Cultural intelligence in customer success with Jomilsa Sousa

Jomilsa Sousa: It's quite funny because, um, in the UK there's this aspect of, you know, success is what you can repeat, for example, so if something goes really well for this client, then maybe we can repeat it by following the same steps with another client. And, you know, that's how playbooks are formed essentially. Whereas here it just doesn't work in that way. You can't repeat success in the same way as much as you try and replicate it. You can only repeat it to a certain extent. What will make that difference is all of the informal bits you don't see. So whether that's you going to see them m, your connection with them or who you know because of them. So.

Host: Hey Jamilza, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. How are you doing today?

Jomilsa Sousa: I'm good, thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Host: Oh, you're welcome. I'm really, really pleased to have you on because we're going to be talking about something really. I don't know, I think this ep, this topic is going to touch a lot of people. I think it's, it's not something we've actually discussed on the podcast before and I know I have seen conversations about this, but we're kind of going to be talking about the sort of cultural differences and the evolution of customer success. But in the Middle east, which is of course where you work and uh, if I'm correct, you're a customer success manager and you are based in Dubai.

Jomilsa Sousa: That's right, yeah. Have been here for about a year and a half now.

Host: Brilliant. And um, and previously you are, you know, UK based and uh, have worked in other. Yeah, you can, well you, you can tell the listeners that.

Jomilsa Sousa: So, yeah, I'm currently based in Dubai but I think, um, you know, it's, it's been a journey. I've been here for about a year and a half, but before that I was based in London and um, working as a CSM as well, but working across different companies that were based in the uk, but also based in the US and across Europe as well. So it's been a very interesting journey to just see the differences between each country, how CS has evolved over the last couple of years and you know, how functionalities work across different, uh, countries as well.

Host: Yeah, I mean, it's why I'm so excited to have you on M, because you, I imagine you're going to have a real insight to not only how CS has matured and evolved over the last few years, which it has, but also the fact you've worked with so many different touch points, you've worked with so many different, you know, international clients and you've kind of have that understanding of the, you know, there are real regional nuances here and real cultural nuances that I think POD probably don't get spoken enough about. And actually um, which I think is why this episode I think is going to be so fantastic. Because you know, let's, let's take, let's take your base in Dubai, part of the uae. The Middle east is not a monolith. Right. And you'll be working not only with clients in, I imagine, you know, you'll be working across the spectrum. So which would you be able to paint a picture for our listeners really about what the CS landscape looks like in the Middle East?

Jomilsa Sousa: And I'm using the Middle east in

Host: broad terms because as I just as you said, and you'll, you'll be able to, you'll be able to articulate this much more me. There we go. Case in point. Um, particularly from your, um, your vantage point, you're in Dubai, which is obviously in the uae, which is obviously sits within the Middle east or the gcc. Would you be able to, yeah, talk to us a little bit about that? And you know, what is so unique about this situation as a, you know, as a csm?

Jomilsa Sousa: That's a great question. I um, think sometimes, you know, people think of regions and think that every country within the region is the same or you can use the same playbook across all the different countries in the region. Pretty much in the same way that sometimes people speak about Europe and just expect all the countries to, you know, follow the same path. And when it comes to culture and when it comes to approach to cs, uh, with the Middle east, um, especially the gcc, um, you've got uh, the uae, which is where I am at the moment, you've got Saudi Arabia, Oman and a couple of other different countries. I think the major difference here is, um, communication is quite different across those different countries and the approach to CS can be quite different. So when we're talking about relationships for example, and how we approach that relationship with the customer, we find that sometimes um, depending on the country there's more of a tech approach where people prefer to be communicated via email for example, um, or you know, via phone for example. Um, whereas if you're looking at some countries such as Qatar for example, um, they appreciate more of a face to face approach and more of a relationship, ah, based approach. So it has been very interesting to kind of understand the nuances about how relationships work and how you form that connection, um, as a CSM across the Middle East. So yeah, it's um, very country dependent, very individual based as well. You have to have that adaptability to understand what different countries need, but also what different uh, companies need as well, depending on their size.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I mean what you just said then I think, I mean if you think about sort of the Middle east, again, I don't want to use it like a month, but you've got sort of real tech hubs like Dubai and I imagine in Riyadh as well. But then I guess other countries would you say, is it fair to say that like, like you mentioned Qatar are uh, operating on more like aren't quite at the sort of the scale as like as your Dubai is or your sort of Abu Dhabi is. Um, and I don't know, is it fair? I mean, please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it fair to say some, you know, some, some of those countries maybe you're operating on more sort of legacy structure and quite, not quite where, you know, Dubai and such are.

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, it's interesting because when you think about these jurisdictions, um, from like a general perspective, they're very technological, uh, technical, I can't say the word. Technologically driven. They're very technologically driven, um, and they have a big focus on tech and they're really forward thinking. But when it does come to relationship building, um, especially in Qatar for example, or Bahrain or Kuwait, um, your presence there means a lot more than just having that, you know, technological approach. So that's been interesting to witness. So as an example, I have customers in the UAE that they do love, you know, interacting with me in person, but they would rather get things sorted via email or via uh, phone call for example, and sometimes not even a phone call. Um, whereas in Bahrain if I'm you know, not picking up the phone, I'm never getting through to anyone or if I don't go and see them, there's a renewal that just won't take place, for example. So it really depends on the country. But know that relationship is so, so different according to the country. Um, and it, it does sit separately. You know, there is a big tech approach in terms of using technology, but in terms of communication it's very, very different.

Host: That is so interesting. I mean that must be a real, a bit of a head spinner like having to. Okay, right. I'm Jamilsa, I'm dealing with my um, uh, you know, I'm talking to my client in Dubai and now I'm going, you know, and then switch to my client in Bahrain. Like is that not, does that not take a bit of gearing up to do?

Jomilsa Sousa: It does, it does. Um, I think it's interesting purely because it's such a different mindset according to the different countries but also according to you know, um, the size of the business. But I think the most interesting aspect in it is the way you manage your time as well. So I think traditionally companies have a lot of budget towards um, you know, technology that allows you to essentially pick up on data for example and trends and more. Whereas here I think there needs to be a lot more budget on being able to fly out and see people or put on events for example to make sure you're more connected with people. So I think that's where the shift is. It's essentially, you know, most of my customers here, I can pick up the phone, speak to them and yes, I can see them. But very often if there's something you know, quite huge happening, such as like a renewal or maybe uh, a big opportunity, I need to be ready to you know, get up and leave and, and fly to go see them. So I think that's where the major difference is according to the different countries in the Middle East, I think.

Host: No, that's uh, so interesting I guess. But what you were just mentioning before about how it's, the communication isn't as tech driven for some of these clients but you are still, obviously there's a lot of tech focus. Obviously you are still, I'm assuming, data heavy and still be able to make you know, like decisions based, data driven decisions. But it's just the uh, sort of interpersonal uh, level that's still very much human first rather than tech touch.

Jomilsa Sousa: Exactly. Yeah. So um, there isn't much of a tech touch approach at the moment. I think, um, again it depends on the maturity of the business and the customer uh, that you're connecting with. There is more of a human level approach. So what that means for us is when you're approaching cs there tends to be a certain playbook maybe around how you navigate things or the different steps in a customer journey. And when you're taking more of a human led approach that can vary very, very quickly depending on the customer, depending on so many different things. So you have to be very ready to just change technique quite a lot, which is very interesting. Um, and I think that does take a lot of mental power sometimes when you're expecting things to go a certain way and you have to get up and change it a little bit. So that is really interesting. But I also think from like a data driven perspective, um, because things are a little bit more human led, it is a little bit more slow paced in the Middle east as well. Sometimes um, you have to be ready to kind of handhold clients a little bit to teach them how to adopt to the products that you're selling and the products that they have. So it is very different in terms of maybe some people in the uae, um, for example from a customer success perspective, um, they might be really um, technology driven, can pick up the products really, really quickly. Whereas someone else maybe who hasn't seen the technology or hasn't been exposed to some of the technology we're sell, um, in, in a different country, um, they might need some more handholding and you know, proper training in person training versus you know, um, an online session. So you do have to tailor your technique and approach a lot.

Host: Okay, that's, that's really interesting. But have you found then that um, because there is a slight like difference there and particularly for, I don't know, uh, for CSMs working in the UK or the US or in, or just in Europe, um, might not necessarily, I mean obviously some will, but some might not necessarily have this kind of like frame point, frame of reference. But do you find that um, because there was like a slight uh, almost a difference between, you know, you know, let me start out of it again because the hairs, um, perhaps maybe not as much. Is it, I wouldn't say tech literacy, but they're not as, they're not as perhaps tech focused or as some other companies. Would you say that some corporations, I don't know, aren't as familiar with CS in general? Is that fair enough to say? Is it more strict, is it more kind of like, I don't know, historically like more account management based? Is that fair or. I don't know, you lead the way.

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, of course, um, I think that's a really good way of thinking. So I would say there's more of a, um, you know, in these jurisdictions there's more approach in terms of them having their own technology. So when you're bringing technology that isn't really um, homegrown, it takes a little bit more to kind of pick up on. So I think in terms of the question you're asking, um, what that means for CS is you're not just doing the role of CS or the traditional role of CS as it looks in you know, Europe or the US or anywhere Else you tend to be um, wearing multiple hats such as support, for example onboarding implementation which sometimes sit separately but you tend to do it all to really get that relationship in there and for focus on everything and you're sometimes doing marketing and a little bit more so depending on the organization you work for, CS can look so, so different. But what I found here is that it does tend to focus one way or another. It tends to be more sales based which is, you know, more of that account management approach where you're doing most of the renewals, doing the upsells and more. And then from the other perspective where it tends to focus a little bit more around the onboarding and implementation of things. So it is split into those two functionalities I'd say. And I think it's because in the Middle east there is quite a heavy focus on growth and not so much on um, let's say customer outcomes. And I think it's purely due to the fact that I think CS is quite new in the Middle east, um, you know, newer than in other regions. So there is that focus on, you know, how can we retain our customers, how can we continue growing um, versus you know, how can we actually make sure that customers are getting their desired outcomes from what we're selling and we continue to retain them over time and help them grow a little bit quicker. So it's, you know, a different vision of CS here.

Host: Yes, I imagine that there's a lot of trying to get, you're still maybe at the stage of trying to get buy in for CS internally and try to sort of demonstrate the value of it.

Jomilsa Sousa: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I think there's a lot of tough discussions uh, depending on where you are on them on the ladder. So you could be like an individual contributor or you could be like a CS leader for example. And I think there's always that discussion of, you know, how do we prove ourselves, what is our functionality as cs? And that's why it does look so different even across, you know, Europe, US, Australia, etc. It is so different the way that CS looks I think because um, with the UAE specifically for example, there is quite a lot of startups at the moment. Most of CS is more based around how do we continue growing because we need to hit a certain number for funding, for example, um, whereas somewhere else that's you know, a little bit more mature or maybe focuses on, you know, businesses from that specific country, such as Kuwait for example, that maybe have the customers there and they want to focus on, you know, how can we Retain them instead of growing like we have the customer base, but how do we continue retaining them, making sure we don't lose anyone if there is more competition coming? So it does look very different depending on where you go. And that's why it's so important to be adaptable, especially if you're maybe a CS leader coming in. And it's important to understand that, you know, you might have some playbooks that already exist and you want to bring them forward, but it's important to understand that they won't always be successful. You do have to be very adaptable, um, in the way that you manage, um, CS as an organization and the way that you put your processes in place.

Host: Absolutely. How have you found though, when you're kind of, for example, you gave the Kuwait example there, where retention is the kind of. Is king there. And it's not so much about expansion. But first, perhaps for uh, you know, organizations that aren't as familiar with cs, I mean, talking about your client organizations, how do you, what kind of strategies have you found, um, effective that to introduce, I guess, cs, I guess cs, you know, CS as we know it to them, um, as opposed to, you know, sort of supports or traditional account management, um, to sort of show them. Yeah. The value of it in this kind of, you know, in the, in the modern sense of, as we know, customer success to be.

Jomilsa Sousa: Of course, yeah. Um, I think that's also a challenge. Right. Because they infused customer success with maybe customer support or just, um, generic sales as a whole. So I think there is an education piece there where, um, um, you know, as a business, you have to be aligned on what CS actually stands for and what they do so that you can reiterate that to your customers. But I think the first thing is actually taking it slow and understanding what the functionality of CS is internally, because it could be that for yourself, it's a little bit of support and a little bit of, uh, success and account management. So it's reiterating your function to the customer. So, you know, when you're introducing yourself, you're saying, I'm your main point of contact for this, this and that. So as an example, if you have this incident, you can still come to me. If you have this incident, you can go to the other person. So it's essentially giving them examples of where they would use the customer success team and where they would use another team, for example. But also it's again through that relationship building, um, it's again going to see them and reiterating your function, showing them what your function is and taking it steps at a time. It could be that, you know, from the moment they join, they only need someone to support them with an issue they're having, for example. So it means that for that second, you have to be support and then guide them towards the success function. Where it's like, okay, this is an issue here, we're going to fix it. But, you know, now that that's fixed, let's actually focus on how we can engage with the product and how we can make sure you're happy with the product, but also how you can get that return on investment from the product. So it's, you know, being the person they need you to be in that moment and then guiding them to the actual functionality that you're there to do.

Host: So many different hats, I think involved in your, in your job particularly. I mean, I know CSMs do wear a lot of hats. Um, but yeah, extra hat changing in your role, it sounds like, which sounds really interesting and it's definitely, definitely keep you on your toes. Um, but I think what we've kind of, I think what's been kind of like a current running throughout this discussion so far is I think we've sort of touched on infrastructure, but I think what's been, I think we haven't really honed in on yet is the, the cultural differences. You're not just working with, um, I don't know, uh, one country, you're working with lots of different countries which all kind of have very different requirements. And I think perhaps it's like, I don't know, maybe it's a bit, uh, ignorant of, I don't know, maybe like, uh, more Western CSMs or CSMs working in the US or thinking, oh, like you were talking about how Europe kind of can sometimes look a bit like a monolith. Oh, you know, so the attitudes of, uh, CSMs in France will be very different to, uh, sort of more Eastern European countries. But, um, yeah, I think what I'd like to just sort of pivot to now is understanding the different cultural norms, um, because communication is obviously such an important, well, important part for your job, but it is like the bedrock of customer success as well. You cannot be a good CSM without being a good communicator. Um, but you know, these kind of cultural norms do shape, um, you know, discussions like you said, you know, expansion opportunities, renewal, um, you know, and what works, I guess, with the U.S. audience, uh, or over in Europe would very well could fall flat over in the Middle East. So I guess really, I'D like to understand a bit. You know, are there any, you know, with such a diverse client base, um, are there any specific, yeah, specific communication styles or, um, relationship with building techniques that you've kind of, you've noticed are particularly effective? You know, 18 months you've last. You've been in, in Dubai for. That's uh, you know, anything that you would like to share with our listeners?

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, um, I think the first thing that I think got to me a little bit in the beginning is um, understanding that the work days are a little bit different in the Middle east versus, um, the uk for example. So in the UK we work Monday to Friday m. As we do in the uae. However, in other countries across the uae, such as Saudi Arabia or even Qatar, they actually work Sunday to Thursday, I believe it is, um, and have. Ah, sorry, not Sunday. Yeah, Sunday to Thursday. So they have Friday and Saturday off. And that's also really important when you're trying to communicate with someone or trying to schedule, you know, a visit. Because sometimes it could be that you've got um, you know, an important piece of communication to communicate with them and you're emailing them maybe on a Friday, thinking, okay, they'll get this on the Monday and we'll talk about it on the Monday. And no, they work day actually starts on a Sunday. So you do have to think about that in terms of how you communicate. If you want them to see something, you know, as soon as they get into work, maybe schedule your messages, for example, um, or maybe if you want, um, something to be done by the end of the week, remember that their end of the week is not the same end of the week for you. So, um, it's making sure that you communicate on the right days and um, that you take into account cultural differences. So for countries that do work on a Friday, and sometimes they finish way earlier than um, you know, traditionally. So sometimes they can start at 8 and finish up 1. So you have to bear in mind that there is that difference that you have to take into consideration when you're communicating, uh, communicating or even planning events as well sometimes. Um, so there's that aspect of things, but there's also the aspect, like I mentioned of, you know, country to country. There is that thing of, um, building relationships, but it tends to be a little bit more informal. Here is what I'd say you tend to find, focus on things, um, you know, commercial discussions and more. But over dinner, for example, it could be that you're going out for dinner or maybe, um, just catching up over Tea or coffee. That tends to lead conversations a lot more than you formally going into the office and having discussions about, um, commercials, for example. So I think in the Middle east, connections are very important. You need to be well connected. People need to understand who you are and, uh, make sure that you're trustworthy, but they also need to know who you are as a person and not just, you know, as this professional person, if that makes sense. So I think it is a little bit more informal here in terms of the connections that you have, and that tends to go, uh, a longer way than formalities.

Host: That's so interesting to me. I think. I don't know, because it feels, I love the sound of it. It sounds like something. It sounds from like a, I don't know, you know, a time where, yeah, business meetings were conducted. Like you. Were you invited, you know, your business partners or your clients to, uh, family events and things like that. It don't. You don't really hear as much of, of that over in the UK or the. All parts of the US or at least I don't from conversations I have with people, which is, like, really quite a refreshing thing to hear.

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, it's funny you say that because I, um, was at one of my clients wedding, um, and one of my clients. Yeah, it's only been a year and a half, but, um, yeah, that's how close people tend to be here. And I think it's purely because, um, you know, speaking of Dubai specifically, a lot of people come here with no one else, or they come here with just maybe one person, such as their partner or, you know, a family member. So you tend to be a lot more connected to the people that you meet out here, um, than you would be anywhere else is what I would say. Um, so you tend to form stronger connections and, you know, your clients end up being your friends or, you know, very important people in your life. So it does make a big difference to be a little bit more informal in approach than formal.

Host: Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's. It's. It's just quite warming to hear that, because obviously, I mean, we're not into this, but like, you know, obviously there are so many conversations in the last few years about AI. What's this mean for my job? AI is going to sell my job. And I think definitely something we're working on in marketing is, yes, there will be some things that get replaced by AI, but obviously the things you really need to hone on are your interpersonal skills and like, like this, you know, that that element can't really be, it can't be replaced. So I think what you're doing is clearly like safeguard, safeguarding your role for the future. And also it's clearly such a fundamental part of customer success. So I don't know, it's just quite interesting if you hear all these conversations on LinkedIn and you see these scaremongering posts, but actually what you're doing is, no, you're. Particularly for the Middle east, you're absolutely, you're absolutely fine. AI is not coming for your job at all.

Jomilsa Sousa: Exactly. It's quite funny because, um, in the UK there's this aspect of, you know, success is what you can repeat, for example, so if something goes really well for this client, then maybe we can repeat it by following the same steps with another client. And you know, that's how playbooks are formed essentially. Um, whereas here it just doesn't work in that way. You can't repeat success in the same way as much as you try and replicate it. Um, you can only repeat it to a certain extent. What will make that different is all of the informal bits you don't see. So whether that's you going to see them, your, you know, connection with them or who, you know because of them. So yeah, it's been really interesting to see that, you know, it's not so much as a technological approach, but a human LED one. But when we are talking about things like technology and data, there is still that aspect of, you know, platforms being able to assist us with helping our customers better or AI being able to assist us with helping our customers better. It just means it's not at the forefront of things, but assisting us more with giving them the knowledge they need and not replacing the um, the actual connection we have with our clients?

Host: Yeah, absolutely. No, I think it's such an important point. Um, I also think, um, again, another sort of current throughout this episode have been, as well as the cultural differences between um, different countries and our kind of how CSMs, uh, have to adapt. I think another thing we spoke about when talking what's this episode going to be on and how can we, you know, what we'd like to talk about was the sort of contrast between these sort of enterprise, uh, companies and startups and you know, you, you have worked for um, uh, you know, across various regions. But do you find that there is a big difference between um, how custom success is approached and executed and you know, and particularly how do you find that in the Middle east, for example, you know, are there notably notable distinctions? Um, and discrepancies between how customer success is actually carried um, out. You know, as somebody working in the Middle east and having your experience in a variety of different sorts of uh, sort of companies.

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, this is a really um, interesting question. Um, and it's one that we see quite a lot. So here in the Middle east we have a customer success group where we meet up and discuss ideas. And um, one of the major things that we see all the time, especially in startups is, you know, at what point do we start scaling, at what point do we introduce technology, at what point do we do this and that? Whereas when you're looking at like a global business for example, there tends to be more things set in place and there tends to be opposite issues. So where a global business has all of their playbooks in place, all of their technology in place, um, there's not as much room for flexibility in terms of adapting to what clients need or what we need to continue, um, you know, successfully making our clients happy. Whereas in a startup they have all the flexibility but potentially not as much budget to actually work on. Some of the things that they need to work on such as having the uh, platform that gives them all the data they need for example, um, to make decisions for clients and you know, follow through with these conversations. So I think that's been quite interesting. But even when we're uh, talking about budget from a startup perspective, they understand that there are, you know, competitors in the market and I think they do throw quite a lot of money towards making themselves unique, um, you know, keeping up with competitors, keeping up with the times, uh, making sure that they have everything they need to essentially stand out. Um, so I think that's an area where they spend a lot of time investing in and training their CSMs, um, in terms of what the unique features of their platform um, is. Whereas I think in global businesses it tends to be more of a uh, product led approach when it comes to cs. So all the investment goes towards the product and not so much in terms of, you know, what the return on investment is or what the unique value is. So it does tend to differ a lot where from a startup perspective it's more project based, um, I'd say the customer success approach where you're looking at what the client wants to get out of the product or the software. Um, whereas with an enterprise business it tends to be, be more of this is the product, um, you know, what can the customer get out of it. And the focus here is with a big enterprise it tends to be a product that maybe has come out of the U.S. or the U.K. for example, or Europe and it's just repurposed for the Middle east, but not so much tailored to the Middle East. Whereas with a startup organization it does tend to be a little bit more tailored um, towards the different countries that you're selling into. So there tends to be different focuses from, ah, I'd say a company perspective and a CS perspective as well.

Host: That's so interesting. I think also what we were speaking about um, when we last spoke about this episode was um, the difference in um, I guess. Do you think the difference in market as well, the fact that Middle east is a very different, a cultural difference when you started working over in Dubai?

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, I think the major difference here is um, with the UK you kind of understand who your customers are. Nice and easy to understand the pattern and what they need. Um, here, yes, there are so many, um, law firms, um, but there's also kind of in house clients. So organizations that also, you know, have their own lawyers and need the legal platform. So I think the difference here is we have products for example, that are US based and have been shifted here for example. That makes so much sense to maybe our international clients that have used us in the past for the US and uk, but they need to be reintroduced to people that maybe haven't seen them before and are more locally focused, for example. So there tends to be a shift in terms of the experience you can give each person because for someone that's used it in the past, you're probably more focusing on, you know, how can we um, focus on return, on investment, whereas you know, someone that's completely new to the product, you're more focusing on, okay, how can we onboard you and keep you engaged with the product and making sure that you're happy with the product and more. So there is that different approach I think from a sales perspective as well. It's um, because it's been around in the UK and us for such a long time, there's less of like a reselling aspect when it comes to renewal. Like they already know what they're getting. You can kind of reiterate the point to them. Whereas I think here in the Middle east, um, although we have been around for a very long time, it is still new um, in the Middle east market. And although we're the leading software platform when it comes to legal, there is still that aspect of needing to resell every single time you speak to the same client, reiterating the value, making sure they understand, you know, what's unique about us and why they need to continue their subscription. So I'd say because of the market being so new and there is a lot of like selling elements and like marketing elements, there's more focus on events here than there is um, in the uk. So the UK it's more of a traditional account manager customer success role and whereas here there is that element of you have to market it a little bit more, you have to put on more events for example, whether that's in person or online. So the, the role itself does tend to be a little bit different in terms of taking more of a sales led approach than a uh, CS approach.

Host: Interesting. So is it fair to say that the market comparison, comparison to where it is in the UK is a bit, that little bit more volatile perhaps? And you do have to, I don't know, there is more I guess term prevention because I guess a lot of clients, well they don't maybe even though you've been over in the Middle east for uh, luxoness for a while, but it's a bit more of a chance like right, we need to retain these clients a bit more. Whereas it's a different, it's a different conversation would you say over in, in the uk.

Jomilsa Sousa: What I can say for you know, other businesses and my understanding of when I speak to other CSMs in the market is, is that it is very volatile here so things can change in any second. Um, especially around like regulations for example. Regulations change quite a lot in the UAE specifically. Um, so you have to be kept up to date around things that you can do, can't do, things that you've got to change around the way that you operate for example. And um, so it is very volatile in that way, even down to the way that you sell for example, um, especially again because of the competition. There's always competition coming in every single day, you know, new competitors in the market, which means you have to change your way of being um. And so you know, something that is set out in stone in terms of your practices. You might have to change that down the line because you're taking a different strategy, um, because of the way the market is, it's just up and down a lot. So it might also mean that you start off with that, you know, role as a csm, but because of the needs of the market you're now also doing um, you know, marketing for example and support. So it does change quite a bit. Um, but it also just depends on the size of the organization. I ah, do find that you tend to wear A lot more hats when you are working for a startup versus an enterprise company. But I will say when you are working for like a large company in maybe a new location where, you know, it's still quite new. So the Middle east, for example, you do tend to operate like a startup within a large organization, which is also like a different environment to be in because you've got, you know, the regulations, you've got the budget, you've got everything else, but you don't have the structure. And sometimes you need to work on the structure or like understanding, you know, the customer journey itself because it's so different to maybe what the customer journey looks like in the uk. So it's very different but also very similar. But you also just have to tailor it to your experience. Um, and just on that, actually, um, I think one of the major differences as well when you are working for like a large organization is, um, there are like a lot of hoops to jump if you do want to tailor something. So like I mentioned, what works in the UK might not work in the Middle east and you do have to tailor your processes sometimes. So if you do want to tailor that, you know, you do have to, you know, maybe go back to someone in the UK and, you know, get their advice on that or, you know, get their permission to do things, um, or wherever, you know, the company is based. Um, whereas I think if you're working for maybe like a startup, it's easier for you to be a little bit more adaptable and agile and change your ways of being. So it's very different, um, depending on your organization, depending on the structure, depending on the maturity of the business as well.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. Because I imagine, yeah. Like you're saying if you're in a startup, there's a, you know, usually a flatter hierarchy. You can kind of, you can get things done, I guess, quicker. But it's also, even though that's, that's a benefit, there are obviously a lot of cons because you don't necessarily have the data, you don't have the resources, for example. But do you think. So talking about changing, uh, your sort of tact of your CS strategy to m. Sort of meet the sort of, you know, we're talking about the validity of the. That's not a word validity. Yeah, let's go with it. Of the market, um, how. And you've got to go through, I guess, the UK office to sort of, you know, chat. Have I picked that? Right? You kind of talk through your sort of changing strategy then.

Jomilsa Sousa: Uh, yeah. So not specifically with the UK office, but collaborates with responsible, um, it's just not in the Middle east essentially. But you would have to speak to different offices essentially to make sure that you're aligning in the right way and that you know, you have that flexibility. So it could be on a case basis, it could be that, you know, I've got a customer that um, for example needs for me to visit them, let's say four times a year, for example. That's something that needs to be agreed upon. And it's not, it's not just like a one rule fits all, for example, for every customer in Qatar, for example. I can't do that for every single customer. So there needs to be, you know, some agreeance, um, on a case by case basis is what it is sometimes, which can be a little bit time consuming sometimes it could mean that sometimes you maybe have a timeline to work to, um, and sometimes you might miss that timeline because you know, there are a lot of hoops to jump through and that goes with every global organization. Um, whereas in a startup it's a lot easier for you to turn around and say, okay, let's do this. And it's purely because there's sometimes less clients, uh, less people to speak to about your decision. So there's a quicker uh, turnaround time to actually make decisions and get things in motion.

Host: It just reminded me when you were saying this because I speaking to somebody a couple of years ago and uh, they worked in um, South America and um, I don't reveal what they were, but they were saying how they worked for a very large, you know, global company. Um, but their America, which is an American company, the American sort of parent company, let's say, didn't quite understand the cultural nuances needed of this per this CSM in this, in this, in this South American country. And it was quite a bit of a, at points, it was a bit of a battle because they were, they were hoping that they were going to work off their American playbook, um, and didn't quite understand the changes. So when you were saying, oh, you know, we need to change tax, we need to change our CS strategy, we talk through, I'm just wondering, I mean,

Jomilsa Sousa: how does that work?

Host: I'm assuming that is there a better kind of cultural understanding of Middle Eastern, you know, needs and the sorts of uh, different countries needs, you know, because I can imagine that speaking to this person, it was quite frustrating to not have that support and then not to understand the cultural differences compared to a

Jomilsa Sousa: U.S. yeah, I think it's a little bit different for us because we, um, work across so many different countries and so many different, um, you know, jurisdictions as a whole. So there's this thing of, you know, maybe it started off in a specific country and we've expanded to, let's say, Asia, we've expanded to, etc. So because they've done this before, they kind of know what to look out for when you are moving into a new market. So they are very understanding of, you know, cultural nuances. I think what's amazing is that there is that space for you to vocalize maybe what it is that each country needs or what you need to actually be successful in each country, whether that's from a sales perspective, a CS perspective, marketing, etc. So there is that space to also speak about things, but there is that aspect of, you know, if it works in this country, why can't it work here, for example? So there is more of, like an educational approach, um, when it comes to cs, um, in the Middle east, where it's kind of like the tables flip a little bit and the CSMs, the people on the ground, have to kind of educate maybe our leaders that aren't in the Middle east around how things work here or what works here and what doesn't work here, or maybe what some of the challenges are. So I think we're quite lucky in terms of, you know, everyone being quite receptive and, uh, being really good when it comes to the educational piece. But I think the challenge here is, again, it's that time to actually be agile. How long will it take for us to be, um, you know, to put the motion in play, for example. So if we need to change tactics, that might take a couple of weeks, a couple of months, for example. And, um, even though they're accepting of the cultural differences and, you know, that the challenges there, um, it just takes a while to pick up on it and understand what the impact of those challenges are and how we can, how we can align on them.

Host: Oh, honestly, this has been such an interesting episode, I think, and I think particularly for any, um, anyone listening who is, I don't know, thinking about making a move over to the Middle east and thinking about a change, or even not necessarily just the Middle east, but maybe, you know, a different market, like you're saying, um, just to sort of wrap things up a little bit, what you've been in this role in, in Dubai for a year and a half now, um, what if you, based on what you've learned, which it sounds like a hell Of a lot. What one piece of advice would you give? Um, somebody who might have been Jamilsa 18 months ago, making the first journey and you know, and I don't know what, how much, I mean, I should have asked this at the beginning. How much did you. How much about the Middle Eastern market did you know at the time? Did you know really what you were kind of fully getting yourself into? No, not at all.

Jomilsa Sousa: Without even having visited once. So very. Wow. Wow.

Host: Yeah, I meant so much. What would you, what, what piece of advice would you give to somebody who is perhaps where you were 18 months ago or thinking about it?

Jomilsa Sousa: Absolutely. Um, I would probably say, I know this sounds a little bit wild, but, you know, nothing, um, everything that you knew, um, you know about CS for example, or, ah, you know, just in general customers, um, of course, you know stuff, but it doesn't mean that it will translate in the same way, um, in the Middle East. So there's a lot to learn. I probably also say don't look at maybe challenges as failure. It's just redirection. Like you have to pick up on, um, customs, culture, the way people work and understand that not everything is going to work just because it did work in the UK or US or et cetera, etc. Um, so I'd say it's a very big learning curve and the main thing is to actually understand and sit down with people that have worked here, understand what their challenges have been, what their pain points have been and what has been successful. So I think if I had to share that one piece of advice is come in as if you know nothing and just listen to other people's experience and take in everything for them because, yeah, they've, they've seen what makes everything successful and they'll be able to help you with your journey. Brilliant.

Host: Yeah. So just be a sponge, just soak it all in.

Jomilsa Sousa: Brilliant.

Host: And, um, final question. Are there any, um, emerging trends across the region that you're excited about in the next year or two? Um, is there anything that you kind of. Like we said, you know, CS is an ever changing game and particularly in the Middle East, a lot of pivoting is required. Is there anything that you kind of, you and your colleagues are kind of thinking, oh, or you are excited about for the next few years?

Jomilsa Sousa: Yeah, I think it's um, CS platforms. I don't think we see too much of that at the moment because there isn't as much of a customer success trend here as there was in the UK or US and et cetera. So I think it's more like using data, like generated data already, um, to make decisions because at the moment things are quite manual across nearly all of the organizations here. You tend to have platforms support you with that, but not the actual CS journey. Um, you know, it tends to be more sales led or more, let's say marketing led. So um, I think it's platforms being able to like have all the data you need, being able to um, kind of map out what the customer journey will look like. So aspects like that, but also AI within the CS platforms as well is one thing that we're, we're all really excited about because like I mentioned, everything is quite manual at the moment. It is very time consuming. That'll be a big relief. Yeah, exactly. We can focus more on, you know, actually showing return on investment instead of actually just, you know, gathering all the data we need. So, um, yeah, that's, that's an exciting aspect that we're all looking forward to.

Host: Oh, ah, brilliant. Well, hopefully that'll free up a lot of time and you can actually focus a bit more on, you know, the parts of, the, parts of the relationships that you actually or the role that you really want to hone in on a bit more. But yeah. Oh, excited. Well, that's it for this episode. But thank you so much, Jamilsa for joining me. Um, I've loved talking to you. I found this such an interesting episode. Um, and I had no idea. It was just. Yeah, I mean obviously I had no idea. I've never worked in the Middle east and I've only been. Only been once. But I think. Yeah, what an eye opening episode and I'm sure lots of people are gonna absolutely love this episode because it's touched on so many important things, you know, from infrastructure to. Yeah, the, the so many cultural nuances and just the relation, the communication element. Um, I just hadn't really thought about that before, you know, coming into this, coming into this topic with, you know, completely, you know, now my eyes are open so in. Fantastic. Thank you so much.

Jomilsa Sousa: I'm glad. Hopefully it's useful. But thank you so much for having me, Grace. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Host: Oh, thank you so much. And um, yeah, if anyone wants, I mean if anyone wants to reach out to you, uh, where's the best place to connect to? Talk about LinkedIn.

Jomilsa Sousa: Absolutely. LinkedIn would be ideal. Yeah, it's just my name. Um, you can search it up on LinkedIn and connect with me. Brilliant.

Host: What I'll do is I'll leave it in the show notes and anyone who has any questions or maybe wants to reach out based on this episode, they can do that. So thank you very much Milsa and you have a great day.

Jomilsa Sousa: Thank you. Grace.

Host: Thanks for tuning in.

Jomilsa Sousa: Be sure to check out our other episodes and go to the Customer Success

Host: Collector for even more customer success related content. You can also join our global community on Slack and you can find the link to that on the CSC website. But until then, see you next time.