Storytelling in Sales: Chip Brewer on Buyer Trust

Foreign. Welcome to the Enabling Buying Podcast. I'm your host, Paul Kirch and I'm grateful you're here. Now Enabling Buying is brought to you by klaviyo@klaviyo.com your all in one sales enablement platform. I love Kilavi. I'm not just the host of this show, but I'm an active user of the product and also a member of their board. Now, we started this show to help anyone selling find a better way to drive impact in this busy marketplace where we're all facing more competition and noise than ever before. I want to thank you for being here. It's time to Enable Buying in a world of selling. Today, I'm excited to bring you Chip Brewer. Now, chip spent over 25 years in a variety of senior roles. He was at international consulting and marketing research firm, supporting strategy, marketing, product management, sales, M and A tech scouting, R and D, procurement and supply chain executives across a wide range of organizations, including Fortune 1000 startups and nonprofits and government organizations. Now in parallel, Chip also pursued a more creative path. From 1998 to 2003, Chip performed as a professional improv comedy actor in Amsterdam, the Netherlands Cambridge, Massachusetts, Portland, Maine. His career totally took a shift. He completed his improvisational and storytelling training at the Boom Chicago Improv Training center in Amsterdam where Seth Meyers was one of the instructors. Since 2003, he's used the principles of improv to teach teamwork, storytelling and Stagecraft to Fortune 1000 companies, nonprofits at risk use educators and everyday people. Join me in welcoming Chip Brewer to the Enabling Buying Podcast. Chip Brewer, great to see you. Thanks for being here on Enabling Buying Podcast. So glad you could make it. Thanks so much, Paul. It's my pleasure to be here and I really appreciate you inviting me on. Yeah, we had a great conversation the other day. We talked a little bit. We both share a little bit of common background, we're both fans of storytelling, but also we both have some improv experience. So we'll talk about a few different things today. I think it's really fascinating. We live in this world now where there's so much noise in the marketplace, so many competing messages, a lot of artificial, really non engaging messages now that AI is in the mix. And I think you and I both come from this mindset of we need to tap into those things that really connect with people. And one area that I think always stands out. There's two areas I think that from a primal trigger standpoint, asking good questions, questions capture attention. They allow you to uncover needs and respond in a way that you can build trust. But the other one is storytelling. Let's talk a little bit about storytelling. And you've actually built a brand around this. Why is it so important in this day and age? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think actually the two asking questions and storytelling share a common element which we can talk about in a second. So remind me to come back to that. So. So storytelling is, I think, one of humanity's great superpowers, because if you think about it from an evolutionary standpoint, stories allow us to transmit important information across time and space. So my grandmother can know, you know, back in the day. Right. My grandmother would know which berries are safe to eat, which are not, which, you know, cats you can pet and which ones will eat you. Right. Like, you know, these are a little bit, you know, excessive examples. But the concep is that your human brains are designed genetically to receive and tell stories. So, for example, science has shown that when you hear a story, your brain actually produces chemicals in a different way than it does if you're given a list or a series of bullet points or a PowerPoint deck. And in particular, when your brain hears a story, it produces oxytocin, which helps with empathy, and it produces dopamine, which helps with engagement, and it produces cortisol, which helps with memory formation. So if I tell you a story, the recipient of that story is more engaged, empathetic, and likely to remember what they're told. So we're actually genetically designed to tell and hear stories. And if I just give you all that information in a spreadsheet, it's going to skip off your brain like a stone on a pond. So that's why I think stories are important, because it's the most effective way to plant an idea in someone else's head, if that makes sense. It does. I always think back to an uncle of mine who, he passed away a few years ago, but he was an amazing storyteller. And I tell you what, he captured attention from the beginning to the end, and people wanted to get to know him. He was such an engaging person. Now, he had other attributes, like he never forgot people's names, and he was just amazing at always referring to people by their name. But where he really drew people in was his ability to tell stories, capture attention, and, you know, you could sit there and listen to this guy forever, not just because he had a great voice, but really because he knew how to capture attention. And so you're talking about all the dopamine and all these other things. There's no question when you're in front of somebody that engages you, there's something special about it. It's not just about, hey, I'm entertained. You're actually drawn in in some really creative ways. You are. I mean, some of the science suggests that one of the reasons we're so drawn in is because stories give us a way, give our brains a way to put ourselves in other situations that would potentially be dangerous or impossible to be in. So it allows us to basically simulate. Right. So if you're telling me a story about your uncle, for example, my brain automatically imagines what your uncle is like, what it would be like to sit in front of him and listen to a story. And so you start to, your brain starts to create these scenarios. And, and so, so I'm, I'm automatically drawn into your story because I see myself as part of it, or I see myself in your shoes being part of it. Do you know what I mean? I do, 100%. And you know, and you think about with all the AI communication that's taking place, a lot of people are now writing their emails through AI. They're sending out client messages, they're posting on the Internet using AI. That doesn't mean that everyone's using only AI content. I mean, there's still a lot of human written content, or somebody might use AI for ideation, but at the end of the day, things are becoming more and more impersonal. So in this era, why is storytelling taking such precedent in your mind? And why is it more important than probably ever? Yeah, so actually just had a guest blog post on a company called Meerkat AI's website about this, the importance of storytelling in an AI enabled world. So here's what, for me, the crux of it is this. The way AI is designed today, it fundamentally is a probability engine, right? Given word X, what is the most likely next word? Why? And it does this by looking at huge data sets, enormous data sets, and it's just a prediction engine. So what's going to come next? So what that means is it's driving towards the average, but storytelling and I would say creativity more broadly, whether it be art, painting, song, sculpture, writing. Creativity, I think lives at the boundaries, at unexpected connections. It lives at the edge of what people have thought of before. So to a certain extent, creativity or writing or stories are, are orthogonal to how AI works. AI says, what's the average? You know, what's the most likely thing I should say next? Whereas creativity says, what's the Least likely thing I should say next, to a certain extent. And so they're actually very, very much opposed to each other. And given how much backlash there has already been, like, you can tell when you read something that's AI generated, it doesn't have a soul. There's no there there. It just sounds like everything else you've heard before. Do you know what I mean? I do. And, you know, salespeople often get so fixated on the products they're selling. And not necessarily it's not their fault. You know, that's the directive from Internal. It's like, oh, we need to make sure we get all these points across. We need to talk about all these things we've created. We love this product, and our clients are going to love it too. And they're so fixated on pushing something that they forget that part of their job is to draw someone in. So let's talk a little bit from the sales perspective. What's changed? And I would argue that people are becoming very hypersensitive to messaging. What's changed today that salespeople need to be leveraging when it comes to storytelling to become more effective at capturing attention. Yeah. So. So I kind of fundamentally believe that. So none of us lives in a vacuum. Right. We all are working with either friends or strangers every day. And. And so I have a background in improv, as you mentioned before. I used to perform professionally in Europe and in the US And. And I don't perform anymore. But I've been, you know, using improv to teach teamwork, storytelling, and stagecraft to salespeople and, you know, all kinds of folks. And one of the key elements of storytelling as a salesperson is, you know, it's not just you. There's the audience. Right. Which is your prospect or your client across the table from you, and you need to listen. Which is the comment I was going to make earlier as well. Right. Like, listening is actually the key component to drawing people in and to telling effective stories. And. And it's also a huge piece of being successful at improv. So. And listening isn't just, okay, I heard what you said, but now I'm going to quickly say what I want to say. Right. It's active listening. So it's like, okay, Paul told me X. How does that. How should I respond to what Paul said? Rather than, how do I get to my next point? And so it becomes a much more honest conversation with the prospect or the. Or the client, where you're demonstrating that you've heard what they've said. You then take what they've said and use it to make your point. Or you put your point to the side and you follow the thread that they've started to pull because it shows them that you're engaged with them, you're listening, and that will in turn make them more likely to listen and engage with you. So listening carefully allows you to tell better stories to and with the folks that you're dealing with. Yeah. You know, you and I talked about this last time, but I was on stage doing improv with this. This group, and. And it was our. It was during our second series of trainings, and so we were doing our showcase, and there was a woman on stage that we had this great scene going. It was about superheroes, and it was really fun. It was super engaging. And all of a sudden, she comes out and she kind of shoots the whole idea down and says, oh, you guys take your medicine and get back to your rooms. And instantly she killed the scene. Yep. Do you see situations where salespeople and professionals that are out there providing services are kind of killing their own scenes by maybe losing track of. Of this idea of listening, engaging, and then playing upon what the client said instead of just going with their own message? Absolutely. So an improv that's called, as you know, it's called blocking. Right. So blocking someone's idea just kills a scene. Just kills it dead on arrival. And so the listening is key. Demonstrating he listened to them is also key. And then, people, there's two other things to think about here. One is the thing we learned in improv is treat the audience well. The audience is part of the show. So when you're in front of a prospect or a client, they're part of the conversation. Like, it's important for them to be treated well. And I've seen plenty of salespeople, and I'm sure I've done it myself as well, where I'm so wrapped up around my own axle on what I'm trying to accomplish that I end up not listening to and therefore not respecting the audience that's in front of me. And that. That obviously turns them on, even if I haven't just said no directly to them. There are lots of ways to block people, as you know. So you could say to me in a conversation, well, I'm really concerned about the terms of, you know, this agreement, and. And I could say yes, that's. That's important for us to discuss, and let's talk about what I want to talk about. So I've said yes, and which is a. Which is an improv staple. But what I've actually said is, I don't want to talk about your idea. I want to talk about my thing now. And that really turns people off. So blocking them, treating the audience poorly, not listening, are great ways to sabotage the conversation, if that's your goal. Yeah, 100%. And if you think about authenticity versus maybe the idea of manipulative storytelling or. Or taking something that's not genuine, like you heard someone else tell a story and now you're telling it, trying to make it your own, how important is it to bring authenticity into storytelling to make it your own? Yeah, I think it's the crucial piece of storytelling to make it resonate, especially in a business setting. Right. So people can sniff out BS much better than you think they can. And so I'm a big proponent of Simon Sinek's why Story. Right. So. So Simon Sinek, for those who don't know, is a business strategist who famously said, people don't buy from you because of what you do. They buy from you because of why you do it. And so your why story is, you know, why did I start, you know, growth story? Why do you do what you do? And that story, if I. If I were to say, oh, I just did it because I felt like it wouldn't really have any resonance. Right. But if I explain, like, Listen, I spent 25 years in consulting and market research. I've spent 25 years writing books and screenplays and performing and writing stories. And growth story gives me a chance to bring that together so I can close the gap between business and stories. I mean, that's my why story. And it's authentic because. And it rings true. Because it is. But if I told you something else, you would. You would sniff that out. And especially in the age of AI Going back to your earlier comment, people have. Their radar is. Is especially sensitive these days, even more so than it used to be, because of the proliferation of the AI crap that's out there that no one wants to hear or read. Yeah, I think that's interesting because a lot of times when we're out there in a sales position, we're talking about the company story, and I think everyone needs their own story. But what happens when somebody has a story and they don't believe their own story? Do you think that comes across as. Does it paint the wrong picture? I guess I think it does. Right. It'll strike the wrong note in the chord in what you're saying to folks if you don't I mean, we've all either been in positions where we've worked for firms, if we're salespeople like I used to be, where we're in the position of trying to sell something we may not fully believe in and it shows, right? You just don't have that enthusiasm, you don't have that honesty, you don't have that edge to it. You're not passionate or fully invested. Because those things, that emotion only comes from when you're truly authentically interested in something. And it's exceptionally difficult to gin that up. You know, there are people that can do it, right? I mean, that's why we have actors and actresses, right? So it can be done, but on a day to day, grind it out kind of basis, which is what sales is all about. You need to be, you need to figure out how your personal why story aligns is authentically still true to you, but also aligns with the organization that you're representing so that you can find that common ground. And, and, and then people will be likely more likely to engage with you because of that now. So one of the things that you mentioned at the beginning is you wanted me to come back to the point about asking good questions. And as I think about storytelling, I run into people all the time. So I'm just not a good storyteller. It's not something I'm good at. But is it not true that if you ask good questions, get the other person talking, get them engaged, now you can tie your story in, in a way that's genuine, that's responsive, it's not necessarily like forcing something. So talk a little bit about how questions tie into this whole process. Yeah, it's a great point and thank you for bringing it back. Right, so asking smart open ended questions is. Gives you the opportunity for. Gives creates the opportunity for a number of things to happen. Number one, the prospects will know that you're listening, they'll know that you're engaged. And this is another key storytelling point that actually I don't hear a lot of people talk about, which is in a story. And actually the guys that created south park and I got this from them actually, so they do master classes in storytelling. And one of the things that they harp on all the time that I also believe in is if you're telling a story and it's A, then B happens, then C happens, then D happens, that's not a story, that's a series of unrelated events. If you say A happens and because of that B happens, and because of that C happens. But then D happened and that changes the course of the story. That's, that's more like a conversation with a prospect. Right. So that's about causality. So if I'm asking smart questions, then, you know, I might know what my, my three to five things I want to get out of this conversation are, right? And I start asking questions, then the response that I'm given to my first question, I need to make my second question build off of that and not go back to my predefined list of questions. So asking questions is a little bit of an art, a little bit of a science. Right? The science is knowing what I need to know. The art is how do I naturally get there without forcing the conversation one way or another. Does that make sense? It does 100%. So you know, when you think about, that's definitely an area where you could be making some massive mistakes. But what are some areas that brands also make mistakes when creating the brand story? So I think when brands. So I think at the core of every story is a relationship. So whether that relationship is between a man and a woman, a man and a man, a rock and the river, a dog and its owner, the sea in the sky, like I don't care what the two entities are, but if there isn't a relationship, then you're not telling a story. So the first mistake I think most brands make is they don't have a relationship in mind when they're telling their own story. They're simply talking about bells and whistles and how wonderful they are and, and you know, we're this bright shining light on a hill and you should all just come live here and spend money with us. That doesn't include the audience, right. That doesn't include the other person in the story. When we're selling something, what we're trying to do is figure out, first of all, it's a two way conversation, right? We may not be right for you or you may not be right for us as a customer. So I need to figure that out as a salesperson. Secondly, we're trying to figure out, the prospect is trying to sort out, do I want this company to be in my personal story? Right. Do I want to hire this company to help me solve problem X and therefore become part of my story? And I think most sales, no, very few salespeople think about their role in that way. Can we be a good part or a value added part into their story? Right. Which is a different way to come to the conversation. If you're coming at it like I need to make my quota. Let's hurry up and wrap this up so I can get the next call. You know, that's not going to work so well. But if we get into a conversation, and I'm truly trying to understand Paul, like, why. Why would you work with me? What are the things that would make it a successful engagement? How do you define success? Right. That maybe that's radically different than how we define success. And we're not a good match, and that's a fine outcome as well as, you know, you know, you need to close deals. But discounting or putting to the side the deals that aren't going to happen as soon as possible is a very important, you know, task in your. In your day, for sure. So a few years ago, I had a potential client. Well, it wasn't a potential client. They were a client, but they weren't bringing us a lot of money. But they had these large, large media testing projects, and I knew if I could get a piece of one of those, that could be millions of dollars. And I was talking to my manager at the time, this, before I started my company, and I said, here's the deal. They're not revealing any information, but I'm going to go in and meet with them. And I know that if I can ask certain questions, I can start to uncover what type of work's being done, where it's being done, and how we can get a piece of that. And he goes, I think it's a great idea because I'm going to be out on the West Coast. He goes, why don't I join you? I was living in California at the time, and, yeah, so I scheduled this meeting and everything worked out perfectly. I'm in the meeting and I had, like, the opportunity opened up where I asked a question and. And at the end of the meeting, I'm like, just kind of patting myself on the back. I get out in the parking lot and I'm kind of just excited. And I'm talking to my manager and I said, man, what a great meeting is. Yeah, that was good meeting. He is. And he goes, well, let me ask you what happened when you asked her that question you were planning? I said, yeah, you know, I mean, it worked out perfectly. Except she didn't answer it. He goes, oh, no, she answered it. You were just so busy worried about the next thing you were going to say. You talked right over the top of her and cut her off. I never heard the answer. CRMs, slide decks, inboxes, sales teams don't need more Scattered tools. They need alignment. Calavia brings your sales playbook, AI coaching, training and goals together in one platform. For consultative B2B teams looking to close more deals with less confusion and greater consistency. Kilavia enabling buying in a world of selling. Visit klaviyo.com so improv, I will tell you, is a place where it teaches a lot of things about listening, because you have to be able to listen. So what are some things that improv has taught you that maybe listeners out there that are in a sales role or business development role can apply? Because I think there's so many great lessons that come from listening. Yeah, we used to. I don't know if you've ever done this exercise, but we used to do an exercise to specifically combat that problem, which is we do a scene with three or four actors, but there's a ping pong ball and you can only speak if you have the ping pong ball, right? So when you have the ball, you suddenly are very like, anxious about getting rid of it because you know you're preventing everyone else from speaking and contributing. And when you don't have the ball, you're just like, I think I'm desperate to have a chance to speak, but it kind of forces you to slow down, listen carefully, and then when you get your turn, you can react and allow what was said before to impact what you're going to say next. This causality is a big piece of it. And then two other quick things that I think are super important. Number one is something I learned from one of my first directors who taught us, your only job on stage is to make everyone else look good. Your only job on stage is to make everyone else look good. What that means is if five of us go on stage together and each of us is only thinking about ourselves and not the others, then I have one person on stage worried about me. But if those five of us go on stage and I'm worried about the other four and they're all worried about each other and me, I now have four people looking out for me, right? I'd rather. I mean, I'm an English major, but I'd much rather have four people. Like, the math is better with four people looking out for me than one, right? So. And the prospect is part of that story. They're on stage with you too, right? So you need to work with them, not against them. And then secondly, I'm sure you've done kind of word at a time story exercises where, oh yeah, and everybody can add one word and together you tell A story. The lesson of that, for me, the key lesson out of that exercise is no one is in charge, but everyone is responsible. Right. It's like, I'm not in charge of my prospect, they're not in charge of me. But we're both responsible for figuring out whether or not there's a There. There for us to invest time and money in continuing the conversation. Right. No one's in charge. Imagine we shift from the idea of getting our message across and focus on what the client really needs, what their wants are, what their pain points are, and focus less on what we. We're going to say next and really genuinely respond to what they're going through. That. That just seems to be the. The secret sauce right there. Yeah, it's. It's all about. Cause it's listening. Active listening. And active listening, by the way, is not just with your ears. You have to watch with your eyes as well. Because the body language in the room, the way people are sitting, you know, if you're on zoom, even you can do some of it, right? You can. Are people looking at their phones? Like, are they engaged? Right. The body. You have to listen very carefully with your eyes and your ears. I think so, yeah. I mean, it's a. That's a. That's a. That plus causality, Right. I need to be changed by what happened before. Right? So we used to have a saying that was, don't go on stage and have a whole scene talking about killing a puppy, because talking about that is not interesting. So start the scene right after someone has, you know, killed a puppy, which is obviously a facetiously horrible thing to do. But the idea. The point is don't discuss what you're gonna do. Talk about what happens if that happens. So, for example, with a prospect, you know, and let's say I'm selling, you know, B2B SaaS software for CRM, right. Then it's not about explaining all the bells and whistles. It's about like. Well, let's think about what your life, Mr. Mrs. Prospect, what your life would be like if we were working together. Right. How would that help you? What would you. What problems would be solved, what opportunities would be uncovered, and include that causality in the conversation. Right. So that together you're getting to a place of either go or no go, or we need to learn more. Yeah. As we close this out, I really want to thank you for taking out time to do this. I know you're busy, but this is such a great conversation. I know. We could talk about a Lot of things. I mean, you're an author. You've written, you know, a fiction book that I. I think you're having a lot of fun with. But what would you say as a writer that you've learned that's helped you become a better storyteller? Writing and editing, I used to think were the same thing. I thought editing was a subset of writing, but actually they're two very different activities. My wife, a bunch of years ago, when I was working on my first novel, got me a keychain that said, write drunk, edit sober. Which I think is kind of funny because actually writing is when the act of creation is like when you're brainstorming the session, right? You want actually as much content out on the table, as many ideas as possible, right? Because you don't actually know which. Which things you're going to need later until they're kind of all out in front of you, like all the ingredients that you could possibly use to make a pizza, for example. But editing is then saying, okay, like, I don't need the pineapple on this pizza. Like, it's there, but for this particular meal I'm making, I don't need that. And so editing is a very different activity where writing is like creating a bunch of stuff and editing is like taking a block of marble and carving it down to leave behind the statue that you wanted to create in the first place. If that. I mixed metaphors there, but if that makes sense. No, it totally makes sense. And I think this is, you know, it's great. Like I said, I could talk to you for hours. And as we close this last question, I'm just curious if there's one area that you could change how things are being done in business with buyers today. What would you do? What change would you make? I would love for more buyers to be more willing to have FaceTime with salespeople. Especially since COVID it's become increasingly difficult to get face to face with folks. And I think that it's exceptionally difficult to build relationships remotely over email, voicemail. And you need to have a conversation like this, Right. It's very hard to fully serve those you want to serve if you can't actually get to be in the room with them. Chip Brewer, I want to thank you so much for being on enabling buying podcast. Like I said, this is a conversation we could continue, but I want to be respectful of your time and just thank you for being here today. As we close, how would you like people to connect with you? Sure. Thanks so much and Paul, thanks This has been great, honestly. We could do this all day, be perfectly happy. It's been really fun and it's been great getting to know you a little bit over the last few weeks. So thank you very much for having me on. Absolutely. If people want to connect with me, my website is growthstoryllc.com or if you like thriller novels, go to Amazon and search for Questions of Iron and Blood, which is my first book in a trilogy, and it's a thriller that takes place the year after the Boston Marathon bombing. And I'll let you look it up on Amazon to see where it goes from there. Amazing. Chipper, thanks again for being on Enabling Buying podcast. Have a great day. Thanks so much, Paul. Cheers.