, backgrounds. That's important.

Speaker B: No, that's make perfect sense. That's perfect sense. You've already highlighted many things to think about. But one thing you talk about this uh, always changing environment, uh, around energy, changing in uh, atmosphere. So you have to stay long, like it's a long game and this industry is not going anywhere. But it's transforming itself with different phases, different time, different decades. So that will continue. But that also brings us back to your journey. Uh, we talked about um, where you have started, wherever you are today. But if you're given a chance to reflect back on your journey, what changes you might make.

Speaker A: It's not my style to look back in the mirror and change things. I think I'm the kind of person who has always believed in uh, his intuition. So I have followed people, I have uh, followed my gut feeling about people I want to stay with, people I want to work with. I've always been very open to sharing my knowledge, to sharing my passion. In a trading environment, that's not necessarily what we should do because uh, trading is ip, trading is intellectual property. So your reflex would be more like to keep what you know for yourself. But I think that my, my way of behaving in this market has actually uh, built a good karma if you, if you see what I mean. The fact of um, Being very um, um, altruistic has opened me a lot of opportunities. I have very long relationships and um, I can say I'm friends with everyone. And I think it's in this business, it's good, it's good to be in this mindset of be very spontaneous and be very simple. Just simple in the way you handle relationships.

Speaker B: And that relationship goes forever. So if you have uh, those relationship that's built on the trust that goes forever.

Speaker A: Trust is clearly a keyword. And you followed what happened recently with a few contracts. You know, this LNG industry has been a gentleman's club. And now it's a bit questioned whether the way the industry was working can continue or is it going to be more a contract way, um, of interacting? Let's say is it going to be more, a less personal, less human? Um, that might be a concern.

Speaker B: So John, that also brings us to Rapid Fire Round. Are you ready?

Speaker A: I am.

Speaker B: Okay. Okay, let's see, let's see. Define LNG market in one word today.

Speaker A: Fascinating.

Speaker B: Fascinating. No, that's a great way to put it, especially in the energy industry. Changing every day and transforming into new shape and sizes. So there's a lot of stuff going on. That's a great way to put it. Next question. Most breathtaking peak you have ever climbed

Speaker A: and why Mount Etna in Sicily? Because it's an uh, active volcano. So we actually damaged some of our gear because of acid fumes. We realized uh, two days later and we could ski, uh, snow capped volcano facing the sea. Right. And also it was uh, after several attempts because we had to wait. We had to cancel our first trip and we came back the week after because of weather. It's just uh, just like trading, you know when stars are not aligned and suddenly you actually can put your plan to execution. That was a fantastic experience.

Speaker B: But you didn't give up. That's a good thing.

Speaker A: No, no, no, it's, it's on your bucket list. And you, you want to do it.

Speaker B: That's great. Essential fuel of your day. Espresso, green tea or mountain air.

Speaker A: Okay. Espresso is uh, is of course something that I cannot do without. But uh, but the supercharger is the mountaineering. This morning I had a couple hours where I could escape the, the desk. I do the miracle morning. So I wake up at five or six, start to work and then uh, around eight or nine I'm like, okay, I got a window. And when you do that and you actually go back to work, uh, it's an incredible feeling.

Speaker B: I can imagine One misconception about lng, you wish people would drop that.

Speaker A: It's, uh, the champagne of fuels. You know, it's, it's the nickname that always come to mind. Yes, it is high tech. Yes, it could be expensive, but we have a fantastic opportunity to make it more popular right now.

Speaker B: Makes sense. And I think we are on that track, uh, especially with the. Lots of productions happening around the world.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, next, one song or soundtrack that gets you ready for a big deal or climb.

Speaker A: When I want to do a deal and I want to be in a, uh, war machine mode, there is a song called Temple of Love by Sisters of Mercy.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: But it all depends on what kind of work you need to do. Spreadsheet or, um, drafting a document. But yeah, it can be rock and roll. So you have to get a lot of rock and roll tunes to go

Speaker B: along to get you going.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Interesting. If you weren't in lng, what would you be doing?

Speaker A: I could have become a mountain guide. You know, um, because I like it. I like to share passion with people. I like to take people to places. And, you know, as a, as a consultant or negotiator, this is what I do. I take people to places. I take them to Qatar, I take them to Algeria, take them to conferences. Actually, when you think about it, a mountain guide and a consultant are a bit the same. As a consultant, I'm telling my customers, you can go this way. Don't worry, you can trust that you are afraid, but you shouldn't. And on the same day, I could as well tell them, so here you want to go there, you think it's safe, but it's not. So that's very similar between guiding someone on a mountain and guiding someone, someone along, uh, an LNG trade or negotiation.

Speaker B: Oh, makes sense. And that's why you love both of them. Yeah, they look different, but they're saying

Speaker A: there's a lot of parallels between the two, to be honest.

Speaker B: Uh, that's great. That also bring us, uh, to conclusion of our conversation. But before we sign off, uh, if somebody is listening this conversation after five years, what one thing you want to remember or to pick from all this conversation.

Speaker A: I hope we will be right in our assumptions on the energy transition. But I do think that, uh, in five years time, LNG will be flourishing. I think we are at the start of the golden age of lng. Um, I'm not the only one to say that because it's getting more affordable, it's getting more available, and it's getting more sustainable. This is exactly the trilemma that we need to achieve. So in five years time, I think people, I hope at least that people will realize that, uh, it's a fantastic fuel. It is not standing across, it's not standing in the way of the energy transition. On the contrary, this is what I like people to, to remind.

Speaker B: Uh, we already spoke about multiple bias from diversity to how people approach to this market. But you have to underline one bias. What that would be and how can we come over it.

Speaker A: So you mean something that we would need to address?

Speaker B: Yes, yes.

Speaker A: Right. Well, maybe to believe that this industry is just the continuation of what it has been so far. I think we have to embrace change. It's true that this industry you cannot close your eyes on, um, where we come from because those who ignore the past are condemned to repeat it. So we need to understand the legacy of this LNG market, but we also need to understand that there are new generations of people and we're going to handle over to those people. You know, people who were not even born when I started in this industry are the traders of today or the traders of tomorrow. And it's very important that they make LNG live and strive in today's environment, in the way the world is working today.

Speaker B: That's great reminder. So with that we will close off our uh, conversation. But before I sign off, John, anything to add here?

Speaker A: I mean it's been a, uh, very nice conversation, very inspiring. Looking forward to watch, uh, the podcast actually. And uh, what I like is it's um, actually questioning your presence in this business. Uh, it's questioning my presence in this business. After 20 years, I must say I'm still pretty much passionate about it. So I hope I will remain passionate for the, the years to come.

Speaker B: Uh, you will be, John, like as you said, you love this industry and you have lots of, lots of insights to share. I think that passion will continue with that. I will sign off for today. Keep listening. Oil and gas breaking by show. See you next week. Thank you.

Speaker A: Thank you very much.