Building Executive Brand using a Talkshow with Anand Sundaram

Welcome, everybody, to yet another episode of Behind the Mic. Today, we're going to be talking about brand presence, especially like executive brand presence. And we're going to talk to Anand Sundaram today about that. One of the ways in which people are building their personal brand, executive brand, is using a talk show.

And Anand has his own talk show as well. So we're going to be delving a little bit into the idea of how do you define your brand and how can you build the brand using a talk show. So I kind of wanted to bring Anand over here and talk to him about this. Welcome to the show, Anand.

Thank you, Arjun. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. Awesome.

So Anand, let me start off with the Choices You Make podcast. Just maybe talk to us a little bit about your journey starting the show as well as what was the catalyst behind that for you? Sure, sure. I think as you probably heard in these theatrical trailers, it's 23 years in the making, but that's kind of how long it took me to kind of eventually say that I really have to put something together.

But it all started really when I came to the U.S. I came here in 98 as a student to study, and growing up as Indians, this was a path everyone followed, right? You're either becoming an engineer or a doctor.

So I became an engineer, came here to do my master's, went to KU specifically because that's where I was getting funding. And then I joined Sprint specifically because KU went Sprint, was doing research at that time. So just easy for me to join Sprint. And then paths continued.

I stuck in telecom. There are a lot of things I did right, a lot of things I did wrong. Eventually, I'm in a very good spot right now, but there are a lot of things I would have gone back and done different. And so I realized that going through that journey, there was very little guidance that I had.

I had friends I would talk to, but no mentor that I could really sit down and ask, hey, I'm in this fork in my life, whether it's personal or career, what do I do? So it was really gut feel. It was what I felt was right. Luckily, everything worked out.

And now I'm in a position to my 11-year-old son is to kind of imbibe all that knowledge that I've gained through my, you know, years here, to kind of educate him on the choices he should be making. But then I realized that I'm just one person, right? There's so many other people out there. Everyone has a story to tell.

And how do I tap into each of those stories? So not only for my son, but everyone else can get a wealth of knowledge, just through the journeys that, you know, everyone like you and me have followed. So I try to go out there and listen to a lot of podcasts. And there were a lot of podcasts about very successful people, right?

There's the Elon Musks and the Steve Jobs of the world. And I realized I can't really emulate any of them. They're the top 0.2%, right?

Steve Jobs, I remember, was up in the Himalayas when he was 19. I'm like, I'm struggling to do my master's here, I can't do what he was doing. And so it's hard to emulate what that top 1% does. And I couldn't really find anything that talked to the stories of just the average people like you and me, right?

The other 99%. And so I realized if I can't find it, let me just create it myself. and so eventually I kind of put the bullet bit the bullet and said this is it I need to create the stories and that's really what motivated me or the catalyst to go and put this podcast together so it's been a little over a year year and a half and growing and I've been very excited to host this podcast The idea of taking mentorship from one person itself is like something for everybody but I think like you brought up a really good point every time you think about a mentor you're thinking about like you know it's like yeah maybe their story was different and like everything and so now you are talking to a lot of people collecting as much information about like so many people who are relatable to you who are kind of in the same walk of life as you are and that's really powerful and i feel like you definitely have something over there i'm kind of curious about this what are some of these lessons that you have learned in this podcasting world and like real world decision making that you have applied to your own life since you started this?

Yeah, I think I keep thinking when I initially started the podcast, the main goal was for the listeners, right? I get a diverse set of people on the podcast, people who are very similar, very dissimilar, with the hope that again, get enough data points that listeners get value out of it. But as I went through a bunch of these podcasts and just like the conversation we're having here the podcast is very organic it is very informal and can really go in any direction that we want and so I had to become a good listener and I realized although there may be people who may not agree with me the hope is I'm moving in in the real world towards becoming a better listener you know day after day and this and this podcast really helped me because during the podcast, I have to be engaged.

I've got to be listening. I've got to understand where is this conversation going? How can I pull insights from this conversation to add value to the conversation? So those are all, I think, the benefits that I'm, the lessons I'm seeing through me doing the podcast.

And then really, I'm a listener of my own podcast. So the more people I talk to, the more viewpoints I get, the more broader my thinking becomes, right? So when you know only one thing, that's all you know. But now I'm talking to, I've talked to the roofer, he owns a business that done my roofing.

I've talked to a journalist, I've talked to a good friend of mine, who's a who's a car journalist and a telecom journalist, a lawyer who knows Chinese and a bunch of other languages. So it's just amazing to kind of listen to their stories um and what i've realized is although we're all very unique we're all very different we all have followed very different paths there's so many similarities between all of us that at the end of the day you know i feel i'm doing this podcast with the hope that you know i'll get a lot of lessons but but sometimes it's only one lesson and the one lesson is to just strive and just continue to focus on your goals and you'll get somewhere closer.

You may not get to your goals, but you'll get somewhere there, which is interesting right across the many people that I continue to talk to. But really, it's been exciting. And those are kind of probably my lessons I've learned is really to listen more, listen better, and just to learn from everyone around you. yeah i think the active listening part of it is something that i probably wouldn't say that as a person growing up and especially when you were in like growing up like in india in a place where like whoever talks the most is like kind of getting this and like you're more focusing on talking and then less on listening i feel like the idea of like running a show and explicitly like listening uh to what people are saying so that you could like react in meaningful ways is actually a great lesson in itself, right?

And I also like your point about there is something to learn from everybody. Any specific story or anything that comes to mind? I know that you've interviewed people from different walks of life over here, specifically around the point that we're talking about over here is each person has a brand or you perceive them in some ways. And then when you interviewed them in your show, Did that change your perception of them?

Did you feel like you were able to connect to them at a different level? Any story in that regards that come to your mind? Yeah, a few of them. One specifically is, his name is Sid, and he is the CMO of a startup.

The CEO is a good friend of mine. So he is a CMO there. So going in, he was one of the first few that I went in blind. The earlier guests that I had were all friends, right?

People I knew just to get them in and start building some content. Sid was kind of the first one I went in blind, right? So I looked at his LinkedIn profile and he was the chief marketing officer, chief strategy officer in the startup. And that's all I knew.

Once we started kind of talking, there were just so many similarities between him and me, right? I've been, as a child, lived in Scotland and then went back to India and been here nearly half my life now. Similar to him his dad was in the merchant navy so he traveled around quite a bit at the early age He listens to rock music so do I And so there are a lot of these similarities which I wouldn have figured out just by looking at that person LinkedIn profile And so I think that what on paper a lot of things don come out right So it hard to on a resume or on a LinkedIn profile it hard to really judge a person brand or a person character or a person interests just by looking at those few words, you really have to talk and engage with that person to kind of really figure out, you know, what really is the brand behind this specific person.

Another interesting, although all of my discussions have been interesting, another very interesting one, I think, was another lady I talked with who just wanted to learn Chinese. And so she moved to China, became fluent in Chinese, taught English there for a couple of years, and then decided to come back and become a lawyer. Right. So now she's a lawyer.

She runs her own organization, but also speaks multiple languages. And so just the journey that she's followed. And again, when you would look at her, you know, you would not know that she's a multilingual. and it'd be funny if you heard Chinese coming out of her.

Again, not something that you would know just by looking at her, right? That she's fluent in Chinese. So it's very interesting. You really have to kind of talk to individuals, engage with individuals to learn a lot more about them and the surprises you get, it's amazing to learn so much about them.

I really like that. Especially like the flavor of what you're talking about is like usually these conversations are about like you know these rags to riches story or like i had like so many failures and then i was like this successful person but like no it's not about that it's like these smaller things that you did and i and i really like that flavor that's coming through your show and then like sort of double clicking on one of these things right like just looking at someone's linkedin profile and like coming up with like a judgment of what it is like i kind of did that like right before this episode what i did is like went to your linkedin profile like you know it's like hey hanan sundram and like this isn't And impressions and like, what would be like the perception?

And like, of course, I know you, it's a little bit colored because like we've had conversations before we've had a prep call and like, we know a little bit more about each other, but just from wearing the lens of like, if someone's looking at your LinkedIn profile from scratch, what would they think of you? Right. Like just looking at it. Right.

And the thing that like struck to me was like, oh, obviously you're like an engineer by training. You're like well educated and you are a leader. you're like a vice president of a big company and so all these are like obvious things but then like this idea that like you are running your own podcast about the choices you made me like zoom in so it's like again right like i'm here uh trying to wear the hat of a person who doesn't know you but just looking at your linkedin profile is like oh this person cares about people or like this person is interested in behavioral science or something of that sort is the perception that I'm getting about it.

So maybe you tell me is like when others see you, what is the perception that you want them to get? And does this what the thing that I shared mirror that in some ways? It does. It's hard.

I'm not trying to push a perception on anyone when I first meet them. Right. It just comes naturally. Right.

And I think that's the way everyone needs to be. But I think just after the first few conversations that people have with me, they first figure out I'm a very talkative person. I talk a lot, which I love. But at the same time, I'm listening.

I'm getting better at that listening part of it. And I'm engaging. And I would consider myself kind of having a good broad understanding of a lot of things with probably minimal understanding in depth on anything. whether it's technology, politics, religion, cars and music I probably have the most interest in.

But when they talk to me, they'll realize that they can carry on a conversation for an extended period of time. Just because I am open to really taking the conversation anywhere as long as it's interesting and not, you know, there's no aggression in it, right? So we can start off with just general weather and then move over to politics and then move over to technology and science and business. And that's what happens.

Right. And a lot of these, the parties I go to or the social events I go to, we really end up talking about a lot of things. So I think that's the impression people get is that I'm an approachable person. I'm easy to talk to.

One feedback I've been getting, which is very interesting through the podcast. And this is, again, people who are just hearing me because my podcast is purely audio. There's no video. Is that I've got a pleasant voice to listen to, apparently, on the radio.

I don't know how it is in real life. So that's another, I guess, perception and impression people are now getting of me just orally, you know, kind of the audio that they get is that. But I think that's really what I want to portray is approach me. if you have any questions, if you want to talk about anything, if you want to brainstorm.

And luckily, that's the impression people are getting. And I see that because a lot of my friends, like even yesterday, I was talking to a friend of mine, he called up, say, hey, you know, I'm thinking of this new idea. I'm brainstorming this. What do you think?

You have 30 minutes to talk about it. And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. And we're just talking about the idea, you know, kind of constructively criticizing it and all of that. So I think that's the impression and perception that people have of me, which is hopefully positive.

That's great. I think you talked a lot about your perceptions from a person who would approach you, talk to you, and after that first conversation, sort of taking even one step back, right? So a lot of your personal and professional experiences speak for itself, right? Like, for example, like you're a vice president in a company.

So just somebody who even before they approach you, this is like a completely new person. They are going by what kind of information about you that you have put out there in the world. And I'm kind of curious to know whether is this something that like you should be paying more attention to or how have you thought about that? Right.

Like, oh, people are going to come to my LinkedIn profile. are going to think about this. They're going to come to my podcast and they're going to like perceive me like this. And I'm kind of curious to know a bit more about whether there is a conscious effort in shaping your identity through these things.

I don't think it's conscious, but there's definitely a subconscious. Well, let me say this, right? So there are probably two sides of every individual. There's the professional side and there's the personal side.

and I think we talked about it the last time, is I feel that there has to be as much of an overlap as possible between the professional side and the personal side. Because again, you have to be authentic. You've got to be natural. And if they're totally disjoint sets, then you're not natural in one or the other.

So there has to be a big overlap, but there also has to be some uniqueness in how you behave in your personal life versus how you behave in your professional life. If you talk to my friends, they're like, oh, Anand's so jovial, right? He's silly a lot of times and he's a lot of fun, cracks a lot of jokes. Whereas if you ask professional colleagues of mine, maybe one out of three, maybe what they come out with.

Silly, definitely not something that would come out of their mouths. But yeah, he's funny and he's good to talk to. So that's kind of where the overlap is, right? So you've got to make sure that when you're trying to shape your identity, you are creating the similar perceptions, right?

So if it's Facebook, which is more of a personal social media platform, maybe there it's okay to kind of show your silly side or your fun side or your adventurous side. Whereas on LinkedIn, which is more of a professional social media platform, you've got to be careful of what you portray there, right? I've seen a lot of posts would go on a tangent, which are not semi-professional. and then there's a lot of discussion around it, right?

And so that's where I think is there has to be, again, some, a lot of similarity where, again, your Facebook profile can be very different than your LinkedIn profile. There still has to be a lot of similarity, but there's some uniqueness that you've got to maintain between the two. What I do think, though, is you still have to use your LinkedIn profile to bring in some of your personal attributes in there because LinkedIn isn't set up to do that. And so the way I do that is with the podcast line item right on my experience Along with all the experience I have and worked everywhere I also host a podcast I the founder of a startup that I do on the side And then, of course, I've got my MBA and my master's, and then I'm on the board here and there.

So I think when they look at that, then they're like, oh, you know, this guy's not only got experience in the telecom industry, he's been there for whatever, 23 years, but he's got this podcast. he has a startup, so he's got the strategy side. I play in a band, so maybe I even have that there, right? It's kind of personal, but at the same time, they want to know that this individual is multifaceted.

And whether it's you looking for a job or you're just connecting with other people in organizations because you're on a sales team, I think that those talking points become very, very important. And I'll wrap up with kind of one example that's just had in the past. So this podcast experience I just added recently, I think probably a couple of months ago. And so in my role as a sales leader, I'm talking to partners and customers all the time.

And just as we're kind of stalking each other on LinkedIn, I do that to them before I get on the call if it's a first call, and they do that to me. And so I had a call with the VP of a multinational company the other day. We talked about business for the first 20, 25 minutes of the 30-minute call. Just before we were hanging up, he was like, hey, Anand, tell me about your podcast.

I'm like, whoa. I was like, take it aback for a bit. And that was good because now we've broken the ice, right? So my next conversation with him a week down the line, two weeks down the line, is going to be more friendly.

We'll talk about the podcast. I hopefully will have him on the podcast. but that really helped break that ice and now move from being a very professional discussion to a very informal discussion. We're still very professional, but it's now very informal, right?

Because he knows a lot more about me beyond just me being this and doing that. So I think that's where you really have to take the benefit of both your personal and professional experiences and kind of shape your identity to make sure that you're reflecting the right attributes on the personal side and the professional side with a lot of commonalities, hopefully. I like that example that you gave because it is something that most sales or like customer facing people are always striving.

I mean, the idea of like you having your professional brand, but also bringing your authentic self from your personal experiences because you're a whole person and then like using that to like forge the connections at like a deeper level than what you would if you were just talking about like work. I think that makes for a really good balance, which is kind of like, I want to double click on that a little bit more over here is this like your brand and its impact on like customer perceptions, especially for someone who's like phasing people over here.

So, like, you were spot on, right? Like, almost everybody, when they're going on to a meeting with, like, an unknown company or, like, unknown people in a company, they are doing a little bit of scouting, just looking at, like, LinkedIn profiles and making sure that they know a little bit about this person to form that connection over there. So, there is a lot of your brand that comes into play here. The podcast was a great connection for you.

Do you think, is this something that like consciously other executives should also be paying attention to, to like create a brand for themselves that they would be perceived upon when like they come into customer conversations? I think so, right? And again, I think we've talked about this in the past. We are all salespeople, right?

Whether you're an engineer or an operations or a doctor or whoever you are, right? We're all salespeople. We're selling ourselves every day, right? Again, going about talking about the perceptions.

We want to make sure that we're perceived well in front of the other person. So we're selling something every day. And then as executives, I think that perception creation becomes even more important because they're representing that organization. that they're working for.

They are the leader. So as they go in, they're representing the organization. So making sure that their brand is original and authentic, I think, becomes very, very important. I think the authentic part of it is really the most important.

I am who I am, and I've got positives, I've got negatives. Of course, on my LinkedIn profile or when I'm talking to people, I'm always conscientiously trying to make sure that I push out the positive attitudes that I have and try and manage my negative attitudes, right? Some negative attitude could be maybe I fumble a lot or I say, um, a lot, right? So stuff like that, which I'm always conscientiously making sure that the brand that I'm presenting is always positive.

So I think having executives present their brand or think about their brand is very, very important. I really like that. No, I think this is something that is probably like common sense in like the sales world and everything where they are often in front of people. But, you know, coming from like product or engineering or like, you know, other worlds where like you don't think it's important for you to like have a brand presence or so most executives don't even think about this especially like the smaller the company the earlier this right you're working in it's so much more important that like you have this yeah no i'm sorry to interrupt you i was listening when you're saying that i was thinking i'll give you an example it was very interesting it was quite a few years ago um so like i said i'm in sales we had gone to meet um our customer and our customers are is a you know, top 10 Fortune 500 company, right?

It's very big. So I got to meet our customer, and I'd taken my operations VP with me. So the VP of operations, he's a leader, because this was going to be a technical discussion, right? So I can talk at the high level, but I need my operations lead to talk the technical stuff.

And then, you know, he brought a couple of his other operation people too. When I go in to the meetings, now, you know, I've worked with my customer long enough that I know how they dress and all of that. So I'm not in a student tie. I'm well-dressed, but I'm, you know, with a jacket and maybe a sweater and jeans, right, and nice shoes on.

He came in just as if he, you know, walked out of his house, you know, just casually, right, like, oh, okay, I don't want to say anything. That's fine. And then we talked. He presented well.

All of that was fine. But then, actually, one, he came in pretty late to the meeting. He was local to the meeting. He came pretty late.

Our discussions were already happening. And coming in late is perfectly fine. Right. But when you come in late, you go take the seat that's closest to you.

He didn't. He walked all the way across the room and sat between me and the customer as we're talking. I'm like, what is happening? What else could go wrong here?

So that's fine, right? We have the conversation and that keeps going on. We finish the conversation. We say our goodbyes.

We walk out. And as soon as we walk out of the door, he takes out a cigarette and starts smoking it. And I'm like, I think we should not be doing this. Let's go somewhere else.

And unfortunately, as those words were coming out, the people we were talking to at the customer walk out at the same time. And again, it's another place. Like, why? right timing was off everywhere so and so that's where I think you're very right right I mean for although I'm an engineer by education right I've got a master's and worked for the longest time in operations but I think inside I've been a salesperson I've been a people person kind of all my life I just fell into engineering because you know back to original conversation that's the path I took but I'm a salesperson and people internally so for me it comes is common sense, right?

Don't do this, do that. Don't do this, do that. But for him, you know, unfortunately, very smart person technically. So, you know, technically he was able to present everything well, but socially he needed guidance, right?

And so there were a lot of wrong things that happened, but that's exactly, you know, what you were saying, right? So you have to make sure that you put yourself in the other person's shoe always, whether it's personal or your business, you put yourself in the other person's shoes, whether it's a customer's shoes or my shoes when we're there, and say hey I walking into the door I want to be as quiet as possible Let me find the closest seat right so I don bother them Or hey we walked out of this office you know to each his own If you want to smoke, that's perfectly well, but let's do it privately somewhere else, right?

Let's not spend too much time. So those are things I think you've got to really do is put yourself in the other person's shoes and see what the perception of this individual would be if they were doing those same things. But executives having an understanding of the brand becomes very important. No, I appreciate you sharing that story.

That was actually really good. And you were kind enough to tell me that being late is okay or doing that is okay. Maybe that's not okay. I mean, I think I completely see how you are a very people person.

But I think the executive brand part of it, or at least what people perceive of you and all these micro actions, all makes significant impact on every conversation. like you know whether it's internal especially when it's external right so um one other thing which is kind of like going back to um your idea of starting this show for like people who are like more younger or so tell tell me more about like there is a perception that like you know it's like yeah i've done nothing much in my life i'm still in my 20s like maybe i should be building more substance and less worrying about like my brand or my presence or anything like that And while, I mean, I personally agree on the idea that, like, you know, people who are younger should be focusing on substance, trying to, like, put their reps in that way.

But what's your thoughts on that? And, like, how should they be presenting themselves and, like, building that brand so that they are setting these compounding things earlier in their career? Yeah, so I think the thing I'm always biggest upon, and I've said this numerous times, I think so far, it's just being authentic, right? So you have to be authentic, irrespective of if this is your first in your job or you've been a veteran in that industry for 23 years.

You have to be authentic. So you have to make sure that your brand, that is your brand. You know, you are who you are. you can't really fake a brand because, again, that originality disappears and people will figure it out.

But to your point, you have to build a brand or build credibility. It takes time for people to really realize who you are. But you've got to start with being authentic. So I wouldn't recommend someone who's early on in their career to say, you know what?

I want to be like Steve Jobs. I'll go in with a turtleneck every day. Or I want to have a loud laugh every time I laugh so people know I'm there. You can't do that.

So you just have to be authentic. But I think a couple of things that you have to do, irrespective of where you are, you're early on in your career or you're later on, is I think you have to be a person who's willing to learn. Whether you're early on, that's the brand that you always have to show. whether you're an individual contributor or you're the CEO of that business, showing that you're always willing to learn, I think, is an attribute that will always play positive in your brand.

And it will also play positive in how fast you're growing in whatever industry you're in. So even if that's not an authentic part of who you are, that is one thing I think that people, I wouldn't say fake it, right, because you still have to really learn. But it's an attribute that you would really have to grow into. It's trying to be a learner all the time.

So building brand early is important. But I think really brand comes from age, right? It's like a fine wine. You taste it and you know, oh, yeah, this is 10 years.

And this is the, I'm not a wine drinker, but these are the notes. and this is the barrel it was all that, right? So it's a brand is kind of like that, right? So it comes with time where now when people see me and I'm sure it's the same with you, right?

They'll know, right, this is Anand, right? I'm 99% sure when I meet him, when I talk to him, when I get emails from him or I'm in a program with him, these are the things I can expect of him because they've known me. Whereas if you're early on in your career, that may not be the case, right? But I would say focus towards being authentic and always learning.

Keep making sure those two attributes are there as part of your brand. The rest of it, you've got to tweak and learn as you grow. Your brand is always changing. Hopefully, it's always improving.

So you're always just gradually tweaking your brand and improving it. Again, going back to learning, right? You're learning and growing and improving yourself. So that's probably my long answer to that question that you had.

No, this is great. I mean, I think you've given a good idea of what mindset to have. But I want to finish off with like one last thought or like more of a tactical thing is like, what are these ways in which someone can express themselves or, you know, establish their brand? Like to say, authentically, I'm good at conversations with people.

I care a lot about, let's say, product management, or I care so much about this technology, new technology that came up. I care about this. And so now I need to express this, and I need to put myself out there in different channels expressing my interest in this. What are the different, very tactical, right?

Here is like, go do this, go do that kind of suggestions. What would you suggest for people, especially earlier in the career? Yeah, so I think... One is, especially through social media nowadays, right, is be very active on LinkedIn.

If we're talking about professional brands, right, be very, and if we're talking about personal brands, then be very active on Facebook, right, whatever that may be. But if we're talking specifically about professional brands, I would say be very active on LinkedIn in areas that you're passionate about, whether it's AI or construction or space technology, whatever, be very, very active on LinkedIn. So when a person sees an article and it's assigned to you as and you may not have to have written the article, but it's just something that you shared.

They understand, oh, it looks like, you know, Arjun is passionate about sustainability because a lot of the things that he's talking about. So I think using these social media platforms to kind of share your passion is one avenue of kind of building that brand and building that visibility into that brand. And then internally, if you're in a company, in an organization, I would say, and especially if you're early on in your career, is raise your hand a lot, right? So, hey, if there's an exciting opportunity to go do something new, put your hand up.

Go do that, right? And, of course, you've got to make sure that it's in your core competency, right? If you've got to go build an AI system on Bitcoin, I have no idea what that means. I can't raise my hand because now you're negative brand building.

Now people are like, oh, Arun's going to raise his hand for everything, right? So you've got to make sure that there's some core competency there when you raise your hand. But raise your hand for things that you feel you can go deliver on. Do not be scared to do that.

Because, again, when you raise your hand and you deliver, that's another brand that you're building, is that I can rely on Anand to go deliver, right? So let me go talk to him about doing this. Or raise your hand if you have a problem, if you have an issue, right? Because again, and not only raise your hand with an issue, but raise your hand with an issue and then provide a solution to it, right?

Saying, hey, I'm seeing that we're not doing this or this is a market we're not covering, but maybe this is one way that we could look at it, right? So those are probably two ideas of how to kind of go about building a brand, a positive brand, is again, be very active in things you're passionate about on social media, and then volunteer for activities that's within your core competency. And probably a third thing, which is question things, right? Question things and provide solutions.

I think this is really great. And thanks for paraphrasing that for me as well. The whole idea of being involved, volunteer, and ask questions is a great tactical takeaways for people earlier in their career to build their brand um in general like engage right like engaging with the things that you're talking about i really love that and this was a pleasure talking to you i think this was like a great conversation uh on the topic of like executive brand building both uh for people who are higher up in their career and are not really like paying attention to it as well as like people earlier in their career who could be like starting as early as their first job.

Thanks so much Anand. It was a pleasure talking to you. No, thank you Arjun. Thanks for your time.

It was a pleasure.