Linda Fisher with Cardinal Insurance Group

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to The Labcast by IAWA with your host, Captain Dave Jackson.

Speaker B: Hey, hey, hey all, uh, you collab cast listeners. Isn't Captain Dave Jackson coming to you some an absolutely sunny Hendersonville, Tennessee. We've got about 65 and sunny today. It's gorgeous. It's spring weather in February is when we're recording. And uh, I can't, I can't really say I can complain too much because it's really, really beautiful today. I want to welcome, uh, our guest today, Linda Fisher. Linda is from the good state of Michigan. She's from up north Traverse City area, which is a beautiful area if any of you had a chance to go there. Linda, welcome to collabcast.

Speaker A: Thanks Dave. Glad to be here.

Speaker B: I gotta admit, I have never been to Traverse City.

Speaker A: You're missing out. It's a beautiful area.

Speaker B: I've been to the up the Upper Peninsula for those who don't know, but I came in from like the Canadian side and then we try, I think trek. This is years ago. I might have been in high school. And then we trekked back through Wisconsin. I remember that part. Down um, down the highway along the coast, uh, Thunder Bay down to Duluth, that whole neck of the woods. But um, never been to TC as I like to call it. But um, you were just telling me before we went on air that you guys are having an unusually warm winter.

Speaker A: It's crazy. Yeah, we only had a month of winter. A month. It didn't snow until January and it's gone and it's, you know, 50 and raining. It's just really strange and huh. Not good. No places.

Speaker B: And for those that don't know, your area is known as the ski capital of the state.

Speaker A: So it is. There's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot of places to go skiing and snowboarding and all snowmobiling. A lot of snowmobilers and trails and stuff here and they're all dead right now. Races, you know, snowmobile races that are put on.

Speaker B: Right, right. So you guys are relying on snow.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm glad it's not here but.

Speaker B: But those in that industry are crying the blues right now. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, thanks for being on, uh, you've been a long time member of ioa. I don't know, I didn't even look it up, honestly. Probably close to the beginning it was

Speaker A: when I. Yeah, I'm not even sure how you guys found me because I got an in invitation to join and there were 200. I remember there were 262 members, so. Holy Cow you guys hadn't had, you hadn't had your first IOOA yet.

Speaker B: Nope.

Speaker A: The conference that you had there.

Speaker B: So we started, you know, we just celebrated our uh, 10 year anniversary a week ago.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So late January of 14. So sometime during 14 we could have got to the 200 some member mark because when we first met was in January of 15.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: In California and I think we were several hundred members at that point. So. Yeah. And then our next year was our first true conference in San Antonio. I think you made it to that one.

Speaker A: I spoke at that one. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yep, yep. Very cool. So you're an og.

Speaker A: Yes. For being so.

Speaker B: Makes me sound old too. So anyway, thanks for coming on. Uh, I know people are going to want to hear who are listening. They're going to hear about your background in insurance because it's basically all you've done in your career. Yeah, me too. It's the only industry I know. But my number one question I ask every guest is how did you didn't plan for insurance? Am I right? I don't know too many people that do. It's usually accidental some way shape or form. So give us your story. How did you land in the insurance industry?

Speaker A: So I answered an ad right after high school I decided not to go to college and answered an ad to answer phones at an insurance agency to help pay for the local college. I didn't go away to college but my game plan was to go to away to a college and I decided not to do that. And so I answered an ad to answer phones at an insurance agency and after eight months of answering phones he made me a csr and about six months after that I was a sales producer and was a 100% commission producer from the age of 20 until I started my own agency 20 years ago. So and that's what it was started.

Speaker B: That's ah, a rough start. I mean that's not a traditional way of getting into the business.

Speaker A: Zero draw, zero salary, calling people while they're having dinner, calling from the phone book back then, you know, from five to seven I make phone calls every night, every day, five to seven, five days a week, four days a week. We didn't do Friday, so but I so business that way.

Speaker B: Did you do your office work job and then do producer work After I

Speaker A: did three days a week, I did the calls after I would work and he'd let me come in, I'd come in later, I'd come in at 10 o' clock instead of 8 o' clock on those days and stay till 7.

Speaker B: And the purpose of doing that was so you could earn money to go to college.

Speaker A: It was. I was going to call, I was working full time and then going to college either two nights, depending on the call schedule, or four nights a week as an honor. And I was a double honor student, so. And I had a double major. So yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. I did that for two years. And then I thought, I'm putting myself through all this, newly married and, you know, college plus working full time plus, and said, I love this industry. I really did. I fell in love with insurance pretty quickly and just said, why am I taking these college courses?

Speaker B: Is your story as to why you love the industry? The same as what I hear from most all people. You just have a love for helping people.

Speaker A: I do. I have a love for helping people. And I also love the challenge of figuring it all out. What can happen, who can sue, what can. What are your premises, exposures, what you know, I love large commercial accounts with several entities where I can just figure it all out. How's it going to play out? Where are your exposures? I love that challenge of digging in and figuring it all out. And then just very cool, just explaining that to people who've never really been kind of taken care of in insurance. They've just been sold a product.

Speaker B: So I'm going to make a preposition here, or supposition. So you worked for this agency for 20 years before you started your.

Speaker A: Nope. I worked for them m. For four years. And then I had a headhunter came and found me and hired me away to a large agency. I was in a nearby. I wasn't in Traverse City then. I was in a nearby town like 20 miles from here. And, uh, this headhunter found me because I was writing commercial and personal lines, insurance and writing quite a bit of it, and hired, uh, me away for a large agency and uh, worked for them until they got bought out and then worked for that employer until I left and started my own. Uh, 20 years ago this July, actually. I started my agency from scratch.

Speaker B: Yeah, I noticed, um, according to my notes here, 19, uh, years and eight months. So you're just a few months away from your 20 year anniversary.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So the, the uh, impetus for you to leave and say, here's what I'm thinking. You probably said, you know, why should I do this work for someone else when I can do it for myself? Is that why you went and started your own?

Speaker A: No, I started my own because the decisions that were being made, I didn't agree with. Uh, and a third of the clients were my clients. And I stepped up and said, how do I become an owner? How do I buy in? And the two men that owned the agency, one with half my experience, both said, you can't for another ten years. Um, and it's not that they were doing things wrong, but they would do things that, in my opinion, were not to the benefit of the insured, but were to the benefit of the agency. And so there were just several things that had happened. Clients of mine sent away that came with their checkbook and ready to sign an application, and the agency would send them away because they didn't have an appointment. So decisions like that, that I just. They went through this phase where they said, we're like, uh, we're like a doctor's office, and if you don't have an appointment, you can't see us. So just different decisions like that that I just didn't think were in the best interest of the client, and I didn't agree with. And I wanted to say I at least wanted to vote. And when they flat out told me no, I'd have to wait another 10 years, and I had already been doing it, you know, for 16 years. That didn't work for me.

Speaker B: So why another 10 years? Was that their arbitrary, uh, number? Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'm not sure why, because the one owner actually married the owner's daughter, and he had nine years to my 16, and he still thought I needed 10 years of experience before I'd be ready to be an owner. So. And it's fine. It worked out for the best. I've excelled at this. But, um, it was a difficult situation. And here's the thing. When you go to start on your own agency, I never really thought of the whole aspect of being an employer and, um, a mentor and a boss. Right. It was just writing insurance, writing clients. And so that was my biggest struggle. It wasn't opening the agency, really getting appointments, that was difficult, but it wasn't what it is today. Um, it was learning to be a leader and being somebody people wanted to work for. That's been my long journey to really figure that out.

Speaker B: Good for you. So am I right in that your agencies, before you started your own, they were independent agencies, correct?

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: So you never had the captive world experience? Okay, so when you decided to go out on your own, was it a, uh, given you were going to start an independent agency, or did you even consider the captive side?

Speaker A: I was actually approached. So I took about six. Six months just to Be with, uh, m. You know, our son at the time was an infant baby. And so I took about six months just to be home and be a mom and traveled a little bit with my husband then and with the baby, and just kind of took some time to figure this out. How do I build an agency? And I did get recruited and called by a few Farm Bureau. A farm Bureau agent, particular State Farm, a farmer's agent. And they all wanted me to at least come talk to them. So I did. I gave them the courtesy of that. And you know what I told the one here in town was, at the end of the day, there are clients with me today that have been with me since I started in my career, but they're not with the same company I had them with when I started my career, but they're still with me. And I can say that today, I can say that I still have 11 out of 14 clients that have been with me since 1988. And none of them are with the same company, but they're all with me. So, uh, that's the big, big plus of an independent agency.

Speaker B: Okay, so you knew that going in. So it was pretty much a foregone conclusion. You're going to remain an independent.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay, so back then, 20, almost 20 years ago, what was it like going out, securing carrier appointments? Did you know the carriers you needed?

Speaker A: I did, and I. I really had it much easier than some people because I served on our local state board, so the carriers knew me. They knew who I was. They knew my history and my background. And I was very. You know, I served on young agents. I chaired young agents. I was in the executive state board for the state of Michigan for the insurance industry. So I knew the players, and they knew me. That didn't lead to direct appointments right away. It took me. Our biggest carrier is auto owners, and I approached auto owners, and again, they knew me, and they turned me down flat.

Speaker B: And everybody listening, see there?

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, the president said, I know that you write quality business, but I don't know that you know how to run a business. And it was hard to hear that,

Speaker B: but he was kind of funny that that matters to them. To me, it's kind of funny.

Speaker A: Yeah, it. Well, and I get it to a certain point, because if you get an appointment with a company like that and then you can't handle your agency and you know the m. Finances and the. You know what I mean? It could be a nightmare. So I get it. But as somebody who was as young as I was and who was, um, Thinking it would be a breeze to get appointments because they know me. It was a tail between the legs. I cannot believe he said no to me. And I went back after it eight months later and um, was in line with four other agencies. There were five of us up for that appointment. And I did get it after about three months of interviews with everybody. But. But it wasn't automatic. But I did not, uh, you know, I looked into like siaa and at the time SIAA had. And I know they have different deals for the years and different sections and

Speaker B: stuff depending on their math.

Speaker A: M. Exactly. But at the time when I looked at all the paperwork, you had to be a part of it for 10 years. And if you wanted to buy out after 10 years, you had to pay them 50% of the value of your agency. And I said I just wanted to dance a while. I didn't want to get married, I just wanted to dance for a few years and then buy out.

Speaker B: That's a little heavy.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's yeah, 50% of buying back. Why wouldn't I have a partner if I'm going to do that? So, um, so I struggled. I didn't have anywhere to put high net worth clients at the time. So for about eight months I only had three carriers in my agency. So.

Speaker B: See that just goes to show you, you don't need 10, 20, 100 agents, uh, carriers. You don't need that to get started.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Right now.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Five carriers.

Speaker A: We do. We have five main carriers. I mean we have access to, you know, like.

Speaker B: Right, right.

Speaker A: Your one off and stuff. Yeah. But five main carriers and that's, that's plenty for us, you know, six agents. That's great.

Speaker B: Right, right. So who are those five carriers?

Speaker A: Auto Owners is the largest one. Auto Owners, Pioneer State Mutual, um, Hastings Mutual, Progressive and Wolverine Mutual. So three of them are Mutual.

Speaker B: Three of those five are Mutuals Mutual carriers unique to the state of Michigan.

Speaker A: Um, right. One of them is in Michigan region. Yeah, yeah. They're domiciled here. Yeah, three of them are domiciled here.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that again, that's a good point. That shows you here's an agency like you that doesn't need all the Nationals.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You can do. I mean Auto Owners is uh, pretty much national.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But uh, obviously Progressive is. But you don't need all the safecos and the Travelers Liberties and the Nationwide and you know, all the big Hartfords. All the big ones, uh, to manage an agency successfully because I know you run a very successful agency. So for those who don't know. Give us a snapshot of your agency. What does your agency look like in terms of size, in terms. You just told us how many carriers? Uh, you can tell us in terms of employees, premium, uh, policy count. What's that all look like?

Speaker A: Yep. So we've got six licensed agents now. I just hired the six. Sixth one. So we have six licensed agents, but that includes my son who does our, it, our analytics, our website stuff. And he's also an agent, um, that sells some small personal lines. Um, we have two full time virtual assistants and we'll be bringing a third back that we had before. We'll be bringing her on this, um, September. So three virtual assistants who truly do act as full time assistants for the agents. We have, um, just over 2,000 clients. Clients. And we have, um, Our policy count is 2.2 policies per client is what we average. Um, and a large portion of our client base is more of the white collar, higher net worth and probably 20%, um, are seasonal, reside in another state and have a seasonal cottage or home on the water here.

Speaker B: Gotcha. How much of your policies, how many of your policies are based in Michigan?

Speaker A: Probably 70 to 80%.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And we also do have, we now

Speaker B: write business in other states.

Speaker A: We do, yeah. We write in seven other states now. But it's only because our clients have property there.

Speaker B: So it's a combination.

Speaker A: It is. That's it. We're not marketing in those states. We're not trying to write business. It's just taking care of our.

Speaker B: Would you. So you talked about high net worth. But uh, so I call that a niche or a niche. You have any other areas of expertise?

Speaker A: Construction. Construction. Builders, developers, flippers, you know, condo developers, homeowner association developers. Um, we do quite a bit of that. We were just talking about how we survived, um, you know, December, because December you're Getting all your 11 renewals for your contractors. And that's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of work. Um, so Decembers are very, very stressful here. So um, that's really the only niche that all these years that I've really just kind of lucked into from doing his, you know, one client's personal lines. And all of a sudden I just, I do a lot of construction.

Speaker B: How did construction happen? Was it because it's happening in your area and so you're almost, it is forced. But.

Speaker A: Well, and if you get in, if you, if you're doing developments, if you're doing condo and homeowner association developers and you get with an attorney that writes all of those contracts, because I, you know, they have to have. They have to have contracts between the developing entity and the contractor. When you get in with an attorney, local attorney, that knows that, you know what you're doing, reading bylaws and master deeds and how to put the insurance together and how to ensure the developing entity, they will refer you to their clients. And we've got two of them here in our town that specialize in construction contracts.

Speaker B: So your centers of influence aren't necessarily like personal lines agents who have mortgage lenders and realtors as their centers of influence. Yours or more from CPA attorney side, because it's on the business side of the.

Speaker A: Right. So I. I have a lot of realtors just because I served the local women's council realtors for years, but I have a lot of financial planners because, and we've talked about this before, I have that special license in Michigan where I get paid by the hour to review insurance. And I do that for. I have now nine financial planners that I do that for all the way from Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is four hours south of us. Um, but then I'm working on getting one a little further north of this as well. So that keeps me busy reviewing insurance policies.

Speaker B: Okay, Very cool. So you mentioned, uh, your son, his name is Logan.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: There's a lot of us in the industry. I have two kids. They're both in their late 30s, no interest in the insurance industry. I have a doctor and an engineer, and they're doing just fine. They're doing probably better than me, but. How did it go with Logan? Was that something. You nudged him or did he. Was he interested from, you know, a diaper or. How'd that all go?

Speaker A: Um, I actually. I keep trying to chase him away. I really didn't want him coming into the business until he went to work for somebody else. Right. I thought that was important. That's kind of what had been handed down to me from agency owners was, yeah, my kid will probably end up here, but I want him to work for somebody else first. And that made sense to me with Logan.

Speaker B: A lot of. From a lot of angles.

Speaker A: Yeah. For a lot of reasons. Um, Logan was pretty determined that he wanted to sit in my chair. You know, we play golf together all the time. And he's like, if I get this one in, you're going to give me 1% ownership? You know, he's really big. He's big on wanting ownership. Um, the thing is that Logan and I have completely different concepts of customer Service. And I tell people this all the time. There's not as big of a difference between my father's age generation and mine, but there's a huge difference between mine and Logan's because of technology and AI.

Speaker B: Uh, technology.

Speaker A: Huge. And so for me it's the sitting across from the table with the client or going out to a construction site or, you know, we're talking about writing this big farm place here. And the agent came to me and said he would like for you to come out with me. And so for us to be on site with people, that's not his generation, that's not his. His thing is technology. His thing is connecting via uh, the Internet and texting and all of that.

Speaker B: So uh, so he wants to sit there and go like this.

Speaker A: You got it?

Speaker B: Say, okay, I'll edoc you. Hang on.

Speaker A: QBI would be great for him. Quote, buying issue. That's him all day long, right? No interaction. But he's getting into it. He's getting into commercial. He enjoys commercial. But what's been really great about Logan is, and I said this in Chicago, you know, 90, 95% of the time he and I work extremely well together because he'll say, mom, why are you doing this this way? And I'll think about it and go, it's robotic. We've been doing it that way forever. But you're right, we need to think of a different way of doing this. And he'll add in some automation and stuff. And then the other percent of the time I keep telling to update his resume because he drives me nuts with ideas that I don't agree with. You know, he'll have an idea and say like this, you know, I bought a building during COVID I bought an office. And he wants to close the office and have 100% remote. I've done, you know, probably 70% remote, 30% in the office. So there are certain things that we're not going to agree on. Just because I'm, I have that old fashioned face to face relationship building, sales mentality. And for him it's technology. Quick, get it done. And so we'll see if that changes because he is getting really interested in commercial and is looking to take commercial classes, insurance classes. And I think it's because like I said earlier, it's more of a challenge for him. He doesn't want.

Speaker B: And there's a whole lot, um, in my opinion, there's a whole lot more to learn.

Speaker A: Yeah, there is.

Speaker B: On the commercial side.

Speaker A: There is definitely. Yeah.

Speaker B: There's just so many M so much different than two cars in a home. And um, which is personal lines is vast majority and uh, there's so many different nuances with from one business to the next.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So yeah, good for you to recognize that and to tell him, listen, you're going to need some education.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Probably practical.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: On the job education and some book learning.

Speaker A: Right Bo? Yeah, I've given him some of my. He wanted to take a class and I said I've got all these books right behind me. 36 years of classes. They're right. Seven designations, they're right behind me. So he's grabbed a few of them which I was shocked. So anyway, so it's a good. It really what's nice about that too is I've taken some of the operations and assigned them to him in January. So any technology issues in the agency, computer issues, any of that stuff, I don't handle them anymore. He handles it.

Speaker B: Well, that's good. He's probably the type of person to do that kind of thing, figure it out. It's his jam and he's good at it. Um, I'm um, I'm guessing he's very good at it. Yeah. Good for you. Cool. So you just brought up something that was uh, was one of the questions I had for you. Here's the letters you have to after your name. These are designations. Cp, CPR I A cprm, lic, aai, cic, lutcf. Some folks are going to recognize some of those. Probably the most prominent one is CIC. Uh, LUTCF. I took that. What back in the 80s. That was uh, one of the first things they put you through. Yeah. Which is Life Underwriter Training Council Fellow. Right. And uh, you get a designation. It's two years, once a month, once a week. I forget how long they were when I took them.

Speaker A: They were 26 weeks long, the classes. And then they um. About three years into it they went to 13 week classes but it was 26 weeks.

Speaker B: They changed. Yeah, they morphed over the years but um, uh, I took that and I don't even put that after my name in it because nobody knows what it means. But CIC is a really prominent one. So my question for you regarding all that. Obviously education is important to you because from what I could tell on your bio, uh, those first two I read those are recent, like in the last five years.

Speaker A: Those are the high net worth. So those are both high net worth.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So tell the folks why you believe that keeping yourself educated is important.

Speaker A: Well, I think we're always learning, especially in this hard market. I'll tell you, there's some things going on that are just beyond crazy with companies non renewing across entire books of businesses. Um, so I think anytime that you have to play in the ENS market, you better be educated about what you're doing. And I know for a fact agents that are coming to me wanting to place some things that they really just should not be playing in that arena because they're not reading the forms. And so I think you need to keep yourself educated. Pollute. You know, I do a lot of construction. What's a big thing for construction? Pollution, Liability. Digging up a site and finding whatever, you know, whether it's remains or whether it's a tank. Um, so, you know, things like that. It just, especially when you're an agency owner and you're running the business and you're doing everything from fixing the wallpaper to the computer and the printer and the, you know, selling and hr. I think a lot of times you forget to update yourself on what's changing in the industry. What are the new things that are being, you know, whether it's, whether it's cyber liability. Have you presented that to every client? Has every client signed off? Has every client signed off on eppli? We don't talk about Epley as much, but it's still there. So I think the more you go to those classes, not only do you learn things, but it reminds you that, oh, we needed to get a waiver for that. Oh, we need to talk about that with our agents and educate them and go, hey, when you are talking with the client and they mention that they bought all this land and they're going to do a development and dig up a bunch of land and you know where it's at and it's, you know, old Mission Peninsula. There's stuff buried out there. Maybe we don't want to know what's buried out there. So I think it makes you aware too. I think it just makes you more aware as well as educated.

Speaker B: Yeah. And for those who didn't catch it, your acronym, epley, that's epli. So employment practices M. Yep. What's on the horizon for Logan? Is he going to get designations? Is that his track?

Speaker A: He's working actually on alerting the lic. So when we get a request from a financial planner or an attorney that comes in with their clients, he will actually do the template, the first one, and write down the review of the insurance. And then I will go in and update it and tweak it and kind of educate. So he will be going to get his lic. So if something does happen to me, we have somebody in the office who's qualified to continue that with our financial planners because we've been doing it, um, I've been doing it since 2000, the year 2000. So, um, we would want someone to carry that forward. That's a big piece of what we do. So he is learning that beyond that, I don't know, we're going to kind of just play it by ear with him and we've had a very frank discussion that even ownership, he just needs to mature into it. So we'll see.

Speaker B: Okay, cool. That's fair. Also, in your bio you talk a lot about your volunteer work. You call yourself a volunteer junkie.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And from what you mentioned earlier, the, um, Women's Council of Realtor board that you volunteer on, and you're on the actual board, so that's an affiliate type thing, you know, that's not insurance. But it's, uh, related to an industry like what we do, uh, with real estate. So. Which makes total sense after you talk about how much you do in construction. That makes complete sense. So, um, talk to us about why is volunteering important to you?

Speaker A: You know, it's. I've been volunteering since I was 16. I, um. Yeah, it is. And taking care of kids is too. So, um, I started the Make a Wish chapter here in traverse city in 2016, I think it is. In fact, I've got five. I just got my fifth. I have five wish kids I'm working on right now with their families and granting wishes. Um, we started our own, we have Cardinals Kids now, which is our own nonprofit for us to do things in the local community. And our matching program that we do for referrals, instead of giving it to a local charity, we are giving it to that Cardinal's kids. So that way we can decide how to funnel that money, what kids are going to receive that. Um, kids have always been big for me to take care of. Um, I came from, um, a very broken home and a very tragic, um, home life as a child. And I think I just want to take care and help as many kids as I can.

Speaker B: Okay. So you don't do it because you think it's gonna earn you business. You do it because of the love of it.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: If business comes along, that's just a side benefit. And that nowhere near why you do that. But here's my message that I want to hear from you. I want to hear Your message, um, because you talked about Logan and his generation, my kids generation, you know, um, there's less likelihood or desire for them to want to build and get involved in community as, you know, as a general term, um, yours. In my generation, community and relationships, it's the foundation. There's nothing else below it. So my fear, and I want to hear your message, my fear is that our kids, our generation that we're bringing into this world are not seeing that, they're not buying into that. They want to pick this thing up.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Right. And do business that way. Nobody talks on the phone anymore. It's all texting and messaging and through apps and the whole bit. It's technology. Technology has done that to us. So what's your message to that generation and how do you see that generation taking community or taking the baton and building community as a whole?

Speaker A: You know, I think this is a very, very difficult topic and you should have said it to me ahead of time, Dave, um, because it's a tough

Speaker B: question and it's a tough answer.

Speaker A: I know that in our current economy has made it even more difficult. You know, we've pretty much done away with the middle class just with what's going on. And you've got these young people today that have really been priced out of the mirror dream. These kids are going to have to make 130, $150,000 a year just to buy a house right now. So I don't. I think it's kind of difficult for them to be invested in the community if they can't even buy a home and be part of that community. So this whole thing of kids that are, you know, that are working and doing side gigs and, you know, not really putting roots down is a concern for me as well. So I don't have the answer for that. All I can do, like I said with these charities that we have and the things that we do at the kids school, is just let them know that they're loved and that relationships do matter, that they can reach out to us. Um, at the end of the day, relationships trump anything that you can do on, um, technology. They just do. Being able to reach out on a phone call to a friend, being able to reach out when you haven't heard from somebody. How do you instill that and teach that in children other than by showing them? I don't have an answer for that.

Speaker B: No, none of us have that answer. No, we just, as parents, we do the best we can to have our kids have experiences and lead by example that's how they'll learn. It really concerns me, though, that, you know, kids don't want to socialize. Uh, the, especially our grandkids generation, they grow up with a phone in their hand at age 2 months and they don't know anything else but the iPad and all the digital devices. So where's that going to take us? Uh, it's a slippery slope. None of us have the answer. We're going to find out in 10 to 20 years.

Speaker A: Logan is, you know, he's been trying to work on his side gig, so to speak, other than investing, is building a portfolio of rentals, so dealing with real estate agents. The majority of the real estate agents are not in his age group. And they'll call you by 8 to morning if you want to call him. You're done. He's not working with you. You have to text him. And so I have made that very clear to realtors that I connected him with, since I have so many realtors that are friends and said if you don't text him back, if you want to try to pick up the phone and call him, he's not going to answer. So it does bother me. You know, he'll pick up the phone for people he knows, but only for his buddies, you know, or me.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And only because they know me or

Speaker B: it's important enough they'll send me a text.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Speaker B: So, yeah, that does, um. That concerns me too, for sure. So, uh, the other. Another question I want to ask you about is, um, technology. And you've got Logan. Most people don't have a Logan in their agency. They're doing it, trying to do it themselves as an owner. And, you know, there's so many shiny objects that come pop up ever, I mean, by the week. Yeah, yeah, probably, you know, so you've got somebody to take care of that. But when you didn't, or now when you do need to get involved, how do you go about sorting out the shiny objects? Like, could you ever see yourself moving to a new AMS system?

Speaker A: Not now. I just did it in 2018 and six years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the thing is I did not realize I've always had this affliction. That's what I'll call it analysis paralysis. But I didn't really have a name for it until a few years ago because I would just research and research and research something to death to make sure, you know, I'm a perfectionist, make sure it's the right thing. And then I would just stop, get just Short of pulling the trigger and stop doing it. Because then something new came on board. Oh, I got to research this one now. And all it did really was stop me from changing. Stop me from switching. So I had the same agency management system, Doris, from the time that I opened the doors. Because back then, Doris didn't require you to have a server. And I couldn't afford a server back then, just opening the doors. And so I went with Doris and kept them until the reports were horrible. Until I finally. And I. It took me almost three years of research. I'm not joking. Because then I picked a system. After about a year and a half, I picked a system and then I got some bad news on that system, so that I just started all over and I spreadsheeted everything I wanted in a system and what did they have to do? And you'd finally decide. And then they go, oh, uh, but this one does texting. Oh, wait, yeah, I want texting too. So it was a nightmare. And so finally, um, I finally narrowed it down to two different companies. And one of them had a problem with one of our carriers, Pioneer. And no matter how long I talked to the company or the ams, they kept blaming each other. And I finally said, we're just going to go with this other one, the technology we did adopt. And I'll give you an example. So we have Hawksoft is our agency management system. Love it. We have Agency Zoom. I know how to get in and do some things. But Logan pretty much runs Agency Zoom. But I. We seriously had that about three months. When Logan said, mom, you can only choose the first named insured. So if you're talking to Bob Smith, but Tina Smith's the first named insured, everything's gonna go to Tina. And I said, well, forget we're not paying that anymore. Just forget it. He goes, you don't dump the whole thing just because one thing's wrong. He's like, mom, wait, wait, wait. So we still have.

Speaker B: There's a workaround.

Speaker A: Exactly. We. He fought for them, so we still have them today. But I was of the thing that if it's not perfect, get rid of it and move on. Let's find something else. Unfortunately, he was like, no, Mom, M. It's going to do everything else that we need. We're not starting over with something else.

Speaker B: Okay. So it's good to have a mind like that in your agency, because there's balance system, dude, Good balance. Yeah, I like that. So I was going to ask you about what called your tech stack. So this would Be a question for Logan, but hawksoft is your AMS agency. Zoom is your CRM.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And you use what else besides those two pieces?

Speaker A: So Lightspeed Voice is our VoIP. Um, which does work in connection with Hoxoft. Um, we use Formstack in connection with Hoxa for eSign.

Speaker B: So texting is built in. Where.

Speaker A: And um, through Hawksoft. Through. With Lightspeed. Through Hawksoft. Yep, we do that.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, we do have zapier, but I don't understand it and I don't use it and I don't think really, Logan's really done much with it. Um, but that's over an agency. Zoom for. I don't know, we're zapping stuff. I don't know what we're zapping.

Speaker B: Yeah, zaps, they're called zaps. Yeah.

Speaker A: I don't know.

Speaker B: Zaps are just little bits of code that are written so that software A talks to software B.

Speaker A: It's connecting.

Speaker B: Yeah, basically connecting software to software.

Speaker A: That's what I transferred to Logan.

Speaker B: Me too. Yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's a perfectly good thing. Our generation is great on the relationship side of things. And uh, you know, the millennials and gin, whatever it is now Gen aa, right, Z, I think, um, they're, uh, they're the tech folks or tech savvy. They're good at it. I would hire a VA to do my tech sav stuff before I would try to attempt it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, by far every day of the week. So, yeah. One of the other things I saw on your bio was you're a travel addict. So I know, um, auto owners have sent you on numerous trips because you've been a top producer for them. So you've been able to go in the States, abroad. But beyond carrier trips, tell us about your travel life and what's on your bucket list.

Speaker A: So for this year, I decided that I didn't want to do an auto owners trip for me. One of our. One of the agents is going. One of our agents is going on that. Um, I make it available for them every year if they meet certain, you know, qualifications. But even though we earned two trips this year, I just didn't want to do a trip. I wanted to. It's great to travel with them, don't get me wrong. They pull out the cart red carpet

Speaker B: like you would, first class.

Speaker A: But you're still with a group of insurance agents. And I just wanted one year where I planned my own. Um, so this year I'm actually doing a spring break going down to Orange Beach, Alabama, just to golf with a friend of mine. Um, so we planned that we're going to see Garth, uh, Brooks in July in Vegas, which I'm excited to see him in concert.

Speaker B: Cool.

Speaker A: Um, so, yeah, and now that I've kind of got more staff and I promoted one of my, um, agents to executive team leader, so she's managing the other agents. Um, Logan's doing a lot of the operations. I can breathe a little bit more and be able to travel. Not so much for business, but for fun because I've done a lot of business travel over the last 10 years. A lot. Right. So it'll be nice just to have some fun, travel in there.

Speaker B: You're coming into your own. That's a nice feeling.

Speaker A: It is. It's like, it's been a long, long road and it's. I can finally breathe a little bit this year. It's really nice.

Speaker B: But you wouldn't trade it for any other career track, professional track, would you?

Speaker A: No. And no desire to get off anytime soon. Soon. I don't care what aggregator calls. I have no desire to get out of this business anytime soon.

Speaker B: Good for you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, so what's on your bucket list? Honestly?

Speaker A: Um, to buy an oceanside home. Not sure where. Yes. But I would like.

Speaker B: Don't know which ocean.

Speaker A: No, no. Probably the time zone is the issue. Right. So I still want to be available for the agents. And if I'm over on the west coast, that makes it a little more difficult with a three hour time difference. Um, so that's why I've been kind of researching. I spent a month last year and I spent the entire month of February at, uh, Airbnb in Myrtle Beach. North Myrtle beach on the ocean. Um, we're going down. I'm going to spend, um, a week and a half in Orange beach on the ocean, in the condo. So I just. Ideally I would like from January to April to be out of Northern Michigan when it's not that best weather and work, uh, remotely from somewhere else. So that's my, my goal is to, is to buy a home somewhere else.

Speaker B: Very cool. Does the weather get to you as you age?

Speaker A: It's not even as I age. It's just that I'm over it. Um, because I've done all the snowmobiling I want to do. You know what? I just, I've done it and so I would rather just be somewhere warm and, you know, taking a swimming, not the polar.

Speaker B: That's what happens with, that's what happens with the American, with Americas People uh, migrate south. Oh I know north to south directly.

Speaker A: We have a lot, not too many

Speaker B: go from the east coast to the west coast. They go directly south. Yeah. So if you're on the east coast, you're going to go to Florida, you're going to go to the Carolinas, you're going to go to the Gulf States. You know, uh, if you're over in the Northwest, you're going to head to Arizona or California.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So. But in your case you're. I, I understand you want to stay close. Time difference can be a factor.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So. But beyond, um, secondary, uh, home. What's your uh, what you're on your travel bucket list.

Speaker A: So I did Rome last year. Rome was nice. Um, Florence. A week of it was the auto owners trip. Another week of it we extended to see a lot of places. Places. Um, so that was really nice. Paris. Um, I've always, of course, Paris. Australia.

Speaker B: Ever been?

Speaker A: No, no.

Speaker B: If you do go to Australia, add in New Zealand.

Speaker A: I've heard that. I have a friend that's there right now actually posting pictures. I saw.

Speaker B: I thought New Zealand was cooler than Australia.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Actually so much culture.

Speaker A: We have an IAWA member that's there right now too, I believe.

Speaker B: Oh, okay. Yeah, very cool.

Speaker A: I have a girlfriend that's just came back actually Saturday. So um, so yeah, there's a lot of places that I would like to go and travel.

Speaker B: Um, places that you haven't been to before.

Speaker A: Right, right. I've been to quite a few places in Europe but um, it's just such a more laid back place to go, you know.

Speaker B: Totally.

Speaker A: Yeah. And even Hawaii. I've had a timeshare in Hawaii for 20 some years and the islands are just so much more relaxing than some of the vacations that you've seen. Take that. There's just tourists everywhere. If you can go to Kauai, there's some places in Kauai that are still.

Speaker B: Kauai is my favorite island.

Speaker A: Yeah. Not mine too.

Speaker B: Out of all the islands.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's so much slower pace. Maui's all touristy.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Um, Oahu. But Kauai is just like go hide out in the woods or the forest. The rainforest.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: It's pretty cool. So very cool. Um, last uh, kind of questions I want to talk about because we talk, we, we mentioned it last 2023 was a start of in our industry, what we call a hard market. So what have you had to do to adjust to make the hard market not so hard?

Speaker A: So we kind of had a Plan to attack it up front and be honest and forthright with our clients about what's happening. So we are approaching our renewals about 45 days ahead of time to look and see what's jumping, you know, a

Speaker B: significant amount, uh, 100% of your renewals.

Speaker A: No. So we have, we, um, tier our clients. We have our client tiering 100% are getting the email that says, hey, here's what's happening in the industry. Here's a blog that you can read about what's going on and why it's happening.

Speaker B: Um, and then we're not just making this up, it's really happening.

Speaker A: And here's why it's happening. Here's what you know. Right. Um, and so we have a spreadsheet that I built for the VAs where every, every single client is in there, every single renewal, and they're the ones that are going in and dumping in the renewal premium and saying what percentage it is. Do they. What's their deductible? What ticket claims do we show on there? What, you know, what deductible on the home. They're keying certain things that the agents can scroll really quickly through their Alphabet, split and go, okay, this one I want to only has a 500. They should have 1000 or 2500 deductible. So we're approaching it that way. To go in and kind of approach it and say, hey, we know it's happening. Here are some options for you. If you increase your deductible to this, here's the savings. If you increase your deductible to this, here's the savings. Um, we're also being very upfront with our clients with, and I've always done this, though, with, here's what changed on your policy. When it's all of a sudden, your deductibles for collision are going to be a flat thousand dollars. Because the company decided that, and we had one company that did decide that. So starting in March, those bullet, those emails will go out saying, hey, we just want you to know this is a change. Change in your policy. The carriers are responsible to do that. But I can tell you that unless they're putting it on the brightest fluorescent paper there is, our clients are not seeing it. So we're hopeful that when we have an email that's tagged correctly with important insurance change, you know, or something like that, that they're going to open a read that and know versus having a claimant and then being upset with us because we didn't let them know so we're just doing a really proactive and then we're also. I've let the agents know that there's so many clients shopping right now because of non renewals of entire industries of apartments and homeowners, condo associations, you know, buildings that are over 20 apartment buildings over 25 years old. You have to go to the E and S market for some of this stuff. And uh, you know, I've told them up front, if we don't have coverage for these people already, you're not going to go play in the ENS market. When you don't know the forms, you just aren't.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You know, I've read some of these forms and I know where some of the gaps are and some of the issues are. So if it's something that we as an agency decide as a client that we want to, you know, work with and go after, then I'm fine to do that. But it's, I just think it's, I think it's a huge EO for agencies to be reacting to the flood that's coming in by trying to place every single person that comes to them. You can't place every single person you shouldn't.

Speaker B: That's a good point. I don't think everybody knows that or thinks that. Same way a lot of folks think I got to save every client. I, I can. Yeah, because I, it's my job. But, uh, it's not always the best interest of that client.

Speaker A: Now when I said this years ago, years and years ago, I said, you know, you have to give your CSRs permission to let, uh, a sale go and to fire a client. You do. Because CSRs that are truly good are truly good because they have a great heart and they're going to want to, they don't want to upset you and lose a client, and they don't want to upset the client and not do what they're asked to do. But when you're placing policies with carriers that you don't know anything about, or maybe their rating has dropped, which we've had a couple carriers in Michigan whose ratings have dropped. Um, and then we've got issues with our, you know, insurance because of that, you know, so you just have to, you have to look at it and say, there are some times when I look at a client and say, you know what, it's in your best interest to go here. They've got a lot more markets than we do and don't waste their time or yours collecting data. Send them off right away.

Speaker B: Right. So I Thought of a follow up question because earlier you talked about your demographics of your agency and you knew your numbers. You said 2.2 policies per household.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So most agency owners do track. That's a metric that they track.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So my question for you regarding that is, do you feel like, did you take a look at that and say, you know, this hard market now we've been through almost a year, year of it, uh, can 2.2 improve because of what's happening with this hard market?

Speaker A: That's one of our goals is to improve that. And yet if I break off my book of business and look at how many are accounts that we write the property here for and maybe a car that they keep here, but I can't write their primary because it's in California. I'm not like, you know, I only have one company in other states. And so there's a, you know, there's one in Big Sky Montana that I sent to an IAO agent that's a huge account. And, um, she emailed me this morning and said thank you for putting me in touch with him. He's great to work with. Um, and I, it, you know, it really crushes me that I haven't been able to write her property out there in 20 years I've known her. So, um, you know, I think, yeah, yeah, that's my two cents, actually.

Speaker B: So do you have a number in mind? What can 2.2 improve?

Speaker A: Yeah, and I put it to 2.3. But if you look at how many single dwelling fires that we write that are rental dwellings that people are buying in our state, left and right, what

Speaker B: you can do with that, there's.

Speaker A: Yeah, and if I segment, in fact, I, you know, in Hoxoff you can see, um, auto without home and home without auto and how many with umbrellas. And I can tell you that our umbrella count is more than 50% of our clients have umbrellas that are in Michigan. Because I can category it by Michigan. So that's a big number that we have umbrellas with that many clients. But for sure, yeah. But again, the people that are residents in California or, you know, Wyoming or Arizona, we can't do anything with those. We can't. Right, right. Cool.

Speaker B: Well, Linda, I want to thank you for coming on today. I know our listeners are going to enjoy hearing what you have to say. You're always a pleasure. We appreciate you. You've been an IOA supporter for almost the full 10 years we've been in existence. You told me offline we were, uh, like number 262.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I don't know that there's too many IOA members that know the number that they are, but that's pretty cool. We're closing in on a 10,000 mark. 10,000. 10 years. That was never our goal to have a number. We just wanted to help as many people as we could, and that's still our goal today.

Speaker A: And that's the thing, Dave, is, you know, stuff happens in groups like that and. But at the end of the day, I tell people all the time, I never, ever would have the encouragement. Incredible group of agents that I can go to in different states for help with accounts for clients or just core group of friends and be in the master, you know, the masterminds that I'm in because of it.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I wouldn't have met these people if it was not for you. Thinking of that, you know, starting that group and then adding the other guys, and it wouldn't have happened.

Speaker B: So, yeah, it was a cool accident to happen.

Speaker A: It wasn't by design, but it's benefited people so much. So thank you for that.

Speaker B: Uh, and it's not on me. I don't take the credit. It's all those 10,000 members who bought into the vision and said, you know, I'm willing to share if you'll share with me.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And when you do that, we all become better together. We've said that for years.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: Thanks again, Linda. We appreciate you.

Speaker A: We can fight the lizard together.

Speaker B: That's it. I appreciate you. Thanks for coming on. Our listeners are going to love hearing you and, uh, it'll be, uh, uh, posted here soon and we will see you. Hopefully someday I'll get up to Traverse. If I do, I'm going to buy a cup of coffee.

Speaker A: Let me know.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Okay. We'll call it Coffee Wink wink.

Speaker B: Yeah. All right, thanks everybody for listening. This is Captain Dave signing, uh, out from sunny Hendersonville, Tennessee. Have a great week, everybody. Take care.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to Collabcast with IAOA with Captain Dave Jackson, production and distribution by Pawnsquad fm, Riverside FM and Spotify. For podcasters, special thanks to Little Dog Social Media, Terry Champion and all our guests and listeners. If you're an independent insurance agency owner, please subscribe to our podcast weekly. You can also request to join our agency owner Exclusive Facebook group, I.A.O.A. or Insurance Agency Owners alliance at I.A.O.A.com Captain Dave Jackson signs out from sunny Hendersonville, Tennessee.