Thomas Voigt: How to navigate in the evolving landscape of Customer Success? Thomas shares his best tips!

Speaker A: Welcome to Customer Success with Fahim Woller, Norway's first and only customer success podcast. I'm Fahim. I'm um, the CEO and founder of Customer Catalyst, an all in one customer success platform. I've spent the last decade in SaaS helping teams drive real results through customer success. And on this show I will sit down with top CS leaders from around the world to share practical insights, strategies and tools you can use right away. From best practices to the latest tech, we make customer success simple, actionable and inspiring. Welcome to another episode of Customer Success with Fahim Waller. Today I am joined by Thomas Voigt. He's a, ah, CS leadership consultant with over 20 years of experience in SaaS media and insights, including a decade in leadership roles. So welcome to the podcast. Thomas.

Speaker B: Hi Vajem. Very nice to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me to your podcast.

Speaker A: No problem. Great to have you on. I think this episode will be a really exciting episode for sure. Um, but before we dive into today's episode, could you please just uh, introduce yourself to our listeners, Tell us a little bit about yourself. Uh, who is Thomas?

Speaker B: Sure, absolutely. As you mentioned, I work as a customer success consultant. I'm independent and I work globally. I'm based in the uk, in London. And um, I had a history of working in customer success for a while. My last job was at uh, GWI where I was heading up the customer success department and account management for media and tech companies. And uh, I grew this department from 3 million to 10 million in four years. And it was a time really when GWI was at a high growth area. And that was uh, a lot of um, learning and a lot of scaling which was great. And before that I worked many, uh, many years in television. I was a researcher, ah, I made sense of ratings, of a lot of information about customers, how they television across the globe. And I was also based in London and um, tried to build up a digital research department and making sure you know, people understand how people watched in the past like linear TV as you know to moving to streaming services going forward. And um, yeah I remember we were launching um, you know, products for discovery mainly in the, in the Nordics as well. I remember that um, with dmax and D and all these kind of uh, things I think started in Denmark and in Sweden I think so in Norway. Deep Play, that was the name. Yes. And I m was basically the guy who were ah, creating all the numbers and trying to make sure you know, we grow appropriately. So yeah, my sweet stop is sweet spot is basically having A research background, loving numbers into, moved into customer success and now um, really working across the globe and focusing on you know, B2B tech companies in particular, media insights. Um, but I'm really open for horizontal SaaS companies as well and to share my knowledge and help companies to grow particular scale up companies who had investment and who are looking to build their CS functions out.

Speaker A: Really interesting, uh, it's really fascinating when I talk to you know, customer success managers, customer success leaders. They all have, you know, very different backgrounds. So it's interesting to hear your backgrounds Thomas. I think you are uh, a really interesting background and story. Myself I started with uh, sales actually I have a sales background. So uh, now I've been in customer success for over a decade but I started with sales. So for me that transition felt really, really natural. But that's. Wow, that's interesting to hear. Yeah, you are a number person. You like, you know, ah, statistics and numbers. You like to really dig into data.

Speaker B: I think what's important is, and I'm assuming we're going to speak about this is to um, focus really on what is important and that are um, numbers. If you talk to the board, if you talk to your CEO, you need to prove story. So I think knowing the numbers is one thing, but then becoming a data storyteller I think is the other one to basically make your point, you know, why you're doing things and why customer success is so important. Um, and this is why we're here today. Right. So talking all about all that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really appreciate you taking the time to, to speak to me Thomas and obviously for all our listeners. Uh, really interesting. How did you. Yeah, that's a really interesting background. How did you sort of think. Yeah, okay, customer success, this is something I want to pursue and start a career in and uh, yeah, be a CS leadership consultant in as well. How did that go about?

Speaker B: I think there's a uh, red line in my career. So I had jobs before I worked at Discovery and I think. Let me start with when I studied, I studied business administration and my majors were marketing, psychology and communication. So I was always interested in understanding human beings, their behavior and then through tv. Being a researcher is like understanding human behavior. That means understanding why people watch television, why people watch stories, what engages people. So you see that's basically the, the base for being a customer, a good customer success person or leader. Just to understand what makes relationships, how to build up trust, how to understand the needs, how to understand how you can develop value basically and that in connection with Having a good understanding of data, um, speaking the data language I think is quite important as well. So I think I always have been in this space and still am m. So I get a lot of energy these days. For example, if I can coach, I see as leaders and if I hear their full story, if I hear why there are blockers, why are they hesitant to move forward, um, and so on. Because it's always the bigger picture and it always comes down to managing relationships and, and understanding yourself as well. You know, self awareness is a very important thing to be. To look at when you are a leader in particular in our function and to want to make an impact going forward. So that's my background and um, I'm just trying to play it out or plate it out to different channels if you want to. In the media or the TV section as well as now in the SAS industry.

Speaker A: Yeah, really interesting. Really interesting. Uh, Thomas, you know, customer success as a, as a, as a profession and the field has, you know, I'm not sure you have felt this as well, but you most, most, most likely have. I think the, you know, the profession of customer success or the customer success field has you know, transformed uh, a lot the last couple of years. And I see a, you know, I see uh, a transition, uh, if you will, or a, you know, a progress towards, you know, aligning with revenue. That's sort of a lot of what a lot of customer success leaders are, are talking about, especially in the Nordics, about, you know, how should we, you know, align our customer success motion with the revenue. And a lot of people that have maybe started with customer success don't have a sales background or they didn't want to. You know, they started with customer success because they wasn't comfortable with selling or you know, having these commercial sort of, uh, uh, dialogues with customers. So that's really interesting to see. You know, when I coach customer success managers and customer success leaders, it's just like you say, Thomas, it's a lot of different, you uh, know, uh, scenarios. Uh, one thing that I've noticed is, you know, since customer success is, I would say a relatively new field, it's uh, it's not so much. It's either a lot of information out there or it's not so much information. So it's a lot of sort of overload, load of information about customer success. So hopefully people like you, Thomas, can help, you know, uh, just cut through the noise and give us some actionable insights.

Speaker B: Yes, totally. I think would be. You're absolutely right. I think CS is in a big, you know, shifting moment. Some people even say that CS is in a crisis. I wouldn't go that far. Well, the thing is, you're right, um, some companies still use customer success or see customer success as a cost center or as um, you know, folks who basically schmoozing a little bit with customers, making sure their customers happy. It's all a bit fluffy, isn't it? So often you know they use um, they don't use any um, metrics of success. So they don't know how to measure success, how to progress, how to know what good means, how to go to great. For example then some, some companies start with NPS cset, uh, which is a great start. But as you said we're moving into a phase where every, well a lot of folks really see customer success as a revenue driver and it's right so because we are you know a post sales or post acquisition function and in our space there's compound revenue growth if you do it really good. And if we think about it and a lot of we're catering for catering, you know, for companies who do have recurring business. And so we need to really focus on that and we need to make sure we really have a system in place and a framework as customers success leaders to be able to understand how success could look like, to pick the right metrics and then to define the right processes, you know, in our department. But also think a cross code to market and then being able to move along and then eventually scale, you know, this is what we want and ah, that's a new part of it and that's the fun part as well because it's quite complex. It comes with I think restructuring things sometimes starting with zero. Because I see with at the moment when I talk to clients that they dive far too quickly into details. They have a long list of client communication and they want to consolidate this and they got lost in task. And then sometimes you ask them, well, what's the bottom line? How many clients do you have? Did you do a segmentation? Um, what really is working? Are you serving the icp? Are you talking to your sales folks? What is the connection with this? What metrics do you have? And then this conversation, I think hug but starts to ignite really a thought provoking process that really focuses on the value of customer success these days. And then you start really seeing the bigger picture and then you connect the dots on why you are a revenue engine and why you need to be really up your game a little bit and why you need to have Leaders who you know, demonstrate the power of or the gold mine you sit on your clients and how you can actually grow them.

Speaker A: Yeah, really interesting. I agree with uh, with all you said. Uh Thomas, what is your experience with you know you mentioned a little bit about you know, KPIs and metrics. Obviously NPS and CSAT has uh, has been around for, for quite some while. So you have you know, you know people always had a north stark metric of customer success is that you know, NRR net revenue retention. You also have grr gross revenue retention. What would you say is like some in your experience, some, some, some um, some valuable KPIs to have for CS teams. You have some, something off top of your mind.

Speaker B: Yes, of course there are variation of um, um metrics. I don't think that NRR as such is a metric that you can always apply. So you as a leader you shouldn't go in and say like oh my top number one metric is nrr. I m think it depends on the stage of the company you're in. I think if you are at a you know, startup scale up, you know, of course the focus of CEOs is mostly you know to on the acquisition side. So you're potentially talking about growth metrics so bringing in more revenue and bringing in actually more clients. And then when you build out CS then I think the most important one is keeping clients. Who are you talking about? Grr. Uh, going forward. And then I think at some point when you build your scaling process, when you understand how cross sell upsell opportunities could really look like you have when you defined a product market fit um through your core product but also know that you know you can enlarge your product market fit through these upscale and cross sell opportunities. You then start to talk about NRR and then once you're growing further, that's fantastic. You want to think about profit propability as well. So you need to make sure you're keeping your costs down at some point as well. You know we know the times of uh, unlimited you know um, growth on so that you can spend just the money but it always depends on you know, where the cost aspect comes in. Normally it should start very, very early so you just not go for anything. You need to prioritize and you need to have a uh, you know, efficiency thought in mind at any given time. But while you are really going from scaling to the growth mode in a company, you really need to make sure that you're smoothing out, you know your costs and you're making it even more Efficient going forward. So you see I mentioned four metrics here. You know, if you think about it, um, and it always depends and these are just metrics that focus on, you know, the business side of things. I think you have other metrics as well that you need to focus on. If you are uh, in particular in the SAS industry. We were talking about this usage, um, onboarding time to value, all these kind of things. So at the end of the day, uh, what you need to do is you need to understand how do you define success for your company. And that's an exercise that you need to do across go to market or even the C level leadership team. And then you break it down, what it actually means for customer success and then you bring in the time axis as well and think like, okay, with which uh, metric are we going to start? What's important? And then how do you track this and how to build this up? This is how I would start. Um, so you see it's relatively simple but I think you need to simplify this to then just go into the nitty gritty bit and grow and make your experiences really great.

Speaker A: I think you broke it down really, really great, Thomas. You know, uh, so for all of you who are listening to this, I think you gave a pretty good step by step, almost like a step by step guide. How would you do this? So this is really interesting. Um, I saw you had sort of a crystal ball prediction with uh, the founder of CS Connect, Sahil Carquera, on LinkedIn. So I was just interested about speaking with you a little bit about, you know, what sort of trends are you seeing? Is there something you are excited about when it comes to customer success? Tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I think there are a couple of things of course we could mention. AI and AI is um, a fast paced technology that is evolving. I'm m assuming. We can't imagine what's going to be possible in 12 months time in customer success. So this is really rapidly growing and I'm excited about this because it's the speed that we will go through the process, the speed that will help us to really excel, to you know, have more help in place so we can free up our time to focus on building connections and um, and focusing on building a business basically. And that could be through trust building, through focusing on better and the right clients or just making sure, you know, we can really dive into the needs and how we can actually how we can deliver more value to clients going forward. That's important. So AI is taking over more and more when it comes to tasks that we don't want to do. Helps us in improving processes but also helps us in as you know, doing the forecasting which is, this is what I'm really liking. If we think about the connections of different AI agents that we have already in our tech stack but connecting all these and having a, you know, ideally a customer intelligent hub where all these agents are going to talk to each other. So the agents there to look at the conversation, the usage, the financial data, uh, the information about the customer as such, you know, and how it develops and so on. And if you connect all this and then you have a lovely platform or like a dashboard that tells you exactly what to do and gives you information ahead of you know, your conversation with your client, that's fantastic. So you see the co pilot idea is becoming more and more prominent here in this space and it is not only for CSM to use, it is for CS leaders and I would say it's actually for everyone who wants to understand the stage of the company going forward. So that's really exciting. That's coming up. The other one is I think more on a personal like on a uh, development, career development side. I know CSMs are uh, the moment overwhelmed. We are all overwhelmed because I feel like one job, customer success manager is now becoming at least 6, 7, 8 jobs going forward and we feel the pressure to just deal with that because people just tell you well it's your job isn't it? So how, how to prioritize. So in the future there will be, I think customer success will split. Um, it's the same like revenue is not only sales and the customer success. It's you know, it is also marketing and it is potentially rev ops and so on. So CSMs I think will go into a potentially a technical role where you just are being connected a little bit more to the technical and support side. They will go more towards the product side as well. Because at the moment what we see often is there's a disconnect between the client who has a product issue and the product team. It goes via customer success. That's the third layer and sometimes over complicating things. So you will shortcut this and I think in the future you have to potentially more CSMs going to the product teams and helping straight out of this. So you see that it's more connected to that, it's a straighter and it's a better line to the client. Then I think you will also have changes in leadership going forward. I Think leadership today need to speak up much more. I think the mindset and the skill set of leaders are uh, going to change. You can't just, you know, run UCS function and make sure you bring in good NPS numbers and talk about um, nrr. You need to become a real ambassador of your client. You have to have a centric customer, centric vision. And for me that means practically you need to make sure you bring in your clients and make sure everyone in the company understands this. Not only what the customer says, but how growth could look like, how you do develop value on a constant basis, how you are on top of things so that you guide your clients going forward, how you are become, become a leader in your segment. Ideally, you know, and um, the CS leader is the one who needs to facilitate that because he owns it, right. He wants to own it and he has an opportunity. So just sitting there and thinking CS is in a crisis. It's not helping anyone. Let's start proving it that we actually can do a lot. And this is the fun that that's now starting that I'm personally very excited about and that um, I really want to help people to thrive in or do it myself basically when I come in and help folks to scale up.

Speaker A: Yeah. So just uh, to recap, so I agree with you, AI, uh, agent is uh, I wouldn't say a buzzword but it's a lot of, a lot of hype around the AI agents and that's interesting to see how the AI agents can help us in customer success. There's already quite a few companies, I know that they're doing it in a full fledged way but I see a lot of uh, uh, AI agent for customer success management is uh, becoming more prominent. Um, so you would say that customer success teams need to be more specialized. Uh, maybe they have to focus on, you know, if you don't have to prove their sort of their values so to speak. Either if it's a technical role or it's a commercial role. It's not enough to just be, you know, sort of a relationship manager. You have to. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it depends. Again this is uh, I can't say it generally on this is how it will happen. What I say is, dear companies, go and say what are your needs from customer success? So that's quite important. Bring it down. What are your priorities? Basically redefine your job description and then basically start hiring the right customer success folks with the right background. It can be a little bit more product orientated, it can be more techy it can be a service orientated, it can be more um, professional service orientated. It can just be a relationship building. And that's quite important for the CSM side. It's also quite important to just think like, what do I actually want? Uh, you know, a lot of CSMs feel overwhelmed, say like, oh, now I need to carry a quota, I need to make money. What's that? I don't want that. Great. Go back to your values and your proposition and just rethink what you actually want to do and think about opportunities going forward. Just don't follow what the company wants from you. Just start with you again because otherwise it will not, you won't be a good fit and it will show and you will not deliver this. So I see this more like an opportunity for yourself to go back and to redefine your, your journey going forward.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. With AI, do you think a lot of people. I don't know a lot of people, but uh, I think some customer success managers are, you know, a little bit uh, uh, worried maybe AI, you know, is AI going to replace me? How do you feel about, you know, you know, leveraging those things? A balance between using AI automation and uh, AI agents. How do you see, you know, the role of the customer success manager in that sort of new landscape?

Speaker B: Yeah, there will be some roles, um, not existing that do exist in particular I think in the customer service area. So if you think about um, chatbots. So, um, chatbots are becoming more and more important and you can feed them and they will be very intelligent, they speak the tone of the customers while not only their language and they're really good at the moment. So I think this is an area where um, AI is coming in, very much so. But I think what we need to understand is you need to be familiar with AI opportunities and how it can help you to thrive. In particular, what I see where the lack is at the moment is when you think about um, executing, forecasting. So if I'm an executive and, or I'm a board member, I'm an investor, I want to understand what's the state of my, my client base. Where can we grow? What are the obstacles? Give me a forecast. These are the questions that do really matter first. So if we can answer these as a CSM by using AI, that helps me to better forecast. Fantastic. So that's really cool. So make sure you focus on that because it has a priority, you know, making sure you see the bigger picture instead of diving into much into, you know, in your Rabbit hole. That's. I think what we all need to do is connect with the overall goals, connect with the business as such, see where it's going. And that's interesting. You know, this is why we do all this. You know, we're not just doing this to have happy customers. Yeah, maybe. But the main goal is for most companies who are non for profit companies is to make money. So let's just break it down and make sure we can deliver our contribution. And that's the key thing.

Speaker A: Yeah, just say it as it is. Yeah, we don't do customer success out of the goodness of our heart. Obviously, uh, we want to bring some value back to uh, our company.

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't want it black and white. And I know there's a Discussion also on LinkedIn about we need to do value building. Everything else is following. I think it's a good combination. But at the end of the day we run commercial organizations. It's about money making, guys.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, Interesting. I think, uh, you're touching upon a lot of different and interesting topics. Thomas, if you could say one thing about what overall direction do you think the customer success field is headed towards? Do, uh, you have some insights there?

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I think we're now in the phase where we. I think it's a bit like the aftershock situation, like everyone is new to dealing with too much stuff. So things will consolidate. As I said, we will have more lines of businesses and uh, hopefully clearer ways of working together because we will redefine what's our North Star metric, what really matters. And then we will align things top down going forward. So I think we will become. So customer success will be more, hopefully more clear and we'll have more facets, you know, on how to contribute to the business going forward. It will be clearer. There will potentially also be organizational changes. As I said, you know that customer success is not only reporting into chief revenue office or um, CEO, but as I said, some folks might just say we're going to report into product or we'll just sit under um, it or whatever depends. The role as such might really be fragmented. It's being there where it's really being needed and it's actually part of uh, a bigger picture. I think customer success, if you think about it, is a function that tries to understand what clients want and how to serve their needs going forward. And if you think about this should really be everybody's job. We have everyone in the company should do this. So implementing the idea through various customer success managers into various other Functions across the company is actually not a bad idea because it helps all of us to really have this customer first. Um, thinking what they will do and hopefully will bring in is as I said, this commercial acumen, this commercial perspective on things and hopefully align us as well. Um, I really hope this customer success will be a driver of cross functional collaboration. See this still and it's a human thing, isn't it? You know marketing departments has their own um, focus, their own KPIs the same then sales and so on. But if you, if I would create a customer success function I would make sure, you know, I would talk to the CEO and have my backing from the CEO as well that I have the power um, to you know, or that we all should align and go to market and that it should be orchestrate from the customer success point. Why? Because I believe that's, that's the source of recurring revenue and this is why it's powerful. So let's really empower also these customer success leaders to lead the communication and spread the information to marketing, to sales, to product going forward and really educate the entire organization to then feedback and then to you know, to create this feedback loop and to grow together. So this is what I think hopefully is helping uh, is um, developing as well. So um, but as I said it's a mindset shift and um, as a CS leader, I, I mean I think in our roles I am extremely excited because we can craft a lot of things. We can take folks on us with us now going forward. Uh, that's a great opportunity but it needs to have the right folks. It needs to have people like us who have this vision and also you know, the passion of doing it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Really interesting and completely right what you said Thomas. Right. But customer success should be everybody's you know, responsibility. But you know in the day to day activities of uh, you know, employees at a company, it's not so easy to know. You know, um, obviously the employees that our customer facing will you know, sort of have that responsibility. Um, I'm actually working with a client right now and one of the employees asked me right where does customer success responsibility end? Where is the sort of cutoff? I answered, you know, it doesn't really cut off. Right. It's everybody's responsibility. It should be a company wide um, wide responsibility. But in reality when you're you know, creating a customer journey and you are segmenting your customer base and you know, sort of uh, making this uh, you know, follow up plans and everything, it will be the customer success department who owns these activities. But it helps to have, have common KPIs, right? So sales and marketing and customer success and product have at least some common KPIs. I think that's, that's uh, the smart way to go. And I also liked what you said Thomas, about the feedback loop back to product. It sounds like a, you know, easy and simple thing but uh, it's difficult in practice, in the real life, whenever working with companies, it's not so easy always. So the product roadmap should be fueled by feature requests from, from, from customers. But it's not, I don't know why, but it's not always so easy to you know, uh, actually do this.

Speaker B: Completely agree. And this is maybe this is a human thing again, you know, and there's a, there's an ego coming through from product marketing, uh, product leaders or marketing leaders and like, oh, we want our own product map and this is what we do because this is we know the customer and uh, we just roll it out kind of thing. But as you know, this is interesting. I, I get this. Everyone has the ego. Great. But I think we need to orchestrate these egos and bring them together and to see, you know, it's great then ideally to make sure, you know, it's actually good to have a collaboration. So I'll give you one another example. What I um, really like to do is if, if you work with, if the CSMs work with sales folks, that's really, really important. This needs to be sponsored, you know, by the chief revenue officer, for example, who sales reports into, for example. Why is that important? Because I want really the customer success manager to report back to the sales folks in particular when it comes to acquiring the wrong icp. I understand sometimes you need the money and you, you know, you go for not ICP clients going forward. But I think that's a long term thing. You know, your CS department can always be good to just feed it back. And I think these conversations, this peer program really needs to happen. And if it's facilitated or sponsored by a chief revenue officer and if it's even tied to compensation, if you think about it, you get a bonus or you get an extra XYZ uplift on your comp. When you have these meetings with this outcome, then people will follow along. So you can create these structures as well, you know, to just force or to manipulate or to direct uh, behavior that you want to see when it comes um, to you know, go to market collaborations.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's a really great point. Incentives are you Know, obviously really important and powerful motivational drivers for different people. So, ah, that's a great point there, Tamus. Um, I think it would be interesting to hear if you have some advice for customer success teams or customer success professionals who want to succeed in customer success. Um, could you please m give us some insights there, Thomas?

Speaker B: Yeah, um, um, we touched upon this, I think as well. Um, I just came off a webinar that I was running with a, uh, um, career coach, um, the other day. And um, this topic was 5 find you north Star. And that was in particular for customer success managers. Find you North Star is basically a five, ah, step concept for everyone in customer success or generally who want to go back to what they really need. I think it's an important exercise that you need to go back and define what um, do you really want to do. In my profession when I work in customer success, what are the things that I really like, what gives me goosebumps, passion and so on. If you connect this with your um, values, for example, and if you have a mission statement going forward, that's really, really helpful. And I encourage everyone to just go back and do this exercise going forward because it's so important to understand in which direction you are going to go. Because it helps you to define yourself. It helps you define what is the value that you will bring to your future role, either at your company or at a different other company. And often, as I said, we feel, this is what I mean in this cris, you feel a bit overwhelmed. But if you go back and say like, this is what I do, this is what I can, this is, here's the proof of, um, why I'm successful. This is why it will help you. This is very important that we need to do this going forward. Just be clear on where's your heart. Are you a seller? Are you not a seller? I'm just being very kind of pragmatic here. Are you somebody who loves, um, product ideas and work with them? Are you more on the technical side? Do you really like to sell? Would you like to move into leadership? Or are you like, would you like to spread the word across the company more forward? Or for example, Ian Rev Ops, as you know, you know, these go to market engineers. This new role is becoming our thing where basically what we need is somebody who has an idea of what AI can bring in, but also connects the go the dots. So becoming a go to market engineer going forward is something that you really want to do. So define that, you know, and then bring it up. Be proactive. This is the thing. Be show, you know, the value that you can do by just looking what excites you. Um, and then it will eventually, blah, blah. That's a great exercise that you can do. Um, for example, and it's a quick one, really interesting.

Speaker A: And I think for all of our listeners, if you have any questions about customer success, I will link Thomas's, uh, information in the show notes. You can check him out, uh, on LinkedIn. Yeah, make sure to follow Thomas. A lot of, uh, interesting insights. And if you need some help with customer success, just, just, uh, uh, they can reach out to you, right, Thomas?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we are on LinkedIn, um, and that's the best way to get in touch and send me a DM. I do have, um, a company called the CS Academy, and that's the CSAcademy.net and that's the best way really to reach out. I'm always happy to chat and to answer any questions.

Speaker A: Great. I will link all your information in the show notes so people can check you out out. I'm sure we could speak for hours, uh, Thomas, but I think that's a great place to wrap up, uh, today's episode. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and experience. Really appreciate the time. Thomas.

Speaker B: Thank you very much, fajm, for having me and have a great day.

Speaker A: Thank you. And of course, thank you for listening, everybody. If you enjoyed the conversation, don't forget to subscribe and share this episode with others in the CS community. See you next time.