138. Why Most Teams Are Using AI Completely Wrong w/ Fred Schwark

Speaker A: My lovely people, welcome to another fabulous episode of the B2B Sales Trends podcast. Now, AI is everywhere in sales right now. Everyone's talking about it, everyone's using it. Well, not everyone's using it, but everybody should be using it. But when you actually look a little bit closer, uh, to the topic, most teams are using it to do more activity, which is not necessarily better selling and not really. The is, uh, doing what it's supposed to do. And that's where things get really interesting. On the B2B Sales Trends Podcast, we give you a sneak peek into the strategies of the world's best CROs and go to market leaders, the systems, the playbooks they are using so you don't have to figure it out the hard way. So if you want to increase win rates, shorten sales cycles, and learn from the best in B2B selling, this podcast is for you. So today we are getting into how AI actually fits into the sales process and how the best teams are, uh, using it to improve performance, not to replace sellers. My guest today, and I'm super pleased to have Fred Schwarz with me today. Fred is the Chief Growth Officer at Cordero. Fred, welcome to the B2B Sales Trends Podcast.

Speaker B: Thanks Harry. Great to be here with you, Fred.

Speaker A: Give us a little bit of context about your role and your background if

Speaker B: you would appreciate being on the podcast. Big fan. Um, I watch your podcast quite often and it's, uh, great to be a part of it now. My name is Fred. I'm, um, based here in New York. I'm the Chief Growth Officer at Coderio. Coderio is a, um, IT services company focusing on helping customers modernize their infrastructure to be AI ready. And as a Chief Growth officer, I like the title Chief Growth Officer, by the way, instead of Chief Revenue Officer. Um, uh, it's about helping customers grow in, uh, their own and solving their own problems, helping their customers out. And as a part of this organization, we do exactly that. Uh, uh, in our team we've got marketing, we've got sales, we've got operations, and so we've got a great team that's focused squarely on helping customers get better. So thanks for having us.

Speaker A: Ah, pleasure to have you. Thank you for making time. Now you're leading a growth inside, uh, the company, and hence the title. And the company is scaling super, super quickly and fast and expanding into all sorts of new different markets, which is fabulous. Now share with the audience. What does your sales motion look like today? If you wouldn't mind.

Speaker B: It's really interesting. When I first Joined Coderio. Uh, it was really an activity driven culture which in most senses you would say this is exactly what we should be doing is driving, uh, activity driving. You know, the number of emails, number of phone calls, number of outreaches, all of those type of things to fill the top of the funnel. And I don't know about you, but I receive, it seems like thousands of outreach emails a day, um, driving into my inbox. And the one thing that I observed over the last few years is it's really missing that value quantification model. So I've been changing our sales motion or sales, um, activities from this real activity based culture to a, a value quantification model where um, we create a value proposition framework, um, that helps to quantify your business impact, our business impact on them. Um, and then we use our teams to help solve those complex problems that customers are looking for. And we've seen a real big success rate in that. Go figure, right? Um, customers want to know how what you're selling is bringing them value as opposed to the uh, I'll use a kind of a phrase I've heard recently, the AI slop of email is just being an activity driven culture.

Speaker A: Thank you for making this clear and I'd love to learn more about um, that model that you have shared and we'll get back to that um, later on in the interview. Uh, but let's start with the fact that there's a lot happening on AI. It's everywhere. There's countless of webinars and infos and, and it's everywhere. And I get the sense, especially the customers we are talking to is a lot of them are trying to figure out how does what fit for me. Right. Uh, because not everything, everybody or everything fits for everyone shall I say. Right. So there is a lot happening uh, right now in AI, especially how sellers operate day to day. Now what are you seeing that has changed most in how sales teams engage with customers?

Speaker B: Well you know, for me it's about, and what our sellers are saying is, is about the, the speed to which they're getting insights. Um, you know sellers, there's no excuse for being unprepared. It's probably the best answer. They, you know, AI allows those sellers to um, basically modernize their approach to analyzing customer data instantly. Um, and, and be prepared for what they're you know, engaging with in customers. I mean, you know, when I log in in the morning and I'm, I know who I'm going to be talking to that day from a customer perspective, I know exactly what is on the key aspect of uh, of their respective news, uh, what they're working on from a uh, a perspective of uh, new uh, products that are released or whatnot. And so I am prepared 100% to talk to that customer. Um, although it's caused a bunch of noise with some of the generic scripts that you'll see coming out of some of the AI models that just again that, that AI slop is something that you got to work through when you're talking into your messaging.

Speaker A: So and, and to that point I feel there is a lot of tension there, a lot of tension between how do we scale this? And a certain level of being authentic in a way. Right. That, that authenticity. Now you can reach more people more than ever. You can do it faster. But it doesn't necessarily mean better. Better conversation, more customized, uh, more what's important for m. Me versus as you refer to it as the AI slob. How do you, how do you think about getting that balance right? Is there something you can share with the audience about how do you balance that scale and authenticity?

Speaker B: I break it into two things. I mean AI is for research and the human is for delivery. Um, you know I just talked earlier about leveraging AI to help you be better prepared for, for insights.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But it's that interaction on a human to human level that will help. Um, you know, certainly we help or uh, we use AI to help us with finding that hook.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, that, that insight that uh, that, that uh, you know, how we can help you specifically, you know, solve a problem. Um, but the conversation needs to be 100% human. Um, and I feel that in a lot of ways we're missing the trust factor, especially in B2B sales. Specifically in B2B sales. The trust factor is a massive, massive thing that um, makes and helps companies be very successful. And so here at Coderio, we're doing everything we possibly can to make sure that we've got that human interaction. And instead of focusing all effort on outbound, um, email campaigns and text message, all that type of stuff, and squarely focusing on the opposite end of the spectrum, really engaging with trust, working with our existing networks, building um, that human to human, uh, mindset and leveraging AI to help us with that. But really getting back to the high end human uh, um aspect of it because scale is a um, scaling in this way is a trap without authenticity.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and I really like what you, what you uh, shared about the, the fact that AI is for research and the human is for delivery. I mean even on the most simple way of using AI, Claude or ChatGPT or you know, anything like that, you, you ask it a question, it gives you the instruction you still have to do it, you do still have to execute it. So all the knowledge in the world, I always split it into two things. The, the knowledge that you receive as the what I have to do. I get that intellectually, I get it in my head and it's all good, wonderful. But the uh, how is the execution piece, that behavioral level, that skill level? I think that's what people really need to be good at. Because AI also in my opinion, will give them obviously more time. It frees up a lot of time to do what a seller is supposed to do. What's, what's your take on that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it, you know, the AI aspect, uh, AI in our sales process is really the augmentation layer. I think of it as augmenting as opposed to, uh, replacing. And I think that's a key aspect that leaders need to take out of this. Um, it shouldn't be at the front and it shouldn't be at the back. It should be as a tool to help those sellers synthesize complex info and show up as subject matter experts from a human to human layer. And I think ultimately that is what drives true authenticity, drives trust, drives relationships, and ultimately helps in the B2B practice where there's a lot of lacking in that today. And um, you know, and so now, you know, as opposed, when I go and look for a good seller, I look for somebody that, who can connect on a human level.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I can teach them the AI stuff and how to use it, how to leverage that, how to grow from that. But being able to connect on that human level is the difference maker.

Speaker A: So important. So important. Couldn't agree more with you. And um, and obviously we can't replace the interaction. Right. The customer interaction. And I know you're using AI to improve the seller before that interaction actually happens. Now how does that work in practice? What has worked for you and your organization?

Speaker B: Uh, you know, listen, as organizations get more and more flat, um, as organizations um, are putting more and more on top of the sales manager, it's really hard to have active coaching sessions from a human to human level. And so we leverage simulated ah, role play. So our sales reps will pitch AI to an AI Persona, um, like a skeptical CFO or a procurement officer or a, you know, business unit owner. And they'll practice overcoming those objections, um, regarding price or you know, a legal objection or you Know, value proposition. Objection. Something like that. And it provides a safe environment for them to practice and fail, um, and then change their tactics accordingly. So it's, it's cool. It's, it's really interesting on how to do that. I mean, I've, I've practiced, um, you know, uh, so I'm, I like to fly. I'm a private pilot. And so I've practiced simulated conversations with air traffic control coming in and out of an airport before I even, you know, on my way. And driving in a car. Right. Like, and I'm practicing with the AI. So your AI models, these AI, uh, Personas that you have, they can really help you practice those, um, any of those type of skills. And this is one of them that we help sellers to be able to practice.

Speaker A: We are using in our process also, uh, AI skill practice. And it's a great way of doing it. I, I'm, I'm fully with you. And uh, it's great to like everything in AI you get out what you put in, right. As long as you customize it to your customers, Personas, to the objections that they have to the questions that the sellers need to ask and so forth. So that's really good for that. It's really good. Now, linking back to what we said earlier, connecting on a human level, that's what the seller really needs to do. How do you help them to practice that? Because that surely can't be done with, uh, an AI model. Or can it? I don't know.

Speaker B: Obviously, any of these shortcuts that, uh, are interjected into the system sometimes lead to price concessions, which is definitely not an outcome that I want. Um, but we use, uh, and we leverage AI and M, the meeting transcripts and everything to identify missed value signals. So what I mean by that is, um, listen. I can try to listen as intently as possible, and I'm decent with memory, but. But I miss stuff. You miss stuff. Like, but the meeting transcript does not miss anything. And so, you know, if we use those value signals, you know, after, you know, we're able to strengthen, um, curiosity in the sales rep because it pings them and says, hey, you missed something here. Right? And it basically switches the mind during those conversations to be really actively listening rather than just wanting to talk, which a lot of sales reps love talking, obviously. Um, but, you know, it's uh, it's, it's, it's that switching that I, that I really enjoy about this. I'm not, you know, uh, pen and paper, like, actively trying to write down every word That I hear and just thinking about my next statement. It's, I'm actively listening and again that drives up, you know, my, my overall proposition. And that's the human to human interaction that builds trust in a relationship. Oh, he's actively listening to what I'm asking as opposed to just reading a script or waiting for the next question or waiting to ask me for that scope of work or that contract to be signed.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So it's a big difference there and I think that helps strengthen those sales reps, um, you know, core capabilities that uh, that we're really looking for.

Speaker A: This is interesting. So um, you mentioned missed value signals. Obviously that's now the activity post a call. That intelligence that we gain after a customer meeting or even after a practice uh, for the sake of it. Right. Um, there is another layer. So there's feedback, there's coaching, there's insights that we're getting, there's those pointers, these signals that you've mentioned. Are there any secrets that you, you can share with the audience uh, for of how to use that really to develop the team? Because, and, and maybe I'll put a little bit of more context on it. A lot of the times when people using it, they get the coaching report, they're reading it through and it's very subjective then. Right, right. Okay, I take it on board or I cannot and it's really my shout then if I change anything in the next conversation, uh, is there another layer of coaching that is necessary uh, to do that or can we completely rely on AI, ah coaching here during the

Speaker B: actual conversation that's happening? There's an aspect of AI coaching like to help identify, like I said, the value insights or the batna or what is the next question to help because of the insight. Talked a little bit about that. But then there's an aspect of post call that I really like. Um, from a CGO perspective, from my perspective on how we identify enablement changes, maybe there's something that we missed in terms of enabling a sales rep um, to turn to more evidence based um, reasoning as an evidence based questions value um based frameworks and that they're missing and we're seeing trends in a bunch of our sales reps in one case. So like um, and I don't know if I'm explaining this perfectly but like being able to take that intelligence and that coaching and start to aggregate it at the CRO CGO level really gives you um, insights as to what is landing, what's not landing. Is it an enablement issue? Is it A marketing issue, Is it a, is a sales strategy issue? That what I think is, I think that is a key aspect that I love being able to see that at the aggregate level.

Speaker A: Yeah. Where do you think leaders get this wrong? Because I, you know, we always talk to leaders and a lot of them are tapping in the dark here and say, you know, uh, everybody tells me to do this and then this and then that and then and they. Where do you see leaders getting this wrong?

Speaker B: Just go to any newspaper that you've uh, you know, online or anywhere and read any corporate 10 uh k recently they treat AI as a headcount reduction tool as opposed to a performance enhancement tool like that is. You know, I see AI as helping my sales rep go from a $1 million a year sales rep to a $2 million a year sales rep.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, I see it as helping drive additional revenue for the organization. I see it as being an aspect of enhancing performance and scale, not as uh, how many sales reps can I get rid of? Do I need an SDR team? Do I need a marketing team anymore? Right. I definitely don't. So you know, from a revenue driving perspective, it always should be about how is this helping you to scale, to get to that next level. And I think that's where a lot of leaders get this wrong.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I fully agree, I fully agree this, you know, it's the ones that will take or you know, be the seller of the future. No doubt they're an expert in using it and they're using the skills and behaviors on that conversation level, but not on an average sort of medium. They have to be elite. Right. Because the same goes if we are the seller side is tapping into AI so much like you have uh, share than the front part of the journey. So does the buyer. Uh, you know, they're much more informed. They know everything about you, your product and what you can bring to the table. So if you can, if sellers are turning up with the same or boring stuff, you'll have an issue. Right.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. And you know, just in the same way that you know, our sellers are leveraging this to get smarter, to get more insights, the buyer is so much more informed about you and what you can deliver. I think that is something that uh, again, when you go back to the scale, the very first question you asked me, like, you know, it's why we're transitioning from an activity, you know, just slam out a bunch of emails type of culture to a value based customer. It's the same way you've got to meet the customer where they are, when they're looking at your website, they're doing a, you know, uh, asking ChatGPT about your company, like all of those. You've got to be able to interact them where they are, you know, when they're there and in the manner in which they want to communicate. And all of that is just going to help drive more revenue for you and ultimately help the customer, help the customer to extract exactly what, um, you know, value you and your company can deliver to them. I much rather be in a position, um, that I am delivering value for a customer and a customer sees that value than just, you know, overpowering a customer to sigh a scope of work with me that is not seeing all the value and it's just not a good fit. And I think customers and businesses and shareholders alike are starting to understand that more and more today than they ever have in the past to that point.

Speaker A: You know, one of the big things, in my opinion that's changed in B2B selling is obviously, and that's a well documented fact actually, is that there are more and more stakeholders out there in anybody's sales process. Okay, great, we know that. But what has changed also is this point of every stakeholder has to justify their decisions and the outcomes of that decision internally. So if the sellers can help them, uh, depending on who the stakeholder is, is a financial stakeholder, is it, you know, technical stakeholder, whatever, they have to help them to make sure they have everything they need to be able to justify their decisions internally and highlight and demonstrate the outcomes that decision have created. And that's a challenge for us as

Speaker B: the, you know, being able to demonstrate, communicate value, validate and be able to, um, transmit the value framework to the internal Personas at our customer. AI is helping us to be able to tailor that message exactly in the Persona that we're looking for in the past. Ah, and some of your listeners probably listen to a bunch of my stuff on financial literacy and financial fluency. I've had to teach sellers how to sell to the cfo, how to sell to, you know, the controller or the accounting folks that are different mindset than say the procurement officer or the business unit owner. And those days are starting to fall further behind us because AI can help offset that and tailor it. And so you take your framework, you take your value proposition, you take, you, you know, leverage AI to augment that messaging so it resonates with a buyer Persona or, you know, all the various stakeholders that are part of the decision Making process. And I think the interesting thing is going to be the next level is how are you doing that for the agent.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Um, or the, the agentic person. The agentic um, solution that's on the other side that's making the decision. I can't wait for that to happen. It's slowly in some cases but you know, part of that workflow management is going to be an interesting aspect when it comes to the next few years of, of uh, B2B selling.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Um, let's take a look at one of your strongest sellers. Um, obviously I don't know who that is, but uh, um, let's take a look at him or ah, her. Somebody who really is using AI really well and somebody who's also delivering on that human level, ah, sensationally. What are they doing differently to the average performer?

Speaker B: Uh, deep discovery. And they are leveraging AI to again arrive fully prepared. They know the 10k reports, the financial reporting. Um, they know competitor moves, um, both competitors to us and competitors to them, to the customer and customer. And they're able to be even more preparedly human and consultative. Right. In nature. Right. Um, they practice with uh, an AI agent beforehand, um, to see what are the key uh, objections that may be, that may come up. They are tailoring the value framework so that it matches exactly what um, this customer can extract from what Coderio can provide to them. Um, they are identifying the Personas within the business that are decision makers. They know their buying intent, whether or not it's the right time to push for the sale today. Or is it a week from now based on, you know, market dynamics? Um, they know, uh, you know, based on discovery questions, what is the, the batna of the, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement for this particular case? And all of those insights are being delivered to the seller at the time that they are, they need it right during the conversation, right before the conversation so they can prepare and be fully human. And that is what my bestseller is doing today. That I think is something that every CRO, every CJO out there, every VP of Sales needs to be looking at their sellers and say, can they do this? Can they do that level of AI augmentation and layering so that they come prepared to be fully human.

Speaker A: Love it. Fred, My last question in every podcast is always the same, uh, which is what in your opinion are the top three skills and behaviors that define top B2B sellers nowadays? And put them in an order of importance for me, the most important, second and third.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, um, if, if some of Your listeners have worked with me in the past. They know that. They probably know exactly what I'm going to say. The first one is, and I already talked about it, radical preparation. I think that's number one. You know, be prepared in everything that you do and show up, um, buttoned up with uh, the right mindset, the right energy and um, and, and, and being sharp for your customer because they deserve it. The second is objection handling and objection resilience in selling like you're, you are going to hear no, you're going to hear objections. And so I think objection. Resilience is probably number two for me. And then uh, the number, the third one is problem solving, holistic problem solving, um, and being able to distill all of the inputs that you're receiving during a conversation with a customer and be able to holistically solve that problem for that customer. That's what defines some of the top B2B salespeople today. Um, preparation, resilience, problem solving. Um, and if we take those, these ways and I drive that home with my sellers every day, um, we can, you know, incrementally be better and better than than yesterday.

Speaker A: Fred, great insight. Thank you for uh, contributing to the collective pool of knowledge. We uh, appreciate it, our listeners will appreciate it. Thank you for taking the time and uh, sharing these wonderful insights and your thought leadership.

Speaker B: Thank you, thank you so much Ari. Appreciate it, appreciate your time.

Speaker A: My lovely people. AI doesn't make you a better seller, but if you use it in the right way, it gives you better prepared reps, better feedback and a clearer view of actually what's happening. And combined with your human behaviors and skills, the ones that built the trust with the clients and customers and prospects, that combination is your secret superpower. If you got value from this episode, follow uh the show, uh, subscribe on YouTube and uh, wherever you get your podcasts from, check out our uh, brand new tool as well, my lovely people. It's called the outcome based selling revenue accelerator. If you're curious about, about how much revenue your business might be leaving on the table and would like to personalize plan to recover it, you can find it in the link in the description box below. And of course also if you want to get a level deeper, uh, we've also included in the show notes a short white paper called you're entering the deal too late, which is built on patterns we're seeing across sales teams and real deal deals in the market. Until the next time, my lovely people, take care of yourself, your loved ones and of course you'll be to be customers. Bye. Bye.