***Special archive -#256 Vince Beiser - Author of Power Metal, "The destructive side effects that the global hunt for critical metals."

Speaker A: Nexus PMG welcomes you to the Bigger Than Us podcast, which we as energy geeks lovingly refer to as the btu. Bigger Than Us is a podcast that focuses on ideas that will shape the future of our planet and ultimately our existence. We will occasionally lean into energy topics because, after all, it's the key to our collective survival. But we'll also explore other ideas and topics and that we believe will have an impact that is bigger than us. And now onto today's show. Hello and welcome to the Bigger Than Us podcast. I'm your host, Raj Daniels, and today I'd like to welcome back to the show Vince Beiser. In Power Metal, award winning journalist Vince Beiser. Chris chronicles the destructive side effects that the global hunt for critical metals has on our clean energy transition. From environmental damage to political upheaval to murder. Vince has reported from over 100 countries, states, provinces, kingdoms, occupied territories, no man's lands and disaster zones. Vince, how are you doing today?

Speaker B: Doing great, Raj. It's good to be back here. How are you doing, Vince?

Speaker A: I am doing fantastic. Um, I'm just going to jump right to it. You have a new book coming out later this year in November, November 19, I believe, specifically called Power Metal. Um, do you just enjoy the punishment?

Speaker B: I just don't know how to stop at this point. I've just been doing this kind of thing so long, I'm just stuck. I'm like an addict. I know it's killing me, but I can't stop.

Speaker A: You know, our last conversation was your book about sand, which I thoroughly enjoyed and, you know, probably tore my kids to bits talking about sand. And then I've been reading your power metal over the last couple of weeks. Power Metal. What is power metal and what made you chase this story?

Speaker B: So, yeah, so power metal, it's sort of the shorthand for the metals that we need for both the, uh, uh, energy transition and, uh, digital technology. Right. It's, you know, they also more commonly get called critical minerals or technology metals or battery metals. But basically it's the, it's the basket of things like lithium and cobalt, copper, rare earths, etc. That we are going to need billions of tons of in order to pull off the energy transition. Because what people forget, you know, is that yes, wind power, solar power, electric cars, these things are all great for the climate for sure, they're great for the atmosphere. But to build them all, to build all those electric vehicles, to build all those batteries, to build all our cell phones and computers and all of our wind turbines and solar Panels, those things are made out of metal, and metal comes out of the earth. And digging up that much, that enormous amount of metals that we're going to need out of the earth is already causing some metal major problems. Big environmental problems, big social problems, everything from. From environmental destruction to murder. So the book is really sort of addressing that, sort of, um, giving kind of a tour of. Of some of the main middles metals that we're talking about and the problems that they're causing all over the world, and then also trying to look at. At solutions. Right? Because we can't just say, oh, no, this is terrible. You know, cobalt mining in Africa is, you know, leading to children being forced to work in mines, so let's not have cobalt. Well, we need cobalt. We absolutely need it. We absolutely need it for batteries and so on. So how can we do it better? How can we get the materials that we need without trashing the planet and exploiting and, uh, impoverishing people in the process?

Speaker A: Now, first of all, as a reader, I really appreciate the length of the book. 200 pages, relatively easy read. I come across sometimes books like, you know, in this genre that are three, 400 pages, and it just. You need three or 400 pages, in my opinion. But to give you an idea, in 200 pages, I'm looking at my copy right now. I probably have somewhere between 60 and 80 dog ears. So we would be here for three hours if it was up to me. Um, there is one particular story that I want to talk to you about, but what were some of your favorite parts of the book that you enjoyed reading or you had, aha. Moments as you were traveling around writing the book?

Speaker B: I would definitely say that I really. The stuff that surprised me the most is really in the second half of the book where I try to get into solutions or ways in which we can do it better. Um, because in talking to people about this stuff, there are lots of people working on these issues. There's lots of environmental groups and human rights groups that are out there documenting all the very real problems that are created by our, uh, mining of, you know, nickel in Indonesia and copper in Central Africa and so on. So, you know, my question for those folks was always like, okay, agree, these are terrible problems, but we need this stuff, so how can we get it? And the answer that I always got was recycling. We should just be doing a lot more recycling. And at first when I heard that, I was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Sure. Recycling's good, right? You just take a thing you've already used and you recycle it. And that's great. But when I started really looking into it, into what that means, um, especially in the context of metals and batteries and technology, you know, things like trying to recycle an iPhone or trying to recycle an electric vehicle battery, well, it turns out it's incredibly difficult, it's very dangerous and it's often very dirty. That whole process. Recycling can be tremendously polluting and it's often done on the backs of some of the poorest people in the world. So that was really fascinating was, was getting into that. Not to say that recycling is a bad thing. We should be doing more recycling. It is better than building stuff out of fresh virgin materials. But it is not a panacea by any means. Um, so I spent some time in Nigeria for instance, um, hanging out with waste pickers, people who collect old, uh, e waste basically. Old broken down digital and electronic gadgets, old phones and old laptops and computers and gather them up to sell them to recyclers. Um, and you know, big picture, that's a good thing. But you know, also it comes with tremendous downsides. You know, the, the environmental pollution that's created in places like that, the terrible conditions that a lot of these folks work under. That was stuff that I really, I really did not know anything about and was very, uh, it was really eye opening to learn about.

Speaker A: You know, I enjoyed the story arc from the Reverse Supply Chain or the part two of the book. I want to go ahead and read this quote you started with. I think it's a very, um, apropos quote. A nation is not made wealthy by the childish accumulation of shiny metals, but is enriched by the economic prosperity of its people. Adam Smith, 18th century economist but the arc you took when you started with the gentleman in Seattle, I believe, and then you went all the way through to the right to repair. Um, can you give us the brief vignettes of that journey?

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. So what I was trying to. What I was trying to get at there was um, you know, well, well again it's sort of all like, you know, the idea of solutions or not solutions, but ways in which we can do better. I don't like to say solutions because that implies that you've solved the problem and the problem is gone. But that's almost never the case when we're talking about, you know, really major scale systems and issues like this. There are always trade offs. And this is something that I really try to get across in the book. There's never no magic bullet. There's no solution. There's only ways of doing it better, of minimizing the damage. Um, and so, uh, yeah, so the guy. I, uh, think the guy that you're talking about was the scrapper, the metal picker in. He's actually here in Vancouver, where I live in Canada.

Speaker A: Steve Nelson.

Speaker B: Yeah. Steve Nelson. Yeah. Amazing guy. Uh, what Steve Nelson does, he's sort of the first world equivalent of those waste pickers I was talking about in. In Nigeria. He's a guy who has been going around on his bike for 20 years and scouring through dumpsters all over, uh, sort of the industrial area of Vancouver looking for scrap metal. That's how he makes most of his living. Looking for old bits of copper and aluminum and, you know, everything from, like, junked old vacuum cleaners to, you know, uh, uh, wires, copper wires. Um, and then he cleans it up and sells it. And turns out this is a whole industry. There are thousands and thousands of people. There's people doing this in every major city in America. I guarantee you there's people doing it in Dallas, in wherever your listeners are. Um, and again, this was something that I just really didn't know about. I mean, you see, you know, we sort of all see like, you know, homeless folks pushing carts full of cans. And that's. That's also a form of metal recycling. That's basically what they're doing. They're collecting old aluminum cans and taking them in to be recycled. But it goes much deeper than that. There's a whole almost invisible world of folks who are working to reclaim other kinds of metal. Cause metal is really in just about everything. Um, in so many of our products. Uh, your old dust buster, an old electric fan or whatever, an old, uh, you know, old tennis rackets, stuff that we just throw away. But all that stuff has valuable metals in it. And there are people working to collect it. And then what's fat. What was really fascinating to me was. Yeah. What I called the reverse supply chain, which is then, okay, you collect this metal and then what happens to it? Well, they take them to people called recyclers. You know, you can find metal, quote, unquote, metal recyclers everywhere, but almost none of them actually do the recycling. They're not the people who actually melt down that metal and purify it and then sell it back into the market. They're just nodes on the chain. Um, so like, a guy like Steve Nelson will collect some old scrap metal. He'll sell it to a recycler in here in Vancouver who's really just an aggregator who gathers up larger and larger amounts of that metal and then they sell it on to somebody else and onto somebody else. And it's a whole extended chain, um, that leads usually back to China. And it's very, it's like a mirror version of the production chain in which most of our consumer products are made, where so many of them, you know, the materials are gathered from all over the world, they're passed from middleman to middleman, they end up in China where they're turned into product and, and then brought over here to sell. And then the reverse supply chain does this kind of mirror image of the same thing where those products are then broken down, sort of turned back into the equivalent of raw materials, which is scrap metal, and then sold into this chain that goes, that can travel all over the world before eventually winding up back in, often China, sometimes in Europe, in places where that metal is finally the. Melted down and turned back into pure metal that can then be put back on the regular supply chain and turned into new products. And it was just. It's so intricate, that reverse supply chain. I really had no idea of how intricate it is and how complicated it is, how many players there are involved. I found it absolutely fascinating.

Speaker A: So not only is China the leader in processing raw materials into product, they're also the leader in the reverse supply chain. Taking away, recycling, reprocessing old material into new product. Is that correct?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's definitely the case for metals and for e waste. I mean they used to. Up until just a few years ago, China was the world's, the biggest recycler in the world for everything, for paper, cardboard, plastics, you name it. Um, but they've actually, um, they really have, have cut down on that because, because as I was saying, actually recycling can be a very polluting, it can be a very dirty business. And China basically got fed up with sort of being the world's recycling bin. So they've actually stopped taking most um, plastic and paper, um, wastes which has led to um, this, this surge of recyclable stuff going to other places all over the world, to Southeast, uh, Asia, Malaysia, Vietnam, um, but uh, they're still big in the metals business basically because metals are so incredibly important because, um, there's a lot of money to be made in metal recycling and also because of the strategic importance of these critical metals, because everybody is realizing, um, that you know, these metals are absolutely crucial for what I think is going to be one of the defining macro trends of, of the next couple of decades, which is the energy transition, you know, the switch to renewables. You cannot accomplish that switch without these critical metals. And one way to get your hands on a lot of those critical metals is to recycle the missile. To buy them is to buy scrap metal. So there's a. There's a really growing, uh, trade in this and an intensifying competition all around the world actually, for this scrap metal. So it's. It's really, uh, It's. It's a growing industry and it's something that's going to only become bigger and bigger and more and more important as we get deeper into the energy transition.

Speaker A: Now, if I recall during our conversation when we talked about the world in a grain the sand story, there was an occasion or two where you encountered or felt perhaps unsafe in your reporting trips. Um, as I was reading the book, the Nigeria trip, maybe I projected myself, but that trip sounded like you may have encountered maybe, maybe not similar situation, but maybe a situation where there was some feeling of uncomfortableness, for sure.

Speaker B: So I'll say. Luckily, um, I didn't with. I didn't. I don't think I was ever, like, nobody ever threatened me with anything. I don't think I was ever in any real danger. But there was. There were definitely some moments where I felt like it. And here's probably the most acute one. Um, I was trying to get into, um, this enormous, enormous garbage dump that's smack in the middle of Lagos. Um, where of course, they do a lot. There are people living there. Um, lots and lots of people live and work in this dump. Um, just sifting through the trash from this. I mean, Lagos is a city of, you know, probably 20 million people. And, um, so you can imagine the size of their garbage dump. And there are people who, like I say, live and work out there, just sorting through it, looking for scrap cloth, scrap mold, glass, anything that can be recycled for, you know, for a few pennies. I really wanted to see this, but, um, it's quite hard to get into because the authorities don't actually want journalists poking around in there and, you know, seeing how awful it is, because it's really pretty awful. So I went around. I was working with a. With a local journalist, and we sort of. It's all fenced off this. There's a big fence all the way around this thing. Um, and we sort of went around, walked around and around the fence until we kind of found an opening. Um, there was. There was this. Just this one, uh, guard, you know, just sort of a Guy like a watchman kind of watching it. And we sort of convinced him to. To let us just, uh, just poke through, step through and just take a quick look around. And as soon as we did that, as soon as we got inside the fence, we were just swarmed by the folks that were working there because, basically, because I'm white. And, uh, I was the only white person, you know, inside this dump, I'm sure. And it's very weird for them to have anybody from the outside come in, let alone a white guy. So all these people are coming around us, you know, like, what are you doing here? What do you want here? Who are you? Um, and we explained to them, you know, what we were doing, and they were like, oh, well, you know, you really. You need permission from the boss. There's a big boss. You need to get permission from him. So come on, we'll take you to him. And all of a sudden, I find myself sort of being pulled, like, deep inside this dump, like, just surrounded by a bunch of, you know, a few dozen waste pickers who are, you know. All that I know about these people is that they are very, very poor. They have very little money. That's why they're waste pickers. And I'm a white guy, which automatically means I'm a white guy in Nigeria, which automatically means I have money. I've got, you know, my little digital camera, and I've got money on me. And I'm just like, uh, oh, where. Where am I going? And what's gonna happen to me?

Speaker A: One too many hostage movies.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I was, you know, I was definitely concerned that about, you know, getting robbed, getting who knows what. But, um, but, you know, but that was all. Everything turned out to be fine. They took us, uh, you know, they were, uh, they took us to the big boss, and the boss basically told us we had to leave right away. I think when you. No harm done. Just, uh, didn't get the reporting that I, that I wanted to. But, um, it was a little stressful, but. But really no trouble in the end.

Speaker A: Well, I think it's interesting how secretive, because I think you wrote in the book also when you had the other encounter with the gentleman who had the recycling facility in Nigeria, that he couldn't tell you who he was selling to.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, that you find a lot whenever, Whenever you're trying. Whenever I'm trying to do these kind of supply chain stories, like, you know, you go to a specific business and you say, okay, who are your suppliers? Or who are you selling to? You Know, very few people want to. Businesses, uh, want to tell a journalist that because it's. That's their business, right? It's. They don't want. They don't want to, uh. They don't want their competitors to know who their suppliers are or their customers are. So that's one level of it is just, you know, it's business sort of trade secrets, like who am I selling to? And also a lot of the time, like that particular guy, I very. I very much suspect that a lot of the business that he does is not 100% legal. You know, that, um, they're probably because Nigeria is. There's so much corruption in Nigeria. Um, and just about everybody that I talked to there told me this pretty openly. Like, you've got to spread some bribes around. If you want an export permit, if you want an import permit, if you want your, you know, your stuff to be able to get through the. The port with no problems, you got to spread some bribes around. And people will talk about that, you know, in the abstract. But of course, nobody wants to admit to a journalist that they're. That they're doing that. Um, and sometimes, you know, it can be because the things that you're exporting aren't 100% legal or the way that. The way that you're doing it. So it's a very, um. It can be a very, uh, opaque kind of a. Kind of a. Kind of a world that people are not anxious to, um, to, uh, have journalists really take a look at. I mean, it really took us a long time to find everybody that I talked to in the book, in that chapter about Nigeria. It really took some doing to get any of them to open up to us.

Speaker A: So let's talk tactically then, as a journalist, in case people listening are interested. How do you get those connections or introductions, being here in the US and wanting to make a trip like that and being efficient with resources, et cetera.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it really. It's very, um. It takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of persistence and it takes a lot of, um, just knocking on a lot of doors and making a lot of phone calls. Um, because of course, the best way is to go there in person and spend some time and talk to people face to face. That's when things happen the fastest. But I didn't, you know, I didn't want to fly all the way to Nigeria and be staying in an expensive hotel and having to pay for a translator and a driver and all that just to be, you know, you Want to minimize that time. So by the time you get there, you want everything as lined up as it can be. So with that particular story, with that particular um, piece I went through, how did I do it? There's kind of two avenues. One was uh, there's a, there's a company based in the Netherlands that I also talk about in that, in that chapter that's, that's, that's uh, that exports broken phones, dead phones from, from Africa to Europe for recycling. Um, and the reason that they do that is because there's no um, uh. There's no uh, there's no recycling facilities in Africa that can handle old mobile phones. So they all get um, sent abroad and usually in sort of very gray market, quasi illegal ways. And this company is trying to do it above board with you know, full transparency and uh, and um, you know, full environmental, following all the environmental regulations and so on. So they work with, with waste pickers in Lagos. They have a, they work with um, um, with the, with the local waste pickers to collect up these phones that they then export to Europe. So I got in touch with them and they put me in touch with their people on the ground there who work with um, the waste pickers. And it turned out to be like several layers removed. Like um, you know, I had to get in touch with the company in Europe who was of course happy to get publicity for what they were doing. They put me in touch with a company that they work with locally. But that company doesn't actually collect the phones themselves. They work with a guy who works with a bunch of other people. So I got in touch with the guy but the guy was getting out of the business at that point. So he put me in touch with a ah, woman that he works with. Um, and so, and eventually she agreed to um, to go around with us on a couple of. Spend a couple of days with us introducing us to some of the people that she works with. So it's all very like, you know, you sort of go from one to the next to the next to the next to the next before you finally like reach the people that you're actually wanting to talk to. So that was one route and then the other route was um, just literally going around. And once I, you know, I sort of worked with the. I got in touch with this journalist, a local journalist there and hired her to help me out. And we sort of worked together to identify a few places that we knew we wanted to go to. Um, there's these huge scrap metal um, markets in Lagos where Again, you really sort of have to m. Know some, you have to know where they are first of all. And then you have to know somebody. So she had a contact at one of these places. So that sort of got us in the door and then, and then we, so we had that lined up before I left. And then once I got to Lagos, we went to this metal market. We met her contact, he showed us around. We met some more people through him. They agreed to introduce us to some more people. And it's like that, just very sort of step by step by step by step by step and you just keep at it and uh, until somebody says yes and agrees to talk to you about what they're doing or show you where they're doing it, that kind of thing.

Speaker A: So since we're on the topic of travel, can you share your travels to the Atacama Desert, South America, and what that was like and what you were looking at down there?

Speaker B: Yeah, so that was um, that was quite a bit easier in some ways. Um, it's also, you know, it's, it's far and it's remote but um, uh, but there's a lot more, there are more people there who, who want the world to know about what's going on. That, that makes a big difference. So the Atacama story in the. Atacama is. The Atacama Desert in northern Chile is the source. It's one of the, it's, it's the biggest lithium deposit in the world as far as we know. And it's one of the major, the most important sources. It's where all. A big chunk of the lithium that's in every battery, your cell phone battery, your laptop battery, your Tesla battery, um, all those are lithium ion batteries. And much of that lithium comes from uh, this desert. So the problem there is the way that they get it, they get that lithium, it, it's in underground brine reservoirs. There's these enormous reservoirs of heavily salty water that's also, that's full of all kinds of minerals, including salt and including lithium. And there are a couple of companies there that just, that suck that water up from underground and, and lay it out under the desert sun in these enormous evaporation pools that you can see from probably from outer space. Um, and just let it evaporate, just let all this water, you know, the sun does, does most of the work and it evaporates out the water and you're left with this concentrate that's full of lithium that they then sell again, uh, to China to be turned into into pure lithium that can be made into batteries. So it's a very big business. The problem is that there's a big concern that it is drying out, um, the desert. So there are, it's a desert, but there are, um, there, there is life there. There's a surprising amount of life there. There are flamingos, um, there's all kinds of rare birds that live there, including these, these rare flamingos. Um, there are hawks and um, and other kinds of, and other life forms. And also there are indigenous communities that have been there for thousands and thousands of years, um, you know, sort of scratching out a living off of, off of what little water there is in the desert and, uh, you know, raising, uh, llamas and growing crops and so on. Um, there's not many of them, but they are there and they have been there for thousands of years. And those folks are very concerned that their whole way of life is going to disappear, that basically this lithium mining is going to suck up what little water there is in the desert and, and uh, dry it out completely. So, um, so you've got these two worries. One is the straight environmental, like what harm is this doing to the desert and the, and the plants and animals that live there? And also then there's the human piece of it. What damage is this doing to the indigenous communities there? So, so I went out there to have a look and um, yeah, I mean, what made that much easier was that the indigenous folks living there are very well aware of all these problems and they really want, they're happy to have journalists come and, and, and, and, and write about it. So, um, it took a while, you know, it took some doing. Again, I, I, I worked with a local journalist, a guy based in Santiago, to sort of set it all up as much as I could in advance. And he made contact with the, with the indigenous, um, the leaders of the indigenous communities out there and with uh, some of the, you know, main environmental folks that have been working there. So we had a fair bit arranged. By the time I flew from Vancouver down to, down to Chile, we had a lot of it in hand. But again, of course, a lot of it, um, you often get the most sort of important and the most impactful stuff there on the ground. You know, you know, when it's when you like, go and you meet people face to face and you spend a couple of hours talking to them, you know, it. Part of it is, is getting their trust so that they will, then, you know, they'll introduce you to other folks, um, who can tell you more and they'll take you out to the places where you can really see where this is happening. So, like, for instance, um, you know, we went out to one of the villages, one of these indigenous villages, and talk to some of the folks about the changes that they're seeing and the worries that they have. But it was only once, I'd like, you know, sort of gotten, you know, sort of gotten the trust of this one particular guy, um, and gotten to know him a bit that he agreed to take us out into the desert and show us some of these places that are really, really, um, important, um, to his people. Like these. There's these little, uh. Uh, Vegas they call them, these, These freshwater springs out in the middle of the desert. You would. You could never find these places if you didn't have somebody showing you. But they're absolutely amazing. It's like, I mean, just desert dry, bone dry desert for miles around, and then suddenly out of nowhere, there's this beautiful little oasis, this gorgeous pool of water deep enough to hold fish and there's. There's grass and plants all around it. You can see. Swim in it. And, uh, it's. It's what his, his family and families before him for who knows how long have been going out there to swim and to, you know, use, uh, the mud there for medicinal purposes. So, you know, you really, you never know quite what's going to happen when you get there on the ground. But it, but it really is, it's important to, to do that whenever it's possible.

Speaker A: And these brine pools that you described, I think you described him, looks like a moonscape.

Speaker B: Yeah. So there's the. Well there. By now, uh, there's. There's three different things. So the desert itself, most of the Atacama Desert is, Is an absolute moonscape. I mean, it, it. It's so much like the surface of Mars that NASA actually trials, um, its, its Mars rovers there. And it looks so much like another planet. I put this in the book that the Mandalorian shoots there because it's just otherworldly. It's like just. Absolutely. Just nothing but rock and sand and not a blade of grass in sight. Most of it. Right Then every now and then, like I say, there's these totally unexpected little, um, oases. And also these, um, these pools, these brine pools where the flamingos live. Just like you would you come to these places and you really feel like you're on another planet because it just doesn't seem like there could be water in a place this dry. So all of that's what's up on the surface. It's like, you know, 95% just bone dry desert just speckled here and there with these, these strange, um, with water, with these oases basically. And then the brine pools are deep underneath the brine. Brine pools are way underneath the ground, um, is where the reservoir is. And then they suck them up, um, and lay them out in these uh, evaporation ponds that are also on the surface. And if you can see satellite pictures of it, it just looks just bizarre because like it's just you know, desert, desert, desert for miles all around and then there's like these extremely or orderly looking rectangles of blue and green and yellow. It looks like a quilt, like somebody's laid out a very precise little quilt. Or a patch of farmland right in the middle of this desert. And that's the evaporation ponds.

Speaker A: Wow. Um, now I said, I think I've mentioned either before recording or right when we started, I'm going to jump around the book, the part of the book that disturbed me the most. The chapter was the chapter called Depth Charge. And I don't know if it was the way you described it, the way you wrote about it, the gentleman in question in the chapter. But um, I'm going to let you explain what Depth charge is about and what you learned because that one just, that one really hit home.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's. You're talking about the chapter about deep sea mining.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Um, and what that is. So it turns out there are, there's enormous amounts of all. Well, many of these metals that we need, these critical metals, um, specifically uh, nickel, uh, and cobalt and magnesium. Um, at the bottom of the ocean, at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean, there's these billions and billions of rocks. Basically they're called polymetallic nodules and they're just rocks that are jam packed with, with these metals. Um, they're in a lot of other places as well. But uh, the main place folks are looking is the bottom of the Pacific Ocean in between Hawaii and Mexico. So you can imagine there are all kinds of companies that are just champing at the bid to dig these to basically strip mine the ocean floor and bring up these rocks and sell them. You know, there's potentially hundreds of, you know, billions of dollars worth of metal down there. Um, but it means literally tearing up the bottom of the ocean. So it's very, it's a very, very controversial idea that is not happening yet. Why? Because uh, at the moment international law bans it, it forbids anybody from doing actual industrial scale mining on the ocean floor because of obviously there are huge environmental risks that come with that. Right. The amount of damage that we could do to the oceans and to everything that lives in them is uh, well nobody knows because there just hasn't been enough research on it. But you know for sure mining always causes some damage. Sea mining wouldn't be any different. That said, um, there are the un, the, there's a un uh, an organization connected with the United nations that sort of is the, is the authority that gets to decide who gets to do what on the ocean floor. And they have given out um, several dozen ex. Licenses to explore. So we already have many companies, um, several companies and several national governments that have built um, robots and sent them down to the bottom of the ocean to start exploring around, checking out like how can we, like what are ways that we could dig up these mod nodules, how could we bring them back to the surface, that kind of thing. So that, so that kind of exploration is going ahead full steam. And there's one company in particular called the, the metals company that's, that is really leading the charge on this. Um, they've got exploration licenses for several different areas in the Pacific and they have filed for an application to be allowed to begin full scale industrial mining which they hope to begin as soon as next year. Um, and this has a lot of people really freaked out to put, you know, just to say the least. Um, there are hundreds and hundreds of marine scientists that have signed a petition, um, calling for a moratorium on mining. There's a number of governments that have also called for a moratorium. Uh even a lot of the companies that would, that um, that would benefit from having these metals, you know, car manufacturers and tech companies that need lots of these metals even some of them have called for, have basically come out and said let's not do this, let's not start tearing up the ocean floor. At least until we've done more research. At least until we're sure that we can do it in a way that is not going to destroy the oceans in the process.

Speaker A: I think John Oliver had a show on it.

Speaker B: Sorry.

Speaker A: I think John Oliver actually did a show on deep sea mining.

Speaker B: He did, he did actually and in fact he, uh, one of the uh, one of the magazine articles uh, that he uh, talked about in that show was one I did for Wired magazine, um, which is uh, kind of the basis of that whole chapter. Yeah, it's a big issue. There's been a lot written about it, a lot said about it, um, and it's very contentious. So the organization is called the International Seabed Authority and they are, they meet every few months and they're going to be meeting again in just a couple, few months to basically to decide thumbs up or thumbs down on deep sea mining. So people are watching that very closely. There's a lot of behind the scenes lobbying going on. Um, and it's a really big concern, you know, because the oceans, if we mess up the oceans as badly as we've messed up the atmosphere, we're sunk, you know, because the oceans are not something separate from us as human beings. We get an enormous amount of our food from the oceans. Obviously fish, right. Um, and the fish that eat other fish. And also the oceans are an enormous carbon sink right there. The oceans absorb huge amounts of the carbon that goes up into the atmosphere. Part of why climate change, climate change would beat vastly worse if we didn't have the oceans sucking up so much of the carbon. So if we screw that up, if we screw up, you know, the whole, uh, food chain that we depend on with fish and all the other animals that depend on those fish and the carbon sequestration, uh, uh, uh, powers that the oceans have, man, we could really be in trouble. So it's a very, very major concern if sea mining is allowed to go to. Go ahead. It could be a really, really major problem for everybody.

Speaker A: Well, I want people to read the book. So I'm going to ask you a couple of personal questions now so that people can actually learn for themselves what you've written. You've written all these stories. You know, you did world in the grain. Now you've done power metals, you've traveled around, you've seen how things are being made at their core. How does this affect you on your daily basis in your personal life, if at all?

Speaker B: Well, you know, it's funny, I would say that I'm. It sounds, it sounds kind of crazy, contradictory, but I'm both, more, more, uh, worried and more optimistic at the same time. More worried because, you know, the more, you know, the more you know about how much there is to be concerned about because really and truly, like, you know, the path that we're on is totally unsustainable. And I, you know, I see that everywhere and everything that I look at now, like I've spent so much time kind of thinking about, you know, the secret origins of things, where do we get the materials to build all these things. And I look around, I mean, I'm just sitting at My desk, looking around at all these plastic, you know, this plastic water bottle I'm drinking out of and the plastic, uh, case on my, uh, on my phone and the plastic around my lamp and the plastic, plastic, plastic. Plastic is such a huge problem. Oh my God. How are we ever going to solve the plastic problem? And my desk is made out of wood. And where I live in British Columbia, you know, we've cut down almost all the old growth trees. Oh my God. What, how are we ever going to, you know, get out of this cycle of having to destroy trees to live our lives? And at the same time, at the same time that I've, you know, I've spent probably just as much time talking to folks who are working on solutions. You know, there's so much, there's so much energy, uh, going into finding better ways to do things. You know, like, um, so many people are aware of these issues and aware and looking for ways to solve them, especially younger folks. You know, like, my daughter's 18. She is older, all about, um, she knows, you know, she, she's about to go to school, study marine biology. She's really concerned. She knows. She's known about the climate change issue since she was a little kid. Um, and, uh, you know, and she wants to help. And I feel like there's lots and lots of that kind of energy out there and also lots of really practical stuff that's being done. You know, new technologies that are coming out, new, new ways of doing things. Um, lots and lots of energy going into figuring out how we can build our cities in ways that don't depend so heavily on cars and other like, really resource intensive, uh, machines like that. So, uh, I don't know, I sort of feel like both sides are kind of getting stronger, you know, in this battle for, to keep living sustainably on this planet. So, you know, some days I get really down. Some days I'm really psyched. Most of the time I'm kind of like, yeah, everything's terrible, but everything, you know, but there's so much, uh, that's possible. So, uh, I don't know if that's a coherent answer at all.

Speaker A: But I understand. We're human, right? Yeah. And hopefully your daughter will take a stand against, um, depth charge.

Speaker B: I, you know, I have to be hopeful, I guess. I have, I have two kids and, and uh, you know, I want them to have a world that's, that's worth living in. So, uh, you know, and ultimately that's why I do what I do because it's just too if you don't do anything, if you, if you, all you do is, is, is learn about and read about all these terrible problems, man, you're just, it's just paralyzing. So I, I, you know that's why I do this work is I'm really, I want to feel like I'm helping to work towards a better way by, by and my personal contribution is just raising awareness and, and, and spreading information. Hopefully that helps it.

Speaker A: I think it really does. You know there's so many more things we could have talked about. Epr, phyto mining, so much more. Um, but I really want people to read it and walk away with as you said, awareness of what's going on and how things are made. I can't let you go without asking what's next on the horizon. You've written about sand, you've written about power metals. What are you thinking about next if anything?

Speaker B: I think, I'm not sure but I think the next book is going to be about scavengers and meaning. I really got inspired by those, those uh, those waste pickers that um, that I spent time with in Nigeria and also the guy Steve Nelson here in bc. These people who go around who basically like take the rest of us have thrown out have decided is worthless and they find value in it, they turn it back into something valuable and it's, I just find it. There's so many people doing this in so many different ways all over the world. You know from waste pickers to uh, you know, urban scavengers, uh, like Steve Nelson to uh, to you know, industrial scale recyclers. Just this idea of turning trash back into treasure. Right? That's a cliche. One man's trash is another man's treasure. But it's really true. There's so much we throw away. You know modern society is so incredibly wasteful and we throw out so much stuff that's valuable but it turns out there's a lot of people who are at the other end of that who are going through our garbage and one way or another or just stuff that we get rid of and um, finding value in it. And I met so many of these people and they're so resourceful. The ways that they come up with to um, you know, to repurpose or to resell the stuff that other people throw out. They're so resourceful, they're so creative, um, and ingenious in so many ways. And also in so many ways they're so totally overlooked. They're completely invisible to most of us. And at the same time they're performing a really valuable service. They're keeping trash out of landfills. They're recycling, uh, uh, all kinds of valuable materials. But you know, most people, we never even think about them. We don't even know that they're there most of the time. And a lot of the time, of course, they're, you know, they're, they're working in the most appalling conditions and they're some of the poorest people on earth. And um, really should be getting a better shake, really should be appreciated a lot more than they are, and should be getting paid more for what they're doing. So I don't exactly know what the focus is, but I just found that whole. There's, like I said, there's a whole world of folks doing this kind of work in all kinds of different ways, in all kinds of different places. And I feel like it's, it's a very important story, um, and uh, and a really fascinating one too. So, um, that's what I'm thinking about a lot. So if any of your listeners have any. Have any thoughts about that, I would, I would love to hear from them. I'm really like in the, in the, in the information gathering and story gathering phase of that, so I'm wide open for. To learn more.

Speaker A: Well, I've heard it said there's no waste in nature, and it sounds like they're doing nature's work.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, you know, I'm reading a lot about garbage right now. There's a lot of really good books out there about garbage, believe it or not.

Speaker A: Well, we should share a reading list one day. I'm sure we'd be no doubt amazed.

Speaker B: Sure, I'd love to. I think that's it. You know, like in, in nature, nothing gets wasted. Everything gets recycled one way or another. Everything is basically eating. Eaten by something else and turned into food for other things. It's all a huge cycle. And that's, you know, that's the model that, that uh, that's the whole idea of the circular economy. Right. Is this idea that we need to have, uh, a. An economy that works more like that, where everything, nothing gets thrown out, but everything is repurposed and reused again and again. It's much, much harder to do it with an industrial society like ours. But that's the goal, or it should be the goal, I think.

Speaker A: Well, I took a note from one of your references, Junkyard Planet. It's on my reading list.

Speaker B: M. That's a great book. Yeah, really recommend it.

Speaker A: Well, Vince, before I go, um, I'm also a subscriber to your newsletter. I love your newsletter, uh, Power Metals, I believe, on substack. Is that correct?

Speaker B: That's right, yeah.

Speaker A: And I appreciate all the work you do. Um, you know, if you do write a book on scavengers, I'd love to have you back on the show. But until then, it's been a pleasure catching up with you, and I look forward to catching up with you again soon.

Speaker B: Well, likewise, Raj. I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate the work that you're doing, too. You know, I mean, we're kind of in the same racket, right? Just to get the word out on issues that we think are important.

Speaker A: And if anyone's listening, we ranked number two in Japan last week, so we have global listeners. Feel free to, you know, reach out to me or to Vince. And, um, if you have any tips on scavengers, let him know.

Speaker B: All right, thanks, French.

Speaker A: Take care. Thank you for listening. If you like our show, please give us a rating and review on itunes. And you can show your support by sharing our show with a friend. Or reach out to us on social media, where you'll find us under our Nexus PMG handle. If there's a subject or topic you'd like to hear about, send me an email btuxuspmg.com or contact me via our website, nexuspmg. Com. And while you're there, you can sign up for our monthly newsletter where we share what we're reading and thinking about in the clean tech, green tech sectors. Bigger than us is a Nexus PMG production.