AI Is the Biggest Distraction in Sales: Why the Hard Work Is Still Human

00:00:11:00 - 00:00:32:12 Michael Welcome to this ambiguous. I'm your host, Michael Fauscette. Each week, we interview experts in artificial intelligence, generative AI, and business automation to help business leaders understand how to use these tools for the biggest business impact. 00:00:32:14 - 00:00:44:28 Michael Our show today is AI is the biggest distraction in sales while the hard work is still human.

I'm joined by, Doctor Deepak Boucher, founder of Rise Up at Work. Welcome, Deepak. 00:00:45:00 - 00:00:48:07 Deepak Thanks for having me, Michael. My pleasure.

00:00:48:09 - 00:01:14:19 Michael So, just to get us started, you have a really interesting background. I mean, 30 years in sales, sales ops, doctoral degree, studying job satisfaction and organizational commitment to salespeople, ICF coaching certification, lean six Sigma. A lot of deep work around CRM and Cpq pricing at companies like HP. Can you give us just a bit of, your background and then talk a bit about why you founded it and how you found it?

00:01:14:20 - 00:01:16:01 Michael Rise up at work? 00:01:16:04 - 00:01:40:15 Deepak Yeah. So my my story is very long. In fact, there we could do another podcast for five hours, but I've always done jobs that I would honestly argue at the intersection of people and performance.

I really love selling operations, pricing, and systems because they all help me become a better seller. My selling journey started completely by chance, very early, but I also had sales hardcore. 00:01:40:15 - 00:01:57:10 Deepak Michael at age 33. My boss brought me back with a 20% pay increase, and then at age 35, I said, I cannot take this anymore.

It's painful. It's another people tell me that's funny coming from a guy that's so good at mental resilience and telling other people to change it. And so that's how I became good, because I understood my fallibility. 00:01:57:12 - 00:02:14:24 Deepak So there's a certain pattern that I keep seeing happening across.

So I actually ended up being a Sandler trainer. Michael and I became a seller franchisee. And along the way, I actually decided that I want to spend more time also helping with early career, people. Right?

So what I came across was that there's a lot of things that companies do with salespeople. 00:02:14:24 - 00:02:39:23 Deepak They invest in tools, yet people still struggle. You have all these resources to help people. Yes.

People struggle. So the question is, we did automation 30 years ago, robotics and stuff. Now we're doing AI and we are literally dumping people at the same rate that we've been doing for the last ten years in any case. Right.

So you actually realize that the more automation you see, the more see you ultimately realize the core survival skills are going to be back to the human touch, human element to it. 00:02:39:26 - 00:02:57:05 Deepak Now, will we ever go back to a workforce that was a thousand people? Maybe it's 800 now, maybe become 700. I think that shrinkage will happen.

There's also something else happening. New skills need to be developed. The reality is that I don't know how to say this, Michael, but if you dump a thousand, you're not going to hire a thousand to replace those skills, right? 00:02:57:08 - 00:03:12:14 Deepak And you're not hiding from the same bottom of the pyramid.

Now you're hiring PhDs and mathematicians. There's a huge, I would call it the deconstruct of the social construct that's happening, that people thought that they had a bargain with their politicians and stuff, and I think it's all going to be torn apart. But it's fun. That's where my background is.

00:03:12:14 - 00:03:29:18 Deepak So Rise Up comes in because I want to build something that helps 21 to 35 year olds very early in their careers to actually decipher and understand how do you exist in this new world? What skills do you need to have in AI? To be honest, it's not art in person. It's like saying you can't be an accounting bureau calculator.

00:03:29:18 - 00:03:44:03 Deepak My response now is you cannot be a salesperson or a professional white collar. And if you have a LinkedIn profile, you got to be on AI. End of story. And it's got to be part of your DNA.

Now anyone who says they don't like AI artificial is trained on it. I cannot figure out. What does that even mean? 00:03:44:04 - 00:03:48:04 Deepak Do not.

Do you still use abacus? Do you use calculators? Yes or no? 00:03:48:07 - 00:04:08:18 Michael Right, right.

No. I mean, I think, you know, the that's it's had been an interesting time over the last several years, right? I mean, that all the conversation around AI and when we were doing our prep conversation, you said something which I actually used in the title of the episode, but I really like this. AI is the biggest distraction that's ever come across us.

00:04:08:18 - 00:04:28:23 Michael And you know your point about salespeople in particular using AI just for the easy stuff, right? Like here, draft this email for me, for example. Or, you know, they already know how to do it, but they but they, they default to the easy thing. Yeah.

But they're not using it for the hard stuff, you know, self reflection, deal analysis. 00:04:29:00 - 00:04:35:26 Michael Honest. Look at what went wrong. I mean, why is that, do you think.

And what's driving that avoidance? 00:04:35:29 - 00:04:53:28 Deepak It's actually very easy when you think about it. You're going to laugh. AI is seductive because it creates this feeling of massive momentum.

Yeah, I made a video of myself. Oh my gosh, I never looked at a problem this way. So what you're getting is that you're getting visible output, which comes out very quickly, and that inherent cheapness to it. 00:04:53:29 - 00:05:12:11 Deepak They may be running at losses, but you and I being maybe 20 bucks a month to get over deluge of stuff.

Right. And what is reality with human beings is that any medium selling, if you think about it, when you get a buyer, that's overly enthusiastic and overly excited and overly sharing, you confuse that to mean that activity is progress. 00:05:12:11 - 00:05:33:22 Deepak It's not, it's not. And the easiest way that happens then is the same thing comes back.

You want to move your conversation with the customer forward. You use AI and you and I know moving the customer conversation is easy to do, but removing the right conversation with the right context, how do you do that? And that solution that I creates for people, right, tells you how to sharpen your message, I get that. 00:05:33:25 - 00:05:50:15 Deepak But at the end of the day when if everyone is sharpening the message, then will everyone get the time from the buyer?

The answer is no, they won't. So now the difference. The differentiator is going to be that obtuse observation that you put into that message. So people, it's easy to write an email because there's no harm done.

00:05:50:15 - 00:06:11:16 Deepak And in selling, there's one reality, Michael, that I want to call out to everyone on this call. Salespeople have this illusion or are created. They work a thankless job. They are super good at what they do.

They do a noble profession. They solve problems. Therefore they must earn 3X6X what a normal man would earn right now. Ask a person of that mindset.

00:06:11:16 - 00:06:36:29 Deepak Would he ever admit he uses AI in his work and admitted number one? Because the second he says I got better because of AI and my win rate went from 33% to 62%, the company is going to say to him, tell us how they then going to take that. They're going to most likely name the AI agent in honor of him, and then he's going to be sitting at home one day without a job watching that the AI agent take his colleagues jobs also from him. 00:06:37:01 - 00:06:56:19 Deepak That's just a reality.

Anything that you can do that can be quantified will get wiped out. Now the question is what will not get codified like I'm asking salespeople to focus on those nuances. Your survival is going to be using AI as a means to an end. The end is augmented intelligence, which is how do you become sharper by the use of AI.

00:06:56:20 - 00:07:11:15 Deepak That's the argument I use, and I don't want to get into an AGI conversation with you and all that if you want, but I am not. But what I'm saying to people is that I'm exhausted by this, human in the loop process. All I'm saying is that you are the loop. You are the AI is the orbital around you.

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:24:08 Deepak And when you look at it that way, you actually realize that it's not a threat. Use it to your betterment. Use it to your client's betterment without ever losing your dignity and your judgment in the moment. That's it.

That's how I would position it, sir. 00:07:24:10 - 00:07:44:23 Michael Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because obviously there's a lot of fear. I think when I talk to companies, I see this, you know, talk to people about, oh, the, you know, the AI could replace me.

And I guess that kind of plays to what you're saying, that I'll use it for the, for the simple things that are there to automate because they don't involve me. 00:07:44:23 - 00:07:58:12 Michael They don't, you know, they don't take my, my judgment that I, you know, I think is irreplaceable. But I mean, but that's a problem from a sales leader sales management perspective. How do you how do you break that dynamic?

00:07:58:15 - 00:08:16:18 Deepak Look, what you've just highlighted is actually truth. It's real. There is this unspoken tension and no one wants to call out the elephant in the room. And I just did it right.

So look, people do not just adopt rules rationally, right? You can't just tell me that CRM is awesome. Just pick it up. People will ask you what's in it for them, right?

00:08:16:21 - 00:08:40:18 Deepak And it's always about survival and status. So for me, the way that I have leaders working is as follows I want you to improve. I want to improve the strategic work, and I want you to become less defensive about how you go about doing it. What is happening right now is that a lot of salespeople believe that their augmentation to AI is going to lead to redundancy because of the threat I mentioned.

00:08:40:21 - 00:08:57:13 Deepak Now, the question is acknowledge that that is true. Now what do you need to do? This is what I would recommend. They need to do is that, you know, start with the low risk, low value low will be past that.

Great. Right. That then takes away it preserves that mystique around the judgment I get it. Keep it right now comes the bad news.

00:08:57:16 - 00:09:14:22 Deepak If you continue like that, you're actually going to find out that the very same system is now going to everyone is rising, but you're kind of stuck because you're using at the lowest level. So now the question is, what behavior do you think you see lead is going to reward and whether society likes it or not, he is going to reward people going beyond using it in the right places. 00:09:14:22 - 00:09:33:03 Deepak So that's my encouragement to break this dynamics is needed.

Actually need to position AI with the right change management to make it very clear that we are all going to use AI. So for me to claim that I therefore, has given you the aura that it made you successful, therefore I can cut your salary should not be on the table. 00:09:33:06 - 00:09:51:10 Deepak The value that you need to talk about is that we expect you to use AI. We respect you for using AI.

And now the criteria that we judged you are not going to be on not typing speed or your email generation speed, but the fact whether using your judgment, whether you developed the right trust with you, whether your decision quality is improving or not, changing the metrics. 00:09:51:12 - 00:10:15:27 Deepak Right now, a lot of companies tell me as follows. We used to send 12,000 emails per month, but now we send 62,000 e-mails a month. And my question is, did your revenue jump up in that ratio is no.

Why? Because people like you have gone and created a cold email nightmare. There are at least 17 companies that have that are making 10 million IRR per annum for doing cool infrastructure, a system that doesn't gain employment anyone. 00:10:15:27 - 00:10:37:05 Deepak It's a pure automation engine running to scale.

And when you're going to scale, even I look at my own mailbox. It is so bad, Michael, that emails coming from user, I'm most likely going to get disrespected by the system. Yeah. So so it's it's very clear sales managers need to understand this label compression.

We respect that it if we are going to compress labor. 00:10:37:07 - 00:10:53:12 Deepak And in the same way that we used to tell them that, you know, CRM only just this, but no CRM system is a very complex and account full value chain. Same will happen to AI. The focus however, has to be on moving the metrics to not use AI where it corrodes your judgment, but use AI.

Where to chapel the judgment. 00:10:53:12 - 00:11:10:27 Deepak And now my criteria for judging that is going to be the quality of the conversations. Doing survey the customers to actually ask them, is this someone that you trust and would buy from in the future and bring that into the mix? Don't get caught up with how much air is being used, or how many people have a upgraded guides that can be used within an organization.

00:11:10:27 - 00:11:12:03 Deepak That's the easy stuff. 00:11:12:05 - 00:11:35:00 Michael Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's funny, I often think about how much time I waste, and actually I've written an agent that does this for me in the mornings now deletes all those cold outreach emails that, you know, they used to kind of break my heart in a way, because I feel for the salesperson that's involved in this and I'm like, why didn't you just spend five minutes looking at my profile, read my website, you'd know that I didn't need the thing.

00:11:35:00 - 00:11:42:23 Michael I did not have the problem you said I had, and I did not need the thing you were trying to sell me, right? It just. It's frustrating. 00:11:42:26 - 00:12:05:07 Deepak Michael, there's something happening in sales, which, you know, you do mention.

And I just quick aside. Think about it, Michael. You have people making tools that scan the customer's writing style to tell you how to position and then also tell you what is disc style is going to be, I have six customers right now that have used my services to revamp the LinkedIn profile. 00:12:05:10 - 00:12:20:16 Deepak I have written there about me using my English in my words and how it should be read by the receiving.

Now, if you were to run a profile on that, you actually not gonna be able to understand you. Most likely going to pitch to someone who's actually a simple guy. But he sounds direct because I wrote it for him. 00:12:20:19 - 00:12:39:02 Deepak There's a huge question that comes back to the same thing, right?

Yesterday someone told me, you know, the contracts that you sent back are very aggressive, but when you explain it to me and explain it, it sounds reasonable. You sound like a reasonable man. And that's the question I'm giving to people. You're going to send a message, you're going to sound like everyone else.

00:12:39:02 - 00:12:54:19 Deepak You're going to lose. And at the end of the day, same thing, right? As much as you want. But ultimately talking is where you're going to make the difference.

And I have a prediction. And in two years from now, the only salespeople standing are those who talk very well, which is true today. Also, the best salespeople talk very well. 00:12:54:19 - 00:13:10:25 Deepak It's going to be going to go full circle, but we just have to go to this.

This is being the school fees, right, Michael? You have to go to the pain because we really don't know what the end is. For me this is very different, Michael. And when I first saw the TV color TV, the internet, you know, Facebook, I didn't care.

00:13:10:27 - 00:13:32:26 Deepak This time I am actually caring because I'm learning. And when I look at the amount of learning I have done, I'm not learning new languages, Michael. I'm just that I've gone into topics and subjects that I would have never found the time for. Tangents come up.

I can actually have a I'm digressing, but there's so much you can actually do now that sharpens your intuition and go and so on. 00:13:32:29 - 00:14:05:21 Michael Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely I definitely say the same thing and it's it's certainly an interesting time for a lot of reasons. You know, one of the things that kind of comes out when I think about salespeople and I mean, I guess this has been a a problem for as long as I've been involved in, you know, tech and dealing with companies, is that everybody, especially in this kind of wild West time when there aren't a lot of standards for for companies, everybody sort of develops their own little personal catalog or shadow it.

00:14:05:28 - 00:14:27:10 Michael Right? I've got my own little tools, exist outside the company systems, and nobody's really looking at that. And so I'm curious, because you deal with this a lot. I mean, what are the risks and what should companies be thinking about when they think about governance?

You know, they don't want to kill the innovation. And it's, you know, especially with the sales folks. 00:14:27:10 - 00:14:34:25 Michael But at the same time, you've got to have, more control and a more structured way to go at this. 00:14:34:27 - 00:14:54:26 Deepak But it's really interesting with Microsoft, you said that I want to challenge you on if you don't mind me to do that, sir.

You said we've always had an issue with shadow ID. Yes, we did, but it was constrained and it was visible because it was not in the shadows. Now what you have, is it in the shadows because you have this two democratization shadow. 00:14:54:26 - 00:15:07:17 Deepak It was at least visible to 20 people.

Now you have a situation where a person could be watching on his screen over here, his own company's entire, let's call it. My son, who works for Procter and Gamble, used to work for me. I'm going to have a PG chat, and they call it internally, right? Companies don't have that.

00:15:07:17 - 00:15:26:16 Deepak You put in your stuff, you get your queries and all that one on the side. You write in your own little gizmo, your own stuff. So I actually did some research in about, I would say, 2025 is when I actually started seeing a momentous shift in how my rock star salespeople that I was coaching would change. They were getting better at what they were doing that blew my mind.

00:15:26:16 - 00:15:41:27 Deepak Michael, how are they getting that better? It's because they're not relying only on the companies. I what they were doing with that, they built their own stack. The average investment that a salesperson made of those eight that I serve, it will blow your mind, Michael, 300 bucks that they were running per month in their own choice of products and tools.

00:15:42:00 - 00:16:00:27 Deepak They were also hands on, but they were not vibe coding per se. But what they'd done was figure out how to properly figure out how to feed it. Now just imagine shadow it. Every rep has his own personal stack, their bookmarks, props, experiments.

They're running a market. Some of them also don't understand. So I'll give an example of where it fell out of my chair. 00:16:00:27 - 00:16:30:03 Deepak I'm sitting with a customer, Michael, and I find out that he has been feeding his own little ChatGPT competition.

RFP. And I told him, what do you mean? So he said, well, I can't put it on. The fish are in the system, right?

Because it's forbidden, right? You can't. I'm like, okay, what exactly do with that? So he said to me, I then tell it, take this and find a case that matches so that I can send a user case study to my to my customer.

00:16:30:06 - 00:16:43:12 Deepak I said, okay, cool. Can you show me the last case study that you sent to the customer? And he showed them to and asked him, can I ask you a question? Look at these four that you sent.

Are all four written correctly? Read them very carefully. He read them and then suddenly looks up and says, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:16:43:13 - 00:17:04:14 Deepak Half the stuff in this fourth case study is from the competition's material.

It's not what we did. So I said, Tim, did you not read this before turning around? He said, not the daunting hallucinated. I said, they didn't hallucinate.

That's not hallucination. What you just achieved is exactly what it's designed to do. Yeah, you keep throwing shit inside, assuming that there's a beautiful system in the background that is very divine. 00:17:04:14 - 00:17:22:00 Deepak It's not.

It's at the end of the day, it's just taking information, chunking it, trying to make sense of it, and then the end, something will go wrong. In the same way that you get a result that you're going to extend. Well guess what? Ultimately, caveat emptor buyer.

You have to read the stuff you submit. Now can you imagine he wins the deal and the customer says, I want to see this customer as a reference. 00:17:22:05 - 00:17:42:15 Deepak And you realize, this is there's no company called Piedmont Electrical, stuff like that. But the company was correct, but the detailing inside was all wrong.

So for me, shadow, it is pretty simple. And I've always said this guy's inconsistent messaging is number one. Your decisions that you take are also very different. One of the biggest things we have a problem with is that I have five sales reps.

00:17:42:15 - 00:17:59:16 Deepak They all come with five different types of training, five different experiences. When it comes to when your company does not have a system, they all default to what they have learned. Can you imagine walking into a room when you have people trying to discuss a deal? And there are two people speaking Farsi, two people speaking Arabic and one speaking Aramaic and another speaking Hebrew.

00:17:59:16 - 00:18:18:27 Deepak They're all saying the same thing. But, you know, looking at each other, what exactly is going on? Yeah, it's not that bad. It still has bad enough.

You have this thing. And I've always said to people, when you are generating nonsense on the side, which you consider as insight, because you don't have a better lens, you want to keep it to yourself. 00:18:18:27 - 00:18:35:21 Deepak You don't show other people. But when he showed me those case studies and I saw the case study, I called it out to him.

When you're using shadow, I get the opportunity to have colleagues interjecting or guiding you is gone, because you're not going to tell people that you're writing a shadow IT department. Write that down. And a very important thing, which really blew my mind. 00:18:35:22 - 00:18:50:07 Deepak Do you know why people run shadow?

I think this will blow your mind, Michael, because they don't want to lose their edge. And I said, what does that mean? And all eight of them told me as follows. Do you know why I will never share my model or mine in the book?

Because I don't want my colleague to know how good I am at the prompt I do. 00:18:50:10 - 00:19:11:26 Deepak That's number one problem right there, boss. When I do, it creates a class of exclusivity and building of barriers of remember organization learning, right? We had a whole, discussion on this, right?

We used to have a lot of people making millions out of consulting around organizational learning in the history, and then knowledge management and knowledge. Everything goes further. 00:19:11:29 - 00:19:29:25 Deepak You've made such a mess. Strides.

And now we're going back to a reality where you have these databases in isolation. So it's problematic. I'm not saying that we need to crush the innovation, Michael. That's what I'm saying.

We need to channel it. We need to ring fence it. We need to control it. What you don't know will get you at some point.

00:19:29:28 - 00:20:01:10 Michael Yeah. No, I think that's fair too. And it's interesting too, because I mean, you're right, shadow. It by department is very different than shadow it by individual.

Right. I mean I can I can start to think about this like I'm protecting my own IP by using this thing. And yet if I don't use it in a, in a structured governed way, do you put the company at risk for all kinds of different things because of the fact that it is operating completely outside of the norm, outside of the systems? 00:20:01:13 - 00:20:23:08 Deepak Yeah.

And Michael, I think you're you're actually an expert on this. You've written on this extensively. Right? There's also the ethics that come in, right, as to what and what extent.

Now, when I initially got into I, I actually didn't give a toss about the ethical component because I really it's only when I started realizing that I'm passing someone else's work offers mine. 00:20:23:11 - 00:20:41:02 Deepak It's a very basic question that I'm asking this of is that good, bad, ugly? That's when I realized how you prompt, how you extrapolate, how you build upon. Then it gives you the courage to say, this is my thinking.

And I think when I spoke with those eight individuals that were using AI the right way, they were very, very, very vocal on one thing. 00:20:41:04 - 00:20:58:01 Deepak The final output I can vouch for, and I can fight for it from any angle you throw at me, because I know what I've done. The danger is those who take that. What's that word Michael you guys give to the world I love because I actually use AI a lot in my work.

And yes, sometimes you get the pattern right. 00:20:58:04 - 00:21:11:27 Deepak It's not about fear. Full stop. It's about lack of something.

Full stop. Everyone knows this x y construct is a good activity, I get that, I respect that. So there's some things we need to really figure out. So back to you sir.

00:21:12:00 - 00:21:27:08 Michael Yeah. No I mean it's it's it's interesting I said most of the time when I find a problem with something that I sent out and didn't pay enough attention to, it's it's me slop, not I slop. It's me hallucinating. Not not the I.

00:21:27:10 - 00:21:47:09 Deepak I it's it's really. And Michael, you and I both are lacking here. But we have gray in our beards. There's one reality.

You and I know we have had this mantra all time along, which was garbage in, garbage out, and we understood exactly what it meant. If you are going to write. So when I if else then statement in the simple programing stuff. 00:21:47:12 - 00:22:08:06 Deepak If you're in an infinite loop then buddy, you got something that you did wrong.

It was easy to decipher. Now comes along the AI and it takes away those rules and it actually gives it to, in natural language, you having a conversation in the same way that you misunderstand other humans. What makes you think that you will not misunderstand I or I will not misunderstand you because language actually brings complexity and interpretation. 00:22:08:09 - 00:22:28:06 Deepak Zeros and ones and formulas are great.

You at least know where the error is. That's why I've always told people getting 100 in maths is darn easy. I know you can argue what the point is for the effort you put in. Getting 100 in maths is easy if you know exactly the rules.

The rules don't change just because you woke up and you felt that, you know, I feel like I got to drop a bomb somewhere. 00:22:28:06 - 00:22:50:25 Deepak That's not how it works, right? Mathematics means mathematics, right? It's it's the laws don't change.

It's interpretation that changes. That's why you have one book becoming interpreted by 20 people creating 200 sets. And now you have a problem in the world. It's just so up to me this was predictable.

When generative AI goes and makes this slop generation so easy to same slop is generated. 00:22:50:25 - 00:23:08:11 Deepak And what that Michael word, you guys use the same slop is never the same people, because that's just how it works, right? It will always generate it's the same steaming pile of whatever, but it's just different shape, different texture, different flow. And I'm like, oh my God, it's still bad human.

Yeah, we know that. But look how bad it is. 00:23:08:12 - 00:23:11:22 Deepak Different all. But they are different.

You nailed it. Absolutely. 00:23:11:22 - 00:23:42:14 Michael Yeah yeah that's good. Well, you know, we were talking about transformation and you said that your research shows you that 70% of transformation projects have to fail, and that the root cause is often this disconnect between vision at the top and what actually happens at the bottom.

You know, where people are actually doing the work. And and I think what you said was, it's, sticky tape holding three things together that look like a straight line document but not connected in practice. 00:23:42:14 - 00:23:53:02 Michael Right. So, so for organizations that are trying to deploy AI in sales and sales ops, how does that play out?

And then how do you how do you close the gaps? 00:23:53:04 - 00:24:18:05 Deepak Let me let me let me give you a classic example. This would make you laugh, you know. So I go to sales kickoffs and I listen to the awards.

And for its extraordinary effort in ensuring that the customer got this, he actually sat down and worked overnight with the entire team to revitalize the entire pricing strategy. He then did the executive summary 17 times, and he gave it to the customer, a deal that should have lasted six months rent for 17 months. 00:24:18:05 - 00:24:39:21 Deepak Therefore, he's getting the award for salesperson of the year. All I heard was random broken process, figured out that it was broken.

Try to do something different. Found it was broken, was not in sync to the customer's needs, but because the outcome was great, we actually forgot how bad the inputs were. Now take that same mindset in sales and now say that his AI. 00:24:39:24 - 00:24:59:12 Deepak And now we have this entire scenario and I stands up and says, guys, this is what's happening with AI.

And I'm asking people, when I was not around Michael, I had a two third rate failure with AI. I'm predicting it's 80 to 90% failure. Why? Because people are starting off with the wrong basis.

And this is what I'm trying to explain to people. 00:24:59:14 - 00:25:17:13 Deepak Transformation is never about an idea. Transformation is about execution. Transformation is about people adopting the new process and the new outputs that you're generating.

People don't do that. What looks great in a strategy deck is not understood by people. Salespeople have a big phobia. I mean, I have been in I'm a super admin, trained on three different products.

00:25:17:13 - 00:25:35:03 Deepak Why? Because the same company decided to move from one CRM to the other, because licensing costs were easier. I want to ask you a simple question, Michael. If your choice of a product is based on licensing cost and not how salespeople experience it or how it helps you, sales, that tells you that a CRM system will not deliver what it's supposed to deliver, right?

00:25:35:05 - 00:25:56:19 Deepak And that simply means that even sentences will commoditize if I take with this hearing system still the same, take this still the same, take this, still the same. Now that same mindset is now deciding on how to spend on AI. Right now I'm looking at this follows AI adoption is driven by fear of missing out shiny object. I am watching with stunned and I actually told people people are training on replit.

00:25:56:22 - 00:26:14:17 Deepak Then they tell me I'm unlovable. Then I tell them, are you on huggable? This is huggable. I said, yeah, I just have to throw that in just to see some people don't even react to huggable.

No, I'm not an huggable. They don't even realize that I'm making a joke out of it. All I'm trying to say is that you got this plethora of platforms, and people are actually now telling calling projects as follows. 00:26:14:20 - 00:26:31:08 Deepak Guys, I just saw this new feature, cloud.

Cloud has come out with this. Does this are we going to now change your process to and I'm like you allowing a tool pick immediate methodology to define your project definitions. This is going to be interesting. Tell me the problem you want to solve.

And this is what I call scaling stupidity. 00:26:31:10 - 00:26:47:21 Deepak People are actually declaring projects in the AI space on things where the process itself is broken. If today you call 20 people and you only get two meetings out of it, do you really think that by automating the play, I know reaching 60 people is going to take you? Of course it's going to take you from 60 to maybe six people.

00:26:47:21 - 00:26:49:09 Deepak But the ratio didn't change. 00:26:49:11 - 00:26:50:09 Michael Yeah. 00:26:50:12 - 00:27:06:22 Deepak So it's it's those type of things. So when people announced a bold AI vision, what I'm asking them is look at the tools dashboards and ask yourself a simple question.

Will the data come in to make them go green? And how will that data come in? Then you said you realize that guess what? This idea cannot be measured.

00:27:06:25 - 00:27:25:27 Deepak And if you cannot measure an idea, how can you be sure that you are successful with it? That is why people tell me, you know what? We just did this. I think 30% of the time, as in reduced.

Awesome. There's a thing that we say in industry engineering, when you go in and you fix a pipe somewhere and create a pressure point that shifts up, watch it carefully. 00:27:25:27 - 00:27:45:09 Deepak A year or six months later, that point is going to blast open that the ability to use Lean Six Sigma process engineering is actually not because we want to show off, but it's actually to say that every system is interconnected. When I does this little work over here, you've simply shifted.

You've automated a process at this point, but the where the next point, what's going to happen there. 00:27:45:15 - 00:27:52:05 Deepak So that analysis, what I really focused on. So it that's that's how I would answer that question. I hope that helps.

Michael. 00:27:52:06 - 00:28:06:29 Michael Yeah. No, it does it I think in up to this a lot that you you you you can't you can automate a broken process just makes the brokenness faster. That's not really what you were trying to do, right?

You have to know you have to fix the process. 00:28:07:01 - 00:28:29:25 Deepak And make this a question that my ex-boss used to like. And he's is this Frenchman. And he's done multimillion dollar projects.

And we like this question always used to say one thing. Ask the salesperson or anyone that is serving. Will this help you win? And if he hesitates, just hold back and ask yourself what is going on?

When you can't pass that simple litmus test, then you don't do it. 00:28:29:28 - 00:28:46:09 Deepak At the end of the day, what is selling? Selling function is to sell more. And if you are creating a product or a project that is not going to deliver an outcome that is measurable, tangible, and growing above the baseline, then you got a problem right there.

So ask the people that are going to use your tool in your output. 00:28:46:12 - 00:28:53:02 Deepak Will this let them sell better? Will it help you win? And if the answer is the hesitation or no, don't do it.

00:28:53:04 - 00:29:12:15 Michael Yeah. You know, one of the things that strikes me about, about where we are with AI and I mean, I guess you need technology. Adoption really is about getting past the fear and building trust with the tool, whatever that might be. Right?

That I, as a user am going to get this outcome, this better outcome that I'm expecting. 00:29:12:18 - 00:29:32:24 Michael But part of AI has been implemented. And you see this, you know, in a lot of the systems that we use it, it's a it's a black box, right. So it's hard to know that we it's hard to build that trust because it's hard to understand what's really happening.

I mean, if they lose, you know, if you lose an Azure sales guy, you lose. 00:29:33:01 - 00:29:51:12 Michael It's always something that's not you. That was the problem. And if it's a black box there, that's probably going to be my problem right?

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you get past that? I mean how do you make it more transparent.

And just because it's a really sophisticated black box, I mean, that doesn't really solve your problem. 00:29:51:15 - 00:30:11:23 Deepak So to people tell me debug to make a block black box, let's have a black box. Mixed means it lets it destructible. It makes it destructible which means that if an aircraft fail, then the box is going to be shattered.

So what? And I'm like, stop with the metaphors. When you talk about Black Box, we are actually talking about what is essentially a trust problem. 00:30:11:23 - 00:30:40:21 Deepak Michael.

Full stop. Yeah. Sellers don't just need an answer, right? They need to.

And when I say said, I'm talking about us. Me, the selling guy, the salesperson. Right is a rational that they need to understand and then defend with the customer. Now when you create black box methodologies, because that's what my background is, predictive analytics, where the computation is so advanced that even I didn't understand the math, but I'm being asked, trust me, this number is the number that will maximize your efficiency to win.

00:30:40:24 - 00:30:57:04 Deepak Okay, now I look at my numbers and I'm like, I don't think I want the deal. Oh well, that's your problem because you brought some subjective thing into maybe you were in a bad mood, maybe you didn't do this. This becomes problematic. So I realized one thing that when salespeople see a black box, they define it very simple.

00:30:57:04 - 00:31:16:01 Deepak It's something they don't understand because it's not been explained to them. It's something they don't trust because they don't know how it helps them. What is what is it for me? What's in it for me that is never answered?

That's a big problem. So we have a model that now says this is the right place. Sellers always ask me simple question, how do I know that? 00:31:16:04 - 00:31:31:00 Deepak And I think we are now on to something very interesting.

We now into generative AI. Now what you can do with generative AI say, hey, I've got this very sophisticated output which is a black box. I don't understand it. I've got this number.

Could you explain to me? Because no manager can explain it themselves, but I can actually simplify it. 00:31:31:06 - 00:31:48:00 Deepak So on one hand I argue about the black box nature of stuff, but I'm also telling you, the very same person that gave us this can also demystified. And that was the biggest benefit I saw from AI.

What you now have is a generative AI can now actually allow you to understand I have a number. Give me the genesis of the number. 00:31:48:00 - 00:32:05:09 Deepak You can also tell it. Can you allow me to visualize this number that you're giving me compared to my last 25 deals?

And let me understand that better. Now, do you see what's happening over here? You're now self coaching yourself. Previously, that activity would be in the form of a training module or a group of people explaining why the price is right and they themselves don't know why the price is right now.

00:32:05:09 - 00:32:24:24 Deepak We still don't know why the price is right, but we now have a better grasp of where it came from. I've always said this to people. People are not a problem, is not change. People are okay with change.

People don't like uncertainty. So when you introduce I introduce predictive analytics, people actually don't mind that the problem they have the uncertainty of where and how did you get this number? 00:32:24:24 - 00:32:40:09 Deepak Why should I trust it? And then the data doesn't show you that it can be trusted, but you still telling them trust it because every quarter we refresh the data on it or the system learns from mistakes.

Yeah, sure. So can you imagine the mother says, this hospital had had seven kids that fell at birth and died. 00:32:40:11 - 00:33:00:14 Deepak And the hospital says, what? What do you guys?

We have a process. We're learning from it. So we won't have this much fatalities in the future. You got to ask, is it?

Wow. That's the seriousness at which I talk about now. At the same time, for the first time in my career, I actually have a glimmer of hope because I really believe that the ability for an AI to, in the right interface, translate complex models, and that output in human reasoning. 00:33:00:14 - 00:33:20:05 Deepak Yes.

Now I'm going to speak to sellers language at his pace, at his convenience, when he wants to hear it. Otherwise, you got to wait for humanity and not at your own pace. You can figure it out. And the trade offs.

Old days. We were very bad at explaining the trade offs. If you use this price and if you do this, this may or may not happen. 00:33:20:07 - 00:33:37:00 Deepak Now it clicks.

We can have a coin. You can actually have a great conversation. We can explain those trade offs in language. The sales people understand Michael.

That's very important. And I realize one thing. If a sales rep is actually educated enough to position a price and given the confidence in the price, do you know what he does? 00:33:37:02 - 00:33:57:00 Deepak He fights for that price with the buyer, right?

Right. Now when you give someone a black box, it's human nature. One of the first things we tell people is that in sales, it's about mindset. Your behavior attitude and your technique technique will not usually fail you.

What fails is your mindset. In the moment you walk in and the customer says, I don't like your price. 00:33:57:00 - 00:34:10:27 Deepak Is ridiculously high and your first response is okay, okay, so what's your budget? And he says, my budget is and he gives you a number that he knows he's playing the math with you.

And then you say to him, oh, I can go get approval for that. 00:34:10:29 - 00:34:35:18 Deepak And you win the deal. People are celebrating that win. But you got to ask yourself, how much money did you leave on the table?

So that's that's how I would answer that. You know, at the end of the day, I really believe Virginia, you got more transparency. You'd have a better way of understanding. So I would recommend to people that if you are creating black box methodologies, then at least click create a layer that allows people to demystify the black box by using AI to their advantage to understand the output of the very same AI.

00:34:35:21 - 00:34:56:20 Deepak That's powerful. Why did you write what you wrote? ChatGPT is a favorite question of mine. What were you thinking?

What is an unorthodox argument that one could make against our price position that you've just adopted that pushes the envelope so I would use the same logic here, he ChatGPT the system gave me this pricing. I don't believe this pricing is correct because I look at the past data. 00:34:56:20 - 00:35:19:00 Deepak None of the winning price was that number. Why do you think this price will win?

Now let me tell you. Now you debate with it. And there's another thing. You know, the Kanban process where even a production guy can pull a string and stop the intent plant.

I have a feeling that if we don't give salespeople the ability to actually question, question, question and then say I'm still deeply offended or don't understand, stop the press, go back to the table. 00:35:19:00 - 00:35:38:19 Deepak We don't do that often because we consider salespeople to be they don't have a PhD in mathematics history, but they don't understand a whole lot. But they do have a PhD in life knocks. They don't they know know a good argument when they hear one.

And you cannot argue that because someone has, you know, because let's put it this way, the sun always rises from the east is established. 00:35:38:19 - 00:35:46:25 Deepak In fact, I don't think is going to pop up in the West one day because it's not a black swan event. That's something different. So that's one of those things.

Sorry, Michael. 00:35:46:27 - 00:35:47:26 Michael No, no, no it's good I. 00:35:47:29 - 00:35:48:25 Deepak Cuz I. 00:35:48:27 - 00:36:01:08 Michael Know, I think, you know, if you think about change management and in general, I always felt like, that, that the thing that people push back the hardest on is, is the fact that things are being done to them, not with them.

00:36:01:10 - 00:36:06:03 Deepak Right. Bingo on Fisher slogan. Right there was right there. 00:36:06:06 - 00:36:27:07 Michael Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Well, so let's shift gears a little bit. Talk a little bit about rise up at work because I you know, one of the things I think is really interesting here is this idea of trying to help this generation that, you know, coming out of school, they can't afford to, to a coach, they can't afford self reflection. 00:36:27:07 - 00:36:38:27 Michael And, and, you know, getting the right frameworks and all that. So most career solutions, they focus on trying to get you hired, but they don't really focus on how do you do the job, how do you build.

00:36:38:27 - 00:36:40:17 Deepak Yeah. How do you flourish. Yeah. 00:36:40:21 - 00:36:45:21 Michael So so talk a little bit about what you've seen the rise up at work and what you're trying to do.

00:36:45:23 - 00:37:20:07 Deepak So I've been a coach and in my coaching journey I have cost 1500 people. Now people say, well, I'm like, yeah, because I'm old and I've been at it for a very long time. So please, it's one of those things. So the reality is that the first core insight that hit me was we have this entire system, Michael, that is designed to take a lot of money from you, put you through high school, put you through college, and you now have a degree behind your name and your life's entire agenda for 90% of people going to college, because 10% might have entrepreneurial, expertise and they want to do something different.

00:37:20:10 - 00:37:33:23 Deepak But 90% of the guys go in knowing very upfront that I'm going to get a degree, that I'm going to get a job. Now the fun part starts. They go to classes, they have a syllabus, they have books prescribed to them. They have a teaching assistant that they tell me that college was the hardest time of my life.

00:37:33:23 - 00:37:55:04 Deepak I'm like, no, wait till you get to your desk. Sit down. You call your mom. Mom, I made it, mom, I'm looking around.

I'm surrounded by smart people, I made it, my mom is very happy. Two months later, you're calling me mom. I don't understand. I got my salary in something called taxes.

Hit me. Ma. Wow. Well, I just realized that my boss never has time for me because I can't find him.

00:37:55:04 - 00:38:11:27 Deepak He's always in meetings with the other people in managers. I didn't realize that I'd have to be. I would be one of 20 people to point to a manager. Suddenly he says, hey, wait a minute, I just got promoted.

But how did I get promoted? I thought I was working harder than Peter. Now what you have is this perfect storm. 00:38:12:00 - 00:38:28:13 Deepak So now he goes to his manager and his manager system.

This is what I need from you, ABCd. He comes back and realizes he doesn't know how to respond to that. This is what managers have told me. Great idea.

And then he takes it and runs with it and gives it to someone else. I'm like, I did not sell my ability to do the work. 00:38:28:20 - 00:38:42:22 Deepak He didn't see it, so he gave it to someone that has sold his ability. What will you do about it now?

Boy, that's so as I was working through actually, I also realized one more very important thing, and this is very personal to me when I say this to my uncle, which is 21 years old, are typically broke. 00:38:42:25 - 00:38:58:09 Deepak They have they they love where they are in life, but they don't know what to do with it. Now you need to speak to someone and that person says to them, I'm absolutely I'm a coach. I'm an exact coach.

I'll help you become a leader. I'll help you solve your problems. My billable rate is 200, and the recommended ten hour package. 00:38:58:11 - 00:39:20:05 Deepak The guy sitting there thinking $2,000.

I don't have $2,000. So then he goes to a friend who is as bad as he is in terms of his own ambition and understanding. Right. So you now have this entire ecosystem.

There is the scaffolding has ended. You look around you and you see a building and you see a website and you see one 800, call me, I'll help you the benefits line. 00:39:20:07 - 00:39:41:14 Deepak But there's no structure. And what you really need is you need structure.

You also need someone to help you with reflection. One of the things that I've always tell people is that amount of wattage that we do not use, because we are not coached to think critically is bad. What if I were to ask you that I want to give you a tool or a technique, and that's what rises up is about all I'm trying to do is that I'm building something that is finally catching up with reality. 00:39:41:16 - 00:40:02:21 Deepak We're going to start with diagnostics, reflection, interviews, coaching, and then cohorts.

Why cohorts? Because at age 21, these people are far more social than you and I are. Michael, you and I like to go to these highfalutin meetings because you want to meet people that we can sell to. We write books to anyone.

You don't write books. 21 year olds will actually hang around with like minded people. 00:40:02:21 - 00:40:19:09 Deepak They might go to a special interest group. Guys, the sales community of Sao Paulo is meeting in this cafe for 20 minutes.

Come in, network with us. They do that stuff. They sit there, they see other successful people actually come back frustrated because they can't figure out this is a true story. This is my son.

He's doing his MBA at NYU. 00:40:19:11 - 00:40:37:09 Deepak Michael, he just went to an event and he came back and said to me, dad, I look at all these kids around me doing startups. And I said to him, but you're also working with me on my startup. He said, yeah, this is what I did.

You tell them proudly that you work in the startup, and then you had this look on his face. 00:40:37:11 - 00:40:57:06 Deepak What is happening is that you're so attuned to listening to other people's greatness. We sometimes forget our own greatness. And I'm trying to tell people, stop this.

The compassion that you show to others, if we could show it to ourselves, maybe self-reflection is so powerful. You know, I used to hate it when people said, put the mask on your face and then help your granny, then help your mom, then help the child. 00:40:57:09 - 00:41:19:02 Deepak I used to think that's such a stupid thing to do. But you know what?

It makes a lot of sense. Self help, self. You know, assistance is very critical. Michael and I say this as someone who struggled with his own mental health, sought external help during Covid, do a year and a half out of social touchy feely vibes, working with people not constantly on zoom.

00:41:19:05 - 00:41:34:03 Deepak In fact, I would argue today we accept 6 a.m. 6 p.m.

calls because of Covid. It actually made us so attuned to taking a call because we were desperate for social interaction. But that's not social interaction. I would love to be sitting next to you and having a cup of coffee and having a conversation.

Michael, and then we high-five each other at a great point. 00:41:34:06 - 00:41:54:14 Deepak That is the tactile fun that I would like to get into. So for me, what Rise Up is doing is simply acknowledging that today I had a point where it's actually going to allow us to understand the long longitudinal abilities that you develop over time. Can you imagine that your innermost thoughts are understood by someone you are talking on a cohort?

00:41:54:14 - 00:42:11:24 Deepak The cohort messaging is there. You are looking at courses and guidelines are also part of it. At any point you can stop and say, I'm very confused. What's the difference between self-doubt and imposter syndrome?

And you told that answer immediately. You come back and you go in a form and inform someone, right? Hey guys, I applied for a promotion. 00:42:11:25 - 00:42:31:09 Deepak Eight of us applied, only one got approved, and the guy that got approved, he had the worst score of all.

What happened here? And people tell their stories now. Can you imagine? Take all of that and help people.

The answer is what I'm trying to achieve is very simple. In one's career, you get maybe five inflection points, which will make you great at the end of the 30 year journey. 00:42:31:12 - 00:43:00:18 Deepak If you get those five inflection points correct in terms of the right job at the right time, the right promotion at the right time, the right price negotiation, or you choosing to leave your organization to take a bigger job somewhere else. This push pull type of dynamics is also where we have frameworks.

Now, if I can help you take the right five judgment calls over 30 years, those judgment calls to delivered to you on average, and we do some simple mathematical you will be it'll blow your mind 37% more networth people tell me 37% for all that effort. 00:43:00:18 - 00:43:19:13 Deepak What? All that effort. You were thrashing around, buddy.

One of my investors actually said a question that I'm going to close on and then hand it back to Michael. He said to me, my daughter is very smart. She works for a law firm. She doesn't need your services.

I said, that's cool. Ask her a simple question. Where does she see guidance from? 00:43:19:13 - 00:43:42:23 Deepak Is she going online to read blogs?

Is she speaking to colleagues? Is she calling a friend? At 10:00? You suddenly realize everyone needs guidance.

It's the same principle, right? Everyone uses AI, but no one wants to tell anyone because they want to make sure they sound smart, not acknowledge that I help them. Same principle applies in life. So the biggest bugbear that I have is convincing extremely ambitious individuals to understand that they do need some help structured.

00:43:42:26 - 00:43:58:19 Deepak And people are telling me, well, is this therapy? I'm like, no, what makes you think this is therapy? What I can tell you one benefit, you get some of those decisions done the right way very early in life, because the first five years are formative in any juncture. Your economic output at the end of 30 years actually depends on the first ten years.

00:43:58:19 - 00:44:15:01 Deepak People miss that. Yeah. The reality is that I made the most money in my career. In fact, I was laughing when I said I did the math in the last ten years of my corporate career, I made three x more than I made accumulative over.

But that makes sense, doesn't it, Michael? Because you're supposed to. Now the question is deeper. 00:44:15:02 - 00:44:28:26 Deepak How did you do that?

Because I took the right decision at the right time upfront. So that greatness, you get a 7% increase, you get a 12% increase. Add it all up. Those delta count, a couple of apartments that you can put aside, my friend.

That's how I explain it might come back to you. So sorry I went. 00:44:28:26 - 00:44:56:15 Michael Oh no no no that's good I it, it certainly I think resonates. And you know I was thinking about this too.

We, we, we talked so much about the arms race in AI. Right. I mean companies have to have it. They're, they're implementing they're doing all these different system changes and things.

And yet underneath that, when we think about the people, we've created a situation that really does create a ton of anxiety, a lot of fear. 00:44:56:18 - 00:45:20:16 Michael And it, you know, strikes me you've spent your career studying, you know, what makes salespeople thrive? Not, you know, not just perform, but thrive. Right?

So, looking ahead, I mean, what do you think the relationship between humans and AI and sales is going to look like in a year or 2 or 3? That's hard in AI terms, because, you know, as we know that things are moving very quickly. 00:45:20:23 - 00:45:28:06 Michael But what skills should people be investing in now that can really help them be on the right side of this change? 00:45:28:08 - 00:45:54:29 Deepak You know what, Michael?

This is going to make you weep when I say this to you. I predict sales will be more human in the future, because right now, what is happening is that we need to figure out how our humanity has to change with AI. But your humanness is going to change. But it still remains human.

You will actually become more articulate, more concise, more precise, because a lot of the other stuff has been picked up by AI. 00:45:55:00 - 00:46:11:10 Deepak That's how I look at it now. Today, you know how we get frustrated and call with an AI? Get me an agent.

I'm sorry, I didn't understand that or some other nonsense. Right? And there'll be a time where I predict in the next two years you're going to get an option. Would you like to speak to a human?

00:46:11:12 - 00:46:36:15 Deepak There will be an extra $20 charge. Many people may actually select that because they're getting exhausted and tired. And I've always said this. Look, I love it.

It has taken a lot of repetitive analytical work off the table. Awesome. Why? Because I don't want to build my client $100 $200 in $2 an hour for having to take his information and put it into a spreadsheet and create a graph to understand what's going on when I can.

00:46:36:15 - 00:46:50:11 Deepak I mean, I'm on a conversation with you right now. I'm one of the client. My transcript is automated. I don't even have to worry about it.

It gets into a Google doc from Google Doc. An agent picks it up, takes it and passes it and synthesizes it. Then there's another agent that says, thank you very much, by the way. 00:46:50:11 - 00:47:07:08 Deepak There's another transcript with the same client that happened two weeks ago.

It does the Delta analysis. What changed? What's not happening then? All these little bits at the end go and give me a playbook that I have for each client.

And it actually optimizes the playbook to reflect the changes in the conversation going on. No. Yeah. If am I going to gloat on that?

00:47:07:08 - 00:47:24:23 Deepak I cannot, because that's now the lowest denominator. If I, as a coach can do it, I guarantee every coach is going to get to that very fast, very soon. So what keeps me distinctive is the fact that I take that information, and in that conversation with the customer, I make his life seem so different at that particular moment. 00:47:24:26 - 00:47:45:25 Deepak He doesn't pay me for getting these playbooks of all this efficiency.

He pays me for bringing meaning to his life by me. Having learned from all that work that's happened in the background. So all I can tell you is right now is that I am absolutely convinced that trust building with matter, more judgment will matter more, because those who are going to learn from AI the wrong way are going to lose that edge. 00:47:45:27 - 00:48:01:24 Deepak Judgment is a huge trust.

Building is massive. There is no customer that I am aware of. Who would ever forget breaking bread with you? Many buyers don't want to break bread with you and get them, but many buyers will not give you a check if they doubt your character or they doubt that your company can deliver what needs to be.

00:48:01:27 - 00:48:20:12 Deepak There's no one who can do that unless there's some underhand nonsense going on. I have personally disengaged from people on that process. Right. So I you need to challenge the outputs that come on from I.

Please stop taking AI output just because you haven't seen things written like that or the volume of stuff. Don't get excited about it. 00:48:20:12 - 00:48:39:08 Deepak Right. It's there's this joke that we have in India about American English.

We say we love American politicians. They stand up and speak for an hour with this immense elocution, which amazing words. Now we stand back and say, so what do you want me to do about it? You realize there's nothing we can do about it because it was all lofty and powerful, but there's nothing you can do about it.

00:48:39:10 - 00:48:58:09 Deepak That's the catch we are right now getting synthesized speeches from humanity, done over the last 5000 years that some system has learned, of course, is going to give you stuff that is very powerful because you haven't read 5000 books, but it has. Yeah, it's going to find those 5000 words are going to blow you apart. And now you suddenly saying, oh, come on. 00:48:58:09 - 00:49:07:18 Deepak I mean, in fact, I don't know how to say this to you, but I'm very sure you take the Constitution.

And someone actually told me someone's done that and run it through. I will argue that that's also fake. 00:49:07:20 - 00:49:10:17 Michael That's so problematic. 00:49:10:19 - 00:49:38:20 Deepak The generic sellers doing generic work are going to be the next geriatrics on the planet.

Sorry about the generic geriatric play on words there. Yeah, those who do not use AI will lose their jobs to people using AI. That's another warning I can give you right now. Yeah, sellers who are not optimizing to what the buyer wants, justification, value analysis and then pricing for those will lose out big time.

00:49:38:27 - 00:50:00:16 Deepak Use AI to become better at the moment. Ask for scenarios. It's not objection handling, objection handling anyone can do. I can go to Barnes Noble and I'm going to book that says 20 Ways to Break a price.

Objection. Awesome. But guess what? Most rock star salespeople have learned from those books, but they deploy from instinct, gut, and that radar sense spidey tingling.

00:50:00:16 - 00:50:06:00 Deepak Something is going on. You turn around and this octopus about to kill you or something, right? One of those things. 00:50:06:02 - 00:50:26:18 Michael So I know that's good.

Well, so before I let you go, so obviously great conversation and I really appreciate it. And I know the audience going to value this, but but I always like to ask at the end for you to recommend somebody that the audience could learn from author, podcaster, you know, whatever, whatever you think would be valuable. 00:50:26:18 - 00:50:28:19 Michael So so what would you recommend? 00:50:28:19 - 00:50:51:18 Deepak To be honest, the the two people that come to mind right now.

Right. And both are actually LinkedIn top voices in sales. And I've actually brought both onto my own podcast because and that's why I'm recommending because I think that one of them is actually running is the CEO of a sales table, Suresh Vasu. So this is also, multiple exits.

00:50:51:18 - 00:51:09:03 Deepak He's also got a venture studio. And full disclosure, he's also the lead investor in my own startup. Right. But I went to Suraj not because he is a technocrat or he has access to money.

No, no, I went to Suresh because he's a darn good human being, is very keen to understand what AI is going to do to salespeople. 00:51:09:03 - 00:51:30:27 Deepak And he's building a product. I would say that you will have a great conversation with someone like that, Michael. Then there's then there's Mark Finnick.

That's another name I can throw at you from sales. He's focused actually on deals and how to make deals and how to win deals. And you can ask him, what's I doing there? And you'll be shocked to learn that his entire motivation is actually understanding what the customer wants.

00:51:30:29 - 00:51:49:03 Deepak The eyes on your tool to shape your output for the customer, but the core idea must come from you, and that comes from guidance, structure, and so on. And lastly, for someone I think you know, Ethan Malik, I just love the way he writes. Yeah, he's just an outlier. So if I could just for someone from a pure AI point of view, I would say Ethan Malik.

00:51:49:10 - 00:52:06:07 Deepak But if I would forth from pure sales lens point of view. So I would talk about, Mark Finnick and swish metaverse. These are two good human beings. I have both on my podcast.

In fact, they are invited to my new TV show that's coming out also, Michael, because it just it just makes so much sense. 00:52:06:07 - 00:52:08:15 Deepak And of course, coming from sales, I go to bias, right? 00:52:08:18 - 00:52:16:03 Michael Yeah. Well, absolutely.

Well Deepak, thanks so much for joining today. Really really interesting conversation. 00:52:16:06 - 00:52:18:12 Deepak My pleasure. Thank you very much for having me, Michael.

00:52:18:15 - 00:52:21:03 Michael Thanks. 00:52:21:06 - 00:52:45:02 Michael And that's our show for this week. Thank you all for joining us. Remember to like, share and subscribe to the show.

If you enjoy the show, please leave us some review to help others find us. For more research on AI and other software, check out arionresearch.com. If you're an expert in AI, generative AI, or business automation, either as a provider or an end user, email your information to disambiguation at arionresearch.

com. 00:52:45:04 - 00:52:53:06 Michael Don't forget to join us next week! Disambiguation is an Arion research production. I'm Michael Fauscette, And this is the Disambiguation podcast.