How Employee Engagement Drives Brand Mojo

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Uh,

Speaker C: Welcome to another episode of Brand Narrative, the podcast where we explore the world of marketing creativity and the genealogy of good ideas. Brand Narrative is hosted by Matt Certo and the agency he calls home. Find some and win.

Speaker A: All right, well, welcome, everybody, to another edition of the Brand Narrative podcast. Another episode. I'm excited about this one. Um, I'm gonna bring on a guest who's a colleague, friend, buddy, uh, somebody I respect and somebody I learn from all the time when we're hanging out. Um, this is Jim Knight, and Jim Knight is a true rock star. We'll get into that a little bit, but, um, Jim is. Is an author, keynote speaker, consultant. Um, he. He helps a lot of companies with their teams, building excitement, building energy, building culture, building engagement, which we're going to talk about. And I was prompted to think about Jim, who hadn't seen it a bit, when I got a copy of his most recent book, Engagement that Rocks, um, which is part of his Culture that Rocks trilogy. Written a number of books, and I was excited to see that. And also he mentioned our company in that book, which was, uh, a, um, really nice gesture and something we were really proud of as a team. Jim has a rock star background. He's a musician. He's got on brand hair and really got involved in teaching the world's leading companies on how to build culture by starting at Gatorland and then getting into Hard Rock International, where he led global training. And it's just superstar in this world. So I. I'll let him share more and won't embarrass him too much. But, Jim, welcome. It's good to see you, man.

Speaker B: It is so good to see you too. And I. I'll start with, uh. I'm not even sure if I told you I was putting your company in the book. I think it was, uh, maybe a little bit of a surprise. And, uh, I shared with you before we even jumped on. I probably could have picked your. Your brand to be in almost couple, uh, of those chapters. But, um, yeah, I found a nice little place for it to live in there. And, uh, anything I can do to shine a spotlight on companies that are doing a great job, I tend not to go negative. I've got some people, that's their job. They want to throw companies under the bus. I'm all about trying to see if I can't throw a little love, uh, to them. So thank you, man, for having me on the show. I think I was on a brand narrative episode in the past, but it's been a While. Since we've seen each other.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, it has been a minute. And, um, you were on a, uh, an episode, you and Brandt, uh, your partner. Ah, business partner, colleague. On how a build. Writing a book can help build a brand. So that was what you all.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: You espouse so much wisdom, you forget about all these breadcrumbs you leave, don't you?

Speaker B: I, uh, would put it a different way. I think I. Maybe it's the onset of something where I'm just forgetful in nature. Who knows? But, uh, yes, let's, let's. Let's chalk it up to I'm just so busy and I do so much of this, I forget.

Speaker A: That's it. But it's kind of you to spend some time with us. So. But seriously. So I wanted to talk about this book because does, uh. As you know, in my world, people come to me and they want to fix business problems, and they want to fix it through a logo or they want to fix it through a video, or they want to fix it through a website. And all those things are important. But over my years in this business, it turns out that I think a lot of what happens with companies and why they thrive and why they succeed has nothing to do with any of the beautiful, pretty brand elements that we create for them. It has more to do with the people. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah, 100%. And I've shared this with, uh, marketing departments, marketers in general. I go, uh, you know, how frustrating it must be for a company or company to outsource, to go and fix these things. Like you said, a video, uh, you know, it might be, um, um, you know, some signage. It could be a website. It could be all the things you just talked about. Let's say you spend millions of dollars on that and you beat on your chest is about how awesome the company is, only to then put the end user, the guest, the customer, the associate, into an environment where it doesn't match up to what was on the video or the commercial or the billboard. So I just said, you know, my background was really in learning and development. Um, but I used the same mentality. Like, I look, the marketing people were the ones that I really followed. I was in their shadow going, whatever color palette and font and language and imagery and whatever you're going to use, I'm going to do that internally, which a lot of training and development companies or departments don't do. So that's really kind of where I got my start. But, uh, I'm 100% behind you I think if you do all the things that you just rattled off and I just added to it, it's very expensive window dressing. Right. It doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot if the end user doesn't get the awesome, unbelievably mind steering experiences that we promised them. You know?

Speaker A: That's right. And I. I want to dive into that with you today. And I do want to. I want to say, as a caveat, uh, we still do want them spending the millions of dollars, of course.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, for sure.

Speaker A: Yes. We know an agency where I don't want to at all discourage anyone, so. Right. No, but it is, it is funny to me, that, uh, and ironic. So I'm going to frame today in two little stories, two vignettes that, that I experienced a couple weeks ago.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And as I was contemplating this, I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna frame story A and story B for Jim, and maybe you can help us deconstruct. So the first story happened. These both happened to me in the same day. The first story happened in the morning. I wanted some coffee and I went into Starbucks. And I went into the Starbucks near my office. And I don't go into that Starbucks that often because of my commute. I walk in and the lady behind the counter was like, how's your day going, man? How you doing, bud? Like, it was like, how is everything going? As I walked up, big smile on her face, and I'm m. Like, hey, it's going well. How's yours? Hey, it's going well. Me too. Um, I ordered black coffee. She's like, uh, oh, you want to go easy on me? I guess. And not a problem. And that's not the most exciting order I've had today. She was just giving me a hard time, but having fun. Writes my name on the, uh, cup, smiley face. And I go on about my day. And now keep in mind, she's doing this for every customer. Wasn't anything special about Matt Certo that particular day, but I left there feeling like, man, that was intentional. Yeah, that was a vibe that I just got from that place.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we'll get into that a little bit more because I know Starbucks, huge enterprise. They're doing a lot to try and build that.

Speaker B: They are. Yeah.

Speaker A: So that's story one. Story two happened that same day. My wife comes by, hey, do you want to go grab lunch? Let's go to the salad place right here. We're on the earlier side for lunch. Like 11:35, 11:40 and so we're like the first customers in this salad place, which I'm not going to name, but it's one of these. Go down the line and make your own salad.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And we're there kind of waiting. They look behind, there's two or three people and they kind of know we're there and we know that they know that we know that they're there. Right. And they're kind of like, uh, you know, we got to go to work. And they kind of saunter up, would you like today? And you kind of felt like they don't want us here.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, so I say all that to say, um, everybody's entitled to a bad day. So we're not trying to rip anybody. But it was a very clear distinction between what I experienced in the morning and what I experienced at lunch. So fix it.

Speaker B: Well, you certainly aren't going to fix it with, ah, a bunch of external stuff. I mean the things I'm going to talk about are always human behaviors and it's almost learned human behaviors. I mean people are going to come to any job. By the time they're, I don't know, probably the salad place you're talking about, they were fairly young, 18, 19, 20 year olds. They are the way they are because they learn that somewhere. They learn it from their parents, from their school, from playground, their friends, religion, lack of religion, whatever it is. But by the time they come to me and somebody has put them into a service oriented position, they've either got the juice running through their veins and they want to be around other humans or they don't. And uh, the ones that don't, I guess you could probably fake it for a little bit. You could train them, you could develop them, you could ride herd on them, you could manage them, you could do whatever you want. But when you're not around as the boss, they're going to behave and act the way they normally would. And you've got a great, you know, case study that you're looking at two people that almost seem like, uh, you know, I'd love to be able to do my job if it wasn't for these people that just walked in like it's that mentality. And um, you know, there are probably some people that do not care because it's cheap and it's easy and it's fast and whatever. But there are a lot of people that do care. And at some point you're going to write them off your list, they're going to be on your no list. And you'll hurt them. The one place that you can really hurt them, which is in their register and their, their P. L. So, um, you know, it's sad because you go back to the Starbucks example and you're right. I mean, they certainly, uh, are trying to do things, uh, the way they used to, and we can talk about that. But right now, the ones that are getting it, that are rocking your face off when you walk in is because they've already got some individuals who are already, in my opinion, predisposed to be and act like that. And somebody has released the chains. They've, they've allowed them to go amongst the humans and be themselves and be cool and have a little fun and take off on you. Like it wasn't like perfect positive fun. There's a little bit of digging on you with it as well. And I think that's humans. Like, this is how we would normally talk. So, you know, all the other stuff, you can put whatever campaigns, M and programs that you want to put into place. But hiring, loving on training, developing, communicating, rewarding, recognizing all of these people, getting them to stay with you longer. If I can hit every area of that employee life cycle, but starting with I got to go and find the right people, you're going to win regardless of what the business is. And I know you're given two F and B examples, but you can go down the list of anything, anybody that has to deal with another person, whether it's on the phone, online, or in person. Um, even in this latest book, I think I have like 100 different examples. I purposefully tried to stay away from food and beverage because that's. You can probably see the dichotomy more than anything else. But theme parks, casinos, hotels, retail stores, anywhere where you need to buy a product or a service, this can be very apparent. And these days there's probably a lot more that are in the middle. They're probably mediocre versus really awesome or really bad. But for people our age, it's starting to stand out like a, uh, you know, it like, like it's uh, that thing in aliens on your face. You know, you can't get away from it and you're just gonna at some point go, I'm done with this place. I've drawn the line in the sand and you'll never see me again. And it'll catch up with them at some point.

Speaker A: So zooming out a little bit. We can come back to salads and Starbucks, but zooming out. Your role often, as I understand it, is to help companies see this and help from underneath, um, the education and awareness training, culture building that. That helps to be closer to the Starbucks vibe than the salad vibe. So your latest book, which came out is, um, called Engagement that Rocks.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it is chock full of examples. Can you help us understand what employee engagement is? Because that's a big buzzword that's been around. Um, but I, I feel like it's here to stay. Can you share a little bit how you look at what employee engagement is and how we build that?

Speaker B: Yeah, and I would almost say it's like the word culture. It's such a nebulous, esoteric word that you can almost plug in your own definition. If I ask somebody, what is engagement, what is culture? They're probably going to come to me with the mushmouth. They'll do the best they can. If I had a group of people, I could write down all of the things they say on a flip chart and I'd probably agree with all of them. But I think the crux of engagement is how can I get a team member to love their company so much they can't fathom going somewhere else? Now, that's a very broad statement. Um, but the reason that I wrote the book is what I didn't want to do is go detail with just pay and benefits and go, oh, there's things that I can throw at some associate or team member and that's going to get them to stay. We know full well that a lot of people will leave you sometimes for a little bit less money. That says a lot about somebody's leadership or the environment. It could have been toxic. It could have been a variety of things. So I said, you know, engagement, again, is just so broad. Could I. Could I write something and break it down as much as I could by chapter, that if you were to do these things, you're more likely to get people to hang out with you a little bit longer. Which in my world is like the Holy Grail. You know, finding the right talent is first and foremost, of course. But then if you're just churning through people, uh, now if you're, you made a mistake, you have to take somebody out for whatever reason. Um, I get that. But if they're leaving because they want to, not because they have to, I'm not taking them out. They're leaving on their own. That's my fault. Shame on me. So companies forever and ever have been looking at themselves going, what is it that we can do? And a lot of times they go, oh, let's put in the ping pong table, let's have a company blog, let's let them wear blue jeans, let's give them a little bit 50 cent raise, let's change the benefits. You know, it's, it's that stuff and you should do those things anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that stuff now I think for today's workforce is practically price of admission and some of those things, you know, it's remote work. You can't even use those examples anyway. Um, I think it's how do you love on people now? How do you as a boss go out of your way to have a relationship, an emotional attachment to the brand so much that they, they just don't want to go anywhere. There, there's a, there's a loyalty factor there. And, and if you were to treat me like um, you know, a peer, a colleague, a whole person, I feel seen, I feel heard. I'm not going regardless if somebody were to offer me a little bit more money or better environment. So I know that's sort of a broad take. I think when you're talking about engagement, it's how do I get people to stay with me longer? And part of that is I've got to engage every area, every sense, every platform, uh, every learning capability that I possibly can. Because if I can get them to stay longer, there's tons of statistics that will prove that the ones, the companies that have less turnover have higher returns when it comes to revenue or sales. So I used to do that.

Speaker A: Hard Rock.

Speaker B: I go all the time, once a year I'd look and see who are the top 10 hard rock cafes when I was there as head of training and development that are actually crushing it from year on year results, not one time a year budget. I'm talking about the trajectory constantly going up. How are they doing that year on year on year they happen to be. And uh, maybe not all 10, I don't want to lie to you, your audience, but I bet you 8 or 9 out of the 10 also had the greatest rolling 12 turnover. They held on to people a whole lot longer. So you don't feel like you're hamster in the wheel. It's not just churn and people are coming and going. You never get to the sweet stuff, you never get to nirvana because you're losing people all the time. So again, I know I just sort of expanded what your thought was on that. But it's getting people to just hang out with you a little bit longer and that's, that's some mindful intentional stuff that you're gonna have to do there.

Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you, it reminds me, uh, is it Warren Buffett or Warren Buffett's partner, Charlie Munger, who said the compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe?

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: And he's not just talking about money. He's talking about what you're talking about, which is year over year, what is accumulating and building and growing almost in an exponential way, as opposed to, am I starting over? Which they also say the worst thing you want to do when it comes to compound interest is last thing you want to do is interrupt it. So now you did talk a lot about, uh, the employee and their focus. And you in your book outline, the employee first philosophy, is that essentially what you're talking about there, how to put them first, make them feel like they're the star of the show? Maybe dig into that a little bit further for me.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's a reason why I threw that as the very first chapter. I think the mindset has to be employee first. I think if you have that philosophy of, um, I'm going to do everything for them. And here's sort of the example. This is nothing new that, I mean, you've heard all the time about this, this servant mindset, you know, approach where I can't, as a leader focus on everything. Do I care about increased profits and that trajectory constantly going up? Yes, that, that's the ultimate end result. And so what a lot of people will think is, then I need to do everything I can to bend over backwards for the customer, the guest, the end user. My entire world has been in a parallel universe below that line. Like, I do care about that, but I don't. Uh, every time I get promoted, as I become a leader, I'm further removed from the guests. My one thing that I can control is the day to day behaviors of the staff, of the employees, of the associates. So if I can focus on getting team members to just have an unbelievably great experience that is in my control, there's a lot that I can do here. You got to hope like heck, whoop it parlays up to the top, they will, in fact take care of the customer. So, you know, I tell people all the time, you got to figure out, out of that whole entire landscape, where do you want to spend the majority of your time? Are you coming up with a new service program for the guests and you're going to be doing, you know, in my restaurant world, it was table visits and it was doing whatever we can to be with the customers. And I go, I get the intent. But in my environment, working in a hard rock where there are perhaps a thousand people in a unit at any given time, I mean, I work in the busiest restaurant in the world. I can't get to everybody. But you know what I can do? I can go and make my tour focusing on the staff, supporting them. Hopefully. I've hired rock stars to go out there and slake it and do the things that I need them to do that they might not have done on their own. Which is a great definition of leadership. Right. Getting people to do the things that you need them to do, they might not have done on their own. For me, it just happens to be a preordained result as to what I need them to do. I need to go rock their face off, but I'm not going to be able to do it. So you get into mentorship and training and those types of things to make sure you've got the right people, you've coddled them the right way. But if I can focus all of my energy here, it's. It's the fulcrum, right? It's the prism through which you will be able to make awesome things happen on the back end for the business. But I'm doing it through the employees, I'm not doing it through the customer. I care a lot about it. It's just I'm not the person doing the day to day now with that.

Speaker A: One of the other chapters that you have a little bit further in is make it about them. You're kind of leading us in that direction. Can you, can you explain, uh, what that concept is and how we can use it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's. That sort of was, uh, a part two to the employee first. So I sort of set up the whole book with this employee first mentality. But then when you start talking about making it about them, it's. And I hate to say this, I'm sure it's a little controversial, but it is an employee's world right now. It probably has been for a while. But we as businesses, there are some that used to just draw a line in the sand and it was hard as all get out to actually get the job. And you will do this or else. Like I'm going back to the 80s where, you know, the leader maybe was trying to muscle the result. Maybe they. There's a couple that are still in different industries who manage through threats and punishment and fear, and they feel like that's the way they're going to get things done. Well, today's workforce will just laugh at you. They'll laugh at you and they'll leave and they'll go work for your direct competitor across the street. You know, it would be actually worse for you. And I think when you focus on them, because there's this weird, I think, confluence of events right now. We happen to be in a country where the unemployment rate is a little bit low, but I would probably say this if it was high, but right now, low unemployment, but yet it's hard to find people like, where are these awesome rock stars that you and I talk about? So it's super tough for companies. I can't just go out there and go find really great people and then walk out of the room. I get it's probably the hardest thing they could ever do, but I think business leaders have got to start mining for great people. The days of just sitting back waiting for people to fill out an application or a resume or a cv, those days are long gone. I think you have to be intentional when you're out, when you go to eat, drink, shop, stay, play, whatever it is, you've got to look for the people that would be the perfect stereotypical employee for you and figure out how can you get those people to come and work for you.

Speaker C: And.

Speaker B: And that's just the way that it is. You just can't sit back like a lemming anymore. So when I talk about making it about them, and there's several examples that I use in there, and part of what I did in this book, way more than the other two books in that trilogy, instead of me coming up with just a whole bunch of ideas I just pulled from different companies that I thought, wow, that's unique. That's different. That's interesting. How can I use those stories and those examples to really put a spotlight on some of these companies and say, man, they're doing a fantastic job and their results, particularly from a turnover standpoint or a loyalty standpoint, are just so much higher than others in their competitive set. So again, it was really sort of a part two. I think we just went a little bit deeper and I was given the examples. Um, but it's still sort of that employee first mentality. When you have that mindset, um, it means a lot. And I'll use one example here, First Watch, which I use in the book. You know, they're based here in Florida and Sarasota. Um, they're the breakfast, brunch and lunch concept. So a lot of people by now probably know who they are.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, their, their mission statement is you first. That's it. It's just two words. And I love it because you know, you would think it's about the customers, but it's not. I mean it could be, could be about the community, could be the customers. But I think it was really intended for the staff and I was there when it was actually being crafted at that moment. And I thought I could never think of a better mission statement for what their entire job is. We're going to focus on you first and you're going to take care of everything else for us. Um, I love mentalities like that. And that's, that's obviously a very employee first. Make it about them. Now. When you stick that up on the wall and you don't follow through, right? Liar, liar, pants on fire, now you get into trouble. So. But because it's there on the wall, it forces you, I think, to think about all the things that I could do to really make it you first. And then again, I think people stick with them a little bit longer or at least when they finally leave, they're talking about the brand fondly. They had a great time when they were there.

Speaker A: Yeah. It reminds me of the Southwest model. You know, they were early on in that model of, you know, the customer is not always right. I mean I think was one of their mantras, that the employee is always right, uh, or we're going to put our uh, employee ahead of the customer. And that was revolutionary at that time, back in the 60s or 70s when they started.

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so but you feel that uh, with Southwest you feel that vibe and cultures all go have, they have cycles, they go up and down. And uh, that's not always the case but uh, you get that sense. And then ultimately back to the salad example, to me, I felt like if these employees felt empowered, engaged, excited, proud.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: They're not just a cog in a wheel. They are part of the apparatus in a meaningful way and they're made to feel important, then ultimately you have probably a better experience or you have better output. Because to your point, the CEO, the VPs, they can't be there for every customer interaction. So setting them up for success, um, is, is, is critical. So. And we did talk about Starbucks a little bit. Um, and there's been some background and this is no accident that I was feeling that way. I'm no, I'm no star. I like Starbucks, but I'm not, um, not part of the team. They're not a client or anything like that. But I have been impressed at the change they've made. Can you talk a little bit about, uh, the shift that's, that's gone on there?

Speaker B: Yeah, you know, I think, um, when I was in a corporate environment 15, 20 years ago, Starbucks was my place for a variety of reasons. Um, where I was, there was one store that I just liked the people that were there. It's actually the first time I'd gone into a Starbucks because I didn't know anything about that. Um, I'm. We're in Florida, they're from Seattle. Took a while for them to get here, but once they were here, I was like, what's this all about? And uh, you know, I think for me, because it was consistent, it was different. I like the way the person looked behind the counter. I like that they were doing, you know, uh, they were at that time, they were selling music through there. They, they, uh, you know, philanthropic. You know, they use, uh, post consumable products. So they do a lot of recycling. You can recycle coffee grinds when you're there. They have their own language. I don't even know what I ordered the first time I ordered. So proud that I got it right the second time. Like, you know, all of that stuff and everybody's got their stories and then they're writing your name on the cup. I never been exposed to something like that. But before we take that for granted now. And of course they had stopped doing it. Um, I like you and probably a little bit more of a local coffee guy. There's tons of places that I could go and spend maybe a little bit less money. Maybe it's about the same. Um, and I want to support locals, but the reality is I'm an international traveler. When I see the green goddess, when I see the logo and I see the round star logo, like what? I'm so happy. And I go in there and for the most part it's been consist. You know, I would say there's about six, seven years where they really dropped the ball. And um, they know that they've been struggling and they've been trying to focus on almost making their entire mindset about the to go. Uh, order, um, you know, order in advance with mobile ordering. So my experience for the most part was going into a Starbucks, you know, let's call it a cafe in there. And I didn't get the same experience that I used to get because they were so much focused on the speed they had shut. You know, all of them down about eight, nine years ago to focus on the product like I remember them. But these were surface level things that they were doing. And I think their new CEO, um, has come in and really revolutionized. He's doing something different ironically. He's got a whole back to Starbucks. It's almost a back to basics approach. Like let's, let's flip, let's do what we used to do to get people to really fall in love with us again. Because there is a ton of competition out there and I can go get a great quality cup of coffee for half the price if I wanted to. But you know, they had my loyalty for so long so I want to give them an opportunity and now there's so many articles that are really being featured and it's not the cup of coffee, it's not just the fact that they're painting warmer colors, it's not just the furniture, it's not just that they're a little bit quicker. Although that does help going through the drive thru and mobile ordering. It's how you made me feel. This example that you had with somebody walking in, they again, I believe that this new CEO has sort of empowered their employees to make some friends here. If this really is the third place, if it really is, it's not work, it's not home. But I want to go here and escape and get away or get work done or whatever. It's going to be predicated on how you made me feel, not all the other stuff. Do some people just care about the other? Yeah, but for the most part again for people like myself, if I'm going to go spend. So I don't even call them Starbucks anymore, I call them six bucks because I'm going to spend six dollars every time I go in there. If I'm going to spend a six dollar cup of coffee, there better be some loyalty. You better be doing something to love on me just a little bit longer. So I have been very, very impressed as to what they're doing now. It's only been a year end, um, and I've got four Starbucks that are near me. I can't tell you that I've seen it at every single one of them but I can tell you it's starting to happen. I can see the green wave starting to happen now from, from the experiences. So I'm very mindful of um, the work that they're doing and they're, they're such a phenomenal brand. Case study because like you said, they're going to go through and let's see, can they keep this momentum sort of going up. But if they get the right people and they are treating people the right way, they're going to coddle back so many of their former customers that maybe have stepped away a little bit, um, because of the way they were treated in the past.

Speaker A: Well, and I would say too, I think Covid put them in a situation where they went from, hey, we've got these cool moody places.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, that you can come hang out in and work all day to. They got rid of all the furniture and it became like, here are some credenzas where you can pick up your mobile order. And there's like no one in the store even.

Speaker B: Yeah, we don't really want you in here, but here. Yeah.

Speaker A: And in some cases they weren't allowed to have people in. And so then all of a sudden it's over and um, we've got to go back and how do you kind of restart those engines? And to your point, it's not just, you know, pleasantries, they've got ceramic cups again. Would you like that for here or to go? I mean that's. That in and of itself is a signal that this place is a place where you can hang out and not just get a paper cup and never stop walking on your way through, uh, through the line. So, um, so it's, it's interesting to see.

Speaker B: Well, and also I've used them probably as an example in maybe all four of my books. If I think back for different reasons, from a leadership, from a service standpoint and you know, like the ceramic cup example, great example. I love that drinking out of a ceramic cup than paper if I'm going to be in there. And that would be more of a service oriented. I think from the reason I even talk about, um, them in this next book in Engagement that rocks is because they still are trendsetters in a lot of ways. I mean part time employees, which they consider 20 hours, still have the capability to get full health insurance.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They can get full college tuition. Maybe not even in our industry, but yet they're willing to pay for it. And even now I think that you're starting to hear, I, um, think they just. I may be wrong. I think they had just increased their um, maternity paternity leave policy. Like I, I think a woman could be out for 18 weeks, something like that. A man could be home for 12 weeks. And all that stuff is, is a lead that they pay for all this. It blows my mind. So whether they get that part time or that's full time. I think they've gone out of their way to be very pro employee. And again, you don't stomp on what Howard Schultz had put together. I, I look at all that and go, there's a reason the brand still exists. Even though they've closed some down, they're opening back up. Um, but I don't remember the new CEO's name, but this guy that's come in there in the last year has really made it about, I'm gonna do what I can for the Starbucks team member, and they're gonna take care of everything else. It isn't that he's ignoring it. He just realizes, like I said, where the fulcrum is. I'm gonna get to the thing that really matters.

Speaker C: Brand narrative is brought to you by the team at Find Some in winmore, the H agency helping brands find and win new customers since 1995. For assistance with brand development, strategy, digital and social media, public relations, and more, visit us on the web at, uh, find some winmore.com or connect with us on social using indsomewinmore.

Speaker A: So let me ask you this, Jim. Um, a lot of things that are going through my mind, but it's, it, it occurs to me that you can't just pat people on the back and tell them how great they are and hope for the best. You know, these are very complex systems that underpin how this service, operations, experience is delivered. Right. Um, I remember when I was, when I was in my 20s, there was this mystery shopping company I signed up for, and I was told that you get, you get to go to dinner for free. M. So you could go to one of these big restaurants, like a big, uh, chain restaurants, like an Olive Garden or a Red, uh, Lobster.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you could get your dinner paid for it. I'm like, sign me up. Just have to give a little feedback. No problem. So I go to dinner, you know, I have my receipt. I'm like, I'd like my money, you know, refunded to me or reimbursed and, like, just fill out this questionnaire for me. And the questionnaire was like, four pages long. And it went from the valet experience. Did the valet say hello to you? Did they offer to give you an umbrella if it was raining all the way down to. Did the hostess give you an expectation of time? Did. Did, um, uh, the person who took you to the table inform you of the specials on the way there? So it was this very extensive system that I was blown away with that I got to see from the other side and so I'm thinking about systems and how the younger generation you talked about before, um, that may in some cases be seen as trampling on their creativity or confining them. Could you talk a little bit about how we can use systems or our systems still being used in these kind of environments to create the experience that we aim for? Talk to me about that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, uh, there are some companies that are still doing systems in place because they understand what got them to where they are is what they're going to continue to use. Have they been flexible? Sure. Um, Ritz Carlton's a good example. I mean, they are very systematized. Um, but they're putting people in that environment who their whole world is to be in hospitality, like, as a career. It's not a stepping stone to go do whatever it is you're going to do. Um, they do hire some youthful people. And of course people do use that and go do something else. But I think it really depends on how serious you are about the business, whether it's important enough for you to put some system in place. I am a systems guy, I think, and I'm joking about this, but I think you can almost trick anybody into leadership. I think if you could sort of get them to do all these things that you put into place, if they did them consistently, the output, the end user is going to be a, uh, fantastic leader. We know that's not always going to be the case, but I have more of a chance to do that than I just throw somebody at the deep end and go, you're awesome, man. Good luck. You know, use whatever, pull whatever drawstrings you, you want to, especially you've been experienced for 20, 30 years. Doesn't always work. Certainly didn't work in my environment when I was talking about Hard Rock, because most of these people in that environment had never been exposed to what we'd done before. Most of the floor managers at, ah, Hard Rock Cafe had to be general manager somewhere else. They had to have managed people and money because they know, they know food and they know beverage. They might even know a little bit about retail, but for the most part, they know nothing about retail. Local marketing, group sales, dealing with celebrities, dealing with live music, like that's all foreign to them. Any external person we hired at that company were completely and totally broken from what we actually needed. So you kind of have, it's like the, you know, the military. You had to break people down to get them to do what you wanted. If they were internally promoted, you know what they knew the culture, they got it, they had it, man. It was awesome. But you know what they'd never done before, any of that other stuff, they never managed people and processes of money and budgets and all that stuff. So everybody always had to have some sort of learning that we put into place. I am a big believer of putting systems in place, but you're right, the problem is today's workforce. And again, I'm going to throw an entire generation under the bus for a second. I feel like, um, the problem is they're not getting the types of things that you and I would get, either at school or from their parents. Because I'm a huge believer that everything is learned behavior. Like I said earlier, you learn everything. So if you've never, ever, ever learned how to count change or make eye contact or use a mop or any, like, basic fundamental things that somebody taught us in home ec, my mom taught me, I took a typing class, whatever it is, like, all of these things that maybe were considered soft skills, they never got anywhere. So somebody, a business has to make a choice. Either you look at somebody and go, man, that's a great personality, but they don't know anything. Uh, uh, either it's going to be their first job and maybe it's their right job, or somebody's not going to give them a chance and so they're going to struggle out there. But I feel like, you know, although you're right, if you put a lot of systems in place, there are probably going to be some. You know, I would even get past the millennials now. Let's just say Gen Z and Gen Alpha, I guess, is the next one that's coming. I think that people will look at that and go, man, that's too much work. That's too many rules in place and they'll just bail and go somewhere else. But I think you just, you just saved yourself a lot of hassle. That's an accident, an issue waiting to happen down the road. I think the ones that are willing to give it their all, they again, got that gumption. They got the, the intensity, the drive, the, the desire to go out there, make a difference from somewhere. And I, I got a tiger by the tail and they're here. I think that they'll be more likely to go ahead and jump on the system. So, you know, I think to each their own. It depends on the business that you're talking about. Um, I think even when you do that, though, I do think there has to be a little bit of flexibility.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: You know, if They've got a first name basis with the boss. If there's no problem of, uh, maybe pushing back, challenging the status quo, which again is what today's workforce wants. They want to be able to say why do we do it that way? Or could we try it different and not have any fear of something happening? Me, my boss isn't going to stomp on me. Maybe they're even going to celebrate my moxie because I'm thinking differently to make the business better. Like it's a different mindset and if you're an old school legacy leader, that's going to be a problem for you. But if you're open minded to go, here's the systems we have in place. The really good ones I don't even have to worry about. They're going to jump on it, but I'm going to have to coerce and spend a little bit of time and energy to get a lot of others to do it, that's fine. And the ones that could care less about doing it, I got no love for them. I'd rather them go work somewhere else.

Speaker A: So where do you see when you, when you come into companies and you work with them or when you're given a keynote speech and I've seen some of your, I've uh, seen one of your keynote talks to a huge audience at an airline. Um, which was awesome.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you, man.

Speaker A: When you have the talks, after the talk.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What are the things that you, that typically you see them getting wrong? Uh, when it comes to all of this engagement and culture, do you see commonalities and kind of the basics where there might be missing?

Speaker B: Well, maybe because I speak more than I consult now. I mean I use consulting and those discussions become opportunistic. But I'm always looking for a different stop along the road show, if you will. Like what else could I do? Small little video, a webinar. Maybe they bring me back the next year. But when it's just a pure talk and then I'm doing some follow up, like how are things are going on the set list, these things that people were writing down, it might be a couple months down the road, it's one of two things. Either one, they have uh, focused all their energy on that event. Because when you come out of the, and this is the biggest problem with conferences I feel, anyway, you go to the event, you get inspired, you get all ginned up and then you go right back to the thick of thin things. You're ensconced in the, the middle of all the day to day stuff. And sometimes you're in constant just mediocrity and you never get a chance to reflect back on how awesome that was and all the learning that you got from everybody, myself included, like the stuff that I spent, the time and the energy. I just wanted one thing for you to run with and resonate with you. Um, but if you never do that, you never reflect on or you never have time to do it, then then it's all for not. And again, I just think you wasted a lot of money and time and energy and effort and rigor to go to this thing. Um, and you waste a lot of money on me. Um, I think the ones, the second piece that I really do worry about is now I sort of look at the leadership and I go, what you did is you spent a lot of time and energy gathering everybody together, but now you're focused again on things, on the minutiae, the practical tactical nuts and bolts of the business which has to be done. You and I started the podcast today talking about that there's interested in, uh, you know, changing the menu design and painting the walls. And maybe they went and did a little bit and upped a little bit of the, you know, what people are going to get from a bonus potential. Maybe they really did decide we're going to change these ancillary things which really don't make a whole heck of a lot of sense whenever you're still hiring. You know people that are lip synchers, you know people that if you put some slacker beside me and I'm awesome, um, I'm a rock star. The first thing I'm m doing is looking at the person like you're the best they could get. But the second thing I'm doing is I'm looking at the boss going, this is the best you could do? And I'm questioning you, do you even know the business? Do you even know how to interview and hire? So I'm walking around with a mopey face and, and I'm sort of using an example here saying if it isn't, they never have time to reflect on what we did and revisit that. The second part is they go back to focusing on the things that are important. But it's not going to get you to nirvana. It's going to have to be about the humans. And so I'm always hoping that these business leaders who, unless they're already doing it and they're already fantastic in that realm and most of them are not. I usually get hired because they're trying to either get back on track or to amp it up or they're brand new concept and let's just keep the gravy train. Keep that culture awesome at a high level. Most of the time I'm not. It's. We've been around for 30 years. We lost our way. We need help. We need different thought, we need different perspective. I think they get, they focus back on the wrong things. They're not focusing on the people again. So for me, that's my biggest crutch. If leaders just focus on the team members, all the rest of it is going to take care of itself. But um, you know, I'm biased by that because I'm a people oriented guy and I've been in training and development and human resources my whole life.

Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. Well, and it's, it's, um, it is the people. It always comes down to the people. Especially in the service companies that we're talking about, ours included. It's, it's the people and how they make the clients feel and how the clients make the people feel. I mean it's, it's a, it's a, um, a virtuous circle. Um, and incidentally, you talk about virtuous, virtuous versus vicious environments. And I'm sure like that, that almost feels like the um, the um, the cauldron that all this is created within. Um, and, and that's just. You got to have the, a virtuous environment. Right, To.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: To cultivate all of this.

Speaker B: Well, and if you remember that it's two circles, but the Venn diagram, the overlap are the people. It's who do you go and hire? Because if you hire the right ones, you're going to be in a virtuous environment. And you can point to a whole lot of other things. I am a, uh, big believer. This is why companies like Southwest like you talked about, or Chick fil A, you know, they swear, they swear the only reason they are where they are is because of their people. You could steal, you know, the boarding process of Southwest. You want to do bags for free, you could do that. Blah, blah, blah. You could, you could copy every one of our practical tactical steps. But if you can't get my people, you're never going to be able to replicate the culture. Chick Fil a would say the same thing. You want to go and steal and replicate and knock off our chicken sandwich and how we do our buildings and even what we do in the drive through, which is amazing to people who like fast food, they go you can do all that stuff, but you know what? You can't get our cool kids, can't get our people. And if you can't steal them, then you're never going to be able to replicate the culture. So there's just too many awesome examples out there of brands that actually do that the right way. And they're, they are firmly involved in the virtuous environment, but the day they stop focusing on the right hires, they will morph over to a vicious environment. I could point to a date on the calendar when they'll go out of business.

Speaker A: Well, I can believe that. And it makes me think too. We were at, um, because we talk about hiring a lot and makes me think about promoting because m. Um, we went to Universal Studios with uh, our 10 year old, it was his birthday, took a couple of his friends and we were in, um, the new park, uh, Epic Universe, which is. I'm not a theme park guy, but the place is awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's really been in there yet.

Speaker A: And so we're there on this ride. And some of the kids were wanting to go on this ride, others didn't. I ended up, I ended up taking two of the boys on the ride and I get to the front of the line, the guy said, hey, you need four. You know, this ride requires four people because of the balance or whatever. So he goes, I'll go with you. So this guy, 20, probably 28, 29 years old, could not have been nicer. He's talking to me about the ride. He's going, hey, be careful, it's gonna spin here. He goes, you know, how's your day been at the park? Um, where do you guys live? Where are you going next? At the very end of the ride, he says, hey, come here for a second. He goes, I heard you guys saying you wanted to go on this other ride. Here's four fast passes to get to the front of the line.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: And I'm, I'm walking off there going, somebody ought to be promoting that dude.

Speaker B: Yeah, y.

Speaker A: You know, because that's, you want more of that, um, that intention, that care and that, that sort of cultivation of the, the, the experience. So how does promoting, um, you know, fit into all of this?

Speaker B: Well, you doing it yourself, I mean, Universal is going to love hearing that story. I mean, those are the things that make a difference. I mean, when people write themselves into the story, you know, where, here's a, here's you guys are on a family vacation out there now, you're more apt to take a selfie. With the family, but include the team member because it was a great experience. And that's one of those. Ten years from now, you'll still remember the guy, you know, whatever his name was. Um, you know, I think that that would probably be a little bit more, uh, unlikely than likely, you know, because that's a massive theme park and you happen to have gotten the right guy. The good thing, I think Epic Universe and I know people that are involved in that are doing everything in their power to make that the greatest theme park experience you can find. So somehow, either that guy is like that no matter what, or they've done a phenomenal job in their orientation, their onboarding, their training to go. This is what it looks like. At the very least, when you're talking about promotion, that story should be captured somewhere. They should be using that as an example. I kind of hope he doesn't get promoted unless that's what he really desires, because you want him in that role and you want him creating these memories that people are never going to forget. Like, I thought. I thought at first it was just some, you know, another random guess. You're talking about an employee did that. And so just during that discussion, created a moment. You know, it's like, um, now, again, I don't know Universal's policy, but Disney used to empower all 60,000 of their employees to say, listen, you work for the mouse, you know, seven hours and 45 minutes out of the day. But 15 minutes, you're empowered to create a magical moment with somebody that they'll never forget. The rest of the day, it's the same in, you know, intent, right? Here's somebody at Epic Universe going, I am going to find now. Now, I think he's doing this all day long, but let's just say he did it with just you and just your family.

Speaker A: But.

Speaker B: But he doesn't know who you are. And now here you are on a platform where you're pushing it out to thousands of people that are listening. It is thousands, right, Matt? We do, yeah.

Speaker A: At least my mom's listening. I know that.

Speaker B: 3. So that's me, you, and her. So that's good. You know, I think, you know, you have a platform that you can deliver it on this. It just makes people go, wow, I hope I get Joey when I go out to Epic Universe. Or I hope I get that same experience. But, boy, those. Those types of stories, they need to be captured and shared. So from a promotion standpoint, I think Epic Universe in general should figure out how to do that. Like Zappos they capture all these cultural stories. There's a Zappos book. Every single employee gets to write their name. And you get a copy of that thing, you're in constant. Their history forever. Um, Boy, I wish more companies were to do something like that. It's pretty neat.

Speaker A: Yeah, they're, they're, they're crazy, uh, in the sense. I don't know if they still do this. From the beginning with Tony Hsieh, I remember they put you through orientation.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Two or three weeks of training. You know where I'm going with this. And at the very end, they said, here's like three grand.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: If you quit. Yeah. If you go away.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And because they know it takes the money.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Nobody takes money because they want to be there. And if they take the money, then that tells them something. Something.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: I was about to let you off the hook, but I'm going to go into one more thing, because you mentioned storytelling. I know that's part of your keynote, Harnessing the power of Storytelling. And you just mentioned it. So can you talk a little bit more about that? Like, conceptually, how can we apply that? Because storytelling isn't, it's a big word here a lot, but so you, you kind of gave us a glimpse into how we can use it.

Speaker B: Yeah, it depends on what talk I'm doing. But I, I, you know, first off, it's the oldest training there ever was, is telling stories. So one of the things you learn as a keynote speaker is, you know, and I'm guilty this as well. I might have a piece of paper where I'm having people write down my 8, 10 takeaways, whatever it is, they're not going to remember all those. They might reflect on it. What they're going to remember is how I made them feel from the stage. And the only way you do that is through two, three, four stories. So if I'm doing a service that rocks, if I'm focusing on how do I get the customer, the guests to really come back, spend more money, talk about me positively, there are some stories that I would use there. If I'm talking about employee engagement, same thing. I'm going to use some stories to say, here are some things that happened that got me to, uh, continuously keep coming back and stay with the company. So storytelling for me, I think a lot of people miss that. And even in the onboarding and training that people do, I think the more that you can give people a story so that they can put themselves in the place of the, the the main character to go, oh, that could happen to me. Or, oh, I could be the person that makes that thing happen. The more likely that you're going to get some stickiness inside their mind. So, you know, there, there's I, I can think of a ton of stories. I mean, the real quick one that I can think about, and this is only because I just had a conversation with a convenience store company, um, that I'm probably going to go and speak for in the next six months. I was telling them about a story about when I'm working outside and I'm just all sweaty when I just been doing yard work. And I do the same thing if I'm ever fishing, if I'm out on the water. There is something about yard work and being on a boat that when I come off of that, whatever those duties are, I'm like, I just want a great big old huge soda, you know, 44 ounce Coca Cola, biggest I could get. And, uh, so I jump in the car, I'm filthy as I'll get out, but I'm just dying to have that soda. I drive and, uh, I pass other convenience stores to go to the one that I actually like. And I go in there and I got the big huge thing. I'm standing in line, there's only two people behind me. It's my turn. I get up to the counter and the kid behind the counter goes, uh, is that it? And I was like, a little offended, like, oh, man, I feel so bad. Like, was I supposed to buy something else? But, um, he immediately then went, it's on me today, brother. And I was like, what? And so I turned around because I thought maybe the line was long, but it wasn't. And so my mind starts going to a lot of places super quick. Like, do I look like a sad sack? Like I can't afford it? Uh, has he recognized me? And I feel like I'm a regular. Um, does. Is he empowered to give away? You know, because I'm doing the math. I know how much a cup in ice and drink is. I'm like, yeah, it's probably about 20 cents, totally. But he lost about A$50 in sales. But what he got with me is a. He bought me for another year. I'm never gonna not go there for myself. I will skip everybody else to go there. And I have no idea why he did this, but he made me feel it was sort of like the Starbucks example that you were given just for someone to go, it's on me today, man, $50. But what he did is he just bought me a little bit more loyalty. That story from the stage, if I was doing it in front of food and beverage people or a convenience store, will resonate with them. They will remember that more than the 10 things I'm going to give them. So I think harnessing the power of storytelling, I think in any way that we're disseminating information to people, we should look for ways, whether it's a personal story or something that you've seen or some statistic or whatever it is in a, a fun, light way. I think it gives people a little bit more, um, to, to munch on than you want me to remember these 10 steps. So storytelling is, uh, it's one of the oldest forms of communication and I, I love using it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm a big fan. Um, especially with brands like you should cultivate those stories in a library in some respect. Because those stories, you're right, it's, it's, um. If you watch seven bullets in a PowerPoint slide, but someone tells you the story, you're not gonna remember any of the bullets, but you'll remember the story.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker A: There's even science behind it, so.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Well, Jim, if someone wants to write you a huge, ah, check with lots of zeros in the end, uh, to give a keynote address or buy a pallet of books, how can they learn more about you and what you do?

Speaker B: I like your thinking. I'll take both. Please back up the truck. You can take the books and drop off the money. Um, all roads lead to my website, man. Thank you so much for, for asking. It's Night speaker, so it's my last name. K N I G H T speaker dot com. And, uh, you'll see all of the books on here. You know, for those that are not just listening, they're visual. I've got those three books that make up the Culture that Rock series, which was really just a dissemination of my first book. I mean, that thing, I had to break that thing down and write these smaller versions. But, um, that's. You get a hold of me and. Or just to chat with me. You know, I put out content every day, Video, Bl blog, um, I'm sharing a lot of what's going on both in my business and personal life. I've got those Facebook pages separated, but Instagram, x, uh, LinkedIn, I play in all the spaces. So. Man, I can't thank you enough for just having me on. That means a lot.

Speaker A: Hey, Jim, it's always fun to connect and, um, go write a few more books and we'll do this again.

Speaker B: Okay, I'm ready, man. I stand ready. Talk to you soon. Rock on, brother.

Speaker C: Thank you for listening to this episode of Brand Narrative. For more information on the show, please Visit us at brandnarrative fm.m if you have a marketing question or topic you'd like for us to address in a future show, please email your question as a voice memo to feedbackrandnarrative fm. Um, if you are enjoying the show, please leave us a review wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.