Customer Context: Heidi Bullock on the Missing Layer in AI-Powered B2B Marketing

Hello and welcome to the Beyond B2B Marketing podcast. I'm your host, Lee Odin, CEO of Top Rank Marketing. And today our guest is someone who has worked in the B2B marketing space for nearly 25 years, having served as VP and CMO roles at Marketo and Engagio. And she was recently named to the B2B CMO 100 list by the new B2B CMO project, which is co-led by our previous guest, John Miller. uh Today, she is Chief Marketing Officer at real-time customer data platform, Telium. And of course, I'm talking about Heidi Bullock. Welcome. Heidi, I'm so sorry. I've done that two times in the entire time I've had this podcast. I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna restart. I appreciate your patience. Is that intro okay, by the way? That is an amazing intro. I'm like, oh wow, that's so nice of you. But yeah, anytime you have to stop or whatever, it doesn't bother me, I'm good. fact, maybe I'll just keep on going. I'll start with welcome to the show and we'll just edit it out. All right. Welcome to the show, Heidi. Thanks for having me, Lee. This will be a lot of fun. I agree, I agree. So the theme of this episode is all about customer contacts, but let's kick things off with your B2B marketing origin story. How did you first get into marketing? You know, it's, it's a really interesting journey. I actually started, a lot of people don't know this. started off in research, actually in molecular biology. So very much on the product and development side of things. And something that really, I think crossed teams basically said, you have a way of explaining things that makes sense and you don't use too much technical jargon. get the value. And so I just had sort of a crossover. where then I got more into product marketing. And then that led me obviously into other marketing roles and, definitely more on the B2B side of things. But I think what was interesting is just the whole importance of translating information away that people understand. And that's something that I feel like I've always tried to do a lot of. And yeah, that's really what kind of moved me over from more of a product role to marketing. Yeah, know, the translation uh capability is super important uh and it requires a lot of special soft skills, I think, know, empathy and uh just really an understanding of what's the what are the things that your buyer needs to know your audience needs to know, right. And there's usually a difference between how a brand thinks of those things and how buyers actually think of those things. Right. So, yeah, I think I can appreciate many people listening in or watching can appreciate that value of translation. uh I want to ask about, you know, kind of the difference between, you know, what's been happening as in terms of status quo and part of our goal for the show is to help people break out of status quo marketing. Um, and what's, what's current now. So for, for many years, B2B marketers have been optimizing around, you know, specific channels or campaigns and, even content, but I'm wondering, do you think customer context has become more of a competitive advantage when it comes to things like AI discovery, AI powered marketing. I mean, I definitely would say it is. mean, kind of going back to your first point, I think the evolution I've seen is that you're right. B2B marketers historically thought a lot about channels. And in a way now, I think we're really shifting for thinking about the customer first. And as we all know, customers don't think in channels. They just go about their business in their day to day. And I think the thing that I'm seeing is that, and this is just what I'm observing and maybe I'll be wrong, but I think AI and a lot of the tools they ultimately are becoming commoditized. We know that with the models. And so the thing that is unique and powerful is really the context. And so that's where people should be spending their time and energy. And again, we're seeing it all the time in the market. A new model will come out. And so you might at first have preferred one, now another one, but it's really the context that you're putting into models that is what is unique and what companies need to be focused on. That is so true. um mean, it's kind of like it's becoming the notion of providing context, at least from a chat level, uh is kind of table stakes, right? I mean, it's like people, know, so many people have evolved from just using from a chat perspective, uh like a search engine, right? Asking questions, simple prompts, that sort of thing. And obviously people have accelerated in their sophistication uh at providing. uh instructions and more elegant prompts and that sort of thing all the way to, is it that you connect through MCP to other data sources for ingestion? And then I'm sure there's a whole set of best practices around how that uh adds to customer context so you can get the right and the most relevant outputs, right? uh I think everyone... and everyone they know is rushing to implement AI tools right now. And in that rush, I'm kind of wondering whether you think most organizations actually have the maturity they need around customer data to make AI really useful, and not just from an efficiency standpoint, but from an impact standpoint. What are you seeing? Yeah, so I'm seeing, I mean, I think there's always companies that are ahead and are doing it really, really well, especially again, for us, like I work a lot with more B2C organizations. So would say some of, you know, large retailers, I definitely think in the retail space doing pretty well, thinking through their customer data foundation. They're thinking about where I'm collecting data could be point of sale data, all the things and making sure they have a singular view of the customer. Now, B. in some cases is ahead with AI because I think sometimes there's less of, I would say I'm observing less legal issues. So in some cases, the AI adoption is a little bit quicker, but the overall data foundation is weaker. There's still a lot of siloed data. I think data quality is a problem, identity, consent, and really a way to think about collecting signals. across all the systems and having one view of those. So I think there's still a long way to go there. Like I see people jumping to the tools before they're thinking about the data. And again, like I said, I think in the consumer space, folks are a little more ahead in that area. But in B2B, the thought of like even building a data foundation, that term is new for a lot of people. You know, you're making me think about something I probably should have asked you already um in terms of the solution that Thielium, your company, provides. Can you give us a high level overview of those solutions and how that, you know, reconciles with customer context and identity? I mean, we historically have been thinking of it as almost a data supply chain. So what we help companies do is collect data, which is really important. And we do that with consent. We do that in real time, which matters. So that could be, you know, think about behavioral data, what somebody is doing on their mobile device, their phone, bringing that together with other data types that can be, like I said, point of sale data, that could be IOT data. Then making sure that all that data is in fact you know, consented, structured, organized, that it's, say as an example, it's Leoden, and you might have, the simple example is people have multiple email addresses, making sure all of that is brought together. it has the right context, and then that can be activated in real time. So then we work with different tools in the B2B space. of simple examples like a braze, a marketo, so making sure that data is accurate and then can be activated through those respective channels. um think of it really as a uh very real time data supply chain. that way, even now we're doing a lot of work with the data clouds, like a snowflake, Databricks, um and making sure that the data that is living in those systems of record is really up to date and fresh. Which, I mean, that's the simplest way of thinking about it. Because again, we all know this. You can have the best. um tools, the best stack. But if your data is inaccurate, broken, or even not consented, you're not going to be able to send a great email. It'll be incorrect or it might not, you might be advertising to somebody who's already bought your product, right? So people purchase us to really avoid all of that. You know, it's interesting you say that because I mean, it's great to hear, learn about that because I've had a previous guest on from eMarketer who was talking, an analyst who was talking about the data governance is probably one of the key, like she's one of the top, this is one of the top things B2B companies need to be focused on this year. It's like one of the most important things because as you say, you know, without good data, without solid data, you know, it's like, what are you propagating then? It's like hitting the golf ball just a little bit off, down 200 yards, you're way off. And then today, that accuracy isn't probably 100 % achievable, but being as accurate as possible certainly is. Right, right. And you touched on consent. just think that that, I that's really where you're building trust with people. And so that is just, that is like to me, if people walk away from this with one piece of information, just make sure that you're collecting consented data and acting on that in the right way. Because the minute that's broken, you've just really eroded, obviously trust, but everything that you've built so, so, you know, all that time, right? You spend all that time thinking through the programs, building everything. having your perfect stack and then if you're using data that is you know not consented to you've got a real problem. Yeah, yeah. No sense creating liabilities, let alone ineffective uh marketing, right? So you've said in the past that AI without context produces generic experiences. And I'm wondering with that context itself, what kinds of customer uh insight or context stand out as the most significant opportunities for marketers at B2B brands right now? for B2B, I would definitely say real time behavior is something for people to be thinking about because again, a lot of B2B marketers, think again, that on the consumer side, think B2C companies have done that better, but the ability to have real time data where somebody's interacting with your website, the ability to have zero and first party data is a really important thing. Thinking about their role, buying group is another important one and having a good understanding of that. consent intent and that those signals we've mean again your audience knows about that and I would say an understanding which comes back to the real-time behavior of where somebody is in their journey and I think historically in b2b and we'll probably talk about this more you've had marketing ops people or rev ops people trying to architect this the best they can but the real unlock to me is having these real-time signals that then you can use and you're getting rid of the guesswork. That's what we're trying to do. Well, that's insightful. um And obviously every competitive advantage a company can gain right now, the better, right? The competition is fierce for time and attention and having better signals and even real-time signals, I can imagine um how that creates advantage. You've worked with some pretty big names here, Marketo, Engagio, and Autelium. And I'm curious, during that time, It seems like personalization has played a really important role in how you've approached marketing. And I'm curious, how has personalization changed during that time? know, since, you know, when you were with Marketo, working with John and team in terms of what's possible today, especially in an IEI environment. I feel like historically it was very, this is, I'll be honest, I think it was very aspirational in a lot of cases. I think people thought of like, oh, I'm using first name, last name and that's personalization. Or, you know, I know that this, you know, group of individuals, they're in financial services and we're serving up them up that content. think. and I, I'm being a little tongue in cheek. Of course there's organizations that have done it well, but I feel like it was very much rules-based. Again, it was, you know, a lot of marketing operations, people having to think through if this, then that, what are we going to serve somebody? And it's really, I would say historically it was based on. information, but it was static information. And it was, you depended on really smart people to do this, which was also a limiting factor because if you didn't have a great marketing ops team that could think through this, your personalization and all those flows wouldn't be great. I'd say the biggest difference now again, comes back to having that real time data. And it's not guessing, it's using signals and what's actually happening to be able to create not what I would say is a step-by-step set of actions, but a real honest orchestration for somebody, like an experience that makes sense for them. I think that's the goal and what we're all trying to do. And what I would say is now with AI and a lot of the real-time data. you have the ability to actually do that, which is amazing because I think, I think marketers are really smart. They've always had this as a vision. The tools were somewhat limiting to be able to actually create it. And, you know, we can debate by our journeys a lot because I think in a way we all know that there's not just one journey that say like a CMO takes or an IT leader, like that, that's very constructed. And I think what there may be an IT leader that's really knowledgeable. And based on their behavior, they only need one piece of information to make a decision or they've bought your product in the past. So you don't need to send them, you know, 50 things or invite them to 20 events. And then there may be somebody else. They need that. so using those behavioral signals to me is what's fundamentally changed. And then with AI, like, and I'm saying AI generically, but you know, lot of the tools that people are using, we're using copy AI and we can create. based on signals, really relevant messaging and content in that moment and deliver that to people. And you just can see how much better that performs. You know, it's interesting with these kinds of changes and the increased sophistication in use of personalization, I wonder about the rising expectations on the buyer side, right? Is that as more and more messages that hit audiences are effectively personalized, doesn't that start to raise the bar in terms of, wow, If you're not using personalization, really stand out or you don't stand out, meaning that you kind of get lost in the mix because your competitors are so effective at personalizing and on the buyer side, you're starting to expect it because it's becoming more common and more uh again, more sophisticated, right? uh I think that's something that companies need to think about. They absolutely do. And what I always have told people, and I feel like Amazon was like the first at this, right? Like you're a buyer, they're a consumer, right? Like I think in our world, we sometimes think of like, oh, this is a B2B buyer, but they're a person, right? They're a human being. And so they have all these other experiences. So if they're using Amazon all the time, and it's like very personalized and they're getting deliveries that day. I mean, people, the bar is high. I mean, we've talked about this for a long time, but what's exciting to me, And I hope people feel motivated by, is it B2B? A lot of this is achievable now. The tools are there. The technology is there. You just have to be a person that is curious and plays around with a lot of the tools. And ultimately, you can create these really powerful experiences for people. And you're right. If you don't do it, you will just fail. And I think what I'm seeing is all of that's happening faster. It's just sped up. And so it becomes very clear when somebody has a good experience or a bad one and people's patience just isn't there. You're just going to lose up. Yeah. exactly. It's going to swipe. uh So at our company, Top Rank Marketing, we have a framework that we've built that's around helping brand content become the best answer, as we call it, the most trusted, discoverable answer wherever buyers are looking or asking questions. And within that framework, there are six pillars, one of which is called Data Informed, where we pull in or ingest customer insights and those are what's used to create a strategy that is customized according to where, not just what questions buyers are asking, but where they're asking them and how to make those answers the most trusted. So my question with that context is how important is customer context in creating, know, like customized experiences uh that both humans and AI systems perceive as relevant. one word critical, maybe two words, critical and essential. Yeah, it's imperative. You need to do that so AI can read that so it can produce a uh relevant, timely, specific answer. So it's critical for that and it's critical for the buyer so they feel... that you understand what they're looking for and it creates that relationship and that trust. I mean, I'm going to keep coming back to that word, but I think that the more relevant and timely, again, with that provided context, a buyer is going to trust you and ultimately create preference, which is what we're trying to do. Yeah, exactly. It's creating confidence. And that confidence isn't the same during the whole journey, right? It's as we're learning about things, considering things, and decisioning on things. But we also have to defend those things, right? And confidence is the relevance factor. And trust are essential at creating that type of confidence wherever the buyer or buyer group happened to be during the process. Obviously, search and discovery at large is becoming even more fragmented. You remember, we've been around a little bit. We know when the back in the days of just Google was such a singular powerful driver of attention and visibility. But today, people are popping back and forth. They go to AI tools, they get recommendations. Maybe they go to Google to validate or vice versa, or they hear something in industry media from a peer. and they validate with an AI tool. so, you know, looking at information sources, whether it's a community, a sub stack, Reddit, podcast, wherever, I guess my question is what changes do you think B2B marketers need to be making and how they approach their customer insights? Yeah, it's a really good question. I love this question because I think it's more important than ever. And I think it's also, I think really hard. I'm just going to say that first and foremost. I think that there are, there's so much that is posted on this realm, like the dark funnel and what you can do. But I think, and what I would tell people is it's important for your organization and your, whatever your product you're selling, understanding number one, where those communities are. And that's kind of like step one. So to me, dark funnel could be people going to dream force, having conversations there. It could be them going to your YouTube channel or some thought leaders YouTube channel where they learn about the product and they see little hacks or tips and tricks. Everyone loves Reddit, of course, but first identifying where those groups are like our G2 trust radius, like the review sites like you mentioned. And I think in different industries, those could look different. Like, so as an example, maybe for us, YouTube is really big. Maybe Reddit, there's not as much conversation. So just kind of first and foremost, identify where those communities are for you too. Now, this is the hard part. Are you present in those conversations and are you thoughtful about it? And I think that's what a lot of people in B2B, I think, have done pretty well with the review sites and thinking through that. I think in other cases, maybe YouTube, Reddit, some of the other areas. less so in figuring that out. I will say, mean, dark funnels also like content syndication, right? Putting out content, making sure that you're in the mix. So just again, like understanding kind of the landscape, I think is step one, being part of the conversation too. And three, the piece that I think is hard and people don't think enough about is, then how am I tracking that? Right? So then how am I understanding how I'm doing in Reddit or how my YouTube uh engagement is performing or on Twitter, those conversations happening. Am I a part of that? And so that's the other thing that I would tell people super critical, but almost work, like start backwards and say, how would I track that? So I know it's good, right? Like this comes up a lot right now with LLMs. It's like, Hey, I might be showing up in, in, coming up in these particular questions. Am I credible? Am I relevant? And do I know that I'm showing up? That's an important thing. we're using a tool called Profound that helps us know that, and then trying to do the tracking also in using GA4, which is helpful. But I'm not going to sit here and say that I can see every signal possible. There's some that are very hard, I think. Yeah. Yeah, actually, Trevor uh is going to be from real profound is going to be a guest here in a couple of weeks. So, uh yeah, very, very timely. So many, so many marketers fall victim to this idea of like, what are the what's the most important channel or, you know, and start gravitating like to the shiny object of that versus the empathetic act of understanding the information journey. How are your buyers discovering information? What are their content preferences? So what channels, what content formats, and then also what are the things that are going to motivate them to take action? And architecting that is really a big part of being effective regardless of what the channel mix might be. So which, as you know, it could be different from one buyer group to another, let alone from one company to another. But with your fingers on the data, fingers on the pulse of the data, well, then you can with confidence. start to architect that kind of signal that generates the credibility and the consistency and proof that buyers and LLMs increasingly are looking for in order to choose whether that's a choice for you to show up as an answer or as a choice for the buying committee to make a decision on. So a lot of programs, and ABM is still a hot topic as it were in B2B and a lot of ABM programs are still focused on targeting accounts, right? But it seems like the future about around B2B marketing is less about, you know, like static targeting a specific account and more about something that's a little more dynamic where marketers are orchestrating according to customer signals, these changing customer signals and increasingly these signals that change in real time. What do you think about that? Is that on target or no? I think it's a hundred percent on target. mean, you and I'm hoping that more people are moving in that direction. I think you're right. We still see, I even still see pieces of content around ABM programs where it's like target your buying group and you do do all these things, but without really understanding the dynamic nature of that, it's kind of goes back to my earlier point. There's not one perfect customer journey. It's not like, we open our, you know, I don't know, folder and out or five journeys for our wires and that's it. It's just not how it works. And so I think the more people can think about that your listeners can think about, and this is something we've done a lot at Telia. We, we definitely think about targeting key accounts and in certain industries for sure. But we really try to understand within an account, there's still people, right? There's still individuals and a CFO at one organization might be very different than one at another. Like I said, maybe they've. already seen this type of product, they were happy to rubber stamp it. There may be somebody else who needs tons and tons of data and ROI analysis before they move forward. And how can you as a business understand those signals in real time so then you can inform your programs? so I couldn't agree with that more, and I think it's really critical. We actually have some very interesting data that shows that one of our customers, they're a big global consumer brand showed us that basically 15 seconds of real time data was more meaningful than like a lot more historical data. So they just showed, and you can think of this with Netflix, right? Like what if Netflix targeted you on what you watched six years ago? It's, or what if there's examples, like what if you're like, Hey, like I'm very interested in hearing about the weather today because I'm taking a trip to San Diego and you got that three days later. It's not helpful. doesn't matter, right? And so I think what people need to see is some of that historical data, great, it matters and maybe some of it will not change, but making sure you're amending that with real time signals is so critical to be able to target people effectively. Right, right. So the bar has absolutely raised in terms of the need to more dynamically and within a short time span be able to create relevant experiences um for bias. Because they expect it, right? And it's also more effective. And it's better for both sides, right? So it's a better experience for buyer. And it's for you too, great. You don't have to set up a five-step nurture, right? It's like understanding, like based on signals and input and action, it just makes it a lot easier and I think more effective on both sides. So at Top Rank Marketing, we are in the habit of conducting original research on influencer marketing, on thought leadership, and always at the intersection of those things as content. And our research has consistently shown that trust, expertise, and credibility are more important in BB buying decisions, especially in AI visibility uh situations. uh So my question is, how does customer context contribute? to building this kind of trust? And not just from an awareness standpoint, but how does customer context help drive throughout the entire buying journey all the way to conversion? I just think, I mean, a simple example, just so we can make it real for people, context is information that you have about somebody, right? So say as an example, I go to a website and it says, hey, we've noticed you've purchased these shoes. Like in that moment, if something surfaces, you might also be interested in these really cool shorts that match. And then I can maybe provide some information in real time. I'm giving a simple example with zero party data. It's like we're creating a relationship and we're getting valuable information that then you can say, cool. And now I might provide a discount code for you. So it ends up being a trusted good interaction because you're creating an experience based on data that I've provided or a signal that I've given. it's, we're basically reducing friction versus the opposite of that might be guessing. And say you don't do that. I'm on the site. I bought shoes before. uh Maybe I end up buying the shorts on my own and then I get targeted for uh You know an ad and I'm like I've already bought those shorts Why am I getting all of these ads and emails and all this stuff? It's just doesn't make sense and it's also not good for the business because you're spending money on it and so Context is a way of knowing your buyer and again what we're talking about is real-time context So it's up-to-date and current and to me it's reducing friction, but it's just creating that relationship, it's making sure that you have the right information on somebody so you can make sure that you're delivering the experience they would expect. So it's really, really important. I think uh maybe you've had this experience, I know I've had it with Amazon in the past, a pioneer and collaborative filtering and all that, buy something and then you get all these ads for the very thing you just bought. I haven't had that experience in a while, but it always made me wonder. It's like, there's gotta be some algorithmic reason why they're doing this because it can't, purely it doesn't make me happy. I'm sure it doesn't make anybody else add value to their experience. And it's expensive for them. shouldn't be, you don't want to spend money on something that, right, you've made that conversion. So that's, it's just so, so important. And like I said, making sure, just even touching on consent, maybe somebody's consent preferences change. That's context. You don't want to get that wrong, right? Like, so maybe I've seen it with my mom or maybe she'll purchase something that she's like, Oh, I want to opt out of their text messages to me. Now, say your systems are delayed. You're not getting that information to update that context. That's a problem if she continues to get those messages. So just, I'm just trying to give real examples of this really matters a lot. It does matter. So one of the longstanding opportunities within uh B2B, of course, is sales and marketing alignment. And how should that alignment change, do you think, uh when it comes to AI systems that are playing more of a role during the discovery, consideration, evaluation process? I just first have to say this wouldn't be a B2B podcast if we didn't have that. I love it. I love it. It's almost like someday I'm like, I love that to never be a question again. So, I mean, I feel like first and foremost, you need alignment. It's so critical for the business. Everyone's trying to drive bookings, revenue, retention, all of those things. And I think with AI, it just makes it even more important. And to me, it's really about having a shared set of data and a shared set of signals that everyone has the same view on. You don't want your team operating off. Well, I look at these calls and I'm understanding these signals and the marketing teams like, we have the G2 signal and some other things and they're not combined and there's not one view of that. So I think for everyone that's listening, the key is making sure that you have people that are not thinking about data in silos. To me, when I think of the revenue team, I think of your customer success team or whatever that looks like in the organization, marketing, sales, SDR, all of those teams should have a shared view of signals and data. And everyone should be contributing to that. And I think that's just going to make sure that everyone's on the same page, it's faster, and things are not missed. And I know that sounds obvious and simple, but I think a lot of organizations do not operate like that. Yeah, there's a lot of uh structural challenges within organizations. They get in their own way. um You know, this, especially on the siloed thing, it's like, it's not not always intentional, um but but but the but it's a consequence of uh the structure. And that just gets in the way of the success, both of those individual groups, departments, business units, as well as the experience that's being created. Right. Because you need. More than ever, you need that continuity of experience between the messages that marketing is delivering and then the experiences that buyers have as they reach out and make contact. Are they hearing the same language? Are they hearing the same narratives, I guess, or just articulation of the value prop or not, right? And also I just feel like our job is really to reduce friction for the sellers. And so if they feel like they're getting one set of signals, but then they have to ask like, Oh, what else is happening? Or it's not in one view. I just think it just, it just is slowing everything down. And I think in this world today, like speed, speed matters. Right. So I think again, just reducing friction for people and making it so what a simple example, going into Salesforce. em our rev ops team has done a great job and we have one signal dashboard that includes everything in one place. So this is exactly what I mean. So a sales rep and SDR customer success person, they can see everything on an account, the same view and the same set of signals and not having to go to different teams to see like, did somebody open that email? Did somebody attend that event? um Did we get this intense signal on a topic? It's all in one place. And I think that's where companies need to move to. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So speaking of speed, things are moving fast in the AI space as it relates to marketing. And in our case, we're hearing more and more from marketers talking about AI agents, autonomous workflows, and machine-led customer interactions, even agentic systems that ingest disparate sources and generate content, or at least content recommendations. but I'm wondering what does that mean for people, right? know, like what role does human judgment still play in a marketing strategy that is context driven? Yeah, I mean, I think that basically we all get to retire and be done. The agents are going to do it all. They're going to sell and they're going to buy, Yeah. So I mean, I might share a controversial, controversial view on this, but I feel like, you know, early days marketing automation, was in a way a similar thing. think AI is just to me, like a 10 X on this and where you need people, like it's, it's really very similar AI to me scales. helps decisioning. That's amazing. It makes us more efficient. That is great. I want it to help me do things that I don't want to do, but I still think you need people to think through. the strategy, they need to be able to think through the guardrails, right? What do we not want to have happen? AI is, it's actually like, it's only as good as your thought process. Like all your viewers and listeners know, like you will get a very different response based on a prompt you put in an LLM. It can vary a lot. the more specific, the more you can say, this is my role, this is what I want. You include other data. It can be amazing. Or if your question's very generic, not so good. And I would also say with the brand, that's a big area that we've been working on internally and making sure that we have all the right brand guidelines from our visual identity to our language that we use, our tone, um and making sure that we are always a good steward of that. So, I mean, I'm an optimist. think AI is amazing. I think it's improving so many things, but I think you still need people for the judgment and expertise. In other news, my husband is a programmer on the software side and he is using it tons, but he's like, I still see things that if I wasn't involved, the output would not be 100 % correct. He's like, it's faster, that's great. And we see the same things. I did an analysis on some of our pipeline data and if I didn't know certain things, I'd be like, it's perfect, it's true. But I caught a few things, I'm like, that's not exactly right. So I don't think people... I think it's an evolution and I think people need to learn the tools no different than, before marketing automation. just, that's a very simple example, but people didn't know how to do that. Some folks found it overwhelming. And then when everyone gets used to it, it's like, it's great. And I think it's just these tools are here to expedite things, make us more efficient so we can be thinking about the exciting stuff, right? The experiences, the strategy. And so hopefully that people feel energized by that. Yeah, I think so. I've always thought that a couple of things here in reaction, tools only as effective as the expertise of the person using it. we're early days. A lot of folks are early days. It's just a tool set that we're going to learn how to use. And at the same time, a lot of ways in which inputs, outputs work with AI that it makes you more what you are. So it can bring you from 0 to 50 % very quickly. or zero to 75%, but you're still gonna need a human who understands nuance and specificity and uh novel uh aspects of how a thing works in order to identify what's really gonna be effective in a given situation. there are those, know the most, from what I've seen, the most successful implementations are those where we are. using systems and workflows to expedite and to make more efficient and effective. But there are gut checks, human gut checks, checkpoints in which we can make sure that, still on track. Yep, we've got to guide you back onto. Yeah, yeah, that's important from an implementation standpoint. all seen it with content, right? Like if you just let that go, mean, you're just like, this is really wild. mean, especially in the early days, some of the content that we get produced. And I think people have identified that. like, okay, I still need to review this. Yes, it can help you create something much faster. Um, but I think, I think human beings, mean, I, I, again, I just feel like maybe because I'm old, I've gone through several of these like tech cycles and I feel like This is a big one. mean, without question, and it will change a lot, but people still need to be in the loop and be thinking through the overall strategy, how to differentiate, how you use these tools to have a competitive advantage, right? It's like if everyone starts doing the same, just make this an ebook over and over, that you're not gonna stand out. So you still need the creative aspect. Yeah, speed, efficiency, and scale at the expense of quality and impact doesn't help anybody, right? So what do you think most B2B marketers still misunderstand about your area and what Tealium does in terms of customer data platforms, and especially in the role that they play with AI-powered marketing? So, I mean, that's a big question. I think it's been a very, very fast moving space. And I think that the big thing, the big misconception that I see is that people think of a customer data platform as only a marketing tool. If I had to just say one misconception, that is a big one for me. And we actually are seeing a lot of teams outside of marketing using customer data platforms. Because if you think about it, In today's world, especially with AI, if we just go back to the basics, if you don't have a great data foundation, which includes real-time consented, filtered, enriched data, that's super critical, right? You really can't do great marketing. You don't get great product insights or what people's sentiment might be. There's a lot of things that you could be missing or IT, right? There's things that they need to understand as well too. And so I think for me, that's one of the biggest misconceptions. And I think that there isn't an organization out there that can't benefit from having a great data foundation. And I just, I see it over and over the companies that have that they're just moving so much faster because they understand their customer. They understand those real time signals and they, some of them can be good. Some of them can be bad, but as an organization, you need to be able to, it's almost like a plant, right? You're, does my plant need water? Am I overwatering? What's happening? Like you want to this alive and growing, right? And our customers are obviously more exciting than plants, but you need those signals. Absolutely. Well, and this is why in our best answer marketing framework, data informed is the first and most important pillar. uh Without it, we can't do anything else. We can't create that strategy. We can't build those trust signals or understand the channels or the type of content experiences. And we certainly won't know how to measure all that in an effective way. um So look into your depth of experience for some advice. um If you were advising a new CMO, someone that's new in their CMO role today, what are two or three foundational capabilities that you think they need to build in order to be competitive over the next couple of years? Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's a few things. I was thinking of a funny answer, but I'm like, get out. No, I think what I would say is make sure in any organization that you go into, there's a few things that I think about. Like, so say on your tech side of things, no tech will be amazing if you don't do the fundamentals right in the first place. And that's true whether you're using Salesforce, that's true whether you're any of the tools, Marketo, Telium, it doesn't matter. you have to get your data infrastructure right. mean, and again, that's really what Tilliam helps with. We plug in anything. We're very vendor agnostic, but just making sure that you have that foundation of, again, like that clean, consented, fresh data. And that's important with AI. That's important with personalization. That's important with anything that you're doing. So number one, which isn't always fun. And that's why people sometimes put it off. It's like, you need good plumbing in your house. You do. You can buy a beautiful, all the things in your kitchen, but if those fundamentals aren't there, it won't matter, right? Two is the team. And I think this is a big one today. I think the way teams are structured and look are different. Our team at Telium in marketing has become a lot more flat. And I look at everyone as being very much um kind of turbocharged by using AI and building different agents for tasks. but it's a different mentality. It's almost the same mentality as I think a classic marketing ops person. You have to be curious and you have to be somebody that's willing to get in. There's no rule today where you can't say, I'm not in that tool. historically I've seen that where folks are like, nope, I'm not in X, Y, Z. And I'm like, you're in there. So getting curious, creative, and just they love to learn because this landscape is going to continue to change. I really believe that. Three, would say get amazing alignment with your other revenue teams. And that's making sure that, again, you're sharing data and systems, but also that those are your internal customers. And when I see marketers, and I'm in a lot of CMO groups, and I see that sometimes there's challenges, it's because they're only thinking externally, which matters a lot. Super critical, we love our customers, but you have internal customers too. So make sure you're making... their lives better. that you're reducing friction. You're giving them what they need. Really important. And four, just speed. You've got to be somebody that is a fast mover. And it's in marketing. Sometimes I see that perfection can be a real enemy. it's, I tell my team, I'm like 80 % on most things is good. It really is. We really can. It's sometimes the speed of getting something out there is more important than making it perfect. You don't have a month. That's gone. So I think getting people that are okay with that, and it's hard for some people, it really is. But I think we're in an environment where if you don't act quickly, your competitor will and that's a problem. Yeah, yeah. uh You know, it's interesting that the third tip you made about internal customers are, you know, the internal customer. I was talking to Stephanie Lossi about this very same thing from Salesforce. She said the same thing about she accentuated the importance of making visible what marketing is doing uh and creating alignment and visibility within your internal customers, because obviously it's a team sport, right? uh It's something that impacts the whole organization. And so why not create investment in the success by creating visibility. it's time and it's telling the right story to that audience, right? Like your sales team, your CFO, like they need a different story, but you have to tell it in the right way or somebody else is going to tell it. And then you're not going to be in as good of a position. So I think, again, if people take away something that's really important, internal marketing. OK, well, fantastic. Great advice. So let's wrap things up. This has been great, by the way. We've gotten a master class on customer context. uh And I want to ask you about something that's kind of a tradition on the show, and that is asking a dream career question. If you could be doing anything else as a career option, what would it be? would that be? I have two answers to this. think the practical answer, I would, I love teaching. I'm so energized by it. There's nothing better than when somebody else is understanding a hard concept and like the light bulb goes off. Like that's just, that's really fun. But I think my fun answer, I'd love to be a singer. I would love to be a singer. It's, I think it's so fun. It's so energizing, but I think, yeah, there'd be a lot of fun. Well, that sounds great. know, uh the last interview I did was with Debbie Kestin from the ANA and in her LinkedIn bio, it says cabaret singer. I don't know. Maybe there's a pattern here with really competent marketers, successful marketers that there's a singing capability there, a hidden talent. uh Fantastic. This has been great, Heidi. um Where is the best place for people to connect with you? The best place, I have 1-800 number, no just kidding. ah LinkedIn is great. I'm pretty good at staying on top of that so people can reach out to me there or um Twitter as well. Okay, fantastic. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks, Lee, this has been great. I want to thank you for tuning in to the Beyond B2B Marketing Podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you can stay tuned for our next guest. And remember, there's no better time than now to become a Best Answer brand. Well, thank you. Of course that was so much fun! You're such a ghost! I don't know about that. You are, your questions are very like, I'm just like, we're just talking. it's, some, noticed like some people it's very like, like they, it's less conversational. And so you're, you just make it so much fun. That was great. Well, you're so kind to say that. really appreciate that because that is something that's important, right? It's more interesting to