Bringing home the bacon - Seaboard’s recipe for renewable success

Speaker A: Welcome to Fuel for Thought Season seven, Episode eight. I'm Michele Copp.

Speaker B: And I'm Silva Verdier. Today we close out what has been a truly amazing season of really sensational guests with another great conversation that bridges agriculture and energy and innovation.

Speaker A: Our guest this time is Peter Rosenthal, CEO of Seaboard Energy, a company rooted in a century of grain, pork and logistics. Now building on that legacy to deliver biodiesel, renewable diesel and renewable natural gas,

Speaker B: we will discuss how Seaboard uses animal fats, used cooking oil and other agriculture by products to fuel its vertically integrated model, and how its operations are shaping cleaner energy pathways.

Speaker A: Peter also shares insights on navigating regulatory complexity, managing risk and safety in new technologies, and what it takes to transition from traditional agriculture into renewables.

Speaker B: So if you're curious about how agricultural heritage fuels, renewable innovation, and what's next for feedstocks and fuels, this season finale is one you don't want to miss. We are very fortunate today. Welcome Peter Ostenfeld Rosenthal, CEO of Seaboard Energy. Peter, how are you doing today?

Speaker C: I'm doing very well, thanks. What about yourself?

Speaker B: Good. I'm really looking forward to our discussion today to hear more about uh, your company, what you do, uh, all your exciting projects and plans ahead. But before we do that, do you mind introducing yourself a bit and your role at Seaboard Energy?

Speaker C: So my name is Peter Rosenthal. Had the pleasure of working across the mirror, basically the traditional oil and gas for many years and some interesting companies and in several different countries as well. I always in the latter part of my career here, after a number of years in the traditional part uh, of the oil and gas business, thought it would be nice to get into the renewable energy space. So I was very uh, fortunate to have a chance to join Seaboard Energy two years ago. And um, that's where I'm right now. And my role with Seaboard Energy is uh, I'm um, the president and CEO of Seaboard Energy.

Speaker B: Thank you, Peter. Some of our listeners might not be familiar with Seaborn Energy with a, uh, key player in the renewable fuel industry and segment. So can you give us a brief overview of your company, the journey and what exactly you are doing as a Seaboard Energy.

Speaker C: Actually Seaboard Energy we are um, part of Seaboard Corporation and Seaboard Corporation has been around for 100 plus years. It's a midwestern head office company. We are head office in Kansas City. And um, the company really is a very diverse company or group of companies, a Seabort Corporation that is. So it's really, it had its, has its Roots in agriculture and grain and it's still a big part of the company's portfolio. So we are a food company making lots of different kinds of food, mostly in the pork business. Also Butterball Turkey is one of our operations. We have a very large presence across the US People don't know our products as Seaboard Pork, but here in the US People will probably recognize our brands like Bailey's Bacon or Prairie Fresh. And we also um, have a large international grain logistics business and flour mills across many countries. And um, then we have a marine business so we run container ships between North America, South America and the Caribbean. And um, we have a number of other business uh, like ethanol and sugarcane in Argentina. And then about um, probably around uh, 2005, 6, 7ish, that timeframe way before I joined Seaboard. Seaboard decided uh, to want to make something more valuable out of the byproducts of our pork operations. So we do have some feed packing plant and one one in Guyman, Oklahoma is one of, is a big seed packing plant. Wanted to uh, see if we could make something out of the basically waste fat from those operations and decided to build a biodiesel plant basically in the backyard of that uh, meat packing plant. That was the beginning of Seaboard Energy that um, led further to another biodiesel plant in St. Joseph, uh, now north of Kansas City that was acquired and started up in 2016. And then later the company decided to venture into renewable diesel. And um, we now have a renewable diesel operation ah planned out in Hugoton Kansas which is southwestern corner of Kansas. And so we are making both biodiesel renewable diesel. And we also have a uh, fairly large solar power plant out in that Hugoton operation. And we decided also to wanted to have our own unit train terminal operation in California where a lot of our products go to California due to their very successful low carbon fuel standard programs over there. So we own a terminal in the Central Valley of California where we can bring our uh, renewable diesel and biodiesel straight into an important market for us. So that's a little bit about who we are as a company. And um, we believe, and I believe that renewable fuels um, is actually very, it's a fantastic business from the point of view that it is good um, for the farmers here in the United States. It really is very symbiotic with the farming community. Soybean oil is going in of course, renewable diesel and biodiesel and other oils that are grown distillers. Corn oil is another important uh, feedstock for us. And then of course, waste products from meat production. So it's good for farmers. It's actually good for the country because it's, uh, clearly part of energy independence and energy security. And it is good also for the local environment because where we burn our fuels and engines, the tailpipe pollution is much, much less than burning normal petroleum diesel. And last but not least, it is really good for the planet because the greenhouse gas emissions from our fuel is much, much less than traditional fuels. So it's a fascinating business, uh, and it feels really good. We are part of something that's important for many groups and stakeholders, including, by the way, typically, the small communities where we have our plants. We are an important partner for those communities, and we believe we create something valuable for them as well.

Speaker B: And I actually don't know any other company who have, basically covering the whole value chain. I think, uh, Seaboard Corporation and Seaboard Energy is quite a unique company. So I'm really, really happy you can spend time together. I have one more question for the introduction before we, uh, deep dive into the renewable fuel operation of the plants you already mentioned. But what are some of the key challenges and opportunities you see right now for Seaboard Energy? Are you, like, you're expanding into this renewable fuel portfolio? You have maybe more feedstocks? What is it you see out there? Now? Because it's a very dynamic, uh, market, Peter.

Speaker C: It is, very much so. And, uh, it's a market and it's a business that's highly integrated into the. You could say the political environment, uh, because, say, renewable fuels as a direct competitor to petroleum diesel as a burning fuel, if you can call it that. If you're, if you're just looking for a cheap fuel to put into your engine. It is very difficult for us as an industry to compete with petroleum diesel simply because our feedstock is much more expensive than the crude oil that you can get out of the ground. So that's one of the inherent challenges that our feedstock, which is renewable feedstock, meaning waste products like animal fats, used cooking oil, again, soybean oil, and other oils from the plant we can grow here in the country and other places, that feedstock is just much more expensive. So if we were just competing on, um, price alone in an environment where there was no incentives, uh, to produce the kind of fuels we are doing, it wouldn't be possible financially to do it. So that's one of the ongoing challenges, um, and opportunities, of course, as well, that we are so heavily integrated. Like you probably know about the renewable fuel standards in, uh, The US that have been around for a long time, it actually was born as a energy security program. And that uh, generates. It allows us to generate what's called winds, which is something that the traditional refiners have to buy to offset the fact that they can't blend enough renewable fuels into their fuels. So it's just one of the instruments that we have to work with to make it also financially viable. So that's an ongoing challenge that the whole industry has. Um, I do believe the US has quite an advanced set of incentives. So there's federal incentives like this and then some states have been very much on the forefront on our industry. California is clearly the one that has been on the forefront with their own low carbon fuel standard programs that also generates opportunities, uh, in terms of credits we can get if we actually make fuel here and sell it into California. So the, the other thing I would say is, um, traditionally I believe this industry has focused around actually selling into the markets that are really looking for fuel. And because of these different incentives, it has still been possible to make it into a viable business. We believe, I believe strongly that our products are much better from an environmental point of view, both local and global environmental point of view. And the fact that we create interesting jobs in local rural communities is also something unique to, I think to us compared to many more traditional oil and gas operations. We have uh, an opportunity to start working with customers that are looking for more than just fuel or cheap fuel. So we are very much, uh, in the space of going more into having discussions with companies that see us as, as a solution partner for their own environmental goals and aspirations. Quite a few companies will have their own sustainability targets and greenhouse gas emission targets. And I believe we can be a very important partner for companies that want to take that serious. And um, we are starting to move into that space. And that's really a fascinating journey of transformation for us as well.

Speaker B: So this is more the voluntary market Peter you mentioned. So some company wants to minimize their emission and they buy fuel or credit from you. Is that the trends you are seeing?

Speaker C: There's ah, a. It's a lot of. It's mostly a voluntary market, you could say there are actually certain parts uh, of the value chain that has mandates, um, like sustainable aviation fuel is, is uh, there are mandates in Europe coming 20, 30 and there is um, also in some of the northeastern states. In the United States there are mandates for blending biofuels into heating oil for instance. So it's a mixture of uh, uh, voluntary and some mandated um, changes. But There is a lot of companies that are actually having their targets for they want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions and we can help. The difficult sectors, uh, in terms of certain sectors are very difficult to decarbonize. Like shipping is one. Uh, long haul trains is another one. Clearly aviation is another one. I know people are looking at different options as well, but there's no real hydrogen powered trains around the corner, at least not the long haul routes here in the United States. You don't see any electrical planes flying across the Atlantic yet. There is some hard to decarbonize sectors where we can be a very good solution for companies and industries that want to move that agenda forward.

Speaker B: So Peter, you mentioned you have two biodiesel plants, one renewable diesel and I think you might have a renewable natural gas plant, rng. If I remember how was that journey to go from a, uh, agriculture farming company and turning into a uh, renewable fuel company. Do you want to share any insights, some of the challenges you experience?

Speaker C: I'm happy to talk about that. Um, it was most of that initial steps of that journey happened before I joined Seaboard. Uh, so this is just what I, what I kind of have heard. So. And by the way, you're right in terms of we also produce renewable natural gas or RNG that is not produced directly by Seaboard Energy. It's produced by our sister company, Seaboard, uh, Foods. So Seaboard Foods, uh, have um, I mentioned we have a packing plant in Diamond, Oklahoma and also have some joint venture plants as well other parts of the country. We have many, many. We call them barns or people could call them pork farms or pig farms. We have a lot of them across the United States, especially in the central part. And basically the manure from those operations, uh, we can take and put into big ponds, uh, and we call them lagoons. Basically. You put a. It sounds very simple and it's in one way is, in practice it's not so simple. But you can put a big tap across uh, a pond like that and then the manure will generate gas and you can collect that gas under the tops and you clean it up and then you can sell it as renewable gas. Uh, and uh, there will also be credits associated with that renewable gas. And actually since we are taking a complete waste product that would otherwise the gas, the methane produced by the manure would go straight into the atmosphere as on, as unburned methane. And you probably know that unburned methane is a very, very strong greenhouse gas and much stronger and much more potent than uh, CO2. So the fact that we take that and actually turn it into gas. Makes that gas uh, very, very renewable, if I can use that terminology. So from a carbon intensity or CI score point of view, it's really, really

Speaker B: isn't it negative carbon intensity almost?

Speaker C: Oh, it's very negative. Several hundred negative CI scores. Very, very, very good. Uh, from a CI point of view, leading carbon intensity point of view. So we started um, these projects a few years ago and um, we have now developed quite a decent network of uh, sorts ponds and collection facilities. And um, it's a fascinating industry and it's also for us an opportunity to sometimes some of our customers are looking at not only liquid fuels, biodiesel and renewable diesel, but also would be interested in the gas side of things. So um, it's just another leg we have to stand on in terms of offering more holistic solutions to our customers. The journey I think I mentioned here before, it really started with somebody visionary before me looking at the pork plant in Guyman, Oklahoma and said what can we do? How can we turn this waste product that we were selling to somebody else at the time, basically the waste fat from on the packing, meat packing operation, how do we turn that into a better and more valuable product? And we had some people that decided let's try to build a biodiesel plant. And that's what they did. And um, it turned out to be a really good uh, plant. And we still have that as one of our plants. That's our first plant. We call it our Gaiman plant. That's how the journey really started and then it kind of took off from there. So in many ways it was a natural step from the pork operation to take a, ah, look at what can we do. So we are not just having a low value byproduct or uh, waste product. Can we use something better? Can we do something better with that product? So that's how it started. The company I also have for a long time another business we have is um, actually power generation, both in Argentina and also in the uh, Dominican Republic. And so the idea of making energy was not new to the company either. So I think that was part of the reason why it was maybe a somewhat more straightforward decision to do than other companies that didn't have the energy side of things uh, as well.

Speaker B: What about going from biodiesel to renewable diesel? So biodiesel is a simpler at least from, I'm a chemical engineer. So when I look at it from a chemical engineer perspective it's pretty simple reaction. But you have your plant in Kansas. If I'm not mistaken. Producing a renewable diesel, it requires so hydrogen, high pressure. And how was that jump for you? Maybe it was also done, uh, before your time, Peter, but how was that jump from a seaboard energy perspective to go from a low, um, very mature technology to something that's maybe more capex intensive? Because I guess all the planets were aligned in terms of uh, credits and regulations. But can you share a few words maybe from ah, your perspective, Peter, on this?

Speaker C: I think it was a fairly natural step with having two biodiesel plants in operation and actually had. I'd had a good uh, experience being in the biodiesel market and I think it was, I say the step was mostly in terms of renewable diesel was starting to become more natural and more known technology. And of course the renewable diesel product itself is a more easy to use product in many ways, uh, because It's a direct 100% drop in fuel. So any diesel engine that can run on petroleum diesel can run on, you're just put it into the gas tank, so to speak, or the diesel tank and it'll run on renewable diesel. So it's very easy to use, uh, that kind of product. And it was a great opportunity to say maybe we can supplement our biodiesel, which is a little bit more, you need, you need to know a little bit more about how to use biodiesel the right way. It's a fantastic product, I really like it. But it needs blending typically, unless you are doing uh, some more actually technologies out there that allow engines to run 100% biodiesel. But we can come back to that maybe. But renewable diesel was a very natural step into augmenting our biodiesel fuel portfolio with a fuel that is 100% drop in. And um, this has also been good for us and we sometimes do our blending with biodiesel and renewable diesel. When we sell it to customers, sometimes they do the blending and we can also. Renewable diesel, we have much more control over the cloud point, which is a little technical terminology here. But cloud point is really the temperature at which diesel starts to cloud up, hence the name cloud point. And if diesel fuel starts to cloud, it'll plug up, uh, fuel filters and give you a lot of grief if you operate, uh, an engine on that fuel. So you need to stay away from the cloud point or actually have to have the fuel at temperatures above the cloud point. And renewable diesel, we can control the cloud point very precisely. So we can actually make um, the cloud point so low so we can produce what in some places would be Called an Arctic diesel spec. Uh, with a renewable diesel that is not really possible, uh, with biodiesel, it typically has a higher cloud point and needs to be blended or you can do other things to take care of that. So it just adds diversification in terms of our fuel solutions that we would like to work with our customers to provide them with. So it was a natural step. It was a big step actually for the, the company. First time, the company we built that. It was a greenfield project. We built the renewable refinery, renewable diesel refinery. We built it from actually as a greenfield project. Most of it at least I'd have to say. We bought an old ethanol plant out there in southwestern Kansas that had actually never really worked. But there were some things we could reuse, uh, some utilities we could reuse, um, and some buildings and some tanks. But the heart of the plant we built from this from scratch, the hydrogen plant, the renewable diesel unit and a number of other supporting units, the pre treatment facilities, all of that was built as a greenfield project. And I have to say that was a pretty, I would call it a brave decision by the Seaboard Corporation to jump into that, having never tried to build a fairly complex processing plant before, at least not in that space. And um, I think we have learned a lot and uh, the plant uh, is starting to run really well. But it's been a learning process and we have brought in over the last couple of years, brought in a number of technical, strong, talented people that can help us making the operation both safe and reliable. Uh, safe actually is the most important thing for me personally because when you're dealing with this kind of operation, especially renewable diesel plants, the high temperature, high pressure, you're dealing with something that can go terribly wrong if you don't know what you're doing. We put a lot of emphasis into making sure it is safe from a process safety point of view and also from a personal safety point of view.

Speaker B: I think it's a very inspiring story and uh, I think some of our listeners might uh, work in companies somehow similar to you. So I think it gives them hopefully a lot of food for thoughts. Another question it's about because you are controlling your whole uh, value chain and uh, you integrate it, you control your feed, uh, fully to my knowledge. So do you have any piece of advice you could share with some of our listeners on how to have to ensure a reliable supply chain from integrating basically your feed and your production plants? Any tips, advice you may share or is it a simple things to do?

Speaker C: It is actually in many ways what we do is fairly simple and in many ways it's not. I tend to say we do three things. Um, we just need to do all of them very well. We buy or uh, source feedstock, which is again it could be animal fat, it could be um, used cooking oil, it could be soybean oil, distillers, corn oil and other oils. So we source feedstock, then we turn the feedstock into fuel and we have to do that very reliably and very safely. And then we sell it. But we want to sell it. Not just selling fuel, we want to sell actually um, environmental solutions. And that is fairly uh, complex actually. That can go from anywhere to selling fuels with associated credits. Uh, we can generate um, and that's a new thing we are starting to move into. We can generate scope three certifications. We can help and sell to our customers, or we can help our customers sell to their customers. So that's a fairly new thing for us as well. And that requires really a lot of in depth understanding of um, regulations, environmental, uh, attributes, uh, how does, what is Escort 1, 2 and 3 emission and how do we turn that into something that can actually be sold to somebody. So I think it's a fairly complex value chain. But in principle it's simple. I believe we have a really strong, we have this agricultural heritage in Seaboard Corporation. That's how the company started. It's still a big part of the company and it's at the heart of everything the company does. But it also therefore I think we understand the feedstock side of things probably as well as anybody and that's very helpful for us. We have also recently moved into using more and more what's called IICC certified feedstock. And with the risk of saying it wrong, but it's kind of. IRCC is an international carbon certification program. Basically it's a way of getting. We cannot just say this feedstock is certified. It has to go through an actual certification process. And once our feedstock is certified and our facilities are certified as ICC facilities, we can now produce and sell ISCC certified fuels. That gives us a really interesting opportunity vis a vis our customers. And some customers really want that because it helps them to be more um, you could say objective in their reporting of their greenhouse gas journey that it has that certification stamp on it. So um, that's something I believe we are getting good at. So it is a fairly complex set of things we need to know about to make it successful. So uh, that is something we have spent quite a bit of time on developing over the last 12 to 18 months. So uh, to have a significant portfolio of IRCC certified fuels.

Speaker B: It's quite fascinating to see all the new competencies you are developing, adding how you adjust to the market and uh, the needs of the market for at least now is actually we had a podcast recording with ICC nrsb. I think it's season two or three, so it's a few seasons back where they explain exactly how certification works and so forth. Yes, indeed. The value of the product is often in the proof of sustainability and having it done right by the right people is critical, uh, to confirm the value of the product. How does Seaboard Energy operate in this highly regulated industry? And it's quite a complex. Even though if you just look at the US credit, so you have RIN credit, LCFS, you have the uh, formerly known as IRA, now I think it's called OB3 credit with 45Z. Then you have Illinois giving some credit and so forth. So it's quite complex. So how does Seaboard Energy operate in this uh, regulatory environment? Uh, any thoughts or advice for our listeners?

Speaker C: That's a very good question. I spoke the other day with a colleague of mine from a different industry and he said, um, now he works in this business as well, in the renewable fuels business, but different company. We were talking a little bit and he said, uh, our business is really complex. And he said I've worked in a number of different businesses and most businesses have an input variable and output variable and that's it. And think um, about it as a traditional oil company, you basically either find or you buy crude oil and you turn it into, refine it into some different products you sell. That's kind of it. Our business has all of those things. So we don't have just two variables like the input and output. We also have that feedstock and sales of fuel. But then we have all these, uh, as you mentioned, different uh, programs. So we probably have five or six different variables like RENS, LCFS, 45C credits, local and state mandates. Um, so it's a significantly more complex business from, uh, that point of view. But it also makes it really fascinating and interesting. So I think the best thing I can say is we try to understand of course the rules and regulations very well. So number one, we can actually comply to rules and regulations and do it correctly. The other thing is, uh, it creates opportunities and challenges at the same time. And I think the better we are informed about what's coming and what's not coming and how it might play out. You might have followed recently the EPA actually sent out yes in the summer, new proposed RBO or renewable volume obligation, uh, proposals for 26 and 27. And it was actually, actually quite, we were quite pleased with what we saw as those proposed regulations. But then there's, over the last few days there has been news about how small refinery exemptions will be um, dealt with, which is another impact on renewable volume obligations and therefore the value of rents. Sorry, I'm getting a little bit into the weeds here.

Speaker B: But it's, I know, but it's very, it's very good, Peter.

Speaker C: So it's complex picture to understand and of course we are trying to project what we think will happen but it is not so easy because these are typically. It's a mixture of market demands and political decisions and um, what we tend to say and ask for, especially through we are a member of the, what's called um, Clean Fuels Alliance America. It's basically the great organization for fuel producers and, and growers of feedstock and also users in many ways of the fuel. So, and I'm very fortunate to be on the, on the board of that organization. And what we really ask for when we talk with politicians and people that have impact on policy is we need stability and predictability as much as possible and we need long term predictability. So I was happy to see that uh, for instance 45C was actually from the first version of it that came out earlier this year to the one that was put in the big bill that came out here recently from the administration, that it had a uh, little bit more longevity built into it. So it is going longer than the first version. And that's exactly what we need as an industry so we can plan because we are making investment decisions and other decisions based on what we see the political landscape looks like in terms of credit values and the more stability and predictability and longevity we have as an industry, the easier is it for us to make good decisions. That's probably the most important thing we, we are looking for is predictability. And um, yeah, I think we're getting, we are getting actually some good progress. I like what I see with the 45C and the longevity of that one. There are still things I, I would like much better in that I think um, the renewable volume obligations that was issued as, again as, as drafts, they're not final regulations. I think they are definitely heading in the right direction. So that's a little bit about how we see and how we work with it. But it is a complicated landscape to navigate and that also makes it fascinating and Sometimes we find opportunities as well.

Speaker B: Yes. For our listeners. Just so you know, we are recording this podcast end of August 25th. It might come, uh, later. So things in terms of regulation might have changed or been modified just in case some of the things we say, uh, change when they come out. And another point for our listeners, we will have another episode actually on regulations with a colleague from D.C. who will explain how we actually monitor all these changes and uh, with another former colleague as well. So a lot of insights about regulation in this uh, season. Peter, I have a question about collaboration and risk. So you addressed it uh, earlier already, but let's spend maybe a bit more time on that. So going from business to something a bit less known like renewable diesel plant or rng. New technologies for you, how does Seaboard Energy manage this risk associated with new technologies? It was a big jump, a bold jump, as you might have said. So uh, how was the risk managed? Is it through partners, through, I guess a lot of homework, through collaborations? What did it take for you to manage a risk?

Speaker C: It depends. Risk is, uh, there can be many risks, anything from process safety risks to commercial risks to technological risks. Um, so that's a big question. Um, but, um, I would say, um, I think it's good to uh, in any business and also for us, and especially actually when you move into new areas like renewable diesel was for us, I think it's important to find the right technology partners. And I'm very happy with our relationship with Topsu. I think it's been very, very good collaboration between us, both Topsu and ourselves. Uh, to me it's important to work with partners that really are good at what they do and think long term and think high quality. When you're dealing actually with technically challenging operations, uh, that also have a significant potential for process safety incidents, it's really important that you know what you're doing. And um, I'm happy with our partnership. Um, we have other partnerships we are happy with. Um, we have really built fairly quickly our technical and operational capabilities inside Seaboard Energy. And it's critical for us to do that because, um, when we are dealing with things that can burn and explode basically, and when you're having fluids that are above auto ignition point, which basically means if we have a leak, it'll immediately ignite by itself. You just need to know what you're doing. As an old colleague of mine from a previous company said, when you're boiling oil for a living, you better know what you're doing and do it very well. And uh, that's exactly what we see. We are boiling oil for a living and at very high temperatures and crushers and we need to know what we are doing. So we put a lot of emphasis into having the right technical expertise in the company. I'm also very happy to say we have just uh, developed our own uh, internal operating management system that's really focused on safety, process safety and quality basically. And that'll help us become better and better over time. There's continuous improvement processes built into it and a lot about how do we know? It's a really good question by the way, when you're in the process safety space and by the way, I think it's useful in many different spaces. A colleague of mine once called it, um, you cannot rely on assumption management, meaning you can't just think and assume that things happen the way you would like them to happen. You actually have to go and check that it works and that we call it self verification. And we have built that into our management system and it's something we are working on implementing and getting better at. But it is about, we cannot just assume that things are going right. We can't assume that this and this safety system is working. We need to check it regularly and if we find mistakes we need to check it more frequently. Uh, and then we need to figure out how to improve and maybe we need to change and improve the technology and find another pump or another sensor that is uh, performing better or maybe we need to add more safety guards in our operation. So that's um, that is very important to us. Um, we have actually a goal to become global top quartile in process safety, uh, in our space and in this case I include refining and chemicals because that's really what we do. It's a pretty lofty goal, but I believe it's an important goal. I believe that in the space of safety, zero is possible, meaning zero incidents, zero people getting hurt. And that's what we are working very hard to achieve.

Speaker B: So how much learning were there to gain from traditional energy companies? Did you get people who used to work in refineries or how was that? Because there's so much learning, also so much focus on safety in refineries. Any thoughts or comments on this?

Speaker C: Yeah, clearly the people, quite a few of the people we now employ in the more operational roles come from the traditional oil and gas or chemicals, uh, sector. Our uh, engineering director, she is from the chemicals industry where process safety probably was born really in many ways, uh, because of some big chemical unfortunate disasters in the past. So we have a lot of learnings, uh, we have been able to tap into by bringing people in from either the chemical industry or different refining or other typical energy industries where safety has been a big focus over decades. And there's a lot of similarities. It's actually the same. Our renewable diesel refineries is completely similar as a normal refinery. Um, it actually smells much better because it doesn't smell like petroleum, it smells more like bacon. But it is otherwise very similar. So we have learned a lot from that and we still learn a lot and we try to share learnings with other operators. And um, I think in terms of safety there's nothing proprietary, there's no secrets. We want to share and learn, um, so we can avoid people getting hurt. So I think there's a lot of learnings that helped us there. But there's also a lot of new things I really like to learn as I've learned a tremendous amount over the last two years about feedstock, about renewable fuels, about how to apply them the best way and um, how to create solutions that help our customers uh, meet their environmental sustainability targets. So it's a, I really enjoy it. It's been a fantastic learning curve and I've just started to learn. I will continue to learn for many years to come.

Speaker B: Let's move towards the last part of our uh, discussion Peter. We're trying to look ahead. So what are Siboard's energy key priorities for the next five to 10 years within renewable fuel, uh, industry? Do you have new projects in the pipeline or any is business as usual. Any thoughts on this, Peter?

Speaker C: Maybe being from Denmark originally and uh, the thing is people will recognize a uh, philosopher, I guess you could call him called Stompy. He said something along those lines is difficult to predict especially about the future. And I think that is actually true. I believe that a number of industries that are hard to decarbonize, and I said it before, will realize that renewable fuels being biodiesel or renewable diesel is one of the few solutions that actually is ready available right now. And by the way, interesting fact, if you are abating CO2 today instead of abating it five years from now, it's much more efficient to do it today instead of five years from now from a global warming point of view. So we have a solution that's available, it's ready, it can be deployed right now. That is a fantastic place to be and especially when people are starting to realize, which I think more and more people will realize that this is one of the few solutions that are available right now and will be probably for the next quite a few years. I hope, of course, other good solutions will come along. But right now we are one of the few that actually can help against some big sectors that are difficult to decarbonize. And, um, the other side of that coin is that there's for the current availability of feedstock, there's only so much feedstock available actually in the US or Europe or in the whole world for that matter. So there's a limit for how many gallons or barrels of renewable fuel we can make. So I'm a strong believer in that. In the next years we will see, uh, a demand that is bigger than the supply and that is always a good place to be in. That's my personal belief, and I hope I'm right, of course. But I think that will happen whether it's 20, 30. And again, I believe there's a number of big organizations globally that still have and are, uh, working hard to deliver on their commitments and targets in terms of reduction of greenhouse gases. So I see that as, uh, one of the future elements. And, um, I think also we will probably see also in the next years more innovative feedstocks being developed. Whether it's cover crops like Camelina that can be used in certain parts of the world, including U.S. and Canada. It could be one day if somebody cracks the algae nut. If I can hold it like that and make feedstock out of algae growth, that's a nearly infinite amount of feedstock that could be produced that way. That will change the industry a whole lot. So far it's actually possible to do it out of algae. It's just not commercially, uh, a good idea right now. I do think one day those things will happen and therefore we will have more fuel available for the people that want it and need it. So I think it's just a fascinating time to be. And I, uh, think the future will be even greater. I can't really comment on what we will do. I believe we have a positive outlook. I have a positive outlook on what we do. And if you have that, um, life is not so bad.

Speaker B: I have two last questions for you, Peter, for today. So you mentioned, uh, it's about emerging technology, things you are monitoring or following up. You mentioned already innovative feedstock, which is really good, uh, rotational crops, maybe algae. Fingers crossed. Uh, it can scale up at decent prices. Any other technologies, emerging technology or trends you're monitoring said, uh, this could really help and, uh, make a difference.

Speaker C: So we also produce solar power. I mentioned that a little bit. We have two Solar plants. One in Hugoton in Kansas. Uh, I believe it's the second largest solar plant in Kansas by the way. I'm not exactly sure whether that's true or not, but it's at least a big one. And we also have one on our Madera plant in California, another solar plant there. I think, uh, solar clearly is evolving quickly and becoming very efficient for us, uh, to use solar more efficiently because the sun doesn't shine at night. So we need to find a way of seeing. We can use the power that we generate at daytime also to power our facilities at nighttime so that we are looking at seeing how can we do that, whether it's working with um, with the uh, energy suppliers to do that or uh, whether it is, uh. I believe there is some interesting emerging technologies around, um, energy storage that's being worked on. Not the transportation batteries because they're too expensive to use for industrial purposes. But I think there will be some interesting development around, um, heavy duty energy storage solutions that can allow renewable sources of energy like solar or wind to be balanced across the times when the sun doesn't shine or uh, it doesn't blow, uh, any winds. And we'll be looking at those because that could be helpful for us in our operations. Because I would like to power our operations. The more we can power our operations with renewable energy ourselves, the better product we make from an environmental point of view and therefore our value. Our credits will also be higher because they are depending on our CEI scores or carbon intensity. So those are clearly interesting for us to look into.

Speaker B: Thank you, Peter, last question for you. It's uh, if you could share one piece of advice with uh, our listeners. It could be regulators, it could be people in your situation. There could be refiners, it could be, yeah, I don't know technology developers about the rainbow fuel industry. What would it be? Doesn't have to be technical, any sort. It can be more than one piece of advice, of course. What would it be, Peter?

Speaker C: Believing in that we can make the world better than it is today and we can start already today.

Speaker B: I think that's a fantastic piece of advice. We've been lucky to have in this season a lot of uh, top managers like you, Peter, and each final word is actually quite inspiring. So I like this one as well. So thank you so much Peter. Uh, it was a pleasure discussing with you. Uh, I took notes all the way. I'm um, pretty sure listeners would have learned a lot as well. So thank you very much again for your time. Best of luck for the Next, uh, endeavors and progress of Seaboard Energy. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me. It was a great pleasure.

Speaker B: So, Mikaela, I've known you have known, uh, Seaboard for a long time. Can you say a few words about that?

Speaker A: Maybe? Yeah. Yes, I've known Seaboard for a long time and sort of a fun fact is that I was sitting on a train with a team from the Seaboard from Gothenburg in Sweden on our way to Copenhagen when they chose their logo. So I was actually the happy, uh, participant in the brainstorming. In the brainstorming or they had different, uh, logos in the same theme and we talked about which one that I also liked. I can't recall if that's the one they picked, but I think it's fun.

Speaker B: Yeah, it goes a long way back.

Speaker A: Yes, a long way back.

Speaker B: I think that's the point I wanted to make. So Mikaela, what do you take out of the conversation we've just had?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think I knew a bit of the story, but I didn't know all of it. And what really struck me is that this is a company that has the entire value chain, right? They have all the way from, uh, farmers pig barns, I think they called them, to slaughterhouses that collect the animal fed to biodiesel plant, to a renewable diesel plant, to a diet distribution terminal. So it's quite unique.

Speaker B: It's a one man show then, you know what I mean?

Speaker A: One company show.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: And I think that's uh, this whole value chain view is quite inspiring and also, as you said, totally unique.

Speaker B: Yes, but also it can be inspiring. You and I, we've had discussion with people who have. Not the same company, but companies who are across the whole entire value chain and they are looking like, could we make this kind of fuel. So I think for me it's a very, uh, inspiring, uh, story. And I believe there are more of these projects coming. People who are controlling the entire value chain.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Controlling the value chain or having part of it really matters. And I think what's really interesting is this step change, right, that they start out having some. I don't know if they started out with renewable natural gas or renewable or biodiesel. And then of course producing renewable diesel is a completely different thing. It's a different technology, it's a different process. But still when you have a biodiesel plant, you know the feedstock, you know the logistics around handling liquid fuel. And I think also you know quite a bit about the legislation. Right.

Speaker B: I need to say this, but okay. Peter is a CEO of a company and he knew. And my job is just to manage our regulation. Not just, but that's what I do. He knew more than me about regulations. So how like he's a CEO of a company, but it shows the importance of the business case. That's why he's knowing it. He mastered uh, all the latest changes. What was still in there, what was still to be decided. It was very, for me enlightening to see that a CEO understand the details so much because it's so critical for the business case. So I was really, uh, yeah, at one point I think I said I was starstruck and it's true, I was really. No, but I was so inspired and I was like, wow. It's because he has other things to do, I guess as a CEO, but it's so critical that he masters it to perfection. So that was really, uh, elevating for me to see that.

Speaker A: But this whole point about having this gradual development of that business is very inspiring, I think. And again, it also underlines the fact that it is easier building.

Speaker B: Yes, they don't start from scratch.

Speaker A: They don't start from scratch. But building upon the knowledge that you

Speaker B: already have and the balance sheet you have as well, you cannot talk about that.

Speaker A: That cannot be ignored.

Speaker B: And I think it worked in the US ecosystem because also of the entrepreneur, uh, spirit and the ecosystem there that's favoring this kind of project.

Speaker A: And what I also like, in essence, I think it is very much a farmer point of view, is that you need to utilize all resources exactly like there can be no waste. What do you say?

Speaker B: Exactly. So I'm a farmer, so that's also how I was raised. But it's indeed, it's uh, not common sense, but it's how to be creative. This is what you have and how to reuse a waste. A waste is not a waste. A waste can be used to something else. So how can you maximize your profit by using this way? So for me it's a very inspiring project. We sometimes talk about these unicorn projects where all the planets are aligned and I think this is one of them and I believe there's more out there. So my wish, hope is that from this podcast to plant a seed of people to be creative and I know they are the donators to do it, but to show it's possible and it can happen in the right environment. I think for me that's a, uh, take home message from this podcast.

Speaker A: I think so too. I completely agree. And I think it further underlines this whole process about of course we're talking about the value chain, but again, it has to be somewhat of a circle, right? And I think that Seaboard Energy has managed to wrap that.

Speaker B: Yes, because the ecosystem was there of the risk supporting entrepreneur and regulation was there. So they had the planets aligned at national level.

Speaker A: And let's hope for more companies like this to have the curiosity to, uh, endeavor into this area.

Speaker B: And I have no doubt based on a conversation I've had in the last month that such projects will happen as well.

Speaker A: More and more indeed.

Speaker B: Thank you, Mikaela.

Speaker A: Thank you, Zulwan.

Speaker B: Well, well, well. That wraps up season seven of the Fuel for Thought podcast from Topsoe. A warm, um, thank you to Peter Rosenthal from joining us, and to you, of course, our dear listeners, for following along this season.

Speaker A: If you enjoyed today's episode, please share it with colleagues or friends who are as passionate as we are about the energy future and don't go far. We'll be back with season eight with fresh insights, bold ideas and new voices from across the energy landscape. See you next season. Bye.

Speaker B: Sam m.