Decoding AQ with Ross Thornley Feat. Lisa Hammond - Chief Human Resources Officer at Veradigm

Speaker A: Hi and welcome to Decoding aq. Helping you to learn the tools, mindsets and actions to thrive in an ever changing world.

Speaker B: Hi and welcome to my first episode recording of 2025 and I'm delighted to welcome Lisa Hammond. She is the Chief Human Resource Officer at veridigm. Ah, I hope I pronounced that correctly.

Speaker C: Ah.

Speaker B: And she's a visionary leader with over two decades of experience in HR and organizational strategy. She's had key roles at Blockbusters, Samsung and many hospitality giants with this rich history of driving transformative change in dynamic environments from leading M and A initiatives to fostering leadership development and optimizing talent acquisition strategies. So she has a passion for creating people centered organizations and anchoring her work as a coach, advisor and executive leader. So welcome to the show Lisa.

Speaker C: Uh, thank you so much Ross for the opportunity. Happy New Year. I hope you had a wonderful New Year's Day yesterday.

Speaker B: Well, yesterday in fact it was pouring with rain so I decided I did the dog walk, uh, and Karen, my uh, wife took down the Christmas uh, decorations uh, yesterday. So we're all sorted and ready for the new year.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, how, how about you? How was your uh, closing out to 24?

Speaker C: It was, it was great. And yesterday was spent outside here in, in North Carolina where it was a lovely crisp day, um, with some winter tennis, dog walking like you. And uh, I'm 55% done with D. Holiday, um, de. Holidaying the house. So uh, I'm a day behind you.

Speaker B: Well, we were the uh, for the first time in. We've been together 20 years and we normally are the last to get uh, the Christmas tree. You know, we get the last one from the garden center. We had it uh, on the 1st of December. I don't know what was going on last year, but we were, we were on it. We were on it.

Speaker C: We're exceeding your own expectations, right? You'll remember that.

Speaker B: Who knows? So where I'd like to start off is perhaps rewinding the clock and understanding perhaps how you might connect your own dots in the journey that took you from a uh, a degree in criminal justice and political science into the HR world. Connect some dots for me, Lisa.

Speaker C: I, I will. And I um, you know, my colleagues joke I can be unfiltered. So you get the unfiltered version um, because it's somewhat relatable to people that maybe don't exactly know where their path is in life, um, at the beginning. And um, I, I went to college. I, Yes, I did all the things and career, you know, all the, all the stuff. And I met someone at the end of, of college and I, you know, decided to follow them, uh, for a bit instead of pursuing law school, which my parents were exceedingly thrilled with all those choices, as you can imagine. And, um, you know, that all didn't work out that well. But I was in retail at the time, part time, while I was going, um, to like, a graduate certificate program. And I had worked in restaurants since I was. I had a work permit at 15 and had worked in restaurants. And so I loved, I loved the engagement and the sale and all the pieces. And so I pursued that and then parallel moved to another city where I got a job as a legal assistant and learned quite a bit about workers compensation law. Uh, and then a really amazing defense firm, um, called Littler. We used to be Littler Mendelssohn, and they're global. And I worked for them for a number of years as paralegal, uh, did mostly Title VII and OSHA cases and sort of sat up one day and said, what the heck? This is horrible. You know, these employers that we defend are spending all this money. What, what, what would it look like to be over there on the other side of the fence? And so I got this amazing, amazing job as a HR director with zero experience at a dot com, because that's when it was. And that lasted four whole exciting and terrifying months, uh, when there were some nefarious and unfortunate things happening to money and I really needed to get a new job very fast and landed a Pizza Hut. Uh, and the path was just kind of there and it was cloudy for years and amazing and awesome. And I, you know, I had some jumps because I wasn't afraid to take a couple risks. And I thought, uh, a lot of people would. I would get hired and the company would sell or reorg or merge or get acquired or something. And then my old bosses would call me back. So it's kind of a series of where I was sort of working for the same group of people for a number of years in different companies. And that's really how it happened. I landed in HR sort of happenstance, out of a desire to maybe figure out why people spent so much on labor attorneys when things went bad. And now I know that that's inevitable and it's okay. And it does not mean anything's wrong with your company or your labor practices. It's just, that's the nature of the beast now. That's. So that's how it happened for me. And I worked, um, actually a couple jobs in Retail during the time I was paralegal as well to make extra. I was single and trying to build a, a life and um, it, it was awesome. And I've, I landed a couple key roles later on. Um, Samsung was probably a big catapult for me getting uh, to uh, a VP role at a family restaurant business and then moving to Veradigm, which has just been amazing.

Speaker B: And you've uh, expressed before about how perhaps some of that grounding in hospitality has shaped some of your thinking, shaped some of the way in which you focus on a role in hr, in leadership, in supporting people. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Speaker C: It's so key. It's interesting. There's kind of two facets too. One is that when you're in a retail or restaurant environment, um, you know many people think of it as transactional. You're just creating a transaction. I want a beer, you give me a beer. I, you know, I tip you. We move on with our lives and uh, the next day somebody else serves me a beer, vice versa. And really that experience is, is not so much about that. Uh, it's about building relationships and you're doing it transactionally. Maybe it's the easy way to think about it, but it's the same thing in hr. We're building relationships every day. We're building places where people want to invest. Right. Whether you're in retail and you've created a relationship that makes them come back and buy from your brand or your store or you're doing it as a coach, advisor, even an employee relations. Sometimes you are building what may be a bad situation for an employee if they're treated with respect and with that servant leadership mentality. Even if they're in the wrong, it's an opportunity for them to learn and grow and it builds a relationship for them to come back. And you know, it's really um, the people that live and breathe hospitality in their life and in their careers are really different breed. The tolerance level for what other humans do to each other, to you in that role is, is eye opening. The um, the types of infractions that happen in those four walls environments are very different to maybe a stereotypical white collar environment. And it really as a, as an HR person, uh, and I've been lucky enough to have operations roles and other support roles as well. It makes you much more aware, uh, and tuned in to be able to handle things that maybe mushroom bigger than you expected. You just sort of have this um, understand a little bit different understanding of human nature and how Things transpire and then what is truly catastrophic, Right? What, what I thought was catastrophic in life, but I've been in that business for so long, um, compared to what people. Maybe once I moved to Samsung and then came back to more of a technology background, paradigm was so different. I'm thinking, okay, no, this is not a, this is not a crisis. We can work through this. Let's ask some smart questions, get to root cause. You know, had a restaurant that had like, two or three outbreaks of Salmonell in the same building over the course of, you know, three months. To me, that was epically catastrophic, um, versus two managers that are arguing over who owns the intellectual property over something, um, is not. It's a. It's a serious issue, but nobody's actually dying from it. So it kind of kind of changed your perspective a little bit. So.

Speaker B: So it's interesting, when I was listening there, is it a case of it affects our tolerance levels, um, in terms of what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, and then how that influences perspective, Perspective of what matters or doesn't matter. And surely that's a personal element.

Speaker C: It's such a personal element. And, you know, it's not to say that everyone's experience is unique to them and shapes them. So it's not saying, oh, well, I have this, this life or this career, and that's made me tougher or stronger than someone else. It absolutely doesn't. I do think, however, it adds a component to your makeup, um, that it just gives you, like, a little bit of this light coating over you where things might slide away a little bit easier. Um, and you hear a lot of business leaders and CEOs that have been in retail, hospitality and, and rate, you know, nor people that are in management level say, you know, you always hear a version of the Gap story. You haven't really lived till you folded a T shirt kind of thing. And I, I think for me, that has held extremely true. Because you're right, you just sort of have this different nuanced perspective. And some of it likely has a percentage of being a paralegal a long time ago in a labor firm where I saw, you know, what happens if you don't have good practices. You don't do this. And so it does make you alternately more annoying and more tolerant at the same time. Because the annoying side of you is like, uh, okay, this is what happens if you don't do the sop. Uh, same in a restaurant. Like, if SOP wasn't. Was followed to the letter, maybe, or maybe not. This would have. Actually, it would have happened anyway, my issue in the restaurant. But it m. It just makes you see things so sharply and differently. And I think sometimes it gives you the ability to pull back and maybe support a little bit differently without getting tied up, um, too much in your own feelings about it. Which I think has helped me in terms of being an advisor, a coach in an organization where you kind of see past the immediate crisis and say, well, there's life after this, and we're going to figure out how to navigate this the best way possible.

Speaker B: Uh, it's interesting, isn't it, this sort of almost duality of being able to have tolerance, let things slide, compassion and understanding, and also catch it in the moment, deal with it so it doesn't become an issue. And how do we balance those two things, right? That sense of going, okay, was the, you know, SOP followed? Was, do I need to get this critically dealt with so it doesn't become a massive issue or if I just let it slide, does it then go, oh, damn, should have dealt with that a long time ago, because it's now manifested into something that it shouldn't. And that's a constant duality of life, isn't it?

Speaker C: You know, and it's so interesting. You talk about the duality, and I think about what was the way that you would, you know, how would I have dealt with this years ago, before I had all this, you know, the, um, you know, the repetitive injuries, you know, as you joke, of all the things that happen. Um, and it's funny because you. Sometimes you go outside, sometimes you stand in. Outside the restaurant, and you're just standing there by yourself, talking to no one, so that you can just say, this is so ridiculous. I can't believe you have that moment. You do the same thing in the office as well, where sometimes you just need to have what I call a red card, you know, and, uh, you're, you know, real soccer, as we would say, um, and be able to vent and have that moment, and then you just come back and center yourself. But no one's immune from the triggers. And I think it's just. It helps you with that. That duality. It's like you have to step back and absorb it. That if something has completely ridiculous happened, I do try to ground myself before I go to my team and lose my noodle or do something silly. Because we all have to be, you know, you got to be focused, especially if it's a wider organizational impact. You can't be, you know, with the face of on this, especially since COVID um, you're just right there on the

Speaker B: camera and I think we, you know, it's an interesting time of the year, uh, when you, you know, you're starting a new year and you're looking out and you're thinking about, okay, what does this year ahead look like? What do I want it to look like? What are some of the dangers, you know, what are some of the challenges we might be facing? What are some of these opportunities we might have, Technological ones, geographical ones, market, political background, you know, context that's going on? I'd like to just, um, spend a bit of time going through a process that I learned through my coach, uh, chap called Dan Sullivan, called dos. And it's a bit like a swat of strengths, weakness, opportunities, threats. But DOS is you start with the dangers. So what are the dangers that exist? What are some of the opportunities and what are some of the strengths? And I'd love to, you know, open about that process with you. I haven't done this before in any of the interviews. All right, and I'd love to.

Speaker C: Right, let's.

Speaker B: If you look ahead at this next year for you in your role and at Vernon, what are some of the potential dangers that you, you see, uh, that might be equally. Other listeners could recognize some of those dangers, particularly around future of work and how we're shaping the workforce.

Speaker C: You know, Russell, I love, I mean, I love this. I'm excited to go through this process, uh, with you for the first time. Um, the dangers. You know, I sort of, I guess I'm looking a little externally here in the U.S. um, we do have some concerns, regardless of what political party you're in on how the new, the next president is going to shape our world. Um, everything from immigration, um, birthright to income taxes, Social Security, EEOC here in the U.S. um, equal employment Opportunity Commission, Every single thing has been talked about as a target or a change or so there's no sense of sameness right now. I think, um, if you're, you're in business or you're in HR particularly, you don't really know which way things are going to go. So I think that's a kind of overarching thing that we're all probably. Well, me particularly, I don't. Can't speak for others, but are thinking about. I know my team's talked about it quite a bit over the month of the holiday. Uh, and then I think for the organization that I work with, veridigm, you know, we're actually in what I call dangerous times. We um, have a um, long running audit. We have um, a significant amount of competitor uh, enhancements going on in our uh, software market. We've got um, people thinking about the future of the organization. And so we're sort of the confluence of those two things is about to happen here on probably Monday when we all show back up for the start of the new year. And uh, and I think for me it means what is my role in helping the organization navigate these challenges. And the navigation really ends up at the CEO's office and the board of directors. Then underneath that is those of us that really have to help steer the ship and I do growing as my workout. Um, and you think about a coxswain who's calling out the time and the pace and to some extent that's a little bit where HR is. Um, the CEO and the leaders. We set the strategy and then you got at the back of the boat, you know we've got to help keep that boat steady, keep people engaged, keep the rowers in the boat, everybody in sync, everybody excited about a win. Uh, and I think those are, it's, it's a heavy, it's going to be a heavy year I think.

Speaker B: And I think you know certain industries at certain periods, um, you know what is the seasonality for that and in, in healthcare particularly the uh, opportunities that technology, that data, the shifts that are providing is transforming what service looks like, how we perform every part of um, healthy living and our ah, health span and extension of lifespan and how that integrates. What are you seeing you know for each individual and teams that are responsible to go okay, we're going that way. Right? We have that vision. What are some of the you know, challenges that you might face? Uh, in that context of massive influx of we could do so many things. You know technology, emerging technologies provide so many opportunities. How do you get the clarity through that and the decisions of those leaders and then the follow through?

Speaker C: It's unbelievable. In the midst of the other challenges I define, we are also doing a digital transformation internally. So we are rolling out a new hris, a new ERP system, new um, uh sales force, uh design. So we have all of that and that's separate and away from what our primary mission is which is to transform people's, transform people's lives uh, through healthcare. Um, and so it's really balancing. How do you take what is you know, a limited, at some point, a limited amount of people and help them transform both internally? Because internal transformation will allow us to serve our clients more Effectively. Right. So it's kind of this eternal kind of, you know, lady justice holding the scales of which thing is more important. And I think right now we're desperately trying to keep our focus fairly even where we are bringing some significant, uh, upgrades and enhancements this year to our largest, uh, ehr Electronic health records platform, while also using some of that intellectual capacity, um, to have people partner for this internal transformation. And um, it. And then we have AI layered underneath all of that. We made a small acquisition earlier in 2024. So we have this AI company that's really working hard, starting with our data analytics business, um, supporting a number of research organizations with uh, we're one of the few EHRs that owns our patient records. They're obviously sub to HIPAA and everything else. So it's not, you know, my, our names aren't out there. But uh, that's fruitful deep data for research, um, groups and research physicians to use to help again, uh, transform healthcare and bring better solutions. And so all of that requires a lot of cerebral horsepower. And so it's really trying to figure out with the leaders in the business, all right, who is best suited to really continue forward here and just really drive for the clients. And then how do we marry that with sales who would like, you know, every upgrade to be yesterday? Um, and so we're really from a coaching and HR perspective, it's a lot of talent management balance discussions and it seems like it happens every day and all the business partners every day, all the time, just really helping, helping the people that need to coach the front line be as equipped as humanly possible. The better leaders that we can, we can support and help them grow. That is, that's the name of the game right now in healthcare. I mean a bot can only do so much. And a bot is not what impacts a client or the client's patient, it's the people.

Speaker B: And I think a lot of this also impacts about the time span that we're uh, envisaging, right? As we've got these key shifts from AI as the diagnosis, you know, and sort of copilot to always on monitoring. So the volume of data that we're now getting from wearables to all sorts of things is where is that data collected to how it's dealt with in terms of shifting drug discovery processes. You know, we saw that in Covid the speed of discovery, uh, and then implementation of some of those things to opportunities of designer meds, you know, n of 1 and a model around me with robotics interacting there of robotic Surgeon surgeries going on. This is now right, uh, all integrating in pockets around the world that have these different things and how from a place we go to that place is now shifting of where is health care provided. So everyone in that supply chain from data to technology to all sorts of all evolving their entire service delivery and service models. So as you said you know those transitions, these, this is a lot of opportunity and also pressure to put on people. To put on people.

Speaker C: It's so interesting too when you talk about that just that uh, whole it's like this sphere of just interconnected things everywhere as it relates to AI. And I was at a conference um, that better up. So organization here in the US is really cutting edge in coaching and doing a lot of research. And they uh, their psychologists did a um, bit about AI and being a pilot or a passenger. Um and I think you know a lot of us are passengers or have been passengers as we sort of watched it happen on Google or whatever our search engine is. And it's interesting now that we're thinking about being a pilot and how are we the creator of the idea, ensuring we maintain the creation of the idea and the AI allows us maybe a little bit more freedom and elasticity in our, in our thought process which I think as you were saying for health care is a game changer. I mean the speed at which they're finding off label now on label but off label uses uh, for I mean GLP is one of, I mean obviously right now a huge example uh, of a drug that was originally way back used for something else is now this earth shattering thing. And um, AI makes that happen faster. But you still need the human back there uh really guiding and designing the process. And that's where we talk about it at veridigm quite a bit is what is that balance and how do you engage the talent in a different way where it's not just an engineer, a machine learning engineer, it's got to be this sort of more. Well it's a well rounded group and m. You don't let the AI manage you, you've got to kind of figure out how to manage it. So it's been for someone that is not a healthcare specialist by any means, uh sitting in the grandstands supporting and watching. It's an amazing time in history really.

Speaker B: And I think it gives a unique aspect you know, when you look at the sphere of, of healthcare, of what's going on from traditionally tech firms um, that weren't in healthcare. You take Google, take Apple, some of their most Profound impact is going to be in healthcare. You look at, ah, um, you know, uh, Alpha Preteo, I did a keynote for Baxter, a big healthcare, uh, organization about this and how you can go from the requirement of thousands of R and D human professionals to do that same job with tens of human professionals, leveraging some of these technologies to be able to build a better future where we can create, you know, digital twins of cells for drug discovery. We can create all of these things to expedite the process. So where does that leave us for this year ahead in terms of, right, we've got all this opportunity, all these great potential tools that are out there for doing things and leaders are sat there going, hey, you've got to learn this new software, you've got to learn this new erp. We've got this new process going on. All these things that are happening, the complexities then of hybrid challenges, right, of where do we work from, how do we hang out, how does that impact engagement, how does that impact performance and those sorts of things. So in terms of your, your key rocks for this year of milestones, of what you're going to be focusing on, what are those and why?

Speaker C: You know, it's interesting, as you were saying all that, I thought, oh, I kind of need a nap. Even though it's very early in the morning here in the US So I would say, um, you know, personally it's going to be, I have to continue to manage my balance. Um, you know, not about. It's not so much work life. I look at it as just wellness in general, that I just need to maintain that healthy outlook and physical wellness because it allows you to show up better for everybody that you engage with. And ah, I think for me, one of the things that my team and I are talking about and the CEO is extremely invested in and I believe, uh, I'm not alone, is upskilling, upskilling and more upskilling. And upskilling doesn't mean that the skills we have are not great and that we're not amazing, intelligent people. It means the world around us is changing and if we hang on to a software that's no longer actively being used to create, you're going to fall behind. And we don't want to lose the great talent that we have, um, because we didn't give the opportunity for growth and development. So I would say that's probably the biggest piece of it. And then really it's about unifying people to understand what can happen, what we expect to happen, what the plan, uh, says and what other companies have done successfully, that's going to happen at the end of all this work because let's get real, um, any changes to huge software platforms, updating anything internally, all of those things are just painful, um, and can be tedious. So not every day is like sitting in a cohort and brainstorming and eating cookies and having a good time. But at ah, the, that while we're doing this, we are all learning, growing and developing together and we're all shaping our ability to be better colleagues, better leaders, et cetera. And at the end of it, we are so much stronger as an organization. And you know what, if it's not for you, look at what you got through and look at the adventure you had and the skills that you gained. And you know that that's the thing is my, my other thing is if, if things shift in an organization, we have to move and change with people. It's to, it's to leave them with a feeling that when they move to their next step in their career ladder, they left better than what they came in. Um, because it's, I mean it's realistic that we, people choose to leave and, and maybe we don't have enough growth for them. But as long as they look back at the people that they work with with respect and they feel like they really got a value out of being part of our paradigm organization, that's, that's tantamount. And they, a lot of them come back later. So.

Speaker B: And um, like you said at the very beginning, you know, your own journey whilst has been in different, uh, badges on the door, it's often been with similar team members.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Is that as people move, if you find that I like hanging out with these people, they made me a better person. Right. They, they understand me, they develop me and vice versa. And therefore we shift and move around in those, in those environments. I really liked what you talked about there, Lisa. In terms of starting with this requirement of wellness to, to be able to upskill, we have to be well, right? We have to have good sleep. You know, we have to, I learned

Speaker C: it very late in life, I'll tell you. I was not, this was not, you know, uh, who I was 20 years ago. And I, um. You can't show up for other people fully. Yeah.

Speaker B: And this relentless, uh, you have to learn, you have to do, we've got to do more with less. Well, actually having the space, the capacity as a human being to even learn. We have to understand the environment factors of that. What's our biochemical makeup A mental makeup, physical makeup, to ensure that we're not just throwing stuff that doesn't actually have any impact. And I think that's one of the biggest challenges, right? You see it in schools with kids where, you know, they go and you'll get 30 in the class. Some will get it, some won't get it. Same content, same material. But what's the difference? What's the difference between what they ate, how well they're sleeping, what support they have around them? And we often overlook that opportunity of saying, right, we need fertile, uh, ground of the right environment. So starting with the wellness, then link upskilling and the art of possible, what are. How are we expanding the horizons to make and help people see things differently, think differently? Uh, and those integration of those three pillars, I, I really like that. So in terms of the, to come to the, you know, opportunity, the strengths, what exists in the organization in order to be able to do that, to be able to give the space for wellness, to be able to drive upskilling and be able to drive the expansion of what's possible.

Speaker C: I think, you know, at veritigm, we're lucky to have a couple of things. We have one, we have some, some pods of people that have worked together for many, many years, have a lot of respect, and they really get it. Um, we have some robust ERG employee resource groups and they really help, um, each other, um, cope and wellness strategies. And we just started a series. Number two in the series is, uh, breaking the Ice and having open conversations about Perry and menopause, which unheard of a few years ago. One of our board members came on and talked about her experience. Like it was this, this moment of like, wow, we had all these, these women, uh, and a couple men join in and we're going to do a series on that. And so we have people that are willing to do the work, I guess, if that makes sense, that they believe in veridigm's mission for themselves and for their careers. And they also believe in themselves as a team. Um, in an organization. There's a lot of mutual respect. And so I believe that is going to be how we, we push forward this year. Because this is definitely a unique time for the organization, um, and unique, uh, and challenging, but also really interesting and exciting for them as well. So we, we just, you know, there's that share. You got to have a shared vision.

Speaker B: Yeah, that shared vision. And then the encouragement and space for those people that, uh, are passionate about something to have the floor. Here you go. This is a piece that's relevant. Let's talk about menopause, pre menopause, you know, what's going on, life stories. Let's have that experience so that we can get compassion, understanding and movement forward. So if we, if we were sat here 2nd of January, 2026, what's happened in that year for you to go? That was an incredible year. I'm so proud of what I've accomplished, what we've accomplished. What would you express to me of what's happened at that point?

Speaker C: I think I've got a, uh, wellness challenge for myself this year is, which is three different goals. And if I get all three of those, I'll be very happy in January of 2026 and that'll keep me sane and effective. Uh, and does that happen to start

Speaker B: with the trip to Miami for the weekend?

Speaker C: Let's start time for you, Miami with my, my best friend of 43 years. Um, her. Yeah, her father passed away recently and I've been, you know, poking her. You've got to step out to be able to step back in. And um, so she, she's. We're going to go sit quietly somewhere in the sun for a few days and come back. And so then after that will be a couple half marathons and a, ah, full marathon. So that keeps me, keeps me happy and balanced. That's a good thing. But I think organizationally we have a hard, There's a hard pull coming and a push, uh, as well. And for me in 2026 it would be, um, navigating the sea of change that we have in front of us and coming out stronger. Um, and stronger means obviously, primarily, uh, for our shareholders, uh, and for our clients and the patients that benefit from the things that we do and for us to see the retention and growth of our associates, um, to see us go through what is going to be probably the hardest year in our history as, uh, a legacy company called Allscripts and now Veridigm and uh, be able to come out stronger for all parties at the other end of it.

Speaker B: And I think so many who are listening will probably resonate with that of this. We know we're going to be facing even more, uh, change, opportunity, shift. And we want to grow without depletion and just complete exhaustion.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: We want to grow with health as well. Right. The health of the system, um, that we've not got there and we've gone, oh, I now need, you know, a complete period of time in.

Speaker C: I love the way intensive care, the health of this system. I'm, I'M I'm, I'm m. Glam me on to that one. Thank you for that.

Speaker B: And I think one of the things of recognizing the, as you said, with all of that technology, with all of the opportunity of what's possible of upskilling, it's still humans at the center, you know, how do we ensure that they're unlearning things that are no longer functioning for them? How do we ensure that they've got the mental flexibility to see new opportunities than uh, we've always done it this way. How do we ensure that we've got the resilience that when something doesn't go right, because we're going to be doing more experiments, we're going to do more things, we can recover quickly and well without that depletion to burnout, um, and to have that grid and determination that what we're doing matters. Right. And so within all of that you've got the context of requiring high levels of psychological safety, you know, uh, dealing with personal health, stress, impact and what's the wake, the energy that when I like the phrase, you said step out, to step in, you know, when I come in to a zoom, when I come into a session, what am I bringing in other than my viewpoint, my, what's my frequency, what's my energy, you know, and really putting a, ah, call out on that.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's, I, I think you're right. I think any guests that you speak to probably going forward this year is, is going through a lot of the similar change and uh, and it's, it's definitely challenging. But you're right, we have to, we have to approach it kind of with, we have to approach it with our whole self. Um, because if we, we leave things on the side, uh, we're not, we're not going to make it. Uh, and people, you know, it's sort of, it's not out of ego but in, in the function, the HR function there's an odd dependency on us, um, for, for silly things like making sure they get uh, you know, a paid time off, ah, approval or some transactional payment and the bigger pieces of the coaching and development on all of that. And so we, we gotta come, um, we gotta be ready and, and it's

Speaker B: interesting isn't it, where you know, so many of these things go unmeasured and unseen until we see the symptom. So it's a bit like a health. Right. You know, there's so many data markers but we don't go and show up until something's Wrong. Similarly, in terms of navigating change, we don't know until something's going wrong. Right. It shows up that something's, um, you know, hitting late. Um, you know, the budget's challenging. We're getting issues of, you know, engagement or performance or something that is a symptom the earlier diagnosis. What is that data? How do we measure some of those things?

Speaker C: You know, And I think, yeah, I do urge. I will say, Ross. I do urge, uh, early in career, uh, people that are looking at HR as a career, I urge them strongly to take business classes and really have a deep understanding of the P and L. That's just like, that's probably a whole separate topic with a future guest. But, uh, if the, the, as you said about the data, the data is there if you know where to look for it. And most people in traditional HR programs don't necessarily get taught where to look for it. I, obviously, I didn't come with a HR education. I don't even know if they offered it back, you know, when I graduated from college. But it's in the data. Um, and the PNL will tell you over a little bit of time if you're inefficient, if your employees are. Yeah. I mean, you can see performance, engagement, retention. Yeah, these things are all of it.

Speaker B: Yeah. They're often the downstream effects of something else. As you mentioned, you know, having the space for root cause that you can have those candid conversations to whilst. Yes, we want to co. Elevate, but can we call out things in a humane way? Um, and it's, you know, the difference of a question in different environments. We were talking about, you know, how airports, uh, can often be triggers for people. Right. Of our shadow selves showing up.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And if your airport version is that team, that session, that meeting room, that day, it's very unlikely that you'll hear what is intended because you'll just hear what you want to hear. You're pissed off because of this reason or whatever it is. How do we make sure we're not creating the horrible, uh, airport trigger environment for somebody when they're going through change? I'm exhausted. I'm tired. I've just done this and now you're asking me this. What the, uh.

Speaker C: As opposed to.

Speaker B: No, I'm chill. I can take this on. I'm. I'm open to learning things. I'm not taking it personally. That takes hard work and it takes trust across people.

Speaker C: Right. I think you just came up with 2025's most relatable metaphor. Congratulations. I'm. I'm going to. I'm going to write something on that for my team and give you full credit, um, to kick off the year. Because you're right. It's. How do you keep all that outside triggering stimuli, whether it's good or bad? You know, for some of us, we go to an airport and there's the. Whatever the smell is. There's Auntie Ann's pretzels. Here in the US we're like. And then really. So I just let my wellness wander off. And for other people, you know, and then it's the gate. It's all the crazy, weird things that happen and other people. So you're right. It's. How do we make. How do we just, you know, leveled out our, uh, responses to that so we can focus on what the root cause is? What's the real challenge? Um, you know, as part of the coaching habit. The Michael Bungay Steiner fabulous book. What's the real challenge here? It's not that that guy is annoying because he's chewing loudly. It's more. What is this? Yeah. My response that allowed me to be annoyed by that guy. So you're right. It's absolutely.

Speaker B: And it can be some simple practices. Right. Some simple practices to create the space and capacity in oneself that once we understand and aware of that, to be able to get back to a point at which I'm now productive physically and mentally to the task at hand.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So when I've had a real, you know, bad issue, someone's pissed me off. This has happened. Can I acknowledge. Can I deal? Can I step out? To step back in? Can I go? Okay, I've recognized I'm in the airport where the guy's just pushed in front of me. Okay. I'm going to step out, step back in. And this is the person I want to be in that session. And allow each other to call it out, allow each other to recognize it and support and say, hey, you know, and we do it with the kids. I remember grandkids, you know, do you need a timeout? Time out right now. You've had a bit too much sugar.

Speaker C: Professional time out. I'm gonna go sit in my chair in the corner and be okay with it.

Speaker B: Right. And be that. That is healthy. That's healthy. To say, I see it, I support it, and I don't judge or then punish because of.

Speaker C: I actually just weaken yourself over time. If you. If you. To your point, if we keep allowing those triggers.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: To manifest bigger than what they should be. I mean, we all get triggered, like you said, but it's how we respond. And I think it's, it's, it's so key to be able. And I think that's one of the things we try to build where you, we use the logic of the coaching habit to help with development internally. And one of the leaders, emerging leaders, came on a round table and said, you know, um, I've also had to listen more, a lot more, um, because I would get triggered immediately by the question or the comment and I would, I would just go and not hear anything. So, and I think it's so interesting because it's like this random connection to AI. But what's interesting is that if you allow that, that all the development that's happening in AI to trigger you, like, uh, you know, it's too much and I, my job is going to go away. That's the most common thing we hear, right. I'm going to lose my job because of AI. But if you actually let it soak in and you think about it a little bit deeper, don't let it trigger you.

Speaker B: Yeah, that trigger is often. Then it puts cotton wool in the ears.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And we don't hear what comes next.

Speaker C: Right. And then you end up with a losing script. You know, there's no good outcome to that game. Um, but if you think about, well, how is it that I harness the AI along with my intellect and my skills to move it forward. And I think that's what a lot of us are thinking about right now. Um, because whether or not I'm at the forefront of using AI to create, you know, veridigm view or not, it is, um, you know, all of us, we're navigating massive change right now. Obviously, AI has been.

Speaker B: Is the, It's a big driver and it's the interconnected. Healthy systems, healthy systems of Lisa, uh, healthy systems of Ross, healthy systems of the team, healthy systems of, you know, the organization and then the industry. So that, uh, as you know, we said, we end up not depleted, uh, by growth, um, but actually ready for next.

Speaker C: Ready for next. Because you've always got to be ready. It's funny, you never know. And that's one of the things about the pace in a hospitality and restaurant environment. It is this fast and you never know what's going to happen next. You. I mean, nobody orders off the menu anymore. They want modifiers, right? And that's like what we're doing now is a glorified version of one giant menu modifier where Ross does not want a Cheeseburger anymore. He wants like a hand milked fresh goat cheese. I would like, you know, everything is modified and it's a challenge to execute and you just have to.

Speaker B: And that's in every industry, right? We want n of one something just for me, you know, meds for me, coaching for me, development for me, uh, all of those things. And technology is as you know, glimmered the possibility of that. And it's now how we you know, implement those and compound them. So as we come to a close there's uh, a couple of pieces. First one, if people want to um, reach out to you, something that they heard triggered that they wanted to discuss in a little bit more detail or something like that, how do they best get in touch with you if that's something that is interesting? Because I know that you do some other coaching uh, areas and stuff, uh, yourself, uh, so that, that's part one. So maybe just answer that. How do they best reach or get in touch with you? Lisa?

Speaker C: Yeah, probably the fastest is LinkedIn. Um, I've gotten much more disciplined about. If someone gives me a, a reference of where they, where we met or where they heard me, that helps me immensely. I'm very quick on that. And then um, I'm happy also to provide my email, personal email address as well. And um, yeah, a lot of connections are made that way for all of us and there's a lot of people that I lean on to collaborate and give me thought, leadership and coaching. Uh, I've heard them on a podcast or met them at a conference and it's. It's a small world.

Speaker B: It is, it is. And um, a question that um, throughout the um, uh, I, I did confess actually to my business partner Mike. I said the last two podcasts. I don't think I asked that question because I've been asking the same question at the end for over 140 episodes and I, I'd forgotten for a few and I was like, where was I? I was so engrossed in it. So I've made my, my noted and it's related to uh, firsts and the question is, when was the last time you did something for the first time and what was it?

Speaker C: Let's see. In 2024 this year I went to a jungle in Nepal by myself and hung out with elephants and got to feed these, uh, feed elephants and touch like I don't know what else to say. I, I traveled alone to Nepal and um, for the first time, that was a big trip. The last time I had a friend with me, I was by myself. I went hiking with a guide, obviously, but I had never been that close to an elephant. It was on my bucket list. And every day I wake up thinking about how I can go back.

Speaker B: Wow, interesting.

Speaker C: So that's been a while. I need to find something else to do now. That's the.

Speaker B: It's interesting. You know, as I said, I've asked this question to many people now and just that arresting, uh, response of, oh, that's a tough question. How should I respond? Should I respond in this way? In this way? All sorts of things going on on her mind. And also just that self questioning of when was the last time I did

Speaker C: something for the first roller skating? But I realized when I was a kid, I did that all the time. I went to a 50th birthday party last weekend and there was roller skating.

Speaker B: Well, it comes to the second part, that for people who've listened to my show for a while, we'll get this. But those who are listening, uh, fresh. Another part that I try to encourage people to think of is for the first time, doesn't have to be a unique thing. So how can we take something that we've done many times and treat it with naive mind, Naive, uh, mind and naive eyes so it feels like a first time so that we're truly listening, we're truly experiencing and have the beauty in that. So if we're, if we walk the dogs every day, how can we treat it as if that was the first time we were walking? If it was roller skating? You did it before. Well, what was it like roller skating? Now it's different.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And so, uh, just that beauty of treating something even when it isn't in a jungle, seeing elephants for the first time, that's on a bucket list. How can we make and bring that joy and that childlike curiosity of those naive eyes, Naive mind to something that is every day and treat it like a first to listen, see how it

Speaker A: shows up for us.

Speaker B: So that's just, uh, a piece and a message. I'd like to encourage you and our listeners to journey through life, um, seeing things with those beautiful, naive mind.

Speaker C: No, I love that. Thank you so much for that nugget. All right.

Speaker B: It's been an absolute pleasure. What a great. This is my first session, first meeting for the year, and it's been a real delight. Lisa and I can attest to your responsiveness on LinkedIn because that's how we connected M through LinkedIn. And it's always a pleasure to expand my network with people I, uh, love to uh, stay in touch, connect you with some other people that I think might be interesting, particularly in your, in your space of healthcare. We, we do a lot in that area and see how we can co. Elevate together.

Speaker C: So thanks, I love that and thank you so much for the outreach. This was my, uh, it's my first solo endeavor, uh, on something like this, so maybe I should have used this as my first time doing something, something so far out into my own head I didn't know I had to think about it. So thank you for the opportunity. It's been a pleasure and I am. I, um, I, I've got some really good nuggets that I'm, I'm going to take into the New year and you as well were the first meeting of my new year and uh, onward. So.

Speaker A: Excellent.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker A: Do you have the level of adaptability to survive and thrive the rapid changes ahead? Has your resilience got more comeback than a yo yo? Do you have the ability to, um, unlearn in order to reskill, upskill and break through? Find out today and uncover your adaptability profile and score your AQ. Visit aqai IO to gain your personalised report across 15 scientifically validated dimensions of adaptability. For a limited time, enter code PODCAST65 for a complimentary AQME assessment transforming the way people, teams and organizations navigate change. Thank you for listening to this episode of Decoding aq. Please make sure you subscribe on your favorite podcast directory and we'd love to hear your feedback. Please do leave a review and be sure to tune in next time for more insights from our amazing guests.