What I Wish I'd Known About Sales With Martin Knowles

Speaker A: Foreign. M. And welcome to what I wish I'd known about sales, the show where we learn all about the highs, lows and lessons from the front lines of selling. And today I'm joined by Martin Knowles, founder of Sales Untangled and author of Untangle your sales. Martin describes himself as the accidental salesman because like many people, he never intended to build a career in sales. Martin went on to become a sales director, leading large teams before launching Sales Untangled to help businesses build customer focused, high performing sales cultures. In this episode, we're going to discuss why so many people still dislike sales, what customer focused selling really looks like, how businesses can build sustainable growth, and the lessons Martin wishes he'd known much earlier in his own sales career. So welcome to the show, Martin.

Speaker B: Thank you. Nice to be here.

Speaker A: Good stuff, right? Um, so we'll get straight into the questions. You've obviously described yourself as the accidental salesman. Uh, I know you thought maybe it wasn't for you at the start of your career. So what was it about sales that you disliked when at uh, the start of your career?

Speaker B: I think it was, I think it goes back before the start of my career. And so my first experience of sales was those people coming to your house to sell you things that you, that your parents felt really uncomfortable about. And you know, that, that emotional worry that it created for knowing that somebody's coming back in a week's time and asking you for money that maybe you can't afford. Um, and so I, I think it was that, that was my perception of sales. It was, it was the direct one to one experience. Um, but you didn't really want to say no and didn't really want to upset people, but maybe didn't really want the good that was on offer. And that was what I experienced before I then went and ended up almost by accident in a sales job.

Speaker A: Yeah. So what was the kind of point that you realized that sales wasn't kind of what you thought it was? Was it before you got a sales job or was there, was there like a kind of like a switch that flicked at a, um, certain point?

Speaker B: Maybe there was a switch, but it was after I accidentally fell into a sales job. So as a graduate I was applying for jobs. No surprise. I was applying for jobs with breweries and, uh, following my hobby at the time. And I, uh, got a job with a brewery and hoped I was going to go into an operational management job, you know, looking after pubs and managing teams of people and refurbishing all that sort of stuff. And then when I joined the business. He said, oh no, no, no, your first job's going to have to be a sales rep. And so then I ended up, when the first proper job came around after the graduate program, I ended up as a sales rep. And so credit to the company, I think they found a job that suited me. Uh, and I got into that job and did really, really well very quickly and suddenly thought, actually this is, it's not as difficult as it seems. You go out and you meet relationships with people and you find new customers and you offer them the deals that they want to have. And suddenly it felt, you know, it fell into place. So I think that was the, the first switch was flicked and I thought actually no, this can be much more enjoyable than I thought it was. Uh, it was potentially might have been.

Speaker A: And also obviously selling a product that people really want.

Speaker B: Yeah. In that example of, uh, course that helps, doesn't it? And nobody's ever disappointed to see the brewery salesman turn up. So um, yes, that does make it a little easier. And I think to be fair, I was naive and inexperienced and I did well because I drove further and worked longer than other people, not because I was a great salesperson. And training, really, sales training for me really came later in my career probably when I joined Britvic and they were utterly dedicated to training. Part of my job then was managing a team. So I was part of the training hierarchy of instilling in people the way to handle calls, the way to prepare, the way to follow up, how to ask questions, all of that stuff. And so it was really later on that I actually started to develop some, some proper skill at it rather than just enthusiasm and uh, and a willingness to, to make the long drives.

Speaker A: Yeah. So do you think, uh, a lot of people still have that outdated perception? You know, you talked about the kind of the. I mean you don't see it quite so much now these days with you knocking on doors quite so much. But you know, is there an outdated perception of, of what good sales looks like, do you think?

Speaker B: I think there is. And the tragedy is it's not outdated. You know, a lot of people, um, that I think the, the economics of selling and you know, the cost of employing people has changed the way that, the amount of face to face stuff that's done. Um, so that, that has changed, uh, changed industry models. But an awful lot of people don't like selling. And I, I saw a, uh, some stats from a report that pipedrive did this big CRM company and they'd done just earlier this year and um, what did they say in the UK? 21 of people said they trust sales professionals and 43% of people don't. And you know, so it's not outdated is it? That's today's perception that people still. There is a trust, trust problem in the industry. Um, and I don't think that reflects the proportion of people who are doing it well and the proportion are doing it badly. But inevitably you know, you have one bad experience in 10 and you remember the bad one and you shout about the bad one. Um, so sadly yes, people do still sell in an aggressive, pushy, clumsy way and it creates a bad, bad perception of the industry.

Speaker A: And um, why, why do you think so many people go down, choose to go down that route? That ah, kind of forceful, say almost aggressive way of, of selling the.

Speaker B: I, I think it probably is a little bit of a lack of knowledge but some people I think genuinely believe if you put, if only you pushed harder then you get better results. And so actually we posted not so long ago a coup ago about that. You know that expression about I want a hungry sales team. What is that supposed to even mean? If you had a hungry dog, you're just going to get an aggressive angry dog. So why would you not just treat it well and feed it well? And uh, yet still that perception uh, exists within a sales environment. You don't hear people saying I want a hungry marketing team, I want a hungry logistics team. It's just sales. And there's a sense that if you treat them lean and keep them mean, that uh, treat them mean, keep them lean that you might get different results. And I just don't think that uh, I think for most industry sectors now and most businesses that's outdated but, but some people still believe that's the way to do it. If only if we just up activity levels, if we just push a bit hard or if we just get people who won't accept no, then we'll get more business. And I'm not, I'm m not confident that is the case in MO mostly.

Speaker A: So it's obviously a culture issue in a lot of businesses and how do you go about beginning to. Well I suppose how, how do you go about beginning to fix that? But also how do you, how do you kind of get in in the first place?

Speaker B: Well it's an interesting one, isn't it? In a sense it's almost not my job to fix it. So if there is a prevailing culture of a business that we just want to be aggressive and push and push our customers to the Limit. People are entitled to take that approach. And it's not for me to say it's wrong or to change it. Um, if you're asking me about the clients we work with, I think we probably just don't attract those sorts of cl. So we rarely have to have that sort of, that sort of pushback. But I think sometimes there is a. If you think about failing sales teams or failing salespeople and reported by, let's say a CEO or a head of a business who says, my sales team isn't delivering, they're not doing what I expect them to do, they're not hitting the numbers I expect them to do. I think that is usually expressed by somebody who thinks it's the sales team that's a problem. My experience of it is, I would say I'd go as far as saying nine times out of 10, it's either a strategy problem or it's a leadership problem. And it's symptom. One of the symptoms is that the sales results are not what you want to get. So then sometimes we do have to have that sort of subtle conversation that says, but what if leadership changed? What about, what if the briefing changed? What if the way that sales, interactive marketing or the support you got from other functions changed? And how, how, how could you reshape the business around the customer experience or customer delivery in a way that then made your sales team look more effective? So there is a bit of unraveling and a bit of unpicking of those things, and I wouldn't dream to take it head on. You know, people are entitled to the sales culture they want to build, the sales culture they want to create. But sometimes there is a subtlety of if you want different results, maybe you can try a different, different route to getting them.

Speaker A: Yeah, obviously, Martin, you're the author of Untangle your Sales. So is that kind of the approach then? Is that how you, how you kind of go in our approach when you're talking to businesses?

Speaker B: Yeah, our approach, uh, an expression we often use, is about sustainable selling. So our approach is very much about building relationships with customers, supporting customers, understanding the issues and challenges they've got. Which brings you back to questioning techniques and how you communicate with custom. And so that is our preferred and recommended approach. And we think there's a long term value for selling organizations in building those relationships where referrals work and repeat business work. We think it helps you build an organization over time, both in terms of your sales and your customer base and in terms of the people that you've got internally and the relationships and skill that you're building in them. So for us that's the model we use. It doesn't mean other people have got it wrong. If you're going to wham bam, um, I'm going to do a deal and walk away. Do a deal, walk away. There are other industries and sectors that work fine like that. So we're not knocking it. Um, but for us, yeah, we'd certainly go for the long term value as m much. Ah, it's probably our, that sort of key account. Your long term relationship is probably more where we'd operate.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I mean for any business, retention generally speaking is super important. Right. So maybe that is the right approach. Um, I was just going to say sales and sustainability, they're not necessarily two things that people would naturally put together. Um, your uh, B Corp, how has that influenced the way that you think about sales? Or is that uh, like is that a consequence of how you think about sales?

Speaker B: It's an interesting question. If you, if you talk to you know, sustainability zealots, they would, you know there is a school of thought that says um, even, even growth, you know, every country is striving for GDP growth and how can you offset GDP growth against sustainability? Because you can't keep mining more and more resources. But I honestly do think that's a bit more for the zealots than for um, the real world. And B Corp is a movement. It's a movement of businesses that operate for profit. We're not not for profits or charities. We are for profit businesses. And it's not so much about saying that growth is a bad thing. It's saying what do you achieve along the way of that growth? So how do you treat your people? How do you respect the environment? What can you do for your business community? Your custom, you work with them. And it's much more about, so for us it's more about a sort of partnership and collaboration approach rather than it's about saying no growth, growth is bad. And, and you, if you sell more, you're, you're, you're evil. So no, I think it's just a sort of, it's a more collaborative approach

Speaker A: to things and obviously um, kind of sustainability and growth targets, they can coexist.

Speaker B: I, I would say definitely. And there's so much evidence that businesses that have got a clear purpose or clearly stated pur. Our clear sustainability model, um, uh, are outperforming average businesses. So the last stat I saw was that B Corps in the UK have got a growth Rate of seven times the growth rate of your average SME business in the uk. So they're absolutely not incompatible. Actually businesses are able to state clearly, these are the groups we're working with, these are the people we're helping, these are the customer, um, problems or client problems we're solving. Those businesses are outperforming. So I think that clarity and focus actually helps a business rather than you having to think, well, should I, should I worry about maybe I have to be soft on growth because, you know, because we're doing things the right way. I really don't think that it's not an either or choice. I really don't believe that.

Speaker A: Yeah, that is, that is an amazing stat. So I suppose that kind of brings me on to leadership because obviously you kind of have to set the visions. You spent years as a sales director, uh, before founding Sales Untangled. What did you learn about leadership? Um, kind of throughout your journey that surprised you the most?

Speaker B: You know, I think the thing that, probably the thing that surprised me the most about that journey was, um, that I got. I uh, you know, it probably took me 20 years, for example, to be, to be a sales director. Um, and I got to the job of sales director and thought, is this it? It wasn't as exciting as I thought it was going to be. And I remember back to a good, good friend of mine who I'd worked with earlier in my career who said the best job I ever had was being a national account manager. And if you think of typically how those organizations run, you're part of a big is possible. You have a real crack when you get to the office and a lot of that gets lost when you're with a, uh, in a more strategic leadership job. For sure you have a bigger impact, bigger influence on say the operating team or the operating board. But you're often m removed from the customer, you're a step further away from the customer. Your, um, expectations on you may be more about process and about um, politics than they are about just finding customer problems and fixing them. So for me that was always something that was missing. It was a really interesting uh, experience to get to that sort of job and say, you know what, what I really love doing is working with customers and finding solutions to problems. And it was able to do less and that became less of the job. So um, for sure you're facilitating other people and that stepping back is really important. Growing talent, you know, giving people opportunities. I think it was always important to me. Um, but yeah, it was an, it's an Interesting insight into. Oh, uh, the job changes when you get to that level.

Speaker A: Absolutely. But I think it's like that in so many fields though, where people start doing something they really enjoy and then they get kind of further and further removed from it in, in some ways. Uh, obviously if you can, if you can. Yeah, if you can bring on new talent. I suppose it's like the difference between being a football player and a football manager, I guess. Yes. Oh God. After you.

Speaker B: Yeah. Very appropriate time to be having that conversation as we're doing the recording in the middle of the World Cup. But um, yeah. You think some, some football manager as managers are Frustra rated players aren't there and really they'd love to be kicking it but they've got to take that step back and think about how do I get other people to do the kicking in the right way.

Speaker A: Yeah. What would you say the biggest mistake leaders make, uh, when they're trying to improve sales performance then?

Speaker B: I do think it depends obviously on circumstances, but one of the ones that comes around quite often is that one we spoke about earlier, which is believing that if you're not getting the results you want, you've just got to push harder. So, so if you look at the metrics of it, obviously it does work. Uh, if we only did 10% more calls, then in theory you would get 10% more business. And if we only got 10% better conversions, in theory we would get 10% more business. And if you multiply those two things together, the world is your oyster, isn't it? And I think there is that. I think we still see that quite a bit, which is if we push harder then we're going to get better results. And it doesn't start often enough with what are the fundamentals, how do we engage more with customers, how do we maybe go back to figuring out really why is it that customers want to work with this, what is it they value about us, about the relationship, how do we do more of that and how do we do that to uh, find more services that we can sell with them or find m more introductions. So I think people tend to go, that's the push and uh, let's push and let's try and find new and overlook the power of really nurturing uh, and making the best of what you've already got under your nose.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I mean you're kind of untangling sales approach, kind of. What is the process with that? Uh, how does that work when you go into a business?

Speaker B: Uh, obviously the approach varies depending on Scale. So, uh, the job we can do for a business with an experienced sales director is really different from the job we would do with a business with no sales director, maybe no head of sales, and a founder who's built something that they love and they're passionate about. They're very, very different jobs. Um, the untangling bit really probably comes down to the latter. It's more to do with a founder who has built something they're really passionate about, got some success and being able to build a team and get some revenue set up. But I would say in 90% of cases, as far as we, I think last time we measured, uh, it, we reckon 92%, 92% of people or 90% have, um, never been trained properly in selling. It's probably not a surprise. Most likely, 90% have never been trained in finance or in law or whatever, whatever function. So it's a functional specialism that most people haven't experienced. And there comes a time in every business because sales is just so fundamental in terms of being the lifeblood of the business, There just comes that time when an owner has to make a choice about am I the company's best salesperson, the person who knows the product inside out and everybody wants to talk to because I'm the owner, or am I the CEO and I'm going to step back and I need to think about this business and it creates a real tension around. Okay, well, if I'm going to step back, which is usually the right answer, and and over have oversight of the business, I need to recruit a salesperson. I need to start recruiting. How do I build a job description? How do I, if I'm not experienced in selling, how do I even write a job for the right salesperson who might. Is it, is it outbound? Is it inbound? Is it face to face? Is it telesale? And they're all different, you know, they're all different beasts with different metrics. Um, and so, so help. Figuring that out is a really difficult job for an owner to pick through. And inevitably the problem usually isn't. It's not a lack of ideas, it's a lack of clarity. Uh, it's knowing which ideas not to work with and focusing on a few that you do well. And that's the whole thing about the untangled bit is people just get their heads tangled in. I know I need to do stuff with sales, but, um, I don't know where to start with it. And I, you know, pick up. You look on Google and there are a thousand ideas and you talk to all your mates and they've got a thousand ideas, and you can't do a thousand, you need to do a few and do them well. And that's really the premise of Untangle.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. So what is one very simple thing that salespeople could do tomorrow that would make them more effective?

Speaker B: The thing that comes around for us and it sort of shouldn't be top of the list, but it seems to keep coming back to it. We seem to keep coming back to it. It's the power of questions and the ability to ask questions of customers, to understand what really is causing the problems, what are the implications of those problems, which is so important. And from that, figure out what people's motivations are, what's going to be the right solution and tailoring the solution to the problem, uh, rather than approaching things the other way around. So for us, time and time again we see people not really getting to ask the right questions and then maybe not hearing the answer they want and then, um, acting on the feedback that they get from customers. So that for us is probably one thing that would make such a big difference. And as to your question, you can change it tomorrow. You can start asking, asking more questions tomorrow. Um, because most people know that that's what they should be doing and just don't think to do it or don't have the techniques or the confidence maybe to ask and be quiet.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm not sure everybody does know that, uh, judging by, you know, some of the calls I get. But, um, obviously apart from kind of the ask questions side of things, is there, uh, like one piece of advice that you find yourself giving to almost every, every client that you work with?

Speaker B: Oh, I don't know if there's a one size fits all. But again, another thing that comes through I think is the, uh, it is the focus and the clarity. And we're in an era where everything's just getting faster and faster. And as we said earlier, in some cases the pressure to do more and more and AI obviously is just accelerating that. Uh, your potential to get a list of possible clients and contact them one way or the other, which tends to be inbox, spam or whatever other methodology you want to use, LinkedIn messages, the, the potential for doing that is vast. And where you could maybe reach out to 10, 10 customers or 100 customers five or 10 years ago, you can reach out to a thousand or ten thousand. The number's limitless. But the customer recipient end of that is you're just getting more and more of this noise and more and more of this spam. So your likelihood of you cutting through it is even less. And so going back to just figuring out who do I really want to speak to and how can I get to them and maybe just disrupting that a little bit more. Whatever it means, whether mean going back to more face to face or it does mean sending something to somebody or sending a letter which is hard copy and breaks through a little bit, just finding different ways of focusing back on who it really is that you want to speak to.

Speaker A: Uh, uh.

Speaker B: And I think that just, I think it keeps alive the relationships thing which is so important still for so many people. It gives you a point of differentiation, makes you just look different and you've thought about the people you really want to speak to. So I still think, I think one way or another that often still comes back to us is that people assume that but they can do more and reach further and faster and therefore it's the right thing to do. When actually being busy isn't necessarily a successful sales strategy at all, is it? It's m. Maybe more about, you know, busyness isn't necessarily good business. It's how do you uh, focus and do a few things well, which is uh, often is a uh, key part of strategy for us.

Speaker A: Yeah. And obviously AI is kind of encouraging people to do, kind of spread out and uh, you know, go after more people. You know, you can have all of these sequences running etc. Etc. But you think there's something to be said for kind of the personal touch.

Speaker B: You can do all, you can do all of that, you can do all of that stuff and particularly the sort of, sort of um, product you've got. But maybe AI is really central to that. But uh, yes, I do think there's increasing scope for personal um, relationships and finding different ways of doing things. Because it goes right back to the start of our conversation which is this whole thing about sales and perceptions and trust. And people don't trust AI as ah, a. As a selling tool. They don't necessarily. They might use it as a research tool when they're looking to buy, but they want you, they want the human interaction um, and the face to face and looking somebody in the AI. All those things still count for something. Um. So yeah, I think AI can be really helpful in speeding up some of your tools. But when it comes to trust and building trust in relationships, I'm not convinced AI can do that again. There'll be some markets and some products but I'm uh. Not convinced as a catch all that it's a replacement for sales.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think there's obviously an accountability issue and a trust issue. There isn't there?

Speaker B: Uh, absolutely.

Speaker A: That you kind of need to know there's somebody you can go back to. Yeah, yes.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely right. And people need to have that human connectivity and trust, um, across the multiple touch points that they've got. So AI and your website and your email might all play a part in those touch points. But if you. So it is figuring out where does the human touch point come, doesn't it Where Many years ago you go back to my early days. Each of those touch points would have been human. It would have been. And they're not all human now. But being available and helpful and showing up in the right way at the right time is really critical to success.

Speaker A: Absolutely. What's the worst sales advice you've ever heard?

Speaker B: I don't know whether I can. It may be unkind to say this is the worst. But, um, there is an American model and you won't be surprised to hear me say it's American. Um, and I think there's a book and there's a whole learning system around it called getting to know, as in no rather than yes. And the premise of that is if you push hard enough and you get enough nos, you're going to get lots of yeses. Um, and maybe. Maybe in the States. I think it probably is a different culture around selling. Um, maybe again and maybe in some industries it's the right thing to do. But to me, that whole, like, old premise and most people we come across in the uk, if you ask a room of people at random in the UK and say, would you feel comfortable getting as many nos as possible and most people are going to say no, that just doesn't. It just doesn't work for me. It doesn't. It just doesn't fit culturally with. I'm not even sure it fits culturally with our country that you would push people in a way that. Yeah, you get loads of people to say no because then one's going to say yes. So. So that that whole premise made. Feels a bit uncomfortable. Um, I'm sure I get sure it works for them, good for them for creating it, but for me that feels a bit uncomfortable. I wouldn't. I would be cautious advising people to just get. Just chase rejection on the basis that somewhere in there there'll be a. The golden. The golden nugget.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, um, your list is probably not the right list if you're Getting a huge amount of no's. I mean I think there's probably something in that. It gives people confident when, confidence when they get a no. Maybe doesn't discourage them uh, for, from hearing the note. But yeah, to push for the no is, uh, is, is maybe, uh, I don't know, is maybe taking it too far potentially.

Speaker B: Um, probably, probably brilliant sales hunters listening to this call saying, I can't believe you're saying that. If I get a no, it just drives me even harder to go and find somebody else. So saying, I'm not, uh, I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying that for me personally, for typically for the people we're working with, it does feel like um, oversimplified advice.

Speaker A: Yep. And why do some business owners spend years avoiding sales, do you think? Or not really grasping it?

Speaker B: No, no, you're right. It's a, it's a really important question, isn't it? And um, definitely there are some people who shy away from it and it stays tragic because it, it is, it is, it constrains the growth potential of a business and it constrains, it limits the number of people you can help with a genuinely good idea. So it is a really, it's a really disappointing thing to see. I think it's a, I think it's a mix of ah, technique. So going back to what we said about most people not being trained at selling, so there's a sort of technique problem and not maybe I don't know quite how to do it. And that makes me feel like I can't do it, even though, uh, maybe you can. Uh, and I think then there's a whole sort of confidence piece that comes out of that. So we do quite often hear people say to us, surprisingly often, and hear people say to us, I can't sell, sell. And I, I can look at somebody who's started a business from nothing and built it to a million or to 3 million or something and they're telling me I can't, I can't sell. And evidently they can, but something in their head says and I can't do it. So you think, well maybe that is a technique thing. Maybe it's just that nobody's ever validated the techniques they use. And if you spent a bit of time picking through it, you'd say, you know, you're surprisingly good at this bit, but maybe there's something you can polish or do more often around, around something else and maybe build on the things you're good at and find some Other ways. So I think often it's a technique thing that just don't. People just don't know what good is in that granular level of how do you do good selling? Um, and then I think there's a bit of a confidence thing and a bit of a relationship thing that perhaps a lot of us just don't like the rejection. And if it feels like you've got to target somebody and get a yes or a no out of them, you maybe don't want to push hard enough to get the no. But then you may be not asking for the yes. And so then it becomes, well, I just don't really feel confident. And uh, in those conversations and for us, I mean a big mindset shift that we try and help people come around is if you think about, particularly when you're selling and if you just think about targeting and if it gets down to that one to one meeting and you're targeting and the target's in the room, it does feel a bit uncomfortable that you're going to walk out of there with them saying yes or saying no. It's a bit of an awkward relationship maybe for both sides. Um, and so shift, reframing your mindset to think actually it's about helping people. Who, who are the people that I best help? Who does our product or service best help? What's the value it adds? Why does it add that value? What part of it is most, most useful that I think maybe helps refrain people's thinking about the confidence. So, um, so I think it's a bit of both of those things. It's a technique thing. People maybe just not aware of the techniques that they've maybe got or haven't, haven't um, yet developed. And then it's the confidence piece of just feeling like you can have that conversation if you frame it in a way that's about helping people and supporting them rather than, ah, exploiting or extorting them.

Speaker A: Absolutely. So, um, apart from untangle your sales, which sales book, um, would you recommend to salespeople?

Speaker B: Oh my goodness, that's a good question. Uh, right off the top of my head. And you're gonna remember them. Now look at my bookcase. See if we see what I've got on the, on the shelf. It's a bit mainstream now, but I do really like what that a lot of what Daniel Priestley did and for me, uh, personally, the Entrepreneur Revolution, I think was a really powerful book that uh, um, made, made me think differently about business and the environment that we're operating in right now. Um, so I think that was really powerful. A lot of what, a lot of what Daniel Priestly's done has been really helpful. Um, there are some others but I'm just trying to think off the top of my m. Head what they are. If they come to me before the end of the conversation, I'll, I'll shout.

Speaker A: Okay, fair enough. Um, and so I suppose the big question, what is something you wish you'd known about sales earlier in your career?

Speaker B: You know that going right back to what we're saying at the start, I, I don't, I didn't really appreciate the career that, the career you could have in, in sales. My initial perception would have been that it's a bit of a short term, uh, you get some deals, where does that take you? And if you genuinely have a career in sales and you commit a number of years to it, the opportunities you can have are phenomenal. The businesses you can work for, the roles you can get, the career progression you can get, the friends you make, the people you meet. And a lot of people, I mean my wife and I were in our business, I met my wife in a sales job. Um, and a lot of my wife and a lot of my friends are people I've met through sales job. Unless some them of the most loyal, funniest people you could ever meet. So um, that doesn't come out. People don't, people don't pick that out from sales. And I don't think you would look at sales if you were 20 or 16 or whatever age it is you're making those decisions and think I could be winning a 50 million pound customer, I could be running 100 million pound customer. I can manage these massive relationships. It's nothing about pitching, pitching getting a deal. It's about networking and figuring out strategic implications and joining the dots and nudging people along long. Um, and, and that's just missing people don't, we don't, we don't sell selling in, in that way. There's so many opportunities for careers of all sorts of types that ah, um, that people don't understand and if you don't get into it, you don't get to see those opportunities. So I, I would say today, even today I think there are some fantastic opportunities in, in sales. We probably need to do more to promote them.

Speaker A: Yep, I think that's fair. So if, if people listening remember just one thing from this conversation, what would you want it to be?

Speaker B: Just just one thing. Um, just just one thing. Maybe. Is it maybe, uh, is think about, think about how you're helping people with selling. So it goes back to you. Question questions. How do you ask questions of customers? Uh, how do you figure out what they really need? How do you. And then how do you help them? How do you tailor your solution to helping them? So if you frame your sales activity through how can you help people, how can you make a difference to their world, then you're probably going to be more successful and most likely going to enjoy it much more.

Speaker A: More. That's brilliant. Um, Martin, thank you so much, uh, for joining us today. For everyone listening, go and follow Martin on LinkedIn if you haven't already. Um, that's it for today's episode of what I Wish I'd Known About Sales. Don't forget to share this with the rep on your team who really needs to hear it. Um, thanks for joining us today. Great.

Speaker B: Thank you. Goodbye, everyone.