Grace Andrews: Why Your Employees Are Your Most Powerful Brand Asset in 2026

We send them a press release and they copy and paste it and hit post. And I'm like, we are so far, so far from what this needs to be. I am back in the studio with Grace Andrews, who I believe probably doesn't really need much of an intro. I am Grace Andrews. I am a creative entrepreneur. I am ex brand director for Stephen Butler and the Diary of a CEO. Trusting your employees to tell their story, their version of the company story through their own lens with their own voice. Terrifying. It's not a popularity contest, it's a muscle building thing. We're rewarding people who are going out of their way above of their daily workloads, which doesn't diminish when you introduce employee advocacy or employee programs. This might be a stupid question, but who owns it? I think there was a moment in time, there was this window of opportunity where you could drive insane results through short form content and that moment has gone. I would have to produce 200 Instagram Reels more 500 Instagram Reels a week to generate that length of time spent with me. If you're new here, this is the podcast where we interview the greatest brand builders in the world to find out what that special source is that allowed them to grow and to do what they're going to do. Please hit subscribe. And hopefully this is something that the next time you're puzzled and you're staring into a dashboard of analytics, you have no idea what to do. You actually have a wealth of content from the best people, people in the industry telling you exactly what they did and hopefully you can learn something that can help you in what you're doing. Hello and welcome to Building Brand Advocacy. I am back in the studio with Grace Andrews, who I believe probably doesn't really need much of an intro, but do you want to just give us a tiny little bit of who you are and what you do, Grace? Yeah, absolutely. I am Grace Andrews. I am a creator, entrepreneur. I am ex brand director for Stephen Butler and the Diary of a CEO, which was sort of my world where I learned about all things content and brand and personal brand building and socials and podcasting and all of that world. And since I've left and building my own sort of streams of content to develop audience before I eventually create, build some sort of product. Amazing. Oh, Deez. Well, actually you've been on this podcast before. It looks very different to back then. You were on, I think just at the end of 2023 and we were talking about some of the trends that were going to be happening in 24. And I looked back at this the other day and I want to just read a couple out to you and then just have a quick look at what, what you said. Okay. The first one was the rise of long form content on short form platforms. And you explained that consumers are seeking deeply, highly engaging storytelling that helps them feel connected to the brand or the creator. Then the second one, which I absolutely love, Community on steroids and automated DMs. So community piece needs no explanation. But the DMs we talked about manychat, we talked about stripped back transparency. So advising brands to really share their authentic stories. Longevity and creator partnerships, everyday AI integration and then content based loyalty programs and co creation. They were your top trends for 2024. I mean, I feel like I'm saying the same thing today. Nothing's really, I'm like, oh God, how am I going to push this conversation forward? From that conversation I'm saying pretty much exactly the same. No, but I think it's really interesting because I mean, I was going to say like what out of those quickly, like what do you think's moved forward? Is anything kind of stuck? But what is interesting is that I don't know about you, but say like five years ago, get to January and the trends would seem dramatically like we now need to completely shift everything. Whereas I feel like, I mean obviously even from like a few years ago, the trends aren't changing that much, they're just intensifying. And I think that's what that shows, Right? Yeah. And I think I was probably. What's the word? Rather than predicting the trends. I was more hopeful that that was the direction it was heading in. Yeah. Whereas I feel like now a lot of that has come to fruition. We are seeing the role of long form being so dominant in all of the conversations we're having. Short form being associated with words like fatigue and tired and drained rather than being the thing that everyone is thinking about all the time. I think community is still at the heart of everything. But I don't think it's the buzzword anymore. I think brands understand that they're not just driving views and consumption. They are trying to build something for the long term. Yeah. And community is something that enables that. So I think that's not the buzzword anymore. It's just part of a brand ecosystem. So I think there's definitely been evolution in those sort of hopes and trend moments. But yeah, I agree. I think we're less so obsessed with sort of the short term hacks and wins. It's more about how can I be around for a long time. And so in that sense, in that mindset, we're less obsessed with the fleeting trends because we know they're not going to carry us to that sort of big long term end goal. And I think as well, like brands particularly, and maybe even creators, but different kind of way of doing it. I think they're waking up to the fact that the short term hacks and like the virality, the trending stuff is not. I think they're kind of open now to we will put the, we'll put the graft in. We're happy to put the graft in. It's going to take us a few years, but we know that that's what we have to do. And I think that's been a bit of a shift in mindset for a lot of the brands that are trying to grow because before it was like, we need short, we need to prove we can do this. Right now, I think that's driven by results. Like, I think there was a moment in time, there was this window of opportunity where you could drive insane results through short form content. And that moment has gone. You know, that moment doesn't exist in the same way where it was accessible for the, for the first time in a long time because it was so lo fi and it could be edited on your phone. It, it democratized like that, that moment of success. So any small business, any creator could go viral overnight. That hand in hand with the change in the algorithms on the platform, so the accessibility, but also this shift from a follower base to a discovery based platform means it became sort of this, this heyday for short form. And what happened is because it was so accessible, it became so saturated and so people became so fatigued by it that they're looking for other options. And then sort of we see everything settle down. We know short form is a really important part of strategy, but it's not the be all and end all. It's not going to drive results in the same way it did. You're not going to have that insane viral moment that's going to set out your brand for a year anymore. In the same way, it's not as easy. So people are going, okay, we're going to have to sit back, we're going to have to go back to strategy, we're going to have to go back to sort of building for the long term. Yeah. One thing we didn't talk about back then was employee advocacy. And it's something that we both talk about. A lot. So first thing I want to try and understand is why do you think brands are really missing the whole piece around employee advocacy and what do they need to be doing differently? That's interesting because our first just say like I don't think all brands are missing it. I think there are so many brands who are absolutely leading the way and leading the charge in this space. I think for the last year there have been brands that have been sort of slow to catch up, but now like we're seeing some really cool moments from, from brands and from their employees. I mean, Sheer Lux led the charge, right? Yeah. Sheer Lux had this incredible understanding that if they wanted to generate trust in sort of a dying editorial industry, they were going to have to shake things up. And not only did they lead with their employees, with their, in their social strategy, they developed this incredible sort of talent management system where their employees became creators and they were double ending the deals. So not only would the create were the employees, the in house creators, Sherlocks were able to sort of get cuts on their, on their deals because it's all kept in house and it became an entire new revenue stream for them. So this model that they created, I think a lot of businesses saw and tried to replicate on the surface. So they went, okay, we're going to bring all these employees in. But they hadn't put the groundwork in. They hadn't figured that if we're going to bring employees in, they're going to need separate contracts, they're going to need creator contracts. There's going to be like a legal element to this. What are the parameters, what are the guardrails? And that's what I'm seeing businesses get wrong today. Today is they've misunderstood what it means to have employee generated content. They send. I mean I can't tell you how many businesses they go into and they'll go, oh yeah, our employees post on LinkedIn, we send them a press release and they copy and paste it and hit post. And I'm like, we are so far, so far from what this needs to be. Because ultimately the biggest issue, back to your question that companies faces trust. Trusting your employees to tell their story, their version of the company's story through their own lens with their own voice. Terrifying. Hugely terrifying. You're like releasing every brand guideline document that's ever been created and going do what you need to do, tell your story, tell your version. But when it works, it works so well. And so I mean I've, I've got a program that I've Partnered with Mark, with called Launchpad. And we go into businesses and these are businesses where like, they're your retailers that you know and love through to your startup tech AI companies, through to like legacy businesses who are all going, we understand we need to use our employees. We understand that they need to be a channel. We get it. We are on board. You know, we're doing these pitching calls. We're not pitching anything. They're going, we get it. We buy in. We want to work with you. And we go in and build the infrastructure and the, the training that needs to happen for everyone to be on board. Because the leadership, down to the intern has to understand what's happening here, has to understand how this works and has to understand their role. And I think the problem is, is people have jumped on this trend because they've seen it working so well for other businesses, misunderstanding the foundational work that needs to go in for it to thrive. Because it can, it can get messy and it can go wrong. Yeah. And I think that's probably where I'm seeing most businesses go wrong. I think businesses get it. Like, I honestly, we jump on these calls and I'm like, I'm right. Here we go. Right. Ready to do this pitch. And they're like, no, no, we're bought in, we get it, we want it. We just have no idea how to apply that to our business. And it's really interesting because it's just such a range of businesses and they all get it. Everyone's like, yeah, a hundred percent bought in. When can we start? And we've been inundated. The response blew us away, really, because we thought, let's just give this a go, let's see what happens. That we both understand brand world building, we understand the role employees pay. I was an employee ambassador at my last company, so that's been really fascinating. Do you have a framework in terms of how to get that right balance? Because you're right, it's not about, we'll send you one long piece of content and you kind of just take what you need for LinkedIn. And it's also, there has to be some kind of parameters in terms of we want you to go out there and tell your story in the best way that you can and know how to do. Yeah. I think the framework is going to be different for every single business because there are some startup businesses who are like, free reign, go do what you need to do. If mistakes get made, it doesn't matter because we're making noise and that risk for them far Outweigh, like the reward far outweighs the risk. And then you get an 100-year-old business whose legacy is in, is in the brand. You know, it sits within the brand world. And if we disrupt that brand ecosystem too much people are going to lose trust because it feels like you're sort of, you're shaking it. And people feel uncomfortable with change. So it really depends on the business. And you've got to look at the risk versus the reward. And so absolutely you need parameters. There should be a guide document where everybody can refer to and go, what are the parameters here? What are the limitations? Where can I go? Where can't I? Who do I escalate this to if I don't know who to go to? Who is the person I speak to? Yeah, how do the process, how does the process escalate if something does go out that doesn't feel aligned? Do we just be, do we just have specific people who are dedicated creators within our team? Are they advocates? Are they ambassadors? What role do they play? Just only some people get that sort of reward and license after a certain tenure. Like all of these things have to be taken into account. It's not just a click your fingers. Everyone get posting because also some people don't want to. Some people just want to turn up and go to work. They don't want to have this extra burden of having to communicate everything they're doing every day. And some people don't see it as a burden. So it's like it's this. Every single business is different and you have to look at sort of who your main characters are going to be. Is everyone going to be a character? Has everyone got permission to be a character? Do they have a right to be a character and, and understanding that their story is really important, but they're telling their story through the lens of the brand. And it's not just a free for all share whatever you want. It's, we've got this big product launch happening. What's your version of the story to tell? How do you want to communicate that? What is important to you about that product? And that's how we create this. We don't just go, everyone, post whatever you want and hope for some results. Because also how the hell do you measure that? You know, it's got to be measurable, it's got to be a channel in your strategy and it's got to be treated as such. It's got to have structure, it's got to have strategy, it's got to have guidelines. It Becomes a bit uncomfortable for businesses because they're. They're people who you're relying on at the end of the day. And it's a tricky situation to manage sometimes if you don't lay out the instructions from day one of, like, how does this work? You are, you've been hired to do a certain role. We're now expecting more from you. What hours are going to be swapped for that? What is the. How many hours a week are we allocating to allow for that? Is it a separate creator contract? Like, there's got to be logistics here, because otherwise what happens is you get disgruntled employees and they will leave like that. I've seen it happen over and over again. And then they go, oh, my God, I was so naive. I'm. I'm plastered all over their socials and they've just gained so much more than a transactional employee contract with me. And that's what we go in and do. You know, we go in and go, how does this work for you? Because this can't just be a. Guys, you're expected to post now. Like, people are gonna be like, what the hell? No, I'm, like, here to do my job. So there's so many issues with it, but when it works, it works so well. And that's what gets me so excited. This might be a stupid question, but who owns it? It's a really interesting question because what we found is half the time we're talking to hr. Yeah. Half the time we're talking to the marketing team. Yeah. And I think it depends on the role it's going to play within your business. If it's a marketing channel, like, the CMOs got to own it. It's got to be part of your media mix. It's going to be one of your channels. Is that. And so sorry to interrupt. I'm just thinking as well, if the founder is a key part of this, does the found. How do you manage that relationship with a founder who obviously is like, this is my brand. No one's going to tell me, or do they have to fall in line? It needs to be a fluid, collaborative relationship. I think it's never going to work. If you strategize, plan, create scripts and bring your founder in at the last minute to sit down and read them. I mean, that's what we saw what happened with McDonald's. Right. Like, that's the formula that happened there. Like, that was 100% serious. I know the people at the agency, and that was the game. They were Playing. They wrote a script, they bought the CEO in, and he read the script, and that's what happens. It's not believable. It goes viral for the wrong reasons. It's uncomfortable, it's awkward, it doesn't make sense. And not every CEO or founder needs to be the face of the brand, for sure. But I see founder content and employee content as complementary but separate channels, and they should be treated as such. And I think it depends the role the founder is currently playing in the business. Do they want to just be given a script, like, have that conversation with them? Is there someone who they trust who can build that with them? Or do they want to be part of the, the brainstorming process? They want to be part of the creation and the ideation. Do they want to produce their own content? The problem with founders is they're super, super busy, and if they're left to their own devices, they won't do it. So there has to be sort of like, okay, if we're going to do this, the brand team are going to take on the responsibility of, like, booking the slot, finding the time in your calendar, planning the content, and then what role do you want to play? Do you want to just turn up? Do you want to be part of the ideation process? Like, it's. It's got to be a collaborative conversation in every single business. And rolling, like, okay, after six months, how's this working? Because you're dealing with people at the end of the day, you're not dealing with, like, systems, and it's people with emotions and things change and you have to be able to be fluid with that. You've also got to understand people have bad days at work and they sometimes just don't want to have a camera put in their face, and that's okay. Do you incentivize that? You mentioned about, like, having maybe potentially a separate, like, creator agreement, but do you, in terms of, like, some of the work that you do, is there different incentives that you might put in place for employee advocacy? Yeah, absolutely. Really, really dependent on the business. I think what we always said at the diary of a CEO is you don't want to reward results. So we would never look to reward the posts with the highest engagements or the most impressions. We would reward contribution, so we would reward people for taking part. So the system that I implemented when I was there was we all won together. So if everybody in the program posted or contributed or shared their take or whatever we were trying to achieve that week, we all won together. If one person didn't no one wins. And so everyone would win a lunch or we'd get a lunch from the company or whatever it was. If one person didn't contribute, then no one won. So it was a case of going, we're all in this together. This is like a team effort. No one is better than anyone else. We're all coming in at different points here. Like, someone might have a hundred thousand followers, someone might have one. So rewarding based on results is like really unfair and really disincentive. Like disincentivizing for people who are just getting started. And we're not rewarding for, like, who gets the most likes or it's not a popularity contest. It's a, it's a, it's a muscle building thing. And it's like who is contributing. Because that's what we're rewarding here. We're rewarding people who are going out of their way above of their daily workloads, which doesn't diminish when you introduce employee advocacy or employee programs. And it's going, okay, we, we all contributed this week. Like, we've all did this together. We're a team. As we reward that. Yeah, makes a lot of sense. I want to move on quickly onto content because obviously at Diary of a CEO, you kind of created this content ecosystem. You led the way in that. And you've talked a lot about consistency versus experimentation being like a real key driver of growth. So a couple of things here. Like, I think the first one is like, how do you operationalize experimentation? Because I know a lot more people are doing it, but I think particularly with AI, there is a huge. It's endless, right, in terms of what we can be tapping into. But in terms of how do you operationalize that within a brand to get that balance right between consistency and experimentation? When it comes to experimentation, you need to be experimenting within the mindset or channel of your goals. So there's no point in just running experiments for the sake of experiments. We're running experiments to see how we can edge ourselves closer and closer to the end goal. If the goal is, I don't know, 100,000 followers on Instagram, for example, if we go super simple, every experiment needs to be testing something that we think is going to generate more growth. So the goal is growth. So you need to create a system that allows you, every week or whatever cadence is possible for you and your team be going, what experiments are we running this week that is going to potentially unlock the opportunity to hit 100,000 k. Yeah, 100,000 k 100,000 followers made sense in my head to hit 100,000 followers. So it really is. It's going to be different for every team and every company because it's what volume have you got to operate? Have you got anyone dedicated to this? Probably not. Is it going to be the role within everyone's team to find one experiment they can run every week that they can hold themselves accountable to, that the team can hold themselves accountable for as well? That's going to edge towards this goal. I think the confusing part about experimentation is there is so much to test every single day when it comes to content, literally within a single format or a single post. There are infinite number of ways you can test something, and a test only makes sense if it's repeatable and it's something that you can test over a period of time to see genuine results. Because we know that there are so many different varying factors when it comes to different social platforms that you have to be able to test one factor consistently over a period of time to actually say if it's driving results or not. Because you might have one moment that drives virality and then you. And then you go, oh my God, that was it. And then you run it 10 more times and it's 0, 0,000. And you go, actually, there was something else in that. It was something else. And there are so many varying factors. So, I mean, we were in a really privileged position where we had someone dedicated to overseeing all of these experiments all of the time and going, no, that one doesn't make sense. Or actually, no, there's an anomaly in that. But I think what AI can do is increase the efficiency and support the, the speed at which you're running these experiments. And I think something that people don't realize, I guess, is you don't have to run all of your experiments on your own channels. Like, we had loads of loads and loads of dummy channels that we were testing things constantly on. So you can speed up your rate of experimentation by not relying solely on your brand channels, which freaks people out as well, because they're like, I don't want to run all these experiments on like our brand channel. Like, we have brand colors, we can't change that, or we have a way of doing things. And some people get very romantic about that. So dummy, dummy channels allow you to like, play around and have more flexibility and try new things without the fear of ruining sort of the brand world you've created. So, yeah, I think it's. I think people overthink experimentation. It's really just a case of understanding what you're trying to achieve and looking at things you can tweak repeatedly over time to generate real results as well. That's gonna push you and edge you towards your goal. I also think it's, people want like operations and systems and frameworks. I think it's a mindset thing. I think more than anything, experimentation is a mindset and it's a case of going, how can I keep evolving and keep changing? That means I don't get stagnant and I don't stay safe and comfortable in the position we're in. Even if it's working. It's a mindset to go, okay, they bought me the content plan for this week. What are three things we can change in this to make it different to next week? And it's always just thinking, what can we test? What can we test? What can we test more so than like the rigidity of operationalizing it? Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Who, who else is doing in terms of like this whole big content ecosystem experimenting? Who's doing it really well? Who's a good case study that we should all be paying attention to right now? There's an Australian podcast network called Shameless and they are experimenting like crazy with their formats. They've got this incredible hero show they're introducing new show, new formats, new guests, new social content ideas. And it's, it's, it's, it's not distracting from the brand because people, they're taking on that journey of going, we're going to try new things, we're expanding, we're, we're doing all these, they take you on the journey of it and I, I look at what they're doing across their channels and I think these guys have like got some system set up behind the scenes. Yeah, I'm going to check that out. They're amazing. They're, they're the type of, I mean, it's. So their whole ethos for their lead show is dumb stuff for smart people. Which feels very relevant to me as someone who consumes pop culture trends like every single day. But I consider myself like, not completely stupid. And they just have these like, it's light hearted conversations. But it's like they go so deep on topics about like celebrity and pop culture. And they always go wherever you want them to go. Wherever you think, oh, I wish they're going to take this conversation. I wish where they're going to follow up with the social content. They always go there. They're always one step ahead. They know their consumer and their customers so well. And I think they only can do that because they are having conversations on so many different platforms all at the same time and learning and learning and learning and listening and learning and applying the learnings and you just see this evolution in their content and it's really cool. Yeah, awesome. And then I want to talk about YouTube because obviously YouTube has become quite an integral part of your life now. I would say it's a third party in my relationship currently. And it's great though, because I mean I like we've talked about it, but I even see through your Instagram like they, that audience holds you accountable when that episode doesn't drop at the right time. And how long has that been going for you? I started in September, so I'm about like 30 something episodes in. Yeah, I mean that's such a short space of time to build that kind of deep rooted, like, give me that episode now, Grace. Like, what are you doing? So first of all, like, where does YouTube, where do you think YouTube plays a part in like kind of the traditional marketing mix? It builds depth, it builds loyalty, it builds connection. We were talking before about the sort of parasocial relationship that is generated with YouTube just because of the length of time a viewer is spending with the. The content. So I might have on an average week, an average view duration of 20 minutes. That means on average the viewer of my content is spending 20 minutes with me that week. I would have to produce 200 Instagram Reels more 500 Instagram Reels a week to generate that length of time spent with me. So what, why the sort of depth of relation is depth of relationship is expedited is because what would take five years on Instagram to achieve, you can do in a matter ofweeks on YouTube if you're consistent with long form. And I've been. I always knew because obviously we built the Dara CEO YouTube first. It was always a YouTube first show. I saw the sort of depth that YouTube could generate in terms of like when I headed up the campaigns for product and tours and things like that, I saw the product fly off the shelf because of the depth of audience we'd created. Yeah. And they would convert to anything because like, I genuinely think like whether it was a cap, a tour ticket, a book, whatever it was, as long as it felt associated with the brand, they were going to buy it. And so I felt that and I saw that. But when you do it for yourself, it's a sort of a whole different experience because you feel it. And I Feel the impact. And people spending that much time with you a week is like the same amount they're spending with their friends sometimes. Yeah. And so it's, it's a real honor and a privilege to have that, like, gap in their week and gap in that, in that time that they're committing. And so, yeah, it's by far my smallest platform in terms of subscription. I've got 15,000 subscribers, I think, and I've only been going for about six months. But it's by far, it's. It's become my most important channel. And do you think that brands are treating it like a social channel? I think it's understood to be a social channel. I. The reason I say that is because when I think about like the social bans that are happening in Australia and wanting to be introduced here for like under 16s or kids or whatever, YouTube is included in that, which is kind of crazy to me. Yeah. Because YouTube is like university. YouTube is like the hub of the Internet. I mean, the stats around how many videos are being uploaded a second and how much is being consumed a day is mind blowing. And so it plays a very different role. I think it's. I think it's a section of the Internet. Yeah. I don't think it's a. I don't think it was built with the. Well, it wasn't built with the intention of being a social channel. But what's happened is you kind of get this murkiness when they introduce short shorts. I was going to say, is that what's done that? And I think, I think that that is because people's strategy when it comes to YouTube shorts is to replace, post and repurpose their tick tocks. And so everyone goes, well, if it's on tick tock and it's on YouTube short, they're the same thing. They. They do the same role. So it's interesting. But I. For me, YouTube replaces TV more than it replaces social. Yeah. So my kids don't know what TV is, honestly. They just know YouTube. YouTube. As my eldest, he'll be, he'll be playing a game and he'll be online speaking to his friends and he'll be watching YouTube at the same time, learning how to do different parts of that game and then leading his friends online on how to get past and achieve that level. That's incredible. You've got a little engineer on your hands there or something. But isn't that like. For me, that is so cool that one place can do all of that. Yeah. And I think it does serve community. It, it really does create depth of relationship. And I think the algorithm also sets it apart because it's a click in system, so you're not just being served. Obviously there's discovery pages, you can go and search, you can find stuff, but you have to actively click in. Whereas it's a very active sort of move. Whereas with TikTok or Instagram or whatever, you open up the app and you are served content, it's there, you don't click in, you don't have to make a decision. It's very passive, you're consuming. And that is a dangerous habit. We've all been caught in these scrolls of like, oh my goodness, how do I stop this? Or you close the app, you go to do something, you open the app and you're like, what am I doing? It's like, it's very addictive behavior. Whereas YouTube is. There is more intention behind it and the behavior is different. So I see it sitting in a different position, but I understand that confusion. Yeah, I mean I'm, I'm kind of obsessed right now in terms of like the, the marketing team and the way we're structured and how we're still operating for like a model that's like 10 years, like 10 years out of date. And even just listening to that, I'm like YouTube for if it's in a brand. And it's great to see that more and more brands are utilizing YouTube particularly long form as well. But it's probably sitting in their social teams with people that are social first. Like they've got that social mindset, they're trained, they're skilled in social media. But probably, probably operating YouTube. Yeah. And I think is it. Do we need to completely restructure all of this and really rethink, like if YouTube isn't social, where would it sit? And like, does it need to be that dramatic and revolutionized? Because I'm obsessed with this whole piece. Oh, I think it really depends on the format and what you're producing. I think it's. For me, YouTube needs like video production and a channel manager. And I think where the difference probably is is that you can have channel managers who switch between Instagram and TikTok and maybe LinkedIn these days. But it's very rare that someone could switch between that and YouTube and be an expert in it because the, the data and insight and, and difference in the platform is so vast and so significant. You know, I'm. No you. I've been on YouTube for, I've been building on YouTube. We built the driver CEO on YouTube. I can navigate around YouTube. I love the platform. I am no expert. Yeah. Like the, the metrics are different, the, the, what you're measuring, the insight, the, the way they create content gaps for you to fill, it's a whole different beast. And so I think it's doing disservice almost to have the same person who's doing your Instagram strategy be the one who's rely, you're relying on to deliver on YouTube. I don't think it'. There. Yeah, it's, it's, there's too much to it. Yeah, I agree. And I think it requires its own specialists and I think there's a gap for them. Yeah. And I think there aren't that many really good people at YouTube. So when people do come across them, it's like they can charge a lot and they are in such high demand and so I think there's probably a gap there. Yeah. And for, for brands that are kind of scared of like long term or just a little bit like we, we can't invest in this. What is probably like a, where's the, the low lift barrier for them to, to kind of start making moves on this? I mean vlogging is pretty low effort, like pretty low production, pretty low effort. So in terms of formats, there are loads of ways you can introduce. I mean you could, you could, you can film on a phone in 4K genuinely. Like I film a lot of my YouTube content either on a phone or on my DJ Osmo, which I think it was like a 500 pound investment, 600 pounds. But I'm not investing in like 5,000 pound cameras and I'm not investing in super high tech microphones. It's, it's stuff you can get by with like with a phone. So like equipment wise, don't worry too much. If the format is like, actually we're just going to do a sit down with the founder and they're going to share like three learnings from the week. Like you can start with that. Like it can, it's, it's not ideal, it's not top tier, it's not what I'd be like. If you're going to invest money, go and do that. But if you want to get started and you want to explore the platform, it can start with something like that. It can start with, I don't know, getting. It can be 10 minutes long, it doesn't need to be an hour. You know, long form is sort of anything beyond 2, 3, 4 minutes. So it doesn't need to be this extravagant production. It can be a sit down with the founder and someone discussing like the hardest things they've been through that week or whatever it is. But I think we always see long form as high barrier to entry and can cost as much as you want it to cost. Yeah, I'm going to end with how we kind of started and thinking about. You mentioned that what we talked about with the first time you came on was not necessarily trends, but what you'd hope to see. So in terms of like for the rest of 2026, going into 2027, what would you like to see happen in our space with brands? I want to see creators building businesses in partnership with brands, taking on equity roles, equity positions and partnering and like collaborating with really cool brands to build their own businesses as part of like the brand's ecosystem. I think that's going to be the coolest move creators make. And I think probably something we, I probably something we didn't say in 2023, but is very important in 2026 is is this piece about employees and less so maybe employees, but like employees founder content, like personal branding, like all of this creators, who are your characters going to be like if we see yourself as a media company, what are your seasons? Who are your characters? How are they showing up? Yeah. How are they being supported? How are they being incentivized and how are they being treated beyond employees? Yeah. And that's the conversation I'm having. Like, I mean, that's trying what we're trying to solve, but that's a conversation I'm having all the time. So I think they're probably the things that weren't on my mind then, like the equity role for creators and who the characters are in your story. Grace, this has been such a whistle stop tour into your brain, but a very powerful one and very useful one. So thank you so much for joining us. No worries. Thanks for having me.