Belkins’ Founders Open Up: Confronting Their Mistakes, Wins, and Regrets | Belkins Podcast Episode #21

Vlad: Vlad and Michael are business partners. They talk about decisions, conflict and trust. They question the partnership itself. So who are they to each other? Just partners or something more? Watch and listen in this episode.

Michael: Do you consider this year to be win or lose?

Vlad: 20, 25.

Michael: Yes, lose. So hold on. So I'm trying to be a politician here. The glass is half empty, basically, that's what you're saying.

Vlad: But some people would say that what, uh, we've built and how we've built, just a lot of luck because we built with money from our own pocket. We reinvested everything we've got. Some people that's really bright.

Michael: What's the most prominent hire in Balkans? All time.

Vlad: Actually you know that they would say that.

Michael: So we have, uh, quite challenging targets for the next year that I took ownership of. Do you think I can do it? Do you genuinely think I can meet those targets? I'm always kind of frustrated and pissed off from the fact that we never have budgets. Can you share a moment when, uh, you've been the most frustrated with me in our partnership?

Vlad: I definitely got a few of those moments

Michael: a lot. Uh, get me, get me, get me my list.

Vlad: Yeah, one second.

Michael: I have Michael's list. Well, that's the part of the family counseling that I mentioned, by the way, guys. All right, if you were to choose to build only one of them between Balkans and Folderly, only the one company you build and run.

Vlad: Someone hit me today.

Michael: Which company would it be? You can only choose either Balin or folder.

Vlad: There's no question. And there is maybe a third R. No, I will choose because it's just creating more opportunities. They will hate me. I know that they will.

Michael: It's all recorded. So do you think you are a great CEO? Uh, today I have a special guest. Uh, my partner Vlad, um, joins me for this kind of special conversation. So for those who never heard of me or Vlad here. We co founded Belkins and grew it to be one of the best, um, appointment setting and lead generation agencies, um, in the world. We also co founded lots of other businesses. Among the ones that kind of, ah, popular in this category is the company Folderly. It's an email solution platform. We've made, um, multiple investments together. Not all of them were successful, but yeah, it's a special conversation, uh, for me because, um, me and Vlad, we've been partners for 10 years already and although we probably know a lot about each other, um, there are some questions or some conversations that we haven't had. So today we've decided to treat everyone and Have a conversation that we've never had before. So we've, uh, decided. And I asked Vlad to, uh, think of the questions that he haven't had an opportunity to ask me personally. And I also thought of the questions that, uh, you know, within the 10 years of working together, I didn't ask. And today that's time for us to ask each other questions.

Vlad: Yeah. Should be a lot of fun.

Michael: Thanks for taking the time.

Vlad: Yeah, thank you, Michael, for inviting me.

Michael: All right.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: So let's roll.

Vlad: Yeah, let's roll. Do you want me to start first?

Michael: You know what? No. You're the guest of the show, so let me. Let me fire the first question. But I honestly, I prepared a lot of tough questions. There will be a lot of, um, I think a lot of drama, a lot of, um, couple counseling here. All right, so, um. Yeah. Um, so I'll start with. So, as in, you know, as I mentioned, like, I have several categories. I have. I start with the easy questions, then we move to the moderate questions, and then I'll. I'll hit you with some difficult ones. All right, when we already warmed up, and, um, we're gonna ask, um, our sound guy to bring us some tissues for. For our tears, if we need to. Tears. It's also okay to hug as well at some point in this, so we can, uh, if we need to cut it out. So. Yeah.

Vlad: Right.

Michael: So.

Vlad: Okay.

Michael: All right, so question number one. Something, um, easy to begin with. We've been doing this for, like, 10 years, and obviously we went through lots, um, of different motions, events, uh, wins, tragedies. Um, what's your personal highlight of the last nine years of Belkins?

Vlad: All right, so I think the highlight for 10 years, that we're still going on, that we're still, uh, doing great job, that we outnumbered all of those competitors in the market within sales and marketing, which is really rough, tough space to be in. And, uh, it just really difficult to be number one in something that difficult or that competitive. And imagine competing with hundreds of thousands of different companies and agencies, and we outbid them in being number one in the lead generation, which is ridiculous because some of those people have been in the businesses for 30 years. 40 years. 20 years. And we're doing this, uh, in our early 20s and now in our 30s for 10 years already in being number one. So I think that's worth. To highlight that we just doing great job, and maybe there's a lot of luck involved, I don't know. But definitely, uh, this is the main thing that I wanted to Highlight, because a lot of people doing a lot of hard work, but not a lot of people succeed in this.

Michael: Do you think that this success is something we can hold, uh, on to for the entire, uh, for the entirety of the company or there will be a company like an underdog that will uh, kind of get behind us and try to eat our asses at some point?

Vlad: Yeah, there's always be someone, uh, from underdogs that kind of hunting us down. And again, this kind of enormous market, enormous market, uh, size that people competing for. And uh, again there's another kind of Vlad and Michael in their early 20s, starting right now somewhere, which is potentially can be a really great company. So I wish those guys really good luck then, because that would be the rough journey.

Michael: Yeah. Folks, if you're enjoying the interview so far, I would appreciate if you spend a second, like comment or subscribe to Belkin's podcast on the platform where you're watching this. I'm trying to get my show listed in the best podcast and a couple of seconds of your time would really help me a lot to do that. Thank you so much. And let's get back to the interview. If you were to do Balkans again, um, what one mistake you would want to avoid? Just one. Um, I know it's a tough one because we made so many mistakes, but just really the big one that you feel like, uh, you won't do.

Vlad: I usually address this as we are getting our street mba. Like we uh, are not the guys who went um, to Garbard, but we've managed to build successful business which is controversial for some people because they went uh, straightforward in the first place to get degree in business and get to building all the businesses. But uh, um, we've got our, our MBA with all the mistakes that we did and overcome those. So I think the how fast we are making any decisions, we can always be faster. Uh, but we are so naive and just uh, trying to be a good persons all the time because we just care about everyone, about people, about company, about products, about. I know everything, each and every partner and each and every person, each and every client. But I think that we just should be more tough and uh, less naive obviously, and make uh, all those decisions faster. Even though if that would be hard decisions to make. And this is what our entire job

Michael: about, obviously, again, um, based on your words, being naive with business, uh, is definitely an area of improvement. And you say that we have that trait, that we are a bit naive. Can you give an example of, you know, how that naivety could um, could um, impact negatively a business Just for people to give a perspective of like um, you know, when they think about naivety. What, what do we actually we mean by that?

Vlad: Like the first example that it comes to my mind that um, when someone doing really like bad or not quality work and like for example deliver it to you and uh, you kind of trying to improve this person kind of perception result his skills and try to put a lot of your energy, a lot of your effort this person to kind of. You want him to succeed even more than he is or she is. It rarely pays off for the founder, for the CEO, for any kind of person who managing his own people. But sometimes it's not worth it because sometimes people just don't care about this. I think the naivety here is about putting a lot of trust in your energy and even doing a lot of work for those people instead of them, no matter what they do to show them how it should be done. But those people sometimes never care about this because again they just don't care. So this is just that kind of people and that's your job as a kind of person, um, or leader to find those cases I would say and decide um, fast like. Yeah, don't waste your time.

Michael: Yeah. So again what you're saying is that uh, you know, we always sort of like think about people or we very often look at the world different from the people expecting them to face things through. Like we see and they see the world for different light which sometimes just um, doesn't follow the, you know, what we care about um, example of naivety from, from my side is more like, um, you know, sometimes we do a lot of like half measures in a way.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: So you know, instead of making a rough decision, especially in the tough times when your business model doesn't work, where clients are turning someone in is not happy, the whole teams are not performing. You know, we're trying to make a decision um, with like, um, you know, like in, in the Witcher Sapkowski, the lesser evil. Right. Like that. Uh, but instead of just trying to make what the best decision for the business could be, even if it means that it's going to be a rough ride. Right. And, and, and then you make uh, a few of those half decisions which will still lead you to a very decision that needs to be kind of, you know, letting go a lot of people in the company, uh, you know, cutting on the salaries, on the benefits and some other things or you know, um, yeah. Or letting some customers go and so on so far so yeah, so things like that over, you know, with experience, then obviously we lose some of that naivety in a little bit. But uh, I think it's a part of the character as well. So whatever you do, you still have that in you. Right? So.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: Well, we started. Right. So these are some of the first questions to warm up. Okay, so shoot me a few.

Vlad: Yeah, I actually have one to follow up on. The last thing that you just said that would be from the section human cast. What version of yourself did you have to let go to become who you are right now? And do you miss this person?

Michael: And do you.

Vlad: What do you miss?

Michael: Do you miss the person? Wow. Um. Huh huh. That's a tough one.

Vlad: Thank you.

Michael: Thank you.

Vlad: That's just the word. Um, when we started Belkins and started all of our companies that we have, I think we just not just wanted to say again that we were naive, uh, uh, because that's obvious. But there was a lot of kind of excitement and a lot of high hype, high energy at the beginning. And down the road, after 10 years of building this, you always trade off this energy, trade off this versus all the people that you have and you basically, uh, hitting all the walls, hitting all the challenges and it's really hard to stay positive. So I am started as a like, let's say hyper optimistic person, as you remember. Yeah. And starting to be more realistic person, which is I regret because being optimistic is the. One of the best thing that you can like stay with or the entire life.

Michael: Yeah, that's right.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. You did lose a little bit of that optimism over the years for sure. I think you were more into just believing in people and believing in things and you were like always on, like, yeah, no, things would be good. Right. And then, yeah, over time when lots of things haven't been as you were talking, you're like, oh shit, the life is different.

Vlad: Right.

Michael: Um, I think that I still, you know, I always been balancing between being a realist of what we could do, but also trying to stay optimist about or like not the even the optimist, but like this kind of a, you know, just trying to always, um, think of what's the best scenario could be and trying to reach it and in people in me as well. Um, so I didn't lose that. I think I still the same person. I was more patient before. Patient. Not in terms of the, um. I've never been patient in my life with people. Never. It's like, you know, it's the thing like I'm Never patient. So it's like, uh, you know, I cannot play poker, by the way, because everything on my face, emotions, like, I get a lie. Like, literally every time I lie, I. You know, people see that. It's like my colleague. So I don't even try lying. I just, you know, stay honest all the time. Um, but. So I'd never been patient with people, but I was patient with regards to trying things and making mistakes with other people or myself and thinking that after a certain iteration, things gonna work out. So now I'm less patient about those mistakes. So if I see that this thing is not working from the first try or the second try and I try to move on and doing something else because, like, I know that if I'll be just hitting that wall for a long time, I'm missing so many different opportunities. So that's why I. I'm still, you know, I'm still kind of patient with people in terms of, you know, just explaining, mentoring, coaching, giving people opportunity. But if I. Based on all of my experience, if I see that this is not going anywhere, I. I'm still. I stopped being patient with regards to, like, just giving people chances and giving myself chances with people, right? And just say, you know what? It just doesn't make sense, and just move on and being okay with that. Um, so I think I lost that part of me. And do I miss it? No. Um. I think it's just the natural progress. I think that just there's so many different things happening in the life, so many different signals. It's like. You know, who mentioned that, um, I think it was like, about, um. Yeah, someone was speaking about Steve Jobs, and he said that Steve was the best at, um, sifting through the noise so he could see the noise and the signals and never pay attention to the noise, only to signals. So if it's a noise, it doesn't make any sense. So I think, like, with experience in business, um, you try to look more for signals rather than for the noises. So I lost that part of me, uh, that I don't miss that was, um, around kind of, you know, looking at everything that's happening with you, um, without sifting through whether it's a noise or it's a. A, uh. It's a signal. And now just trying to focus on the signals, whether these are the people or opportunities or deals or even myself, my time spent, because I don't have that many. So if before I could say, oh, shit, I. I really would do that. I'll. I'll. I'll Just spend my time there. So now it's like, no, it doesn't make sense spending their time there. I just do something else. So.

Vlad: All right. Okay. So I have easier one to kind of release uh, the tension, uh, from that question. Um, it would be super easy one, um, and that's super important probably for some people who would listen to us and especially our team because some of them usually ask this question, uh, to me, like from the onboardings and everything. So what actually helps with the stress and not what you usually say in interviews, but what really works for you and that would be useful for people, um, because everyone's stressing around and uh, year after year is harder, uh, and difficult than before. And it just accumulates all the kind of, not the negativity but burden of the stress which is affecting your personal life, your work life, your corporate life and ah, everything that surrounds you basically.

Michael: So the stress is definitely, we feel it.

Vlad: Um.

Michael: Hm. So the way I, My personal thing about the stress is that I try psychologically to celebrate small wins all the time. So it's like I wrote a nice post on LinkedIn, that's a win I can celebrate for like a few minutes. I have a great podcast. I'm gonna celebrate. We win the client. I celebrate. We have a nice news. I'm gonna celebrate. So I try to celebrate as many times a day as I can to create the shorter distances and try to put it as the win. Even like, oh, I have like four calls before lunch. I'm gonna get on, um, those meetings, I'm gonna deliver, I'm gonna have fun. And then after lunch, when I'm taking lunch, I was like, oh, that was a great, productive half of the day. I've done it very well. Let's do another one. So through those smaller celebrations, I feel my pacing is shorter because I feel like right now, um, um, we have an anxiety because we always try to think, uh, on the lookout in a very long period of time. So you remember even five years ago, we were always thinking about next month. And then after that we looked at what's next quarter going to look like. And now you're like, quarterly is nothing. It's like a year. And now we look at the year, like, yeah, a year is not a good planning. Let's look for five years. So now you think about the winning or losing in the, in terms of five years, which brings so much anxiety because like just a long period of time, right? So I'm bringing that down into small, small parts and then trying to celebrate those Wins uh, every time. And it kind of help. It's like very. Again it's very childish in a way because like, like who celebrates a nice post on LinkedIn? But that works for me psychologically. Just stay, you know, say put like, uh, what about you?

Vlad: That's the positivity. I think I'm just up to everything that really frustrates me as a challenge. And uh, this is something that I used to say at the very beginning that uh, we always like do or dying. Ah, like we do what we wanted to achieve, what we want to have. And uh, you basically just cannot complain about this. You just do it. And um, it just not worth it if you don't even try to achieve what you just wanted or saying about. And uh, you just always complaining, I don't have enough time, I don't have enough skills. You just have everything. You just don't want to do that. And again, that's evolution of the naivety that we just uh, talked about. And also this kind of developed in me over the thousands of people that we used to work with. And I'm just kind of absorbing all the emotions, all the empathy and can say that we just. And this is my, I think motive for the life that I'm just do or die, uh, or in many things and many sacrifices, I think so how I manage stress, I'm just doing it no matter I like it or not.

Michael: Do you not um, think uh, about the business and just entrepreneurship as a game sometime like I'm thinking every time about. It's like a MMORPG game in a way. So it's like you have time for grinding where you just routinely do stuff. You have time for like farming and hunting. You uh, have time to uh, build yourself a nice armor. Uh, you have time to look uh, and open up new locations, new skill sets. And you just kind of know this, that it doesn't. It's gonna take you like if uh, you know, like when we were growing up, it takes hundreds of hours to develop your character in the game. Hundreds of hours. And you start with a level one when you're naked in the woods with a stick. And then you know in like 300 hours of playing, you have this nice sword. You're 11, 100. You're like killing the bosses. You have the team around you. I feel like that was a, like growing up, I think that was a, uh. It's like when we were playing a lot, it kind of, it helped us to prepare like what the actual life gonna look like in the business. Which like for me is very similarity. So because of that, when I know that it's a routine, routine, routine, I sometimes just feel that I'm just you know, grinding the mobs in the field with like hitting them and just getting the resources and that's what you're doing. You just need to do it hours and after hours.

Vlad: Yeah, I think so too. So it sometimes feels like a game and with a lot of side quests that uh, appearing that you just need to do something, help someone and you will have some sort of kind of reward at the end and experience and you just capitalize on that and proceed over the year after year with like increasing difficulty. So um, I would say that it's just hardcore mode. The game was a hardcore mode. When you just have one life and one mistake or like really you just cannot risk it all. And some people did and some of them succeed, some of them not, most of them not. Um, but yeah, the hardcore mode is basically we feel it on a daily basis because it just a lot of variables in the life and that would be super nice but super difficult game. But again, I uh, also agree on your point that in some way it helped to be prepared for the entire journey because you just staying adventurous and you just proceed through the life from one event to another. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of gamifications out there and it really helps with a lot of anxiety as well. That happens uh, all the time that you just leveling up, grinding, ah, killing bosses, facing all of those kind of bosses. Get your party with friends, family and build your guilt. Your family for example. And yeah, together stronger.

Michael: So yeah, um, while you're on this topic, um, of the path, I um, wanted to ask you, um, over the years, um, did I pass over this kind of, I would say like not the mindset but just the approach, uh, of not uh, looking for shortcuts and just trying to kind of grind your way through the things. Because I felt like, you know, um, when we started this journey, um, you were more into lots of different opportunities and you were very quick to like, let's do this and that and we can try this and that. And I feel like over the years, um, because every time you approach me with this idea and I say like, yeah, I don't know, maybe it's not the best way. And I start kind of, you know, throwing why not versus like why you should try. And I think like over the years it's something that kind of stuck with you like that, you know, you rarely approach me now with this kind of ideas because like, you know, I don't know. So that. Is that something that you lost and then something that you change in yourself? Um, and then do you miss this or uh, or that's. You think that's a part of the realist that you became?

Vlad: Basically, I think that's the part of realist I became. Um, so I'm still opportunistic and I'm still up to a lot of ideas but now something different that I rather wouldn't, would not share those ideas before I get actual traction and the result myself and like got help with all the kind of AI and stuff that happening right now because I feel sometimes like I'm one man army, that I can do a lot of stuff without asking, without proving, without contesting. Yeah. And that's sort of shortcut, but again the longer path because I'm just like validating myself and this kind of stick inside me. Uh, uh, that, that basically helped me to um, prove like have a hard proofs before showing something because then it's just uncontestable.

Michael: Yeah.

Vlad: Yeah. So, yeah. So definitely a lot of like ideas that I like try to um, tell you about. And you did me a lot of pushback. So I think it just sometimes felt strange. Sometimes I felt angry about this because I see that sometimes we also circle back on those decisions after a while and it's just again about how fast we are moving, uh, and like different things like in the company or um, um, in personal life as well. So I think there is definitely some mark on that that I sticking with over the years.

Michael: Well, that's the part of the family counseling that I mentioned, by the way, guys. All right, um, I have an easy one for you, like two very easy ones. So first one is, um, what's the most prominent hire in Balkans all time? A role. Or you can name a person. Like in your opinion, you might not name the person if you don't want to kind of to get like, you know, to stand anyone out. But the most prominent hire all time, Balkans all day, like 10 years.

Vlad: But uh, that's difficult to say. So I think I would say this not from the experience because we've got a lot of great people and uh, for some reason we've got this kind of bureaucracy of hiring great people that kind of frustrates me all the time. But that's the five step difficult process. And we gather all the great people all together. Who is the brightest?

Michael: The most prominent?

Vlad: Yeah, the most prominent over 10 years. So sometimes I working with people and trying to answer this question indirectly. Um, sometimes I working with some people who showed me some soft skills, not kind of hard skills because they kind of obtainable with the time and experience and with kind of constant doing of IT, practical experience etc. But uh, with uh, some soft skills that ignite my ambition to help them out. So on the last interview that I usually have with all the people that coming to our company, I'm actually asking them how myself or you can contribute to their growth, to their ambition. Because why should they care about like increasing revenue, increasing profit, increasing ebitda, uh, who fucking cares about this when you hiring people? They just care about who they work with, what they work on and how this kind of life stage or next kind of big thing in their life will contribute to their goals. So when I hear something meaningful that actually uh, super actionable, where we like both of us or myself or you can contribute, that's the most prominent people that I'm have the chance to work with because they listen and I'm ready to again not being naive, just for the record, to kind of invest my time to develop them to the thing. And this is the prominent people that, yeah, we've got some of them in the company that I'm closely working with or worked with that is spending too much of my time. I think I can justify this for any kind of company wide thing but I'm just spending extra hour, extra two extra week, extra months but trying make someone progress to another level in this game.

Michael: And just to add to this, uh, the most prominent people, after we work with them for a while, what they do, they go out there and they share the same.

Vlad: Right.

Michael: With other people. Right. So they kind of spread it to more people. So I think the most prominent people are those who spread our values to many more people after that. And then after them the other people were men. Right. So those who um, over the years were kind of the bearers of that kind of, you know, Balkans gene in a way.

Vlad: Right, right. That's the culture that we are trying to build. So I wish that all the people in the company would be that prominent. But again uh, a lot of people out of different priorities and again realistic here. Um, and I just can say that there is some sort of chemistry that need to be in the company with some people that cares the most with some people don't care because they also can be useful for the, for everyone else was uh, their ambitions, let's say.

Michael: Yeah, I would, I would, I want to say that you answered this question like a true politician, but. But it's more like a true philosopher, I would say, not a polit. All right, so. All right, well, then this one is the easy one. Uh, what do you consider your biggest professional achievement, your personal one?

Vlad: I still cannot say that. And uh, this is, um, what I had a talk with my wife about. So she usually said to me that I need to be proud. Like, not need to be, but again, based on all the results, you should be proud about what you've built. Yeah, both of you built. And um, I just feel that that's not enough. That's not the, that kind of massive win for everyone that I'm aimed from very beginning. And I'm still with this kind of feeling from day one that it just not enough for me personally. And I wouldn't treat myself that I have a biggest win yet. We just have small victories down the road. We've got a lot of kind of really great things, a lot of cornerstones, a lot of challenges. But still the biggest win till today would be that this company functioning, that we've got to like 300 people believing in us. That's worth something, uh, as a result, I think. But the biggest win is still in the next few years. I think next five, 10 years for us, professionally wise, personally wise, I think the biggest win for myself that I'm still up to learning m. And uh, not trying to be arrogant with, uh, everything that we've built. And a lot of founders have this kind of, um, skill, not skill, but the character, uh, part of their character that growing with them down the road. And there is a lot of founders that having this. But I think that's just waste of time in a way. And uh, you still need to be up to learning as your reward over the years in a way because once you will stop, your growth will stop, you will stagnate, uh, and uh, maybe even worse, you will just starting to degradate and surround you with not just yourself, but with the people that negatively, uh, affect you. And you kind of starting to be in this kind of swamp with low friction, no kind of wins, uh, or growth or opportunities. And you just kind of, you know, staying in the same place. Yeah.

Michael: All right, well then the next one, um, is more to the point. So. Yep, you built two great companies, Belkins and Folderly. Um, if you were to choose to build only one of them between Belkins and Folderly, only the one company you build and run.

Vlad: Someone hit me today.

Michael: Which company would it be? You can only choose either Belkins Or Folderly.

Vlad: There's no question.

Michael: Yes. And then explain why you chose that one over the other one. And you can only build one. Like literally you can spend your 10 years building only that one.

Vlad: Should I choose more people or less people? Because one company have hundred plus or another one 15 people.

Michael: It's not about the people, it's more about just.

Vlad: Yeah, no, I'm joking. Um, okay. Both companies really worth hard to build. And still this kind of in uh, uh, future tense. We're still building those companies. Uh, folderly is a really challenge for us. That was our first product and we just did twice more or even twice more mistakes that we did with Belkins, uh, with the Belkans. We just started our first company that we bootstrapped and because of bootstrapping and because we've managed to kind of put a lot of parts of our souls into Belkins, help us to succeed with other things or build other things. So I think that would be Belkins, uh, because of that, because this is kind of the foundational company and because of being foundational, it just creating a lot of other opportunities. I would potentially choose Folgery because I really like this product and I uh, really like all the people and the culture and the religion about product that we've built. But just one cannot exist because of another. So I think answering this purely from opportunistic character of myself, I would choose Belkans because it's just creating more opportunities. Yeah, yeah. Uh, for a lot of things, not just learning. Because while you're really creating tons of opportunities to learn, like tons of them even just like I cannot take it anymore and you just learn how to build product company. But uh, yeah. So Beliken.

Michael: Okay. All right, cool.

Vlad: They will hate me. I know that they will.

Michael: It's all recorded. So yeah, we will. All right, should it. Should your questions then?

Vlad: Yes, yes. Um, let's go. So, relationships section. Okay, so when did you first think, okay, this partnership between us and actually going to work and uh, what specifically made you feel that?

Michael: Uh, I think that the uh, I think that the first year was really tough one for us just because we had nothing basically. Right. There was no literally and nothing, uh, seemed to work. Uh, but you seems to find um, different solutions. Um, that just really helped us so like um, you know, finding the people who will do work which again were your, you know, for your friends who we paid almost nothing basically penny on the dollar or figuring out the way to, you know, whatever, like set up a legal structure without any additional help. Or finding that one. So it was sort of like way of me, uh, believing that you, uh, know even the hardest problems, um, you know, you were there to help to solve them, those problems. And um, you, you went all in on them. So you didn't. There was no other excuse. You always were available, basically. So it's like, you know, you' and you're solving the biggest problems that are out there and you're getting the job done, right? So it's not that you never had an excuse and you just were doing that, um, you, you were always listening in a way, although I am, um, uh, you know, I like to argue a lot and my position is always very loud. But you always were sort of like listening and then just trying to understand where I'm coming from. And if that position kind of makes sense, then you always swear like, okay, well this position makes sense, fine, we can do it, right? So instead of just saying like, no, no, no, no, let's do like that, right? And so I think these three things were super important the first year that would made me like, oh shit, like, okay, we can go kind of all in there. And then just over the years, right, we've kind of never argued. Um, um, I think you value family same way I value family in relationship. You're a very loyal person to your wife, to your friends. And as a result of that, you always put them in front of yourself instead of putting you. I think it's very valuable because it sort of like shows that uh, you know, um, your own interests are always comes in the second place behind the interest of other people. And I think that's a very strong value in a person who wants to go all, you know, over the long period of time that you wanted to build relationship with. And I think that's kind of, uh, you know, that's what you bring to the table. And I love that early on. And I think we've, you've catered that over the years and you know, here we are ten years after, right?

Vlad: Yeah. I actually have one follow up question to that. So. And I uh, wrote it down. Um, what's the decision that I pushed for you that you disagree with privately, but let it happen. And how did it turn out if you can find something like that?

Michael: Oh, wow. Uh, yeah, I think like, I um, think um, early on, I think like maybe a good example is just early on. Um, I think early on you were always relying on people more than I did. Even when they failed, like when people were failing you, like just failing you, you were Always giving them second and third and fourth chances. And uh, very often I just said, hey, listen, this never going to work. It's like it's better just to, to do something else. Like this person, you know, you see that, it's like, no, no, no. I talk to him or her, it's going to be fine, they're going to make it. And then they let you go. And then at the end you're like, yeah, it didn't work out. So, um, obviously I never brought this up in terms of like I told you then, that's it. Because what's happening is now 10 years forward, you always, even now coming in and say, hey, you know, we need to let this person go. And I always say, no, no, no, no, let's give another chance. And you're like, no, no, no.

Vlad: Right.

Michael: So we kind of flipped the script a little bit. But early on you were very kind of into believing into people and the second and third and fourth and fifth chances. And at the end, um, it just never went to end anywhere.

Vlad: Uh, so, yeah, you know, but I'm bearing this kind of regret for all those people that if they push that hard that I actually try to develop or you try to develop them, that they will be very successful. And uh, this is actually good learning that you just should always rely to the people who cares. And again, those people can, can be caring about everything that you said, but temporarily because at the very beginning as a founders, you just have this kind of um, energy that you're sharing with the people and they like being with you in the same kind of environment. They just using this energy to make great things happen. But uh, when you starting to see that they just going after this energy in a way, you're starting to kind of put the distance to see what the person can actually do by himself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh, I actually like the regret that I have that if they would push harder that they would have great positions, I know great money, that they will get, um, great opportunities. Because again, if uh, they would put themselves in my shoes, they would thought about things that I'm like thinking all the time. They would see this opportunity because, um, at the end this is uh, this kind of biggest massive win that we are coming for. And we will be there because we just stubborn, I think, um, and very ambitious. And uh, people just cannot be on the same page, I think with this because that's kind of super too wide for them to comprehend and uh, maybe sometimes super unrealistic. But I still regret that they didn't believe to this kind of 200%, but maybe 70 or 80, and this kind of 20% is critical to get this kind of. You know how when Ted Lasso, he said that you just need to believe. This is the thing that you just need to believe. And this, uh, everything that you're doing or good at or bad at will turn out for you.

Michael: You know, it's like about developing your own gravitational, uh, pull. Right. It feels like what you mentioned, like, uh, you know, you were always trying to bring people in your, you know, gravitational pull in your sort of like gravity center. And as long as they've been a part of that kind of gravity, uh, there was a lot of energy they were trying. But as soon as you start to let that gravity center go and then help that so they can develop their own gravity centers.

Vlad: Right.

Michael: They didn't develop them.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: And as if, like, they didn't want it to develop their own. Right. And I think like, uh, again, to your point is, um, you know, there was always belief when you pull people into your own gravity center that over the time they also will develop their own kind of gravity energy and they will start bringing more, you know, people around their gravity center. And this actually rarely happens because not many people want that in a way, right. Like kind of develop the character and the hunger and ambition enough to develop that center. And it's very important because, um, again, for the listeners as well, we've seen very often that the motivation of the people. People lose motivation when you let go them from your gravitational pull. It's like that. And that's what tells you whether it's a true motivated person or not. Because the true motivated people, they never lose their motivation if you let go that they develop their own sort of like, mechanism as fear. And they start churning it and turning it and turning. It's, uh, a great way to checking whether there's the right person on the bus with the right motivation or not. Just don't share your energy for a period of time or like several weeks or a month and see where that person gonna land. If you went after a month, you're gonna see that the person develops their own energy center and just generate. Then it's like, okay, this is great, right? But if they lose it and you feel it, because within that month nothing happened. They didn't generate new ideas, they didn't try things, they lost that. Then it means that for them to succeed, they need always to be pulled by your center. Right?

Vlad: Right. And again, you just don't want to spend your energy into the void. Yeah. In void. It's nothing. Just nothing. And actually, can I ask you one more? Because that's just that I wanted to ask. And also like, uh, the one you just asked me about Belkins and Folger. So I have a. For you. Um, what's something about Balkans or building Balkans that you are generally not proud of, but something that still bothers you in a way that you can get rid of or just happened and continues to happen on a daily basis?

Michael: Um, yeah, I've, uh. I'm always kind of frustrated and pissed off from the fact that we never have budgets to spend. Literally, like, you really wanted to pay people higher salary. You wanted to spend more in marketing, you wanted to pay all the benefits in the world. You wanted to sort of be able to afford everything. You want to afford that. You know that you need to afford for this to be very successful operation. But you just cannot like physically, as if like in the laws of the physics in your industry, it's impossible to do that. And what frustrates me is this sort of like sometimes m. The realization that that's the reality, but not accepting that reality because of my character, I just cannot accept it. So I'm trying to break it and trying to figure out what are the other solutions that will allow me to. To afford all of that. But sometimes when the reality hits hard and you just did, and then you're like, you know, you spend a few hours and just shit. And then you're like, try to get that positive energy back and say, uh, no, no, no, we can do that. So I think that's the biggest frustration for me, just not being able to have everything that I want to have.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: And you understand that it's just purely the constraints of a system that you're a part of.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: And when you see the other companies in other systems and you're like, I want that, but I cannot have that. You know? And you don't know whether it's a reality or that's me that are not doing the best I can to break that reality. So I'm still in that part of wanting to break that reality and just say, no, I can get all of that. Just need to find another way of getting that. But the frustration sometimes happen. Yeah.

Vlad: I think just not kind of just on your M or mine shoulders. That's M. That's the not. I wouldn't say problem. But, um, that's the challenge for entire team, what your team wants to have, how they wanted to achieve this and again, everyone just wanted to have. I just want to be in a good, great, healthy, non toxic environment where a lot of things happen to me in a good way. But what you kind of doing for it or you just rely to other people to doing it. If you have like 200 people that relying for someone to bring this on the table for them, that's supposed to be a toxic environment. Even though if uh, uh, you wouldn't feel this way. But that's toxic because everyone expecting and not bringing. And in order to kind of ask. And this would sound rough in order to ask, you just need to see how I contribute to other people in the team because I can address this in most of my kind of functions in the work that I'm contributing to. In both cases Belkin's fault really. Other ventures with other partners. But uh, what is other people? Friction of movement in order to get there.

Michael: Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. I feel like sometimes I think of myself and I think it's probably an ego of mine or just part of the character. But like that it's my responsibility to make this happen for everyone instead of, as you said, it's actually a team effort and it's not just on me to create that environment that everyone needs to do that. But sometimes I feel like if that's not happening, that it must be me who is not delivering uh, and making that decision to make sure that this happens. And yeah, you're right. Right. So I have a, just a section in between. So every, every time I have a guest on the show, I have this, these or that section where you just need to choose this or that.

Vlad: All right.

Michael: Ah. And you know like, and then explain why you choose this or that. So I have a. Because you are great into you know like SaaS, investments, AI and all that. I have a uh, you know, this or that um, um, section um, with regards to the companies or the investors or the people that. And then just tell me what you want to use. So if you were to choose between Zoom and Google Meet.

Vlad: Google Meet.

Michael: Why?

Vlad: Simple. Uh, it's simple because it just integrated within the calendar. Zoom doesn't have any calendar. Maybe that's the pro deformation that we're using Google workspaces for the live. But each time when I have Zoom or got help, um, Microsoft Teams, I just wanted to kill myself uh, straight away. So uh, Google is just super simple.

Michael: Okay.

Vlad: And I think I'm starting to be bullish on entire Google company. Even though I would say ecosystem two years ago, I would say that they are shit. But I am taking this back because they proving that they are not.

Michael: Yeah. Ecosystem play basically.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: Instead of the standalone product like Zoom, actually yeah.

Vlad: Google starting to look from afar like Apple, but not kind of Apple yet, but going there.

Michael: Yeah. All right. For Data Warehouse, Snowflake or Databricks.

Vlad: Databricks. And actually you know that they would say that um. There is a great story at the beginning of our company that we started Belkins and uh, um. We uh, almost closed Databricks as our client. And I remember how I was hyped up that this is a big company, a data company and they were small in a way. They were kind of 50 or 100 people yet. But now there's the really uh, massive company with thousands of people that went to IPO I think or raised billions gazillions of dollars. And I just have a lot of kind of um, positivity when I see databricks. It's not a product placement by the way.

Michael: All right, so who wins long term? Uh, Figma or Canva?

Vlad: Figma.

Michael: Explain yourself.

Vlad: Winning what?

Michael: Uh, just in um, mass adoption, uh, users just who will be. Uh.

Vlad: So uh, I firstly about to say Figma because they are kind of more technological and they implementing a uh, really nice AI solution for building products. So in a way for product future Figma would be the best because they can do right now the last thing that I can remember that they just creating wireframes for the app that you're designing and you can do this by yourself without team. But for the mass adoption and users canva because it's straightforward way to create presentations um and work with uh graphics. So to win the market in mass adoption the Canva will win Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos. All right, there is maybe a third option. Um, so I like two of those guys. Elon Musk pushing a lot of innovation and not popular decisions. Even though I usually uh, disagree with some of his positions. But again um, he's just building the companies that I would build like Neuralink, uh SpaceX and uh, those companies come from inspiration and uh, from pushing civilization forward. And that's not that many companies that you can compare with. Uh, but Bezos did a great job of building operation business uh that working uh, in just massive with a lot of great decisions. But Elon Musk, I would choose Elon Musk because of the uh, just opportunistic approach. We're sharing this I think um, who

Michael: will win long term? Um, HubSpot or Salesforce?

Vlad: HubSpot here feels like underdog that uh, chasing Salesforce. Um, I think Salesforce because of the capitalism they just have lots more money and you just see over us that they just have skyscraper after the skyscraper. I never have seen this for HubSpot. So um, they just were first and um, I think they just pioneering space and they got the biggest clients. But again I wouldn't say that HubSpot is a big company. Uh, they did also great job but in their segment. But long term you just more money creates more money. And maybe Salesforce would buy them out. I think. Uh, and I cannot imagine scenario where HubSpot would buy Salesforce. It's just I don't know how much money that would cost. Yeah, that would be, you know, hundreds, billions of dollars.

Michael: Um, all right, um. Sequoia or Anderson Horowitz?

Vlad: Sequoia. I've had an experience to speak for some people from Anderson Horowitz and that they just arrogant, uh, and you just have a hard time still working with them. And again not just wanted to say the bad things about them. They great and they invest in great companies and they are biggest and greatest uh, in what they build. Uh, but just my experience comes from frustration of speaking to some random guys uh, from the fund. And again maybe this is because we're bootstrapping and uh, that happened that I um, had a chance to talk to one like few of them. But Sequoia is also maybe in the same league or uh, be higher in my eyes because they investing and like also great companies but they have great culture, investment culture. Better than understand Horati I think.

Michael: All right.

Vlad: But that's um, just my humble opinion.

Michael: All right. Ah, so first for advice for the first time founder bootstrap or go and raise capital.

Vlad: Still bootstrap, um, down the road you would need to raise the capital. Um, you just at the beginning and right now with the AI I think you just don't need to uh, stretch yourself too thin with raising money. You can build your product, you can build mvp. You can build MVP in one month or even a few weeks to starting to get five, 10 clients. That would be enough to raise your capital. So I think short term, like maybe halfway the year or a few months as you can bootstrap or again if you would generate a really great idea and you get first traction. And again depends on how much money you earn. You will decide whatever you like. But eventually you need to raise money because it would be hard to build company from your own pocket.

Michael: You managed to build a successful agency. You have a couple of million dollars in arrangement, you generate some profit. Um, what would you advise to this founders? Take this profits and build the product and then run an agency and the product at the same time, or take the profits, build the product, sell the agency and just do the one, one of the two, or manage to do both, uh, with the profit that the agency, uh, generates, putting in the product and trying to build both.

Vlad: I would focus on one. Um, I would focus on one because you just wanted to spend as more as you can of your time to build something because it will pays off quicker. But you can kind of articulate and uh, um, basically try to build like we do 15 things at a time, but you just need to rely more on people. And as we already know that that's not guarantee you anything. And uh, again, we as a founders should rely on ourselves in building companies and uh, share this kind of feeling with other people and try to make sure that they sharing the same shoes when you're building company. But again, uh, the best advice you can. You can probably need to push one thing at a time, but knowing myself, I would push 20 things at one time in the same time. Because I just like the challenge and uh, the opportunity. Yeah.

Michael: Uh, all right, well, that was it. Yeah. Okay, so you want to shoot me a question just for you to get some rest from all the answers, because I'm gonna finish with my easy part now. We're gonna go far moderate and then difficult part. So.

Vlad: All right. So, um. Okay. Okay, three hard questions left.

Michael: Okay.

Vlad: That I wanted to ask. And let's, uh, go.

Michael: We have like, uh, what. We have like 30 more minutes. So, uh, let's do one hard and then I can shoot a few more.

Vlad: Okay.

Michael: All right, let's go with this kind of voice in the microphone.

Vlad: Yeah. Um, late night DJ fanboys. Okay, let's go. So that's inner game. Uh, the boss question. When was the last time you genuinely considered to walk away? Not from frustration, but from the real depth? What pulled you back? Even the thought, not just an action from everything we're doing, for everything we're

Michael: building, um, just walk away. Yeah.

Vlad: Uh, just like drop the mic. Yeah.

Michael: So the way I looked at the time I'm spending is the priority of things. So, like, you know, Balkans being the main core priority. Like, you know, Balkans put bread, uh, on the table. Uh, you know, we know that that's the best, shortest path for us to, you know, to get, uh, you know, to get our wealth and generally the space that I'm kind of excited about and Bullish about right now. Uh, so, um, when it comes to Belkins, there is nothing that could happen that get me walk away. I'll be like, I'm going to just do this, never happen. Then it goes down to the second priority. For example folderly or any other um, companies, um, we're doing or investments here. I more rely on you as well as on just generally what's happening. And then I'm trying to be more pragmatic but still opportunistic so I can give it the chances I can wait out but then kind of are on the fence sometimes. So sometimes I feel like, okay, I can walk away with this or not, but that's fine. And then the third priority are any new partnerships or any uh, opportunities that I can walk away tomorrow if I feel that the person that I was doing this with let me down. So as you know, there were a few partnerships or the companies we co founded in the last three years from 2023 to 2025 that uh, you know, we walked away or the person on the other side walked away. And it didn't bring me any frustration or anything like that. It's just purely like a commercial. So I'm more realistic of that. So that's why sort of like when it comes to Belkins, I doubt that it's ever happened or will happen until we win because I know that that's what the win gonna look like for me. Anything else, I'm more realistic, more pragmatic and it's just very easy to walk away, see that this is not working and then uh, there's no emotion there. I'm just kind of, uh, even if we're losing some money, uh, it's okay than losing um, sleep over it, right? But uh, when it comes to Belkins, um, because it's all in, uh, I am losing sleep if something is not working. So you can push harder. So it's just different.

Vlad: Okay. Okay. And uh, opening counterfactual questions, uh, that I have, um, if Balkans had failed at the like 20 months mark, what do you think you would be doing right now?

Michael: Um, so if Balkans fails, we don't have belkins.

Vlad: Like yeah, 20 months after one year.

Michael: Huh huh. Um, yeah, so what I would probably do is out, uh, I would definitely double down on this whole kind of thought leadership thing, uh, just kind of the LinkedIn and the podcast and the newsletter and just trying to be louder there, um, if Balkans fail and we've made zero money out of it, then I would need to pay for living somewhere. So I'll probably then consider an industry, um, where I'll make the most amount of money short term kind of. Yeah. But I think like we're, you know, we've, we've have a strong brand and just you know, we've. I have a lot of people in the network that kind of. That I feel that I'll still gonna be making for good living with like, you know, just kind of consulting and some other things. Yeah. So um. Yeah. But um, I feel like um, I would need to spend some time reflecting on the failure and what we've done before I jumped into any other industry. I won't just kind of jump from it right, right off the bat, right away. I just, I would need some time to kind of reflection and then falling in love with something else and then doing it. So um, yeah. So right now like personally I, and again obviously we're different in this with you but I still a bit uh, kind of boyish and curious um, about the space and uh, love it more. And then I feel like there's much more work to be done. So if I fail in this space that I would definitely need some time to reflect why I failed. Maybe write a book about it, the biggest failure and try to capitalize on that and only then maybe do something or I'll be pulled in some ventures. But it's nothing like that. I want to do it right now. So. Yeah.

Vlad: Okay, interesting. Um, I think if I would fail, we would fail Belkans what I would do. So I think I would try to stay to build company potentially, um, even more likely but with the less people I potentially would stay to like up to 10 people and would build a great company. Um, but yeah, I don't think I would consider to try to work for someone else because I just like that freedom that we obtained over the years and the freedom is maybe that would be the biggest win I think.

Michael: But we are working for someone else right now. We're working for our teammates, we're working for our customers. You always work for someone. It's not like you're free to do like you're free to do uh, like the things you want, but in consideration to the people that you're serving. So in a way like if you be part of the team, like let's say you're part of the Google team and you're doing a product with Google.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: Like you're still going to be free to do things your own thing. No one could be on top of your hand. It's just you're going to work with someone else budget or you have investors like you if investor going to, uh, buy 60% of belkins. Basically. 59%.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: 51%. You're going to be working for someone, basically.

Vlad: That's true. That's true. So, uh, we tried to avoid this for many years, and we kind of were successful and, uh, in certain stages, that potentially can be the key how we can grow company forward. But I just have this feeling that I never wanted to be this kind of small cogwheel in the system. You just wanted to be something to build something greater or something bigger.

Michael: I think it's just, uh, the trauma from the past when we were part of that startup that you felt like you were just the cogwheel and you're replaceable.

Vlad: Yeah.

Michael: And you don't want to be replaceable. I feel that's it. But, um, yeah, I think I worked that trauma, um, myself out, so I don't have it. Yeah. All right, so it's my turn with. With difficult questions. Um, all right, well, I'm gonna, um, I'm gonna start with the boss level questions. Probably the hardest one that I have here.

Vlad: Okay.

Michael: So we have, uh, quite challenging targets for the next year that I took ownership of. Do you think I can do it? Do you genuinely think I can meet those targets alone? No, generally I took the ownership. I said I'm going to make those targets next year. Uh, you said, okay. Do you generally think that I can do it?

Vlad: That one.

Michael: Okay.

Vlad: Stick with you.

Michael: This is exclusive, by the way, on the camera. Yes.

Vlad: I see he's worried and I'm sweating a bit.

Michael: Yeah. So, um, as Socrates told one day, it's not about, like, how you do it. Like Rocky Balboa tells you, like, it's not about how hard you can hit, it's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. Yes.

Vlad: So you can take this as an answer, but no, Um, I think, uh, I'm like, over the years that we're building everything together, I haven't trust in you with no doubt. And even though if you would say that we will do in the next year, like 100 million, that would be ridiculous goal, I would support you. So, uh, it doesn't matter. Um, I think for me, um, will you succeed or not? I just will do anything that I could to help you with this. And it doesn't matter what I think. I would just believe in you. Like I said, believing is your 200%, uh, investment. And we, um, just need to make it happen. I don't think we can even consider bad case scenario or worst case scenario.

Michael: Obviously the first bump, uh, on the road that I stumbled on, I'm gonna come to you and say, vlad, sorry, can you help me with this? No, I think it's just more like, you know, I'll be thinking about this and trying to provide a creative, creative ideas and creative things about. Okay. How we can approach this problem differently, something that we've never done and try to kind of push that. But obviously, you know, it's not like, as you said, it's not like I'm doing it alone. We're doing it as a team. Right. So that's why. Yeah.

Vlad: And there is a lot of burden on the team. But again, one of your, um, greatest ability, I would say that you can shape status quo within the people with your energy level, um, and not just being the loudest in the room, but you just try to contest people. And uh, there is the problem with the people that they cannot kind of fight you back. But for those people who can't fight you back, that could be the meaningful opportunities that you can create.

Michael: Um, can you share a moment when, uh, you've been the most frustrated with me in our partnership?

Vlad: Okay.

Michael: When you wanted to like, oh, I'm gonna kill this guy.

Vlad: Um, let me think. I definitely got a few of those moments.

Michael: Get me my list.

Vlad: Yeah, one second.

Michael: I have Michael's list. Frustration.

Vlad: Uh, yeah, yeah, frustration list. So I think I would start my list with the things that we eventually circling, uh, back in some time. That pisses me off. And I'm just like, what the fuck? I already have been said that before. I already have a lot of thought work. Uh, and uh, whatever I did and uh, you came back with the same idea and maybe you can forgot about this. And I'm bringing back that. Okay, I already told you this. So that sometimes really frustrates me. And um, what would be the most frustrating thing? I'm really hard to be frustrated with any kind of things that can, uh, happen. But you have the kind of ability, uh, to make that happen. Whereas decision that you can do. And I'm just, okay, do whatever you like. I think some ways how you work with people sometimes, like, just like, what the fuck is going on? And I'm just like, okay, that's he's part of the team and you know better. But, uh, that may be because I'm, uh, doing my leadership work a bit differently because I have different instruments. So sometimes I'm just like, what the fuck is this? What the Fuck is happening? Or I, uh, would do these kind of things differently. So the work with the people would be the top.

Michael: Okay. Yeah. I do have, um, my own way of doing this, so.

Vlad: Yeah. Um.

Michael: All right. Um. Do you consider this year to be win or lose?

Vlad: 20, 25?

Michael: Yes.

Vlad: Lose.

Michael: Why?

Vlad: We just struggle from January to December. Struggle after struggle, Bad decision after the bad decision. Late decision making.

Michael: Yeah.

Vlad: And we did all the mistakes that, uh, I'm trying to say that we shouldn't do, but we did it anyway, and we teach our people to do the same. So we kind of cut ourselves in the immersion of failure for the few years in a row. But again, we did great with the numbers.

Michael: So. Hold on. So I'm trying to be a politician here. The glass is half empty, basically. That's what you're saying. We've did a lot of things. Like, actually, which is fine, is that's why we are, like, working together. Like, for me, it's, uh, a half full. Because this year we've broke so many things and transformed so many things and change the mindset in people and so many things and change in our mindset that I feel like we've built the foundation for ourselves to set up for success. Because, like, you've learned so many things from the mistakes that you've made, from the frustration from the late decisions you're making. That is just going to be more and more and more of that, you know, last year. So that's kind of. So I feel like it's a win and you think that it's a lose, which is, again, at the end of the day. Yeah, that's what. How we work together. Right. So. Yeah.

Vlad: Right.

Michael: Um, all right, so I have one more question, the tough one. But maybe you can go ahead and, uh, if you have. Do you have any other questions in the list? If not, then I'm gonna finish with my own one.

Vlad: And I have one easy question. All right. Let me do my thing.

Michael: It's fine.

Vlad: So, um, what. The luckier thing that happened to us that we are rarely acknowledge.

Michael: Lucky thing.

Vlad: Yes.

Michael: Oh, wow. I think we're not lucky people. I never think that someone. I got something because I was lucky. I was like, oh, wow. Uh, that was lucky.

Vlad: Yeah. Uh, but some people would say that what, uh, we've built and how we've built just a lot of luck because we build with money from our own pocket. We invested everything we've got. Some people that really bright, uh, that believe in something. So potentially that might be a lot of luck or maybe That's a system.

Michael: I don't believe in luck. I'm sorry, it's just uh, yeah, it's never, never. We've never got anything that was just there was a surprise for us. Oh wow. That happened. They were never like that. We're like whatever happened was planned. So it's like you plan the growth, you plan the great people, you plan the clients, uh, you plan this. And if you're in shitty planning or you're not doing it, you're losing it. So the fact that you said we've lost this year in terms of some of the numbers we didn't get or some of the KPI we uh, didn't hit, I mean we're not lucky. And then the year before when we hit it, it was also work. So I never considered us lucky or ourselves lucky or that we got an easy win. We've never, I feel like the last 10 years been grind, uh, grind, grind and all the things were like very tough. And everything we've earned was a hard work. And there was not like, I think it was not luck. Like I feel like that maybe a luck going to happen in the future when you can get results for the lack of effort. I think for me result the luck is the minimum effort or lack of effort and getting something so that we've never been lucky because we've always put so much effort in getting everything.

Vlad: Yeah, uh, for me that would be the people who believe in us. And that's maybe again too wag. But just imagine that there is a third party perspective like selling to a client and client wouldn't agree or no or say yes and we'll sign this client. But same with the people that they just listen to the story, listen to you, listen to our people that kind of in the first, later stages listen to me. And they uh, said that okay, this guy is kind of genuine, honest. I uh, really like to work with them. So maybe you would say that this is the result of the work that we did and the reputation that we've built. But that was that way in the very beginning when we just met some random people and they just stayed with us and they were uh, the foundation of the company and contribute to the culture.

Michael: But yeah, well I agree to disagree here because those people stayed because you put in effort, because you cared, because you showed up because you wanted to help them, because you're interested in them. Like lots of the people, they are not there. So when you got on the call, people are lazy, they're not motivated, they don't want to work with you, they're more egoistic, they think about themselves and because they're not putting the work in, then it's like similar to when you do a podcast with someone and um, um, live, it's one thing. But if you do it online, sometimes people are showing up lazy, sometimes they're distracted sometimes because they don't need that. So the fact that I feel like we have a great work ethic and you have a great work ethic and you show up every time for people, People feel that they wanted to give it back and they also show up for you. And that's kind of the energy sharing thing that happened. So if you didn't do the work, imagine if you didn't do the work and people still stayed like, you know, that is not the case like every time if you don't do the work and you're like m. Okay, okay. And people like, oh, I don't want to work with that person. Right. And then you do this. So that's why it's probably like the work. Uh, yeah.

Vlad: So, all right, um, let's go with your.

Michael: I think like the, the last one and then we're done for today is let's go. And it's one of the difficult ones, so be genuine with me here.

Vlad: Um, okay.

Michael: Do you think you are a great CEO or a good ce?

Vlad: Um, from uh, what I already said today, that we failed something that I see that we failed year and uh, I bear responsibility than uh, about everything and about uh, all the project that we have. Uh, um, um. That's really hard question. You know, when we kind of sharing all the hats with Belkins, with Folgerly, with all the companies that we have. Sometimes you're just starting to forget what is your initial role. When you do sales, you do marketing. When you do like delivery team or you do product or design or whatever, sometimes your boundaries of the position or function that you're managing is kind of starting to disappear. Or again being Wagner and this is the times when I failed to be the CEO because. And this they happen all the time because we m again changing a lot of hats. And I'm constantly working on that. This is basically the reason why I would say that not the best yet because again didn't bring a big victory, but created an environment where people stick and again together we build this together. So uh, I would say yes, I'm really good CEO when we've got to end result. I really don't care about progress, don't care about path you're just spending your energy, your health, your life, your personal life, your corporate life on the things that maybe will worth something or will bring you something. But, uh, uh, so far it's not enough, I think. But that's maybe hypercritical. Um, but I feel this way.

Michael: Um, I've spoke, uh, with a colleague of ours on the phone a few days ago and uh, he asked me some advice about the title he wants to put on. Because he was like a principal and a co founder, and now his co founder wanted to be a CEO. So he was like, uh, you know, like, uh, what should I do? Whatever, right? And we start brainstorming about like, what, what the title, why the title is important. And it got me thinking about this idea of why I am kind of Chief Growth Officer. And what it helped me is to, to be put in a certain category by people. So if you're a Chief Growth officer, uh, then it means that marketing people work, talk to you, revenue people talk to you, salespeople talk to you. Because they kind of put you in the category of like the acquisition. And if you're a CEO, people put you in a category of executive, like operations, growth of the business, sort of like things like hr, like things how to build these great companies, how to all of that. And that got me thinking that the title is important to put yourself in a certain category of what your responsibilities could be and what the end decision you need to drive for the company. And I feel we both made a few mistakes of like trying to wear many hats instead of putting us in a certain category, which allow us to further longevity because we were like, yeah, that's great, but within the business realm, it's better to put yourself in a certain kind of category and say, okay, if I am a CEO or I'm cmo, or I'm a CRO, or I'm chief Growth officer, whatever. This is the area of I'm responsible for the ultimate this. And that's where people, people will place me. And that's where placing myself, that will focus on that. And because of that, you are not taking the ownership of the entire thing, but only of the part that works under you. That helps yourself to deal with the stress, basically. Right?

Vlad: So, yeah, yeah, that's 100% right. Yeah.

Michael: All right, well, we're done for today. Vlad, thank you so much for being part of Belkin Podcast. Thanks for coming on.

Vlad: Yeah, thank you, Mike.

Michael: It was a great conversation.

Vlad: That was really nice.

Michael: And thanks everyone for, uh, joining on today and being part of, uh, uh, Belkin's podcast and tuning in, and, uh, hope to see you all next, uh, time.

Vlad: Yeah. Thank you, everyone.