AI, Trust, and the Future of B2B Marketing with Kelsey Voss

Hello and welcome to the Beyond B2B Marketing podcast. I'm your host, Lee Odin, CEO of Top Rank Marketing. And today our guest is someone with deep B2B marketing experience. Having served in senior marketing leader roles at multiple B2B companies over the years, and for the last four years, she's been at eMarketer as principal analyst where she leads B2B marketing analysis and research, as well as the eMarketer CMO series, Leading with Confidence.

course, I'm talking about Kelsey Voss. Welcome to the show, Kelsey. Thank you, it's great to be here. Great to have you.

after us kind of trading emails and things, it's really good to sort of at least virtually meet you. And I'm excited about our conversation today. So let's jump into it. m The first thing I wanna ask you, and this is sort of a tradition on our show, and that is to ask you about your marketing origin story.

How did you get into marketing in the first place? Well, it goes back to when I lived in New York. uh I was in New York theater starting in college and I was also a bartender. uh Neither of those professions uh generated much income.

So to earn money uh not found in either of those fields, I took a part-time position as a sales and marketing associate uh for a B2B trade publication. And I think I was there for about a year when one day the circulation manager of the magazine turned in his chair, looked at me and said, Kelsey, you could be really good at this. Do you want my job? And I think it was because he was retiring, but he was in fact leaving the company.

And I thought about it. was like, I think I can, I've watched him for a year. It doesn't seem, you know, I could do this. So.

Half flattered, half stunned. I was like, I was like, this is great. Now I get health insurance. I started my marketing career in B2B magazine publishing, trade publishing, as a circulation manager, which as I was thinking about this is kind of the opposite of getting discovered.

I kind of reversed it there. uh So the core of the job was to get qualified recipients to subscribe and renew their subscription. But it also meant connecting with subscribers around the world and making sure they were getting value from the publication. And these connections were really interesting and they made me feel like I was actually making a difference in their roles and for the magazine.

Um, and I also really appreciated the rigor of the BPA audit process. Um, you had to have and prove it every six months, complete, accurate, qualified audience data that was, it was required and, and I always passed the audits 100%. And that reinforced for me how, of course, no less. Um, it really, yeah, it reinforced.

how important data quality is and how that data quality was linked to the credibility of the publication. And uh I was very proud of the work I did there. And then uh I moved on from there to Ziff Davis and uh moved more into demand gen and audience marketing roles and uh leadership of the marketing teams that uh I, it was still trade publishing, but I was in charge of e-week baseline CIO insight. And that really introduced me more to the dynamic of, you know, sort of a bigger scope of demand, Jen, lead Jen, audience marketing, a world that was.

a little more all encompassing marketing wise than I had as a circulation manager. And then um from there, I moved west, um ended up in Seattle and I managed teams at, uh as you mentioned, several B2B companies, including startups where I built teams from the ground up, where we did rebrands. So I had a lot of different experience with all different types of small companies, uh small business to enterprise. And then uh I was a VP of marketing at airspace when eMarketer approached me and I did not immediately see myself in this role.

So before committing, I talked with an analyst that I worked with for many years and trusted to tell me the truth because I knew he would. Was this for me? And he said, yes, he could see this as a really good fit. And he was right.

The role is about pulling together, synthesizing, verified data from multiple trustworthy sources, gathering different takes on trends from interviews with experts and taking all that and generating my own perspective on a particular topic. uh I'd already been a writer and uh in my marketing roles and I was a people manager for many years and I loved inspiring, uh you know, particularly the younger marketers and I loved leading teams and I enjoyed working with leadership and translating what the company goals meant for my teams and creating strategies on how we could contribute to the company and make an impact.

So this evolution of my career was really a natural fit. So rather than executing programs myself, I now use research and interviews to help fellow B2B marketers make better decisions. That's great. That's a great context too, because I mean, and looking at your, even your LinkedIn, it's just the depth of experience.

have 360 degrees of responsibility around marketing at different organizations is a fantastic backdrop upon which to do the kind of analysis work you're doing now. And I'm kind of wondering with that breadth and depth of experience, like are there... certain learnings or things about that practical experience that have influenced the lens through what you're doing, the work you're doing today. Yes, uh absolutely.

It really influences everything that I do. And I look at trends through a practical lens because I myself have been accountable for making marketing work, uh not just marketing, but making it work for sales, for the pipeline and for revenue. I really was uh focused pretty much on making sure that our contribution made uh a real impact to a company that I was working for. And I know how marketers think, and I know the pressures that they're under.

And when I look at a new technology um or a shift in, uh sorry, if I look at a new technology or a shift in buyer behavior, I am asking, what do marketers need to understand right now? What do they need to focus on? And how a new approach actually can hold up and be successful in execution. And I tend to look at things through three lenses.

What's actually changing? What successful marketers are doing in practice? But also where leadership or marketers maybe overreacting. My background makes me skeptical, very skeptical of hype.

I've been, vendors have come to me to try to sell me so many things and I'm, I have to see it, I have to see somehow that it's going to be uh useful. And so a lot of things are compelling in theory or when a salesperson says it, uh the real question is, Will it work when teams have to um integrate it, use it, and have the resources for it? Do they have the resources for it? And that's something that can be forgotten um easily is are there people to actually take this on as well as budget?

And all that to say, my favorite type of report that I do is called, we call it How to Respond. report. And I think these are the most useful for practitioners to know what to do next. It's not just talking about trends.

I'm not just talking about a forecast and the numbers. I'm actually saying here's what's happening. Here are the challenges. Here's what successful CEOs or marketers are doing.

And here's my recommendations on what you can do. Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of hunger for the signal out of all the hype and the noise, you know, and is there anything more hype than AI right now, right? Which of course is a place where you've spent some time. um And I wanted to ask you about that because you have a report on, you know, the impact of AI accelerating buying cycles.

And, you know, you shared there that I think it's 43 % of B2B buyers are using AI tools during the consideration phase. And that's great to know. mean, there's a lot of hype, but there's some reality too, right? And I know our own research has found an increase of a similar nature around discovery and consumption of thought leadership content through AI tools.

And I think it's pretty easy to agree that this is... focused on the impact of AI in terms of how information is discovered and consumed and all that is that's a trend that's going to continue to evolve. But my question is how exactly do you see AI changing this speed of buying cycle and the ways that buyers are, what we call their information journey, how are they how it's going to influence how buyers are discovering and consuming and acting on information. Yeah.

And since I wrote that report, um there's been maybe a tad of confusion when I say AI speeding things up. What I really mean, I mean, it can, but it's not necessarily accelerating the buying cycle. It's compressing the window that brands have to influence that cycle. So it seems like it's accelerating because there's less time.

for marketers and a vendor to prove their worth, to prove their value. Because buyers are doing so much more of the evaluation and consideration on their own. And so by the time a vendor and sales gets involved, their shortlist is already formed there, what they think is already there. They just want validation and move on.

And obviously ask certain questions. em For example, a buyer who's looking at different marketing automation platforms um may ask Claude or ChatGPT to compare vendors, get pricing, info on integration, um get use cases summarized, and get that instantly. if, meanwhile, if your brand's value prop isn't clear within that environment, You'll be filtered out before you even know you were considered or if you were considered at all. So you're no longer competing for ranks and clicks.

You're competing to be quickly interpreted correctly. And brands now have to think about how they show up clearly, incredibly in these AI powered platforms uh that buyers are using to do the research for them. Yeah, without a doubt it's the, the environment, the discovery environment is fragmented and more diverse. so that means marketers or brands need to be more diverse and understanding of where these surfaces are causing, um, know, opportunities for interaction or influence, right?

Like you say, um, and of course we have a whole, you know, I'll ask you about it, but, the way we describe. that brand experience of being there when in wherever that the buyer is looking is called be it best answer, right? You know, how can you be the best answer? And it's not being the number one product or service in your category.

It's about being the best at delivering useful information and the place and time where it's needed. um on the other side of the coin with AI, if I can oversimplify, um is something you've written about called that you described as AI fatigue and that there's this sort of paradox where AI makes discovery more efficient or as you say, it closes the window which brands have an opportunity to influence. um But when AI content is identified as AI content, I'm sure you and I have both had this similar experience as well as people listening or watching.

When you see something where there's a tell, that this is AI generated, you know, there's a bit of skepticism and it impacts whether, you know, there's trust present or not. And then I'm just kind of wondering what your data, data that you've uh been a part of or interacted with tells us about how buyers are interacting and reacting to what some describe as a flood of AI generated content. Yes, of AI slop. uh Yes, AI is definitely, you are absolutely right.

AI is making it much easier to produce content, to scale that, but is to your point, more difficult to trust. so buyers are getting this faster access to more information, but they are also definitely more sensitive to anything that feels generic, that feels repetitive. So the fatigue isn't about AI per se. I would say it's about low value output.

So buyers aren't necessarily rejecting AI. They are going directly to AI to look for things. They're rejecting content that feels like no one's actually thought about it. that it's just this generic information they could find anywhere.

And so that's why credibility and clarity and a real point of view are carrying more weight and they can build uh more trust with what they're finding through that. Yeah, it's kind of like, know, again, I'm sure people watching listening can relate to this idea of looking in your inbox and trying to decide, well, which one am I going to open? Because I've got, I hate to admit, I've got 8,000 messages in my inbox or something like that. But, or even looking in a social feed like LinkedIn, it's like, which one of these things am I going to spend my, you know, few minutes of available time on?

Well, one of the decision factors is of course, well, do I know what the author is? Do I knew the source? Do I trust the source or not? Right.

Is often a thing. So exactly what you're talking about. and if you've, if you've not invested in the, just, uh, you know, credibility, mental availability and all those sorts of things, it's like, that's what opens the door. There's more than enough content to choose from.

I mean, more than we could consume in our lifetime. As Mark Schaefer is described with this concept of content shock years ago. And now it's even more so. And that investment in credibility and trust, or brand, or, and brand is, uh, something that manifests not just in terms of visibility, but obviously decision confidence, you know, when the time comes, to make a choice.

You know, at, in our own practices, a B2B marketing agency, we, we talk a lot about, um, something that we call a crisis of credibility, uh, along these lines. know, people. are overwhelmed with information as I've been talking about, but they're also skeptical, skeptical about what they're, what they're finding. And, you know, what's the point of standing out if people don't trust what they find.

Right. So, um, you had produced a 2026 trends report that talks about a couple of things, visibility, credibility, data governance, and how those things can help define success for B2B marketers. I'm just wondering if visibility alone isn't enough. uh How would you say the most successful B2B marketing leaders that you talk to um are creating credibility for their brands and are they doing it at scale?

Yeah. Well, back to your first point about emails. I myself, because in my role, in my title, I have marketing. I have B2B marketing in my title.

I get a ridiculous amount of sales messages for how to improve marketing at eMarketer. And, and a lot of times they're from quote unquote sales reps that I know they're from, you know, they're from a drip campaign or they're from something where there's really no person behind it. So I find that very amusing because again, I was already skeptical of this type of email and now even more so with AI, I'm getting so much more of it. um And sometimes I have found, you know, that the person behind that, that the signature doesn't exist at all, is not on LinkedIn, is not a real person.

So it's just kind of amusing how that level of, I would say, not distrust, but sort of misleading me and sort of, trying, but also just completely off the mark has just. a lot. Yeah. Lack of relevance and they're doing spray and pray.

Exactly. And it really doesn't work with me. But yes, to your question, I do interview so many CMOs and the CMOs that are really creating this credibility um are really focused on consistency of their messaging. And those connections along the buyer journey.

And I'll explain. The credibility breaks when marketing messaging does not match what buyers actually experience or find before they get to that marketing messaging. A lot of times, marketing oh will set up initial expectations about a product or service. And if those expectations don't hold up and stay consistent throughout their journey.

That trust erodes before the relationship really can get, you know, can be solidified and really start. And the other piece that I was saying about connections is really about um alignment and that successful CMOs make sure that what shows up in marketing content aligns with what product is saying, what sales is saying, and then what the customer experience is like. So the most credible CMOs aren't the loudest. They are the ones who are the strongest integrators across buyer touch points.

So credibility doesn't get lost in a marketing campaign. Necessarily, it falters at the handoff points. Yeah, that continuity, just the notion of continuity, as you say, and experience, our partners in this uh sort of attempt to be relevant and build a relationship with this prospective buyer. And this idea of continuity also, I think, is something that is increasingly important for how, and maybe I'll ask about this right away, about LLM visibility, meaning the consensus, if you will, that entities that are identified are talking about your brand in a particular way.

So it could be humans, uh literally talking. Like if you go to a party and... You know, the host introduces you, you've got instant credibility, but then if several other people say, yeah, this person's pretty smart or whatever, then it's becomes true. And they haven't even talked to you yet, you know, and that's an oversimplified sort of example, maybe of how LL, in part, how LLMs and search engines identify who the best choice is, um, to surface as an answer.

But yeah, it's, kind of interesting the mimicry, uh, at some level between technology and how humans, um, are validating, identifying and validating things to believe in, things to trust and rely upon. um So I wanted to ask you about influence because that's, think how we connected maybe is where you had graciously uh included some of our research with Ascend2, I believe in a report about, and we published for, B2B influencer marketing reports. And in fact, we're just about to start data collection on our fifth in short order.

But anyway, I want to ask you about influence because it's something that you've covered. And especially as it relates to building trust. And one of the reports that you've done talks about how CMOs are using influencer marketing to build trust. as a practice, You know, we've seen it accelerate tremendously.

And we started doing influencer marketing for B2B brands back in 2012, 2013. So it's, it's been a while, but the acceleration in the last two years has been incredible. And I'm wondering from your experience and the data that you've either generated or interacted with, what, is it that stands out to you when it comes to influence and how B2B brands can best capitalize on it? as part of their marketing mix.

I think what definitely stands out, and you touched on this, is your research with Ascend2 and the data from that particular survey saying that 81 % of B2B marketers now have dedicated influencer budgets and over half say those budgets are growing. So that really tells you that this channel, this way of of integrating and engaging with buyers has become a core part of marketing. you know, we've been saying this, but a big part of what drives that is trust. And decision makers trust experts more than they trust brand messaging.

And influencer content often performs really well because it brings that outside credibility. you know, from people, they trust these people already, regardless of the brand product offering. Um, so it brings that outside credibility into the conversation, um, you know, and into the decision-making process. I would say where it's still maturing is in the measurement and many B2B teams still struggle to connect influencer activity.

to leads to revenue. But the bigger shift is that influencer marketing is no longer being treated as a nice to have. It's not just an awareness tactic. It's increasingly being used as a structured way to build confidence in a brand.

And as long as influencers can be seen as a part of performance marketing and not just brand awareness. That's a big step in validating, um which also is more successful, long-term relationships with these influencers, building those partners. if influencer marketing, in a nutshell, ah is not just seen as a nice to have, is not just seen as something for brand awareness, if it's considered part of what marketers do, what many call performance marketing, ah I think that's a really big step.

in validating this type of work and helping with the measurement at the other end of it. Yeah, that's, you know, I think there's an aspect of maturity and, know, in marketing, we love our maturity models. And I think, you know, there's one that exists in the realm of B2B influence as well. And those who are more mature are thinking about influence and influencer creator activations across the entire customer life cycle.

you know, the metaphor I would use is. People who are familiar with SEO, old school SEO at least, would think about a document and like, what's this document? What is the one key word that I really want this document to surface as to my audience? And so they would optimize according to that idea.

What is the most relevant thing? You know, being relevant in that way, you know, with influences, sort of a similar thing in that, know, there's a certain type of influencer, a certain type of activation that makes sense according to stage of the buyer journey. So again, to oversimplify a brand, we call them brand individuals. Those famous pro influencers might be good for top of funnel type of activations or a super user or practitioner might be good for middle funnel engagement.

um And then, you know, customer stories or, you know, customer. SMEs could be good for the decision-making type of content. But you're bringing a level of expertise. The point is that we're not optimizing for visibility.

We're optimizing for trust by making our content accountable where it makes sense to include either internal or external voices. uh And there's a lot of different arguments, I guess. It's adding context. It's adding validation to ideas.

It's adding credibility. uh And with pro influencers at least that have communities, it's adding distribution also. If they joined with you to make something, usually they're proud of that effort and are inspired to help you make it successful by promoting it to their audiences, right? And that can work across the entire customer journey.

uh So we have a framework. uh as I mentioned, at Best Answer Marketing that we use as a sort of system that people can tap into to take advantage of this sort of the new age um of discovery and consumption and decision. And one of the pillars in that framework is something we call the trust system. this architecting trust um is something that does really rely heavily on authenticity and human expertise.

uh And that includes engaging with influencers or, you know, earned media, conducting original research and other forms of, you know, validation and proof. So while that's happening and some companies are doing that, or a lot of companies are doing that, uh AI is in everybody's toolbox right now. And, you know, it's kind of like, how do you differentiate when everyone has the same type of, of, of tools available to them? So I'm wondering about your advice for B2B marketers that are trying to balance.

you know, the efficiency gains, let's say, uh of AI tools and the need for the kind of authenticity and human expertise that's required to really genuinely build trust. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It's a balance and it's not an either or. And the best teams that I see are really strategically deciding where AI is doing the work and where human expertise belongs in that process.

and as we know, AI can handle... the scale, it can handle the speed, it can do the drafting, the analysis, the workflow efficiency, know, much better, all that good stuff. But humans still own judgment and positioning and anything that affects trust. And what I hear constantly um and consistently is that human checkpoint is non-negotiable.

Like quote, non-negotiable. uh AI can accelerate and refine and build the process, but someone still has to decide if that content being put out there actually says something authentic, as you say, and reflects the brand. So with AI. I would say the uniqueness here is this is where creativity becomes even more important.

As AI standardizes output, that differentiation comes from the creativity, but also fresh ideas and innovative perspectives, the things that AI cannot reliably replicate because what's new and fresh and from the human perspective may be something that is completely so new that no AI, know, LLM would have that. So that's, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, right on, right on.

And, you know, when you think about something that a system that's based on predicting things based on what has come from in the past, um it's not reasonable to expect that that's going to generate novel ideas or be attuned to the notion of taste or style or, you know, the illogical ways in which human brains work. because of our unique experiences and all that, all that adds up to the sort of originality that truly does differentiate that you're talking about, I think. And I believe, and I'm living personally in my experience of using AI as a marketer, it's like, yeah, it's a balance, you know?

And the things that perform, the things that are not mechanical, but meaningful are the things that accentuate that unique, authentic, human, creative. thread, you know, uh and maybe AI played roles operationally and bringing that to market and distribution and repurposing or something like that. But those core ideas that really resonate are stemming from that original creativity that an imagination and curiosity and all those sorts of things that make us human. It seems like.

So I wanted to revisit this, this idea of search and what's happening there. Cause you've done research. uh in the, in the space. and, you know, I think there was a report you did that, kind of highlights the changes in reflected by, you know, zero click, right?

AI overviews and, and, using Chetchup, BT or Gemini uh perplexity as a, as a sort of way to discover information and do research and that sort of thing. And because of the fragmentation of this sort of environment that kind of talked about before, which we call multi-channel discovery, um, I'm just wondering what do you, in your experience or from your advice, from the data, know, all the things, you know, Kelsey, GPT, what does a brand need to do to make sure, you know, what are the fundamental things they need to do to make sure that they are recognized in this AI discovery environment?

I feel like I should frame my answer as chat. GPT would, you know, with the bullets and everything. Um, okay. Well, I mean, yes, there's a few things that stand out.

Um, first is brand differentiation. Um, that has to be clear and immediately apparent. So if a buyer or chat GPT cannot quickly understand what you do, uh who you are, what your product is for, why it matters, you're going to be really easy to skip over. um Secondly, the fundamentals, and this is coming out more and more, really still matter, right?

So, GEO um builds on great SEO tactics. It does not replace it. So, structure and clear answers and and credible authorship make content easier for systems to extract data and information and reuse that. And it's no longer, as you know, about ranking first, it's about being more and or the most usable for a system to say, okay, this is something worth pulling and putting in the output.

And then third is consistency. And so if what AI surfaces doesn't match what buyers find on your site or hear from sales, as we were saying, it creates that friction at exactly the wrong moments. So, so that's what brands need to do. They need to think about when they're thinking about, we the best answer?

Are you differentiated? Do you stand out? What is your. Like I know this is said all the time, but what is your value prop?

Like really, like what makes you different than any other software tool out there that does exactly the same thing? You know, not forgetting the fundamentals. Don't forget your, you know, your expertise on SEO and, and, know, and Google search still matters. Like it's not, you know, it's completely gone.

And then being consistent about that and, just making sure that. Everything that you want to surface up is consistent, that makes sense, um that doesn't confuse the buyer, that doesn't say two different things or three different things. um Even if you're not getting that link back to the site, your buyer is getting hopefully the most accurate and uh unique information about your company, which will help them move forward. Great, that's great advice.

um So this might be a tricky question, but if you have an answer, that's great. If you don't, it's okay. And have you seen examples of any companies that, I mean, have you talked to any CMOs, have you talked to any companies that seem to be making progress in this space? uh Yeah, I mean, I think the CMOs that I talked to really are paying attention to those three things that I just mentioned.

They really are like, my gosh, don't forget about SEO. And you do hear this now from experts in the field. You can't forget about that. But also things are changing daily.

Everything is like whatever happened yesterday, it's now, you know, it seems completely different today. So um staying on top of what you can stay on top of important. But again, that reinforces why you shouldn't give up the fundamentals. You shouldn't just abandon what you know.

Absolutely. this is why the system that I'm talking about that we use is it starts with data. And so you think about a model where it's very customer centric. And one of the most important inputs is around that information journey of your audience, your buyer.

So how are they discovering information and where are they discovering information? What are their preferences for content consumption? You know, formats, channels, that sort of thing. And then what are the triggers that motivate action?

With a model like that, you're always paying attention to the data that's relevant right now. You know what I mean? And so you're less likely to be caught up in what's not working because you're emphasizing what is working and you're keeping your fingers on the pulse of the inputs that help inform that. It's not just data, it's actually customer interviews and qualitative inputs as well.

And even reconciling with market research, which is one of the reasons why we do research reports on influencer marketing is so that we have benchmark information to use to inform actual points of comparison for campaigns, for example. And then one of the other aspects on the... That's sort of on the front end, the data on the front end, the data on the back end is unified analytics. So being able to bring disparate data sources into a data warehouse allows for sort of sleuthing out those correlations you're looking for to understand, all right, how much did the influencers we're working with affect pipeline?

How much did influencers plus AI search visibility and standard SEO, how much? Well, no. because we're bringing those inputs into a centralized location that allows us to instrument and then dashboard uh progress towards that sort of thing. Speaking about data, ah you said, or you listed, I should say, data governance as a defining factor for 2026 in one of your reports.

And ah I'm just wondering why, what argument can you make or to reinforce? I, know, intellectually, I think we all understand the importance of data, but now more than ever, I think, and I'd love for you to explain that. Like, why is data as a foundation so much more important now, ah not just for things like targeting, but actually building trust or any aspect of marketing today. Yeah, well, to your earlier point back to SEO, I did just come across, or it was more recent than the other influencer report, but Search Engine Journal had a survey and 58 % of SEO professionals say they plan to prioritize human authored content with AI support and nearly half said they're increasing investment in EEAT that expertise, experience, authority, and trust.

So in practice, it's a shift away from just pages with keywords to building content that answer buyer questions clearly in credit. So, you you're absolutely right. So, you know, in that zero click environment, traffic's only part of the story. uh That visibility and AI and, you know, and lead quality will tell you about if your brand is actually showing up during consideration.

And yes, about data governance, um certainly a defining factor for 2026. Now, data has always been important. I don't think there's any market out there that's ever said data doesn't matter. wait, yes, it does.

You know, so it does, um you know, it's not, you know, fun to, you know, maybe for some people, but um yeah, it's always been true, but data governance in, in with AI, you know, it just amplifies how important that is because in the past, bad data, incorrect data, missing data might show up mainly in, you know, mistargeting kind of the emails I get that are not quite right at all. In message reporting, which has always been a thing, you know, marketers and sales arguing over metrics that matter um or, you know, inconsistent campaigns will happen.

But now it shows up much more directly. to the buyer and their experience. And AI is using the data you have to generate content, to shape messaging and inform decisions many times in real time. So if the inputs are off, the output now many times at scale isn't just inefficient, it's visibly wrong.

It's visibly inconsistent and it's really hard to trust. So generally, not completely, data governance has shifted from kind of a back end problem and issue to a front end and front of buyers issue. And buyers are really sensitive now to these disconnected experiences. So if that content feels off, doesn't line up, trust drops.

So the brands that get this right are the ones where they've really paid attention to their data. They've really paid attention to the interconnections of them within their company, within their systems, but also with what buyers see, what they're told, what they experience. If that's not the case, if that foundation isn't there, oh that weak foundation is a glaring trust problem. um And I can't emphasize that enough.

It's just that it's a deal breaker. Yeah, it is. is. You know, I was thinking about that idea of the threshold for breaking trust and what experience caused that.

You know, I think the bar is raising because the ease in which personalization can happen now is creating higher, I think, or will create higher expectations amongst audiences. It's like, used to be a little bit of personalization would kind of get your attention. Now everything is personalized, you know, m in a creepy way sometimes. so it's like, everybody, you know, again, how do you differentiate when everyone has the same tools, how do you differentiate?

And so I think you're not only on the creative side, on the original humanity side of things, but also good data governance is going to help you ensure that trust as well. So I appreciate that. So one of the, one of the things that you work on is that uh leading with confidence CMO series. And I'm wondering broadly, what, you know, through those conversations that you have, through that exercise and that effort of driving those conversations, what are some sort of like foundational go forward recommendations?

how do you think marketing leaders should be thinking or rethinking how they're looking at marketing? uh through the rest of this year into next year. Sometimes I just want to tell people they should just, know, CMOs and other marketers based on what, you know, I hear the successful CMOs saying is just have a little more fun. being so sad.

No, but really um more solidly than that, um the CMOs that are really, I think, thinking about this in the right way, they, know they need to move quickly. They know they need to adapt in real time. They know they need to be agile without losing that human connection to the customer. They never, ever forget the customer or the buyer in this whole thing.

So the risk, especially with AI, is optimizing content, optimizing marketing. uh for that AI output, um so that is, that risk, if they're optimizing for, let me rephrase it. The risk, especially with AI, is that if they just optimize for output, they're missing probably the piece on relevance, and that will erode the trust. um And the CMOs gaining ground are using AI strategically with an eye for these connections.

So for instance, they can use AI to stay closer to what buyers and customers are actually saying. They can use AI to pull insights from conversations and... turn those insights into content, um in the customer's own language, all sorts of great things with AI. But the teams that maybe aren't doing so well with this may have all that, but they are probably chasing efficiency um with AI at the expense of that customer relationship, if that makes sense.

Yeah. of sense. It does. And that's the argument for balance, right?

There's a means to an end and understanding, well, AI's not, efficiency isn't the end. It's the means to the end. And ultimately, if you're not creating experiences that drive trust and drive consideration, drive revenue, what's What's the point, right? That's why visibility alone, it's just not enough.

We've got to build something more. Right. And do it quickly. Yeah, exactly.

So let's kind of wind things up with a fun question. And by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with your recommendation that more CMOs need to have more fun. I mean, I know they have fun, but my goodness, some of the most memorable B2B marketing has emotion connected to it. So that fun should manifest in the marketing and messaging that they're putting out into the world, at least sometimes, right?

Exactly. I just feel like the CMOs that are doing really well are the ones that are really happy to talk about what they're doing. They're really excited. They love to experiment where they can.

They listen to leadership, but they, you know, they manage it so they can still do their thing, you know, so they don't feel the pressure and the tenseness of all this, you know, so. Yeah. Well, what about so, so in your career, I mean, you have a long career in marketing, but if you could be working in any other field, any other role besides what you do today, what would it be? I most likely would go back to the arts.

I love theater. I loved working in theater in New York on Broadway. I met amazing people. I met Julie Andrews.

So, you know, I just, there's, and there's just something electric about live performances in front of a live audience, right? And I think that's... What we've been talking about today is, I like helping marketers establish and maintain real relationships with their audience, listening to their feedback, their concerns, and as in a live performance, delighting them with something that can make their lives a little better or little easier and can make their time there or in marketing, their journey and experience enjoyable.

and worthwhile. But yes, I think I would go back to probably a little less security and go back to the arts. Well, if there's one thing, it's no AI is going to replace. If you did decide to work in theater, is it going to be replaced?

I assume so. uh Unless it's a production featuring robots, I suppose. uh AI robots, yeah. So this has been great, Kelsey.

I really appreciate you spending the time. You shared some wonderful insights. um Where is the best place for people to connect with you? I think any B2B person will tell you it's LinkedIn.

uh LinkedIn is the best place to connect with me, to follow what I do. That's where I share my thinking, my research, with my reports around B2B marketing and CMO leadership. Fantastic, and I have to agree. If you're in business, LinkedIn is the place to be for sure.

Well, fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. I very enjoyed our conversation.

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