93: The Devil Emails at Midnight: Unmasking Bad Bosses & Broken Systems with Mita Mallick

Speaker A: I detailed the story buried in the memory of a neighbor. I mostly lived in a white community and she, we were in the first grade and she got a bike and it was a really cool like 10 speed bike. And so everyone was riding around the cul de sac and I went to take a turn and she said, oh, my parents said, I'm uh, allergic to the color of your skin. You can't get on my bike. And I was in the first grade and I was like, I was uncomfortable. It was that gut punch you're talking about.

Speaker B: All right, welcome back. Embracing only family, we have an absolutely amazing return guest again. Ms. Meh Malik is with us again today and as a little reminder, we'll go through her fantastic bio once again if you missed the first episode, but if you did, go back and check it out. So Nita Malik is a Wall Street Journal and US Today best selling author. She's on a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces. And oh man, is there so much product for her to work with in these days. She's a corporate change maker with a track record of transforming businesses and has had an extensive career as a marketing and human resources executive. Mita has brought her talent and expertise to companies like Unilever, Pfizer, Avon Johnson and John Sparta and more. She's a highly sought after speaker and business coach to startup founders, executives and public company CEOs. Her highly anticipated second book, the Devil Emails at Midnight, what Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, comes out on September 30th and I can't wait to pick up a copy. So, Mita, thank you so much for joining us again.

Speaker A: Thank you both for having me back. I'm so excited to be in conversation with you.

Speaker C: Gosh, we are pumped because we were just having this conversation, Mira, uh, just before you came on and we were like just the name. The devil's email at midnight created a feeling in both our bodies. Like literally a feeling in one of our bodies. I know you have a lot of personal stories, but I feel like your book is going to create a visceral physical reaction in people. It is. You're going to remember the times. I mean, how many devils did you have in your career?

Speaker A: I profile 13. I'm one of them. I profile 12 plus me. And I changed all the details and the timing because I hope these people are good leaders now that they were bosses for me. But yeah, I mean, listen, I only had room for 13. There's many more bad boss behaviors, but we get into 13 of them. Um, oh my God.

Speaker C: So that's 30 different leaders in your 13 chapters.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh.

Speaker A: That's 13 different stories that draw you in. Um, with a discussion of why we behave the way we do in the workplace.

Speaker C: Yes. Okay, so I want to actually rewind all the way back. So what's the story from your childhood until now that you have never linked to your leadership philosophy? But looking back, was probably an early email at midnight moment.

Speaker A: Oh, early. Something from my childhood.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: When we are younger and you're just like the same visceral physical reaction as these emails at midnight stirred for you.

Speaker A: I talk about this in Reimagined Inclusion, which is my first book. I think my first experiences with racism and not feeling like I belonged in my community were the first moments where I was like, oh, like this happens. I detailed the story, very vivid memory of a neighbor. I mostly lived in a white community. And she, we were in the first grade and she got a bike and it was a really cool, like 10 speed bike. And so everyone was riding around the cul de sac and I went to take a turn and she said, oh, my parents said, uh, I'm allergic to the color of your skin. You can't get on my bike. And I was in the first grade and I was like, I was uncomfortable. It was that, uh, gut punch you're talking about the double embolism the first time. And I was like, well, and then I felt this shame, like I had done something to hurt her and apologizing and feeling embarrassed. I didn't think that those childhood experiences from the classroom and playgrounds in the neighborhood would be into corporate America.

Speaker B: I have to ask another question, and it's an adjacent question here. But often as executives like the three of us have sat in these executive seats and we perhaps have watched our peers engage in some of this really bad behavior. Whether it's bias that that's unconscious or maybe not so unconscious. Right. Or some of any of the 13 other myths that you talked about in your first book, Mina. Uh, when you think about when you're sitting in that room now and you're watching this happen, what advice would you give to leaders that are peers? How would you advise them

Speaker A: intervene when you can in those moments that matter? Uh, and you have to do what makes sense for you. Context matters, how you feel about feeling safe to do it, whether it's in a public private setting. But if you see people behaving this way to sit down and say, nita, I've observed X, Y and Z, I Just want to check in. How are you doing? Uh, what's going on? Because there's usually something else that's behind why these behaviors are happening. And I talk about, why do we have the capability to be a bad boss? Like, when does that happen? Usually there are three moments. It's, something's happening in the marketplace. I'm sitting in the US Right now. A lot's happening in the marketplace, causing pressure on companies, right? So that can affect me becoming a bad boss at work. The second thing that can affect me becoming a bad boss and exhibiting those behaviors is something's happening with my own boss, who trickles down, as we say in our household, right? It trickles down. So there's pressure. And then the third is there's something happening with me personally. There's something happening likely at home that I'm struggling with, and I'm coming into work and manifesting these behaviors. And so I think checking in on each other, right? If someone was at. What is going on? I just heard you drop a bunch of F bombs. Be that video recorder, be the mirror. And I just want to check in. Are you okay? And then suddenly it's like the balloon pops, and it's, wow, like you're. There's a mirror, and I'm behaving really badly. Why?

Speaker C: I think it was chapter eight. You mentioned something about how you're asked to coach a beloved but incompetent boss. Now you have a beloved boss, but an incompetent one. Give us some language as listeners, right? What's that first sentence? What would you say? We're like, man, I really this boss, but, gosh, they're incompetent.

Speaker A: Yeah. The boss who is incredibly kind and completely incompetent. Do women have the same privilege to be likable but incompetent? Like, how long would we tolerate that? Why do we put people in roles when we do? Some people have to have so many points on the board, and they still don't get the role. And then other people, it's like, well, I like Olivia. We played lacrosse at Stanford together, and we summer in the same town in Massachusetts. I know her, and I know she's really good. And I know there's a big skill gap, but it's going to be okay. And then we convince ourselves, and then Olivia's in this role, and she actually was never set up for success, Right? So there's the empathy piece of me that says, well, this leader that was put in this role was never set up for success in the first place. And now we're carrying the burden. And now there's just a fallout from that situation.

Speaker B: It's interesting that you say that, because I think myself being an HR executive, you having covered both HR and marketing, you get into these discussions about ready now talent, and you. Oh, my God, you hear this rhetoric all the time. I know so and so can do it, even though they haven't proven that they can do it yet. And it's, uh. Let's just be honest. It's always a man. It's always the men that's. I'm just gonna give them grace. They'll figure it out. But the reality is, I think you said something really important there. And for all my HR buddies in the crowd, I really want you to take what Mita is saying to heart. We are actually hurting the talent.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: By moving them forward too soon. Right. They're going to have an awful experience. No one wants to feel like they're failing at work. And we think we're being nice. Whether it's HR or the human, the fellow executive that's advocating for this person, we think we're being nice by giving them this opportunity. But to your point, we're actually setting them up to have a horrible experience. And then that experience based on how human behavior happens. Right. If you're having a bad experience, that's going to trickle down to their teams. And we're creating chaos. Chaos. So it's really important that we get that piece. Right. And I personally feel it's your job to make sure this doesn't happen. But you and I both know that HR can't always be the single point of control there. So, specific to our fellow HR folks in the audience, what would you say or what guidance would you give them if they encounter this kind of situation?

Speaker A: Particularly, I think, if you have two candidates and one isn't ready, but the other one is overly ready. Right. And so to be asking those questions, to say, this is what this job requires. Mita hasn't had X, Y or Z experience. It seems like a pretty big gap. How are we going to fill that gap? What's the plan? Because if you can convince someone that you're going to upskill them and there's an onboarding plan, fine. But if it's like, oh, she's got it, she'll figure it out. She'll learn on the job. And I think we have a lot of. I always talk about facts versus feelings. Right. A lot of feelings about things. But let's stick to the facts of, uh. Here's what the role entails. Nita's had incredible experience. She just hasn't done this yet and there's a pretty big gap. So can we talk about that openly and honestly? And I think if you continue to ask those specific questions and try to drill in, then people have to provide answers. And when you can't provide answers, then you might take a step back and say then to think about this and come back to the team.

Speaker B: Hi everyone, my name is Olivia Cream. If you are a corporate girly and you are struggling, you're feeling stuck, maybe you're feeling underpaid, over qualified, you're struggling with your boss or bigger yet, you're even trying to clearly articulate what it is that you want from your corporate career. I am the coach for you. So if you're ambitious and you've got goals to accomplish and you want to accomplish them quickly, check out my website, olivia cream.com I would love to help you reach your goals.

Speaker C: Hi everybody, I'm Archita Fritz, your other host of the Embracing Only podcast. If you're ready to leave corporate or you've changed a couple of corporate jobs and wanted to start a profitable side brilliance, you've made the decision, but you feel unsure of the next steps. Here's how I can help you. I can guide you through a successful transition to entrepreneurship to help turn those ideas into profit. So reach out to me on LinkedIn or visit me on achitafritz.com to accelerate your empowered M transitions. Now back to the episode. Yeah, let's like double click on that. Because if you were to give me like a diagnostic mital so you're like, listen, I'm looking at the survey like this engagement survey. We used to have Q12, Gallup engagement surveys and all these other engagement surveys. So what data point inside an engagement survey could be the first, like earliest signal, smoke signal of a future midnight devil email.

Speaker A: Listen, generally I've seen from my experience and research the first time you do an engagement survey result, people are pretty willing to be honest. It's the first time they're filling it out or if you have created a safe space or if they have no other avenues to give feedback and so listen to those whispers, they will be the loudest listen to what people are saying outside the engagement survey. You might be hearing rumblings. And then you know what, it's a really simple believe the data. A lot of times people don't believe the data. I've worked with leaders. I'll remember this one leader who said to me, there is no way this data is right. This is not the experience women, uh, are having in my organization. But I said it was like baffling. It's a little bit like the gaslighting we're seeing happening on a national stage right now in the US and you're like, but this is what it says. And I'm like, are we looking at the same piece of paper and then going on this hunt to go back to all those people and ask them the same questions again and you get the same responses. But I do think listening, I think I've worked with too many leaders who will dismiss, make excuses. It was a layoff. The business was under duress. We lost a client, stock price was down, we lost funding. And so they'd negate everything. So sometimes it's right there and we just don't want to see it.

Speaker B: Like I'm having, my body's having black

Speaker A: bags

Speaker B: listening to you say I'm having a physical response. Because you're absolutely right. It's intellectual gaslighting when you have this data in front of you and somebody's just like, nope, this isn't real. And you're like, I'm sorry, what?

Speaker A: I'm sorry, paper. Are we looking at the same numbers?

Speaker B: The data guys, let's operate from a place of the data is data. So I'm going to switch gears just a little bit and talk about the employees because you've hinted to add it a little bit here at the current state of affairs in America where diversity is under attack, companies are changing their strategies. And I actually read something on, I think it was Sherm yesterday. Nope, Sorry, it was McKinsey yesterday where they said that companies are actually not hiring as many people of color anymore because they're, uh, afraid that their diversity numbers are going to go up and that they're going to have to answer questions about why they're still pouring into diversity just by the data. Right. So same data set, but now companies are avoiding hiring qualified minorities and women. Right. Underrepresented people because they don't want to answer questions about diversity. I just want to stop there and just get your thoughts on the current state of affairs and then maybe your advice for leaders or even employees that are sitting in these companies today that are feeling a trickle down effect from this thought process.

Speaker A: Where do I begin except to say I'm exhausted from the outrage. I'm exhausted from feeling outraged because I can pick up my phone today and something else has occurred. And so it's the outrage that's keeps me exhausted. And also, I have a responsibility to know what's happening in the world and think about what I want to do, particularly not leaving my children and all of our children worse off than what we found in our workplaces. So I think there's that. And making sure you're taking care of your mental health so you can plug in when you need to and then actually take action, I think is really important. Get your resumes ready, people. The market will swing back. Get your resumes ready. We will vote with our feet. That's what we do. And also, it's not your job to fix a system that's broken. You alone can't do it. And so you have to think about the ways in which practically you can have conversations, stand up for yourself, stand up for others. But if a system is broken and I think I alone can fix it, that's just not what's going to happen. But we all can think about ways in which we can do that in whatever we're doing in our workplaces. And then I think the biggest thing right now, I don't know how you all feel about this. This is what I'm feeling like I am voting with my wallet. Vote with your wallet. When this episode drops, hopefully things will have changed. But I'm not shopping at Target anymore. Accidentally bought something and I returned it. I am a proud Costco member. Whatever money I have, I'm thinking about how I want to spend it. And you're seeing the effects of Target in the marketplace, right? You're seeing what's happening. And then you're seeing a brand like elf, which is incredible that CEO Elk comes on CNN the week after President Trump's inauguration and is doubling down on DNI efforts and just made a really great acquisition in the marketplace. So, anyways, think about that. Like, what are the individual things that you can be doing otherwise? It's overwhelming. Absolutely overwhelming. But what can you as an individual do?

Speaker C: But that's such a great focus on what can you control right now. You know, it's such an important focus on that narrative. And I think, I hope folks can hone in on that. What can you control? You absolutely can control this. So if this really matters to you, instead of rage scrolling, and I love that rage scrolling, like, rage high cortisol. Like, I want to feel high cortisol right now. I'm going to scroll through my news because it's going to feel, like, heightened and it's going to feel great. I need to talk to some of my friends and they're like, oh, it's such a good day. And they purposefully choose to scroll. I'm like, what the hell are you doing to yourself? Yeah, vote with. Not just vote with your wallet, do that as well. But then show up with local small businesses, support them, um, in all these different spaces. And my gosh, like, whenever I used to go to the US Target was my go to for my kids shopping.

Speaker A: It's really amazing to see what's happened to that brand.

Speaker C: Just physically. I cannot get myself in April to even go there. Like, I had to get car seats for my kids. We flew in our car and my cousin went, did not even think. And she ordered it. And I was like, I don't need car seats. Are you turning the damn thing back or we're going to get it.

Speaker A: What happened to me? I actually return. I actually bought pajamas for my daughter. And I was like, nope, return.

Speaker C: That's the thing. And it's crazy. They're feeling it. They saw the percentages for traffic dropped like crazy, et cetera. So if you were to go from, like, that level and you are sitting in a company right now, what are some, like, systemic, like, KPIs incentive plans or talent reviews that organizations can scale or shift or change in order to ensure we don't keep minting the devil in the White House or the devil in our boardroom at scale?

Speaker A: You both believe it as well. Inclusion's a driver of the business, full stop. I'm sitting in the US right now. Procter Gamble tells us over $5 trillion of spending power with the multicultural consumer veterans, individuals with disabilities, LGBTQ community, and more. Right now, 40% of individuals identify as non white in the U.S. that number's drastically changing. And so just from a business perspective and insight perspective, are you serving these communities and who are you overlooking purposely or unintentionally, and why? It just seems like good business. Yes. Is it the moral imperative? Yes. But also as a business person, how are you going to grow if you're not understanding the communities you operate in? Servant. And I think Target's a really interesting example of they actually have been doing that really well.

Speaker C: Literally did that speaking for all three of us.

Speaker A: We were Target consumers and they were showing up for me and speaking for me, and then all of a sudden make all these really drastic decisions is, no, those two things have to match. Which is what I think you're also asking is like, the external has to match the internal. That if you say you're no longer going to do all of these things that you promised your Employees are also your consumers.

Speaker B: I have to ask you this question. Actually, I'm going to make a comment before I ask you this question, because my Britney just had my media. You're such a great person to stoke thought for me. But to that point, we've noticed over time companies have this performative growth strategy, right, where they will get behind some kind of social movement, whether it's LGBTQ plus support or it's, you know, Black Lives Matter or whatever the hot social topic is of the time. But it's performative because they just want to capitalize on the emotion that's flowing around as part of their growth strategy. But as soon as that, well, dries up or maybe it becomes less interesting, you see that dramatic shift into something else. So can you talk a little bit about, as you're advising companies or sitting in these companies, your thoughts around valued based capitalism? Right. Is it important for companies to really pick a value and stick to it, or is it okay from a growth strategy that, hey, maybe the values, social values shift a little bit depending on what it is they're trying to accomplish from a growth perspective.

Speaker A: I think it's really going to hurt your brand and your company's overall growth if you keep flip flopping, right? So if you decide it's Pride. So last year I had all this Pride packaging and I did the parade and I did this and listen, I've been there. But then all of a sudden, because the market has shifted and the administration is different, you're now going to bend and you're going to say, no, oh, we don't do that anymore. What signal does that send to the marketplace and the customers? Right, the consumers who are your employees? I think also what you're saying is the performative actions, your employees will be quick to say you're sponsoring the New York City Pride Parade, but you don't have a supportive community for LGBTQ community internally. Like, no longer can you separate the internal and external. You can't. And it's really interesting. I'd written a piece a while ago for Bad Week on Kanye west and Adidas, and I believe he goes by E now and that whole journey. And there was actually an employee on LinkedIn, an employee who worked at Adidas who was calling out Adidas for saying we should have cut ties with Kanye west for anti Semitism and anti black sentiment. And you're like, wow, so now employees have a microphone. So you have employees now that are working at companies because they're like, I don't like, this is my value. And I don't care. So almost go ahead and fire me. And that's a really interesting place for a company to be because now what are you going to do? Fire the employee who actually spoke up and said, this is actually what's happening internally? These are the headlines you're seeing. And so you also have to be careful of this idea that I believe employees can be your biggest advocates and they can fight for you and show up for your company. The moments that matter, they can be setting little fires internally and externally do both. And you want them to be your biggest advocates. That's what you want?

Speaker C: Gosh, yes. You know what's so interesting is I love that example. I'm going to go find this right now because we need more employees speaking up because just too many are just too scared. Like on basic things. Meeta People are scared to even just post on LinkedIn, just regularly, just to have a thought, just a thought, not even confrontational thought. And it's so fascinating because having been in the system myself for a long time, I remember you don't consciously think to behave that way. You unconsciously just are like, my thoughts are not meant for public consumption. I don't know. I'm just Thinking like in 2019 is when I purposefully started, okay, you know what, I'll start sharing. I remember in a sales meeting, 2020, the start of the year, sales meeting, literally two weeks before COVID hit, I had just started talking about my podcast and VP sat me down and she's like, oh, so I see you're posting a lot on LinkedIn. It's interesting. Why do you think you should share your thoughts on there? And I just know I sat there and I was like, it's my podcast. Like, I'm free to share what I want to share. I'm not doing anything otherwise. And you have been in large corporations and you share a lot on your LinkedIn feed. And how do we encourage folks to start claiming their voice?

Speaker A: So one of the things I looked at in research from the double emails of midnight is the history of the workplace. M and so you think about, I think about my dad, rest in peace. When he was working, he would read his Boston Globe. We were in Massachusetts in the US and he would have his tea and toast and he would go to work and come back and yell at us because he wanted to watch six o' clock news. There was such a clear line between work and home and that doesn't exist anymore. And also this time of loyalty, that was a two way street. I work for you, I'm unwavering in my commitment. I show up for you, and in return, I am there for 30 years. And this is true story. A family friend leaves at T after 30 years and gets a gold Rolex. Gold Rolex, Right. Pension. And, you know, the rise of globalization from the US Perspective and job shifting. Loyalty is dead, but somehow employers still expect it from employees. So this idea of, why do you have a podcast? Why are you doing these side hustles? Guess what? I need a portfolio strategy because tomorrow I could be let go because that, uh, loyalty just doesn't exist anymore. And I don't blame companies. It's for all kinds of big shifts that have happened in our world. And so why are you threatened when somebody is doing other things? I had this conversation with the leader, a friend at a checker, because she found out someone else is doing another side hustle that works for her.

Speaker C: This is okay.

Speaker A: If you let her go tomorrow for whatever circumstances, what security does she have other than maybe unemployment? I don't even know what's happening with unemployment and how much that'll be cut or supported in the U.S. and so we have to start thinking about this is the new world we're living in. Yes.

Speaker B: Oh, my God. I'm like, I'm itching again in my skin here, Mita, because I think I,

Speaker A: um, hope that's a good thing.

Speaker B: It's a good thing because you're radical. Candor is something that all employees need to hear, right? And we see this, and I know you guys know I'm database. So this is two opinions here, but go do your own research. Loyalty is dead. The loyalty from employer to employee, totally dead. And you'll feel it in different areas. But I can tell you as an executive and even as a fractional hr, use a person. You see it in the way the companies are writing their policies now. Um, you see it in the way the compensation is being aligned. I'll give you a prime example for anyone out there listening that you fit this description. I want you to do something immediately. I was working with a company, and I was taking a look at their. First of all, they're telling me, hey, our problem is we're not growing organically, but our people tend to be here for a really long time. So they weren't having high turnover, to be honest, I don't know how, but the turnover was low. And they feel like their employees are misaligned to their job titles. So somebody with a certain set of skills, you're calling them something else. And Crazy time, right? So, long story short, they needed help with org design. Nita, I got into the org design, and here's what I started to see. You had an engineer, a thermal nuclear engineer, okay? One of the most technical engineering disciplines out there. The man had a doctorate in thermonuclear engineering, had been with the company for 16 years, was middle of the road. From a cost of living geography perspective, he was making $89,000.

Speaker C: What the, uh. What the hell?

Speaker A: Seriously, I'm, uh, looking at this and

Speaker B: I'm like, how are they keeping these people? Like, I am baffled.

Speaker C: It's like middle America somewhere, and they have nowhere else to go because there are just fields and fields and no opportunity. And then they're stuck. That's just asked to be that. That's ridiculous. His doctor costs like 10 times more than that.

Speaker B: Exactly. And these poor people are basically living in poverty because they have to pay their student. The math isn't nothing, Right? Your salary isn't even enough to pay off your student loan. But this employee felt so passionately. I've been here for 16 years. I want to see this company succeed. And had abandoned his need for self preservation. I wanted to shake him and be like, dude, are you serious right now? Of course I can't do that in my capacity here. But it's just to give you an example for our audience listening is to give you an example of the type of egregious things that are really happening out here in these corporate streets. And Mita is absolutely right. The only way that you can protect yourself from becoming a statistic, right? To, uh, being a surprise riff. And tomorrow your job is gone. And you've worked 16 years for something that you call your baby. And tomorrow, you know, they've replaced you before your seat is even cool. The only way that you can prevent yourself from becoming a victim is by what architect are saying is using your voices, building other pipelines for security. You just can't. You can't behave like this was 15 years ago and think the company's going to take care of you. You just can't. You can't think like that anymore.

Speaker A: You said it.

Speaker C: I mean, we both have. I mean, we pivoted out. I'm like, peace out. Goodbye, good riddance.

Speaker B: It's hard.

Speaker A: I'm so excited for you both to read book one of the other bosses I profiled. The title is of the chapter, the Boss who questioned my Loyalty and Called me a Rat. Um, the name of the nickname, Tony Soprano. I have nicknames for every single One of the bosses. I changed the details. I hope these people are good leaders now. But it was this idea that I was supposed to do an assignment for only a year on the team, and then it was actually not a year because he never let people go, especially if they were good. He was a talent hoarder. So it was like, well, how dare you be looking at career opportunities internally? How dare you network with other leaders? Oh, but I thought I was only gonna stay. No, you leave when I say you leave. And, uh, I've watched a lot of leaders operate this way. Listen, if you love someone, you let them go internally and externally, they'll come back. Your path will cross again if you were meant to work together and let them go if you really care about their careers.

Speaker C: I mean, gosh. So I was recently in Cincinnati, Ohio, talking to a group of, like, early talent leaders, and I was doing some research for this, and I found Infosys, which is like, you know, a large consulting. Good, bad, Lots of issues with it. But anyway, large consulting firm, they have a whole alumni program, right? They're really like, please go, cross, pollinate, go wherever. 70% of their pipeline comes from their alumni.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: 70% of their pipeline comes from their alumni. And this is what boggles my mind when we have exit interviews or sometimes m. People don't even have exit interviews.

Speaker A: They're canceled.

Speaker C: But, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker C: Or whatever. It's such a joke. It's like they're losing the opportunity for further advocates. And these are, like, large Fortune 500 companies. It's such a shame. And so you shed one really bad boss behavior. If you were to look at, like, the onlys in the workplace, underrepresented talent, like. Like, what's a bad boss behavior that pretends to help that talent but actually harms them? You called out the talent holder. Is there another one that's out there where you're just like, gosh, watch out for this.

Speaker A: Listen, always the bridesmaid, never the bride, always the number two, never the number. Yes. And it also really.

Speaker C: Olivia's having it here.

Speaker A: And takes advantage of my cultural upbringing, which I struggle with, is that my parents taught me to work hard at all costs. We can have a competition. I'll outwork anyone now. I didn't work on the right things, always didn't work smart, and people would take advantage of that. Like, I took on a lot of office work, a lot of multiple tasks. Sometimes I did it to myself, but other times, people knew that I would do it. Dangle the carrot. To think I would get promoted. And I wouldn't. That's not how you get promoted, by taking everything off. First of all, if it's not important to the company, it's just not important. And then also, if you aren't able to share the metrics of why this is driving the business, all of those things, it's just not. It's not going to get you promoted.

Speaker B: No, this is a good one. Uh, because I think I can only speak for my demographic, but black women in particular fall for this trap all the time. And I think from a society perspective, you're groomed from your little girl. It's like you sacrifice yourself for everybody else. You sacrifice for your job, you sacrifice for your family, sacrifice for your spouse. You sacrifice. And the way this shows up in our career is I was talking to a coaching client. Oh, my God, last night, Mia, that was telling me, oh, she's doing this. And then she jumped to this, and now she's after this. And I'm like, girl, what are you doing? Like, you've done all of it. What are you doing? Like, where are we headed? Right? Like, what's the ultimate goal here? And she literally could not tell me. And so what happens is we're burning out because we're working hard. Because the mission, like you just said in our minds, is just work hard. You got to outwork everybody, because that's what you've been told your entire life. But you also said something so profound, you weren't working on the right things. Yes, yes, work hard. But is it in alignment to where you ultimately want to be? And how do you know that? Did you go talk to hr? Did you say, uh, hey, do you need this experience, this side project that you're pouring an extra 20 hours a week into? Do you actually need this experience? Or are you just doing this because you wanted attaboy from your boss? Like, why are you. Absolutely.

Speaker A: And it's so interesting, because when I talk about this in social media and my writing, people will say, you're telling people not to work hard. No, that's not what I'm saying. I wouldn't be here on this podcast with the two of you. I wouldn't have a Wall Street Journal USA bestselling book. I wouldn't have a second book coming out. All these things. It is hard work. It's working on the right things and asking the questions to think about. Is this what's going to help me advance and grow? And then I'm also not saying that you're never not going to do administrative Remotable tasks at work. It's just there were moments in my career I was like 70% of what I was doing, and then at night, I'm trying to catch up doing the real work.

Speaker B: Yes, I resonate with that one too. As an HR person. They think we're the designated coffee giver. I'm sorry, what? Like, when did I become the designated lunch? Why is this happening?

Speaker C: Um, I would have beaten that person down. That's nonsense. I don't settle for that crap. We have Devil's emails at midnight. So a leader at 11pm should

Speaker A: be in bed.

Speaker C: Okay, 11pm Should.

Speaker A: I said, all right. Or Netflix binging.

Speaker C: There you go. Uh, another one. A leader at 11pm should, like dealing

Speaker A: with a sick child or.

Speaker C: There you go. Yes.

Speaker A: It's not normal. We've normalized emailing a midnight. How is this normal? Like, it's not. I'm m. Like, it's not normal. And then people say to me, but I'm on a global team. Is it? That's not the point. You should not be sending. It's okay if someone else is. And then you're receiving it. Because that's what we do. We're all on global teams. But that, to me, it's been the funniest reaction to the book. Or the other reaction I get is, well, I'm saving all my emails and I send them in the morning. And so I looked at this leader. I'd come off stage and did a big talk on the book. And he was like, I love your book, but I don't do that. And I said, okay, so when I log in at 8:30 in the morning, am I receiving a barrage of emails from you? And then as the light bulb went off, because that's also what he was doing. He was like sending them all at 8:30, all 25 of them that he had drafted all night.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: I'm going to raise my hand up. Like, I've been this leader. I was this leader. And I had to have my team call me out on it. They're Kachit, I don't care that you do schedule send at 2am in the morning. Because the reality too, is that you are dealing with a sick child or you're dealing with your sick self. And especially when Covid hit too. And we all just started getting comfortable with being deathly sick on a zoom call. Like, why the hell should that be normalized? So that's become so normal right now. You're like, oh, I'm on a zoom call. It's Fine, I'll just log into this and hack my way through because it's not a big deal because everyone's there, right? And so you get on there and then you're going one meeting to the next, you're not touching your emails and then it's 10pm at night and you're like, oh, I'll tackle these emails now. But hold on, my team said they don't like to receive these emails in the night, even though I don't expect a response because some people also write in the bottom of their email. My email might come at a time that's not convenient for you. I don't expect a response. Then respond when you will. But it's the nature of the emails too. The minute, uh, the boss sends a message, the minute your manager sends a message, your body physically sends a reaction, whether you like it or not, whether you want to look at your phone or not. You can put the blame on the employee to control their environment, but that's not going to shift. So I really want to understand what should people not imitate, what should they create like environment, should they create where it's like, hey, this is all the work I can get done as a leader in this time and I'm not going to extend into these, bleed into these other hours and make it normal as that's the only way to do this job as well.

Speaker A: You have to role model that, right? It starts with role modeling and what tone you set. I talk about in the double emails at midnight. Mary Kondo, who's the famous, helps you remember what items bring joy in your life and what don't and really is the organizing master. And it's the same thing with our calendars. How much are we doing at work meetings that we don't need to be in that are reoccurring, that no one ever canceled, meetings where there's actually no decision maker, meetings where there's no agenda. So this idea of like, you don't actually have time to do work at work because you're in meetings and that's where the whole thing. So like setting these rules of the road of like when you're actually going to be doing deep work, when you're blocking your calendar, when you don't have to go to a meeting, you're going to delegate, or just saying we don't need this meeting meeting, or why do we have to email things? If you have a weekly meeting or you have a daily standup, why isn't it at that time you're going through the Things and oftentimes I love that you said you were guilty of it. I've been guilty of it too. I want to get it off my plate. So I send the email. Yes, let me write it down in my notebook. However I organize myself and then present it to the team is here are the things we need to be working on. Just like all these forms of communication are simply broken, they're simply broken on how you use them.

Speaker C: It's so broken. I hate email. I was in an onboarding for a supervisory board role. I have the management team sitting around me and I literally told them and I, and this was three weeks ago. And I was like, I just want to be really honest with you. I hate email. I do not look at my email. If something is crazy urgent outside of our regularly cadenced check in meetings, you can like WhatsApp me because I hate to read and it could be like my ADHD brain. I don't know. I cannot compute pages and pages of descriptions that are. That should be another book.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: I think you both have super valid points. Something that keeps coming to mind as I'm listening to this discussion is what does the employee need from us? Because my fundamental belief, and this is probably the military background in me, is once you become a leader, it's not about you, it's about, it's about what your team needs. And our fundamental mission should be to create more leaders. Yes, growth for sure. But as a leader, I believe our job is to create other leaders. Right. So I find myself always with my team. Do you like email or would you prefer to talk things through? Sometimes you've got these introverts, uh, me as a recovery introvert, myself, especially when you're dealing with engineers, they're like, for the love of God, don't call me. They do not want to get on the phone with you. They want the email, they want to prepare, they want to stew whatever you're going to ask them. They want time to think about it, uh, before you get on a call with them. So I would just maybe offer another perspective. Talk to your people and see what

Speaker A: works best that's so important. And when you read about the devil in the opening chapter in my book, it's more about the emailing at midnight. It's about time being the most precious commodity in our relationships. And she never had time for me except the hours of 10pm and 1am when she dumped her inbox out. So this idea of how do you make time and coach to your point, when you're a leader, your Number one job is to create more leaders. Are you just sending orders over email or are you actually making the time to coach and teach people?

Speaker C: Gosh, that's so important that coach versus order giver, right? That's fundamentally what it is. So I know we're coming up at time like and we're going to do a little fast forward now. Meet us. So imagine it's September 30, 2030, right? Five years post launch of Devil emails at midnight. What like one workplace, like behavior or metric you hope is fundamentally shifted. And how would we know it has fundamentally shifted?

Speaker A: I think the biggest challenge right now is that people don't want to be managers. People are opting out generation entering the workplace. So how do we exhibit good leader behaviors that people want to lead? I think we have a crisis in the workplace, particularly in the US where people don't want to lead anymore, they want to opt out. I want to be individual contributor. I want to do what I really do well, expertise, collect my paycheck and I might do some things on the side, but I don't want to lead people. I don't see the value in this. So I hope five years from now, this book and your podcast and other conversations are inspiring people to want to lead again and to understand. It's a privilege. It's joy. There's so many wonderful things when you can help shape someone else's career and journey, it's a privilege.

Speaker B: I love that perspective. I, uh, have to pile on there because I often say that leadership is an honor and a privilege. Don't get me wrong, it is hard, right? It's something, it's thankless. But when you think about how much time they spend at work, if you're trying to make an impact on this world, what a better way to do that, A, ah, positive impact than to lead people, right? You have the great privilege of touching so many lives. So we have a true responsibility to make sure we're making those lives better, not worse.

Speaker C: Absolutely. No, I mean, Mita, I mean, where can people find you? Where can they get ready to purchase this awesome book? I didn't share this earlier, but, uh, my EMBA class, we are going to be buying your reimagine inclusion for the entire class. It's going to be the December module and it's 50 plus people. And I'm going to talk to you about this later on, but I'm just like, I shared this with the academic director and he's like, stop. This is unreal. This is an amazing book where's this book been, so I'm sure the same is going to be for maybe Rick

Speaker A: can pop in and say hello virtually.

Speaker C: Oh my gosh, they would love it.

Speaker A: They'd be like, I'm so honored when people read my book.

Speaker C: Oh gosh. They'd be like celebrity signings.

Speaker A: I will follow up on that. You can find the devil emails at midnight. What good leaders can learn from bad bosses. You can pre order on Amazon. You can go to Barnes and Noble, your local bookseller launches September 30th in the US and then other markets to follow. You can find me on LinkedIn. I love talking to people and meeting new people and my website, meetamallic.com awesome.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for joining us again.

Speaker A: Thank you both. I got to be be a repeat guest. I'm so honored.

Speaker C: No, we were so excited you said your book's coming out. And I'm like, oh gosh, Olivia, we need Meeta back. And then you're like, cake. And I'm like, yeah, of course, folks, go get the book. And if you haven't read the imagined inclusion, go read it. Go listen to Meeta's previous episode. This has to be in your library, the one that you recommend across the board for all your leaders. And stay well, everybody, and we'll see you soon. Thank you all.