92: The Cost of Loyalty & The Power of Letting Go with Karen Madison

Speaker A: I won here. I have a legacy here. And you not remembering me, that's on you. That's not a reflection of me. So there has to be a little bit of something within you to accept that you're going to have those moments, but then just come back. Don't let it keep you down.

Speaker B: Hello. Embracing only family. We are so excited. Today we have with us Karen Elise Madison. Karen is an award winning sales rep on so many, so many levels in pharma. She has won every single award you can possibly imagine. And having been in med device sales, I know how hard it is to go after winning all of these awards, everything from the Circle of Excellence award to a Market Access Perceptor award to an Inclusion and Diversity Perceptor award. And listen to this folks. Only what the top 1% get the world Champion Award. And if that was not enough, in 2024, she went on and became the chapter president of the national sales network of D.C. and Baltimore. And beyond all of her amazing sales achievements, Karen is deeply committed to mentorship, representation and leadership development. And she mentors so many emerging professionals through programs like Basis in Stonehenge College and Maryland Maid, which is at the University of Maryland. And Karen is known for blending strategic insight with passion for uplifting others, whether guiding healthcare providers, empowering peers, or investing in the next generation of leaders. And Karen, we cannot wait to get started and dig into everything that is your amazing career and what you are doing today. So welcome to the Embracing Only.

Speaker A: Thank you, thank you for such a fantastic welcome. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: We're so glad to have you. So I'm going to kick it off here, Karen. So one of the things you say is that, you know you have here. We shared this in the bio as well as you're deeply committed to mentorship. And I was at the British Business Club of Dusseldorf yesterday giving a talk on just this topic which was mentorship and advisorship. And I looked around the room and there were about 25 folks who were in the later stages of their career. And I asked folks, how many of you have ever had a mentor? And only a third of them raised their hand up.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And when I asked them why, a lot of them said was because they're like, we've already spent so much of our life doing things, we know how to do it. We don't see why we need to have a mentor. So if there are folks here who are 15, 20, 30, 40 years into their career, could you kind of shine a light on like, you know, the importance of mentorship and, and then how it has helped shaped you and your journey to where you're, you're uh, at today for sure.

Speaker A: I mean I always need help.

Speaker C: Yes, I feel the same.

Speaker A: If we cut it to one sentence it would be that. But at uh, no point in my career did I ever have it 100% together. So there's always people that have been in your shoes before or similar places maybe at a different company. So I would be foolish to say that I don't need any help. I might need say a mentor. That just is my tone police.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: How do I say this without being offensive or I have other friends that are mentors because while I'm not a um, manager of people in the corporate sense, I do have a leadership team that I work with at nsn and I've never been manager trained but I am a leader in that respect. So I have people for that. So I think people are missing out on uh, not having mentors because it's just a way to bounce ideas off of or ways to find out things to do different or that check you need to say, hey mate, you're asking me this, here's where I can help you fill in a gap. So there's just no reason to not have a mentor.

Speaker C: I love that answer so much at so many points in time in my life. I mean earlier in my career I share the story all the time. I had a mentor within the company that kind of just adopted me. He was just like, I'm going to be your mentor because you need it. And here we go. And the feedback he gave me, Karen, I promise you, changed the course of my career. And it was a tone thing for me, right. Because I had just left the military and so, you know, I was, we're going to accomplish the mission Compeller high water. And I didn't realize in the civilian space that you needed to care about what people's feelings. So I needed somebody to check me and thank God for him, right? Because I wasn't getting that feedback from my normal management chain.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: And I shudder to think what would have happened to me if I didn't have this kind human adopt me as his mentee, you know, and give me some unsolicited advice.

Speaker A: 100%. It makes all the difference.

Speaker B: I had a manager who joke with me that would say achita collects mentors. But I'm never going to shy away from that because I have five mentors at a time because you're a complex human being and there's not just one Person that understands all aspects of where you show up in this world, especially when you are, you know, an only right. You're the first in all these spaces. You need people on all sides who are not the first, not the only to kind of step in and help you with certain things. You need folks who are living that, who have been there to help you with certain things. And so to me, I'm like, at any given point in time, I have my 5 go tos that fill certain aspects of things I need coaching and guidance with, et cetera. Right. So, Taran, I'm curious. You've had many firsts, many only journeys, you know, over the course of your career. How have you worked with either mentors or sponsors, et cetera, in your like, first and only journey to help you see things that you probably didn't see for yourself that you were really great at?

Speaker A: I think when you are isolated, being one of few or maybe the only in a, uh, space that sometimes it's so daunting and it's so hard to keep your game face on despite how you're feeling, that sometimes the mentor is for that and sometimes navigating that space, we all know that that's tough. And sometimes I've been in points in my career where I probably needed my mentors so much more than I relied on them because I was just in a cocoon trying to survive. So sometimes, you know, we go into our turtle shell and we're just trying to make it. And by releasing that, I felt like I wasn't going to be able to handle anything. So I just would buckle down, head down and try and get everything done. I could have used some of my mentors. They didn't know that I needed them. I couldn't verbalize that. So I think we need to make sure that that's another reason to have a mentor. It's not always for I want to go here in my career. Maybe it's just survival where you are.

Speaker C: I love that take and I'm going to pivot us a little bit here to get deep into your sales journey. Because what we notice is that high performing women, the women that tend to listen to this podcast, are cheating. I are self proclaimed high performing women. We do not how we are.

Speaker B: We're not proclaimed. Hold on, hold on, girl. Hold on.

Speaker C: Well, hold on. All I mean is we're owning the title. Yeah, we're owning it. We're claim it. Yeah, that's all. I mean, don't come for me. You two are ready to come for me. Like, I don't know what that was. I don't know what that was.

Speaker A: Just making sure you knew who you were.

Speaker B: I'm like 10pm I'm, um, in my energy zone of the full moon on July 10th. Cut me some snack.

Speaker C: Hi, everyone, my name is Olivia Cream. If you are a corporate girly and you are struggling, you're feeling stuck, maybe you're feeling underpaid, overqualified, you're struggling with your boss, or bigger yet, you're even trying to clearly articulate what it is that you want from your corporate career. I am the coach for you. So if you're ambitious and you've got goals to accomplish and you want to accomplish them quickly, check out my website, Olivia cream dot com. I would love to help you reach your goals.

Speaker B: Hi, everybody. I'm Archita Fritz, your other host of the Embracing Only podcast. If you're ready to leave corporate or you've changed a couple of corporate jobs and want to start a profitable side brilliance, you've made the decision, but you feel unsure of the next steps, here's how I can help you. I can guide you through a successful transition to entrepreneurship to help turn those ideas into profit. So reach out to me on LinkedIn or visit me on achitafritz.com to accelerate your empowered transitions. Now back to the episode.

Speaker C: Okay, all right, everybody back. Easy. So for us high performing women, let me rephrase so Archita doesn't jump through the screen at me here. Sometimes we don't know when to hit the off button. We don't know when to ask for help and we certainly don't know when to stop. Right? So it becomes this trend of push through no matter what. Now, the push through no matter what definitely gets results, but there's injury that happens along the way. Let me just back up here. So I set the stage for the question, okay? The sales space is an incredibly lucrative industry, right? Archita, uh, and I were both in medical device. We both started there. That's how we met. And what we know for a fact is that black and brown people are underrepresented in sales. Specifically any kind of medical sales were underrepresented. I think these days it's like 3.8%. And recently you contributed, you're a co author to the book Pivot Point. Everyone, if you're interested in sales, go to and you're a person of color, go check out Pivot Point. But you're a contributing author to this book. Now, as an only in sales and a woman in sales, you must have come across several biases. Okay, uh, and I want you to talk about this because there are so many people that come to us. How do I break into the industry? Or, man, I'm afraid to break into the industry because no one looks like me. And if I'm 100% commissions and my doctors are all white and they don't want to buy from me, what happens? But there is so much money in this. It is a wealth maker. It is a generational wealth builder for black and brown communities. So can you talk to us about your journey through med device and maybe some of the nonsense that you encountered and your methods for overcoming.

Speaker A: So take a seat. Strap in.

Speaker C: All right, I'm ready.

Speaker A: I'm ready. So the way I got into pharma, uh, is mentioned in the book the Pivot Point. And by the way, before I forget, a personal thank you to you both from Greg Peel, the author of this Pivot Point, which is just a phenomenal read, even being part of it. The 15 other people highlighted, I'm in awe to be in the same mentioned in the same breath with them. So I got this job because a friend of a friend moved from Pennsylvania to the Maryland area for a job and her house fell through. And so because she was a friend of a friend, I was like, do you want to stay here for a month or two and get yourself together? And she came and she was living on my couch. So I mean, I really didn't know this woman.

Speaker C: Oh Lord, you are a saint. Because there is no way

Speaker A: would I do it. Today is a whole nother story. But back then I did. And I'm so lucky. She's one of my best friends. It's fantastic. But she got a, uh, call back from someone she interviewed with who liked her but couldn't hire her because of a job freeze. She referred him to me. And so I called this man on a Friday. He called me back on Sunday night at probably 8 o' clock saying, oh, I'll see you tomorrow for an interview at 8 in Baltimore. And I'm like, absolute panic. I was younger, I didn't have printer ink because that was a luxury. So I had to run to my friend's sister's house to print my resume. But I came in, I had a resume, I did the research, I could talk about the drugs. I didn't really know the sales proposition of feature Benefit. But somehow I made that connection and a week later I had a job. So by no means is my story the norm. I am beyond blessed. Lucky. I was ready and all the stars aligned. So I get to this role. I have no idea. I have no idea, Artita. No idea.

Speaker B: Olivia.

Speaker A: Uh, and so I go into training. I don't know anything. I don't know know. But all I know is that my managers looks like me. So I started off with some sort of, I don't want to say bubble, but it ended up being a bubble. So I was able to just get into the job, go through my growing pains, and finally, uh, the light bulb went off about 10 months later. So finally I'm like, okay, cool. So in my beginning parts of my career, I mean, I didn't notice the differences. There was a lot of people hired in that time. Primary care teams were big.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Remember back in the beginning, 20, 25 years ago, there were so many reps out here. And I was very fortunate to be in an area between D.C. and Baltimore where there was, uh, a lot of folks that looked like us. I think my challenges came a little bit later.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it's a little bit later in my career. I'm a little bit older, a lot more confident, and much more comfortable in my skin. So I'll take you back a little pre story. I grew up in Rhode island, so there's probably 10% of people that looked like me in my graduating class. I go to college and it's 2% minority at my school. In totality, 2%. So a class of 5, 50, you know, we counted five people on graduation. So I don't want to say a custom, but I could survive in that space because I had done it for 16 years of school. However, I'm in sales now. You're seeing some differences, right? Because are, uh, there a lot of doctors of color? Not necessarily. What's my exact team look like? There's a few, but we're all just trying to survive, so we're not really noticing things. But as you creep along, then some things happen. So I'll start with. I might jump around time wise, but the biggest thing here for me was the hair piece of it.

Speaker C: Archita hasn't had this, but let me tell you, the hair thing is totally a thing and I can imagine how it plays out in the field. So I'm curious.

Speaker A: It's a trigger for me. It's absolute trigger. So having been from Rhode Island, I come here, there's great hairdressers here. I start doing some different things and coloring my hair and what have you. I mean, I've had a short blonde pixie, I've had some red hair all very cute because someone else did it. But those were all of my styles. But at 40, I decided I was going to stop relaxing my hair. So when you transition from having a relaxer to curly hair, you kind of look like you play with electricity on your way out the door. So sometimes it's a good day, sometimes it's not. So, I mean, as we're growing it out, I felt like I looked crazy. But then I started to hear some commentary in the background talking about how I didn't look professional. And I was like, oh, uh, and is this commentary?

Speaker C: This is your doctors, this is your teammates. It's all of the bump.

Speaker A: And so because based on my personality, I know a lot of people and I'm fairly social, I was hearing from other people what was being said about me, and so no one had the gumption to say it to my face. So that was probably the first time. But as I was growing my hair out, had a bit of a fro, and I had a job interview, 2014, I would say, And I was nervous because my hair wasn't relaxed, it wasn't smooth, it wasn't contained, But I pulled it back in a bun, and I was like, all right, they're going to have to deal with my puff. That's it. That wasn't a big deal. But I went to an interview in 2016 with actually my hair out. I had flat twisted it, so it was, like, crinkly and a little crazy. But finally at, uh, 2016, I was like, this is it. This is the hair that grows out of my head. I dare you to say something, because why do I have to go through the labor of straightening my hair? It's a lot of money. I can't sweat because my hair will get ruined. It just was absolute confinement. So I hated it. Let's fast forward to when I start my locs. So now it's just. I think people think I'm going to, like, come out with patchouli oil and crocheted pants, but it's nothing wrong with that. But it's just, like, you're making assumptions based on my hair. You have no idea what I can do. You're not judging me on my skills or my results, but you're just looking at me because maybe this isn't the week of Retwist, and I look a little fuzzy around the edges, but this is the hair that comes out of my head. So hair has always just been that challenge for me because you want to yell, you want to defend yourself, but that's where you realize you are one of few, if not one of one in that room. So sometimes you have to suck it in, but then it comes out in some funny ways because I can't have somebody saying, I look different every time I go to a meeting and you don't recognize me. That's insulting.

Speaker C: These things are all too familiar, right? I mean, actually, Artita, you have a story that you shared about when you first started at our old company and some of the interesting comments that you got based on your appearance and your heritage. It's all too common when you're an only or one of a few that these things happen and you develop this ability to. What, Archita? Uh, and I call killing the noise, right? It's like, I'm here for a mission. This is a check mark on my path to greatness, and I'm gonna succeed in spite of whatever Yahoo has to say, whatever about whatever. I'm just ignoring it and I'm keeping on. So for you, what was your strategy in overcoming some of this nonsense? And I feel like the hair is scratching the surface, right? Like, I'm sure it runs deeper, but what was your strategy for overcoming the perceived resistance and some of the craziness in the environment? How did you keep going?

Speaker A: So I can think of a particular incident where I would be offended by the same person every time we had a meeting. So in the beginning of a launch of a device or drug, you meet a lot. So we were in meetings all year. We were still traveling. It was pre Covid. And every time I went to this meeting, a person that was the regional. So someone that I reported to, he would say to me, every time, oh, I didn't recognize you. Your hair is different. So the first time I just took it, right? Because I'm not really sure what to do. I'm still new to this division. I don't know him. But it offended me the second time. And by the third time, I decided, I'm, uh, going to take a risk and say something. So I'm not going to be slick with. I'm not going to be slick mouth. I just said, hey, next time you see me, my hair will probably still be different. Look at my face and you will remember who I am. Don't look at the hair. And so for me, I felt like that was a standup moment. But, you know, he offended me the next time. And so at that point, my strategy was to involve my manager, who unfortunately didn't think it was a big deal. M. So in that case, I'll say, I don't think I ever really solved the problem. I just became a little bit more adept at saying, remember my face. You know, look at your results. Look at sales numbers. You'll know who I am. And you kind of had to get a little spicy with it because my hair doesn't matter. I'm, um, performing. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do.

Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. Like, I've been, like, itching to say something here since the time you shared the hair story. And, you know, I hear this from a lot of my friends, but this happened yesterday in the lovely country of America, and I wrote something about it today. So the president of Liberia was sitting across our 48 and our, uh, 48. And he know the president of Liberia, he starts talking and he says, like, hey, I'm really grateful for being here, et cetera. And then he says, oh, your English. He starts with your English. Your English is just amazing. How did you learn English? Right? And just for those who don't know, Liberia was founded in the 1800s by freed black Americans. America created Liberia. Liberia did not exist. Americans created it. So for many of whom who were forcibly repatriated after surviving slavery, they were repatriated from a country that they called their own. And then they were sent to this new place that was created. And English wasn't just the official language. It's become, like, a legacy of, like, survival, of displacement, of power. And so that really triggered me, like, that nonsense yesterday. But this story, too, right? It triggers so many. And I mean, we had Kimberly McClear on here, who worked on the Crown act, and so many amazing women who, like, done so much work around this. And I say this is that for many of us, excellence is the only way we are heard, because our presence still surprises people. Those little things. You're not like the others I've worked with. You don't look like a leader or a CEO or an expert or. You're so well spoken.

Speaker C: Oh, how about articulate?

Speaker A: Uh, how about articulate?

Speaker C: You're. You're sending me to the moon because I don't even know where to start. Like, I'm so mad at. Just hearing you say that sends me into deep space. Because my entire life, like, I grew up Jamaican, by now, everybody knows that. But I've always sounded like this, right? So, Jamaica, even though we speak patois, that you will hear if I am drunk or angry, that's when you will hear it, right? But for the most part, it's British. English is spoken on the island. So for the most part, I've always sounded like this. Fast forward. I moved to America my entire life. From migrating on, it was, oh, you're so articulate. Oh, you're so well spoken. And every time I'm just, oh, so you believe only white people can be articulate? Help me here. So being articulate has a demographic. I'm so confused. Right? And you're right. It's our environments will throw these little jabs at us. But, Archita, you said something so powerful. There is that excellence is the only way out of this. And it's true. And listen, listen, you guys, you can fight us if you want. You can be like, I'm sick and tired of doing triple the work to get half the. Okay, you want this money or not, right? You want to get this bag or not? It just. Until there is a world where true meritocracy exists, because it does not. It does not. Okay. Until there is a world where true meritocracy exists, it is just the ticket to the ball game. You have to be excellent at your craft, and that comes with hard work. It comes with alignment. It comes with focus. It comes with getting mentors. It comes with getting sponsors. It comes. It comes with all of those things just so that you can accomplish your mission. But on the other side, you have to develop. I'm starting to not love the word resilience, because resilience, to me these days sounds like, how much pain can you take without dying?

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: We shouldn't be chasing the things that are so painful that it brings us to the edge of, uh, death. We should be chasing the things that

Speaker A: we do with ease.

Speaker C: Right? Do more of that. Right? So if you're naturally inclined to sales, if people are like, oh, my God, from you were a kid, you could sell ice to people in hell. I don't freaking know. But you usually get these indications early on that a particular path would be easy for you. So if you are someone who wants to get in sales, but you're scared because of the current environment, or you want to get in sales, but you're worried about being 100% commissions or how your doctors will receive you, or. Or, oh, my God, do I need to change my hair? I have locks now, too. And people still are like, oh, you're in hr, you're an executive, and you have locks, uh, girl, I do not care. I do not care.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker C: Because at the end of the day, in addition to your baseline of excellence, you have to develop the ability to ignore other people's opinions.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: Unless they Control your fate. And even if they do control your fate, there's ways around it. You have to ignore their opinion. Karen, I see you getting you leaning in.

Speaker A: No, uh, both of you are speaking my language because artich, uh, that word articulate. In my previous role, we were especially active as erg post George Floyd's murder. So I think at that point, I'd been at my company for 14 years, and I kind of felt like at that point I have enough of a, uh, good record to stand on. And not that I had political capital, but I felt like whatever I had, I was willing to use it and speak the truth and try to help fight for us. Because if we're going to talk about equity, we are going to talk about equity. And it's not going to be window dressing if I'm in the room. I mean, perhaps that's where I painted myself in a little bit of a corner. But I would do it again because at the end of the day, I need for you to understand that articulate is an awful word. And if you were my interviewer and you said that I was articulate, here I am in a position where I want to flip the table over, but that's going to have such long lasting ramifications. I can't do it. But I'm also in a position where do I even have the voice to say anything to you? Because you are in control of my fate. It just can't be like that. But I grew up with parents that also said you have to be twice as good, et cetera, et cetera. I was in a room at our home office, and at the time, there was 90 reps, five black women. If we couldn't have looked any different. I mean, we had all of the reputation. Short, tall, thicker, skinny, everybody in those five women. And I, uh, walked into a room with people I'd worked with for the whole existence of this drug. And someone said, hi, nice to meet you. And I was like, wow. We had lunch the last time we were at a meeting, like, what is happening? And I was a recent announced winner of, uh, our Circle of Excellence award. So for that moment, it did not ring true.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And that was hard for me. And it was hard for me to watch people in the room not stand up for me and say out loud, instead of the whispers, what's wrong with you?

Speaker C: I know.

Speaker A: Are you having a moment? How do you not know, Karen? The team was so small. And honestly, I probably didn't deal with that well. I cried. Not in the room, of course. Uh, but there's a point in which it does take a toll on you and for all of your followers. You know, it's not a perfect science. You can have the mentors. You could have the team of truth tellers that are in your circle. But sometimes it hurts and it's frustrating, and sometimes it comes out, and then you just regroup and say, that person's not going to beat me because guess what? I won here. I have a legacy here. And you not remembering me, that's on you. That's not a reflection of me. So there has to be a little bit of something within you to accept that you're going to have those moments, but then just come back.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Don't let it keep you down.

Speaker B: Gosh. I mean, yes, yes, yes. I should be writing notes as you're speaking here, because there's, like, so many yeses here. What you just said, this last part, we press on not because we need to prove our worth, but to build what they can't yet even imagine. And that's why we press on and what we need to all understand, whenever we feel these slights, these microaggressions, and we all are going to have those moments when we go into the toilet and we cry because, why do they make me feel so small? M. But we got to recognize that their surprise is not our freaking burden. It's their bloody mirror. And so we do not take that on. We just cannot afford to take that on because we have so much more to do. But jumping on that, I kind of want to flip it a little bit here, Karen, because in this, like, pursuit of people always telling us, you know, be twice as better, three times as good, and us recognizing very early on, you know, the example you gave, like, early on in your career, when you jump into something, you don't know any different, it actually is a blessing, right? Because you're like, I'm going to go in. So when I got off the plane From India at 17, I just assume America is the country of equality and everyone's accepted. And I was living in my university bubble because for four years, three years or whatever in university, before I started my internship, I mean, I was in the middle of the nowhere upper peninsula of Michigan, so there were not a lot of people, like, look like us either back then. Now there are, because we're everywhere. The Indians. I mean, we're 1.6 billion of us. So we're everywhere. But back then, we weren't. But when I was up there and I went into my first job and I finally realized, oh shit. But as I was just doing things and people would be like, oh my God, you're like a bull in a china shop. But I'm like, I didn't know any different because I didn't think I'd be judged for like this. I thought I would only be, you know, judged on if I was doing a good job, not doing a good job, etc. Right. But they're not used to this going around, doing things right. And um, so then you freaking overperform and we talk a lot about it for love, for acceptance. So what did that journey look like for you? Because you have a accumulated so many awards for your excellence, so much accolade for your excellence. At any point in time have you kind of gone through that journey of, okay, I need to take a step back and not overperform for this, this

Speaker C: belonging, the validation that's never going to come correct.

Speaker A: I'll say this, I left a job that I worked at the company for 18 years. And when I tell you the day that I resigned, by 2 o' clock the afternoon my job was posted and some woman was calling me asking about information about the role. And I just said, I know you're kidding me. You know, this call is not appropriate right now. And I think that to survive these different points, it takes some self reflection too, right? I mean, a lot of the incidents that we're talking about, uncalled for, unprovoked and all of that stuff, but what we can control is our reaction. So at some points you take it, but as you grow, look, as you go to therapy to understand the stress that is just constant in your body, because that helps too, that you just kind of figure out a way that you can stick up for yourself and then keep it moving. And if it's, uh, egregious that you have the words to really pull someone to the side and say, this is wildly disrespectful and this is not going to be tolerated. So I think for me, I would suggest to everyone, you got to talk it out. Because we are in a constant pressure cooker. It comes out in different ways. We are women, we're more stressed, we need more sleep, we might have an, uh, uneven load when it comes to carrying the home. Maybe, maybe not. But I think the survival for me is, was having a place to talk about it and then growing confident in defending myself at certain points. I don't have to take this from you. And sometimes we don't have to take it. We can show our resistance by walking away.

Speaker C: Oh, you got there. Because I was like, if you don't go there, I'm totally going there after you get done talking. Because I think you're right. There's a process of, um, Big Achita and I talk about this in terms of the pivot to exit wherever you are, if that's what you're looking to do. There's a process to get there, right? So first it's. You're noticing the microaggressions, right? Okay, fine. Is it tolerable? Do you need this job because it checks a box, uh, for whatever you're after, ultimately. Okay, great. Then maybe things progress and you're still trying to. One of two things I find in women. Either that next stage is, oh, I'm going to win this person over, and all of my lovely ladies and sales tend to follow it. Fall into that bucket, right? I'm going to make this person my friend. Okay, Here is the external validation that we're trying to go after. I'm going to make this person my friend or my other women that are maybe not in sales. How do I avoid this? Lack of a better word, shithead. How do I avoid them so that they don't impact me? Then perhaps it progresses to the third stage, which is, okay, now I'm having stress headaches. Now I'm having mental health issues. Now my body's breaking down because I can't figure out how to get rid of the stress. And if that's where you're at, it's time to go. It's time to go. There are other spaces. And even if we're talking, we're specifically talking to our folks interested in sales right now. But this is applicable to anyone. So there are a million companies that will hire you as a sales rep. There are a million pharma companies. There are a million med M Device companies. There are individual health systems that you could work for, right? Just because you decide that you're not no longer going to take the crap that this particular environment gives you does not necessarily mean that the train is off the tracks, okay? It just feels the train is off the tracks because we don't like the unknown. Um, we don't like to be like, you know what? Screw this. My boundaries have been violated. I'm going to go find something else. We don't like that because the I'm going to find something else is unclear, right? And we have this, um, aversion, ambiguity or that grace space, right? We have the aversion because most of us high performing Women, we like the control. We like to know what our next step is. We like our little checklist. We like to know exactly where things are coming from. And so it's really the fear of the unknown that keeps you trapped in this space that's killing you when you should be pivoting. So I would offer to our listeners, if you are on your path, I totally agree with Karen. If you've got some microaggressions and somebody's aggravating you, you need to say something, okay? Because after you say something, depending on how your environment responds, that is going to tell you whether you need to cut tail and run and start planning your exit strategy, or if, hey, yo, maybe it's just ignorance, not blatant racism. And you can work with it, right? But you can't figure that out if you don't say something, if you don't engage on the front end. Correct?

Speaker A: Correct. It's crazy. I never thought I would have left my first company. I really didn't.

Speaker C: I did.

Speaker A: Early in my career, very, very, I'll say a, uh, professionally immature departure. That's a whole nother story. But I left on good terms. So I. When I needed a job, I came back and they welcomed me back with open arms. It was fantastic. And I remember saying, I'm gonna ride this until they kick me out. Why am I letting somebody else control my fate?

Speaker C: Girl, yes, that is the question.

Speaker A: Why?

Speaker C: That is the question.

Speaker A: Now I fully own it, but I won't lie. Sometimes your family dynamics and opinions about working influence you in your subconscious. Even I have only one brother. But my brother, mother, and father have all been state employees, so I knew nothing else. So, sales. We never talked about, uh, sales as a career, but all I knew is that my parents were working to retirement in their job. And my brother, who is 55, has probably four and a half more years left before he can retire with his full pension. So I didn't have mover or shaker. I didn't have my mom or dad saying, okay, you do have to be better. But when it gets to X point, be like LeBron, take my talents to Miami, go somewhere else. And when you talk about financial, you definitely get shorted by being a loyal employee. You don't get the raises. You are watching people get hired into your company, thousands of dollars more. Thousands. I heard a rumor. Don't know if it's true. I never was able to confirm it, but I heard a girl on my team got hired at $50,000 more than me.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not surprised.

Speaker C: I'm not shocked. Uh, let me tell you, as an HR leader, I'm not shocked.

Speaker A: 50. 50. So my company, because I was a legacy employee, they offered me X amount of money. When it came time to sign, they were like, oh, no, that's not what you're going to get paid. We're offering you m. This. It was still a good race, but I was like, that's not what you said. And they were like, nope, no room to negotiate. So what am I going to do? Take a stand that cuts my nose off to spite my face? No, but I had, uh, somebody on my team who literally two years in, bought a farm. And I know I'm being, like, real simple with it. I like her. She did what she was supposed to do for herself and her family. But I was.

Speaker C: You bought a farm?

Speaker B: No, but, Karen, you make such an important point. And I really want people to really listen to this because I know a lot of. We have a lot of folks on here we love who are in those jobs because they feel like there's no other way out. For lack of loyalty. Loyalty. Or things are just going the way they are, whatever it is. And I get it, there are some things we cannot control. That is fine. And then that keeps you in that job. And I get it. But a lot of times, a lot of us have more control than we can even imagine. And everything you said, Karen, I was laughing and nodding because that's literally like, my life. Dad was a state, um, government, whatever, employee, and he retired in the same job. My mom worked for a company, retired in the same job. And so I thought I was going to retire in that company I worked at. I worked for 18 years at that company, too. Yeah, my first one, because I was convinced. And I started when I was 18, you know, as an intern. So I grew up as a child in there, and so I was convinced there's nothing wrong. There were a lot of many billion amazing, amazing, amazing things. But what I never let myself recognize through all of that amazingness was that, who the hell was I? And, um, beyond this bubble, who the heck am I beyond this logo? Who the heck am I Beyond this title? I never did that work until it was time and I decided I am going to leave for many different reasons that everybody on this podcast has heard a hundred times. And I have to be careful, because sometimes I hear podcast listeners tell me later on when they meet them, they're like, oh, I liked your last episode, but I'm not leaving my corporate job. I don't subscribe this. And I'm like, we're not sitting here telling you to leave your corporate job. We're not telling you to do that at all. We're just telling you it's. Recognize the choices you're making.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: That's it. Right? Uh, you talk about this a lot about choice.

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker C: I know we're coming up on time, so I want to hammer home this point. If you love your corporate job, it's not giving you stress headaches, it's not giving you arthritis, it's not giving you fibroids, it's not killing you and you're getting your bag and you're happy. God bless. Continue to do your corporate job. I will tell you, you are in the minority, however. Right? You are in the minority. Now, I will also say this, and this is going to sound a little woo woo. So you guys bear with me here. God uses pain and pleasure to define our path. Okay? So sometimes when you run up on a roadblock at work, because I did the same thing that you two ladies did. I got my first company fresh out of the military. I was just happy to have a job. Took a $50,000 pay cut out of the military to join this company. Did not negotiate my salary, girl. I was just happy to be there. Right? I didn't know anything about any of that. Right. Took a $50,000 pay cut. So went backwards after getting shot at for a living, which is unheard of, by the way. Don't be me. Don't do that. Super stupid. But anyways, did it. Spent 11 years at the commie. I was going to ride or not. Right? And then I ran up against some resistance because I had a goal. I knew that I would not be able to accomplish my goal, my financial goal, my title goal, all of those things at this company. That was God saying to me, olivia, you have learned everything you need to learn here. You have the experience. It's time to move. Right? So if you are in your corporate job and you love it, God bless, girl, like, keep doing your thing. Yo, listen to us. For entertainment, I'm sure you'll get some tips and tricks on how to navigate some of these meetings. Because you cannot tell me that there isn't one yahoo at your job that aggravates you. We all have them. We all have them, right? But if you're on the other side of things, all we're saying is that these companies aren't loyal. And Karen, you said it. You were out of the role. And by that afternoon, your job was posted and other people were looking to. It's not malicious, ladies. It's just business. The machine has to continue to turn. So what you choose to sacrifice for the machine is on you. Boo.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's on you.

Speaker C: Right? So with that being said, I think we're kind of coming to an end here. Archita, uh, is going to give me the hook any second now, Karen. All right.

Speaker A: I could talk to you ladies all day long.

Speaker B: I know we could do with you.

Speaker C: So as we wrap up here, Kara, I think Pivot Point is going to be exceptional. It's going to be a survival guide. Or it is. Excuse me. It already launched, so it's already a survival guide for folks that are looking, minorities that are looking to get into sales. And if you're already in sales, there's a road map on how to handle some challenges. So if you want to pick up a copy, highly recommend you can find, just search Pivot Point on Amazon. We'll include it in the show notes. And then, Karen, if anyone would like to tap into your knowledge and they need a mentor or sponsor, how do they get a hold of you?

Speaker A: Oh, sure. So I have an Instagram account at K, A L, Y C E M A D K for Karen, my middle name and the first three letters of my last name. I'm on LinkedIn at Karen Madison and yeah, I'd be happy. I love this part. Part. As we are talking about making these connections, maybe we only connect one time, but sometimes these turn into the long lasting mentorships or mutually reciprocated beneficial relationships. Those happen too. But all of these things, I got a chance to meet you all because of the book. So it's broaden your network and you'll just reap the benefits personally and professionally.

Speaker C: Couldn't agree more. Network folks, get a mentor, pick up a copy of Pivot Point and as always, take care of yourselves and take care of each other. Until next time.

Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you, Olivia. Thanks, Arteeda.

Speaker B: Thank you,

Speaker C: Sam.